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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Talk about these geopolitical issues.

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Speaker 3: You said, I was joined on set here on the

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Speaker 3: Pulse with Vice President former Vice President Mike Pence.

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Speaker 2: We thank you so much for your time. Welcome to London.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for having me on. It's a thrill

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Speaker 2: to have you well.

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Speaker 3: As my colleague Francine just said, it's a big day

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Speaker 3: in Washington today. We have crown friends Mohammed ben Solman

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Speaker 3: coming and visiting President Donald Trump as well. This is

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Speaker 3: a relationship that's really deepened over the last couple of years,

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Speaker 3: and certainly since his trip to May, to riot in

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Speaker 3: May as well. What do you make of that deepening

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Speaker 3: alliance between the United States and the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: You would think that these are two places.

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Speaker 3: That would be in competition when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: oil markets, when it comes to defense, we're seeing the opposite.

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Speaker 1: What do you think, well, I think it's important to

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Speaker 1: remember the very first days of our administration back in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, President Trump's first the international trip was a

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Speaker 1: conference of Arab nations in Ryant. From very early on,

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Speaker 1: we sense that it was important to begin not just

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Speaker 1: with Saudi Arabia, but to reach out to Arab countries,

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Speaker 1: even while we stood without apology for our most cherished

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Speaker 1: ally Israel. I mean, we moved the American embassy to Jerusalem,

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Speaker 1: we recognized the goal on heights. Many said that would

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Speaker 1: be inconsistent with peace in the region, But what they

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Speaker 1: forgot was that President Trump, in our four years together

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Speaker 1: aggressively reached out to Arab nations at the same time

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Speaker 1: we isolated Iran, which is a leading state sponsor of

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Speaker 1: terrorism in the region, and at the end of our

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Speaker 1: four years signed to the abraham of Courts. And my

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Speaker 1: hope is as MBS comes to the White House today

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Speaker 1: that in addition to the other issues that I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we'll be discussed from a standpoint of AI and energy

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Speaker 1: and others, is I am hopeful the President will engage

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Speaker 1: the Crown prints very directly on the need for Saudi

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Speaker 1: Arabia to lead other nations into an expansion of the

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Speaker 1: abraham A Courds.

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Speaker 3: Well, to your point, that's the keyp pillar of one

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Speaker 3: of the successes in the first administration under under Donald Trump.

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Speaker 3: You mentioned that key piece of the kind ofwithstanding support

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Speaker 3: for Israel. Donald Trump talking earlier this week about actually

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Speaker 3: selling f thirty five fighter jets to Saudi Arabia. As

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Speaker 3: you know, this has been a contentious issue, especially among

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Speaker 3: several of the Middle Eastern allies there. Do you think

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Speaker 3: this is going to have ripwull effects? If you sell

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Speaker 3: F thirty five jets to Saudi Arabia, are more going

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Speaker 3: to be knocking more other nations going to be knocking

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Speaker 3: at America's store?

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Speaker 2: And is that a good thing?

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Speaker 1: Well, the F thirty five is our most advanced aircraft

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Speaker 1: stealth technology, and I'm very confident that as the President

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Speaker 1: gives consideration to the sale of F thirty five 'sf

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Speaker 1: to Saudi Arabia or any other country that will put

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Speaker 1: the interest of America first. It's extremely important in any

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Speaker 1: sale that we ensure that technology does not make its

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Speaker 1: way into China's hands or into hands of other adversarial nations.

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Speaker 1: And so I have concerns about the sale of F

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Speaker 1: thirty five's to Saudi Arabia or any nation that could

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Speaker 1: not assure the United States that technology and the great

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Speaker 1: advancements that we made with the F thirty five don't

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Speaker 1: fall into the hands of nations that are hostile to

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Speaker 1: our interests.

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Speaker 2: You're not alone in those concerns.

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Speaker 3: Have you seen this before in your time as Vice president,

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Speaker 3: the sale of this high technology one of America's finest

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Speaker 3: the countries that maybe don't rise to the ranks of

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Speaker 3: some of the other closer allies.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think one of the things that our administration

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Speaker 1: did in our four years was recognized that China is

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Speaker 1: the greatest economic and strategic threat facing the United States,

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Speaker 1: and we imposed historic tariffs on China. We brought China

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Speaker 1: to the table for the Phase one trade deal, which

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Speaker 1: you may remember from January of twenty twenty. But I

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Speaker 1: have concerns with the administration allowing TikTok to continue to

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Speaker 1: operate despite the fact that Congress and the previous administration

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Speaker 1: passed the law saying it must be sold or banned

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Speaker 1: within a set period of time, and the recent arrangement

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Speaker 1: to allow Navidia to sell significant chip technology to China

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Speaker 1: to simply an exchange for a revenue sharing agreement with

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Speaker 1: the United States. I think it's absolutely essential that we

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Speaker 1: continue to put the security of the United States and

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Speaker 1: our ability to defend our interest and our treaty allies

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Speaker 1: across the region. As China continues its military provocations and

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Speaker 1: its extraordinary investments in its own technology, and that would

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Speaker 1: be my concern with any weapons sailed any country around

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 3: Well, Vice Presidents continue our tour around the world and

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Speaker 3: talk there about China and the relationship, the deepening relationship

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Speaker 3: it seems with normally Russia, but India as well.

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Speaker 2: Earlier this year, we.

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Speaker 3: Had images of Vladimir Putin, Arendromodi and xijingping arm in

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Speaker 3: arm at the Shanghai Cooperation Organization. I was in Washington

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Speaker 3: at the time, and they really caused shock waves in

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Speaker 3: terms of this axis that you are seeing on the

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Speaker 3: other side of the ocean, on the other side of

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Speaker 3: the Pacific. Do you feel like those images, as they

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Speaker 3: were interpreted at the time, showed that the United States

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Speaker 3: is losing its dominance on the world stage.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think there's no question that nature of whoors

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Speaker 1: a vacuum, and that's equally true on the world stage.

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Speaker 1: And the previous administration in so many ways protected weakness

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Speaker 1: on the world stage. The disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. The

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Speaker 1: Biden administration actually after inflation, actually cut military spending in

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Speaker 1: the United States, and particularly after Afghanistan, we saw Russia

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Speaker 1: launch its brutal and unprovoked invasion into Ukraine.

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Speaker 2: We saw Hamas.

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Speaker 1: Surge across the borders of Gaza with the most brutal

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Speaker 1: assault on the Jewish people since the Holocaust, and we've

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Speaker 1: seen China continue its military provocations across the Asia Pacific.

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Speaker 1: When we were in office, we spoke about what the

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Speaker 1: new Trump administration speaks about, and that is peace through strength.

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Speaker 1: And I think the relationship between the United States and

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Speaker 1: our allies across the free world has never been more important,

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Speaker 1: and trade is a part of that. I would hasten

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Speaker 1: to add that I believe in free trade with free nations,

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Speaker 1: and the President's unilateral tariffs imposed on friend and foe alike,

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Speaker 1: I think have been contrary to the long term interests

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Speaker 1: and prosperity WES. We ought to be working always to

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Speaker 1: lower trade barriers and lower non tariff barriers and subsidies.

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Speaker 1: That's what we did during our four years. We use

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Speaker 1: tariffs and the threat of tariffs to negotiate to open markets.

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Speaker 1: What we're seeing in this new Trump administration is the

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Speaker 1: use of broad based tariffs that I think ultimately harm

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Speaker 1: US consumers, harm growth, but also more profoundly, they really

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Speaker 1: threatened to fray longstanding relationships in the free world at

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Speaker 1: just the time that we need them stronger than ever before.

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Speaker 3: Well, Vice President, they're also being used as a mechanism

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Speaker 3: not only to encourage free trade, but also to add

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Speaker 3: pressure on countries like India, like Brazil that are perhaps

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Speaker 3: helping and fuel fueling some of the goals in China

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Speaker 3: and Russia as well, especially when it comes to the

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Speaker 3: United States' relationship and defending or at least helping support

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Speaker 3: the fight for or the war Ukrainian's efforts and against

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Speaker 3: the war from Russia. Talk to us a little bit

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Speaker 3: about that relationship and that dynamic when it comes to

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Speaker 3: the European Union and the UK as well. Historically Europe

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Speaker 3: and the United States have been arm in arm, but

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Speaker 3: when it has come to this conflict, at least in

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Speaker 3: the second Trump administration, we do seem to be seeing

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Speaker 3: wobbles in that steadfast defense. Donald Trump has on the

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Speaker 3: campaign trail and of course in this year, promised and

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Speaker 3: assured the global community there would not only be a ceasefire,

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Speaker 3: but a lasting agreement. Based on his friendship with Vladimir Putin.

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Speaker 3: Why has that not come to fruition in your minds?

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Speaker 1: Well, Well, first off, I've been a steadfast supporter of

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Speaker 1: US military assistance to Ukraine. I mean, Russia's unprovoked invasion

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Speaker 1: has cost hundreds of thousands of lives, and America is

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Speaker 1: the leader of the free world, and it's absolutely essential

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Speaker 1: that we continue to uphold the principle that we will

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Speaker 1: not allow authoritarian regimes to redraw international lines by force.

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Speaker 1: A century ago, we looked the other way as authoritarian

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Speaker 1: regimes marched across Europe and the world inherited the whirlwind

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Speaker 1: and the tragedy of World War Two, and so I

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Speaker 1: think it's important the United States continue to stay firm.

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Speaker 1: I'm pleased the Trump administration has gotten to a better

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Speaker 1: place after, as you said, stops and starts on support

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Speaker 1: for Ukraine. But I do think the time has come

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Speaker 1: for the United States Senate to put strong secondary sanctions

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Speaker 1: on President Trump's desk, Sanctions on countries that are purchasing

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Speaker 1: energy from Russia, that are literally, through those purchases, they're

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Speaker 1: fueling the Russian war machine. I called on that this summer,

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Speaker 1: and frankly, I was encouraged that just a few days

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Speaker 1: ago President Trump said that he was okay with the

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Speaker 1: secondary s actions bill. Senator Lindsay Graham authored, I think

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Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin will not stop until he is stopped. The

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Speaker 1: Ukrainian military has fought bravely. The European community, with strong

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Speaker 1: leadership from the UK and America, have provided support. But

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I think isolating Russia

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Speaker 1: economically with those secondary sanctions could well be the key

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Speaker 1: to moving us toward a peaceful settlement and a just

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Speaker 1: and lasting peace.

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Speaker 3: Vice President, you talk about these secondary sanctions Europe. The

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Speaker 3: EU has only recently put sanctions on Russia. There's still

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Speaker 3: parts of the EU that are importing that kind of energy.

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Speaker 3: Does America need Europe to hold Russia accountable? Can America

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Speaker 3: go at it alone? That's the narrative that Donald Trump

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Speaker 3: has taken when it comes to his negotiations at the

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Speaker 3: Munich Security Conference at NATO.

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Speaker 2: Can America do it alone?

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, in my first trip to Europe in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, as Vice President said, America first does not

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Speaker 1: mean America alone. It simply means America embracing our first

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Speaker 1: obligations at home and secondly, embracing our role as leader

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Speaker 1: of the free world. And I believe during our four

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Speaker 1: years we actually strengthened our alliances across NATO. Before we

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Speaker 1: left office, at the end of four years, our NATO

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Speaker 1: allies were investing one hundred and forty billion dollars in

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Speaker 1: our common defense that had not been invested before. More

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Speaker 1: than two thirds were now living up to the commitment

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Speaker 1: we've made to our common defense. I think the ability

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Speaker 1: the European community has had to support Ukraine against this

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Speaker 1: Russian invasion was greatly enhanced by those years that we

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Speaker 1: strengthened NATO. But look at a time that we see

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Speaker 1: authoritarian regimes rising and increasing their provocations, whether it be

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Speaker 1: be Russia or whether it be China or Iran, as

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Speaker 1: they languish quietly after after their the America taking down

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Speaker 1: their nuclear program and Israel taking the fight directly to them,

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Speaker 1: I think now more than ever, we need to bring

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Speaker 1: together the free world say that we're going to stand

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Speaker 1: for our principles, defend our interests, and we'll continue to

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Speaker 1: call for that.

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Speaker 3: All right, Vice President Mike Pence, we thank you so

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Speaker 3: much for your time.

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Speaker 2: A true tour around the world,