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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to Coast to Coast AM. I'm your host

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Speaker 2: this evening. My name is rich Bara, and Mark Gober

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Speaker 2: is our guest. And before the break, I was starting

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Speaker 2: to ask him about the Big Bang theory. And let's

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Speaker 2: start from the beginning with the Big Bank theory. Let's

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Speaker 2: start back before it was the Big Bang theory. Because

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Speaker 2: this is a hard one for me to get my

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Speaker 2: brain around. My I went to community college, you went

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Speaker 2: to Princeton, So you're gonna have to really, you're gonna

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Speaker 2: have to like talk to me like I'm a six

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Speaker 2: year old here. What before we question with the Big

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Speaker 2: Bang theory, why we should question it is what is

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Speaker 2: the common Big Bang theory philosophy.

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Speaker 3: The common idea is that about thirteen point eight billion

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Speaker 3: years ago, so unimaginably long ago, there was an event

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Speaker 3: that started the universe that we currently live in, and

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Speaker 3: this is known as the Big Bang. And there was

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Speaker 3: basically a massive explosion in some very very far away place,

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Speaker 3: and it led to these pieces of matter to start

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Speaker 3: interacting with each other and bump into each other. And

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Speaker 3: that leads us to the current mainstream cosmological model where

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Speaker 3: you have all these various galaxies and solar systems and

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Speaker 3: Earth revolving around the Sun with other planets and so forth.

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Speaker 3: But it all started with the Big Bang. That's the idea.

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Speaker 3: And you know I say that now, but it's amazing

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Speaker 3: how deeply embedded that theory is in mainstream thinking and

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Speaker 3: mainstream academia. We almost take it for granted that it's

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Speaker 3: basically true, when in fact it's really just a theory

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Speaker 3: about something that we really cannot validate.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think we almost have more evidence of a multiverse

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Speaker 2: than we do the Big Bang theory.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I want to give an analogy here because I think

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Speaker 3: what happens in cosmology and many other areas of life

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Speaker 3: is that we run into errors in logic and errors

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Speaker 3: in thinking where we observe data and then we jump

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Speaker 3: to conclusions about what caused it.

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Speaker 4: Let me give you a very simple example.

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Speaker 3: It's true that when it rains, the grass outside will

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Speaker 3: be wet, but it's problematic to say I observe grass,

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Speaker 3: therefore it rained. If you see what I mean, Because

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Speaker 3: sprinkler systems or do or children pouring buckets of water

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Speaker 3: that can cause wet grass. But what happens is in

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Speaker 3: science in many other areas, we observe things and then

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Speaker 3: we conclude, oh, well, it fits in the model that

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Speaker 3: it rained, and then we force fit all the new

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Speaker 3: data into the idea that it rained, and we ignore

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Speaker 3: other possibilities.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so for the Big Bang theory, it's there's some

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Speaker 2: that say it just happened, or there's some that use

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Speaker 2: what I touched on earlier, the unmoved mover theory. What

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Speaker 2: do you think about those two notions of the Big

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Speaker 2: Bang theory?

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Speaker 4: I would say I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't think we know enough to be able to

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Speaker 3: say with certainty how the universe actually started. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: there are some big problems, especially with the Big Bang theory,

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Speaker 3: because what happens is scientists basically have to plug in

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Speaker 3: things in order for their theory to work.

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Speaker 4: I'll give an example. According to the Big Bang theory.

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Speaker 3: There was rapid expansion at the very beginning thirteen point

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Speaker 3: eight billion years ago. It's known as inflation this expansion,

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Speaker 3: and in order for that to have occurred, the scientists

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Speaker 3: have theorized a particle called an inflaton that must have

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Speaker 3: existed to cause this rapid inflation. However, no one has

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Speaker 3: ever found an infloton particle. Okay, and yet this is

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Speaker 3: a very important part of the Big Bang theory, and

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Speaker 3: that's just one idea where it.

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Speaker 2: Falls apart without that then or it doesn't hold up exactly.

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Speaker 3: So this is known as a reification fallacy, where you

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Speaker 3: speak about an abstraction as if it's real, and you

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Speaker 3: speak about it over and over again, but you don't

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Speaker 3: acknowledge that maybe this thing doesn't even exist.

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Speaker 2: Oh so, okay, now this is getting us into sort

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Speaker 2: of your take on all of this. So where we

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Speaker 2: start with you and maybe maybe we're all right to

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Speaker 2: question things, because it sounds like when you said as

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Speaker 2: you said you stated at the begin the show, you

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Speaker 2: kind of started off with kind of a you know

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Speaker 2: things are here because they're here, and you kind of

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Speaker 2: came from an atheist sort of point of view. But

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Speaker 2: then you started realizing, well, not only does that seem

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Speaker 2: like there's something to it, but there is some science

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Speaker 2: to back some of it up. But there's also science

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Speaker 2: that doesn't back up some of the science or some

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Speaker 2: of the academia.

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Speaker 3: Right absolutely, and when we're talking about the cosmos, this

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Speaker 3: is really important because it's it's where we live, this

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Speaker 3: is what we inhabit.

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Speaker 4: It's really fundamental to science.

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Speaker 3: And yet there are two major things I want to

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Speaker 3: make sure you and your audience are aware of because

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Speaker 3: this was like an.

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Speaker 4: AHA moment for me.

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Speaker 3: Number One, mainstream cosmology posits currently that ninety six percent

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Speaker 3: of the universe is dark matter and dark energy, meaning

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Speaker 3: we only understand what four percent of the universe is

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Speaker 3: and the rest is this ninety six percent.

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Speaker 4: That's a great mystery.

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Speaker 3: Dark matter, which is a big part of that ninety

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Speaker 3: six percent, has been falsified by an astrophysicist named Pavel

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Speaker 3: Krupa at the University of Bonn in Germany with his colleagues.

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Speaker 3: They've looked at it and and they say the observations

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Speaker 3: that we would expect with dark matter are not there.

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Speaker 3: It's been falsified. So it just shows you we have

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Speaker 3: a bit of a house of cards. That's point number one.

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Speaker 3: Point number two is if you take the biggest theories

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Speaker 3: in modern physics, which is Einstein's relativity and the other

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Speaker 3: one is quantum mechanics, these are the leading theories. The

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Speaker 3: problem is that when you combine them together metaphorically speaking,

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Speaker 3: the equations blow up. They don't work together, meaning we

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Speaker 3: don't have a unified theory of physics, no theory of everything.

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Speaker 3: So we've got a big problem here. When people say

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Speaker 3: to me, Mark, why are you questioning so much? We

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Speaker 3: can explain things so well to me, it's well, grant

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Speaker 3: me these miracles of dark matter and dark energy and

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Speaker 3: no unified theory, and then we'll try to explain everything.

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Speaker 3: So the fundamentals, the foundations of physics and cosmology are

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Speaker 3: objectively broken and we have to start from there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, did we start too big when we start with

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Speaker 2: the everything was created like this? Because it doesn't. It's

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Speaker 2: really hard to understand something like a universe that is

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Speaker 2: continually expanding into what what's on the other side? How

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Speaker 2: do we how do we justify that?

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Speaker 3: That's a great question, and what I would ask you Riches,

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Speaker 3: has anyone observed this expansion?

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Speaker 2: Well? Yeah, I mean, how how have we said?

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Speaker 4: How do we?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it seems like that's a pretty universally accepted thought,

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Speaker 2: But yeah, where is the edge? And what if it's expanding?

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Speaker 2: It's constantly getting bigger, and I mean, we can I

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Speaker 2: get that the universe is expansive beyond our ability to

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Speaker 2: figure it out, but expanding into what and who's proven

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Speaker 2: this and why do we think it's expanding.

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Speaker 4: It's a great point.

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Speaker 3: What I found is that science works with inference on

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Speaker 3: top of inference on top of inference, but they don't

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Speaker 3: tell us that these are inferences. They're put forth as

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Speaker 3: much more definitive than they actually are.

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Speaker 4: I would argue that there's a lot of data.

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Speaker 3: Which scientists have fit into a model that leads to

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Speaker 3: expansion and a big bang and moving and an expanding universe.

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Speaker 3: But that's just way to explain the observations. What if

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Speaker 3: none of that is actually true because they're all inferences

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Speaker 3: and no one has ever directly observed that.

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Speaker 1: So in your in.

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Speaker 2: Your travels, that whiteboard that we see in like a

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Speaker 2: beautiful mind where people are drawn all those equations, you're

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Speaker 2: one of those guys. You've done that to disprove things.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's more I try to find the holes. I'm

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Speaker 3: more interested in falsifying models than I am in saying

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Speaker 3: I know what is true, and they're just thanked exercises,

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Speaker 3: because that ends up leaving us in a place where

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Speaker 3: we say this model they told us, we can prove

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Speaker 3: that's not true, but we're not actually sure what is true.

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Speaker 3: So that's where I'm in this space of I don't know.

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Speaker 3: But all you need is for one thing to be

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Speaker 3: untrue about a model in order to falsify it.

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Speaker 4: For example, let's say there's.

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Speaker 3: A law out there that says all swans are white,

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Speaker 3: and you and I rich we go around the world

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Speaker 3: with our colleagues and we find a million white swans

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Speaker 3: and one day we find a single black swan that

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Speaker 3: has violated the law. The law said all swans are white.

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Speaker 3: If there's a single anomaly, then the model needs to

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Speaker 3: change in order to accommodate it. So I love to

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Speaker 3: focus on those anomalies, which often scientists like to sweep

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Speaker 3: under the rug.

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Speaker 2: So if the big Bang theory is, let's just say

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Speaker 2: that that we were blowing a hole in that, well,

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Speaker 2: then how did we get here?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this is that's the big question.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, but I will point to something that

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Speaker 3: they might give us a hint. There's something known as

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Speaker 3: the cosmic microwave background, and this is something your audience

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Speaker 3: can look up.

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Speaker 4: It's very famous. There was a Nobel Prize awarded to it.

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Speaker 3: And this is background radiation that many physicists attribute to

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Speaker 3: the Big Bang. They say this is radiation that came

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Speaker 3: from something thirteen point eight billion years ago. The issue

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Speaker 3: is that there are some anomalies in this cosmic microwave

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Speaker 3: background that actually point toward Earth, and some scientists have

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Speaker 3: called this the axis of evil, which is an interesting

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Speaker 3: way of putting it. One way this has been interpreted,

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Speaker 3: if you look at this anomaly seriously, is that maybe

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Speaker 3: Earth occupies a much more central place in the cosmos,

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Speaker 3: rather than just being a random ball in a big universe.

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Speaker 3: Maybe Earth is more special than we've been told. And

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Speaker 3: that goes against what's known as the Copernican principle, which

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Speaker 3: is baked into much of our science, which says we

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Speaker 3: don't occupy a special place in the cosmos, and yet

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Speaker 3: there are these little anomalies that suggest, hmm, maybe we do.

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Speaker 3: And that doesn't answer your question directly, Rich about how

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Speaker 3: do we get here, but it might point us into

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Speaker 3: new ideas.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we're here for a reason.

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Speaker 3: It might come to that right exactly, which a lot

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Speaker 3: of science doesn't like to think about.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I think that's you know. I grew up.

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Speaker 2: I grew up Catholic, and it was interesting when I

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Speaker 2: was putting this together. My wife is a theology master.

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Speaker 2: She went to seminary school. She has her master's degree

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Speaker 2: in theology. So she was really interested in you in

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Speaker 2: particular because of your background, because I don't think she

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Speaker 2: really believes anything like reincarnation or the possibility of remote

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Speaker 2: viewing or psychics, because you know, she can feels like

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Speaker 2: that can all be explained away except for things that

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Speaker 2: are divine. And then I think that comes with a

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Speaker 2: lot of our upbringing, where we're like, well, we have

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Speaker 2: to be here for a reason. We have to be

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Speaker 2: here for call it what you will. God's God has

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Speaker 2: a purpose in the idea that you exist just as

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Speaker 2: a human being. Seems like the odds are against that happening,

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Speaker 2: just a human being happening. I remember who was it.

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Speaker 2: It was Jeff Corwin, who I had in the studio

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Speaker 2: one time, who said, yeah, it's almost like that a

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Speaker 2: human being existing is almost like saying you could go

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Speaker 2: to the bottom of the ocean and shake a bunch

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Speaker 2: of rocks together for like thirty thousand years and it

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Speaker 2: turns into a Rolex watch, Like that's more likely to

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Speaker 2: happen than a human being born. So do you even

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Speaker 2: start with just even just how humans are put together.

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Speaker 4: Well, I used to be in that camp.

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Speaker 3: I used to believe that life is fundamentally random and

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Speaker 3: meaningless and if we want to try to attribute meaning

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Speaker 3: to it, we're just rationalizing a very nihil stick reality

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Speaker 3: that we have to just get over it. But I

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Speaker 3: do think there is evidence that we don't live in

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Speaker 3: a random and meaningless universe, and things like remote viewing,

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Speaker 3: which has been validated by the US government. There are

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Speaker 3: declassified documents that explicitly say remote viewing is a real phenomenon.

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Speaker 4: That's in my book, An End to Upside Dow.

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking that's just one example out of many, and

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Speaker 3: all of this points to the idea that our consciousness

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Speaker 3: is beyond the bodies. Do we start to get into

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Speaker 3: the realm of maybe there's a soul, maybe there's something

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Speaker 3: that connects all of us in a higher intelligence god,

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Speaker 3: those sorts of things, and it directly counters this notion

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Speaker 3: of a random and meaningless universe, which also goes against

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Speaker 3: this random and meaningless Big Bang idea.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting, like you can you can almost do the

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Speaker 2: science to say, yeah, that the random Big Bang theory

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Speaker 2: is almost like a science fiction writer came up with

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Speaker 2: something and we all just said, yeah, that's it. But

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Speaker 2: it's almost like you can't scientifically disprove that we have

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Speaker 2: a soul. It almost seems like there's more evidence that

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Speaker 2: there's So there's something greater than us. There's some kind

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Speaker 2: of creative for something that is at least nudging this,

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Speaker 2: this great experiment called humanity in some kind of direction,

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Speaker 2: right something.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think the reason that scientists should be

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Speaker 3: open to this idea is that they will admit they

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Speaker 3: do not understand human consciousness. So that consciousness refers to

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Speaker 3: our capacity for experience.

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Speaker 4: We all have it right now.

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Speaker 3: It's the part of us that's experiencing. So we know

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Speaker 3: we have it, but we can't touch it, we can't

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Speaker 3: point to it. It's abstract, whereas the physical body we

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Speaker 3: can point to, the brain we can point to it's

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Speaker 3: a physical structure. This is known as the hard problem

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Speaker 3: of consciousness, basically, which is, how could something non physical

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Speaker 3: and abstract like our consciousness come out of something physical

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Speaker 3: like a brain?

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: And the answer is, well, maybe it doesn't come out

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Speaker 3: of the brain. Maybe we just believe it does because

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Speaker 3: we know there are correlations between what happens in the

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Speaker 3: brain and what happens to our consciousness. But as we

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Speaker 3: all know, correlation doesn't necessarily mean causation. And maybe our

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Speaker 3: brain's like an antenna or a filtering mechanism, and we

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Speaker 3: are bringing in the soul to the body somehow.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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Speaker 1: one am Eastern, and go to Coast tocoastam dot com

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Speaker 1: for more