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Speaker 1: Hmm, what alleging networks of child abuse that don't really

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Speaker 1: exist my entire world now, Jesus Christ, that was a

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Speaker 1: bad introduction. Um, thank you, Sophie, thank you for your

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Speaker 1: relentless positivity. Uh, this is behind the Bastards. I'm Robert

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Speaker 1: Evans and my guest today is my my friend and colleague,

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Speaker 1: Jake Hanrahan. Jake, how you doing man good? Thanks to me,

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Speaker 1: Thank you having me on again. Yeah, and you, Jake,

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Speaker 1: you have a podcast now, another podcast. You've always had

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Speaker 1: a podcast, another one, Yeah, only doing Q Clearance. Sophie's

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Speaker 1: been hoping. We've moved me with a podcast about Q

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Speaker 1: and On uh, and about you know, the the searching

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Speaker 1: for the person or persons behind it, right, Yeah, trying

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Speaker 1: to trying to kind of lay out for people that

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Speaker 1: are not one familiar as well. Like I kind of

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Speaker 1: realized that a lot of the Q and On media

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Speaker 1: is refocused on either like for Q and On people,

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Speaker 1: or it's kind of for the community. They're research and

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to bring everybody together to be like,

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Speaker 1: let's make everyone understand it. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: And so far, so good, you know, Jake, I I

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Speaker 1: admire what you're doing. I think it's important and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to help you out. And the way I wanted

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Speaker 1: to help you out was by lending a bit of

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Speaker 1: historical context because what we have with Q and On,

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's fair to say, in brief, is

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Speaker 1: like a massive, almost now international delusion about networks of

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Speaker 1: Satanic child murderers and traffickers. Right, M have you figured

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Speaker 1: it out yet, Jake? Q and On is not is

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Speaker 1: not the first time this happened. And today, Jake, we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the Satanic panic. Okay. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: have guessed that one man. Um No, it's interesting, it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: it's perfect for me. Thank you so much. I just

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Speaker 1: can't believe you haven't listened to episode two of Q

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Speaker 1: Clearance where we talk about syntantic this, this is it's

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Speaker 1: it was enormous. I don't I didn't know most of

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Speaker 1: this stuff when I started reading about it. It's a

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Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. And uh, you're gonna hate this episode. I

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Speaker 1: hated writing it. Um. It involved a lot of reading lurid,

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Speaker 1: lengthy stories of child molestation that never happened, but that

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Speaker 1: children were convinced had happened. To them, which is somehow yeah,

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Speaker 1: more disturbing almost than actual child molestation, like the idea

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Speaker 1: that like a kid, people convincing them it happened to them, right, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like why would you make someone feel the worst thing

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Speaker 1: ever if they didn't actually feel it. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: completely fucked. I can't believe this is what you picked for, Jake.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Yeah, we're gonna talk about some fun ship.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go dungeons and dragons. We're gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: the West Memphis three. We're gonna talk about the mcmarh

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Speaker 1: in preschool scandal. It's gonna be fucking terrible. Um. But

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Speaker 1: first we're going to go back in time a little bit, Jake,

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Speaker 1: because the ideological soil that Q and on and the

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Speaker 1: Satanic Panic grew in didn't start with either of those things.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about A hundred and seventy seven A

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Speaker 1: D or c E or whatever we're supposed to say Europe.

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Speaker 1: Let's let's let's talk about that. This is about you know,

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Speaker 1: A hundred seventy is about a century or so before

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Speaker 1: Emperor Constantine was like, you know, brought Christianity to the

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Speaker 1: Roman Empire and stuff. So things are still pretty pagan

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Speaker 1: in Roman society, but Christianity exists and the Pagans do

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Speaker 1: not like it. They've got these like weird people, um,

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Speaker 1: who are kind of on the fringes of society, and

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Speaker 1: they start making up ship about them. So in the

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Speaker 1: city of Lyon in modern day France, rumors started spreading

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Speaker 1: that members of the Christian community there were secretly raping

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Speaker 1: and cannibalizing their own children. Angry and probably drunken, mobs

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Speaker 1: of pagan Romans chased the Christian community out of their homes,

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Speaker 1: beat them, stone them, and tortured their households slaves until

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Speaker 1: the slaves admitted that their masters had been eating and

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Speaker 1: molesting babies. With confessions in hand, the mob than massacred

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Speaker 1: the entire Christian community of Leon. So like when you're

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Speaker 1: it was cool, basically rads. So that massacre was an

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Speaker 1: example of what anthropologists call demonology. So not demonology, demon

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Speaker 1: o I O G y um. And Yeah, the authors

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Speaker 1: of Satan's Silence, which is have you read that book,

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Speaker 1: It's fucking Satan Silence. Yeah, it's really good, the defining

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Speaker 1: work of the Satanic Panic era, and the authors of

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Speaker 1: that book define demonology as the narrative specific to every

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Speaker 1: culture that identifies the ultimate evil threatening the group. During

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Speaker 1: periods of social turmoil and moral crisis, societal preoccupation with

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Speaker 1: its demonology intensifies. So in Pagan Rome, the ultimate evil

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Speaker 1: was like the the ultimate outsiders. The Christians at this point,

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Speaker 1: like the people saying, now there's only one got right,

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Speaker 1: So they get demonized and people start telling stories of

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Speaker 1: about the molesting and murdering children. Now, once Christianity became

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Speaker 1: the dominant religion in Europe, its adherents found their own

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Speaker 1: evil to oppress in the way that they've once been oppressed.

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Speaker 1: In the twelfth century, a myth began to spread across

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Speaker 1: the English countryside, initially about Jewish rabbis murdering Christian babies.

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Speaker 1: That's quickly spread all over Europe, and you start having

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Speaker 1: this like it's still around yeah, yeah, they of course, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're always yeah, this kind it's kind of like it

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Speaker 1: was an early meme and it's spread that way around Europe,

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Speaker 1: and like pamphlets and even like you can still find

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Speaker 1: churches in Europe that, like in stained glass reliefs will

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Speaker 1: have like images of what's called the blood libel rabbi's

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Speaker 1: murdering Christian babies to make mods that. Yeah, um, and

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Speaker 1: it's the same kind of thing, right, myths that this

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Speaker 1: this group of social outsiders is gathering up and murdering

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Speaker 1: and probably molesting children. Um. And Christians like killed so

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Speaker 1: many Jews during this period as a result of the

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Speaker 1: spread of this myth that later during the Reformation, there

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Speaker 1: weren't like any Jewish people left in a lot of communities,

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Speaker 1: so they had to find a new ultimate evil inside

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Speaker 1: their community to go after. And this is where we

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Speaker 1: get the witch hunts, right like that everybody knows vaguely

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Speaker 1: the story, and these two they took different forms over

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Speaker 1: the centuries, but the gist of the threat was always

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Speaker 1: the same. Satan is real, and he's trying to destroy

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Speaker 1: our community via some member on the fringe of our

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Speaker 1: community who's working with the devil, right Like, that's the

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Speaker 1: the idea, and it happens a bunch of times. It

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Speaker 1: happens in Europe, it happens obviously in the United States.

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Speaker 1: You get the Salem witch trials, and you have different

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Speaker 1: groups of people targeted. Right. Sometimes it's midwife. Sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: just like members of the community like in Salem, who

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Speaker 1: start accusing each other of things. Um, and kind of

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Speaker 1: one of the things that always marks witch hunts is

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Speaker 1: that like there may be initially a specific group that's targeted,

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Speaker 1: but once a real good witch hunt gets going, pretty

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Speaker 1: much everyone winds up accusing everybody, right, Like that's what

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Speaker 1: we do. Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading the Weird Story

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Speaker 1: where like a guy like pronounced something like differently to

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Speaker 1: the rest of the town and they were just like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's a witch exactly. You know, people go fucking it

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Speaker 1: is one of those things. You know, I'm a I'm

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Speaker 1: a pretty staunch fan of the concept of democracy, um,

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Speaker 1: but man, reading too much about witch hunts makes you like, we're, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they voted, yeah yeah, drowning. Um. Yeah. So once the

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Speaker 1: United States became a thing, it showed a marked talent

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Speaker 1: for witch hunts. And I have to say, like, y'all

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Speaker 1: over in Europe and ship can do some pretty good

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Speaker 1: witch hunts, but the USA, like, who, we are good

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Speaker 1: at mass murdering each other over rumors of the devil? Um, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're fucking great at it. And of course, like we

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Speaker 1: you know, Jewish people got blamed for a variety of things,

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Speaker 1: but also Catholics um. During the eighteen thirties and forties,

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Speaker 1: Protestants in America were so frightened of Catholics that rumors

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Speaker 1: started to spread about nuns consorting with the devil and

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Speaker 1: Moleste murder ring a bunch of little kids. And the

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Speaker 1: quote again from Satan's Silence here, because this is some

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Speaker 1: ship that sounds exactly like the ship happening now. Several

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Speaker 1: books were written by women claiming to be x Nuns

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Speaker 1: who had escaped from convents where they witnessed orgies, torture,

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Speaker 1: witchcraft in the slaughter of infants. One account was so

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Speaker 1: popular that in the years before the Civil War, it's

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Speaker 1: sales were surpassed only by Uncle Tom's cabin. During the

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Speaker 1: same period, X Nuns and Priest real or Famed made

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Speaker 1: a handsome living touring the country and testifying about the

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Speaker 1: slaughter of innocence at the hands of Mother's superior and bishops.

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Speaker 1: It's the same fucking thing, Like they're going around and

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Speaker 1: making money off it. You've got like fucking pre medic

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Speaker 1: types in eighteen forty. Yeah, it's kind of funny though.

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Speaker 1: It's like later the Catholics did do a lot of

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Speaker 1: the kids, but oh absolutely, but not the Devil's yeah no,

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, you have to assume that some of

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Speaker 1: this started from like well, yeah, a bunch of preestar

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Speaker 1: molested kids, right, just throwing the devil as well, Like

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Speaker 1: why not they eating them as well? Yeah, now they're

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Speaker 1: eating them yeah my peoples. Man. Yeah. So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of the backstory of this really weirdly consistent thing that

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Speaker 1: humans do, which is accused groups on the margins of

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Speaker 1: murdering and molesting children. Right, It's like very consistent that

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Speaker 1: it's always like, if you're going to really demonize a group,

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Speaker 1: you accuse them of going after little kids. Um, and

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Speaker 1: it's it goes back way more than a thousand years.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like the Oats and the Evil, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's the worst thing you can do. Like I'm

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Speaker 1: a kid, let's go with that. Yeah, let's fucking go

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Speaker 1: with that. Um. Now, we're gonna have to cover a

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Speaker 1: lot of other backstory in the United States before we

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Speaker 1: actually get to the Satanic Panic because the reason that

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Speaker 1: the Satanic Panic was able to get so bad, and

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Speaker 1: the reason that like, like one of the things you

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Speaker 1: have with the Satanic Panic is you have all of

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Speaker 1: these like lurid stories of devil worship and these kids

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Speaker 1: testifying that they've been raped because they've had false memories

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Speaker 1: and planted in them and stuff, and all of that

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Speaker 1: was only possible because of a shipload of things that

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Speaker 1: happened in the United States that made it the perfect

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Speaker 1: soil for something like this. So we're gonna explain kind

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Speaker 1: of all of different things that made it possible. First.

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Speaker 1: So one factor in the Satanic Panic being a thing

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Speaker 1: that could happen was the fact that starting with our

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Speaker 1: old buddy l Ron Hubbard in the nineteen fifties, colts

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Speaker 1: started to get super mainstream in the United States in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies um and one of the

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Speaker 1: ones that like got the most public perception was the

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Speaker 1: Manson Colt, which carried out a string of grizzly murders

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Speaker 1: in August of nineteen sixty nine. The most famous Manson

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Speaker 1: killing was the murder of Sharon Tate, Abigail Folger, and

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Speaker 1: several other less famous people. I think they killed five

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Speaker 1: people at once in this like big compound that was

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Speaker 1: like Roman Polanski's house, but he was out at the time.

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Speaker 1: And these murders were incredibly grizzly, and they had elements

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Speaker 1: that police at the time described as ritualistic. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that they actually were ritualistic murders, but it was

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Speaker 1: described as ritualistic murders. So you have these cults. Is

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Speaker 1: that great book Chaos O'Neill, and it just dispels all

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Speaker 1: of that, like it was just again they just rolled

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Speaker 1: with it exactly. Yeah, yeah, and it is bullshit, but

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Speaker 1: people at the time believe it. So you've got suddenly

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Speaker 1: number one, cults are all to the place, um. And

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Speaker 1: then you've got this cult murdering people. And then in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies you get the Zodiac Killer and the

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Speaker 1: Son of Sam and the Alphabet Killer, and all of

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Speaker 1: these were mass murderers whose slayings had like weird ritualistic

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Speaker 1: and occult seeming overtones to them. So people start to

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Speaker 1: like get like really convinced that that this is a

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Speaker 1: thing that actually happens, right that like, and they have

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Speaker 1: some you know, if you are a person who reads

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Speaker 1: the news in this period, you've got what you think

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Speaker 1: is solid evidence that this is a problem, that there's

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Speaker 1: ritualistic cults out there murdering people for a cult you know, purposes. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies also happened to be the decade where

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Speaker 1: Satanism went I don't know, mainstream is probably saying too much,

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Speaker 1: but it became like it became like an organized thing, right.

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Speaker 1: Anton the Vey publishes the Satanic Bible in nineteen sixty nine,

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Speaker 1: which became the central text for the Church of Satan,

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Speaker 1: which probably had its heyday in the nineteen seventies. Now,

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Speaker 1: the reality is that the Satanic Bible was both largely

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Speaker 1: plagiarized and more or less just a self help book

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Speaker 1: with an g rapping to it. This did not stop

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Speaker 1: people who hadn't read it from flipping the funk out.

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Speaker 1: So the Church of Satan, again fundamentally pretty peaceful thing,

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Speaker 1: has maybe five thousand members in the US at its

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Speaker 1: height during this period. But all of this ship happening,

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Speaker 1: like you know, with the Mansons and with these ritual murders,

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Speaker 1: and then all the ship that's happening in Hollywood in

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Speaker 1: terms of like the movies that are coming up, kind

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Speaker 1: of cooks it into the center of a conspiracy. So

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy three you have the best selling novel

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Speaker 1: The Exorcist adapted into a film. We all know about

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Speaker 1: the Exorcist, big part of it is demonic possession. Um

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Speaker 1: And in order to improve ticket sales, its producers claim

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Speaker 1: that it was based on a true story, which was

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Speaker 1: a lie. Um. They were like, some elements were taken

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Speaker 1: all out of a story of an actual priest who

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Speaker 1: had an x an exorcism, but like it had bore

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Speaker 1: no resemblance to anything that happened in the book. Priest. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: priests once existed and he was a little off. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Demonic possession hadn't been a massive topic in American culture

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Speaker 1: in this period, um, but after the Exorcist, it becomes

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Speaker 1: like a huge topic of discussion. For one thing, there's

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Speaker 1: hundreds of like movies that come out that are based

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Speaker 1: on like similar premises, right. The thing that all that

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Speaker 1: that like little bitty shitty b movie producers always do

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Speaker 1: like they rip off the big popular movie. Um. And

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Speaker 1: for most Americans, obviously, this just meant that we got

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Speaker 1: a bunch of fun horror movies that involved demonic possession.

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Speaker 1: But among the nascent Christian right, which in this period

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Speaker 1: was starting to form into a political block for the

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Speaker 1: first time in the United States, the Exorcist was seen

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Speaker 1: as a deadly warning. This was helped along by a

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Speaker 1: new species of evangelical Christian grifter themselves inspired by the

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Speaker 1: Church of Satan, the fake former Satanist. So you start

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Speaker 1: having former former Satanists kind of like these former Catholic

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Speaker 1: nuns popping up in this period and lecturing about things

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Speaker 1: they had supposedly done. Now, the most prominent of these

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Speaker 1: guys was Mike Warnkey, who published his book Satan Seller

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Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy two. Uh Satan Seller recounted a childhood

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Speaker 1: and young adulthood that Warnkey claimed had been spent like

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Speaker 1: as a a hardcore devil worshiper. He claimed that he'd

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Speaker 1: been a Satanic high priest and that he'd been involved

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Speaker 1: in ritualistic sex orgies. He went into detail about ritual murders,

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Speaker 1: child murder, and mass rape, claiming that he'd participated in

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Speaker 1: a variety of capital offenses until Jesus saved him by

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Speaker 1: sending him to Vietnam. Um that's what he Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: horrible guy. Yeah, there were a lot of Satanists back

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Speaker 1: in the sixties and seventies. We had to get him

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Speaker 1: all off phenomen to clear that ship out. Um. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty wild because all of these guys like Warren

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Speaker 1: Key would like they would all claim to have taken

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Speaker 1: part in like serious crimes that never got investigated. So

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Speaker 1: you'd think people would be like you said you murdered

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Speaker 1: a bunch of babies, Like, oh, like, yeah, he's just

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Speaker 1: admitted it in right, Yeah, it's it's it's just absolutely

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Speaker 1: it does. And Warren Key, Mike Warrenkey is kind of

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Speaker 1: the biggest person, like who starts this avalanche, and he's

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Speaker 1: within the bubble of Christian media, which was a lot

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Speaker 1: smaller back then. He was a huge celebrity and he

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Speaker 1: actually cracked over in the mainstream to an extent. He

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Speaker 1: showed up on Oprah, on Larry King and telling lurid

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Speaker 1: stories about his supposed past as a devil worshiper. He

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Speaker 1: also used his past as a Satanist to launch a

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Speaker 1: career as a Christian stand up comedian. Yeah it's story. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very funny now. For reasons I will never be

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Speaker 1: able to explain, Warren Ca saw massive success hybridizing his

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Speaker 1: stand up routine with his claims about child like sex

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Speaker 1: abuse and satanism um, which led to some really baffling

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Speaker 1: recordings like the one I'm About to play you from

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Speaker 1: his nineteen eighty nine stand up routine, Do you hear

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Speaker 1: me in it? He starts with incredibly lame jokes, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna play you a selection of his jokes just

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Speaker 1: so you can get an idea of what the tenner

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Speaker 1: of his stand up act is. Like, told me this

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Speaker 1: is gonna be a Christian playing and I tell you

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Speaker 1: right now that bow up our own stage. He is

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Speaker 1: not a Christian because he's got that long hair. Why

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Speaker 1: do people drive on parkways and park on driveways? What

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Speaker 1: is daylight savings time? And if we're saving so much

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Speaker 1: of it, who's got it all? How do you know

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Speaker 1: when yogurt's gone bad? How do you get tehlone to

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Speaker 1: stick to a skillet when nothing sticks? To tell I'm

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Speaker 1: not hearing you laugh, Jake. Do you not enjoy his comedy?

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know when you're Christmas you get like

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Speaker 1: a joke in the crack up like it's that it's

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Speaker 1: that level of like sun Cracker jokes into like stand up.

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Speaker 1: He looks like he just I don't know, man, he

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Speaker 1: looks actually kind of like the devil worshiper from like

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Speaker 1: Three Detectives. You know, does he does look like a

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Speaker 1: Satan's right, like like like a movie satan it's not

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Speaker 1: a no offense to the actual Satanists in the audience.

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Speaker 1: He would cast him as one, right, Yeah, like this

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Speaker 1: guy looks evil, yeah, and he definitely so. Like You've

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Speaker 1: got those jokes, which are like the most milk toast

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Speaker 1: nonsense that you could possibly put in a stand up routine,

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Speaker 1: And then in the middle of them, he starts talking

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Speaker 1: about deadly serious anecdotes about ritual genital mutilation and sacrifice.

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Speaker 1: And again this is in the middle of a stand

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Speaker 1: up set to a bunch of kids. Christian kids are

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Speaker 1: Christian kids and their families. I'm talking about a little

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Speaker 1: girl who was murdered last year in the state of

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Speaker 1: Louisiana by having her sexual organs cut out while she

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Speaker 1: was still A lot a lot of you think that

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Speaker 1: when a Satanist kills, they do so because they want

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Speaker 1: to spill blood. You've seen enough late night movies to

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Speaker 1: think that. But if a Satanist or any other kind

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Speaker 1: of occultist kills an animal or a human sacrifice, it's

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Speaker 1: not to spill blood. It's to release the life force.

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Speaker 1: Because when the life force is released and you've done

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Speaker 1: the right incantations and rituals. You can absorb that force,

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Speaker 1: they say, and it makes you a stronger wizard, warlock

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Speaker 1: or whatever. The death, more reorganizing the death, the more

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Speaker 1: force is released. So they took this little girl and

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Speaker 1: they killed her by cutting her sexual organs out while

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Speaker 1: she was still alive. Yeah, okay, really wait to lighten

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Speaker 1: the mood. So you know, I've done some stand up

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Speaker 1: by a friends who did it. That's a definite choice

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Speaker 1: in terms of how to end your set. Yeah. By

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Speaker 1: the way he's saying, he's yeah, yeah, it's not it's

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Speaker 1: complete nonsense. Why isn't he being investiga. I'm mean you

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Speaker 1: listened to that though, and like the audience is deadly quiet.

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Speaker 1: You have to assume they were all buying this ship.

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Speaker 1: Like there seemed to be taking him very soon, and

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Speaker 1: he was taken very seriously. Um, which is a problem

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Speaker 1: because he was a preposterous liar. Actual journalists sat down

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Speaker 1: with Warrenkey's family and friends to ask them about his claims,

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Speaker 1: which included the fact that he lived in a witch's

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Speaker 1: coven with fift other people, um, and that he'd been

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Speaker 1: a horrible drug addict and all of his like family,

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Speaker 1: everyone who knew him laughed at all of this, like,

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Speaker 1: of course, like we fucking grew up with him. He's

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Speaker 1: like he's he's just a nerd exactly. Uh. And there

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Speaker 1: were a bunch of obvious holes in his story. For example,

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Speaker 1: he claimed that Charles Manson had attended one of his

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Speaker 1: deadly ritual sacrifice parties in nineteen sixty six. Unfortunately, the

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Speaker 1: exact time that he claimed the party happened occurred during

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Speaker 1: concurred occurred at the same time as one of manson

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Speaker 1: stints in federal prison from a parole violation, so he

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Speaker 1: could not have been there. There's actually a whole book

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Speaker 1: that like was published proving beyond a shadow of a

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Speaker 1: doubt that Warren Key was a liar. And in fairness,

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Speaker 1: the journalists were too, Christian journalists who worked for like

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Speaker 1: an evangelical news site, who were like, this guy is

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Speaker 1: like fucking full of ship, clearly, and yeah, like you know,

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Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with Christians, is like even taking advantage

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Speaker 1: of like, yeah, evangelical who you know exactly, He's he's

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Speaker 1: grifting these people by staring at them. Like it's very

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Speaker 1: horrible what he's doing. Not only is his comedy bad,

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Speaker 1: but he's he's frightening people, and it's bad to frighten

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Speaker 1: people for no reason. I would say, yeah, so unless

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Speaker 1: it's funny, unless it's funny, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: funny that Yeah, he's absolutely not. Yeah. Um but yeah.

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Speaker 1: The fact that Warrenkey was like he had a private

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Speaker 1: jet at one point, like he's he was at least

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Speaker 1: he claimed he had a private jet. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: but he was very popular like it, and he was

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Speaker 1: a huge deal for a while. Um. Now, right around

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Speaker 1: the same time Warnkey was starting to preach about ritual

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Speaker 1: satanic murder, which is again in the midst of all

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Speaker 1: these cults and zodiac killers and ship something else was

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Speaker 1: happening in Americans, I d people were starting to accept

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Speaker 1: that child sexual abuse was a thing and was a

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Speaker 1: major problem, which is a good thing, right obviously, and

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Speaker 1: for a long time, like people, you know, it is

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Speaker 1: one of those things when you go back in time

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Speaker 1: like they were. It was kind of people really didn't

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Speaker 1: give as much of a ship about kids as you

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Speaker 1: might expect back in the day. It was the same

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Speaker 1: in the UK, yeah, absolutely, people like, oh, we used

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Speaker 1: just let our kids out and play anytime you could

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Speaker 1: do that back then, like as if poptos didn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it was. It wasn't like ignoring kids yeah back

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Speaker 1: then either. But yeah, they people start to accept that

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Speaker 1: it's a thing, and there starts to be like an

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Speaker 1: industry starts to build up with people who are our

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Speaker 1: child protection advocates, which again is a good thing, but

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Speaker 1: aspects of it go terribly wrong. Um yeah, it's it's

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Speaker 1: really messed up. Because getting people to accept that child

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Speaker 1: sexual abuse was a problem was one of the first victories,

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Speaker 1: major victories of the modern feminist movement, right, not talking

402
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Speaker 1: about like the suffragets, but like people like Glorious Steinam

403
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Speaker 1: and stuff like like like so it is like and

404
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Speaker 1: this is like a really big victory that they that

405
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Speaker 1: they getting people to take this seriously. And initially their

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Speaker 1: understanding and the understanding of most people was that most

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Speaker 1: abuse victims were young girls, primarily daughters, who were violated

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Speaker 1: by incestuous fathers. Um. And it's it is absolutely true

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Speaker 1: that most kids who are molested are molested by a

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Speaker 1: close family member that or afraid of the family. Um. Now,

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Speaker 1: as a result, the problem of child sexual abuse was

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Speaker 1: generally referred to as a problem with incest during this period,

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Speaker 1: So you'll see a lot of people talking about incest,

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Speaker 1: and they're not talking like when we talk about incest today,

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Speaker 1: it generally means something different. They're talking about child sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse as a rule when they talk about incest in

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Speaker 1: this period. So, feminists argued that the solution to this

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Speaker 1: was greater gender equality, which would enable girls to more

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Speaker 1: effectively say no to the demands of their abuse of

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Speaker 1: male relatives, and it would allow wives to stand up

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Speaker 1: to their husbands. And they also argued that part I

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Speaker 1: don't think is accurate, But they also argued that it

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Speaker 1: would give mothers the option of taking their kids out

424
00:22:58,600 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: of the house because they'd be able to have a

425
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 1: job at a checking account. And that part actually does

426
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 1: seem like a realistic remedy. So again, yeah, right, like,

427
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:10,200
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, um, it does make sense.

428
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 1: It's a good thing to do. But like everything that

429
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,040
Speaker 1: people do, there were problematic and and faulty aspects of it,

430
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: including the fact how people began to sort of look

431
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 1: at the problem of the men who were doing the molesting.

432
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote again from Satan's Silence here, these

433
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: feminist visions were obscured however, by an inTransition by an

434
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: intransigent society, White insistence that the problem lay merely in

435
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,480
Speaker 1: the minds of a few troubled men. Accordingly, the cure

436
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: for sex abuse was psychotherapy coupled with family counseling. And

437
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: if treatment was all that was necessary, sex abuse was

438
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: not so much a crime as an illness. Hence, rather

439
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: than calling for careful and partial investigation by the police,

440
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: accusations demanded intervention by psychotherapists prepared to take the side

441
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: of the grief daughter and to heal the perpetrator, even

442
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,400
Speaker 1: if he insisted the charges were false. Um, so again

443
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: this we'll talk about some of the problems that the causes.

444
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: Obviously good that it's being taken seriously, but also yeah,

445
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 1: well we'll cover the aspects of this that are problematic.

446
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 1: So the first comprehensive legal remedy to the problem of

447
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: child sex abuse was Walter Mondale's nineteen seventy three Child

448
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,360
Speaker 1: Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act or CAPTA and captives set

449
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: aside money to reach research child abuse for the first time,

450
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: which is great, definitely a good thing researching like the

451
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: causes of it. It also gave money to states, so

452
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: they could set up treatment programs, which was more of

453
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: a mixed bag because in order to get the Act

454
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: through congressional Republicans and get it approved by President Nixon,

455
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,560
Speaker 1: Mondale had to water down some things. See the data

456
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: suggested that the most significant driving factor behind child abuse

457
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: of any kind was poverty, but Republicans didn't want to

458
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: hear that, so out the door it went. Corporal punishment

459
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: was also understood to be a major part of child abuse,

460
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 1: but talking about that was seen as undermining the authority

461
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: of parents, so instead the Act focused on physical abuse

462
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: and the idea that abuse of parents were suffering from

463
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: a psychological illness, one that could strike any parent and

464
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 1: one that could be cured quote. By the time Senate

465
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: hearings for Captain convened, this medicalized interpretation of child abuse

466
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: was so firmly established that experts like Brandeis University professor

467
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 1: of social policy David Gill found it impossible to promote

468
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: a different analysis to the politicians. After doing a groundbreaking

469
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: national survey of child abuse in the nineteen sixties, Gil

470
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,400
Speaker 1: had concluded that neglected battering were intimately tied to poverty,

471
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: and that the federal government's reluctance to correct social and

472
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: economic inequality made Uncle Sam the country's worst child mistreator.

473
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,159
Speaker 1: But Mondale interrupted Gil and reminded the audience during the

474
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: hearing that this is not a poverty problem. It is

475
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: a national problem. So again, the biggest part of child

476
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 1: abuse is not child molestation, it's neglect and physical abuse,

477
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 1: which is primarily driven by poverty. But nobody wanted to

478
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 1: hear that in Congress, so instead they just focused on

479
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. Sorry, as I said, you know what

480
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: that kind of like reminds me of, Like, so I've

481
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,439
Speaker 1: done research on all this kind of child abuse stuff,

482
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: and it is true that there are there have been

483
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: like communal child abusage, absolutely for sure. Yes, And then

484
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 1: but then when they bring the devil in tweet, it's like, oh,

485
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 1: get the priest to sort it out, and it just

486
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: completely flies out the window and it isn't taken seriously anymore.

487
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: It's so annoying. Yeah, it's it's very frustrating. Yeah. Yeah.

488
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,680
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you see here too

489
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: is people who have no experience in like investigating cases

490
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: being assigned to these cases because they stopped being seen

491
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: as a criminal problem. Um. Yeah, So Congress didn't like

492
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: Professor Gill's testimony, but they really enjoyed the testimony of

493
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,360
Speaker 1: a woman named Maureen Litvin, a southern California mom who

494
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: went by the pseudonym Jolly Kay. Now Jolly told a

495
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: heartbreaking story about how she'd been abused as a child

496
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: and how this abuse had led her to abuse her

497
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: own kids. She testified. She testified that she had once

498
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 1: tried to strangle her daughter and had thrown a knife

499
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: at her daughter on another occasion. Now Jolly k described

500
00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: her long process of seeking treatment until finally her therapist

501
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: advisor to start a self help group, which she eventually

502
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: called Parents Anonymous. Now, a group like this being sort

503
00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: of touted as a cure for child abuse was a

504
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: dream come true for Congress because Parents Anonymous Number one

505
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: put the responsibility on abuse of parents themselves for fixing

506
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: the problem, and it costs basically nothing to support as

507
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: opposed to alleviating poverty. Right, That's exactly right, Yeah, pan

508
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,360
Speaker 1: on Um, So Congress did give federal support to Parents Anonymous,

509
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: but it was a hell of a lot cheaper than

510
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: like fixing the broken social safety net or raising the

511
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:29,400
Speaker 1: minimum wage or any of the other things that might

512
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: have actually done a real like significant help. Uh. Not

513
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: that it's a bad idea to have support groups for

514
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: parents like this, but I would say that that shouldn't

515
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: be your first priority when parents are throwing knives at kits,

516
00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, yeah, So Captor was enacted in nineteen

517
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 1: seventy four, and among other things, that made therapists, teachers

518
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: and school administrators mandatory reporters. I don't know what you

519
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: have if you have this in the UK, but basically,

520
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: if you're a mandatory reporter and someone discloses child abuse

521
00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: to you, you have to report it to the authority,

522
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 1: which is again a thing that makes sense on paper

523
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: and sometimes is a good thing, but also is sometimes

524
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: a bad thing because the police often do a very

525
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: bad job of handling these cases, and it makes the

526
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: kid not trust whatever authority figure they'd confided in about

527
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: the abuse in the first place. Like it's a very

528
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: mixed bag, you could say, um, But the first thing

529
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: that happened when they you know, Captive gets past is

530
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 1: it leads to a massive search and reported child abuse.

531
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 1: Suddenly it goes from something that like very rarely got

532
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: reported to something that fucking all over the place which

533
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 1: is because child abuse was all over the place, right, Like,

534
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: it's not a bad thing that suddenly people are like, oh, ship,

535
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: a ton of people are abusing and molesting their kids.

536
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: But this led to a massive problem for federal and

537
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: state governments because an awful lot of working men were

538
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: revealed to be abusive to their children. Locking these guys

539
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: up would force the state to pay for their care,

540
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 1: and it would remove like tax money from the state,

541
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: and it would force them to like pay in welfare

542
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: to support the family. This was unacceptable. Thankfully, self help,

543
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: the self help therapy group models solved this problem because

544
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: instead of going to jail, abusive fathers were sentenced to therapy,

545
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 1: which their families were often mandated to attend with them,

546
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: including the children they've been fucking or hitting, like the

547
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: way to like destroy the victim even more, right, like

548
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: like you couldn't come up with a better way of

549
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: doing it. How horrible, it's so fucked up, um, And

550
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's it's it's yeah. This is not to

551
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: say that the situation for abused children was better prior

552
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: to this, because like for girls, and it was nearly

553
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: always girls who reported abuse back in the early nineteen seventies,

554
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 1: the standard procedure before captive would be to make a

555
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 1: report to the police, who would then force you to

556
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: undergo an invasive genital exam, and then the cops would

557
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: usually do a follow up interview which they would they

558
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: would like, show up at your school to interrogate you

559
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: and ship um and you'd be sent to a foster

560
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: home or a juvenile home, while your abusive dad stayed

561
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: with the rest of your family so that he could

562
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 1: threaten them into getting their stories straight, and the charges

563
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: against him would inevitably hit the local news, which means

564
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: he would lose his job, which with the family would

565
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: fall in the It was just a whole fucking it's

566
00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: always been bad, right Like when criticizing captain, I don't

567
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: want to pretend that like it was good before, because yeah,

568
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: but it's it's like putting salt in the wound a

569
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: little bit more, you know what I mean. It's like

570
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: trying to bail out the ship with the thimble exactly exactly.

571
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: So the self help therapy group option allowed police to

572
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: keep these kind of cases quiet, which saved on embarrassment

573
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 1: for everybody. It also allowed the fathers to stay employed

574
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: and it avoided breaking up the family, which religious right

575
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 1: wingers considered to be as much of a priority as

576
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: treating battered kids. Jake, do you like weddings? Have you

577
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: ever been at a wedding and been like, boy, I

578
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: wish I could find a way to get several dozen

579
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: grams of hexogen explosives delivered to this wedding, but I

580
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: just don't have a missile guidance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so yeah,

581
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 1: Well the good people at Raytheon can help you out

582
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 1: with that, Jake, because the missile guidance chips they make

583
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 1: are guaranteed to hit weddings, school buses, mostly those two targets. Um.

584
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, no, no, it does help if you're in Yemen.

585
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: Raytheon big presence and all right, here's the the actual ads.

586
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 1: All right, we're back, we're back. We're talking about bettered kids.

587
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: Kind of deflated a little there. So the self help

588
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: therapy group option was was considered great by everybody but

589
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: the actual kids who were being abused. Um And oddly enough,

590
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: one of the things that's weird about it in this

591
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: period is that both kind of like a lot of

592
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: left wing folks and feminists and the religious right kind

593
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: of all get on board this idea for very different reasons. Right,

594
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: the religious right likes keeping the family together, um, and

595
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: it likes you know, they want to avoid divorces and

596
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: and what and whatnot at all costs. Feminists like it

597
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: because all of these groups do involve these men talking

598
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: about like they're like the things that the horrible things

599
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: that they've done, like they're horrible sexual fantasies and stuff,

600
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: which was seen as like a use whole thing at

601
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,360
Speaker 1: the time, right, like there, So it is this weird

602
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: kind of situation. And there's also you can find some

603
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: writings from some people who are like advocate like child

604
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: defense advocates and very left wing at the time, who

605
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: also like that kind of the confessional nature of these

606
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: things mirrors like what you see in certain like left

607
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: wing political movements, the self criticism sessions. So it's weird

608
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: you get all these different like like, all these groups

609
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: who should who normally are at each other's throats all

610
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: get on board of a very bad idea for wildly

611
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: different reasons. Yeah, a very different tech mil you know, yeah,

612
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, Yeah, a very different one. Yeah, it's bizarre. Um,

613
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,200
Speaker 1: it's a really strange period to study So if you're

614
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: starting to say, boy, it seems like all these new

615
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 1: programs prioritize the feelings and security of male abusers over

616
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: their female child victims, you would be right. Uh. And

617
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: the growing field of child protection was rife with misogyny.

618
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: The best example would be Dr Roland Summit, who was

619
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 1: a massive piece of ship. He went on to be

620
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: a major Satanic ritual abuse expert, and obviously everything he

621
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: ever said about Satanic ritual abuse was nonsense. But before

622
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: that he was an incest expert, and in his expert opinion,

623
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse by fathers was largely the fault of

624
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: their wives. So this guy, who was again one of

625
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 1: the most prominent doctors in the field and this time

626
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: describes the behavior of child molesters as family romance. I'm sorry,

627
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: did you have any siblings? He had some daughters that

628
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: you have to worry for them. Um. He believed that

629
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: fathers who molested their daughters would never molest a stranger's daughter,

630
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: which obviously is wildly untrue. In his argument was that

631
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,959
Speaker 1: the attraction of these fathers was purely two in his words,

632
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: the delicious little creatures that the father had helped to create.

633
00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: So somem It felt that basically all men considered their

634
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: daughters to be delicious, and that the impulse to commit

635
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: incest was nearly universal from middle aged men who were

636
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: anxious about the end of their own youth men and

637
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 1: healthy man projecting a little bit. Yeah yeah, So since

638
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,640
Speaker 1: all men clearly want to suck their daughters, the only

639
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: reason that most men don't is because they have healthy

640
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: marriages that let them deal with their horny nous by

641
00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,240
Speaker 1: fucking their wives. So when incest happens, it's the fault

642
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 1: of the abuser's wife who was quote absorbing herself in

643
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: a job rather than fucking her husband hard enough to

644
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: stop him from raping their daughter. She's it's the right

645
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: wing like defense. It's like outrageously fucked up. And he

646
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: said this officially, like yeah, yeah, he was very open

647
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: about this, and no one went, hang on, like, this

648
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: guy is up to something. I would argue the right

649
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: response when someone tells you that is to just start

650
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: hitting them and not stop. Just just immediately started punching,

651
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: but no one did. Instead, he was taken seriously. So

652
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 1: these beliefs were unfortunately quite common, and one of the

653
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: most popular abuse treatment programs at the time was called

654
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: Child Sex Abuse Treatment Program or c sat UP, SAT UP,

655
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: CASSETTAP s A C C S A T P. I

656
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 1: don't know how to acronymic CASSATTAP, so you did not

657
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: do great. Cassett UP first launched in the Bay Area,

658
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 1: and it was geared towards preserving nuclear families. That because

659
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: basically what happened is in the Bay Area because of

660
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: a number of things, including affluence, it's one of the

661
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 1: first areas that starts getting like really good reporting about

662
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse. And it turns out that a bunch

663
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: of fucking dudes in the Bay Area we're raping their

664
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: kids um, which created a problem because these guides were

665
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: pretty high income. So again, the state doesn't want to

666
00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: lose tax money, doesn't want their parents to go on

667
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: the doll or their their families to go on the

668
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: doll um. So c sat UP was geared towards preserving

669
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: nuclear families, and it taught that the of sexual abuse

670
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: of children was a dysfunctional marriage. Part of the repair

671
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: work mandated by the therapy involved the mother apologizing to

672
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: her daughter for her husband's sexual abuse and saying you

673
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: are not to blame daddy and I did not have

674
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: a good marriage. That is why Daddy turned to you. Wow,

675
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable, unbelievable. That's like, I can't believe that

676
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: when the Yeah, this is the fucking like the late seventies. Yeah,

677
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 1: thank you, you know what I mean? Like, no, no, really,

678
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: fucking pretty recently. Um, we'll probably get at least one

679
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: person who as a kid like went through Sea sat

680
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 1: up and stuff with their family. In the comments in

681
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: this episode from I wouldn't be surprised. Um, it's it's

682
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 1: so fucked um, it's so fucking wild. So, starting in

683
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 1: San Jose, se sat up was increasingly mandated for father's

684
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: accused of sexual abuse. Courts often made fathers what became

685
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: known as the god fought their offer because it was

686
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 1: an offer they couldn't refuse. So you get caught, you

687
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: go to therapy, take probation, and avoid jail. Almost overnight,

688
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: the confession rate among accused child molesters went from very

689
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 1: low to nine And again, I don't wanna. This is

690
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: a really flawed system. So we're going to cover all

691
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: the ship that's bad. It's also the aspects of it

692
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 1: were good because most of these guys at this point,

693
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: very few sexual abuse allegations made by children against parents

694
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: were false, right, So the vast majority of these guys,

695
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,240
Speaker 1: you have to assume some innocent people took the basically

696
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: the equivalent of a police bargain just because they didn't

697
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: want to go to trial. But the vast majority of

698
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,800
Speaker 1: these guys were guilty, and at least something happened um

699
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: but c sat up led to a number of very

700
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 1: unsettling changes in the way these problems were dealt with.

701
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: For one thing, police shifted away from interviewing the child

702
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: in these cases and instead started talking to their teachers,

703
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,520
Speaker 1: their mother, and other adults who knew the kid. And

704
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,280
Speaker 1: these second hand accounts of people who knew the child

705
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: were considered to have the same legal weight as if

706
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: they'd come directly from the child. This is problematic for

707
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,480
Speaker 1: a number of reasons. I think that as a journalist

708
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: we want to stand right, yeah, a little bit, yeah,

709
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: And it feeds into the satanic panic stuff we're gonna

710
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 1: talk about later. When the child was eventually questioned, the

711
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,720
Speaker 1: work was done by a social worker rather than a detective.

712
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 1: And this may not sound like a problem because, like,

713
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: if you have a social worker who specifically trained for

714
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: this ship. That sounds good because cops are not great

715
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,160
Speaker 1: at talking to kids all the time, right, right, But

716
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: there was a crime committed, right, So it's like you

717
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: need more than the social worker, right like us, one

718
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 1: would say. And also the social workers were not well

719
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: trained to do this. They were well trained on how

720
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: to interrogate someone without asking leading questions, right, Police are

721
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: at least in theory, taught not to do that. Like,

722
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: obviously that's a problematical yeah, But theoretically, a detective who's

723
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,320
Speaker 1: questioning a child is number one, not supposed to assume

724
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: the allegations are true. They're not supposed to ask the

725
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,120
Speaker 1: leading questions. They're just supposed to try to have the

726
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: kid talk about what happened, and the accused enjoys the

727
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: presumption of innocence. And the social workers questioning these kids

728
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 1: weren't trained that way. They were trained to believe that

729
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: it's always the case that like this is this is

730
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: this per and is guilty, which is a problem for

731
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: the person interrogating the kid in this situation because they

732
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: tended to push the child to talk about like things

733
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: that the child might not otherwise have talked about. Now, again,

734
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: not a huge problem at the time because virtually all

735
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: of these allegations of child sexual abuse were true. But

736
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: when the Satanic panic came about, the allegations were false,

737
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 1: and the social workers still did the same thing. They

738
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: pushed kids. Yeah, you're seeing all of this infrastruction their

739
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: own thing against them. So yeah, forward right exactly, Like

740
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: so you're seeing all this kind of infrastructure that created

741
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: that allows this to happen later. So, by nineteen seventy five,

742
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,399
Speaker 1: c sat UP had become so popular that the entire

743
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,479
Speaker 1: state of California adopted as the standard. Our friend. Dr

744
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 1: Summit attended c sat UP training and was so taken

745
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: by it but that he wrote a manifesto titled the

746
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: Child Sexual Abuse Accommodation Syndrome. In it, among other things,

747
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 1: he pushed the idea that children never fabricate the kinds

748
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: of explicit sexual manipulations they'd divulge in complaints or interrogations.

749
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: As a result, they should always be believed, even if

750
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 1: their story included fantastic, wild details that seemed impossible. Again,

751
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: like you're seeing the groundwork get laid here. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

752
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 1: By nineteen eighty, child sexual abuse was no longer a

753
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: dark national secret. It was a topic widely discussed by

754
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: Americans and featured in the media, and I'm gonna quote

755
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: again from Satan's Silence. Thanks to an alliance among feminists, therapists,

756
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,800
Speaker 1: and law enforcement officials, it was becoming possible for daughters

757
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: to disclose their victimization and for fathers to admit their guilt,

758
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 1: and national media from The New York Times to Playboy,

759
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: The and Landers Encyclopedia and Donna Hue testimonials abounded from

760
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: repentant fathers, newly asserted wives and girls regaining their dignity.

761
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: Yet later research would reveal that many incest defenders also

762
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 1: rebeless children outside their families, and they rape grown women

763
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 1: as well. Further, there is evidence that, regardless of what

764
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: kind of treatment, sex abusers get, as many as one

765
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: in seven goes on to offend again. Ironically, then politicians

766
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: and child protectionists further to keep fathers in families left

767
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 1: many youngsters and women at risk of further abuse, and

768
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: by pushing godfather off for confessions, the therapy attle of

769
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: sex abuse intervention replaced skilled forensics personnel with social workers

770
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 1: and others who knew nothing about how to test the

771
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:09,720
Speaker 1: validity of criminal sex abuse charges. And who unstintingly believe

772
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: them all. So by nineteen eighty, all of the infrastructure

773
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: we're going to need to let a satanic panic happen

774
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: and had to have the legal system in Like, further,

775
00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: it is in place, right, didn't just come out of

776
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: nowhere built on without them, I guess, without trying to

777
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: do that. But like I can see what you're saying,

778
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: like it just became the perfect ground for it, right. Yeah.

779
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: And obviously like fun dr summit, But the vast majority

780
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: of the people involved in the setting this system up

781
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: are people whose motivations are the purest it could possibly be.

782
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,440
Speaker 1: They want to protect kids right there trying it's a problem,

783
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,879
Speaker 1: but it's a new way to tackle it. Yeah, yeah,

784
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 1: And again probably up to this point the system still

785
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 1: does more harm than good because it was it replaced

786
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: basically nothing, right um, But it's about to stop being

787
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 1: a system that does more good than harm, right, Like,

788
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 1: that's that's about to change. So there's some more background

789
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: we have to lay. In nineteen seventy nine, Jerry Fallwell

790
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: and some other assholes founded the Moral Majority, which was

791
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: the first large scale Christian right wing political organization. This

792
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 1: is the first time that the Christian right is like

793
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,720
Speaker 1: a block in politics and it has been ever since.

794
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: The Moral Majority was initially formed due to an opposition

795
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,359
Speaker 1: to Rove Wade and to force an opposition to force

796
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: integration of Christian schools. They didn't want black people to

797
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: be able to go to Christian colleges. That was a

798
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:26,080
Speaker 1: big part of the Christian of the very Christian of them,

799
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 1: extremely love the neighbor, and it was Jerry, Yeah, yeah,

800
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: very surprising stuff, um so, and like yeah, there's there

801
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: were other a lot of other people obviously, but yeah,

802
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: the Moral Majority was fueled also by a sense of deep,

803
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 1: deep anxiety because women are starting to work at this point,

804
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 1: like full time, Like it's becoming a very major thing.

805
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 1: One of the things I didn't realize until I was

806
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: doing this research actually is that during this period, from

807
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: like the seventies to the eighties, women it becomes the

808
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: norm for women to work, but the average income of

809
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: households doesn't really raise because like this is also at

810
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 1: the time that workers protections and right are collapsing, and

811
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: like Reaganomics starts to take over in the eighties, so

812
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: like more people like you would think that having two

813
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: incomes in a household would increase the amount of any

814
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: like disposable income people have, but it really didn't. And

815
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: again yeah, yeah, great countries. So in nineteen eight, a

816
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: psychologist named named Lawrence Pastor published a book about his

817
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 1: wife and former patient, Michelle Smith, which you know, if

818
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: your wife is a former patient as a therapist, you

819
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: might not be a great therapist. So her memoir, Michelle Remembers,

820
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: detailed a childhood of horrific a cult sex abuse. Pastor

821
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: claimed to have used hypnotic regression therapy to help his

822
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: wife uncover buried memories of abuse at the hands of

823
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: the Church of Satan. Pastor also claimed, with no evidence

824
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:49,280
Speaker 1: that Anton LaVey's church wasn't the real Church of Satan

825
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,720
Speaker 1: and the one that molested his patient wife had existed

826
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: for centuries. So and Michelle Remembers is basically so. The

827
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: claim she's making is that she became the victim of

828
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 1: a Satanic cult for several months during nineteen fifty five,

829
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: when she was a five year old, she was imprisoned

830
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: by them. She she like, had all these recollections being

831
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 1: tortured in houses and mausoleums and seminitaries, of being raped

832
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 1: and sodomized with candles and being forced to shoot on

833
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,280
Speaker 1: a bible. Uh, and on a crucifix, of seeing babies

834
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 1: and adults murdered. It's awesome because you know that two

835
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: Christians of the day like her being like, I help,

836
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: I watched babies get murdered was the same as like

837
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: and I pooped on a Bible. Like both equally bad

838
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: devil things like the guy like with their memories like

839
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: a little bit more a little bit more offensive. Yeah,

840
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: she also had memories of having a devil's tail and

841
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,319
Speaker 1: horns surgically attached to her um. Yeah, she there. She

842
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: had memories of a cult attempt to kill a child

843
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 1: and make it look like an accident by placing her

844
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: in a car with a corpse um and then crashing

845
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: the vehicle. And this is said to we have gone

846
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,520
Speaker 1: on for close to a year until her faith, the

847
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: fact that she was so Christian made the Satanists give

848
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: up because they just couldn't couldn't turn her. Uh. And

849
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,880
Speaker 1: then she him that she forgot the experience for twenty

850
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 1: years until she entered therapy with Dr Pastor, who then

851
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: became her husband. Now this was all lies. I feel

852
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: like the therapy he was like weak, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

853
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: if you remember, we can sell a book. And I

854
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 1: don't know, there's a There's been a lot of writing

855
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: on this too. I haven't done enough research to know

856
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,800
Speaker 1: how you know the con Michelle was, but I'm almost

857
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: certain her her husband was in on the con or

858
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: it was a con on his behalf. Incredible. People debunked

859
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: the book immediately. For one thing, there's a picture of

860
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: Michelle in her grade school yearbook that was taken during

861
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: one of the months when she was supposed to be

862
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 1: hidden like locked in a house by Satanists, which you know,

863
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,000
Speaker 1: all of her names and family members who knew her

864
00:45:42,080 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: during this period basically say like, nothing out of the

865
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: ordinary happened during her childhood. Uh, certainly nothing satanic ritual molesti.

866
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: The only abuse that Michelle endured, for certain was at

867
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 1: the hands of her therapist husband. The whole idea of

868
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: repressed memories, which now we got, we're laying a lot

869
00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 1: of groundwork here, so let's talk about the fucking idea

870
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: of repressed memories comes from. It goes back to the

871
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds when early psychologists decided that hysteria, which is

872
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: what they called women having emotions in those days came

873
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: from someone suffering a childhood trauma that was so terrible

874
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: that they developed amnesia to dissociate from the event. And

875
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: this is a mix of because like Freud is involved

876
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: in this and it's not all bullshit. Dissociation is a

877
00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 1: thing that happens when you under begin with PTSD, right,

878
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: Like we've all dealt with it, Like it's a fucking thing,

879
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: But it doesn't involve forgetting the horrible thing that happened, right,

880
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: Memories become blurry. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, but it

881
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: doesn't sound very real. Yeah. Yeah, Like I definitely have

882
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: had memories like that, like periods I don't remember during

883
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,240
Speaker 1: the the dealing with PTSD itself, but the actual trauma

884
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: that caused it I remember pretty darn well. Uh. And

885
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: the fact that I don't remember other things was probably

886
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: because I was like drinking and abusing drugs massively. Yeah,

887
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: so there. Yeah, and you know you have to assume

888
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: everyone was drunk in the eighteen hundreds too, and they

889
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: were definitely on cocaine because that's how Freud did all

890
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: of his psychotherapy, So yeah, that may have influenced the Yeah,

891
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: so Freud decided that hysteria was inevitably caused by childhood's

892
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: sexual violation, and he pressured his female patients to tell

893
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: him detailed stories of their abuse. And again a lot

894
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 1: of these were probably true, um, but also a lot

895
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 1: of them weren't, and he convinced himself that these stories

896
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: were hidden memories, at least for a while. He did

897
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: eventually realize that a lot of the abuse stories his

898
00:47:31,120 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: patients told him were like physically impossible because they were

899
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 1: just like the outlandish fantasies um. And he kind of

900
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: dropped this idea that child that like emotional issues like

901
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: mental illness as an adult was inevitably caused by like

902
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: some sort of sexual trauma as a child. He did

903
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: kind of drop that idea. But in the late nineteen seventies,

904
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 1: therapists started reviving his old theories, and among an influential

905
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 1: subset of the field, repressed memory therapy became the go

906
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: to explanation for things like eating disorders and depression. Right like,

907
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 1: you go to the psycho psychotherapist because you've got intorectually

908
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: there or whatever, and he's starts trying to recover memories

909
00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: of you being raped as a kid, because you must

910
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: have if you have intorectsia, right, it couldn't be caused

911
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 1: by anything else. Um, and yeah, this was basically nonsense.

912
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: And the problem about trying to recover implanted memories is

913
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: that generally what actually happens is the therapist creates memories

914
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: of things that never happened from a write up in

915
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,760
Speaker 1: the conversation. Now, experimental psychologists have repeatedly demonstrated with ease

916
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: which false memories can be implanted in a sizeable proportion

917
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 1: of the population under well controlled laboratory conditions, but it

918
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: is undoubtedly the case that such false memories can arise

919
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 1: spontaneously as well. In the context of psychotherapy, one of

920
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: the techniques that has been shown to result in false

921
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: memories is asking people to imagine events that never actually

922
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: took place. It appears that eventually, and especially in people

923
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: with good imaginations, the memory of the imagined event is

924
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: misinterpreted as a memory for a real event. The use

925
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: of hypnotic regression is a particularly powerful means to implant

926
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: false memories. So this became before though, Like as a kid,

927
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: there were things that I was certain was like what happened?

928
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: And then I get old on I think that must

929
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,719
Speaker 1: have been a dream. Was like, no way it would have,

930
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,799
Speaker 1: especially as a child, Like there's all sorts you could

931
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: get confused about, absolutely, and like a lot of this

932
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 1: is like this is part of the problem. This is

933
00:49:19,880 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: part of why. Also, if you look at like eyewitness

934
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: testimony like generally sucks. Actually, like people are very bad

935
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: at being eyewitnesses because our brains it all starts a

936
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,799
Speaker 1: wild ship. Yeah yeah, especially when there's like a traumatic experience,

937
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, important exactly. That's why reporters take notes,

938
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,720
Speaker 1: and it's why you should never listen to anything anyone

939
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,480
Speaker 1: ever says. Just fucking put on headphones to block out

940
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 1: all noise, fucking put on blinders so you can't see,

941
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,719
Speaker 1: and just stumble through the world and you will not

942
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: believe anything untrue. You will probably bump into things a

943
00:49:54,520 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 1: lot though. Yeah, yeah, yes, here's an ad for a product. Okay,

944
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:12,239
Speaker 1: we're back, so yeah. Hypnotic regression and repressed memories mostly nonsense,

945
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:14,720
Speaker 1: basically all nonsense, but it was considered to be pretty

946
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: settled science at the time, not by like an overwhelming

947
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: number of scientists, but by cops and judges and TV

948
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: hosts and the kinds of psychologists who are good at

949
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: talking to cops and judges and TV hosts, right, Like,

950
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 1: that's the group of people to whom this has settled

951
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: science for will actually incredible researchers like, there seem to

952
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: be problems with this. Um. So, Michelle Remembers was a

953
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: hugely influential book. Uh, it was treated as gospel by

954
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: a terrible number of people, and it actually became a

955
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 1: standard textbook for social workers in the United States. Um, yeah, yeah,

956
00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 1: it's not good man. So Lawrence Pastor became a recognized

957
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: legal expert, and Satanic ritual abuse, which exploded into the

958
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: mainstream is a real problem thanks to his book. So

959
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:05,279
Speaker 1: what we have in nineteen eighty is a situation where

960
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: evangelical Christian paranoia over the devil and the black arts

961
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: leaps over and starts to infect mainstream society. This would

962
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 1: come to have a terrible impact first on two families

963
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 1: in Bakersfield, California. And now we're finally into the satanic panic.

964
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: Ready excited? Yeah, yeah, I'm so excited. It's it's fucking awesome.

965
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 1: So these two families are the mccuen's and the knife

966
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: Ins or Niffins. Uh. And I'm gonna quote from a

967
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: write up in Religious Tolerance dot Org that kind of

968
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: goes over the basics of the case. The triggering incident

969
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 1: occurred in nineteen eighty when Becky mccouhen disclosed that her

970
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: grandfather Rod Phelps had touched her inappropriately. The family doctor

971
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: confirmed the abuse, no charges were late. Becky's mother, Debbie mccuhen,

972
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,719
Speaker 1: arranged for her daughter to obtain counseling, but Debbie's stepmother,

973
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 1: Mary Anne Barber, who is believed to have had a

974
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,839
Speaker 1: history of mental illness, felt that her stepdaughter granddaughters were

975
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 1: not being sufficiently protected. She obtained the assistance of the

976
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,880
Speaker 1: Mothers of Baker's Field, a group concerned about child abuse.

977
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: Jill had dad took particular interest in the case. She

978
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,880
Speaker 1: was the spokesperson for the group and had many relatives

979
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: working for local police forces. Miss Barbara claimed that Alvin

980
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 1: and Debbie mccuhen were not good parents and that Debbie's

981
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: daycare license should be revoked. She asked the Social Services

982
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: Department to make a surprise inspection. The social worker, Betty Palco,

983
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: found no major infractions and took no action to revoke

984
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: the license. So again, no actual evidence of serious child

985
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 1: abuse here, although I will say that mcwan's weren't exactly

986
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,719
Speaker 1: ace parents, because later that year they did take their

987
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: two daughters on a supervised visit to see their allegedly

988
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: abuse abuse of grandfather, and this caused Marianne to have

989
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: a psychotic episode which sent her to the psychiatric ward

990
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:41,080
Speaker 1: at a local hospital. She eventually succeeded in getting custody

991
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,760
Speaker 1: of the kids and convincing county officials to file child

992
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 1: endangerment charges against the mccuen's, But because she was not

993
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 1: at all well, Marianne took things a step further, and

994
00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: she had begun believing that the mccuhans were part of

995
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: a massive, insidious, satanic sex ring in Kern County. As

996
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 1: she told social workers, there's a group of people involved

997
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,359
Speaker 1: in molesting the girls. They're all in on it. So

998
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: you have one in a case of actual abuse to

999
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,799
Speaker 1: some parents who probably are not being as careful as

1000
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,200
Speaker 1: they need to be around, a guy who's dangerous and

1001
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: a woman who's maybe schizophrenic, definitely is mentally ill, and

1002
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: his hospitalized as a result. That who becomes convinced that,

1003
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: as opposed to a just a single act of of

1004
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,759
Speaker 1: child molestation by one guy there's a massive conspiracy to

1005
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 1: molest all of the kids in town. Um And unfortunately

1006
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: for a shipload of people. The social workers in Baker's

1007
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,799
Speaker 1: Field had been trained using the textbook Michelle remembers. So

1008
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 1: when this very ill woman starts claiming that there's a

1009
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,319
Speaker 1: massive network of satanic sex abusers in town, they believe her. Um.

1010
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: And by the time the social workers sat down with

1011
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 1: the kids, Becky and Don, both kids had spent months

1012
00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: listening to their very, very sick stepgrandmother tell them they

1013
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 1: had been the victims of a ring of ritual abusers.

1014
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: So these kids get repeatedly questioned and they confirm what

1015
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,919
Speaker 1: there's They basically parent what their step grandmother had told

1016
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: them to say, and over the months their disclosures become

1017
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: like weirder and weirder. They claimed that they had been

1018
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:04,320
Speaker 1: hung from sealing hooks, beaten with belts, rented to strangers

1019
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: and motels, and had been forced to act in kittie

1020
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: porn movies. They claimed they were abused by a sex

1021
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,200
Speaker 1: ring which involved their grandparents, their parents, their father's brothers,

1022
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 1: friends of their parents, uh and the social worker who

1023
00:54:14,880 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: did the inspection, a coworker of their father, and to

1024
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: one named welfare workers, and all these fucking people start

1025
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 1: catching charges and getting arrested and ship um, and their

1026
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: life just dynamites these people's lives, right, like, just just

1027
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,560
Speaker 1: based on this one testimony. Yeah, yeah, based on this

1028
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 1: woman and these kids who had been in her care

1029
00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 1: listening to her talk about But it's like, you know,

1030
00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: the thing I always think about things like this is

1031
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: like racism. Right, No one is born a racist. Kids

1032
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 1: become racist from hearing what they from parents usually, So

1033
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: it's the same kind of concept, right, they'll just repeat

1034
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: that exactly their kids, Like if you tell them as

1035
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: you tell your if you tell you're like three year old,

1036
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: over and over you were raped by the devil, like,

1037
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: they will look I guess I was. Yes. So the

1038
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: social worker and their father's coworker eventually had their charges

1039
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: dropped after their lawyer introduced Marianne's medical records into the trial.

1040
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: Was like, this woman has psychotic episodes and as paranoid

1041
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 1: and probably schizophrenic. Perhaps we need more than just your testimony, right,

1042
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 1: Not that those people can't testify when they're the victims

1043
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:20,000
Speaker 1: of abuse, but if you have them making lurid, wild

1044
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: allegations and there's no physical evidence for any of it.

1045
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 1: Perhaps you should not trust those allegations. Maybe, yeah, Um,

1046
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,560
Speaker 1: So this convinced the DA to try to drop those

1047
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:34,280
Speaker 1: two people's charges. But then the medical records were sealed

1048
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: and forbidden from being used by the defense for the

1049
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,120
Speaker 1: mccuen's and the Niffins, which is something else because again

1050
00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: all of the cops have bought into this too. So

1051
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,879
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote again from that that right up uh

1052
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 1: in Religious tolerance dot Org quote. The Niffin's sons, Brian

1053
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 1: and Brandon, were repeatedly and suggestively interrogated. The interviewers would

1054
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 1: describe a sex act and then act that asked the

1055
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: child to confirm or deny that it happened. When questions separately,

1056
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,240
Speaker 1: each was old falsely that their brother had disclosed abuse

1057
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 1: by both the parents and the rest of the sex ring.

1058
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 1: Brian and Brandon claimed that they were yelled at and

1059
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 1: terrorized by the interrogators. They were told that they could

1060
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:11,879
Speaker 1: go home again if they testified about the abuse. These

1061
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 1: manipulative and coercive interrogation methods are now known to generate

1062
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: false allegations. No fucking dar right yeah. Questioning in Baker's

1063
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: field went far beyond the definition of leading and was

1064
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,200
Speaker 1: in fact coercive, threatening and brainwashing of young children's is

1065
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: like a legal finding later. Unfortunately, in early nineteen eight three,

1066
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: basic research into child interview techniques was in its early stages.

1067
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: Direct questioning and manipulation of children was common practice. The

1068
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 1: Niffin boys finally caved in under the pressure and said

1069
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:45,080
Speaker 1: that abuse had occurred. So yeah. During a surprise supervised visit,

1070
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: Brandon Niffin was asked by his grandmother whether the charges

1071
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 1: were true. He answered, no, none of those things ever happened.

1072
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 1: The grandmother was arrested for discussing the case with her

1073
00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 1: grandchild when she brought this up. When she said, like, hey,

1074
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: he told me that he was lying because the interviewers

1075
00:56:57,719 --> 00:57:00,439
Speaker 1: terrorized him. It's like, he tells his grandmother they made

1076
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 1: me give a false confession. She goes to the judge

1077
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 1: and she gets arrested and is banned from testifying at

1078
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,839
Speaker 1: trial and has her right to having custody visits like

1079
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: terminated for years. Because again, all of the people in

1080
00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: the legal system believe all this ship and have to

1081
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 1: seem like, oh, she's got to be part of it,

1082
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:20,880
Speaker 1: because she's trying to like there. It's so it's unbelievably

1083
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 1: fucked up. They just they just with each other, right,

1084
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Yeah, yeah, it's fascinating. Actually, yeah, it's it's

1085
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 1: incredibly like there's a lot that like that is and

1086
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: should be studied about this period of time because it

1087
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: says so much that's very frightening about human psychology. It's

1088
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: that crowd like it's very scary. Yeah, yep, exactly, Like

1089
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,360
Speaker 1: it's a lot of the same stuff that makes fascism work, right,

1090
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:50,080
Speaker 1: it's just like the way people are and the way

1091
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: people act in groups, um, and the way people act

1092
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: when they are in a group and all get scared

1093
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: of the same thing, right, Yeah. Uh so both Niffin

1094
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,840
Speaker 1: boys later recanted entirely and stated that they've been coerced

1095
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:05,439
Speaker 1: to testify, and they testified again in nineteen ninety six

1096
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 1: after the end of the Satanic Panic, and we're able

1097
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 1: to convince a judge to overturn both sets of convictions.

1098
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,000
Speaker 1: But again, like the Niffins, like their parents, has been

1099
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: like a decade plus in prison along with the mccohen's

1100
00:58:15,560 --> 00:58:20,440
Speaker 1: like like four people in prison for years and years joking. No,

1101
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 1: it's like it's unbearably fucked up. There's a partial happy

1102
00:58:26,880 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 1: ending here because the Niffins, like once the kids like

1103
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: realized what had happened to have been done to them

1104
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,200
Speaker 1: and testified, like they got to be a family with

1105
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: their parents again. The mccohen's never did, because both Becky

1106
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: and Down continued to maintain that their testimony was true,

1107
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,600
Speaker 1: and it's almost certain that both children had false memories

1108
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 1: forced on them as a result of improper interrogation methods.

1109
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: But the family never fucking healed. Um, it's deeply bad.

1110
00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: That's the side of the Satanic panic. You don't really

1111
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:57,320
Speaker 1: hear a lot about. It's like it's kind of funny

1112
00:58:57,320 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: the whole things, Like, oh yeah, it's so stupid. But

1113
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 1: then like I was doing research for this this podcast

1114
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 1: episode the other day and it's like wow, Like, I mean,

1115
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: one woman in the Italian case I was looking at

1116
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: like a mother, she just killed usself. And it's just

1117
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:10,320
Speaker 1: like you just couldn't handle it, right, It's like all

1118
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 1: based on literally nothing, nothing at all. It ruins people. Um,

1119
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean, the same thing in a different way is

1120
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: happening with Q and on. Right, Like you have hundreds

1121
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: of families at least that have been torn apart by

1122
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 1: this sort of stuff. It's fucked it's super fucked um

1123
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 1: and it kind of if you kind of look at

1124
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,720
Speaker 1: what happens with the book Michelle remembers and how it

1125
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 1: helps both spark the satanic panic and how it infests

1126
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: you know, this this system for dealing with child to

1127
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 1: bease that we talked about, it's almost like an infection

1128
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 1: that comes into it and deal all these problems and

1129
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: it suddenly become actively toxic. And yeah, it did not

1130
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 1: stay limited to Kern County out near Baker's Field. The

1131
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: case of the mccuon and the Niffin families was just

1132
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,480
Speaker 1: the beginning in nineteen eighty three. Not long after there

1133
00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 1: and after their initial conviction Evince in another part of

1134
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 1: southern California. We're about to take the nation by storm.

1135
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: And next episode we're gonna talk about the mcmah in

1136
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: preschool trial, which is the longest, most expensive trial in

1137
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: US history and one of the most fucked up things

1138
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:10,959
Speaker 1: I've ever read about in my entire life. You're happy

1139
01:00:08,960 --> 01:00:19,400
Speaker 1: to read, Uh, you want to plug some ship. Yeah,

1140
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: it's just the podcast right like Q Clearance is out

1141
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: now obviously with you guys um. Popular Front is always

1142
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: around popular Front dot cr um. One thing I do

1143
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: want to say though, is like, especially considering this copic,

1144
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: you know, I've done a lot of research into like

1145
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: various kind of child abuse scandals, and the thing is

1146
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 1: like they do exist, and even some of the more

1147
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: lurid insane stories have happened for real, but on a

1148
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: way that where it's like it's nowhere near as ritualistic

1149
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: or movie like, you know. So there's a great example

1150
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: that people to look into, um, like the Monster of Belgium,

1151
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 1: a guy called Mark the Troll, and like he would

1152
01:00:55,320 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: just had this horrific kind of child abuse scandal thing

1153
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 1: where he was like snapping children for higher and it

1154
01:01:02,080 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: involves like some of the most yeah, involves some of

1155
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: the most high level politicians. This isn't a conspiracy, like,

1156
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,360
Speaker 1: but it's one of the least known ones. Because stupid

1157
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: stuff like this gets the hearing right, the more sensational,

1158
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 1: the more easy to understand. Satanic stuff is what people

1159
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,040
Speaker 1: are queuing on often put out. Meanwhile, people are doing

1160
01:01:21,120 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: very dark things and it kind of goes by the

1161
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,560
Speaker 1: wayside because obviously real life is a little bit more

1162
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: kind of intricate and confusing, you know, and it's it's

1163
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 1: a real shame. It's this fucking thing that happens in

1164
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: the Satanic panic too. Were like no, like we could

1165
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: all there is a conspiracy to traffic people who are

1166
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: legally children, rich and doubtful. Like it absolutely happened, it

1167
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,160
Speaker 1: probably still is, but like focused on that, not this

1168
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,840
Speaker 1: is not Michelle's whatever the hell, it's cool. Well, it's weird.

1169
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:52,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that like the things that go

1170
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:55,400
Speaker 1: viral are always like to focus on tiny, tiny kids,

1171
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: which are very it's very uncommon for like two and

1172
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: three and four year olds to be molested. It's like

1173
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: it's like like yeah, it's yeah, men fucking teenagers, right,

1174
01:02:05,040 --> 01:02:09,520
Speaker 1: Like that's that's bad. It's right terrible and it doesn't

1175
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: make it any better. But again it's like this is

1176
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,440
Speaker 1: the issue, right, It's like when you have people like

1177
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 1: t and On specifically, one of my biggest problems with

1178
01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: them is that they make people just go, oh, that's

1179
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:20,880
Speaker 1: just queue and on stuff, and a lot of it

1180
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:23,680
Speaker 1: is just nonsense doing on stuff. But in between that,

1181
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,760
Speaker 1: there's things that really need to be looked out for

1182
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 1: the safe of the victims, you know, and it's like, thanks,

1183
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: You've completely destroyed any relevance because you're making things up

1184
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: all the time. It's yeah, I mean I get why,

1185
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:38,920
Speaker 1: Like it just come out the Virginia Jeffrey, I think

1186
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: her name is pronounced, who's one of the Epstein victims,

1187
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 1: and like she's the one I can't blame for it

1188
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: because it's like, yeah, you were part of a giant

1189
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: sex abuse like conspiracy, right, and even that now it

1190
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,640
Speaker 1: makes you think it's like not to say you want

1191
01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: to believe of it. Now some people will just go, oh, exactly,

1192
01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: I've heard it to do with you, and they won't

1193
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: look any deep. It's fun. It's all. Everything is horrible. Um,

1194
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: thanks for listening to the podcast. People. We'll be back

1195
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 1: on Thursday with some of the worst stories you've ever

1196
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: heard in your life. Yeah, h h h