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Speaker 1: and joining me now is somebody I've known a long time,

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Speaker 1: somebody that I've would feature as much as possible in

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Speaker 1: my NBC days. He founder of the Iraq and Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: Veterans of America. He had been a fierce advocate and

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Speaker 1: still is a fierce advocate for veterans and when it

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Speaker 1: appears the VA is not giving our returning soldiers the

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Speaker 1: care and attention that they need, and he owes a

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Speaker 1: terrific podcast Independence that's focused really on as he calls

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Speaker 1: himself the angry middle, or he wants to be representative

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Speaker 1: of the angry middle. As you know, that's sort of

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Speaker 1: I think of politics from the middle out. I call

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Speaker 1: myself an incrementalist. Paul calls himself an independent representing the

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Speaker 1: angry middle. So that's going to be a lion's share

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Speaker 1: of our conversation.

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Speaker 2: We did a home and away. I was in his podcast.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this month, so I appreciate him return in the

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Speaker 1: favor to me, mister Raikoff.

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Speaker 3: Good to see man, Good.

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Speaker 2: To see you, Chuck. I really appreciated you coming on mine.

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Speaker 2: We had a great super Bowl conversation too. Yeah we

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Speaker 2: did hear you talk about politics, but when you talk

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Speaker 2: about football, it's even better.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, you know, maybe even pocketed a couple

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Speaker 1: of bucks.

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Speaker 2: A very conventional wisdom. Super Bowl.

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Speaker 1: It sort of went exactly like every expert said it

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Speaker 1: would go.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, it was also you know, it was

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Speaker 2: a really good team super Bowl, and maybe that's more

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Speaker 2: of what we need in America right now. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it was old school blocking and tackling. I told my sons,

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Speaker 2: like you though, I've got two young boys who play football.

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Speaker 2: That was the best blocking game I've seen in a

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Speaker 2: long time. Seattle is a really good blocking team working

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Speaker 2: together eleven people, and that's kind of more what we

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Speaker 2: need in America right now.

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Speaker 1: Well that that, well, this is why I'm a I've

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Speaker 1: always been a such a huge advocate of football, almost

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Speaker 1: more so than every other team sport, because you know,

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Speaker 1: you really have to row in the same direction. You

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Speaker 1: have to have eleven guys doing their job. You cannot

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Speaker 1: you can. You can have a basketball team where four

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Speaker 1: guys slack off. You can have a baseball team where

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Speaker 1: there a few guys slack off. You cannot have in football.

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Speaker 1: And it's just it is such an important life skill

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Speaker 1: to get across, which is why I'm happy to see

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Speaker 1: flag football, which creates more gender opportunities, gender equity there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I just think the whole concept of football

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Speaker 1: is so team oriented. More so that it is. It

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Speaker 1: is a great teaching tool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it requires selflessness at a time when most sports

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Speaker 2: are really about individuals. And look at me, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I've coached football for many years, played football, played in college,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think that there's anything like it because

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Speaker 2: it requires sacrifice, it requires teamwork. It requires cooperation and

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Speaker 2: requires forward planning. It's obviously strategic in terms of field

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Speaker 2: position and all the other elements, but I think it's

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Speaker 2: the ultimate team game. And I've played rugby, I've played baseball,

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Speaker 2: I've coached a lot of sports. It's very hard to

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Speaker 2: teach young people because it's so complicated, but I think

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Speaker 2: it really instills the values, and I think it reflects

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Speaker 2: the cooperation and teamwork we need and democra You know,

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Speaker 2: football is a lot like democracy. If we don't figure

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Speaker 2: out a way to work together, things can get brutal

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Speaker 2: real quick. And I feel like our democracy looks like

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Speaker 2: Drake may under constant pressure and getting hit from all sides.

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Speaker 1: Oh right, we have no left side of the offensive

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Speaker 1: line right at four, guys, I mean.

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Speaker 3: The left side's gone, the right side's gone, and we

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Speaker 3: got to depend on the middle.

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Speaker 1: Hey, before we leave football, since you coached it and

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Speaker 1: you watch it in a in a way that's probably

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Speaker 1: not just from a fan perspective, it really does seem

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Speaker 1: like in the last forty eight months, both in college

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Speaker 1: and the pros, which is defense is not just caught

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Speaker 1: up to offense. But I think we're now in a mode.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was. You look at the college football

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Speaker 1: playoff and look Miami in Indiana one because of their defense.

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Speaker 3: That's why they got to that finals.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was it was and you could say, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if a little better offensive performance by Miami,

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Speaker 1: maybe they win that game. But the point being is

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Speaker 1: that the defenses were the domin minute. You know, Ole

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Speaker 1: Miss didn't have one. That's why they they were limited

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Speaker 1: in how far they could go. And we see it

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Speaker 1: in what happened in the NFL this year where it

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Speaker 1: was the defensive teams and by the way, two defensive

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Speaker 1: coaches making it to the Super Bowl, which might be

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Speaker 1: a first.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd build on that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, defense gets you to the championship,

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Speaker 2: but defense is not the difference in the championship. And

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Speaker 2: I think we've seen that in both the college game

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Speaker 2: and in the pro game. And what I would tell

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Speaker 2: you is it ultimately comes down to leadership, and it

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Speaker 2: ultimately comes down to the quarterback, and it comes down

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Speaker 2: to the quarterback who's not going to make the great play,

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Speaker 2: but the quarterback who makes the bad play. And we

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Speaker 2: saw that in the Indiana game. You know, and you're

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Speaker 2: Carson Beck, I was not made a bad play and

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Speaker 2: Mendoza didn't, everything else being equal, if Carson Beck makes

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Speaker 2: those plays and Mendoza doesn't, it goes the other way.

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Speaker 2: Drake may had an opportunity to make the game close.

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Speaker 2: You know, in the third quarter, he throws a pick.

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Speaker 2: He makes some bad throws, So I think it really

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Speaker 2: there's nothing like being a quarterback.

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Speaker 3: On a football field.

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Speaker 2: In leadership, it's kind of like elected office or an

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Speaker 2: executive functioning. Think about a president or a governor. It's

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Speaker 2: all eyes on the quarterback. And the quarterback is important too,

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Speaker 2: because he doesn't just have to know his job. He

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Speaker 2: has to know all eleven people's jobs every single time

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Speaker 2: and has to be the ultimate coordinator. That's why, frankly,

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Speaker 2: I'm excited about Mendoza as a role model for our culture.

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Speaker 2: If this kid runs for political office, and I hope

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Speaker 2: he runs as an independent, he's exactly the kind of

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Speaker 2: leader that people need. He's selfless, he's humble, he's kind.

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Speaker 2: He's an example of the kind of leader that we need.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad that he especially was elevated during during this

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Speaker 2: last couple of weeks.

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Speaker 1: I'm with you, there's something you know, sometimes some guys

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Speaker 1: are too good to be true, and you're like, boy,

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Speaker 1: I hope I'm not missing something here. Let me go

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Speaker 1: a little bit. I know a little bit of your

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Speaker 1: origin story, but I don't know if all my all

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Speaker 1: my listeners do. How'd you get into the military, Why

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Speaker 1: did you? And this is what you're doing now? What's

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Speaker 1: an alternative path that you thought you'd be doing twenty

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Speaker 1: years ago?

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Speaker 3: Wow?

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Speaker 2: Well, twenty years ago, I guess I was already out

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Speaker 2: of college and the football dream was gone. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I did not expect this kind of winding path. But

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Speaker 2: it started with my time in the military, and it

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Speaker 2: started with a sense of service. My father was drafted

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Speaker 2: during Vietnam. My grandfather was drafted during World War Two

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Speaker 2: and spent three years in the South Pacific. And I

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Speaker 2: thought that was how everybody's family was when I was

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Speaker 2: growing up, your third generation there, I am. But you

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Speaker 2: know I was the first to volunteer, which I think

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Speaker 2: is also a reflection of our times, right. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I came from an immigrant family. My grandfather immigrated from

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Speaker 2: Germany and spoke no English. My grandmother on the other side,

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Speaker 2: came from Hungary and spoke no English. But that generation

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Speaker 2: they all served. My other grandmother had eleven brothers and

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Speaker 2: sisters had nine brothers. All nine brothers served, all Italian

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Speaker 2: Americans from the Bronx. They all served. So I came

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Speaker 2: from a community and a fam, a working class background,

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Speaker 2: where service was pretty much expected. I was the first

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Speaker 2: one that didn't have to go, but I wanted to go.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to give back. I wanted I felt like

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Speaker 2: I owed it to my family and to my community

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Speaker 2: and to my country. Because I was the first one

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Speaker 2: that didn't have to go. I got to go to college,

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Speaker 2: I got to play football, I got a great education.

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Speaker 2: But I really wanted to give something back, and it

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Speaker 2: came down to either the Peace Corps or the military.

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Speaker 2: I viewed them both as ways to give back. And

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Speaker 2: the military, you know, I wanted to jump out of

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Speaker 2: airplanes and blow stuff up. And I also wanted to

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Speaker 2: challenge myself in a way that I had never been

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Speaker 2: tested before.

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Speaker 3: And I think I got a lot of that. But

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Speaker 3: it also sparked in me in understanding that politics.

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Speaker 2: Impacts all of us, and maybe no more so acutely

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Speaker 2: than when you're in the military. There's nothing more serious

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Speaker 2: our politics can do than send young men and women

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Speaker 2: to war, and that's what pulled me into activism. That's

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Speaker 2: what pulled me into this work, and frankly still drives me. Now.

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Speaker 2: I want to fight for our country. I want to

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Speaker 2: fight for our democracy in whatever way I can. And

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Speaker 2: instead of a rifle, now I've got a microphone.

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Speaker 1: What kind of scarred at Vietnam? Leave for your father?

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Speaker 1: Because Vietnam scarred my father and he didn't serve, and

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you the story in a minute, But what

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Speaker 1: kind of scar did that lead?

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Speaker 3: So my father got very lucky.

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Speaker 2: He got drafted in nineteen sixty eight, but did not

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Speaker 2: get sent to Vietnam, so he got sent to Europe.

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Speaker 2: But you know, plenty of his buddies in the Bronx,

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Speaker 2: you know, were killed guys he went to high school.

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Speaker 2: He always told me the story of when how he

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Speaker 2: found out he was getting drafted. My grandfather pulled out

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Speaker 2: an envelope and he felt in the bottom of the

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Speaker 2: envelope it was from the government. There was a subway

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Speaker 2: token in it, and if you felt the subway token,

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Speaker 2: you knew you were getting drafted. And my grandfather looked

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Speaker 2: at my father and said, Paulie, you're getting drafted.

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Speaker 3: For Vietnam, right, and that was the way they found out.

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Speaker 3: I think the really important thing, though, even more.

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Speaker 2: Than the scarring, was there was a social accountability. Everybody

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Speaker 2: felt like they had skin in the game, except you know,

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Speaker 2: for Donald Trump and some of the elites who got

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Speaker 2: out of it. But there was an understanding that we

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Speaker 2: were all in this together and there was that shared sacrifice.

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Speaker 2: So my grandfather and my father will talk about the

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Speaker 2: hard times, but they also talk about the unity. They

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Speaker 2: talk about the diversity in different terms. They don't say diversity,

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Speaker 2: but they all got out of a train together. They

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Speaker 2: all went to basic together, and then they all went

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Speaker 2: across the country. And my father's best man in his

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Speaker 2: wedding was a guy who served in the army with

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Speaker 2: from Chicago. They never knew each other until they went

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Speaker 2: in the army. So those relationships, I think are really

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Speaker 2: important and maybe a bit of the silver lining from

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Speaker 2: those times that we're missing right now, that social connection,

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Speaker 2: that cohesion. But I've also worked with countless Vietnam bets.

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Speaker 2: The scars are significant and I think also cresting now

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Speaker 2: in some ways, Chuck that people don't understand the suicide

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Speaker 2: rate is now over seventeen per day, and many of

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Speaker 2: them are older veterans. They're suffering from agent orange and

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Speaker 2: tox and exposures. Mental health, COVID has been hard. They

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Speaker 2: deal with isolation and economic stress. And I think these

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Speaker 2: times are compounding a lot of things for veterans that

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Speaker 2: are making it especially tough.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Look, my dad's best friend, he had a sort ofast

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Speaker 1: few years of his childhood were kind of a mess

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Speaker 1: with his father in particular, his mother. And his best friend,

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Speaker 1: who's about a year or two older, dies in training

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Speaker 1: in Pensacola after being drafted, and it just it made

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Speaker 1: him obsessed with not going, and it made him obsessed

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Speaker 1: it and in fact, he ended up. He will say

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Speaker 1: that the reason he became a Republican is he blamed

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Speaker 1: Johnson for killing his best friend.

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Speaker 3: That's how he viewed it.

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Speaker 2: He did.

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Speaker 1: He viewed it very personally, and there were so many

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Speaker 1: You're not alone right these different ways. By the way,

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Speaker 1: the other thing that I was it sort of it's

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Speaker 1: made me And I'm curious how you feel about certain

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Speaker 1: active I'll just tell you the person Richard Blumenthal. When

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Speaker 1: Richard Blumenthal said he couldn't remember everything about his about

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Speaker 1: his draft status. When my dad died, I found a

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Speaker 1: foul folder of every single piece of paper, every thing

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Speaker 1: he needed to know about his draft status, about eligibility.

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Speaker 1: And at first he was able, he was not eligible,

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Speaker 1: and then he became elgron. He just ended up getting

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Speaker 1: a high lottery number and he didn't have to get picked.

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Speaker 1: But I remember thinking, and it was sort of one

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Speaker 1: of those things that sixteen year old me said, you know,

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Speaker 1: anybody of the Vietnam era, if they tell you, oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember how it happened, I don't remember bullshit

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Speaker 1: you were.

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Speaker 3: My father was obsessed with it.

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Speaker 2: He had a whole and he kept it all. He

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Speaker 2: saved it all. He had felt like he had have

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Speaker 2: all his record with him.

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Speaker 1: So I've always found the easiest way to find out

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Speaker 1: who a lying politician was from that was of eligible

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Speaker 1: to serve in Vietnam. When they tell you they're not

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Speaker 1: quite sure, they think they got this, they think they

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Speaker 1: got that. They don't want to tell you the details.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, every guy I know who got drafted and remembers

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Speaker 2: that moment they know their lottery anything about it, right, Yeah? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, my father talked about it, and

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Speaker 2: he knew when his buddies in high school went. You know,

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Speaker 2: I think there's also something interesting about Vietnam check with

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Speaker 2: regard to our politics, is the Vietnam veterans took so

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Speaker 2: much of that angst and frustration and disillusionment, and they

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Speaker 2: took it on personally in a way that we never have.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if any generation of American veterans

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Speaker 2: has right. That was a generation where the country confused

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Speaker 2: the people with the politics, and I think it manifested

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Speaker 2: itself in so many ways all the way through to

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Speaker 2: the fact that they might be the only generation of

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Speaker 2: veterans that never had a president. They came close, and

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Speaker 2: I talked to John McCain and other folks about this.

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Speaker 2: There was a point where you had John McCain was

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Speaker 2: a presidential candidate, John Kerry was a presidential candidate. At

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Speaker 2: one point, I think there were three Vietnam veterans in

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Speaker 2: Obama's cabinet. You had Shinseki, Hegel and Carry and the

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Speaker 2: number of Vietnam bets said, you know, we came close,

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Speaker 2: but we never got the White House.

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Speaker 1: It's the strangest thing, and I wonder if it really

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Speaker 1: is that they were that the public view of Vietnam

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Speaker 1: veteran is too politically scarred to lead. Maybe they didn't

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Speaker 1: say it that way.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of different evolutions if you think

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Speaker 2: about like when Bob Carey was a presidential candidate, He's

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Speaker 2: a friend and mentor and a Medal of Honor recipient. Right,

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Speaker 2: we were much more conflicted about it, even talking about

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Speaker 2: Bill Clinton's lack.

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Speaker 1: Of velo and Bob carry story only got more complicated

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Speaker 1: the more we learned about his Medal of Honor, you know, right.

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Speaker 3: Right, But I think the insight is that.

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Speaker 2: The political trajectory of Vietnam veterans is a reflection of

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Speaker 2: the way the country processed all of it. And at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, they never elected a Vietnam

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Speaker 2: better Now, now flip that around. Now we've got a

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Speaker 2: vice president who is the first post nine to eleven

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Speaker 2: veteran in jd.

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Speaker 3: Vance.

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Speaker 2: Trump has loaded up his cabinet with veterans. The Democrats.

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Speaker 2: I have Reuben Diego on my show today. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he's a post nine to eleven veteran. We have long

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Speaker 2: said that we think we will have a post nine

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Speaker 2: to eleven veteran in the White House. You'll probably have

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Speaker 2: a couple, and you can envision any number of scenarios

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Speaker 2: Pete XXth to Wes Moore, everybody in between. There's a

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Speaker 2: unique moment for them to meet right now. And also

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Speaker 2: I think reset the way the country understands service.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised that the scars from Iraq and Afghanistan

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Speaker 1: and didn't hit our politics the same way Vietnam did?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I think we're still processing it, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a different part of our politics,

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Speaker 2: which is we were the first generation that went to

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Speaker 2: war while most of America lived life uninterrupted. Right we

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Speaker 2: were the first pro tact shop of the all volunteer military.

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Speaker 2: So I think we're still processing now when Trump can

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Speaker 2: strike Venezuela or talk about hitting Iran because it's other

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Speaker 2: people's children. And I think that maybe that is one

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Speaker 2: of the most important things to understand about this time,

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Speaker 2: is that the all volunteer military is great for the military,

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Speaker 2: but I would argue it's terrible for our democracy because

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Speaker 2: there is no social connectivity, there is no backstop. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I work so much with independent veterans, because

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Speaker 2: they don't want to pick a side, right, So many

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Speaker 2: of them view themselves as country first, and they're like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm wearing a camouflaged uniform. I don't want to choose

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Speaker 2: blue or I want to keep camouflage.

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Speaker 3: I want to stay true.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's very exciting to understand that so

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Speaker 2: many of them are there and they want to serve,

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Speaker 2: especially in this moment. So I think we're still processing it,

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Speaker 2: processing nine to eleven, processing the manipulation.

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Speaker 3: Around the Iraq War, and even you know, rewriting history.

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Speaker 2: If you look at someone like Hegseth, you know he's

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Speaker 2: talking about Iraq and Afghanistan in very different terms. He's

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Speaker 2: talking about being okay with leaving the Geneva Convention, being

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Speaker 2: okay with getting out of NATO, stuff that would have

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Speaker 2: been unimaginable even just twenty years ago. And he could

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Speaker 2: do it in part because he's kind of cloaked in

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Speaker 2: that veterans status. And I think both parties use it.

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Speaker 2: They understand that veterans are uniquely powerful politically, but so far,

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Speaker 2: for the most part, they've also been proxies for both parties,

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Speaker 2: and that may be true all the way to the

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty eight election, where you could have a Democrat

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Speaker 2: and Republican VET against each other.

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Speaker 2: in my view, has been extremely focused and extremely effective,

438
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 2: and in his view, he wanted to transform the way

439
00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 2: the country operated, and the most important place to start

440
00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 2: was the Pentagon. That's why he nominated Hegseet first, a

441
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:44,880
Speaker 2: person that many of us know and thought would never

442
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 2: get through a Senate confirmation hearing. But he threw the

443
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 2: long ball and he got heg Set through and that

444
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 2: really bust open a hole for Tulsea Gabbard and Kennedy

445
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 2: and so many others that would have normally seemed like

446
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: a long shot. But they went for the Pentagon first

447
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,560
Speaker 2: because it's the most powerful, it's the biggest budget, it's

448
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 2: got trmendous cultural influence, it's easy to move.

449
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 3: And it's where the guns are.

450
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 2: So when they secured the Pentagon, it was kind of

451
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: the first chess piece on the board, and that allowed

452
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: them to put in place, in my view, a culture war,

453
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: because that's what hexth is. And if you want to

454
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,680
Speaker 2: wage culture war, you started the Pentagon and you move outward.

455
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 2: So I'm very concerned because the Pentagon is how Trump

456
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,959
Speaker 2: wants the rest of the world to look that is

457
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 2: more male, more white, less diverse, less politically diverse, which

458
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 2: is maybe the most alarming. We don't want it to

459
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 2: be a maga army, but if you continue to drive

460
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 2: people away who don't feel welcome, it will increasingly become

461
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: politically monolithic.

462
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 3: It'll become gender monolithic. And we see that already.

463
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 2: So you can goose the numbers in the beginning and say, hey,

464
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 2: we've got tremendous recruiting, but that is not sustainable over time,

465
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 2: and you have to ask a question of quality, right,

466
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: what kind of military are we building? And the reality

467
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 2: is people can see what Ice looks like. The military

468
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: is more and more looking like Ice, but you don't

469
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 2: see them they're military.

470
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna say, the Ice recruit, Look, you recruit,

471
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,080
Speaker 1: how you recruit is what type of force you're going

472
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: to build?

473
00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: Right?

474
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: And those Ice recruitment videos, excuse me, where they where?

475
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: They specifically addressed blue cities. I remember, you know, I'm

476
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: we started our conversation with football. I'm a obsessive college

477
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: football guy. And what was interesting this fall is how

478
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: often you'd see during these football games, whatever market was

479
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: the primary market of whatever team lived it would, you know.

480
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: So you're watching a University of Washington game, you get

481
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 1: this ad that said, hey, Seattle law enforcement, are you

482
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 1: tired of not being able to do your job right?

483
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: It's this, it's this sort of negative pitch.

484
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: You know, well, guess what if you come to Ice,

485
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,080
Speaker 1: We're going to first of all, throw a bunch of

486
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: money at you. Fifty grand signing bonus, which is that's

487
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,240
Speaker 1: a big chunk of change. That's that is that gets

488
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 1: you out of debt. That's a that's a get me

489
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: out of student debt. That's a right size, that's a

490
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 1: down payment on a house, that's a it's life changing.

491
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: Fifty grand is is both is a lot of money

492
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, and it can it can alter,

493
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: it can it can accelerate a path in life. But

494
00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: you're recruiting them on this you don't get to do

495
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: your job, And essentially you're saying it's it's going to

496
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: appeal to a certain type of law enforcement official. Are

497
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,400
Speaker 1: you seeing those same tactics in military?

498
00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,080
Speaker 3: And it should?

499
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: Are more of our friends in the press corps missing

500
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 1: a story here?

501
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, you know I've long said that Trump

502
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: wants to transform society. He wants to transform the Western hemisphere,

503
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: and he'd probably love to transform the whole world. And

504
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,199
Speaker 2: if you want to see what it looks like, it

505
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 2: does look like the Department of Defense. And let me

506
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 2: go a step deeper. Things like book banning. Right, when

507
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: they decide what books they want to ban, they can

508
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: do them at military schools, because the military has to

509
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 2: do what you say, right, And it's not like you're

510
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 2: going to go with the Cincinnati or into Miami and

511
00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 2: have a debate with the school board. If the Secretary

512
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: of Defense is these books are gone, they're gone. They

513
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 2: can restrict women's rights, they can restrict abortion access, they

514
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: can change recruiting quotas, so they can move the edges

515
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: in ways that will transform the complexion of what the

516
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,400
Speaker 2: military looks like. And yes, I think the most important,

517
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: one of the most important stories is that the military

518
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 2: is becoming more partisan.

519
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 3: It's becoming more.

520
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: Politicized, in part because it's built in the image of Hegseth,

521
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: who in my view, is the most overtly political Secretary

522
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:34,440
Speaker 2: of Defense we've ever had.

523
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 3: I do think he's a culture warrior.

524
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 2: He's got an ideological approach to the way he wants

525
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 2: to transform not just the military, but our culture. That

526
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: includes an emphasis on Chaplains. For example, if you hear

527
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: Hegseth talk, he's not doing Jewish prayers, he's not talking

528
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: to agnostics and atheists.

529
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,880
Speaker 3: It is Christianity. It is a lot of white men.

530
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,680
Speaker 2: It has really attacked diversity, and they openly say they

531
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 2: want to destroy DEI. I think it's important for people

532
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: to understand that the first real DEI initiative in modern

533
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 2: times was for veterans. There's a veteran's preference in hiring

534
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,320
Speaker 2: at the Pentagon, at the VA, across the entire federal government.

535
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 3: But that's a water's edge that they haven't hit yet.

536
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: So I do think the overall transformation of the Pentagon

537
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 2: is very, very important. And I think the biggest story

538
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 2: in America, and I've said this to anybody I can

539
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 2: talk to, is that Donald Trump can do anything he

540
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 2: wants with the most powerful military the world has ever seen,

541
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 2: and nothing stopping it. He can bomb Ron, he can

542
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 2: send them into American cities, he can remove women from

543
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: combat arms. He can do anything he wants with this military,

544
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 2: and almost nothing has stopped him. And the Congress, in

545
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 2: my view, has completely abdicated their responsibility, and I do

546
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 2: think that the press Corps especially has a failure of

547
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 2: imagination around what he can do with the military to

548
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: the most immediate threat, which I would argue is the

549
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 2: Insurrection Act. He can invoke the Insurrection Act at any minute.

550
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: The Congress won't stop him. He'll send the eleventh there

551
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,439
Speaker 2: worn Core into for example, Minneapolis, and Congress will be

552
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: protesting afterward. But the eleventh, the Airborn Court, will be

553
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: in Minneapolis in the same way he's deployed Ice in

554
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,000
Speaker 2: the same way he's deployed federalized troops in other places.

555
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: And I think that will be a very important break

556
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: class moment for our country.

557
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 1: So it sounds like that what you're saying is that

558
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: more people are to see what's happening right now. It's

559
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: really hard to report on the military. I mean, look

560
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 1: what they just did to the Stars and Stripes publication.

561
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's in part hard to report

562
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: in the military because they're totally stone walling the press.

563
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 3: They've removed the Pentagon Press Corps.

564
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 2: They've replaced it with what I call the Propaganda Press Corps,

565
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 2: which is Laura Lumer.

566
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,439
Speaker 3: It's hard to call guys TV Network.

567
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: Right, But even this, Chuck, they haven't done a press

568
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: conference with them in two months.

569
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,400
Speaker 3: Right, they haven't even done one with them.

570
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: And so some of these right wing activists Matt Gates

571
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,240
Speaker 2: and others are pissed off because they're not getting information

572
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: and they're not getting access. So I do think again

573
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: that their war on the press started in the Pentagon,

574
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: where they came after guys like Don Lemon. They were

575
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 2: removing the pre depending on press corps and kicking out

576
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 2: the Washington Post. And it's all in coordination because if

577
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 2: there is no oversight over where you're moving troops or

578
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 2: even when troops die, right, we're not getting casualty reports

579
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 2: about where troops are dying, how many are wounded, how

580
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: they're doing, and not to mention, they struck another boat

581
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 2: last night off the coast of Venezuela, Right, and there

582
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,719
Speaker 2: was a survivor, Chuck, let me give you an example.

583
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: There was a survivor. We don't know who that survivor is,

584
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: we don't know where they've gone, we don't know if

585
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: they've been interrogated. It just kind of goes away, and

586
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: we still haven't had the conversations about war crimes and accountability.

587
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 2: So I think the number one focal point for everybody

588
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: should be national security because it's where they've got the nukes,

589
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 2: it's where they've got the tanks, it's where they've got

590
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: the National Guard, and it's where they literally could put

591
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 2: troops on your corner if they want to.

592
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,680
Speaker 1: It's literally the most dangerous part of government if it

593
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: gets partisanized.

594
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's the biggest weapon that can be used.

595
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: And even not just not just partisanized, chuck, but totally unchecked.

596
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

597
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, you know, if you've got to Let's

598
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: say he's whimsical at best. If Trump decides he wants

599
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 2: to strike Mexico, he will do it, and then Congress

600
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: and Blumenthal and everyone else will whind about it afterward. Right,

601
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 2: I mean, he is all gas and no breaks, and

602
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 2: nothing is slowing him down. Even for example, when the

603
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: courts ruled in Washington, d c. That the National Guard

604
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 2: deployments were illegal, they claim they filed for an extension

605
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: because the two National Guard troops were shot in the

606
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 2: head and they got it. So those National Guard troops

607
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: are still in DC. Right, So he can even push

608
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 2: away the courts, find an excuse, find a reason. And

609
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 2: I think the overall strategic landscape that people need to

610
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: understand is he continues to push with the military n

611
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 2: ice and kind of toggle deeper and further without any

612
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 2: real block or slow down from Congress or anyone else.

613
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: The only thing stopping him is himself and maybe Chairman

614
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 2: of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Dan Kane, who might

615
00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: be the single most important person in America because he's

616
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: probably the only one stopping Trump from doing whatever else

617
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 2: he wants to do.

618
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: What's what we saw with Milly in the first turn, right,

619
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like Millie has become a

620
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 1: polarizing figure to some where simply he was just trying

621
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: to preserve preserve norms. Like he didn't do anything outwardly politically.

622
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: He was just trying to preserve the apolitical status of

623
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 1: the US uniformed military.

624
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: I mean, there's an old saying in the Marine Corps,

625
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: no better friend, no worse enemy, and I think that

626
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: that is true in politics when it comes to veterans. Right,

627
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: if you've got Pete, hegseth on your side, and you

628
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 2: can wrap him in the American flag and he can

629
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: do lots of pull ups, and he can talk the

630
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: tough talk. He's a very formidable political actor. And let's

631
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: use the flip side. He got somebody like Senator Mark Kelly,

632
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: who Trump is focusing on because he's uniquely effective, because

633
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: he's an act at because also, I think an underreported story, Chuck,

634
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: if you can shut up Mark Kelly, you can send

635
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: a chilling effect across two million military retirees in America,

636
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 2: because they don't just want to shut up Mark Kelly,

637
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 2: they want to shut up me any other veteran who

638
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: can be uniquely effective in pushing back on any of

639
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: these issues we've talked about. So I think it's really

640
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: important to note that in this term especially, Trump has

641
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: been extremely strategic, and I think he's on plan, or

642
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 2: even ahead of plan. Imagine how far he'd be if

643
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: Hegseth wasn't screwing up all the time, right, I mean,

644
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: imagine how much further they would be toward their goals.

645
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty five for Trump, in my view, was

646
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 2: about dominating America. Twenty twenty six is about dominating the

647
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: Western hemisphere from Greenland to Venezuela to potentially Cuba and

648
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: other places in between.

649
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 1: What's your historical analysis as to why Democrats, why many

650
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: active military veterans just pause a little bit more when

651
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: comes to democratic leadership of the military than Republican leadership

652
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 1: of the military.

653
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: You know, I think that's an oversimplification. That's changed the

654
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 2: bay I hear that. I know I'm oversimplifizing.

655
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 3: Look, I go back.

656
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: Look the fact is a majority of veterans voted for

657
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: Bush over Kerry.

658
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: That's true, yeah, you know, but a.

659
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,040
Speaker 1: Majority of veterans in the Obama you know, it was

660
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: a pretty sizable victory over McCain, but a majority veterans

661
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: support of McCain, I believe.

662
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think, you know, veterans are a reflection of

663
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: the country, right, and if you took a group of

664
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: older white men who tend to be from the South,

665
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: they're going to vote Republican, right, and and that you know,

666
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: that's what the officer corps looks like in the military.

667
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: So it's more you almost it's almost more where that

668
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: it's it's more of I always say, we're all born

669
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: with original bias, literally where you're born, who you're born to,

670
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 1: all of that that has It's not the military itself

671
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: that pushes veterans to lean right. It's their own cultural

672
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: essentially formation as a child that makes them lean und Yeah,

673
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: and the.

674
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 2: Military kind of like football, is like a family affair.

675
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: I mean, the oversimplification is that there's kind of three

676
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: kinds of people who join the military nowadays. Right. It's

677
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: people who join because they're family joined it was a

678
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 2: family business, or it's part of their legacy. Right. There's

679
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 2: people who yeah, And then there's people who legitimately want

680
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: to serve. Right, this is maybe the smallest percentage, the

681
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 2: folks that want to fight the good fight or they

682
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 2: want to give back. And then there's a lot of

683
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: people who need health care or want the money for school.

684
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: And I think that that's an important subset too, because

685
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: the enlisted ranks, especially prior to this administration, tended to

686
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 2: be more diverse ethnically racially in terms of gender, and

687
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: they were more gettable for Democrats, and they tended to

688
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: vote more Democrat. Right now, the veterans population is different.

689
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: That's nineteen million people have gotten out. They tend to

690
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 2: be older white men, and older white men tend.

691
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: To vote Republican.

692
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: Right, So I think what's really interesting is that over

693
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: fifty percent of veterans and active duty are independent politically unaffiliated,

694
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: and they haven't had a home, so a lot of

695
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 2: them stay on the sidelines. They will sometimes choose a

696
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: John McCain or they'll choose a John Kerry, and I

697
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: do think they tend to gravitate toward another veterans. But

698
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: the reality is they're looking for a Mark Millie, They're

699
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 2: looking for a Colin Powell. They're looking for an Admiral mccraven.

700
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 2: Who's an example I know you will give. And they're

701
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: like most Americans. Most Americans are independent. Now forty five

702
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 2: percent was the last Gallup poll. Only twenty seven percent

703
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 2: of Democrats and Republicans. Those numbers are shrinking in the

704
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 2: military too. On a trajectory basis, now you do have

705
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: Republicans and Fox Newswatchers and petext fans that are over

706
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: indexing in the military right now, But if you look

707
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 2: at it longitudinally, they are reflective of where the elector

708
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: is for the most part.

709
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 1: When you look at the twenty eight field, you know,

710
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: it's fascinating to see that essentially we haven't elected a

711
00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 1: military veteran as president since George HW.

712
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: Bus.

713
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: I think some would argue national Guard service.

714
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: With George W. Bush.

715
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,399
Speaker 1: I'll put that in the it's somewhere in the middle.

716
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: Where do you let mean no, as a military veteran,

717
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: where do you put that? Where do you put national

718
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: Guard service?

719
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 2: I mean it's better than nothing, right, but he's not

720
00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: a combat and it are different today.

721
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,719
Speaker 1: Right, If you were in the National Guard in the

722
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: twenty first century, you may have been sent overseas. I

723
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,320
Speaker 1: think when the National Guard of the sixties or seventies,

724
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 1: you weren't, right, and too often.

725
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 2: This becomes like a keeping up with the Joneses thing

726
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 2: within the military. But I think for veterans, have you

727
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 2: served at all? That's important, right. I think it's important

728
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 2: to the country as well. Have you put the country

729
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 2: ahead of yourself? And to me doing National Guard? Yeah?

730
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 2: All right, in anywhere there's plenty if folks more than

731
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,840
Speaker 2: most people. Yeah, But then combat service is important in

732
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: understanding the human cost of war up front, having your

733
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: buddies die, you know, knowing what it's like.

734
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 3: To write a letter home to your mother in case

735
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 3: you're killed.

736
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: John Kerry understood that. George Bush the first understood that.

737
00:35:57,880 --> 00:35:59,760
Speaker 2: And I think now you're going to have a generation

738
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 2: from both the Republican and the Democratic Party that understands that,

739
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:05,879
Speaker 2: and I think these are actually the people to watch, Chuck.

740
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 2: I mean, Jadie Vance is obviously on the playing field.

741
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 2: Who knows that Hegseth is. You've got people like Tom Cotton,

742
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: Ron DeSantis served in the Navy. Almost every one of

743
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 2: them has got some kind of military service. On the

744
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 2: other side, you've got Mark Kelly, who we've talked about.

745
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: You've got Reuben Diego, You've got Mikey Cheryl, the governor

746
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:23,880
Speaker 2: of New Jersey.

747
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,800
Speaker 3: You've got Wes Moore in Maryland.

748
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,760
Speaker 2: I mean, they all have some kind of military service

749
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 2: and combat experience. Now how they view that combat experience

750
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: is dramatically different, and that's why I argue they're often

751
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: proxies for the parties, but they are very effective proxies

752
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 2: for the party so far. And I think that was

753
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: an under reported.

754
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 3: Part of Mikey Cheryl's victory, span Berger's victory.

755
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: They were able to appeal to a broad swath and

756
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: especially to independence because of their national security experience, because

757
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 2: of their veterans experience, and they're leading with that because

758
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 2: most of all, Chuck, it establishes trust, and I think

759
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 2: people don't trust politicians. They don't trust authenticity, they don't

760
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: trust that they're going to fight for them. And there's

761
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: a natural baked in respect for veterans that can transcend

762
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: party in a way that almost nothing else can.

763
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 3: Maybe celebrity and money, but veterans are kind.

764
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: Of like a secret superpower in politics that can always work.

765
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 3: That's where why you and I are so in line

766
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: on this.

767
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: I think that I certainly view it this way for

768
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: when we're trying to repair something that's broken in the

769
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: moment right and right now, where our politics is broken

770
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 1: and are a military veteran might be the best way

771
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 1: to go. And frankly it's not lost on me, And

772
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: I think I said this to you before that for me,

773
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: there are two presidents that stand out as being the

774
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: closest we've ever had to actually having independence as presidents,

775
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: people that truly did put country over party.

776
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: One was our first.

777
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 1: One, and he's got plenty of receipts to prove that

778
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,000
Speaker 1: one and the other's Eisenhower. And I don't really think

779
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: there's anybody else that comes close.

780
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,200
Speaker 3: Do you concur with that or you think.

781
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 2: I mean a different roll of the dice, And it

782
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 2: could have been Colin Powell, right, Colin Powell could have

783
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 2: been the first African American president, you know, first black

784
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: president in history, right, if it had gone differently.

785
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: And I think that's important to.

786
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: Recognize too, because at that time he had a unique

787
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,399
Speaker 2: credibility and popularity in the country that was probably even

788
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 2: higher than John McCain or someone like that, Right, So

789
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 2: there was there was a potential opportunity there. But I

790
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 2: do see especially at the local level, and this is

791
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: what I'm doing now with Independent Veterans of America. We're

792
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: running one hundred candidates this fall. We're running as many

793
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 2: as seven or eight per Senate who I think will

794
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,759
Speaker 2: be competitive in places where Democrats are Republicans can. But

795
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 2: at the local level, mayor's, school board, county executives, people

796
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 2: don't want a partisan school board representative, right, you shouldn't,

797
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: I my view, you shouldn't have a Republican or a

798
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: democratic school board. And veterans are now stepping up and

799
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: they want to run, but we have to help create

800
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 2: a pathway where they can be viable, where they can

801
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: get ballot access, where they can compete with the big

802
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 2: money and the parties, where we can have open primaries,

803
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 2: something I know you've talked about and focused on. But

804
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 2: if the field is leveled, veterans will serve and they

805
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,000
Speaker 2: can get things done. They can be pragmatic, they can

806
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 2: represent everybody, and they can represent what is the biggest

807
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: voting block now in the country, the forty five percent

808
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: of the independence and non affiliateds that are also the

809
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: fastest growing percentage of our electorate, sixty percent of young people.

810
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 2: Every demographic. We see that people are saying no to both.

811
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: And it's not just middle chuck, it's none of the above.

812
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: They're just throwing a middle finger up to all of it.

813
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: They don't want corporations, they don't want corporate media, they

814
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: don't want the parties, and they want to be independent

815
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 2: in the spirit of George Washington.

816
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 1: And this is I think the challenge, this continues to

817
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: be the challenge of tapping into this on what on

818
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: paper looks like an incredible group to tap into, and

819
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: yet the problem when you take this forty plus percent

820
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: that self identify as not either party, right, they say, no,

821
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: I'm independent, I'm really not comfortable with either party. Obviously,

822
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: when you push you can figure out, oh, culturally they

823
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: lean this way, and culturally they lean that way, and

824
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 1: all of that. It is hard to find a unifying

825
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: set of issues for this independent movement. This is what

826
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: I've what you what becomes the flaw in the ointment here?

827
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 3: Right?

828
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: What seems like a no brainer on paper. Look, people

829
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: pick independence for a reason, right, Bernie Sanders is independent.

830
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 3: I hear he's not a real independent.

831
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 1: Well what he he's not comfortable being with either major party,

832
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 1: but he's obviously ideologically wants something a little bit different.

833
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:39,320
Speaker 2: And he caucuses with the Democrats. But there are a lot.

834
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 1: Of people who call themselves independent but are decidedly either

835
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:52,080
Speaker 1: you know, uh, sort of conservative libertarians or progressive independence.

836
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 3: There's a lot of different reasons for folks to be independent.

837
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: I think it's really important for folks to think about

838
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 2: the fact that independent is an attitude.

839
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 3: More than it is a political affiliation.

840
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 2: Right, It's not an ideology, it's not an ideology, right,

841
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: But what the unifying factor is They reject the status quo,

842
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: and they reject both parties, and they're looking I would

843
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: argue for leaders even more than issues, and too often

844
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: they're dismissed as spoilers or they're leaning. Very seldom do

845
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: we actually have a chance to vote for an independent candidate.

846
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,239
Speaker 2: Because oftentimes they can't even make the ballot. They have

847
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 2: higher thresholds to reach the ballots, they don't have the

848
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 2: same fundraising mechanisms, and that's a problem that we're working against.

849
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 2: But when you look at someone like Jesse Ventura, he

850
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 2: won he won a governor's race in Minnesota.

851
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 3: This was decades ago, right.

852
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: And I think in many ways that's an indicator for

853
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: what can be happening now. Because he had the power

854
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 2: of celebrity, he was able to obviously master the media.

855
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 2: But there's an independent mayor of Colorado Springs right now

856
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,960
Speaker 2: named Jemmy Mobilatti. And there's an independent mayor of Chattanooga,

857
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 2: Tennessee named Tim Kelly.

858
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 3: And there are a number of veterans running for.

859
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: Senate, like Dan Osborne in Nebraska who can potentially win

860
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: in a Senate race where a Democrat can't. There may

861
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:07,399
Speaker 2: be one in Montana, which might be the most ripe

862
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 2: for the Senate in terms of running an independent candidate,

863
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: because right now we know that the Democrats are very

864
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: unpopular and the Republicans are very unpopular, and independents are

865
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,479
Speaker 2: in a unique position to run against everybody to say

866
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm against all of it. And if you capture that

867
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: with the veteran persona like I think some of these

868
00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: folks are or celebrity. If Matthew McConaughey decides to run

869
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 2: in Texas or the Rock decides to run for president,

870
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 2: I don't say that dismissively because Ronald Reagan once did it,

871
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 2: Jesse Ventur once did it. If people can can jump.

872
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 3: Do Donald Trump has done it.

873
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: Let's not pretending anthing other than sort of a celebrity.

874
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, the moment is ripe right now.

875
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 2: And the other thing that I think we're close to, Chuck,

876
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 2: is a significant scalable investment. The left has the Soroses

877
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: of the world and the right has the Koch Brothers.

878
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: There's been no real billionaires jumping in to this. Elon

879
00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 2: Musk has talked about it, but there is a market

880
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,000
Speaker 2: opportun unity here that sooner or later somebody is going

881
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 2: to recognize. And I think it's really like an oil

882
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 2: well set to be spiked.

883
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 3: So we're going to run a hundred of them.

884
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: We're going to take some good shots, but we win

885
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: one Senate seat, and it could be Idaho, South Dakota, Montana, Nebraska,

886
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: and we may see a couple others. Then that will

887
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 2: immediately be the single most powerful member of the Senate.

888
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: An independent fulcrum who doesn't caucus with either the Republicans

889
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 2: or Democrats, especially if it's a veteran, could be the

890
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: most powerful member of the Senate.

891
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 3: And that's what we're shooting for this fall.

892
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,440
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Speaker 3: I've never understood.

946
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,360
Speaker 1: I mean, it's been one of my frustrations with Angus

947
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 1: King in there, which is I thought he could build

948
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: all you need is four to six members, right, you

949
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: already really have two foundational members of this independent block

950
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: who I do think who if they would agree basically,

951
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: will we're either all going to vote for one party

952
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: or the other depending on what you're promising when it

953
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 1: comes to the independent Senate agenda. Angus King and Lisa

954
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: Murkowski could be these ten polls and they won't do it.

955
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: And I don't know why, right which, because if they

956
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: would pledge to do this, they already have the backing

957
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 1: of their own states to do this. So if they

958
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: would join hands, and they could have done it with

959
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:14,640
Speaker 1: Mansion and Cinema and likely recruited a Susan Collins, although

960
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, but in theory, let's say they could

961
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 1: have done that. Maybe at Todd Young I could throw

962
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: in there, maybe at John Curtis out of Wyoming, where

963
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 1: that says, look, we're going to be independents first, and

964
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: we're going to vote as a block to decide which

965
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 1: party gets to organize the Senate based on here are

966
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: our five demands. You don't need the majority. Right, It's

967
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying. And I don't know why this

968
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:44,920
Speaker 1: has been so hard to get somebody to try to

969
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: be the leader of the independence.

970
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,399
Speaker 2: To be frank well, politicians are often behind the curve,

971
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 2: not ahead of it, right, And I think the people

972
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: want this. But if you look at someone like Angus

973
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: King or Bernie Sators, they were essentially elected with the

974
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: expectation that they would caucus with the Democrats. Right, So

975
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: I would chole whether.

976
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: The reason I single out Angus King is when Angus

977
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: King rings ran for governor, he ran against both parties.

978
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but he won his governorship. Yeah.

979
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: By the time he had ran as the Senate, You're right,

980
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: Democrats just said, hey, we're not going to recruit somebody

981
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: against him, and if we don't, he'll probably caut us

982
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,000
Speaker 1: with us.

983
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I do think Angus King is probably the

984
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,800
Speaker 2: closest thing we have in the Senate to being that leader.

985
00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation with him on my show

986
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: and I've challenged him on it. But I also think

987
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: we're close to a breaking point, Chuck, where we only

988
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: need one or two to break ranks and defect and

989
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: let me give you two examples. Jared Golden in Maine

990
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:36,399
Speaker 2: is a Democrat, a veteran who very easily could break

991
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: ranks with the Democrats and declare his independence become unaffiliated.

992
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 3: And someone like Don Bacon.

993
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: Also a veteran from Nebraska who continues to buck against

994
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: his party. If the two of them came together and said,

995
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: we're going to send a message, We're going to break

996
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 2: the seal. It's safe out here. You can leave the

997
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,759
Speaker 2: Democratic a Republican party. You can get media attention, you

998
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: will have other people who look out for you, and

999
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: there will be money.

1000
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 3: Because here's the real truth, Tuck.

1001
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 2: I've got a lot of folks who call me up

1002
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: and say, you know, I'm thinking about running, but does

1003
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: anybody have like ten million dollars.

1004
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 3: For me if I run? Yeah, they need air cover.

1005
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,520
Speaker 2: Admiral mccraven says he doesn't want to run. If Mike

1006
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 2: Bloomberg gives him a hundred million dollars, he might rethink

1007
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 2: that situation.

1008
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:15,879
Speaker 3: Right.

1009
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 2: So we have to, I think, simultaneously attack the systems

1010
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 2: with open primaries. We have to address the lack of infrastructure,

1011
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:26,760
Speaker 2: front fundraising, ballot access, but we also need super captivating leaders,

1012
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 2: and I think we're very close to seeing that. Dan Osborne,

1013
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 2: I think broke through tremendously in Nebraska because of his

1014
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 2: realism because he was a steam worker. You know, he's

1015
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: a union guy, he's tough, he's got tattoos, he's talking

1016
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: real We're going to run like one hundred Dan Osborne's.

1017
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: But we're also one step away from getting Mark Millie

1018
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: or Admiral mccraven or someone like that. And I think

1019
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: once we get a high visibility person that can drive

1020
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 2: that infrastructure behind him, people are going to defect. They're

1021
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 2: not happy as Democrats and Republicans. They just have to

1022
00:49:56,280 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 2: know that if they leave, they can survive. And that's

1023
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 2: where the people come in. You have to worth those

1024
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,359
Speaker 2: independent candidates and make it viable for people who put

1025
00:50:03,400 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: country over party. And the people that want to kill

1026
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 2: it the most are the parties. The parties do not

1027
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 2: want us to do this. That's why when when when

1028
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: Brad Lander and Mom Donnie, when they when they won,

1029
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,839
Speaker 2: one of the first things they did was kill the

1030
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: open Primaries initiative to get on the ballot in New

1031
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,439
Speaker 2: York City because they want to slam the door behind them.

1032
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 2: The DSA ran the table, they worked the Democratic primary,

1033
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: and they want to ensure there are no open primaries

1034
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 2: going forward, because if you want a counter to Mom,

1035
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: Donnie or Trump, open primaries.

1036
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 3: Is probably it.

1037
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, look it's it's the two parties are the

1038
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 1: reason why.

1039
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 3: You can't.

1040
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: It is so difficult in some states to even get

1041
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: on the ballot, which I know you're experiencing with what

1042
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: you're helping. Let me flip the script there this way.

1043
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: If you were if the Democratic Party and the and

1044
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: or the Republican Party came to you, in fact, I

1045
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: want you to answer both questions, and they say, okay,

1046
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 1: Paul were we need to figure out how to appeal

1047
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: to this large block of independent veterans. What's your advice

1048
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: to the Democrats? What's your advice to the Republicans? Is

1049
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: it the same or is it different advice for each party?

1050
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: Well, they do that, I will tell you, Cantley. I

1051
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: hear from a lot of elected leaders and leaders from

1052
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: both parties, and what I tell them most of all

1053
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 2: is drop your party affiliation because your brand is shit.

1054
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 3: You can't run.

1055
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: The minute you put an r DA, you can't. This

1056
00:51:24,440 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: is a truth, nothing but skepticism. This is the truth

1057
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 2: is that Americans don't trust Republicans or Democrats, and their

1058
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,400
Speaker 2: brands are sinking, you know, Like I think ten thousand

1059
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: people are leaving the Democratic and Republican Party every single day.

1060
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: They're checking out. And I think it's a new normal

1061
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: where people can order fifteen different couches from Amazon, but

1062
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 2: they only have two options on the ballot. People want

1063
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 2: more choices, and that's the future of America in my view.

1064
00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 2: So the number one thing they can do is not

1065
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: be themselves, which is hard for them to do. But

1066
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 2: I do think it comes down to a focus on

1067
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: national security, for example, on issues like law enforcement and

1068
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: first responders, talk about things that they don't want to

1069
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,160
Speaker 2: talk about sometimes like taxes. Right, But I do think

1070
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: that most independence, more than anything else, want to hear

1071
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: that you will be independent, meaning you won't be beholden

1072
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: to donors, you won't be beholden to parties, you won't

1073
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 2: be behold into ideology, and you will truly put the

1074
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 2: country and your community first. And the ones who can

1075
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 2: do that with authenticity will get independence. Right. And Trump

1076
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 2: knows how to play that tune.

1077
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 3: He does it.

1078
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 2: He knows what populism sounds like he also knows how

1079
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,200
Speaker 2: to capture culture right where you can get politically adjacent

1080
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 2: people who watch sports, who watch music, and I think

1081
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 2: those folks are more movable as well. So my advice

1082
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: to them is to legitimately be independent, show you can

1083
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 2: buck your party.

1084
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 3: And let me give you a really good example, Wes

1085
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:47,880
Speaker 3: Moore and Gavin Newsom.

1086
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 2: The redistricting that they're doing in their states is great

1087
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:52,080
Speaker 2: for the Democrats.

1088
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,160
Speaker 3: In my view, it's bad for our democracy.

1089
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: Fighting fire with fire is not good for America, and

1090
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,800
Speaker 2: I would argue that if they want to attract independence

1091
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 2: in states, or if they want to run for president,

1092
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 2: don't do the redistricting. Don't do the redistricting and support

1093
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: open primaries in your state, which would empower millions of

1094
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 2: people to vote equally in your state. That's a really

1095
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 2: easy one, Chuck. You can understand and appreciate the true

1096
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,400
Speaker 2: cowardice of a democratic Republican. If they won't support open primaries,

1097
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 2: they won't support an equal vote for someone like me

1098
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,719
Speaker 2: who served their country and doesn't have the same power

1099
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: as someone who decides to run to participate in their

1100
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 2: private primary, which is publicly funded, uses public resources and

1101
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 2: public schools.

1102
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:35,399
Speaker 3: Right.

1103
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't see how it's constitutional. I don't think

1104
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,200
Speaker 1: that this stuff is unconstitutional. I think it diolates the

1105
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: Equal Protection clause. And I think the idea that I

1106
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: got to register for a party. Luckily I live in Virginia,

1107
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,680
Speaker 1: no party registration, so I can I've got all the

1108
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: freedom as a voter. That is not the case I

1109
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 1: believe you're in New York. Not the case in New York.

1110
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: And that's just I thought we used to call those

1111
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 1: poll taxes. No, that's right, that's exactly right. And I

1112
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,759
Speaker 1: think it's really important for people to think about this. Look,

1113
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 1: I would argue everyone should declare their independence.

1114
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 2: Right, you have a lot more power as a voter

1115
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: if you are politically and now you could argue you

1116
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: want to vote in the primaries, but this is the

1117
00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 2: way things are going. And if you just give them

1118
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 2: your name, you give them your affiliation, and you don't

1119
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 2: make them work for it, you're an easy get right.

1120
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 2: And I think more Americans are tired of that, and

1121
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 2: they don't feel like they feel like the Republicans are

1122
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 2: driving our country off a cliff and the Democrats can't

1123
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,719
Speaker 2: stop them, so they want alternatives who can hold the

1124
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 2: line and represent more people. And I do think they

1125
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,919
Speaker 2: want unity, right, And if you're an independent I think

1126
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: you can legitimately offer unity and at the same time

1127
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: challenge people who are extreme. Whether you view Trump or

1128
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:48,319
Speaker 2: Mom Donnie as.

1129
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:52,839
Speaker 1: Extreme, Let's try to get a lighter here at the end.

1130
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:57,320
Speaker 1: You're trying to you you're running an independent media operation.

1131
00:54:57,440 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm running an independent media operation. I'll tell you the

1132
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:04,840
Speaker 1: one thing that I feel growing with me all the time,

1133
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:09,240
Speaker 1: which is I feel like I'm so focused on content

1134
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: that I'm not doing enough ingestion and I have to

1135
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 1: carve out time and it is increasingly difficult to keep

1136
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 1: up simply because there's more good content available than ever

1137
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,480
Speaker 1: before thanks to sort of this massive fragmentation. We're all

1138
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, look at the world of podcasts.

1139
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: There are more hours of podcasts that I want to

1140
00:55:31,560 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: listen to than I have time during the week.

1141
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,279
Speaker 2: How do you do it? What's your diet? Give me

1142
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 2: your diet?

1143
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:41,560
Speaker 1: How do you still do leisurely reading and podcasts listening?

1144
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: Because I think finding that's the time I'm struggling to find.

1145
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: It's like everything is all geared towards the work product

1146
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: that I'm finding myself.

1147
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 3: Missing my casual stuff. You know, whatever.

1148
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 1: It is, your sports podcast, maybe a movie pod, it is.

1149
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,439
Speaker 1: I'm curious. You're doing a lot. That's why I got

1150
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: to think. And you've got a kid at home. Still

1151
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: I'm empty nests. Yeah, I'm empty nest. So I got

1152
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 1: a little of less of that responsibility. How are you

1153
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 1: balancing this?

1154
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,480
Speaker 2: I mean, the short answer is discipline, right, and that

1155
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: comes from the military, and part it comes from being

1156
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 2: a social entrepreneur. An entrepreneur comes from.

1157
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:21,680
Speaker 3: Being a dad.

1158
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: But I am extremely rigorous about getting up at a

1159
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 2: very early time each day. And the first thing I

1160
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,879
Speaker 2: do is I go get some sunlight, and I make

1161
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,080
Speaker 2: sure I get direct sun, and I get some fresh air,

1162
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 2: and I get some coffee, and I get to do

1163
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:38,440
Speaker 2: some breathing and stretching and exercise and a really cold

1164
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 2: shower because I want to do hard things to start

1165
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 2: my day.

1166
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 3: And I get interested.

1167
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: You're a cold shower guy. I don't have a cold

1168
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 2: pl I live in New York City, so I can't

1169
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,480
Speaker 2: have a cold plunge, and I don't have a lake outside.

1170
00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 2: But I do think starting my day without my phone,

1171
00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 2: where I can set the tempo, I can lay out

1172
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 2: my goals. I can reflect and get my body in

1173
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: my mind right, is really really key before the kids

1174
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: get up, before the assault of news comes. And then

1175
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 2: I do read like I mean, I read newspapers and

1176
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 2: international papers and blogs. I try to consume as much

1177
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 2: information as I can because part of my job is

1178
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:14,840
Speaker 2: helping people navigate it. And that's the I think the

1179
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 2: upside of this, Chuck is that you are like a

1180
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 2: compass for people. You're an asthmyth, and I think at

1181
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 2: times like this, it's our job to help people process

1182
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:26,480
Speaker 2: and find a path through the chaos. And that's the

1183
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: exciting part here is I think they actually can trust us.

1184
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,440
Speaker 2: We don't have corporate sponsors and we don't have to

1185
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 2: run by agrads all the time. We can wake up

1186
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 2: and focus on the things we care about. And I

1187
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 2: do think that it requires me to be especially disciplined

1188
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 2: around things like veterans issues. I'm covering the suicide numbers,

1189
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: even though it's not exciting first responders issues. I'm focused

1190
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:48,800
Speaker 2: on the fact that the nine to eleven records have

1191
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 2: not been fully released. Right because I know who my

1192
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: audience is, I know who my community is.

1193
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 3: Vets are depending on me to talk about.

1194
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:59,240
Speaker 2: The VA because almost nobody else does right, and that

1195
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 2: forces me, I think, to have a degree of discipline,

1196
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 2: and frankly, national security is the ultimate clarifier. So if

1197
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: I'm worried about too much stuff, you know, nukes are

1198
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 2: a great clarifier. Attacks on Iran are a great clarifier.

1199
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 2: I still also have to make time for joy and

1200
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 2: for creativity. So you and I talked on my show about.

1201
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: I know, fallout. I know we got it. Both got

1202
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: obsessed with that.

1203
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 2: Right fallout. And you know I love Landman and I

1204
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,160
Speaker 2: watch tons of sports, But I think it's also important too, Chuck.

1205
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 2: I shut it off when I spend time with my boys.

1206
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: And there's nothing more important to me than being with

1207
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: my boys, who are ten and six, and I coach,

1208
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,360
Speaker 2: which I think is the most important clarifier, because I

1209
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 2: can't turn on my phone, I can't get distracted. I've

1210
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 2: got six year olds on a football field or a

1211
00:58:45,240 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: basketball court and they're all looking at me, and that,

1212
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:49,919
Speaker 2: in some ways is the most important thing I think

1213
00:58:49,920 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 2: many of us can do, which is demonstrate good leadership

1214
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 2: and be good role models in our community. And I

1215
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: tell my boys all the time, you got to read

1216
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 2: readers or leaders. It's over my shoulder here. My son

1217
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 2: won super reader, and you gotta be disciplined and read, Chuck.

1218
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 3: That's my long winded answer.

1219
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 2: Beyond the cold showers and doing lots of push ups

1220
00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,400
Speaker 2: and stretching, you got to read people.

1221
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: You got to read the cold shower ideas.

1222
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 2: That's something I might.

1223
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: I might because I'm an obsessive early riser for the

1224
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,120
Speaker 1: same reason I want as much time without distractions as

1225
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:26,479
Speaker 1: I can.

1226
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1227
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: Right, And the only time of day you can get

1228
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 1: it is somewhere between four and seven.

1229
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I like doing one of the hardest

1230
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,320
Speaker 2: things possible to start my day because then I know

1231
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 2: I knocked out something hard. I mean, I'm not a

1232
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 2: craven making my bed. Making my beds important too, But

1233
00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 2: if you freeze your ass off in a nice cold shower,

1234
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 2: you're awake and you know that you can do.

1235
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 3: Other things after that.

1236
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 2: But I also think it's very very important for us

1237
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 2: to talk about mental health, and it's about your mental

1238
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: health and making sure you taking care of yourself and

1239
00:59:57,040 --> 00:59:59,720
Speaker 2: what is not only chaotic times, but likely to be

1240
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:03,240
Speaker 2: staying chaotic times. This is our normal, Chuck. There are

1241
01:00:03,280 --> 01:00:05,720
Speaker 2: going to be no days off from the news cycle. Hey, listen,

1242
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 2: citizenship is active. You know. I remember the first time I.

1243
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 3: Visited Israel it was an six And.

1244
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: Look, there are a lot of people that have very

1245
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 1: strong opinions about Israel in the moment because of what

1246
01:00:19,520 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 1: happened in Gaza, and I respect that. But what I

1247
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: want to drive at in Israel is an Israel. To

1248
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: be a citizen is an active job. You were surrounded.

1249
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:33,439
Speaker 1: It's you know, being the only democracy sort of from

1250
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, one of the in that region, or or

1251
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,600
Speaker 1: certainly more democratic than than than other other entities in

1252
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 1: that region. It is you've got to be a participant.

1253
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: It's a there's an activist, there's an there's an activist

1254
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:53,800
Speaker 1: mindset to be a citizen in Israel. We had that

1255
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: in this country for over one hundred years. You know,

1256
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: when you read Detokol Democracy in America and he was

1257
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,880
Speaker 1: trying to, you know, sort of figure this out. And

1258
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: he was this outside observer, you know, he marveled at

1259
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,640
Speaker 1: a few things, how interested and local we were and

1260
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: sort of how active everybody was.

1261
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:12,560
Speaker 3: It was. It was participatory.

1262
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: It does feel as if we got you know, and

1263
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: I vacillate on this, Perhaps apathy is a sign of stability.

1264
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,160
Speaker 1: And it is not lost on me that our highest

1265
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: turnouts over the last in my lifetime have all come

1266
01:01:29,240 --> 01:01:33,880
Speaker 1: since the era of Trump. That the instability Trump is

1267
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 1: is brought to the system has brought more people to

1268
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,640
Speaker 1: pay attention, and we have higher vote We've had higher

1269
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,960
Speaker 1: voter participation rates, pure and simple. It's interesting to me

1270
01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 1: that it's it's because people are nervous that they show

1271
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 1: up to the polls, not because people are satisfied. And

1272
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: so I I vacillate there on that, but I wonder

1273
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: you know how to make people feel as if you know, hey, look,

1274
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: citizenship is there's it is a job.

1275
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 3: And you can't be passive.

1276
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, vigilance is the price of freedom. About it? What's

1277
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 2: your tagline? You say it all the time, Stay vigil

1278
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,200
Speaker 2: Stay stay vigilant.

1279
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,160
Speaker 3: And I'm going to build on why you say that?

1280
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 3: What do you mean by it?

1281
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 2: Well, because you know I would put it in in

1282
01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:26,520
Speaker 2: these most focused terms. Somebody once said, you know, you

1283
01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,080
Speaker 2: might not be into politics, but politics is into you, right,

1284
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 2: And I think the reality that folks need to face,

1285
01:02:33,040 --> 01:02:37,520
Speaker 2: either now or later, is that your democracy, your freedom,

1286
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: your security, your economic prosperity, in my view, is under

1287
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: direct threat right now.

1288
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 3: Whether you know it or not.

1289
01:02:44,360 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: There is a war going on in America for the

1290
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:48,160
Speaker 2: soul of America, for the future of our country. And

1291
01:02:48,160 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 2: I would argue for freedom worldwide. So my job is

1292
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 2: to is to fight for freedom foreign and domestics, supporting

1293
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, the freedom fighters in Ukraine and supporting protesters

1294
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: in Minneapolis who are standing up for the constitutional rights.

1295
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,560
Speaker 3: In my view, this is a moment.

1296
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:04,720
Speaker 2: Some folks in generations say, I wish I lived in

1297
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 2: you know, civil right's time. I wish I lived during Vietnam.

1298
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,720
Speaker 2: We are here now, We're here now. I used to

1299
01:03:09,720 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 2: buy the way.

1300
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 3: I was one of those people.

1301
01:03:11,360 --> 01:03:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember as a reporter, young reporter in the nineties,

1302
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: I used to think, oh, man, I there's a part

1303
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,680
Speaker 1: of me that wishes I had I had something more

1304
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 1: defining for the country to cover.

1305
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 2: Little did I know.

1306
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 3: And it is literally it is literally at your doorstep.

1307
01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 2: Right, this is the moment, you and I, You and I, Chuck,

1308
01:03:30,720 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 2: let's break it down, right, talk about independent media.

1309
01:03:33,520 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 3: They arrested Don Lemon.

1310
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can arrest you, they can arrest me, They

1311
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,200
Speaker 2: can arrest anybody with a substack account right, anybody who

1312
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 2: speaks out, if you're if you're if you're a military

1313
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 2: retiree like Senator Kelly, you could have posted something on

1314
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 2: your Facebook and they could come after you for your retirement.

1315
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 3: The important point, I think is that.

1316
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 2: You're not Mark Kelly.

1317
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:55,960
Speaker 1: If they do that, Mark Kelly can at least shine

1318
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:56,640
Speaker 1: a light on this.

1319
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: ICE has made it immediate. I think everybody can recognized

1320
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,520
Speaker 2: that ICE might knock at your door, and if not

1321
01:04:03,600 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 2: your door or your neighbor's door, or they might be

1322
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: outside of the end of your street, or they might

1323
01:04:07,000 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 2: snatch up someone you know, or they might disrupt your

1324
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,120
Speaker 2: place of employment. I think that in the immediacy of

1325
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:15,320
Speaker 2: that threat and the clarity of that threat, without warrants,

1326
01:04:15,360 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: without badges, without it feels unconstitutional, It feels unlawful, and

1327
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 2: really importantly, Chuck, it feels deeply un American. And even

1328
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 2: for people who can't call it what it is now

1329
01:04:25,040 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 2: they're understanding that feels deeply un American, and it's inspiring

1330
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 2: a new kind of patriotism that's really about a fight.

1331
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 2: You've got to fight for it. And if you think

1332
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 2: you can be a pedestrian right now, if you think

1333
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: you're not on the battlefield, then you're the prey. Right.

1334
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 2: And that's the approach I take for everybody in this

1335
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 2: country right now, right, So what are you running for

1336
01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 2: office if it becomes viable for an independent Chuck? Right?

1337
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the truth. Like I have thought

1338
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: about running for office. I've been recruited by both parties.

1339
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: Actually, you're a New York City resident, right.

1340
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,720
Speaker 2: I am a New York City resident, and I am

1341
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 2: a political independent. If I was a billionaire, maybe I

1342
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,720
Speaker 2: could run against Kathy Hokel as an independent, and if

1343
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: she was running against someone like Stephanic, maybe there's a

1344
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 2: pathway for me. But the reality is, I'm trying to

1345
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:15,520
Speaker 2: build the infrastructure for people like me and for thousands

1346
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:17,560
Speaker 2: of others who want to run. So that's where I'm

1347
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 2: focused right now, is you know, using my microphone to

1348
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: fight for freedom and democracy and to try to create

1349
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: a pathway for others. And that's really why what we're

1350
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: building with independent veterans of America is so important. We

1351
01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 2: have to make it viable for people like man. Maybe

1352
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 2: for you, Chuck, you know, I assume you're politically independent.

1353
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 2: We need folks like you and the game as well,

1354
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: but we're starting with veterans as a tip of the

1355
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 2: spear because we think it's the easiest to understand.

1356
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:44,920
Speaker 1: It's I think that's the most incredible. Yeah, leaders, we

1357
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: want to create a give them.

1358
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,840
Speaker 2: So we want to create a model for veterans that's

1359
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 2: scalable for any independent American that wants to run for office.

1360
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 2: So for now, I'm building the machine. I'm supporting my

1361
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters. I'm excited about the candidates that we've gotten.

1362
01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 2: I'll tell you one other thing, Chuck, I say this

1363
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 2: a lot. I'm kind of like Zelenski. I don't need

1364
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:06,840
Speaker 2: a ride, I need AMMO. Right, we need ammunition for

1365
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 2: this fight. And so letting people go say they want

1366
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 2: to help you out, Independent Veterans of America dot org.

1367
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 2: You can help us recruit, train, support independent veterans to

1368
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 2: run for office, but also to be actors in their community.

1369
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: And there's a campaign we just launched yesterday, Chuck, that

1370
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 2: I think is important. We're focusing specifically on veterans because

1371
01:06:25,600 --> 01:06:28,480
Speaker 2: one third of ICE agents are veterans. ICE is heavily

1372
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:32,800
Speaker 2: recruiting veterans. We're saying, don't join ICE, join us, join

1373
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,080
Speaker 2: us instead of Ice. You want to serve your community.

1374
01:06:35,400 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 3: You want to lead for the people around you.

1375
01:06:37,480 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 2: You want to do something that's truly patriotic and not

1376
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 2: do something criminal that might end up putting you in

1377
01:06:42,160 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: jail down the line. Don't join Ice, join us. We

1378
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 2: need you, your country needs you. You don't have to

1379
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 2: run for office, but you can start at school board.

1380
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 2: And if that's not interesting to you, you can support

1381
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,919
Speaker 2: other people who can. And we are the future, Chuck,

1382
01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 2: I say that we're not moving the needle.

1383
01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:57,280
Speaker 3: We are the needle.

1384
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:00,400
Speaker 2: And the future of politics in America is independent and

1385
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 2: we're recruiting. So, Chuck, I hope you can run one day.

1386
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:09,800
Speaker 1: Look, man, your enthusiasm is infectious and your determination is

1387
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 1: you know, let's let's just say that you strike me

1388
01:07:13,360 --> 01:07:14,840
Speaker 1: as somebody that ought to be at the front of

1389
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 1: this line, not just the not just the head recruiter.

1390
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:21,360
Speaker 2: Brother. Well, you know, I'm trying to be effective in

1391
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 2: whatever way I can if that moment comes and I

1392
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: can meet it, get those boys raised.

1393
01:07:26,160 --> 01:07:28,960
Speaker 1: I do think focus on that this politics ain't great

1394
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 1: for kids.

1395
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:32,360
Speaker 2: No, And look, Chuck, that that's a real thing too.

1396
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: I got little kids, and you know that it's a

1397
01:07:35,680 --> 01:07:38,640
Speaker 2: very difficult environment. But I also will tell you I'm

1398
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 2: not kicking the can down the road. I do think

1399
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: in this this year, in this moment, I want to

1400
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 2: create hundreds of George Washington's right, hundreds of Dan Osborne's,

1401
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:50,360
Speaker 2: hundreds of mc craven's, and they're ready to go.

1402
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 3: Chuck.

1403
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 2: Every day we hear from more and said, you know what,

1404
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 2: I never wanted to get in, but.

1405
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 3: I'm in now.

1406
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 2: And ice in particular has been a really activating threat

1407
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 2: in a way I never could have imagined.

1408
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:03,800
Speaker 3: So I hope it's not just veterans.

1409
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 2: I hope it's teachers and firefighters and even you know,

1410
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 2: iconic media figures like yourself.

1411
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 3: Paul Raykoff. Always fascinating to talk with you.

1412
01:08:15,360 --> 01:08:17,360
Speaker 1: I always learned something, and more important, I always feel

1413
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 1: a little bit better about me in America.

1414
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 2: Well I feel the same, Chuck. Appreciate all your public service,

1415
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 2: in your years of leadership in public service. Thank you, Chuck.

1416
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:26,360
Speaker 2: You got it.

1417
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,439
Speaker 1: And we got one more episode of Fallout right for

1418
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 1: this season.

1419
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:31,559
Speaker 2: I haven't watched the last one.

1420
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 3: Neither of I.

1421
01:08:32,720 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 2: I no no worry, neither of I. It's so damn

1422
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 2: good I have.

1423
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm trying to is it real life or not.

1424
01:08:44,240 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. As we talked about on my show,

1425
01:08:46,960 --> 01:08:47,640
Speaker 2: it is is.

1426
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 3: It has definitely got a lot of parallels to our

1427
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 3: real life right now.

1428
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:53,920
Speaker 1: And it's sort of what I love about it is

1429
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: I think it's sort of like, here's an extreme.

1430
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 3: Ending if we take the wrong path.

1431
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you saw a Handmaid's Tale, you

1432
01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 2: were like, oh my god, that could be our future.

1433
01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:08,559
Speaker 2: Fallout is an even further extension of how bad it

1434
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 2: can get if you don't stay vigilant.

1435
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: Well, especially in the relationship with corporate America, which is

1436
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:21,000
Speaker 1: the most fascinating bad guy template that I feel like

1437
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:23,200
Speaker 1: all of Hollywood is shifting towards these days.

1438
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 2: Oh yes, they become more corporatized. That's the oh yeah,

1439
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 2: and the Epstein Files Or where do we watch Fallout?

1440
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 2: By the way, we talked about this, Unfortunately you have

1441
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 2: to watch it on Jeff Bezos's Prime.

1442
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:40,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's an anti corporate screen on Jeff Bezos' Prime.

1443
01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 3: You can't make it up. Yeah.

1444
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,679
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to create the opposite of Jeff Bezos,

1445
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 2: it's somebody like Dan Osborne, who's been the guy turning

1446
01:09:47,439 --> 01:09:50,799
Speaker 2: the wrench and so that's going to be next season

1447
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 2: on some network. We're going to do a different kind

1448
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 2: of hero and they're not going to be the billionaires.

1449
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 2: They're going to be the citizens. That's right. And the

1450
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 2: music is really good and everything else is really good too.

1451
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 3: I mean, it's so good.

1452
01:10:01,080 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 2: It's it's very good. It is. It is, all right, brother,

1453
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 2: talk soon, thank you, sir. M h m hm