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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Nadelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

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Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

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Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

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Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, Heed, as

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Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

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Speaker 1: even represent my own and nothing contained in this show

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Speaker 1: should be used his medical advice or encouragement to use

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Speaker 1: any type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. So today our

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Speaker 1: guest is Boris Jordan's. He is the founder and a

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Speaker 1: major shareholder in the company cure Lee, which I think

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Speaker 1: is either the biggest or one of the biggest cannabis

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Speaker 1: companies in the world. Right It's a major multi state operator.

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Speaker 1: He also has a hedge fund called Measure eight uh

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Speaker 1: and just took a sense how big it is. He's

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Speaker 1: got almost six thousand people working for him now, he's

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Speaker 1: got a hundred and thirty seven dispensaries. Last I looked

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Speaker 1: in in twenty one states. He's got over two dozen

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Speaker 1: cultivation sites. I mean, this is a major, major operation

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Speaker 1: it's valuation is in the billions of dollars on the

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Speaker 1: Stock Exchange. Uh. He's a major player in cannabis industry

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Speaker 1: circles and also deeply involved in the politics of all

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Speaker 1: of this. And he's got a fascinating life even before

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Speaker 1: he got into cannabis. So Boris, thank you ever so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me on Psychoactive. I'm super excited to

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Speaker 1: be here. Okay, well listen more so let's just jump in.

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Speaker 1: He do need to talk a bit about what's going

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Speaker 1: on in Congress right now. So this Safe Banking Act, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, having married people in the industry and businesses

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Speaker 1: to get access to safe banks, and and the whole

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Speaker 1: discussion about can or should this go through, you know,

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Speaker 1: without there being all sorts of racial equity racial justice

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Speaker 1: provisions that we both include a sponge been that would

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Speaker 1: also include, you know, ensuring a better level of access

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Speaker 1: or some preferential access for a minority business owners. You know,

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Speaker 1: can this happen? I mean Schumer, you know, on on

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Speaker 1: the show and since then it said I don't want,

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Speaker 1: you know, any state banking going through unless it's got

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Speaker 1: some racial equity provisions. In Corey Booker from New Jersey

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Speaker 1: has been even stronger on that. So what is the

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Speaker 1: state of play from where you see? Well, even it's

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a simple, uh, you know, piece of legislation.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you more than anybody knows that. Um you know,

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Speaker 1: it's been I don't know, you know, fifty some odd

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Speaker 1: years of repression on the sector and we've come to

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Speaker 1: a situation now where, you know, I actually believe we're

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Speaker 1: closer than we've ever have been for potentially getting a

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Speaker 1: piece of federal legislation that at a minimum recognizes the

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Speaker 1: existence of cannabis as a substance that can be consumed

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Speaker 1: in various forms by the popular lation at large. So

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Speaker 1: the short of it is, I think we have a

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Speaker 1: piece of legislation as being worked on now that has

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Speaker 1: obviously the safe banking component, and the safe banking component

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Speaker 1: means that cannabis companies would have access to basic banking

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Speaker 1: for their businesses. And I think it will also have

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Speaker 1: a safe harbor provision that would allow investors to invest

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Speaker 1: in the sector. And I think it will also have

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Speaker 1: some level of what we call plus love you know,

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Speaker 1: whope act issues like expungement and potentially and I think

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Speaker 1: this is the issue that Booking wants the most, and

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Speaker 1: that is some level of money to help these states

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Speaker 1: with closing these expungements, because the one thing is you

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Speaker 1: can come out and say, okay, we have you know,

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Speaker 1: we've expunged these these these felonies or these misdemeanors. But

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Speaker 1: another thing is to actually get it off the actual

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Speaker 1: physical record, and that takes money and time. Obviously, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different advocacy groups that want whatever is

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Speaker 1: that they want this piece of legislation. We could probably

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Speaker 1: spend two hours talking about all the different things people

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Speaker 1: wanting this piece of legislation. The way I look at this,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's where we're heading, is that this

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Speaker 1: is the first step in what will be a multi year,

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Speaker 1: potentially multi generational move towards legalization of not only cannabis,

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Speaker 1: but other drugs as well. And I think that we

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Speaker 1: have to see it that way, and we have to

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Speaker 1: put our I wouldn't say differences, because to be honest,

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Speaker 1: I'm on the same page as a lot of the

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Speaker 1: other people are in terms of all the things we'd

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Speaker 1: like to get in this legislation, particularly on some of

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Speaker 1: the racial social equity issues. But I think that what

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Speaker 1: we need to do is get something that we think

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Speaker 1: can get past, so that we could you know, break

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Speaker 1: the glass ceiling, say um, and and actually get a

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Speaker 1: piece of legislation on the books that then you know,

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Speaker 1: we'll use every year to expand on, expand on, liberalized

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Speaker 1: and liberalized and for the more spark. That's what happened

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Speaker 1: in the States as well. A lot of the states

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Speaker 1: are initially passed very restrictive legislation, and then eventually they

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Speaker 1: liberalized that legislation. As the sort of the demons of

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Speaker 1: cannabis came down and people realized it wasn't as bad

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Speaker 1: as everybody thought it was, they started to liberalize. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's where we are now. And so I

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Speaker 1: see the activists saying, you know, what we should have

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Speaker 1: in there is providing small business administration loans to new

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Speaker 1: legal cannabis businesses trying to get started, or making sure

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Speaker 1: that banks provide support for new minority owned enterprises. And

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Speaker 1: I think the problem has typically been, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Republicans on this thing, right, I mean, the Democrats, you know,

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Speaker 1: all for safe banking. They love it. They even passed

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Speaker 1: it as stand alans before. The Republicans are generally for

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Speaker 1: stand alone. The Democrats are saying, put some of his

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Speaker 1: other stuff in, and the Republicans keep you know, now

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Speaker 1: we don't like that racial equity stuff, get rid of it.

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Speaker 1: But are the Republicans going to move along on this

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Speaker 1: stuff and drop their opposition to uh, you know, we

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Speaker 1: don't like this racial equity stuff. Will do expungement, but

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Speaker 1: forget all that other preferential preferential stuff. Listen. I think

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Speaker 1: where we are right now is that we have, if

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Speaker 1: it was purely safe, we have about eighty votes in

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Speaker 1: the Senate. As you know, we need sixty votes to

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Speaker 1: get this through. So the real issue is once you

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Speaker 1: start adding veterans affairs, small business loans, racial equity expungements,

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Speaker 1: and all these things, you start to lose votes, and frankly,

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Speaker 1: not only Republican votes, but there are several Democrats that

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Speaker 1: you lose votes on as well, the ones that typically

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Speaker 1: cause a problem for Democrats and a lot of the

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Speaker 1: legislation that they've been trying to pass. So we so

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Speaker 1: what we've been trying to do is get Schumer and

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Speaker 1: Booker to give us a final draft, per se draft.

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Speaker 1: We understand it will get negotiated that we could go

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Speaker 1: and cross to the other side and start talking to

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Speaker 1: the Republicans about what they're prepared to accept and not

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Speaker 1: prepared to accept. The problem is every time you add anything,

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Speaker 1: you'll lose a couple of them, right, That's where the

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Speaker 1: problem is. What happens if the Republicans take not just

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Speaker 1: the House, which everybody expects, but they also take the Senate.

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Speaker 1: Are things then dead because McConnell just doesn't want it.

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Speaker 1: Or when you say there's eighty votes for a straight

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Speaker 1: safe banking, um that supplies that there's thirty Republicans out

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Speaker 1: of the forty nine or fifty fifty who would be

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Speaker 1: in favor of it. So is it conceivable that a

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Speaker 1: straight out safe banking goes through next year if reblems

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Speaker 1: have both houses or the Democrats gonna mobilize against it

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Speaker 1: so much it won't happen on that end, McConnell. McConnell's

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Speaker 1: the problem in this situation. So there are votes on

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Speaker 1: the Republican side, but only under democratically controlled House because

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Speaker 1: McConnell doesn't want to have on his record legalization of

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Speaker 1: any kind in cannabis. But safe banking is not legalization.

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Speaker 1: And if you're saying he's got you know, thirty out

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Speaker 1: of fifty Republicans already saying they want it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know what's the problem there. I mean,

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Speaker 1: he did move around on him, maybe because it ran

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Speaker 1: Paul's influence and being in Kentucky some years ago, but

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Speaker 1: it's safe. Banking is not real. I mean, so he

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Speaker 1: regrets ever passing the hemp built he thought it was

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Speaker 1: he thought it was, you know, um, hemp for rope.

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Speaker 1: He didn't think it was hemp for weed. And what's

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Speaker 1: happened is, you know, he he did not think that

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Speaker 1: what's happening now countrywide with delta eight and delta nine

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Speaker 1: to th HC components that are being derived from hemp,

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Speaker 1: and these products are spreading naturally, he's adamantly against that.

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Speaker 1: And so he is very negative on anything to do

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Speaker 1: with either CBD, hemp or cannabis. At this stage, I

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Speaker 1: can't get into the guy's head, but I can tell

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Speaker 1: you what he said. We are not going to put

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Speaker 1: either into committee or on the floor vote with anything

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Speaker 1: to do with cannabis at the Senate if he controls

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Speaker 1: the Senate. Okay, boys, let me let me just embarrass

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Speaker 1: He's just a little bit here, right, So I should

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Speaker 1: tell our listeners full disclosure that you know, after I

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Speaker 1: stepped down from running drug policy a lines five years ago,

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Speaker 1: I thought about getting involved in the industry in some way,

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Speaker 1: and it just felt unseemly to make a switch from

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Speaker 1: advocacy into that. But last year I said what the hell,

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Speaker 1: and I decided to make a significant investment for me

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Speaker 1: in the hedge fund that Boris had set up called

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Speaker 1: Measure eight. And like an idiot, I did it at

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Speaker 1: the peak of the market last spring, a year and

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Speaker 1: a half ago. I have anybody should have known better

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Speaker 1: than that, And so my investment is now down in

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Speaker 1: your hedge fund boards, although I understand would probably probably

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Speaker 1: be down even more if I'd invested in some of

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Speaker 1: the other funds. But that being said, so i'd go

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Speaker 1: on a couple of your quarterly calls and I remember,

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Speaker 1: like a year or ago, you were really optimistic. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking to people people appreciate, so I'm taking what you

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Speaker 1: say and you're optimism with a grain of salt. But

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Speaker 1: why do you think you got it pretty wrong last year? Well,

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Speaker 1: because I was speaking to you know, the powers that

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Speaker 1: I had calls with Schumeran and others, and um you know,

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Speaker 1: they were very optimistic they were gonna get this done,

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Speaker 1: and they misled. To be honest, a lot of us

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Speaker 1: and you know, we love to blame the Republicans, he said,

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Speaker 1: on anything to do with cannabis or you know, liberalization

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Speaker 1: of drug policy. But the fact is the Democrats of

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Speaker 1: the Democratic President and two houses the controlled by Democrats,

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Speaker 1: and they have done zero on this issue. And so

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Speaker 1: you know today, obviously I'm positive because I can see

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Speaker 1: the activity, but you know, I'm a person who tries

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Speaker 1: to believe what I'm told, and I was told by

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Speaker 1: the higher ups in the party that they were going

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Speaker 1: to get this done and they didn't. Right. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's my little suggestion giving the Democrats a little more

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Speaker 1: loved before you hit him on that stuff, because I

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Speaker 1: saw I'm watching your interviews in your slamming Schumer and Booker.

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Speaker 1: They're screwing it up. They should have had this done before.

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Speaker 1: And then you're saying in the States, the Democrat led

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Speaker 1: governments in the States, they won't crack down on the

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Speaker 1: illicit markets because because Biden bailed them all out with

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Speaker 1: the big federal funding, and once they don't run out

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Speaker 1: of money, they have to crack down there and they'll see.

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Speaker 1: But meanwhile, the fact of the matter is, of course,

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Speaker 1: it's Democrats, with a few major exceptions, who have really

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Speaker 1: driven this thing nationally, right, It's it's democratic states, which

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Speaker 1: basically on the places mostly where you're doing really good

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Speaker 1: business is democratically leadership. In Congress, they led this thing,

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Speaker 1: you know. It's it's Democratic voters who disproportionately voted in

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Speaker 1: favor this thing. So I can agree with you to

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Speaker 1: some extent about Schumer and Booker and how slowly been

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Speaker 1: on getting their ship together. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you know, but for the Democrats, if the Republicans were

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Speaker 1: running things, uh, you know, purely, if your business, the

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Speaker 1: whole industry wouldn't be much of anywhere. And meanwhile, the

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Speaker 1: Democrats they got what five or tennessee margin in the House,

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Speaker 1: they got zero seat margin in the Senate. It's not

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Speaker 1: like g f DR and a new deal so getting

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Speaker 1: anything through. So anyway, my suggestion, give a little more

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Speaker 1: love before you kind of smack them around. It's and

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Speaker 1: I I spend more money and more love on the

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Speaker 1: Democrats than on any party in Washington, and so we

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Speaker 1: I can tell you this, I don't give very little

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Speaker 1: credit to the federal government and Congress or the Presidency,

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Speaker 1: both Republics and Democrats on these policies. I give them zero.

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Speaker 1: I do however, do you have a high grade to

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Speaker 1: our various governors and local governments that have been really

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Speaker 1: brave and pushing these policies. But at the federal government,

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Speaker 1: which you and I are talking about now, I give

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Speaker 1: him an f So just a few other issues will

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Speaker 1: wrap up this. Can you know current conversation to a

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Speaker 1: d about allowing businesses Marijunia businesses take a tax to

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Speaker 1: duck share that can happen anytime soon is that's still

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Speaker 1: years away. So they're trying to actually put that into

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Speaker 1: this current law that they're trying to get past in

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Speaker 1: the Lame Duck. My concern with that, Ethan, this is

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Speaker 1: that that's the trojan horse I worked on the Ways

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Speaker 1: and Meets committe when we were doing tax reform. Kind

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Speaker 1: of showing my age. But anyway, um, I can tell

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Speaker 1: you that to change tax policy in the United States

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Speaker 1: is very complicated. You have to score the tax, you

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Speaker 1: have to find an alternative for that tax, for the

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Speaker 1: revenue from that. I don't believe personally that we can

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Speaker 1: get that done between now and the Lame Duck. And

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Speaker 1: so my concern is that if they put that into

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Speaker 1: the law, it's dead on arrival. Even though the publicans

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Speaker 1: tend to be pro tax reduction, although I'd like to

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Speaker 1: see what their position would be on cannabis tax reduction,

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Speaker 1: but they tend to be pro tax reduction. So and

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Speaker 1: we just say the same thing also about there's this

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Speaker 1: climb Acts c l i MB that would basically, you know,

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Speaker 1: provide a safe harbor so that you know, companies like

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Speaker 1: yours could be listed on US stock exchanges or at

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Speaker 1: least be able to access Wall Street funding. Same issue

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Speaker 1: where it's going to be some years down the road

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Speaker 1: and can't. Don't get things distracted now because I hear

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Speaker 1: the activists are very worried about it. They see, you know,

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Speaker 1: opening up the funding for you know, you guys to

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Speaker 1: Wall Street just you know, enhance this consolidation of this

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Speaker 1: whole industry. You know, your valuations will you know go

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Speaker 1: through the ceiling. But the whole consolidation process which activists

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Speaker 1: and some others are really trying to slow down to

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Speaker 1: keep some elements of this industry a small business um

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Speaker 1: that will go by the wayside. Well, I actually have

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Speaker 1: a completely the opposite view. If if they don't get

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Speaker 1: rid of two A D and if they don't allow

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Speaker 1: eventral uplifting, I'm not the one that's to suffer, right,

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Speaker 1: It's going to be the small entrepreneurs that are gonna

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Speaker 1: suffer because there's no cheap funding for them. What's happening

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Speaker 1: with those companies now is that they're having to pay

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Speaker 1: you know, usually rates to start the company, kind of

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Speaker 1: the way I had to write when I started this

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Speaker 1: business to ten years ago. You know, we were paying

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Speaker 1: you know, for our money to try to start the business. Now,

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Speaker 1: the fact is we had an open playing field, so

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Speaker 1: it was much less competitive. Now the market is much

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Speaker 1: more competitive. Pricing is being squeezed, so the profitability levels

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Speaker 1: are way down where you're paying basically a seventy tax

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Speaker 1: rate on that, and so the small companies cannot survive.

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Speaker 1: I want to reiterate this, without too without safe banking,

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Speaker 1: and without uplifting, the small business owner is finished in Cannabis.

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Speaker 1: So if we don't get this in the lame duck session,

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Speaker 1: over the next two years, the five major companies in

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Speaker 1: the U S will consolidate the whole industry underneath them

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Speaker 1: because nobody else is gonna be able to get funding.

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Speaker 1: Aren't the states kind of limiting how many you know, dispensaries.

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Speaker 1: You guys can own it anywhere, but they're not gonna

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Speaker 1: be able to But they're not gonna be able to

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Speaker 1: keep doing anything because I'm telling you right now, we

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Speaker 1: have something called three tiers of cannabis companies in the US.

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Speaker 1: The top tiers the top five companies. Then there's about

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Speaker 1: ten companies and what we call tier two, and then

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Speaker 1: everybody else is in tier three, and then there's the

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Speaker 1: private companies that are Tier four. Everything below Tier two

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Speaker 1: is going to start going bankrupt because they can't refinance

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Speaker 1: and there's no money available. Why would investors put money

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Speaker 1: in the sector where there's no liquidity and they can't

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Speaker 1: realize their upside. So what's gonna happen is the big

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Speaker 1: companies will always be able to attract investment, although it

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Speaker 1: will be more expensive. The medium and small companies are

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Speaker 1: gonnatract no investment. So what is gonna happen. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: start going bankrupt and shutting their doors. So what's gonna happen?

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Speaker 1: We're gonna go to the states to the regulations and say, guys,

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Speaker 1: here's your alternative. Either these companies shut down and we

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Speaker 1: lose all those jobs, or you allow us to come

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Speaker 1: in and consolidate them and at least save the jobs

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Speaker 1: and business. So, you know, the states are gonna have

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Speaker 1: to make a decision. Do they want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: have this sector continue to expand or are they gonna

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Speaker 1: want to shut it down. And if they decided to

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Speaker 1: shut it down, they shut it down. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's what's gonna happen. They're gonna want the tax revenues,

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Speaker 1: so they're gonna want these businesses to keep going, and

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Speaker 1: so they're gonna allow consolidation to take place in these states.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna have to. It's inevitable. We'll be talking more

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Speaker 1: after we hear this ad. Let me ask you about

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Speaker 1: a particular state, Oklahoma, right, I mean, it looks like

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Speaker 1: the total Wild West. Basically, it looks like they're giving

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Speaker 1: out licenses like candy there, and the result is that

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Speaker 1: you have, i know, massive numbers of dispensaries and outlets,

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Speaker 1: you know, medical marijuana, but you know, basically anybody can

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Speaker 1: get it. But when somebody was telling me recently, is

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Speaker 1: that went ups night of that is that in basically

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Speaker 1: every little city in town in Oklahoma, you have some

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Speaker 1: local business people who set up their own little operation.

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Speaker 1: And if you go to a black town, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be a black owned dispensary in a white town.

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Speaker 1: This and and the question what do you think about

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Speaker 1: that model or is it inevitable that will be consolidation

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Speaker 1: in Oklahoma as well? They won't be able to survive.

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Speaker 1: They'll all have to consolidate because there's too many of them.

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Speaker 1: We saw this in Oregon, we saw this in California.

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Speaker 1: There's too many of them. There used to be two thousand,

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Speaker 1: eight hundred dispensaries in California. There's less than eight hundred

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Speaker 1: now because what happens is they all go out of business. Capitalisms,

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Speaker 1: capitalism ethm right. You know, you have to make a

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Speaker 1: great product, you have to invest in that product, you

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Speaker 1: have to build your distribution. To do these things, you

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Speaker 1: need a lot of money. This is not a capital

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Speaker 1: light industry. This is a capital heavy industry. In other words,

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Speaker 1: you have to invest a lot to get a result,

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Speaker 1: and people want to return on that investment. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we've seen this for two hundred years in the United States, right,

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Speaker 1: lots of small brewers, lots of small um alcohol companies,

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Speaker 1: cigarette companies, other things. They eventually all merged into these

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Speaker 1: large conglomerates because of the nature of the way the

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Speaker 1: system is, of course. I mean, I'll be frank with

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Speaker 1: you and our listeners here. I mean, you know, on

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Speaker 1: the one hand, you know, I'm the kind of smallest,

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Speaker 1: beautiful kind of guy, you know, ideologically, you know, I've

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Speaker 1: been on records saying I'm not in this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: the fight for the Marlborization or bud Wiserization of marijuana.

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Speaker 1: I do think there's a moral obligation to try to

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Speaker 1: get racial equity provisions and to make them work. But

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Speaker 1: the other part of me knows we live in, you know,

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Speaker 1: perhaps the most dynamic capitalist society in history. I look

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Speaker 1: at when I moved to New York City thirty years ago,

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Speaker 1: and they're all sorts of different little you know, coffee

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Speaker 1: shops out. Then Starbucks come along and they all get

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Speaker 1: wiped out. But now I walk around New York City

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Speaker 1: and I see more small ownership, the single store, a

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Speaker 1: few of the three or four stores, and there's been

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Speaker 1: a proliferation and so the non Starbucks niche seems to

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Speaker 1: be slowly growing and growing, not unlike what's happened with

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Speaker 1: micro breweries in the beer area, not unlike has happened

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Speaker 1: with you know, the microdistilleries. And you see it's still

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Speaker 1: under ten percent, but it's growing quite dramatically in many places.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder, you know, when all of sitting done,

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Speaker 1: is that going to be the inevitable future of the

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Speaker 1: broader cannabis industry. I agree with you, actually, and I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you what it is. What happens is the big

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Speaker 1: companies get lazy, They start to manufacture a product which

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Speaker 1: is not uh, you know, interesting, They don't innovate, and

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Speaker 1: the consumer is always looking for the next great thing,

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Speaker 1: right Ethan. And you know, if I can get a

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Speaker 1: cup of coffee from a local brewer of coffee that's

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Speaker 1: much nicer than a Starbucks coffee, I'll even pay up

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Speaker 1: for that to get that cup of coffee. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that's what we're seeing. And we're not only

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Speaker 1: seeing that in the US, particularly in the coffee industry.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing that across the whole world. If you'll go

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Speaker 1: to the UK, you've got you know, Cafe Nero, You've

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Speaker 1: got You've got a whole bunch of these different companies

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Speaker 1: that are coming up, and they're starting to challenge the

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Speaker 1: monopolies of you know, the Starbucks in the world, and

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Speaker 1: I encourage that. I always say to my people at

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Speaker 1: Cure Leaf, there's some kids sitting in a garage. Sorry

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Speaker 1: for the cliche, but that's you know, in the garage

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Speaker 1: thinking of a way to disrupt what we're doing, just

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Speaker 1: like we disrupted Cure Leaf. How the industry looked, you know,

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Speaker 1: eight years ago, and so there's always somebody else. And

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Speaker 1: that's the beauty of the American system. And I believe

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Speaker 1: in the American capitalist system. It's not perfect. We have

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Speaker 1: a lot of problems, and we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: problems to fit. But when I'm not a believer in socialism,

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Speaker 1: and I never have been, and someone whose family ran

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Speaker 1: from communism, and someone who saw what was going on

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Speaker 1: in Russia in the early nineteen nineties when I went

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Speaker 1: over there as a young man to you know, put

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Speaker 1: off my footprint, my imprint on that economy, I can

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Speaker 1: tell you socialism doesn't work anywhere in the world. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you put on a table with Boris Jourdan's one fascinating guy.

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Speaker 1: He was born, you know, in Long Island. He's in

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Speaker 1: his mid fifties now. His parents, grandparents had fled from

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Speaker 1: you know, during the Russian Revolution in nineteen around nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventeen or so. His grandfather, I think was involved in

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Speaker 1: part of you know, at the higher levels in the

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Speaker 1: Sarist government. You know, he's what you would call a

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Speaker 1: white Russian and he grows up in Long Island, in

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Speaker 1: a little white Russian community and Sea Cliff, and he's

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Speaker 1: really I think still you're very much woven into that.

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Speaker 1: And then in the nineteen nineties when you're going to

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Speaker 1: business school, uh, you know, you see all the you know,

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Speaker 1: the sons of the elites, you know, going to from

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Speaker 1: Latin America going back and setting up American banking and

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Speaker 1: you speaking Russian growing up that way, go back to Russia,

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Speaker 1: become the boy wonder of Russia markets, you know, with

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Speaker 1: with funds that helping get the Russian stock market going,

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Speaker 1: you take over a TV station, and TV that goes

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Speaker 1: on for a few years. You're reportedly friendly with prudent

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Speaker 1: in those days, and then you piss them off at

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Speaker 1: old four and life changes. So I want to ask

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Speaker 1: you in the first question here. You know, you were

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Speaker 1: involved in Russia deeply in the nineties, the born Yelson years,

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Speaker 1: the wild West years, and then you come to cannabis.

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Speaker 1: But what I want to know is, you know, when

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Speaker 1: was it that you first thought about getting into the

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Speaker 1: cannabis and just you where were you in your life? Um,

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Speaker 1: you know what made you think about this. I'd love

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Speaker 1: to be able to say that I was an early advocate,

429
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: as you are, but that would be a lie. Um.

430
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,240
Speaker 1: You know, I stumbled into cannabis, so you know, obviously

431
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,280
Speaker 1: as a as a college and and high school student,

432
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: I smoked weed like everybody else and enjoyed it. But

433
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,240
Speaker 1: then I stopped doing it in my mid twenties and

434
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: into my thirties, after having children and stuff like that.

435
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,479
Speaker 1: Not because I was against it, but I just stopped.

436
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,479
Speaker 1: I took on other things and then um uh, you know,

437
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 1: I tend to start businesses in those countries where I live.

438
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 1: So when I was in Russia, I had a whole

439
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 1: series of different companies. Then I moved to the UK

440
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,879
Speaker 1: and I started, you know what became the largest data

441
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,480
Speaker 1: center operation in Europe, a company called tell A City.

442
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: We lived there for eleven years and then I moved

443
00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: back to United States and I had a friend of

444
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: mine come over, a very interesting person. He came to

445
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 1: me and he said, Hey, I'm starting a cannabis UH

446
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,239
Speaker 1: medical device business. He came up with a patent for

447
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 1: a machine that was going to deliver dose specific dosage

448
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: of cannabis to late stage cancer patients in hospitals, and

449
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: he wanted to get that approved by the FDA. Well,

450
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,960
Speaker 1: I invested in his business UM, and obviously the FDA

451
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: wasn't gonna look at this. And then I kept telling

452
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: him and his colleagues that they have to pivot UH

453
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 1: to this vertical business because I started looking into cannabis.

454
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: And then I reoriented the company from the medical device

455
00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:43,240
Speaker 1: business to this vertical cannabis UH cultivation, manufacturing, and distribution.

456
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: So it goes from being a kind of little sideline

457
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: interest in fourteen where it absorbs more and more and

458
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 1: more of your time, to the point of today where

459
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,439
Speaker 1: it's how you spend your time in business. It's I mean,

460
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm a a full time to be honest, I'm spending

461
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 1: most of my time on US. Now, you're right, and okay,

462
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: I'm super fascinated with it. So boris I gotta bring

463
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 1: up when Putin invaded Ukraine some months ago. You know,

464
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: you took a lot of flak because you put out

465
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 1: this kind of lukewarm thing, a kind of both sides

466
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 1: hope there can be peace resolution. Clearly you were not

467
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 1: you in no public place condemning you know, this brutal

468
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,840
Speaker 1: assault on Ukraine by Putin, and you knew the guy

469
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: twenty years ago, And I'm just assuming the reason you

470
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: haven't said anything more boldly is that you know Pudin

471
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: kills people, and he's vicious, and you still have friends

472
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 1: and business interests in Russia, and so your view was,

473
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: you know what the cost of my saying something criticizing

474
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: Pudin on this invasion is gonna be risky in various ways.

475
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: It's just I'd rather take the ship from the community

476
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: for not being bolder. Is that basically what happened. No,

477
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell you. I'm a I'm an old line

478
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: student of business, and I know things have changed Ethan,

479
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 1: and maybe I need to change. But everything I learned

480
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: about business, not only from my father but also in

481
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,800
Speaker 1: school and then my first jobs, is that businesses and

482
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: politics are separate. And I have made it a thirty

483
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:17,400
Speaker 1: year issue that I do not get involved in politics

484
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: while I'm running businesses. And I'll tell you one of

485
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: my mentors, George Sorols, pushed that with me until, of course,

486
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: he switched his fund to philanthropy and to a charity,

487
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: and then he got involved heavily into politics. But you know,

488
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: if you know the old George, which I do, and

489
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: if you read his book Source on Soils, he's got

490
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: three pages about our relationship in there, you'll know that

491
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: he was one of the people that said Boris focus

492
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: on the business and stay out of politics. And so

493
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: I try to stay out of the politics because I

494
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: don't believe there's any upside to business in getting involved

495
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:55,920
Speaker 1: in politics. Well, listen, let's turn to a few other

496
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,919
Speaker 1: things here. On the future of the industry, I mean,

497
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: if heard you say, look, so many people focus on

498
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: how what happened last quarter, and I you focus on

499
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: the fundamentals. You think, like Warren Buffett, you think, like

500
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: black Rock, this is long term. You're in it for

501
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: a long term. One of the things you've been saying

502
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: about the nature of this industry, apart from the stuff

503
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, is you think fifty of the

504
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: industry will be people drinking their cannabis um within a

505
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: few years. And so tell me what you see on

506
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: the evolution of this thing in terms of the drinkables,

507
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,920
Speaker 1: the edibles, other forms of consuming. How do you see

508
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,360
Speaker 1: this thing evolving in lie So it's and I think

509
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: the industry is going to break up into three categories.

510
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,959
Speaker 1: There's gonna be the pharmaceutical part of the industry, and

511
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 1: that's when synthetic cannabinoids come about. I believe this pharmaceutical

512
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,160
Speaker 1: companies will switch from being the biggest opponents of legalization

513
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: to the biggest proponents of legalization. And obviously that's not

514
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 1: an area where we intend to play. That's gonna be

515
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,880
Speaker 1: really a pharma category. And by the way, I think

516
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: the cannabis plant is such such a great medical plant

517
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: that I think they're gonna do very well in that area.

518
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: The second part of the industry is going to be

519
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: what I call the neutraceutical part or the wellness part,

520
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:09,880
Speaker 1: and that is somewhere where we do want to play.

521
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: We just launched a rub which is really revolutionary. I'm

522
00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: recommending it to everybody. It's a rub for arthritis and

523
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: muscle and joint pain. It has no psychoactive effect on

524
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: the person, but it has high levels of th hc,

525
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: c B, D c BG, it's some other uh components

526
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: that really really helps with pain and and so I

527
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: think that the whole sleep and pain category, it's going

528
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 1: to be a big one. And I think cannabis is

529
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: gonna play a role in that. And I think that's

530
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: gonna be biologicals rather than synthetics, because people really prefer

531
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 1: Today the world is really moving towards much more homeopathic

532
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 1: medicines than these awful drugs that people have hooked us on.

533
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: And so I think that will be a big category,

534
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 1: and purely wants to be a player there. And we

535
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: have a i think the largest R and D facility

536
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: in the country working on products in that area. And

537
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: the third is going to be your recreational market, which

538
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: is very similar to you know, alcohol and and and

539
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 1: and other things. So the reason I made that statement

540
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: was because I've been watching consumer behavior not only United

541
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 1: States but in the world, and and people are really

542
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: trying to move away from smoking. And it's not only

543
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:25,119
Speaker 1: because smoking, in the case of cigarettes, caused cancer, but

544
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,439
Speaker 1: it's because anything you put into your lungs that's not

545
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: fresh air is not natural, and I think that the

546
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 1: world is heading in a direction where we don't want

547
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: to put anything into our lungs except oxygen. And I

548
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 1: don't think this is gonna happen soon ethan, because there's

549
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: a huge cannabi's culture of smoking. But I think that

550
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: culture is older, and I think the younger generation is

551
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: going to move on to other products. Plus, as this

552
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: industry and the products spread to new people, new customers,

553
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: those people that never used cannabis, a lot of those

554
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: are not smokers. It's women replacing a glass of chardonnay,

555
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: or men for that matter, with you know, a drink.

556
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 1: And the drinks category in terms of products, consumer based

557
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: products is the biggest in the world. And edibles and

558
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: drinking that's the biggest. It's much bigger than anything to

559
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: do with smoking. As a matter of fact, smoking is

560
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,239
Speaker 1: on the decline in the world and and drinks and

561
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 1: edibles are on the increase. And so when I made

562
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: the statement at the Benzinga conference in Chicago last week,

563
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: so I first of all, I said it's five to

564
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: ten years from now. I didn't say it's tomorrow the

565
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: next year. I said five to ten years from now.

566
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: I expect that the industry will be between drinks eventually

567
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 1: going to and that's because it's a form of consumption

568
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: that is really growing within the population, not only United

569
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: States but in the world, and smoking is falling off.

570
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: Does that mean that the importance of growing is very

571
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: high in marijuana in greenhouses? The specific strains in all

572
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 1: this is going to be less important that when you're

573
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 1: doing edibles and drinkables, he can really be outdoor grow.

574
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: You don't need to be quite as particular in the

575
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: content of these things. So you know, there is a

576
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 1: story and around that. I disagree with it because I

577
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: think that the edibles and the drinks are much better

578
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: with high grade product and you can taste the difference

579
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: and feel the difference in the entourage effect by planting

580
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 1: very good plants. Now you know my view generally, and

581
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how well the the audience knows this.

582
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: You know, I think this whole higher th HC is

583
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: better is garbage. I believe it's all in the trpenes.

584
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: It's not in the THHC. So you know, I think

585
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: at eight U th HC plant UH and AC plant

586
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 1: is going to give you the same effect depending on

587
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: the profile of the turpenes. So I do think trpines

588
00:30:54,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: are absolutely critical, and for trpenes you need very well grown,

589
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: high end cannabis. So I actually think you're gonna still

590
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: require really high end and different strains to get different

591
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: types of entourage effects from these places. So now in

592
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: terms of the broader future of the industry, I mean

593
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: you mentioned they are about big big pharma and how

594
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: they're gonna want synthetic cannabis. I guess because you control

595
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: dosing and purity and your consistency more in that way.

596
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: What about you know, big tobacco. You know, I interviewed

597
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 1: uh the chairman and former CEO of Philip Moore's International,

598
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: Andro Colenzopolis, a few months ago on Psychoactive, and he said, yeah,

599
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: you know, it has been a couple of little investments.

600
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,960
Speaker 1: He kind of hedged on where they might go, but

601
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: there's clearly evidence of them moving in. Do you see

602
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: them ultimately dominating this or given what you're saying about

603
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: um people switching to edibles and to uh drinkables, do

604
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: you see big alcohol or the big consumer good companies

605
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: ultimately dominating this or well, or were pure marijuana companies

606
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: actually play there? Continuing major role. I mean, looking out

607
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 1: ten fifteen years from now, what do you think? So

608
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: I think they're all gonna be players in the sector.

609
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: So I think the tobacco companies, in my opinion, will

610
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: no longer be known as tobacco companies. They will be

611
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: known as cannabis companies. So I think they'll be prolific

612
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: investors in the sector. As you know, the biggest investments

613
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:19,239
Speaker 1: made so far come from drinks tobacco companies. And I

614
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: think that, you know, Philip Morris, no matter what he

615
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: told you, I can tell you they are spending money

616
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of time. They are doing enormous amounts

617
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: of R and D on the plant, on the cannabinoids,

618
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: on the different entourage effects. They're going to be in

619
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: the sector, no question. And I personally think they're gonna

620
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: get out of tobacco eventually and focus on cannabis and

621
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: cannabis related products. It does seem like p M I is,

622
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, leading the way. I just heard a presentation

623
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: by Vivian Aser, the analystic Cowen who follows the alcohol,

624
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 1: tobacco and cannabis industries, and p M I seems leagues

625
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: aheads of all the other big ones in terms of

626
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: making that transition. But one thing I do worry about,

627
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,040
Speaker 1: and this comes from the kind of public health part

628
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: of my advocacy brain, is whether or not we're gonna

629
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: see on the legal industry trying to fuse nicotine product

630
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: with Canadas. And obviously already people you know, both in

631
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,200
Speaker 1: Europe and even the US, whether you know splits, blunts,

632
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 1: whenever they're they're already merging these two products. I remember

633
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 1: when I lived in London for a year. I didn't

634
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: like it because all my friends would smoke him in combo,

635
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: and I didn't like the tobacco thing. But do you

636
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: think that's gonna happen and you think governments are basically

637
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: gonna put prohibitions on selling those products in combination? You

638
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: probably remember this right, Schumer said that he doesn't want

639
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: the tobacco industry involved in the cannabis at all. And

640
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: so I do think that there's going to be significant

641
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: early pressure to keep the tobacco companies out. But I

642
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: can tell you right now, British, American Tobacco, Altria, Philip Morris,

643
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: they're all writing big checks, particularly in Europe, not the

644
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,960
Speaker 1: United States because of our federal prohibition, but in Europe

645
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 1: and investing in startup companies across the board. But apart

646
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: from the company's what about the product itself? And there

647
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: was the notion of selling cannabis that also has nicotine

648
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 1: in it. You know, I've never smoked a cigarette. I

649
00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,799
Speaker 1: think maybe one as a young kid, but I never

650
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: liked cigarettes and I didn't like to taste that like,

651
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: so I'm the wrong person to talk about cigarettes except

652
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:20,799
Speaker 1: to tell you that I think there's gonna be too

653
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 1: much pressure on them to keep tobacco and particularly nicotine

654
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,759
Speaker 1: out of this space. Let's take a break here and

655
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: go to an ad so both you among I think

656
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: all the major figures in the cannabis world in the

657
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: US at least, maybe not Canada, but the US have

658
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 1: been the most excited about the international markets in especially

659
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: Europe and everywhere I look. You're talking about Germany, Germany, Germany,

660
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: you know, other major multi state operators are not going

661
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: to Europe in the same way. But you're big in Germany,

662
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: and you pointed out that medical marijuana. You know, they

663
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: didn't do that so well. But if they go for

664
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: full legalization, um, it will be big. And the new

665
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: government says they're gonna do it. So give us your

666
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: perspective on Germany before I ask you about the rest

667
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: of Europe. First of all, Germany, you know the way

668
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: Germany goes, Europe tends to go there the leader obviously,

669
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,959
Speaker 1: at least at the moment, especially now with the UK

670
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: out of the European Union. I think the Germans are

671
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: very very focused. I mean cannabis use and by the way,

672
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: psychedelic use is very prolific in Germany. You know, if

673
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 1: you go to Berlin, you can't walk down the street

674
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: without smelling cannabis everywhere. Um same thing in Spain. But

675
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: the German government is a rational government, right they they

676
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 1: understand the taxation benefits and so they are legalizing cannabis.

677
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: It's our view that barring some treaty hiccups that they have,

678
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,680
Speaker 1: particularly on the EU side, I think the U N

679
00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: Treaty is resolvable because Canada did it and there's a

680
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: precedent now for it. I think that the EU treaty

681
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: nobody has addressed that issue. What Canada did and with

682
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,840
Speaker 1: Germany might do is basically to do with Avo Morales,

683
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: the former Bolivian president d with Coca, which is to

684
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: withdraw from the treaty and then rejoin the treaty saying

685
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: we don't agree to the coca provision or in this case,

686
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: the cannabis provision, that's what you're talking about, correct, And

687
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: they get a they get an exemption on that. Yet

688
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that no one's ever done that near

689
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,399
Speaker 1: you yet, at least we don't have a precedent. So

690
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: this is groundbreaking now. Obviously, see if there's any country

691
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 1: in the world they could do it, and you it's

692
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: it's Germany because the EU basically is Germany from an

693
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: economic perspective, So so I think they could lead the way,

694
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: but they have to get people on their side. But

695
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: luxembourger is trying to get this, Switzerland is trying to

696
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: get so they have people, they have other countries that

697
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: are on their side. I think there's five countries at

698
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 1: all right now that are trying to get this through

699
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,920
Speaker 1: the EU. I mean, it's weird how the Dutch, you

700
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: know who almost fifty years ago did the you know,

701
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,040
Speaker 1: the coffee shop model with decriminalization, Shane, How they've just

702
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: never kind of crossed over to making a fully legal

703
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 1: back door, you know, the legal wholesale production of this stuff.

704
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 1: It's very much the way that medical marijuana dispensaries were

705
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 1: in the US. You know, between the time we first

706
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: legalized medical marijuana and California nineties six until we got

707
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: the first dispensary law in New Mexico and oh seven.

708
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: I mean, basically it was the thing where activists would

709
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: start setting it up, first the cops to shut them down.

710
00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:25,600
Speaker 1: Then eventually they say, well, maybe this works better this way.

711
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 1: But it's weird how they never gone all the way now.

712
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: I also are a lot of people talking about Portugal,

713
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: but is that basically because of the cultivation side and

714
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 1: their low cost production. Portugal right now has a medical

715
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: program almost impossible. We've We've been an applicant for our

716
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,400
Speaker 1: products there for three years and where one of the

717
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 1: biggest cultivators in the country, and we still haven't gotten

718
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: our medical license. It takes forever. It's a very bureaucratic

719
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 1: oh siety. I think only one company, I think til Ray,

720
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: has a license to sell it's it's not a very

721
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: big market because of the way they regulate it, but

722
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: they are the center of cultu ovation because the climate.

723
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: The climate is very similar to California, and so you

724
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: have the ability to grow basically three quarters of the

725
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: year outdoors, sun grown or hoop houses or greenhouses. You

726
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: can grow very very nice product. And so that's why

727
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 1: Portugal is so popular because it has an absolutely perfect

728
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 1: climate for growing cannabis, and most of the cannabis in

729
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: Europe comes from Portugal today rather than from any other country.

730
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: Given the factor of class of production, why would a

731
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: place like Columbia or Morocco or some other African country

732
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,799
Speaker 1: UM emerges a major suppliers in the way they have

733
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: with coffee or tea or a whole range of other

734
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: UM commodities, including psychoactive commodities. So I think they will.

735
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: I think Colombia is you hit it on the nail

736
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: on the head. Uganda is already supplying. There's Ugandan product

737
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: coming into Germany right now, so right, I mean, I

738
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 1: do think they're going to be. But but I think

739
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: that you know, some of these countries, these some of

740
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: these regions may put on limits. For instance, uh, you know,

741
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: up until last week, it was anticipated that all the

742
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: Canada's coming into Germany would be EU g MP. Didn't

743
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: matter where it comes from, as long as it's U

744
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: g m P, you can import it into Germany for

745
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: the wreck program that's starting in twenty four. You know,

746
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: there's rumors today that there's certain elements that have lobbied

747
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: to say we want to have domestic growing only now.

748
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: Obviously that's nuts because Germany is probably the most expensive

749
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,200
Speaker 1: place in Europe to do business, and currently with the

750
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: energy crisis, you couldn't grow a cannada's plant there, either

751
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 1: in a greenhouse or indoors that would be remotely uh

752
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: profitable to sell, or if you were selling, it's all

753
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 1: at such a price that it would be prohibitive for

754
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 1: people to buy in the black market would continue to proliferate.

755
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that Germans walk away from that. And

756
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: this is not Catherine Stone, this is just conversation, and

757
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: we're gonna hear this kind of conversation for the next

758
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: six months as they go through rulemaking for the recreational program. Obviously,

759
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: different interest groups in the country are going to be

760
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: lobbying for different things. I personally think it's uneconomic to

761
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 1: grow in Germany and so I hope they walk away

762
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 1: from that. But there is a rumor that they're going

763
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:15,439
Speaker 1: to try and do that. And where do you see

764
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: the greatest likelihood is of you know, countries in Central

765
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: East jor moving forward leading aside the Czech Republic, which

766
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,720
Speaker 1: has generally been more ahead of everybody. In any case,

767
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: I think actually interesting enough fin notes. But Ukraine, so

768
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: I actually have on my desk right now some due

769
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 1: diligence on Ukrainian UH greenhouses. Uh Zelenski has said that

770
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: he wants to legalize cannabis in Ukraine, and so I

771
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: think Ukraine could be come out, assuming we can get

772
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: some resolution to this conflict. You know, twenty years ago,

773
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: the president of Kazakhstein UH now they're by it, basically

774
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: proposed that they look at the possibility of legalizing cannabis,

775
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: not just him plant but cannabis. And it didn't really

776
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,640
Speaker 1: go anywhere here. But I mean, kan has been the

777
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: kinic hemp, but you know, bread basket, I guess for

778
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: that part of the world for a long time. Do

779
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: you see any possibility that among the various stands UH

780
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,800
Speaker 1: in the former Soviet republics that UM apart from Ukraine,

781
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: that Kazakhstan might begin to play role. So no, I

782
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: don't think they're gonna play a role, but I will

783
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: tell you there are two major UH middle Eastern countries,

784
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,960
Speaker 1: major countries that are very high density populated countries that

785
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: are considering medical first and then eventually adults. Which can

786
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: you say which ones? Ah? I think I don't want

787
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: to jinx it because you know that these are most

788
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: these are difficult issues for them, and I don't want

789
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 1: to mess it up. But I've been advising them and

790
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: I can tell you that I think that very shortly

791
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 1: you're gonna hear about eighty million plus population country which

792
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 1: nobody would ever think would legalize I think is going

793
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: to legalize cannabis and smaller secondary but also very interesting

794
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: country that is looking at adult use as a way

795
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: to stimulate tourism in that country as well. So it's

796
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,879
Speaker 1: very interesting. You know. I I probably spend less time

797
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: now ethan on purely specific I'm I'm becoming a bit

798
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,920
Speaker 1: more of an ambassador and I'm running around the world

799
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: really trying to talk to these governments about opening up

800
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: their countries to cannabis. And Thailand, what a bizarre story there,

801
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: this sudden legalization, these bizarre politics. Um, you know, how's

802
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 1: that all going to shake out? And are you looking there? Yeah,

803
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: we We've had a team in Thailand probably for a

804
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 1: month and a half. We're trying to be the first

805
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: company to export from Europe into Thailand. So the transaction

806
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: hasn't gone through yet. But you know, these first transactions

807
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:48,440
Speaker 1: are always the most difficult, and after that, you know,

808
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 1: the supply chain starts to work. But we are in

809
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:54,439
Speaker 1: the process of trying to get a fairly substantial first

810
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: shipment into Thailand as a test case on supplying that

811
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,760
Speaker 1: country with European cannabis. Okay, So to come full circle

812
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 1: back to Russia here, I remember the early two thousand.

813
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: You know, Putting comes to power with January one, two thousand.

814
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 1: In those early years, there was some kind of progressive stuff.

815
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 1: There was a decriminalization, people being led out of prison,

816
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: there was some support the kind of you know, crazy narcology.

817
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: Establishment was kind of a little pushed back a bit.

818
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: And I'm wondering in Russia in terms of cannabis, can

819
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:29,680
Speaker 1: you imagine cannabis liberalization or maybe liberalization is their own word,

820
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: but medical cannabis and then maybe a broadening out happening

821
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 1: in Russia in the next five to ten years. Listen,

822
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 1: it's gonna be difficult, um for two reasons. Well, Underpoots,

823
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: I don't see it happening because, um, he is anti

824
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: alcohol and anti any drugs. Right. The man is a

825
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 1: health freak. He is never going to allow it. Although

826
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: I don't know where the study is now. He did

827
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: allow one Russian government owned organization to build a green

828
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: house and to plant cannabis as well as the opium

829
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: plant and to do medical research as to whether or

830
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 1: not it actually works, because he had enough pressure on

831
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 1: him with everything going on the United States and Europe

832
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 1: that he allowed for that to happen. And he said,

833
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,479
Speaker 1: if you guys can bring me medical evidence that these

834
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,879
Speaker 1: things actually cure or at least assist in medical conditions,

835
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: and that this would be a cheaper variant two synthetic drugs,

836
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: he said, I will seriously give it consideration. I think

837
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: that was three years ago. A lot recreational never underputs

838
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 1: his watch. He's adamantly against it. As a matter of fact,

839
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 1: he apparently cracked a joke to someone once, uh saying,

840
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: asked some Russian that knew me, is Jordan's still selling

841
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: weed to the Americans? And that person said yes, he goes,

842
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: oh thank god. So you know his view of cannabis

843
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 1: is is very negative, right, Um, at least for his

844
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: own population. However, you know, the population underneath Putin, and

845
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 1: when that old guard steps away from power is very different,

846
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: very different. I can tell you that the younger generation

847
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: right underneath him is much more open minded to these things.

848
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: And so I would if I was a betting man

849
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 1: and I'm in cannabis, so I guess I am, I

850
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: would argue that Russia could move very quickly under a

851
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: new regime. However, there are massive stigmas in Russia, very

852
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: similar to the ones in the United States. A matter

853
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 1: of fact, many people don't realize this, but if if

854
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: you take the political establishment class out, I see a

855
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: tremendous amount of similarities between Russians and Americans, tremendous amount

856
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: The way they think, the way they behave a lot

857
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: of things are very very similar. And so the young

858
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: generation Russia is very progressive, very progressive. And I think

859
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: that that generation, assuming it does run off because of

860
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 1: this war, um, I'm assuming that they would move on

861
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: cannabis very quickly. And finally, the last two megamarkets out

862
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: there China is their role basically going to be on

863
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: the hemp side and maybe the scientific side of a

864
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: synthetic cannabis and that's it. Yeah, they're not going to

865
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: go recreational, I don't think, or even medical in any

866
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 1: substantial way. I think I think they're very, very conservative.

867
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 1: Although you know what's interesting about China's China is probably

868
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: the center of holistic medicine, so so it's kind of

869
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: strange that they don't allow it. And you would think

870
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: given that their population uses roots and all sorts of

871
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 1: things for medicine, and some of the greatest you know,

872
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,399
Speaker 1: acupuncturists and stuff like that come out of China. I'm

873
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 1: surprised frankly that they haven't adopted it. But the language

874
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: out of China at the moment is negative. And the

875
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: country that may soon as their past China, with the

876
00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: biggest population in the world, India, where many states have

877
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: a long tradition of cannabis use and of drinking bong,

878
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 1: the cannabis infused beverage. You see India making any steps

879
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 1: forward on this. So if this country I'm talking about

880
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: in the Middle East moves on cannabis over the next

881
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: three months, which I expect that it will, um, I

882
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: think that India could be next. Very interesting. Well, Boris

883
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 1: I've been a fascinating conversation. UM, so listen, thank you

884
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: so much for taking the time to talk with me

885
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: and my listeners on Psychoactive. I think it's remarkable what

886
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: you've done in building this mega company. It sounds like

887
00:47:31,239 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna be in it for quite a while to come.

888
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm curious. I mean, do you see this

889
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: as for the next four or five years of your life?

890
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:44,800
Speaker 1: Do you see ultimately selling Pure Leaf to a bigger alcohol, tobacco, pharma,

891
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 1: some other type of company, consumer goods company. I mean,

892
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,359
Speaker 1: what is the future not just for cure Leef. I'm

893
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: also asking you to speculate a bit about some of

894
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 1: the other multi state operators and major companies. Is that

895
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: one thing I've always this is my fifth company I've built,

896
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: and my formula has always never build a company to

897
00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 1: sell it. Build a company to compete and be best

898
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: in class. And that's what I'm doing. In some cases

899
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: those companies got bought. In some cases those companies state

900
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: as independent operators. You know, I would love it if

901
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: if the landscape in the world was you know, there's

902
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: gonna be obviously tobacco companies and alcohol companies and and

903
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, food companies that everybody gonna use cannabis. I

904
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 1: would like to think that they'll be one or two,

905
00:48:29,320 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: you know, pure play cannabis consumer goods operators in the world.

906
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: And that's what I'm trying to build. And I hope

907
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 1: I'm successful. But you know, I can't predict today what's

908
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: gonna happen. But I can tell you one thing. I'm

909
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: not building cure leaf to sell it to a tobacco company.

910
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm building cure leaves to being competitive in this world.

911
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 1: Is one of the thing I forgot to ask you about,

912
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: which is one issue I've become passionate about since I

913
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 1: stepped down from Drug Policy Alliance, is the whole fight

914
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 1: over e cigarettes and tobacco harm reduction. And the scientific

915
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: evidence is pretty clear here that if you could snap

916
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: your fingers and all the smokers worldwide would suddenly stop

917
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: and all take up vaping. And even if the number

918
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: of vapors was greater than the number of smokers, and

919
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: not just vaping, but the you know, the lozenges, the

920
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: things you put in your mouth and oral versions, it

921
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: would be one of the greatest advances in public health

922
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: in human history. And you made the point before about

923
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: you seeing a shift in cannabis consumption from the smoking

924
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 1: and maybe even the vaping too. Things we're not putting

925
00:49:25,880 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: things in your lungs. And here we have a case

926
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,160
Speaker 1: where you know, you see the shift from smoking the vape.

927
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: You see, it's made a big difference, not just in

928
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 1: places like Japan and Korea, but even in Russian Ukraine,

929
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: people stopping smoking, taking up these heat not burn uh

930
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: nicotine tobacco stuff. The emergence of e cigarettes in some places, um,

931
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:47,080
Speaker 1: you know, major advantage from a public health perspective in

932
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: some respects in many parts of the world, even more

933
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 1: controversial than cannabis is. But I'm curious have you been

934
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 1: keeping your eye on that area. Have you been following

935
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 1: it thinking about investing or the connections to cannabis. I've

936
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 1: been following it very close, is my fact. I've had

937
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 1: numerous calls this week on the Jewel situation that took place,

938
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 1: you know, the settlement that the fine and everything. So

939
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm very much on top of the issue

940
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 1: because I think it's very relevant. Listen, I think there's

941
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: two things. The first thing is, you know, there's no

942
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 1: question Jewel targeted teenagers, and so in marketing and social

943
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: media and everything they were doing, and so in that regard,

944
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: and I saw the effects on children firsthand. I five

945
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: of them of what vaping can do when you're trying

946
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: to get your kid off of it, and I can

947
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 1: tell you it's a nasty look. I mean, hand shaking,

948
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: they can't sleep, mood changes really really so, so I

949
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: do think that that it's all about what you put

950
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: in them. And my biggest question to vaping as a

951
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,200
Speaker 1: whole is there hasn't been enough work done on either

952
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:58,600
Speaker 1: the devices or on the effects of the vaping on

953
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: the longs of of the individuals. And I know, in

954
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: some ways I'm talking against my own book because we

955
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,840
Speaker 1: sell a tremendous amount of apens, but there's heavy metals

956
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: issues right. A lot of people are putting all sorts

957
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: of substances into these vapes. I mean, even edible biologicals

958
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: have a different impact in your stomach versus your loans.

959
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 1: And I think that the issue is we need more

960
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: work done on that. I am sure. I'm absolutely sure

961
00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: that there is a way to make vaping safe. I'm

962
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: absolutely sure of it. But I think that there needs

963
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: to be more work and more transparency on the work

964
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: that's already been done for the consumer to understand. So,

965
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 1: for instance, the company Select that I bought years ago,

966
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: it was built on a very simple premise. It was

967
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of young guys out of Oregon that realized

968
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: that the vappens that people were using in California, we're

969
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: making people cough hard and they were getting really bad coughs.

970
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: And what happened was they were using silicon wicks in

971
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: their vapens and they were getting sil a coosis and

972
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: that was affecting their lungs and making them cough. And

973
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 1: so these young guys did a simple thing. They went

974
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: out and they replaced the silicon wick with a Japanese

975
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: cotton wick, and all of a sudden, the coughing stopped.

976
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,360
Speaker 1: But that's just one element, right, What about the you know,

977
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: the metals that are used. I agree with you, but

978
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, one sees now the FDA is basically green

979
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 1: lighting a whole bunch of these things, you know, whether

980
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 1: it's Enjoy or the you know blue I think it is.

981
00:52:28,760 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 1: So they're definitely looking at stuff and even you know,

982
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 1: they blocked jewel and then got mud on their face

983
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: because it seemed like they were doing it for political reasons,

984
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 1: not for scientific reasons. So I'm glad you're keeping your

985
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: eye on this area because I do think it's a

986
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:43,960
Speaker 1: fascinating one and there's probably nothing that could more advance

987
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: public health around the world than seeing a rapid transition

988
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: from combustible cigarettes onto the noncombustible forms of nicotine. I

989
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: completely agree with you in this product that Philip Marris

990
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 1: has in Europe. It's prolific and it's illegal in the

991
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 1: United States. It's amazing. Yeah, well, just's caught up in

992
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,560
Speaker 1: litigation with another I think British Americans bacco or something.

993
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: But I think eventually it's just going to get out there,

994
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: and it's true. It's and I think especially Russian Ukraine

995
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,200
Speaker 1: are two of the biggest places where it can you

996
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:15,879
Speaker 1: know be it's it's proliferic. I can tell you even

997
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,320
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was in greased this uh

998
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: the summer for a vacation. I mean, all the Europeans

999
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,919
Speaker 1: are using icons. It's amazing. Yeah, well boris On that note,

1000
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: thank you ever so much for joining me and my

1001
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: listeners on Psychoactives. If you're enjoying psychoactive, please tell your

1002
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,800
Speaker 1: friends about it. Or you can write us a review

1003
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We

1004
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,640
Speaker 1: love to hear from our listeners. If you'd like to

1005
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: share your own stories, comes and ideas, then leave us

1006
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 1: a message at one eight three three seven seven nine

1007
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: sixty that's eight three three psycho zero, or you can

1008
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,439
Speaker 1: email us at Psychoactive at protozoa dot com, or find

1009
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. You can also find

1010
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,840
Speaker 1: contact information in our show notes. Psychoactive is a production

1011
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:11,399
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by

1012
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:15,720
Speaker 1: me Ethan Nadelman. It's produced by Noam Osband and Josh Stain.

1013
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus

1014
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:24,040
Speaker 1: and Darren Aronofsky from Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt

1015
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:27,600
Speaker 1: Frederick from my Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman. Our

1016
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: music is by Ari Blucien and a special thanks to

1017
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:45,959
Speaker 1: a Brios f, Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Deep. Next week,

1018
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: I'll talk with Kirch Smoke, a true profile encouraged the

1019
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: former Baltimore mayor who called for ending the war on drugs.

1020
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 1: And putting all alternatives on the table. The country and

1021
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: the national political scene was moved towards a crime bill

1022
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: that was going to be very, very harsh, So there

1023
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: was still basically a feeling that we can prosecute our

1024
00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:14,319
Speaker 1: way out of this problem, and it just needed, you know,

1025
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:18,240
Speaker 1: more police resources, more incarceration, more for the d e A.

1026
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: Subscribe to Cycleactive now see you don't miss it.