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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show. My name is Mett, my name is Noel.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our

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Speaker 1: super producer Alexis code named Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly,

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Speaker 1: you are you, You are here, and that makes this

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Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. It's time for

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Speaker 1: our listener mail segment and as you know, as we

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Speaker 1: are wont to do a brief peak behind the curtain

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Speaker 1: conspiracy Realist, we have one of our not this episode,

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Speaker 1: but hopefully an upcoming episode, we'll have one of our

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Speaker 1: favorite returning callers making an appearance and bringing a little

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Speaker 1: more weird light to the world's do stay tuned. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and and shout out to all truckers who are listening

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Speaker 1: to this right now in a big rig shout out

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Speaker 1: to you. Yes, yes, Sorry about the horns on those

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Speaker 1: Peter belts. So uh you know, I've I've also in

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Speaker 1: a previous life on car stuff. I've also noticed the

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Speaker 1: wimplification of car horns now, and I think it's on purpose.

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Speaker 1: But but be that as it may made a story

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Speaker 1: for another day when we talk about the first flying

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Speaker 1: car that also got approved in your Google Google as

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Speaker 1: you will, sorry to just to your point, but I

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Speaker 1: think the reason for that is probably to keep people

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Speaker 1: from getting into like road rage incidents, because nothing worse

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Speaker 1: than an aggressive horn being laid on and then all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, before you know it, you're flying into

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Speaker 1: a rage and you're getting out of your car and

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Speaker 1: bludgending someone to death with like a screwdriver. Can you

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Speaker 1: blund it with a screw Dre'll be more of a stabbing,

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Speaker 1: but you know, a little dainty horn harder to trigger

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Speaker 1: that kind of reaction. That's my two cents. I I

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Speaker 1: maybe I yield, I yield the floor. I mean we

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Speaker 1: went down a rabbit hole with that before. Just before

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Speaker 1: begin um with programmable customizable car horn noises. You know,

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Speaker 1: the AUGA is the most popular one, but one time

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Speaker 1: I ran into a guy who had kitted out vintage

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Speaker 1: VW bug so that it when you hit the horn,

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Speaker 1: it played that horrendous sound goat smake that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a person yelling, Oh it's worse. Have you looked it up,

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Speaker 1: their clips of it, it's it's like, oh God, okay, okay,

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Speaker 1: so maybe that will work. Truckers. Let us know if

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Speaker 1: you're allowed to customize your horns. But while you are,

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Speaker 1: while you're composing your email or your call to us,

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Speaker 1: where we're one eight three three std w y t K,

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Speaker 1: we would like to share some stories with you running

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Speaker 1: the gamuts between some very obscure rituals UH conspiracy in

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Speaker 1: the world of music and entertainment. That's pretty well, at

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Speaker 1: least something that I was very invested in for a time,

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Speaker 1: and some more responses to our earlier work on the

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Speaker 1: troubled team industry, as well as what's often called UH

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Speaker 1: conversion therapy, which again I think we've all, or at

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Speaker 1: least I've made pretty strong oppositional stance to this one.

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Speaker 1: So some of these conversations may be familiar to you

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Speaker 1: and to our fellow listeners, but we received something fascinating,

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Speaker 1: something bizarre that you pointed out, Matt, And for people

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Speaker 1: who dig into this stuff constantly, it was surprisingly arduous

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Speaker 1: to find more information, at least on my end. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: you're you're absolutely correct. Let's ahead and listen throw to

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Speaker 1: this as a voicemail that we received a while back,

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Speaker 1: and we'll move on from there after listening to it. Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be anonymous for this one because this

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Speaker 1: was shared with me and confidentiality. But I just was

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Speaker 1: listening to your episode about curses and I wanna decided

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Speaker 1: to whether or not they're real. But this story that

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Speaker 1: I heard was extremely compelling and also affected me when

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Speaker 1: it was shared with me. So this story is from Alberta.

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Speaker 1: I think I'm not positive about that, but I think

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Speaker 1: it's from Alberta. To help you narrow it down. So

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Speaker 1: there was a woman, and I also don't know the

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Speaker 1: time frame. There was a woman who murdered her husband

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Speaker 1: to use either the act of murder or his body

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Speaker 1: or his blood or something in some type of ritual

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Speaker 1: and was then caught and charged for murder. And she

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Speaker 1: cursed everyone involved with her trial, the police, officers, the lawyers,

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Speaker 1: the judge, whoever else to be and more intimately involved

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Speaker 1: with such a such a trial. And within I think

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Speaker 1: a year maybe less, of her cursing this group of people,

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Speaker 1: one of them got sprain cancer, another got another form

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Speaker 1: of cancer that later killed him. I think some of

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Speaker 1: the police officers also became ill, but I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the details. If you guys wanted to dig into this,

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Speaker 1: I know it's rather light on the identifying detail, but

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Speaker 1: I really can't share um more with you without out

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Speaker 1: a portraying confidence or also just my memory is not

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Speaker 1: fantastic I heard several years ago. But loving your show, guys,

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Speaker 1: keep it up. I'm really happy there's more to listen

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Speaker 1: to every week, and if you find anything, I'd love

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Speaker 1: to hear about it on your show later. Right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So we got that message and immediately we we were interested. I,

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Speaker 1: you know, personally, was searching everywhere I possibly could online.

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Speaker 1: I was looking through dated articles from you know, that

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Speaker 1: time frame that she gave. It could have been anywhere

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Speaker 1: between five years to a decade to maybe even longer.

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Speaker 1: I searched every year, specifically in Alberta and different parts

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Speaker 1: of Canada, and I couldn't find any court cases, in

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Speaker 1: any legal documents, any even trials that would come close

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Speaker 1: to the details that existed here. UM. I couldn't find

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Speaker 1: any criminal like criminal justice statements even or press releases

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Speaker 1: that would that came anywhere close to this story that

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Speaker 1: was told to us on that listener mail. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like walking into a blockbuster if anybody remembers those

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Speaker 1: and said, I'm looking for that movie with the person, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, or a record store where it's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: the one with the what are they called drums? Is

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Speaker 1: the one with the drums? But Alberta, you're right, Matt.

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Speaker 1: Alberta was in the message from our dear anonymous caller,

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Speaker 1: and I looked as well and was having some difficulty

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Speaker 1: finding it. So I'm reassured if I know you could

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Speaker 1: you were having some obstacles too well. I wasn't satisfied there,

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Speaker 1: so I called this person who left this message, and

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Speaker 1: after getting this person's voicemail, I realized why UM anonymity

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Speaker 1: was important and why perhaps there we couldn't get more details.

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Speaker 1: From that end, we ended up actually connecting. I talked

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Speaker 1: to this person for quite a while, and the two

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Speaker 1: of us together are attempted to track down something some

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Speaker 1: kind of bread crumb that existed online uh and we

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Speaker 1: were unsuccessful. So then it moved to searching for some

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Speaker 1: occurrence where a spouse was killed for a for ritual

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Speaker 1: purposes of some kind. Then there was a trial and

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Speaker 1: a public cursing that occurred within that trial. I know

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Speaker 1: that sounds weird. Maybe it's not something that would be

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Speaker 1: reported on. I couldn't find it anywhere in the world

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Speaker 1: where this specific thing had occurred, but I found something

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Speaker 1: very interesting that maybe associated with it, but I don't

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Speaker 1: think so because of the time frame. So I want

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Speaker 1: to read through this story that I did find that

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Speaker 1: unfortunately comes from a rather dubious source. I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: read you the headline and brace yourselves. It comes from

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Speaker 1: mirrort code dot uk. Okay, here we go. Wife murders

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Speaker 1: abusive husband in perverted black magic ritual. Okay, it's at

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Speaker 1: least closer to a lot of the other stuff I found.

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Speaker 1: Just with the headline says the suspect tried to hide

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Speaker 1: the smell of the rotting corpse withincense, but later confessed. Okay,

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Speaker 1: already grizzly. I'll take you through some of the details here.

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Speaker 1: The woman's name is Clia Fernando Maximo to Silva, and

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Speaker 1: allegedly she confessed to murdering uh this person, Carlo Kitchelli,

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Speaker 1: who again in the mirror, is reportedly her husband. But

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Speaker 1: then if you look at the at the subtitles on

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Speaker 1: some of the images, he is referred to as her boyfriend,

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Speaker 1: so I'm a little unsure as to what their relationship was.

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Speaker 1: But according to at least the Mirror dot Code dot UK,

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Speaker 1: she essentially enacted revenge on this person that was abusive

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Speaker 1: to her, and she did it in a kind of

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Speaker 1: a weird way. But the big thing is that this

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Speaker 1: was from November two thousand eighteen when it was posted.

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Speaker 1: Um so I don't think this is the case which

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Speaker 1: we're which our caller was referring to. But Ben, you

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Speaker 1: said there there's some Brazilian sources that have slightly better information.

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Speaker 1: Maybe well they have some local sources we found to

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Speaker 1: have a few more details about the case. Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: the testimony of clay as teenager, the testimony of her

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Speaker 1: fourteen year old son, is what really sealed the deal,

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Speaker 1: which is distressing to say the least, because for a

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Speaker 1: time he was just considered missing and people go missing

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Speaker 1: every single hour of every single day. She said that

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Speaker 1: she had killed him during a black magic ritual that

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Speaker 1: she had been forced to participate in against her will.

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Speaker 1: She also says that when she met uh Ccello, she

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Speaker 1: met him in Italy, right and when she first met him.

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Speaker 1: He came up to her with like a kid that

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Speaker 1: had crack, cocaine and stuff in it. So he was

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Speaker 1: he was living wild. And it takes us to a

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Speaker 1: troubling point, I think, based on the local reports, which

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Speaker 1: is did she feel as though she was acting in

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Speaker 1: self defense? You know what I mean? Already, like being

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Speaker 1: forced to participate in a magic ritual, being forced to

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Speaker 1: participate in anything is already a very uh, very dangerous proposition,

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Speaker 1: right because you're not consenting to it. Uh. And she

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Speaker 1: did confess. I believe she came forward and said, yes,

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Speaker 1: I did it, but here's why. Uh. And she also

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Speaker 1: said she had been assaulted by this lawyer multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Neighbors were unsuspicious. By the way, if if that, if

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Speaker 1: her son hadn't said anything, then it's possible that if

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Speaker 1: she didn't get away, it could have the case could

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Speaker 1: have continued at least for a while. But when when

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Speaker 1: they found him, he had been dead for thirty nine days.

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Speaker 1: So so there's like a Faulkner aspect to it, a

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Speaker 1: Faulkner sque aspect like rose for Emily. Yeah, that's intense stuff.

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Speaker 1: And again, like if you're trying to find English language

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Speaker 1: news sources on this, you are essentially out of luck

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Speaker 1: unless you're willing to read the Daily Star or Mirror

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Speaker 1: the Mirror dot K. Yeah, it's um, it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit frustrating, Like I want to know more about this,

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Speaker 1: but as I'm going through Google Translate will only take

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Speaker 1: you so far as to getting a full understanding of

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Speaker 1: what's going on. Um, because I don't see anything further,

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Speaker 1: do you see anything been past when charges were initially

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Speaker 1: brought on her, because as of as of this article,

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Speaker 1: shed Silva was in was being held essentially, but no

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Speaker 1: charges have been brought at that time. Yeah, so I

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Speaker 1: without doing the same amount of digging I would do

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Speaker 1: for like a full episode on this, I'm I'm seeing

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Speaker 1: some dead end trails. I need a little more time

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Speaker 1: to teach myself enough Portuguese to figure out all of this.

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Speaker 1: But we do know that back in November two years ago,

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Speaker 1: the police still had not ruled out possible additional suspects.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the idea of magical ritual does open up

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Speaker 1: the possibility that there could have been other people involved

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Speaker 1: to one degree or another. So right now, like as

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Speaker 1: of that point, uh. In an article you can read

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Speaker 1: on Gazette web uh uh investigators were still trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out whether the motive for the murder was revenge

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Speaker 1: or self defense, or whether it was financial. Because this

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Speaker 1: the Italian national, the lawyer had been relying on his

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Speaker 1: family in Italy for money, possibly under pressure from his

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Speaker 1: his relationship in Brazil. So it's sticky, and I think

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Speaker 1: we do need to we do need to find some

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Speaker 1: more local reporting, at least maybe at least nineteen or something.

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Speaker 1: We have to consider too that it may have. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's quite possible the trail is going a little cold,

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Speaker 1: just because COVID has massively slowed a lot of court

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Speaker 1: proceedings throughout Brazil and the world, and and just saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you are looking through and attempting as

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Speaker 1: we did to find this particular story, you will see

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Speaker 1: several coming out of I see one story from Zimbabwe

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Speaker 1: that I was following up on, one from Ghana, uh,

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Speaker 1: couple other stories. There's one from CBC about a a

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Speaker 1: pagan fire ritual that went wrong and a woman ended

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Speaker 1: up getting badly burned and then perishing from her wounds.

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Speaker 1: But nothing that is nothing that is lining up. So

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Speaker 1: if you somehow know about this story, you know something

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Speaker 1: that occurred and can send us information, whether it is

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Speaker 1: in writing, if you can just call and leave some

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Speaker 1: more information about it. If you can find us, you know,

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Speaker 1: especially some kind of news story, please send it our way.

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Speaker 1: We would love to know more. Maybe it's just uh,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not real, maybe it's not something that happened

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Speaker 1: and the joke is on us. But if not, please

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Speaker 1: please and you know anything, send us your information. We

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Speaker 1: would love to hear from you. Agreed, And with that

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick commercial break and be right

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Speaker 1: back with some more listener mail. All right, and we're

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Speaker 1: back more listener mail. UM, A few fellas, don't mind.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to do one that's largely going to be uh.

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Speaker 1: Some excerpts from a very very thoughtful listener mail um

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Speaker 1: that an anonymous listener wrote us about conversion therapy. UM.

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Speaker 1: It's quite long, and want to give short shrift to

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Speaker 1: this super thoughtful and confessional telling of of an inside

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Speaker 1: perspective on conversion therapy. As many folks may know, that's

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Speaker 1: the concept of going into a treatment hard quote fingers

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Speaker 1: there that um will remove any same sex attraction, let's say,

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Speaker 1: and it is a heavily based in religion, you really

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Speaker 1: extreme forms of evangelical religion, and it has been described

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Speaker 1: often by those who have experienced it as psychological abuse,

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Speaker 1: gas lighting, you know, a litany of pretty nasty, manipulative

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Speaker 1: techniques that go into what is essentially convincing someone that

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Speaker 1: what they are inherently is bad and is against this religion.

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Speaker 1: And often the folks that allow themselves to be to

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Speaker 1: submit to it. I mean often it can be you know,

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Speaker 1: forced upon them by very strong, you know, heavy handed parents,

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Speaker 1: perhaps at a young age. But a lot of times

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Speaker 1: it's done willingly because there's a lot of guilt and

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Speaker 1: a lot of self loathing wrapped up in the choice

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Speaker 1: to be who you are, who you feel that you are,

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Speaker 1: and what your religion says that thing means in terms

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Speaker 1: of the content of your quality of your character. Uh So,

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Speaker 1: let's just get right into it. On a recent podcast,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned conversion therapy. I had a year's long involvement

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Speaker 1: with various facets of conversion therapy, and while it was

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Speaker 1: not the most malicious type, I was not subjected to

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Speaker 1: any physical abuse, it was far from benign. I am

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Speaker 1: a Mormon growing up in a small town in Idaho,

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Speaker 1: homosexuality was rarely spoken of. When it was, it was

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Speaker 1: in the form of my dad being disgusted by the

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Speaker 1: pride parade taking place in a nearby town, or when

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Speaker 1: it was given as a reason to turn off a movie.

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Speaker 1: But those occurrences were rare. It was mostly unspoken, Hence

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Speaker 1: I did not know I was gay through my teenage years.

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Speaker 1: I actually believed you didn't developer manic feelings for someone

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Speaker 1: until after you started kissing, So I said, I just

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Speaker 1: won't kiss until I'm ready to get married. Um. Looking back,

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Speaker 1: I had many crushes, from my science teacher in seventh

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Speaker 1: grade to the ginger who sat next to me an

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Speaker 1: eighth or my best friend in high school who I

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Speaker 1: just wanted to grow old and live in the house

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Speaker 1: next door with him. Um. I didn't have the vocabulary,

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Speaker 1: so I contorted my views to fit the version of

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Speaker 1: reality I was taught. I did the Mormon mission for

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Speaker 1: two years from ages nine teena twenty one. Here is

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Speaker 1: where I could no longer deny I was different. I

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Speaker 1: was assigned a companion who I was told to be

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Speaker 1: with an e or ear shot seven. It was here,

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Speaker 1: apart from my family and friends, with only my religion

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Speaker 1: that I started a fifteen year journey to acceptance. I

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Speaker 1: had an incident when I was rough housing with an elder. UM.

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Speaker 1: I was broken. I could not deny these were sexual feelings.

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Speaker 1: I told the president of the mission, who sent me

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Speaker 1: to a vetted psychologist, vetted by, of course, the church. UM.

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Speaker 1: I was sure I was going to help. How could

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Speaker 1: I allow myself to become gay? I read books from

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Speaker 1: church authorities on the matter. They all said that this

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Speaker 1: was something that could be overcome. They gave various reasons

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Speaker 1: I was this way. Perhaps my parents didn't show enough

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Speaker 1: affection in front of me. One said masturbation led to homosexuality.

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Speaker 1: If that were the case, there would be a lot

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Speaker 1: more gay people around. Um here and then me links

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Speaker 1: some uh to some of the books that he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, given in this program, all of which are

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Speaker 1: out of print u UM. But I poured over those

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Speaker 1: and many others, and I was sent to a therapist.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to say what happened. I was ashamed.

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Speaker 1: Eventually I told the man. He then asked me twenty

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Speaker 1: questions to determine if I was indeed gay. He concluded

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Speaker 1: that because I had not had sex with a man,

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Speaker 1: I was not a homosexual. He said, MY problem was

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Speaker 1: the sin of ingratitude for the body God gave me,

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Speaker 1: and if I were grateful, I could overcome it. Even

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Speaker 1: by my confused state. I knew that didn't make sense,

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Speaker 1: but I left our visits resolved to get married and

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Speaker 1: send them man a wedding invitation to show him his

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Speaker 1: faith in my straightness had been correct. So I mean

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Speaker 1: that in and of itself, UM speaks volumes to this

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Speaker 1: kind of what would you say, institutionalized rejection of of

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Speaker 1: something that I think we, most of us hopefully can

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Speaker 1: accept is very much just a part of you know,

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Speaker 1: who people are. I think society has largely evolved beyond

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Speaker 1: this notion that that you know, your sexual livities are choice. UM,

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Speaker 1: but maybe not. I don't know, what do you guys think?

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Speaker 1: They think there's there's definitely more to this and and

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Speaker 1: his journey, you know, to finally accepting this, because he

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Speaker 1: obviously comes full circle UM and has accepted the fact

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Speaker 1: that he is gay. It led to seeing several of

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Speaker 1: these conversion therapists, one of which UM he talks about

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Speaker 1: his experience with just someone basically saying, just ignore it

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Speaker 1: if you focus on it too much you reinforce this pattern, um,

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Speaker 1: and you'll like men more than before. And of course

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Speaker 1: that didn't work. And then he has some links to

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Speaker 1: an article from the Guardian from this Gentleman's practice about

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Speaker 1: the generman's practice in his website. Um. And then of

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Speaker 1: course struggle with depression. And he never, you know, just

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Speaker 1: completely closing himself off to any of these experiences, never

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Speaker 1: experimenting with another man, just like looking at this as

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Speaker 1: an absolute sentence to you know, eternity in hell. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then he he signs up for something called Journey

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Speaker 1: into Manhood and uh. And then that's where he says,

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Speaker 1: and in Ben's best voice, here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: So this is this is the important part here. Journey

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Speaker 1: into Manhood or j i M as its participants call it,

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Speaker 1: is a seventy two hour experimental weekend. They don't tell

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Speaker 1: you before what will happen, they said. It needs to

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Speaker 1: remain a secret to have the greatest effect. When I

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Speaker 1: signed up, I planned on driving myself so I could

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Speaker 1: easily leave if I didn't like what was going on.

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Speaker 1: I was contacted by the travel coordinator and pressured into

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Speaker 1: car pooling. This is all very red flag, they said,

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Speaker 1: there was limited parking on site. Lie, he says in privacies,

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Speaker 1: and they would really prefer I drive with someone, so

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Speaker 1: I did. In fact, I went in someone else's car

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Speaker 1: so much for being able to leave early. The group

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Speaker 1: driver was so instructed to collect all cell phones and

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Speaker 1: locked them in his car so you would not have

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Speaker 1: any distraction during the weekend. We arrived at the repurposed

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Speaker 1: summer camp in the afternoon. I gave them three postponed

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Speaker 1: postdated checks to cover the six d ney dollar tuition

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Speaker 1: and was given an agreement to sign. Part of the

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Speaker 1: agreement included a five thousand dollar payment to the organization

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Speaker 1: if I spoke ill of it online or revealed any

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Speaker 1: of the secrets of the weekend U and then he

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Speaker 1: links to a medium article that does just that. Uh

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Speaker 1: and he says his experiences were very similar. He mainly

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Speaker 1: did exercises designed to elicit a cathartic response. He remembers

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Speaker 1: the holding when you ask a man to hold you. Sure,

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Speaker 1: that makes you feel good, especially if you're gay, But

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Speaker 1: how does that make you straight? I resisted this, it

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Speaker 1: didn't make sense. They told us to find someone in

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Speaker 1: the group who gave us a charge. I went for

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Speaker 1: a frumpy old man. I had no charge for this

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Speaker 1: is the first time I've been physical with a man. Sure,

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Speaker 1: they said it wasn't romantic, and for me it wasn't,

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Speaker 1: but they were breaking down the barriers for all of

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Speaker 1: us in this instance and others. I felt immense pressure

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Speaker 1: to participate in this holding as a gathering after the weekend.

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Speaker 1: When I refused, the group leader instructed the group of

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Speaker 1: twelve or so men to stare at me for five minutes.

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Speaker 1: I didn't crack. It just seemed weird. So I think

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Speaker 1: this is we should probably use this and and reach

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Speaker 1: out to this listener. And uh, I think this definitely

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Speaker 1: warrants another episode, full episode, you know, on this idea

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Speaker 1: of conversion therapy, because it's this seems very similar to

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Speaker 1: the news article we did, matt Um that you found

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Speaker 1: about these kind of kidnapping, you know, groups that that

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Speaker 1: like trying to whip you know, problem children into shape,

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Speaker 1: you know, but this is even more nefarious, it seems. Yeah, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's very it's very strange. There's a lot here that

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Speaker 1: this person sent to us, Um. And you know, we

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Speaker 1: had discussed possibly covering conversion therapy in a larger context,

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Speaker 1: and I think this email is probably a good reason

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Speaker 1: to do that. This this whole what what was it

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Speaker 1: called journey into Manhoo. It's right, seventy two hour weekend um.

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Speaker 1: That article, there's an article from medium dot com that

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Speaker 1: he sent here, and it is a very interesting psychological

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Speaker 1: thing that is placed on on individuals. To me, it is, uh,

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00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 1: it's definitely troubling that this is still occurring because it's

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Speaker 1: not as though these kinds of conversion therapy institutions, camps,

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Speaker 1: programs have gone away. You know, you're you're talking about

399
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Speaker 1: how Noel Shirley that we've kind of changed, right, But

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Speaker 1: I think on an individual level it's happening, and on

401
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: a cultural level it the change is happening, but it

402
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: is still there is a lot of work to be

403
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Speaker 1: done still to get society as a whole, as one

404
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: united front to say yes, you know, we we are

405
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Speaker 1: who we are and that is okay outside of any

406
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: you know, societal or religious context. Yeah, no, that's right, man.

407
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Speaker 1: And I again I'm saying I think sometimes we were

408
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: we exist, not that we're putting blinders on or closing

409
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Speaker 1: ourselves off from the world, but we exist in a

410
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: little bit of a bubble with the people that we

411
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: know and interact with that we all you know, this

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00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: has never been an issue. And again, like my kid

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Speaker 1: and your kid, and and a lot of kids of

414
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 1: you know, friends we have our age are growing up

415
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,879
Speaker 1: without any preconceived ideas about this stuff. But we have

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00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: to also remember that they're not growing up in these

417
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 1: very heavily dogmatic kind of environments, and that stuff is

418
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Speaker 1: hard to shake, you know. And you can't blame the

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Speaker 1: kid and then ultimately the adult for struggling with these

420
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Speaker 1: things when it's all they've ever been shown, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and and the saddest part of this email is

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Speaker 1: is the ending. I mean, he talks about like happy ending,

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Speaker 1: Maybe not really, because it's like he says, i'm I'm,

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Speaker 1: I've he's essentially accepted that he's gay, but he doesn't

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Speaker 1: date men and he still worked within the church. Um,

426
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 1: he says, well, I don't date women. I also don't

427
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: date men. I have a good life if you ignore

428
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: the lack of romance. UM, I have some amazing friends

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00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 1: who know I'm gay and don't care. Would they care

430
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: if I were not the safe Mormon and dating men?

431
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. I find that heartbreaking. You know, it's

432
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: like to to say, Okay, I've accepted this thing about myself,

433
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna do anything about it. And and

434
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure if my friends would accept me

435
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: if I did. Um and I would just say to

436
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: to the this, this listener, you can do better than that,

437
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: you know, I think, I mean in terms of the

438
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 1: people you surround yourself with, I'm not I mean, whatever,

439
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: who am I to say what your life should be

440
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: or what your level of comfort should be? This is

441
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: also complicated, and let me retract that. I just mean,

442
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's possible that there's a version

443
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: of this that you don't have to feel like you're

444
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 1: looking over your shoulder or like, what if I'm not

445
00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: accepted because I decide to go and become go further

446
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: into this thing, you know, which is just I'm making

447
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: it sound like it's some kind of crazy thing. It's

448
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: literally just having romantic attachment to your chosen gender. You know,

449
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: It's just I mean, I just it's it's hard for

450
00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: me to say that's all all there is and all

451
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: there needs to be and but but again it's not

452
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: in my life. But it just makes me, Hey, I

453
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,679
Speaker 1: wanted to get into one more thing that's written in

454
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: this email that we received from our listener. UM. And

455
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: he's speaking about after going to this seventy two hour

456
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: thing that they call a journey into manhood. Uh. He says,

457
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: there are holding nights where you get together and sign

458
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: a paper never to reveal what happens. Then you all

459
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: hold each other. We touched on that briefly, but this

460
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: is like an actual event based around this practice. But

461
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: and this is after you're done with that seventy two

462
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 1: hour camp. Essentially, there's like it's an organization that you

463
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: are now working with and have going to meetings essentially. UM.

464
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,959
Speaker 1: And what he's saying is that it's a breeding ground

465
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: for grooming and this is really the stuff they don't

466
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: want you to know. In this older men would call

467
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: up young men to quote get their needs met, which

468
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: means holding. And while you can always say no, you're

469
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,239
Speaker 1: taught that this is important for you to provide this

470
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: for others. This person would see sixty year olds calling

471
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: nineteen year olds for holding nights, and he just saying

472
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: that it's insidious because it is sold to you in

473
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: one way, this is a means to cure the ailment

474
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: and I'm giving massive quotation marks here that this program

475
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: is attempting to cure to work on when in actuality

476
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: it appears to be something very very different. And he

477
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: goes on to say that what you don't realize while

478
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: you're going through this program is that what you're doing

479
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: is actually just cuddling with someone in the romantic feelings

480
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: are very natural when you're when you're in that position,

481
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: when when you're when you're taking that action, and it's

482
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: just this very strange thing, this journey into manhood thing

483
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: that I think we just I want to look into

484
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: it further. I want to understand what is actually going

485
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: on there UM, because it does feel it does feel

486
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: very very odd to me. Yeah, I agreed. This is

487
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 1: first off, anonymous, thank you for writing to us with UM.

488
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: But the heroine, as we said earlier, crucially important account.

489
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: It's often said that we do not know how we

490
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:45,160
Speaker 1: affect people. We never will we'll never meet, you know.

491
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons that this is a personal episode. Honestly,

492
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I've been quiet during this segment

493
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: is because I have some again very strong personal opinions

494
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:01,840
Speaker 1: and opposition to these kind of practices and do want

495
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: to be objective and will do so in a future episode,

496
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 1: But anonymous on behalf of everyone who is listening to

497
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: this and may find themselves in a similar situation. Uh,

498
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: thank you, because you are doing a tremendous service by

499
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: by sharing your experience and and it couldn't have been

500
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: easy to tell us this story, to write this email.

501
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: I think it's important for us to kick a few

502
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: statistics to your earlier point and all about the possibility

503
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: of living in a bubble. As of June eighteen, states

504
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: have banned healthcare professionals from using conversion therapy, but it's

505
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: difficult to prosecute because it comes under a couple of

506
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: different names, you know. And again that's not anywhere near

507
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: a majority of states just in this country that have

508
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: banned it. Uh. This stuff has been it's active in

509
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: some form for over a century. Uh Uh. I don't

510
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: want to get lost in numbers again. But there there's

511
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 1: a wealth of information out there that indicates how damaging

512
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: this can be. So we are doing an episode about this.

513
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: We need to hear from you. If you are okay sharing,

514
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 1: then we will keep an anonymity if you wish. Uh.

515
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 1: But in the interim. For anybody who is struggling at

516
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: this time, we would highly recommend checking out something called

517
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: the Trevor Project, founded in it's the leading national organization

518
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: providing crisis intervention and suicide prevention services to l g

519
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: B t Q people under the age of You can

520
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: call them directly whenever you're you're hearing this, you can

521
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: like our number is well and good, please call us.

522
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: But if you need help, call this number first one

523
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: eight six six four eight eight seven three eight six.

524
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: Thanks Ben. I think that's super helpful and something that

525
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: many folks could certainly benefit from. UM. And and again

526
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: thanks Anonymous for the incredibly informative UM email. And I

527
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: think there's a lot more to unpack here, uh moving forward,

528
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 1: So let's do that in a in a larger episode

529
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: I think in the future. And in the meantime we'll

530
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: take a quick break and then have a little more

531
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: listener mail. And we have returned for one more piece

532
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 1: of listener correspondence. Anonymous, you wrote in and asked us

533
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: a question that I think, Uh, I think it's been

534
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: on all three of our minds, but not I think

535
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: you and I had speculated about this at length in

536
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: days of Yore. Oh yeah, let's let's hear it. Hey, guys,

537
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: I listened to your show quite a bit. Uh, big

538
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: big fan. I've called a couple of times with some

539
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: pretty ridiculous stuff, but I actually do have a pretty

540
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: cool um you know, just like something that that's bothered

541
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 1: me for a long time. Uh, not necessarily bothered, but

542
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: this is an open ended question. Uh, with the death

543
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: of Notorious the I g. It seems like it just

544
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: happened and it was all there was a lead and

545
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 1: then it was just like case closed. And I kind

546
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: of had done my own little bit of research you

547
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: days ago, and it's so much bigger than just a

548
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,040
Speaker 1: quick Google search. I mean, there's so many conspiratorial things

549
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,400
Speaker 1: out there, and um, people who are very passionate about,

550
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: you know, what they believe actually happened, you know, from

551
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: an inside job with the l A p D to

552
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: rival gang stuff, And it would just be cool to

553
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:42,680
Speaker 1: listen to a full breakdown of your guys's opinion. Anyway,

554
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: That's all I got doculated. I don't care if you

555
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: hear my voice, but I'm just laughing because I'm so

556
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 1: thankful that you included that last bit. They're anonymous that

557
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,879
Speaker 1: we could use your voice. So that's my cat leave

558
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: it in anonymous. Thank you so much for calling in.

559
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: You're asking us about one of the legends in both

560
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: the world of hip hop and the world of conspiracy,

561
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 1: the death of Christopher Wallace, also known as Biggie Smalls,

562
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: also known as the notorious b I g uh In.

563
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: On March nine, Wallace was fatally shot at a stoplight

564
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. At the time, the murder was thought

565
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: to be a culmination of an ongoing feud between East

566
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: and West Coast musical actives, right because Tupac Shakorp had

567
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: been murdered just six months before, and this in this point,

568
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: in this fertile conspiratorial soil, uh there were many people

569
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: already arguing that Tupac had faked his death and was

570
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: living in Cuba. And you'll see people arguing that today,

571
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 1: especially the with the um obsessive parscene of lyrics and

572
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: symbols as interpreted through album covers that includes me, By

573
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: the way, what's up I think Tupacs of the lot

574
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 1: in Cuba? Do you think so? Well? I thought it

575
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: for a really long time, like I thought he was

576
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 1: going to come back in seven years because of the

577
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 1: whole seven day theory. So after the seven years past,

578
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, maybe he actually is did or

579
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: maybe he's just never coming back. I think we were

580
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: all kind of holding out for for that seven year window.

581
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:35,640
Speaker 1: It was very much what if window. Uh. Yes. Interestingly enough,

582
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: we haven't seen as much conspiratorial stuff related to B

583
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,719
Speaker 1: I G. As we have with Tupac Shature, but there's

584
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: a very you know, there's a very American genre of conspiracy.

585
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: We don't like to let our celebrities die, right, Kurt Cobain,

586
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: Elvis Pressley, numerous actors of yesteryear. Um, I guess to

587
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: start off this conversation, I would ask, you know, what

588
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: do you guys remember when Notorious B I G Got shot?

589
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,879
Speaker 1: We're all pretty young, I think, sure, yeah. In my mind,

590
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: I want to say it was like ninety four ninety five,

591
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: but I think it was later. It was like more

592
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: like ninety seven, you know, yep, yep, March N. I

593
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: do remember, like, maybe not as viscerally because this has

594
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: nothing to do with anything, but I just wasn't as

595
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: much of a hip hop fan at that time yet,

596
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: and so it wasn't as much of my radar. Of course,

597
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: it was a big story. Um, I did not know

598
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:34,640
Speaker 1: the music of either Tupac or Biggie at the time. Um,

599
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 1: and so like something like Kurt Cobain's suicide was much

600
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 1: more on my radar than that. But because of the

601
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: way it was picked up by the zeitgeists and became

602
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: instantly this fodder for you know, foul play and conspiracy talk,

603
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: it's certainly caught my interest pretty quickly. Yeah, it was

604
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: certainly a very very big deal when it occurred. Um. Similarly,

605
00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: my musical tastes were elsewhere at the time. Um, like

606
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: I told you guys, it was all Christian rock, all

607
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: all day, all all all the time. And uh fortunately

608
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,880
Speaker 1: unfortunately Notorious b I G and Tupac we're both speaking

609
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: above my head at the time. But it was, Yeah,

610
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,479
Speaker 1: it was a big deal. And I think, I think

611
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: what so visceral is, like the MTV news reports and

612
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: how much was made in that realm early on after

613
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: after both deaths, and there was so much, there was

614
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: so much mystery to it. But at the same time

615
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: it felt like, oh, these are two major figures within

616
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: the realm of this new rap world where there is

617
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: there is fighting on either end of the United States

618
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 1: about you know who rules, who rules this new space?

619
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: That it felt almost mythical in a way, like right

620
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: off the bat when when the news broke and I

621
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: think that really that really led to the speculation. I

622
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 1: don't know, that has just continued to grow and grow

623
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: and grow and grow. Yeah, I think it's astute. A

624
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: Greek tragedy with larger than life characters and their own misfortunes,

625
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,720
Speaker 1: writ large in a way that is to a degree

626
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: anomalous with the struggles the US culture overall encounters at

627
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: the time. You know, it shows how one conspiracy leads

628
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 1: inevitably to the next. L A p D at that

629
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: time and for years afterwards, was cartoonishly corrupt, and they

630
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: were in charge of the investigation, right and and consider

631
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 1: that in two thousand and three, Uh the a friend

632
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: of Sugar Knights who will be familiar with anyone familiar

633
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: with this story, named wardel Pucci was was suspected of

634
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: being the trigger man, if not the ultimate power behind

635
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: the bullet in the death of b I. G Uh

636
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: In two thousand three, he was murdered, which, of course,

637
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: if you think there's something's more sketchy to the story

638
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 1: that then, of course, that seems like evidence of a

639
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 1: greater conspiracy. Interestingly enough, I don't know if a lot

640
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: of people know this, but so Biggie was shot uh

641
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: in March nine. Part of the reason the conspiracies grew

642
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: it was because Biggie's autopsy report was not released until

643
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: December of two thousand twelve, fifteen years after his murder. Wow. Wow,

644
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: I wonder what what caused it to come out? Then?

645
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 1: It must have been it must have been some people

646
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 1: looking into it, um, some researchers who are maybe working

647
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: on a project for you know, entertainment purposes, film or television,

648
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 1: doing a documentary something. I wonder if they uncovered it

649
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 1: and got it released through freedom of information or something.

650
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. It's a good question, you know. And just

651
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: like the just like, as you said, the Greek tragedies, right,

652
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 1: Tupac and Biggie both used to be friends and then uh,

653
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: and then they met with such untimely ends. The largest

654
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about this are typically going to implicate Sugar

655
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:31,680
Speaker 1: Night directly as the orchestrator, the composer of this um

656
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 1: this terrible event. But at this point, both murders Chubox,

657
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: s Core and Notorious b I G remain officially unsolved,

658
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 1: which which is bizarre because you would think in the

659
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: case of this level of celebrity, this level of renown,

660
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,120
Speaker 1: that they would there would be much more effort put

661
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: into figuring out what happened. And again that's out to

662
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 1: say there wasn't effort put into it, but that is

663
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: to say that that effort officially uh seems to have

664
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: met with bub kiss uh. There were multiple civil lawsuits

665
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: against l A p D, against you know, local authorities.

666
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: There have been numerous works documentaries serious journalism, such as

667
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 1: the Murder Biggie Smalls and two thousand so before the

668
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: autopsy was released, where journalist Cathy Scott said that the

669
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: record companies might have had a dirty hand to play

670
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: in this, which sounds nuts, but think about it. They

671
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 1: both of these people are prodigious artists. They have a

672
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: catalog such that they're continuing to make albums posthumously. Right,

673
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,359
Speaker 1: did the record companies figure that the rappers were worth

674
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 1: more dead than they were alive? That's troubling. Yeah, yeah,

675
00:42:56,680 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: that is really scary. And then that's a terrifying actual

676
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:05,720
Speaker 1: calculation when something terrible happens to someone who is rising

677
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 1: in popularity. If they die, then those works will You'll

678
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: never get another album, right, so then immediately the price

679
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: of those albums skyrocket. That that is as an awful

680
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 1: It's it's the same way like you have like you know,

681
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: Prince passing away or David Bowie passing away, and all

682
00:43:26,239 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 1: of a sudden their back catalog is just selling like

683
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,200
Speaker 1: hotcakes for two people that maybe never even cared or

684
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: like you know, gave them the time of day. It's

685
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: the same thing with that. When there's like tragedy behind

686
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: something or some level of mystery, especially, it just reinvigorates

687
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: people's imagination and their interest in it. And then you're right,

688
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: those become like these sacred documents that yeah, you could argue, well,

689
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: doesn't it make more sense than to just keep making

690
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: more product or does it make more sense to like,

691
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 1: you know, sanctify these handful of records that then will

692
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: like sell great forever and all time. I don't know.

693
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 1: It seems like a stretch to me, the notion that

694
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: the record labels in some way orchestrated this to manufacture

695
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: maybe manufacturing beef, but certainly not like having well, I

696
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: don't know they were there. They were essentially both of

697
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: these labels, especially Death Row, you know they were were

698
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: were a criminal organizations. I mean you have to hear

699
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: stories about Sugar Night intimidating people, you know, pistol whipping

700
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 1: people in public. I mean he is in prison for

701
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 1: I think running over a gentleman with his car um

702
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 1: and it's on you know, security cameras. So it's certainly

703
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: like when we say the record label, we're not talking

704
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 1: about a bunch of like, you know, executives in a

705
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: suite at Capital Records. These labels had genuine beef that

706
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: came from East coast West coast criminal rivalry as well.

707
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: It does feel like a stretch, but at the same

708
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: time in I don't know, I'm just looking into posthumous

709
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 1: albums now and now. I now, I'm just gonna go

710
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 1: down that rabbit hole for a while and find out

711
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: what kinds of albums came out after the death of

712
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 1: an artist by a label or a trust or you know,

713
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: some some entity that is representing an artist that died.

714
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: I quite enjoy that idea, Matt, because it could go

715
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,399
Speaker 1: across genres of music. But I would I would say

716
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: we don't have to go to an extreme level of

717
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 1: a record company purposely orchestrating murder. They could have, Uh,

718
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 1: they could have done other things that are sort of

719
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: in between those extremes. They could have known something was

720
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: probable or possible and decided not to intervene for one

721
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: reason or another. Uh. They could have just you know,

722
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: accelerated this beef to sell records and then later been

723
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 1: unable to control the escalation of it. Uh. And then,

724
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: of course, you know, there's the idea that they could alive.

725
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: The problem with that in the case of B I.

726
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: G is that you remember a second ago I mentioned

727
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: the release of the autopsy in two thousand twelve in December,

728
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 1: the l A p D argued that that was to

729
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: help generate new leads on the case, and the lawyer

730
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: for the estate was livid about this. Perry Sanders Jr.

731
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: At the time came out publicly and said, I thought

732
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 1: you would like this quote. It's juicy. Sanders Jr. Said,

733
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,759
Speaker 1: what legitimate lead could be stimulated by releasing an autopsy

734
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: that says Mr Wallace was shot? When everyone knows that,

735
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 1: why don't they release some of the clues they have?

736
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 1: So the idea here is that there's something else l

737
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: A p D still has, uh years and years later

738
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: that they haven't released. Do you guys think that's likely? Yeah,

739
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: if if I'm not mistaken, there in the in this

740
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 1: slow Burned season three UH podcast series on you know,

741
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: the murder of of G and tupac Um and the

742
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: way those two crimes connected, there is some kind of

743
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: revelation that they come out with if I'm not mistaken,

744
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 1: And I know there's a lot of uh stuff that

745
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: the l a p D covered up, and there are

746
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: some kind of tell all books from former l a

747
00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: p D cops that that do shed some light onto

748
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: that stuff, but I would need to to dig into

749
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: it a bit more personally, well, you know, just on

750
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 1: this subject, you guys, sorry, if you're just going back

751
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: to the posthumus records. I did not realize that Life

752
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: After Death from Notorious b I G. Was released two weeks,

753
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: like around almost exactly two weeks after he was shot,

754
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: and the one from that came out, Uh yeah, the

755
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 1: Killuminati album that came out like two months after he

756
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 1: was shot and killed, and the cover of it has

757
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: him hanging on a cross. Yeah, I don't. I mean

758
00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:00,359
Speaker 1: it is God, you could totally see why this ben

759
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 1: You're it's right on the money about like why this

760
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: thing has just been It's gotten a life of its own.

761
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: Really interesting though that they released it under maca Velli

762
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: and not Tupac Shakoor. I mean, it's clearly him. I

763
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: mean it's an image of him, like I said, hanging

764
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,279
Speaker 1: on the cross, but it does not say Tupac on

765
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: the on the cover, it says marca Velli. Did you

766
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: know Chris Gaines is Garth Brooks? That he's a master?

767
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: Speaking of which, there's a pretty good behind the music

768
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 1: about this too that has some good interviews with a

769
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: lot of the folks from the time, like well Kim

770
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: and some of the folks that were like witnesses and

771
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 1: so I mean that that's like hard news or anything,

772
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: but there is some interesting detail if you can find

773
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: that on YouTube. And uh, I know we're running a

774
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: time and didn't get to spend much with this one state,

775
00:48:44,239 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: but uh, in the interim, yes, there is a there

776
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:51,440
Speaker 1: is a treasure trove of valuable information here. This case

777
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 1: does remain unsolved. I'd love to do a deeper dive,

778
00:48:56,040 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: full episode on it. So FBI agent Phil Carson. If

779
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 1: you are a fan of stuff they don't want you

780
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: to know, please reach out to us and let us

781
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: let us know your take, and if you're okay doing

782
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: an interview, we'd love to hear from you. We'd also

783
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: love to hear from everyone who has hopefully survived the

784
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 1: conversion therapy UH industry here in the US and abroad.

785
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,720
Speaker 1: And we'd like to hear more information about what happened

786
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: to clear the self confessed murderer of this Italian lawyer,

787
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 1: because it looks like, as far as we could tell,

788
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 1: the trail went cold in or contact us and just

789
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 1: let us know a brand new idea. No matter what,

790
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,319
Speaker 1: we are always happy to hear from you. We try

791
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 1: to be easy to find. You can find us on Facebook,

792
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: you can find us on Instagram, you can find us

793
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter, you can find us anywhere. Basically. Yeah, you

794
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: can also give us an actual call and be a

795
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 1: part of the listener mail um the audio portion. You know.

796
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: If you want to be okay with us having your

797
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: voice on the show, just let us know. UM. You

798
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: can each us at st d w y t K.

799
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,759
Speaker 1: Try to limit your your voicemail to three minutes and

800
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: let us know if it's okay to use your your

801
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,879
Speaker 1: audio likeness, and we will do so absolutely. And check

802
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: out YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff to see videos

803
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: that we're posting up of these conversations. They're in more

804
00:50:20,239 --> 00:50:23,239
Speaker 1: bite sized snippets than this. You can share them with

805
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: your friends. Hopefully you will enjoy that. If you don't

806
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: want to do any of those things, you can still

807
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: reach us the good old fashioned way. We are conspiracy

808
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you

809
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: to Know is a production of I heart Radio. For

810
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i heart

811
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812
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