WEBVTT - Why Water Is Africa’s Next Precious Commodity

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Water It's essential to daily life and well being, but

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<v Speaker 2>across the African continent, investment into this resource is addressing

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<v Speaker 2>vastly different initiatives.

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<v Speaker 3>This project makes Lesutu probably one of the most impactful

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<v Speaker 3>countries in the world. In this says that this water

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<v Speaker 3>powers the biggest economic hub in Africa.

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<v Speaker 2>With some countries facing crippling water shortages and some others

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<v Speaker 2>with plenty to spare, water diplomacy is emerging as a

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<v Speaker 2>potential solution to help ease the disparities.

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<v Speaker 4>I often say to the Prime Minister of Lisutu, what

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<v Speaker 4>you get free from nature, you now package to sell

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<v Speaker 4>to us. You then ask us to come and build

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<v Speaker 4>the dam and build the channels to bring free water

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<v Speaker 4>to Howding to Hannesburg, and then you want money for it,

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<v Speaker 4>And he says, that's what small countries do.

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<v Speaker 2>On today's podcast, we'll look at a multi billion dollar

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<v Speaker 2>water sharing deal between Lesutu and its neighbors South Africa

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<v Speaker 2>and whether similar transnational deals can become commonplace across the continent.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Jennifer's Abasaja and this is the Next Africa Podcast,

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<v Speaker 2>bringing you one story each week from the continent, driving

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<v Speaker 2>the future of global growth with the context only Bloomberg

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<v Speaker 2>can provide. And in a moment, we're going to speak

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<v Speaker 2>with Olivier Kojels, who's had a fifty year career advising

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<v Speaker 2>governments across both Asia and Africa on water. He's also

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<v Speaker 2>former CEO of the Mekong River Commission. But first I'm

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<v Speaker 2>pleased to be joined by Bloomberg's Andre Pierre Duplaci, who

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<v Speaker 2>traveled with me to Lusutu to find out more about

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<v Speaker 2>progress on the Lusutu Highlands Water Project. We travel to

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<v Speaker 2>Li Su Tuo together and you know better than most

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<v Speaker 2>that this relationship between the Sutu and South Africa dates

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<v Speaker 2>quite a long way back. It'd be helpful, I think

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<v Speaker 2>for viewers and listeners to actually understand where this is

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<v Speaker 2>coming from before where it's going. Can you just give

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<v Speaker 2>us a bit of history about this project.

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, the story starts decades before this treaty was

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<v Speaker 5>signed in the nineteen eighties, so you know, people have

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<v Speaker 5>an eyeing list Cuitus water. As far back as the

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<v Speaker 5>nineteen fifties, engineers realized something quite remarkable. This small mountain kingdom,

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<v Speaker 5>which only makes up a tiny part of the basin

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<v Speaker 5>of the Orange River supplies a huge share of the

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<v Speaker 5>water because of its high rainfall and altitude. You know,

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<v Speaker 5>if you look at the topographic map of Southern Africa,

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<v Speaker 5>it's quite fascinating.

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<v Speaker 6>It's a spike all around Leasutu.

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<v Speaker 5>I think it's about one thousand meter or just about

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<v Speaker 5>three thousand foot in elevation. It's the highest independent nation

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<v Speaker 5>on Earth, so you can imagine the amount of water

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<v Speaker 5>it gets.

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<v Speaker 6>And so you know, fast forward. So engineers, obviously now.

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<v Speaker 5>They're thinking in the nineteen eighties, towards the end of

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<v Speaker 5>a party, the South African government and places like Johannesburg,

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<v Speaker 5>the industrial heartland of South Africa was growing at a

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<v Speaker 5>rapid speed and so they looked to list to which

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<v Speaker 5>at the time at very little else in terms of

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<v Speaker 5>natural resources.

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<v Speaker 6>So the two countries.

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<v Speaker 5>Stroke a deal in nineteen eighty six to basically turn

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<v Speaker 5>this geography into an economic partnership. And I think a

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<v Speaker 5>lot of people say, oh, but what's so unique about

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<v Speaker 5>this compared to other dams, other water sharing agreements on

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<v Speaker 5>the continent. Well, this one focuses on sharing money as

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<v Speaker 5>a commodity, so it monetizes.

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<v Speaker 6>Water, which makes it unusually commercial.

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<v Speaker 5>It's one of the few examples on the continent where

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<v Speaker 5>water is effectively treated as an export commodity.

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<v Speaker 2>That sort of speaks to what we heard on the ground,

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<v Speaker 2>which seemed to be that this new phase of the

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<v Speaker 2>agreement and of the project could potentially mean something different

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<v Speaker 2>for Lsuitu than years past. Did you get that same sense.

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<v Speaker 5>This treaty that's been signed in nineteen eighty six was

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<v Speaker 5>very much based on the economics of the eighties. What

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<v Speaker 5>I mean by that is, you know, at that time,

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<v Speaker 5>governments around the world thought of these kind of engineering

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<v Speaker 5>projects as an engineering solution and cost comparison.

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<v Speaker 6>So if we build.

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<v Speaker 5>It in Lacitu, South Africa arguit we'll share the savings.

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<v Speaker 5>So Lasuitu right now in twenty twenty six, they still

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<v Speaker 5>get a share.

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<v Speaker 6>Of South Africa's savings. But today, forty.

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<v Speaker 5>Years later, natural resources are usually priced based on scarcity.

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<v Speaker 5>You know, living in Johannesburg, we see how this is

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<v Speaker 5>the growing issue. So the more scarce were to become,

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<v Speaker 5>you should automatically earn more. I think that's an argument

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<v Speaker 5>that the National Resources Minister of LU told us, and

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<v Speaker 5>that's a big reason I think why last too, now

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<v Speaker 5>wants to revisit the deal which comes up for renewal.

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<v Speaker 5>The royalties agreement comes up for renegotiation, and part of

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<v Speaker 5>this treaty says that every twelve years there should be

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<v Speaker 5>some kind of discussion about what the core elements are

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<v Speaker 5>of this nineteen eighty six deal, which it seems like

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<v Speaker 5>the government of LSITU indicated that for the past decade

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<v Speaker 5>they haven't really come to an agreement of what this

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<v Speaker 5>new royalty payment should be.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks ap, let's bring in now the role that water

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<v Speaker 2>is playing in Pan African diplomacy. Joining me now is

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<v Speaker 2>Olivier Kojels. He's had a long career advising governments across

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<v Speaker 2>Asia and Africa on water issues and he's also Professor

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<v Speaker 2>Emerita at you see levent Olivia.

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<v Speaker 7>Thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe you can speak from your own perspective, how important

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<v Speaker 2>are agreements like what we saw with Lissutu and South

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<v Speaker 2>Africa going to be as more countries struggle with water shortages.

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<v Speaker 2>What has been your experience in some of these treands

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<v Speaker 2>boundary agreements.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the agreements are absolutely essential, but one thing must

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<v Speaker 1>be clear is that this specific case of risotto transfer

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<v Speaker 1>to South Africa is a very unique and very specific

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<v Speaker 1>because it's about selling water from one country to another,

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<v Speaker 1>and that is not at all the situation elsewhere in Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>So agreements are absolutely needed, that they are there already,

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<v Speaker 1>but they have to be inforced. But it's much more

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<v Speaker 1>complex than just one country selling water to another, although

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<v Speaker 1>I know it's already something very difficult in other African basins.

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<v Speaker 1>The situation is even much more complex than that. I've

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<v Speaker 1>been working in most of other African basins. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>after the Meccong, I have been a lot involved in

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<v Speaker 1>the Night Basin with the Grant Ethiopian Rensaissance Dam and

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<v Speaker 1>the issues there between Ethiopia and Egypt and so. But

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<v Speaker 1>I've been working the selling out basin, the nis Air Basin,

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<v Speaker 1>the many many other Zambasi whatever. There are so many.

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<v Speaker 1>There are sixty or more than sixty basins transboundary where

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<v Speaker 1>situation is extremely complex because sometimes you have a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of countries. The Nihle is eleven countries, the Niz nine countries,

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<v Speaker 1>the Vault has six. So countries are interconnected. They are

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<v Speaker 1>upstream and sometimes upstream and downstream or only downstream. It

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<v Speaker 1>is extremely complex and all the time very specific situations,

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<v Speaker 1>so we cannot transpose one agreement to another. It's not possible.

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<v Speaker 7>And stick with me, Olivia.

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<v Speaker 2>We're going to take a quick break and when we

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<v Speaker 2>come back, we'll hear more about some of the challenges

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<v Speaker 2>around water diplomacy across the continent.

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<v Speaker 7>We'll be right back, Welcome back. Today.

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<v Speaker 2>We are looking at the role water is playing in

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<v Speaker 2>Pan African diplomacy. We have Olivier Coajels still with me now, Olivia.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw with the JR. Dam, the Grand Ethiopian Renaissance

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<v Speaker 2>to them some of the complications that come with multiple

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<v Speaker 2>countries being along one certain water base. How do you

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<v Speaker 2>get to and address the confluence of issues that everyone

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<v Speaker 2>sort of brings to the table.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's a huge, enormous challenge and only very small,

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<v Speaker 1>limited basins have succeeded to do it very well. And

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<v Speaker 1>the most successful example is the sending out river basin.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the philosophy, and that's the approach that everybody

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<v Speaker 1>should have. It's saying heads of states come together and

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<v Speaker 1>they are aware that alone they cannot solve the water crisis,

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<v Speaker 1>they cannot fight against drought alone, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 1>And when they have this conviction. Then they sit down

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<v Speaker 1>and they say, okay, let's work together, and then they

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<v Speaker 1>co invest, they go, they borrow together, they invest, they

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<v Speaker 1>operate their dams together. They even shed sometimes the ownership

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<v Speaker 1>of the dams. But that is very rare most of

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<v Speaker 1>the time, and that is why it's not working. Cooperation

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<v Speaker 1>over water in trans boundary river basins, it's not working well.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very weak. Agreements are weak, institutions are poor, they

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<v Speaker 1>have no money, they have no staff. It's very because

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<v Speaker 1>there are many issues we can talk about.

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<v Speaker 7>It, yeah, please please.

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<v Speaker 1>The main thing is about sovereignty and this is why

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<v Speaker 1>it is so difficult. Of course, now the pressure is

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<v Speaker 1>so great on population growth is so enormous in Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>Just take that one as probably the main driver of everything.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just remind that when I was born in nineteen fifty,

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<v Speaker 1>there were two hundred and fifty million Africans two hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and fifty in Sub Saharan Africa, and I hope I

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<v Speaker 1>will die before twenty fifty and there will be two billion,

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<v Speaker 1>five hundred Africans. They have to share the same amount

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<v Speaker 1>of water, you can imagine. So that's why every country

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<v Speaker 1>we has a big pressure from insight to develop and

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<v Speaker 1>economically they are more powerful now and they have more

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<v Speaker 1>money so they can develop dams and borrow money from

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<v Speaker 1>even now Asian countries, China, whatever. The issue is that yes,

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<v Speaker 1>as we country wants to build the dams for their

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<v Speaker 1>own people. It's about national interest above all. And you

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<v Speaker 1>know about the sovereignty in issue in Africa now which

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<v Speaker 1>is growing everywhere. That is the main issue. Well, whatever

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<v Speaker 1>you are a rich country in terms of dams, in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of water, you may be in Aia with a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of water, or you Ethiopia with a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>water as compared to Egypt with has nothing. Whatever the

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<v Speaker 1>situation you want. The main reaction of every government for

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<v Speaker 1>electoral reasons is to have unilateral decisions and to promise

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<v Speaker 1>food self sufficiency and these kinds of things and electricity production,

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<v Speaker 1>hyperpower development. So infrastructure is booming and that is because, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>the demand is booming because population and economy, development and

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<v Speaker 1>urbanization and so on. Overcoming this sovereignty, the willingness of

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<v Speaker 1>developing national interest first is the main challenge and that's

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<v Speaker 1>why River basin organizations. There are so many agreements have

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<v Speaker 1>been signed, but very general, very very basic, like saying

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<v Speaker 1>we may not harm each other. Okay, but what does

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<v Speaker 1>it mean exactly? We have to have equitable use. Yes, okay,

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<v Speaker 1>we all signed that, but what is the quitable So

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<v Speaker 1>you see the issue is that the agreements are too

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<v Speaker 1>weak and a week because the political willingness to do

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<v Speaker 1>things together is not there. It's not there in most cases.

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<v Speaker 1>You have exceptions, but in most cases it is not

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<v Speaker 1>still there.

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<v Speaker 2>And I wonder if a model like what we are

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<v Speaker 2>seeing with the Sutuo in South Africa potentially then can

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<v Speaker 2>work for others. You know, you're mentioning sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>disparity between some of these resource rich countries like Lasutu

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<v Speaker 2>has plenty of water, South Africa is struggling with its

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<v Speaker 2>own water issues. Maybe they balance each other out in

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<v Speaker 2>terms of Lisuto is now able to leverage that resource

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<v Speaker 2>right in order to build up its own economy. So

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<v Speaker 2>it could be a win win situation, right or do

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<v Speaker 2>you think that ultimately they are going to be winners

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<v Speaker 2>and losers across the board.

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<v Speaker 1>It's much more complex. Then you cannot go generalized South Africa.

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<v Speaker 1>That's that's more like a resource you take, you put

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<v Speaker 1>in the pipe and you send to another country and

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<v Speaker 1>you sell it. It's never like this elsewhere elsewhere water

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<v Speaker 1>is flowing since millions of years through countries, and you

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<v Speaker 1>cannot sell water which is flowing. How can I would

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<v Speaker 1>say Boulkina Faso sell its water to Ghana. That doesn't

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<v Speaker 1>make sense. It flows, that's it. What happens is that

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<v Speaker 1>if Bokina is building tens and hundreds of small dams,

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<v Speaker 1>Ghana will suffer from having less water. And then you

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<v Speaker 1>have a yeah, you have need to negotiate or you

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<v Speaker 1>have a dispute. But it is not about okay, you

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<v Speaker 1>have a lot of water, you can sell it to me.

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<v Speaker 1>That doesn't work like this. It's about saying, okay, you

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<v Speaker 1>have two ways to go. Either we continue inilaterally and

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<v Speaker 1>then we try to mitigate the disputes and we continue

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<v Speaker 1>to fight but in a moderate way and do some

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<v Speaker 1>compromises afterwards. All we plan in advance, we do up

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<v Speaker 1>and that is my approach. That is my vision is

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<v Speaker 1>to do everything just upfront and not afterwards when things

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<v Speaker 1>are cooked. You know, when things are cooked, they are

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<v Speaker 1>not optimal. Dams are not always on the right place

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:41.200
<v Speaker 1>in the basin. Because we talk about the basin, which

0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.360
<v Speaker 1>is shared by five six seven, ten countries and we

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.040
<v Speaker 1>have to of course, water is scarce because population is growing,

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.920
<v Speaker 1>we have to optimize water use and optimizing water use,

0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:54.360
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't mean that every country has to build dumps

0:13:54.400 --> 0:14:00.240
<v Speaker 1>whenever wherever it wants. That doesn't make sense physically, economically, politically, etc.

0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.560
<v Speaker 1>So it is a big mess. I think it's funny.

0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I was listening to President Ramaposa here in South Africa

0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:08.520
<v Speaker 2>earlier this week and he was talking about the list

0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 2>To Dam project and speaking to exactly what you just said.

0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.040
<v Speaker 2>He said, how are they charging us for water? You know,

0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.880
<v Speaker 2>he was talking in jest, but sort of alluding to

0:14:17.920 --> 0:14:20.240
<v Speaker 2>what you were just saying there, Olivier, before we let

0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.840
<v Speaker 2>you go. I wonder what is at risk if we

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:28.600
<v Speaker 2>don't see this water diplomacy actually succeeding. You mentioned the

0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:33.600
<v Speaker 2>population growth, but with other natural resources, we've seen them

0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:36.600
<v Speaker 2>be a catalyst for conflict. Do you think that is

0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.840
<v Speaker 2>potentially where we're headed or is there potentially an opportunity

0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:44.240
<v Speaker 2>to get ahead of this before we get to that point.

0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:47.200
<v Speaker 1>If there is the political awareness, maybe with the help

0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:49.760
<v Speaker 1>of the African Union to say okay to heads of

0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:55.120
<v Speaker 1>states now stop, we cannot continue to work inilaterally and

0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 1>build our dams without communicating always limited communication to the neighbors.

0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 1>And we cannot just continue like this. Let's have it

0:15:01.760 --> 0:15:04.520
<v Speaker 1>at the highest political level. That's my way of seeing.

0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.680
<v Speaker 1>You need a declaration at heads of state level of

0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.440
<v Speaker 1>the African Union saying no, we need to coordinate. And

0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:14.440
<v Speaker 1>my word, my approach, my doctrine, I would say, I

0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 1>call it the doctrine of coordinated investment that is published

0:15:17.600 --> 0:15:21.720
<v Speaker 1>now is really don't talk about no harm and equitable use.

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.600
<v Speaker 1>You can do that, but in addition you have to

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 1>have the commitment of heads of states saying okay, now stop,

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.440
<v Speaker 1>we cannot go for disputes all over the places in

0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Africa about water. That doesn't make sense, It is not

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.160
<v Speaker 1>worth it. Let's discuss really with a vision for the

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:44.720
<v Speaker 1>future and have the declaration saying, whatever big dams we build,

0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.440
<v Speaker 1>we do it in a coordinated way, not only the

0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:51.160
<v Speaker 1>planning but also financing and certainly operation. Because you have

0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.200
<v Speaker 1>cascades of dams and you have to even in the

0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:56.480
<v Speaker 1>Nile GRD is not the only one. You have a

0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 1>cascade of dams just to us one. You have to

0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 1>to manage the jointly. The dams may be there, but

0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:06.360
<v Speaker 1>at least you have also to operate the water releases

0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 1>attat the right time and all these things have to

0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:12.400
<v Speaker 1>be done. So the keyword is coordination, and my doctrine

0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:18.560
<v Speaker 1>calls doctrine of coordinated investment upfront and not when the

0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:19.480
<v Speaker 1>things are cooked.

0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.240
<v Speaker 2>And thanks again so much to Olivia Cojails and also

0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Andre Pierre do play C for joining us this week.

0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.480
<v Speaker 2>You can read more of our reporting from Lasutu on

0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg platforms. Now here's some of the other stories we've

0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:38.120
<v Speaker 2>been following across the region this week. With fuel prices

0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:41.960
<v Speaker 2>surging as much as eighty one percent, African governments are

0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:46.320
<v Speaker 2>rolling out subsidies and cutting taxes to help cushion households

0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.720
<v Speaker 2>from an increase in energy costs triggered by the US

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:55.720
<v Speaker 2>Israeli War on a run and Mozambique repaid about seven

0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.560
<v Speaker 2>hundred million dollars to the International Monetary Fund ahead of

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:04.080
<v Speaker 2>schedule and in full, a surprise move that raised questions

0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:07.439
<v Speaker 2>about its motivations and the status of talks over a

0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.680
<v Speaker 2>potential new program with the lender. And you can follow

0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.480
<v Speaker 2>these stories across Bloomberg, including the Next African Newsletter. Will

0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:18.160
<v Speaker 2>put a link to that in the show notes. This

0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:22.000
<v Speaker 2>program was produced by Adrian Bradley and tiwa Adebayo. Don't

0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.960
<v Speaker 2>forget to follow and review the show wherever you usually

0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:28.199
<v Speaker 2>get your podcasts, But for now I'm Jennifer Zabastaja.

0:17:28.320 --> 0:17:29.720
<v Speaker 7>Thanks, as always for listening.