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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Paul, Hey Kate, how are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Did I have this sexy, raspy thing going? I think

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Speaker 2: maybe I sound normal to you.

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Speaker 1: But I don't feel normal.

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Speaker 2: I just got over the flu, which was a terrible experience.

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Speaker 2: I've managed to avoid COVIDEH, which is incredible for me,

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Speaker 2: but I have never had the flu. Really, it was

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Speaker 2: no good. It just knocked me out. And I've at

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Speaker 2: least took tama flu and that really helped. But have

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Speaker 2: you had the flu? Did you have it as a kid?

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Speaker 2: Because I don't think I ever had it.

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Speaker 3: I rarely get sick, but I would say that I've

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Speaker 3: had the flu at least twice, and it was miserable.

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Speaker 3: I remember that for sure. You know, I was bedridden

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Speaker 3: for several days, nauseous, you know, the headachey, body aches, feverish.

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Speaker 3: You know, I really was sick, for sure. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the flu's no joke. But how are you feeling now?

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Speaker 2: I feel so much better, And I'm excited to get

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Speaker 2: into the story because this case is in your neck

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Speaker 2: of the woods, but also in my neck of the woods.

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Speaker 2: I lived in San Francisco for several years, and this

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Speaker 2: takes place in Oakland and a little bit in Berkeley, California.

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Speaker 2: It's a tragedy all around, but the person who did

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Speaker 2: it is a bit of a mystery. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to be interested in seeing how you help me untangle this.

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Speaker 4: Well, why don't you let me know a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's set the scene.

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Speaker 2: It's nineteen twenty seven, and this is, as I said, Oakland, California.

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Speaker 2: And I've said this many times. This time period is

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Speaker 2: a great time period for me. This is officially the

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Speaker 2: Roaring twenties. Flapper women, a lot of money floating around that. Really,

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Speaker 2: people were spending money that they didn't have, couldn't afford.

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Speaker 2: All kinds of wacky inventions were popping up and being

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Speaker 2: funded when they had absolutely no business being funded. And

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Speaker 2: we have a teenager named Mabel Mayer who was fifteen

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Speaker 2: years old. She was living in oak in California with

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Speaker 2: her family, and when people were asked to describe her,

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Speaker 2: she was called Sunshine Mabel because.

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Speaker 1: She was just a joy to be around.

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Speaker 2: She was described as pretty and innocent and a very

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Speaker 2: happy girl, someone who was really popular with her friends.

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Speaker 1: She didn't it sound like have an enemy in the world.

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Speaker 2: And she was very happy with her parents and her brother,

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Speaker 2: very tight knit family in Oakland, California.

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Speaker 3: And do you know whereabouts in Oakland she was living.

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Speaker 3: Was she up in the hills or down east side,

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Speaker 3: west side, et cetera. I mean, that just gives me

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Speaker 3: a sense in terms of the area where she's growing up.

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Speaker 2: Two thousand and eight eighty sixth Avenue. Now remember this

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Speaker 2: is nineteen twenty seven, so it would have been a

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Speaker 2: different demographic.

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Speaker 1: This looks like a nice neighborhood to me.

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Speaker 3: This is probably middle of the road, I imagine back

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Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty seven, Oakland.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, And I'll show you some photos in a second,

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Speaker 2: got it that might be able to give you a

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Speaker 2: little bit of perspective on the type of houses we're

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Speaker 2: talking about. The story is very long and twisty in

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Speaker 2: a way, but we like those. So this is July

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Speaker 2: second warm Day, nineteen twenty seven, and Mabel has a

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Speaker 2: very busy social schedule.

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Speaker 1: This is what we know.

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Speaker 2: So it's a Saturday, she's off of school. It's at

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Speaker 2: ten am, she went to the dentist. At eleven thirty,

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Speaker 2: she went to a music lesson, she ate lunch at

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Speaker 2: a restaurant with a family member, and at four point

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Speaker 2: thirty you have a couple of people who are friends

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Speaker 2: of hers that say that she was shopping on a

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Speaker 2: busy street in Oakland where she lived. What we don't

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Speaker 2: really know is what happened between four thirty pm and

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Speaker 2: six pm, which might not be important at all, because

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Speaker 2: we have someone who knows where she was a family

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Speaker 2: member from six pm until nine thirty at night. There's

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Speaker 2: a random ninety minutes that is unaccounted for. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think it's going to impact this case, but it's

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Speaker 2: just something to keep in mind.

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Speaker 1: So she's fifteen.

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Speaker 2: She decides she wants to go have dinner at her

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Speaker 2: uncle's house, which is in Berkeley, which she's about a

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Speaker 2: five mile away, and there are commuter trains running back

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Speaker 2: and forth, so she can just hop on a train.

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Speaker 2: She's an urban kid. She can hop on a train

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Speaker 2: and go. So she goes to her uncle's house. She's

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Speaker 2: very close to the family. She dines with him and

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Speaker 2: his friends there. The uncle is not considered a suspect.

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Speaker 2: He is just the last person, aside from a couple

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Speaker 2: of other people, but the last close person to spend

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Speaker 2: any time with her. Around eight o'clock, her brother William

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Speaker 2: calls the uncle's house. So this is nineteen twenty seven,

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Speaker 2: and they have a phone, which would have been I

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Speaker 2: wouldn't say unusual, but the uncle definitely had more money

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Speaker 2: than maybe some of the other people in Berkeley did.

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Speaker 2: He calls the home and checks in, and they decide

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Speaker 2: that once Mabel was done at the uncle's house that

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Speaker 2: he would meet her at the commuter train station near

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Speaker 2: their house in Oakland. So around ten o'clock, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe an hour before that, she was going to catch

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Speaker 2: a commuter train, and then she was going to to

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Speaker 2: go the five miles or whatever it was from Berkeley

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Speaker 2: over to Oakland, and he was very prudent he wanted

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Speaker 2: to meet her there. This would have been not light,

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Speaker 2: but you know, at ten o'clock at night, it would

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Speaker 2: have been a situation where her brother wanted to walk

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Speaker 2: her home, even though the commuter train was not very far.

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Speaker 2: The brother had planned to walk her to the short

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Speaker 2: distance home. Mabel's father thought this was a great plan

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Speaker 2: and told William go ahead and go a little bit

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Speaker 2: early to make sure that you get there and she's

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Speaker 2: not standing there at this commuter station by herself, even

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Speaker 2: though this wasn't considered an unsafe neighborhood. So William waits

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Speaker 2: ten o'clock at night, every single person got off of

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Speaker 2: the train that he was assuming she was on.

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Speaker 1: But no Mabel.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: He went home and updated the father. Not panicked because

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Speaker 2: the uncle and the family don't live very far apart,

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Speaker 2: and she would spend the night sometimes, they weren't panicked,

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Speaker 2: but he just wanted to say, this is why I'm

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Speaker 2: not coming home with Mabel.

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Speaker 3: Did the uncle take Mabel to two who the commuter

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Speaker 3: train and see her get on the train.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And what's interesting is they don't immediately call the uncle.

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Speaker 2: I think they want to give her a little bit

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Speaker 2: of space and they're not panicking immediately. But that was

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Speaker 2: the plan was the uncle was going to take her

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Speaker 2: to the train station. So William goes home, tells the father.

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Speaker 2: The father says, she probably got on the ten twenty.

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Speaker 2: Go back to the train station eleven fifteen or so

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Speaker 2: to see if she's there.

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Speaker 1: He goes to the train station. She doesn't show up.

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Speaker 2: They figure that Mabel must have changed her mind and

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Speaker 2: stayed the night at the uncle's house instead of deciding

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Speaker 2: to come home. And they don't call the uncle. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if they don't want to bug people, they

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Speaker 2: don't call the police. They just said, well, this must

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Speaker 2: have happened previously where she just decided to spend the night.

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Speaker 2: They just decide to let it lay and they'll talk

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Speaker 2: in the morning. What do you think about that?

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Speaker 3: It does come back down to what is her routine?

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Speaker 3: You said, she's very much an urban girl. She's doing

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Speaker 3: a lot of independent things. Even that day, you know,

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Speaker 3: she's out shopping by herself in a busy area in Oakland.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: Part of what I would want to know is how

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Speaker 3: frequently is she riding these commuter trains? Is she very

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Speaker 3: very familiar or is this like the first time she

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Speaker 3: did this?

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Speaker 1: No, very familiar, very familiar.

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Speaker 3: So she's not necessarily getting off at the wrong stop.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like the family, you know, I know in

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Speaker 4: this day and age.

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Speaker 3: You know, I've got four kids, I've got my youngest

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Speaker 3: is a fifteen year old girl. And you know, the

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Speaker 3: thought of putting my fifteen year old girl on a

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Speaker 3: commuter trade by herself, all right, Instantly I start to

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Speaker 3: panic about that thought, right, just because I know, you know,

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Speaker 3: what could potentially happen. But in nineteen twenty seven, I

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Speaker 3: think they're a lot looser. They didn't get the concentrated

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Speaker 3: exposure to let's say, the predators that are out there, right,

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Speaker 3: So this is probably part for course, and I can

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Speaker 3: see where they go. Oh, okay, you know, she's independent

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Speaker 3: and she's making her own decisions, and we'll check in

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Speaker 3: with her tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Yep, that's exactly right, that's exactly what they thought. So

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Speaker 2: Mabel doesn't come home the next morning, they call the

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Speaker 2: uncle and the uncle says, she didn't spend the night

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Speaker 2: with me. I took her to the train station to

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Speaker 2: catch the nine o'clock train that she initially was supposed

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Speaker 2: to catch, and we missed the train, so she did

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Speaker 2: not get the commuter train, which was not a big

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Speaker 2: deal because she did something that she does quite often. Apparently,

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Speaker 2: she decided to hop on a streetcar and go home

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Speaker 2: that way. So now we're talking about a different mode

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Speaker 2: of transportation. They've been expecting to go to one station.

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Speaker 2: Now they're scrambling to figure out what happened to her.

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Speaker 2: If she got on this streetcar.

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Speaker 3: In this streetcar, this must be like the San Francisco

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Speaker 3: trolley system.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it would be the streetcars that you

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Speaker 2: would ride that are now antiques that you could ride

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Speaker 2: that one street car in San Francisco. They would have

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Speaker 2: been all over Northern California at this point, well atleast

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Speaker 2: these major cities. So instead of waiting for the next

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Speaker 2: train because she missed that nine ozho five train, she

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Speaker 2: hopped on a different train. She's so familiar with the

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Speaker 2: streetcar line and doing this on her own late at

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Speaker 2: night that at nine to twenty five she transferred from

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Speaker 2: one streetcar li line to another that ran closer to

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Speaker 2: her house.

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Speaker 4: How do we know that is the uncle saying that no.

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Speaker 2: Several streetcar operators and also customers saw her get off,

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Speaker 2: and then she's gone.

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Speaker 1: They don't know where she is. The uncle's cleared. She's

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Speaker 1: been on a streetcar.

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Speaker 2: And the last time anyone has seen her is at

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Speaker 2: nine point thirty when she stepped off that street car

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Speaker 2: just a few blocks from her house.

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Speaker 3: Okay, she's making it close. She's making it close down

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Speaker 3: to our house. Now she has to walk the four blocks,

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Speaker 3: I imagine.

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Speaker 2: Yes, And let's keep in mind that this was a

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Speaker 2: last minute decision. This is not most likely some boys

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Speaker 2: stalking her from school or somebody who knew her schedule.

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Speaker 2: This is unplanned, so she's going in a different direction.

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Speaker 2: Her schedule is not predictable tonight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and that is a very important point in terms

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Speaker 3: of somebody lying in wait for her at this location

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Speaker 3: where she gets off four blocks away from her house.

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Speaker 3: So that is off the table now, the way that

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Speaker 3: you described her in her family life, she is not

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Speaker 3: known to be a runaway. She doesn't have any instances

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Speaker 3: in the past of running away, No, nothing to indicate

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Speaker 3: to that. So at this point, then who else is

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Speaker 3: in her social circles? Does she have a boyfriend, you know,

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Speaker 3: maybe sneak out. You know, she has an opportunity to

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Speaker 3: go see somebody that maybe her father doesn't want her to.

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Speaker 2: Well, all those possibilities are up in the air, because

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Speaker 2: I will say, what happens in the nineteen twenties, girls

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Speaker 2: are framed in these sort of adjectives that I've just

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Speaker 2: mentioned to you. Pretty innocent, happy girl, popular with her friends, content, sunshine, mabel.

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Speaker 2: So this is framed as a you know, almost like

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Speaker 2: a virgin, this incredible, perfect young girl, which you know,

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Speaker 2: under normal circumstances, has a lot to put on someone.

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Speaker 2: But my point is from the newspapers and from the research,

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Speaker 2: we don't really know sure, because I don't know if

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Speaker 2: these are questions that investigators would have asked of the

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Speaker 2: family of a girl who has gone missing. I know

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Speaker 2: what we know, which is that no, there are no

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Speaker 2: problems in the family whatsoever.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you know, from my perspective, what I'm hearing is

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Speaker 3: is that she's likely not voluntarily not making a home right, Okay,

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Speaker 3: So now somebody is crossing pass with her in those

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Speaker 3: four blocks, yeah, and prevents her from getting home.

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Speaker 2: So this is where the part of the story that's

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Speaker 2: hard for me to recount, because now the family gets

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Speaker 2: really terrible news. Four blocks from her house, fifteen year

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Speaker 2: old Mabel's body is discovered. The next morning. They have

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Speaker 2: alerted police, They've talked to where is our daughter?

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Speaker 1: We don't know where she is.

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Speaker 2: The uncle says, last time I saw her she was

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Speaker 2: getting on a street car. And the next morning she

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Speaker 2: has found just four blocks from her family's house. So

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Speaker 2: she was discovered by two carpenters who were building a

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Speaker 2: garage onto an existing vacant house.

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Speaker 1: In her neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: When they walked around the backside of the property, they

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Speaker 2: reportedly almost tripped over her body. She wasn't buried, she

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Speaker 2: was dumped there.

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Speaker 1: The police say.

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Speaker 2: The conditions for the crime were this is a terrible

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Speaker 2: word to use, but perfect. There was no light, there

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Speaker 2: was a vacant house there. There was a hidden backyard

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Speaker 2: that you would see, not right off of the street,

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Speaker 2: so there was seclusion. There were no other people on

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Speaker 2: the street, no one peering from windows. There was a neighbor,

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Speaker 2: but kind of far away. So this was a place

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Speaker 2: where somebody could take her.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: So now, of course, okay, we have her body being

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Speaker 3: found at this location. You know, my immediate question is

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Speaker 3: is this the scene of a homicide or is this

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Speaker 3: a disposal site.

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Speaker 1: Well, let me.

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Speaker 2: Read you some of the details just to start out with,

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Speaker 2: this is not a sexual assault, and the wounds are interesting,

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Speaker 2: and this is where profiling might come in for you.

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Speaker 2: I'm assuming Mabel's body is found twisted and crumpled, just

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Speaker 2: dumped on a flowerbed. She was found lying on her

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Speaker 2: back with her legs spread apart, and her clothes were

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Speaker 2: pulled up over her waist, exposing her legs. But the

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Speaker 2: police don't think this was posing, and later it's determined

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a sexual assault. They think she was dragged

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Speaker 2: to this spot, so they think that the murder happened

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Speaker 2: in one place. And I'll tell you why they think that.

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Speaker 2: And then she was dragged and sort of dumped into

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Speaker 2: this flower bed. She was wearing a blue coat, a

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Speaker 2: red dress, and a straw hat. There were drag marks

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Speaker 2: on her. I think that's why they assumed it was dragged.

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Speaker 2: But they really felt strongly that this was not a

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Speaker 2: posed thing. I don't know if a killer posing a

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00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 2: victim was something very commonplace. I had not read about

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Speaker 2: it very much in the eighteen hundreds in the early

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Speaker 2: nineteen hundreds.

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Speaker 4: So what is her cause of death?

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Speaker 2: So she had a broken arm that was still raised

300
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Speaker 2: in rigor as though it was warding off merciless blows,

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Speaker 2: is what the newspaper dramatically wrote. Her face was described

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Speaker 2: as so so lacerated and battered that it was unrecognizable,

303
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Speaker 2: and they identified her by looking through the contents of

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Speaker 2: her little green purse which was lying nearby. It was

305
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Speaker 2: a very bloody scene. There were bloody prints on the

306
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Speaker 2: green purse, footprints on the ground, There was blood splashed

307
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Speaker 2: onto a nearby fence, lots of trauma.

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Speaker 1: This is what I thought was really strange. So there

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Speaker 1: was no sign.

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Speaker 2: Of sexual assault or rape before or after Mabel was killed,

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Speaker 2: no damage to the genitalia anything like that. In fact,

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Speaker 2: there were no marks below her throat. So what they

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Speaker 2: were saying is that the drag marks from dragging her

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Speaker 2: and putting her in the flower bed. But whoever did

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Speaker 2: this didn't damage her below her throat. The blows were aimed,

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Speaker 2: according to the coroner, at her mouth. She didn't have

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Speaker 2: any skull fractures, which he thought was amazing, but that

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Speaker 2: her death was caused by concussion shock and hemorrhaging. He said,

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Speaker 2: all the blows seemed to be centered on her mouth,

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Speaker 2: if that was to stop her from screaming, and that's

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Speaker 2: why there weren't injuries other places.

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Speaker 4: Well, is there a weapon being used or are these blows?

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Speaker 4: Are you know? Is she being beat with fists? So

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Speaker 4: is she being stomped on?

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Speaker 2: There was a board that they believed was used, a

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Speaker 2: two by four that was found at the scene, not

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00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,960
Speaker 2: brought there. It was part of the construction stuff that

328
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,640
Speaker 2: was there because remember there's a renovation happening in addition

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Speaker 2: being built. This is what the investigators say they think happened. First,

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Speaker 2: the board was probably swung, so remember they call people

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Speaker 2: fiends instead of you know, offenders while the fiend I

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Speaker 2: think you should start using that language fiend. First, the

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Speaker 2: board was probably swung while the fiend was in a

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Speaker 2: standing position from right to left, causing a few lacerations

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Speaker 2: and several contusions on the left side of the victim's face.

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Speaker 2: And later either end of the two by four was

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Speaker 2: used by grasping this two by four in the middle

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Speaker 2: with both hands and striking the face within a radius

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Speaker 2: of four inches, taking the nose or mouth as the

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Speaker 2: center and disfiguring and lacerating the mouth and the nose,

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Speaker 2: lower part of the frontal bone and chin, breaking the

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Speaker 2: bridge of the nose, fracturing both upper and lower jaws

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Speaker 2: in a number of places, lacerating the features, and knocking

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Speaker 2: out nearly every tooth in her mouth.

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Speaker 1: Violent.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So in essence, she's being bludgeoned with this two

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Speaker 3: by four, and this is very typical. These are the

348
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Speaker 3: typical injuries that you see with bludgeonings with a weapon

349
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Speaker 3: such as this.

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Speaker 4: This is normal.

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Speaker 3: I hate to use that word in the setting, but

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Speaker 3: from my perspective, you have an offender that is inflicting

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Speaker 3: violence focused on her face.

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Speaker 4: They used a weird phrase.

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Speaker 3: But her arm was raised in rigor, as if still

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Speaker 3: trying to fend off the blows. Now, does she actually

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Speaker 3: have defensive injuries? Are her forearms bruised?

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Speaker 1: Nope? They said, no injuries below her throat essentially.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

360
00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:03,719
Speaker 3: And do you have any information as to what the

361
00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 3: pathologist found when he dissected her neck?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

363
00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,439
Speaker 1: No, what would you expect for that to be?

364
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Speaker 3: So what I'm trying to discern is you know, of course,

365
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Speaker 3: how thorough the pathologist was in terms of conducting the examination.

366
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Speaker 3: Is this a situation to where she strangled at a

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Speaker 3: different location. She's now her body's placed here and the

368
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,479
Speaker 3: offender is now bludgeoning her. In essence, part of this

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Speaker 3: is to ensure she's dead. Another part of this is

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00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,760
Speaker 3: these offenders are still getting out that anger retaliation type

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Speaker 3: of violence on this helpless victim. When you talked about

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Speaker 3: this scene and you said this was a disposal scene,

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Speaker 3: or they had said she was killed somewhere else, but

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Speaker 3: then you said there had been blood splashed on a wall.

375
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Speaker 2: Well, what they believed was that she was killed in

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Speaker 2: this back area, okay, and then dragged and dumped.

377
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Speaker 1: It could have been one foot away. This might clarify

378
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Speaker 1: things for you.

379
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,840
Speaker 2: Let me show you this scene with these bloody fingerprints,

380
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 2: so this will give you a good idea of what

381
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,959
Speaker 2: we're looking at. Let me start at the top and

382
00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 2: we'll take a little tour of this. So this is

383
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,679
Speaker 2: the house, the abandoned house in the back. You can

384
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 2: kind of see the investigator standing here, and I have

385
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,680
Speaker 2: plenty of angles of this, but.

386
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Speaker 1: You see the street. We are on the street.

387
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,400
Speaker 2: You can see the driveway and it's one of those

388
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,800
Speaker 2: driveways that has you know, only the concrete where the

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00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: tires would go.

390
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:28,720
Speaker 1: Only how do you describe that?

391
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 3: That's perfect? You know, it's basically two parallel pores. You know,

392
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 3: it looks like two sidewalks side by side, but it's

393
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,480
Speaker 3: it's for a car to be able to drive back there.

394
00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,200
Speaker 3: And I think you know they did that style in essence,

395
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 3: it's less concrete, it's cheaper than if you're doing a

396
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 3: full poor But I see this done frequently out there

397
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 3: in the Bay Area, in the older neighborhoods.

398
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 2: Well, this is the house that's you know, an abandoned house,

399
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 2: and then these are you know, a police officer and

400
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,880
Speaker 2: investigator where Mabel's bodies film. I have more photos though,

401
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: if this doesn't give you a good reference.

402
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 1: But what do you see so far? There's a lot

403
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 1: of brush.

404
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 3: Well, the offender here, you have the victim, she has

405
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,480
Speaker 3: you know, a relatively short walk home.

406
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 4: The offenders in the area.

407
00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 3: This is a victim of opportunity, okay, And whether he's

408
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 3: in a vehicle he's happens to be walking and crosses

409
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 3: paths with the victim, or he's a resident. You know,

410
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 3: I think that's going to be something I'll touch upon

411
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 3: a little bit. But the offender has pulled her off

412
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,200
Speaker 3: of the road and has committed this crime in an

413
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: area where it is hidden from witnesses. So part of

414
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,680
Speaker 3: what I'm trying to assess when I look at these

415
00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 3: locations is, Okay, does this suggest that the offender had

416
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:53,760
Speaker 3: prior knowledge of this location? As you mentioned, it was

417
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 3: like the perfect location. It's a vacant house where her

418
00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 3: body was located is tucked back, you know, and it's

419
00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 3: not until construction workers come the next day and find

420
00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,359
Speaker 3: her body, so he would have been able to spend

421
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:06,960
Speaker 3: some time with Mabel.

422
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 4: Tell me more.

423
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,399
Speaker 2: Okay, let's look at the scene down here. So this

424
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,879
Speaker 2: is the back door shot. You can see lots of weeds.

425
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 2: I now understand why the construction workers didn't see her

426
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: because she's hidden within these weeds in this garden.

427
00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: And now you can see all the gawkers.

428
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 2: This is a photo of just the huge amount of

429
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: people that have come, including a kid, to come and

430
00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 2: look at the crime scene.

431
00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:30,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is very typical.

432
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 2: Every time someone says to me this resurgence of crime,

433
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 2: of true crime, everybody all of a sudden loves true crime.

434
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: Now everybody, everybody's been interested in death and murder and

435
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 2: crime for centuries and centuries.

436
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: So you see, there are a lot of gawkers here.

437
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 2: But I just wanted to give you a different perspective

438
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 2: and then I'll show you the bloody handprints in a minute.

439
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,199
Speaker 3: Okay, you know, in essence, now you've got a small house.

440
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 3: You've got a backyard that is really just full of

441
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 3: weeds that are about a knee height for the adult

442
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,160
Speaker 3: men that are standing in the middle of those weeds.

443
00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 3: The killer knew about this location or stumbled across it

444
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 3: as he's having to get Mabel back there. You know

445
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 3: that that's part of the dynamics of this is how

446
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 3: is he getting Mabel into this back location? Is she

447
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 3: walking with him? Is he dragging her and she's fighting him?

448
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 3: Is she unconscious and he's pulling her back there? This

449
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: is where you know, I need to assess her injuries

450
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 3: and the crime scene and the blood that's present at

451
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 3: this crime scene in order to start teasing apart. You know,

452
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 3: these final moments between the offender and the victim, and

453
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 3: that will help give me insight as to what the

454
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 3: offender's actual motive is because I will tell you I

455
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 3: do not trust law enforcement assessment that this was not

456
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,040
Speaker 3: a sexually motivated crime, right, you know, So let's let's

457
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 3: hear more.

458
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: Okay.

459
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 2: And one of the other things that I had just

460
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: thought about when when you were talking about this is

461
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 2: the injuries where they're not reporting bruises, nothing, defensive wounds,

462
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: anything except what's happening on her face. I wonder if

463
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 2: that means that this is someone she knows from the

464
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: neighborhood and he drew her back somewhere, because wouldn't if

465
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: you snatch someone and force them back. He doesn't have

466
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 2: a weapon, right, He doesn't use a gun. He's using

467
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 2: something that he found on the ground. Maybe she knows

468
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: him and that's from the neighborhood, and that's how he

469
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: knows this. He draws her back somehow for just a second,

470
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: and then he immobilizes her with the two by four.

471
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 4: It's entirely possible this type of crime.

472
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 3: This is very much akin to what I would call

473
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 3: this trapdoor offender. Here, you have a victim of opportunity.

474
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: You know, this is not like a routine walking path

475
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 3: of hers at this time of night every night, where

476
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 3: somebody who's watching out their window knows.

477
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,240
Speaker 1: About right, she's not coming home from school, or anything.

478
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 3: Right, So this now is an opportunity in which the

479
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: offender is taking advantage of. Now, is he emerging out

480
00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 3: of a residence when he sees her walking alone.

481
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: Or is he walking in the neighborhood.

482
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 3: I can't discern that right now, but I want to

483
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 3: know more about how he is committing this abduction and

484
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,800
Speaker 3: this homicide. So show me the photos of the blood

485
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 3: patterns or you said bloody fingerprints.

486
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

487
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: So this is a shot on the side of the house. Now,

488
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 2: this is the part that's really hard for me. They

489
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: know relatively where she was because there was blood everywhere

490
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 2: she went. There were handprints on the back of the

491
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 2: door of this abandoned or this vacant house, so they

492
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,640
Speaker 2: know that she escaped at some point, they think, and

493
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 2: tried to get inside the house, but it was a

494
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 2: vacant house. And so this is a handprint on the house.

495
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 2: This is blood on a nearby.

496
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 4: Fence, Okay, And this handprint is on it looks.

497
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 1: Like the siding, yeah right, And there's one on the

498
00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: fence too.

499
00:24:59,359 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

500
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 1: I mean there's stuff.

501
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 4: Everywhere and her hands are bloody.

502
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 3: The original investigators are saying this is likely her hands

503
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 3: versus the killers.

504
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: Ran I'm assuming grabbing her head because he's beating her.

505
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: For her to not have.

506
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 2: Defensive wounds with a two by four, he must have

507
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: stunned her and then she came to and tried to run,

508
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: and then he hit her again, and that had to

509
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 2: have been the end of it. But she didn't have

510
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 2: a crush skull, which I thought was interesting.

511
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, he most certainly could have stunned her

512
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 3: with a blow, or with the state of pathology back

513
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 3: in nineteen twenty seven, I would be suspicious that the

514
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 3: pathologists may have overlooked that. I mean, she could have

515
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 3: been asphyxiated, she could have been strangled and rendered unconscious,

516
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 3: maybe not killed that way. So there's other modalities that

517
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: the offender could have used on her in order to

518
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 3: overpower her get her under control. The lack of defensive

519
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: injuries is very telling, especially in a bludgeting. If she's

520
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 3: aware she's being bludgeoned, So that would suggest that if

521
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 3: it's solely a bludgeoning, that in all likelihood, the first

522
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: blow she didn't see coming, and she's rendered unconscious or

523
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 3: not aware because of being stunned by that blow, and

524
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 3: then the subsequent blow has ultimately caused the internal hemorrhaging

525
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 3: which led to her death.

526
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: Now, the blood pattern.

527
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 3: On the fence, and if you could just scroll down

528
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 3: so I can describe this to the listeners. You have

529
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 3: a fence and I would say roughly about twelve inches

530
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: above the ground is a very large splash and surprisingly

531
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 3: uniform in terms of it's not a spatter pattern.

532
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 4: But when I stump into a.

533
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 3: Pool of water and how that water spatters and then

534
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,920
Speaker 3: you have droplets that fly out. That's what happens when

535
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: blows occur in blood pools and you get blood spattering.

536
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 4: What I am seeing is more in line with.

537
00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 3: A contact transfer an item and object that has a

538
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: heavy coating of blood on it that has been pressed

539
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: up against this fence. Unfortunately, the wood pattern doesn't allow

540
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,959
Speaker 3: for a replication of what that item is.

541
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 4: This could be from her head.

542
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought.

543
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 3: And that she's been pressed up against this fence, and

544
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,360
Speaker 3: you can see it's a heavy enough blood transferred where

545
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 3: now you have these rivulettes of blood that are flowing

546
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 3: down after the object has pressed up against the fence. Now,

547
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: there does appear to possibly be some droplets on the

548
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 3: right hand side of this very large blood pattern that

549
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 3: possibly could be spattered, but because it's black and white

550
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,159
Speaker 3: and not very close, it's hard for me to be

551
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 3: able to determine that. But there most certainly could have

552
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 3: been a struggle, and with that struggle, I would expect

553
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 3: that Mabel would have had some type of injury to

554
00:27:54,840 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: her hands, to her arms, to her Torso.

555
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 2: Well, we know for sure there was a lot of

556
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 2: blood loss, and she had to have been stunned by

557
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 2: some of these blows, which just looks like an absolutely

558
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 2: terrible way for anybody to die.

559
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: So they find the murder weapon. It's there.

560
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: It was a piece of lumber that the carpenter said, yeah,

561
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 2: we used the killer tossed it had her blood all

562
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: over it. They tried to pull fingerprints and they couldn't.

563
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: Is that the case today?

564
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: Well, you're dealing with a piece of two by four.

565
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: It's wood, right, you know. So wood is typically fairly textured,

566
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 3: you know, especially construction grade two by four, And the

567
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 3: more textured a surface is, the poor it becomes to

568
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 3: record fingerprints or latent prints.

569
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 4: Okay, Now, wood is porous.

570
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: So in terms of processing it the types of processing

571
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 3: for fingerprints, the examiner, the latent print examiner would need

572
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 3: to take into account that aspect of this surface is

573
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: that there is it's porous.

574
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 4: So the residues that are.

575
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: Left when you touch a surface that would leave your

576
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 3: fingerprints behind get absorbed into this porous material. And typically

577
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: something like porous wood or paper, it's not processed with

578
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 3: black powder. Expecting that that residue, that fingerprint residue, is

579
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: just on the surface. You need a wet chemistry that

580
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: will be absorbed itself into that porous material and actually

581
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 3: turn a color. And so commonly used today, like for paper,

582
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: is an anhydrant. You know, it's that's a chemical that

583
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 3: reacts with the proteins within this fingerprint residue and actually

584
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 3: turns a kind of a purplish color. And so I'd

585
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 3: be wondering, Okay, did they process it with that type

586
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: of chemistry or did they just powder this wood and go,

587
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 3: don't don't get anything and that's it.

588
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: Well, they worked very hard to pull prints.

589
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: They weren't able to get anything off of that piece

590
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: of wood, but they were able to pull a print

591
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 2: from her purse, which was not her print. It was

592
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,719
Speaker 2: we presume of the killer. It might not also have

593
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 2: been the killer. So they had this one print that

594
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: they were able to pull, and when they start gathering suspects,

595
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: they use this print as a way to include or

596
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: exclude people. So that still would be valid today if

597
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 2: it's a good print.

598
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: No.

599
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you said it was off her purse, and

600
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 3: so right, was there anything taken out of her person?

601
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 4: She carry a lot of money or anything like that.

602
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 2: Okay, nothing, and her idea was in there, so they

603
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: knew who it was. Remember, I said, the injuries were

604
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: so extensive on her face that it was hard to

605
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: identify her, but they were able to identify her based

606
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: on what was inside her purse.

607
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 3: So he didn't take anything, Okay. So now they're rounding

608
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: up suspects. They're comparing suspects to this bloody print to

609
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: see who matches.

610
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 1: Yep.

611
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: And there are neighbors to the vacant house, not very many.

612
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,600
Speaker 2: Someone said they thought they heard her girl's scream around

613
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: ten pm. Now time of death. Mabel was wearing a

614
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: watch and just like out of a Lifetime movie, the

615
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: watch stopped at nine point fifty five PM, which is

616
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 2: what we presume would be her time of death.

617
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: It had been broken in the struggle.

618
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: And based on the train the commuter train that she

619
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 3: got off of right about nine thirty.

620
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 4: At nine thirty, so twenty five minutes.

621
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: Yep.

622
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: Now it doesn't take twenty five minutes to walk four.

623
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,160
Speaker 1: Blocks, right, So he snatched her pretty.

624
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: Quickly in spending some time with her, you know, Like

625
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 2: I said, no signs of sexual assault. Vaginal swabs was

626
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: pretty commonplace actually in America in the nineteen twenties, so

627
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 2: they would have been able to recognize whether she had

628
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: been sexually assaulted if there was spur, right, I think

629
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: the theory, well, there was no trauma at all.

630
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: Well, this is somewhat of a myth is that if

631
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: there is sexual assault and you have penetrate, that the

632
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 3: vagina is always going to show trauma. And that is

633
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 3: not the case. When trauma is present, then that isn't

634
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: an indication that there has been a penetration of some sort. However,

635
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 3: if there's no trauma, you can't say or conclude that

636
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 3: no sexual assault occurred. You think about nineteen twenty seven,

637
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 3: you know they're doing microscopic exam from these vaginal swaps.

638
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 4: All they could do is look for sperm.

639
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: If you have of a sectimized individual, if you have

640
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: an individual that has a pathology in which cannot produce sperm,

641
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 3: which you run into. In these cases, they had no

642
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: ability to determine whether or not semen was present, you know,

643
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 3: So part of assessing, you know, what is the motive

644
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: of this offender. Of course, it's the state of her clothing,

645
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 3: But also offenders will sexually assault and allow a victim

646
00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 3: to redress herself and then kill. That happens. So now

647
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: I've got a twenty five minute window, you know. Could

648
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 3: she have been confronted by an offender early on after

649
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 3: getting off the commuter train. Could she have been sexually

650
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 3: assaulted where there's actually true penetration of her body, she redresses,

651
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 3: the offender ends up deciding nope, you're going to die.

652
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 3: I can't allow a living witness to this, and takes

653
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 3: her behind the house and kills her. That's one possibility

654
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 3: under the circumstances.

655
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: Well, what they do is they interview of course everyone around,

656
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: including the neighbors who live right next door who came

657
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,200
Speaker 2: home right before ten and say they didn't hear a thing.

658
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 2: So we're assuming that this was all concluded before ten o'clock.

659
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: They start looking at suspects, and there had been at

660
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: least one similar attack that was not a sexual assault.

661
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 2: It was an attack on a woman. Again, no signs

662
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: of a sexual assault to them. It doesn't mean anything

663
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: got it, But there had been several of these not

664
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 2: far from where she lived.

665
00:33:57,840 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: But they didn't have.

666
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: A suspect, and this was an unknown offender. But they

667
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 2: did not feel strongly that this was someone who would

668
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 2: have Actually there wasn't enough connection. I mean, it's felt similar,

669
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: but it would have been out of this person's geographic

670
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: area to have done this. I mean, they just did

671
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 2: not think this was going to be connected. They had

672
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 2: set their sights on a couple of other suspects in

673
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 2: the meantime.

674
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 3: So they're developing a name based on a solved case

675
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 3: in the area that they say is similar.

676
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 2: No, there are a couple of somewhat similar attempts at

677
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: kidnapping women, and they didn't work out that didn't have

678
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: the same method that this person used.

679
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: Whoever this person was.

680
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: It was simply there have been a couple of people

681
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: who have been attacked, but it wasn't similar enough for

682
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: them to believe that this was the work of a

683
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: serial attacker or serial rapist or killer or anything. This

684
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 2: was just some of the stuff that they were spitballing

685
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: to figure out where this person was. Sure, but they

686
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,080
Speaker 2: do have what they consider to be a couple of

687
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 2: interesting suspects. One is a guy named Charles Schlinker, and

688
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 2: I'm just going to call him Charles because I don't

689
00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 2: want to say his name over and over again.

690
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: Schlinker.

691
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: According to an investigator who worked on the case, this

692
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 2: is from a true crime detective magazine, which you and

693
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: I have talked about is an interesting source. But an

694
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: investigator gave an interview and this was the details that

695
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: he gave. Police got a call on the Wednesday following

696
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: the murder that Mabel's killer was hiding out under a

697
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 2: warehouse near the waterfront, which was about ten miles from

698
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 2: the crime scene. Police go, right, this was a big story.

699
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 2: They're under a lot of public pressure. Police go to

700
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: this warehouse and they find a man who was suffering

701
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: from what they perceived to be a mental illness. It

702
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,600
Speaker 2: was this man, Charles. He was forty years old from Sacramento.

703
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: He had a job, he was a boiler maker. What

704
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 2: was alarming to them was that he had a horrible

705
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: head wound and a bloodstained shirt, and he had reportedly

706
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 2: thrown his hat and code away because he didn't want

707
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: people to see how bloody they really were. So you've

708
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 2: got this anonymous call and they say, go down and

709
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: talk to this guy.

710
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 1: I think he was the killer.

711
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,959
Speaker 2: And they bring Charles in for questioning because he looked

712
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 2: like he's just been in a prize fight. So they

713
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: take him down to Oakland and they said that he

714
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: essentially said that he was beginning to have a lot

715
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 2: of paranoid delusions that he was being followed or harassed

716
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 2: in some way, and he was not able to give

717
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 2: any kind of specifics about the night of Mabel's murder,

718
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 2: so he just sat on a bench all night and

719
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: then checked into a hotel. So what do you think

720
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: about this? This is kind of two combinations of things.

721
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: There's a call saying go down there, and then this

722
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: man who looks like he's got some pretty extensive injuries.

723
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I would not expect the interaction between the

724
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 3: offender and Mabel that the offender would be suffering these

725
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: types of injuries.

726
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:56,479
Speaker 1: Right.

727
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 3: This more sounds akin to I mean, run into these

728
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: red herrings all the time. This man sounds like he

729
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 3: got into a fight with somebody else. And got his

730
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 3: butt kicked, and that somebody else decides to call in

731
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: the cops and say, here, here's your guy, just out

732
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 3: of spite. Of course, the million dollar question I have

733
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 3: is as well, did Charles' fingerprint match the buddy print

734
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 3: from Mabel's purse?

735
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: Nope, but there were other things that I thought were

736
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,760
Speaker 2: poor Charles. So Charles says he's at the Avalon Hotel

737
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 2: the night that Mabel is killed. They confirmed that he

738
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: was there. Charles was pretty hard to miss. He was

739
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 2: very bloody, he said, from a failed suicide attempt, and

740
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 2: he chose to hide out under the warehouse because that's

741
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: where he thought he was going to essentially go and die.

742
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 2: He said that this headwind was caused by him hitting

743
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: himself with a large stick, sort of like a two

744
00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 2: by four, and that he had cuts from a razor

745
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,959
Speaker 2: on his wrists. And when they went back to where

746
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: he had been at the warehouse, they found all of

747
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 2: that stuff. They found bloodstains, they found the razorblade. Every

748
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: part of Charles's upsetting story was corroborated by the evidence

749
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: that they found at the scene. So this was someone

750
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 2: that they concentrated on for quite a long time, just

751
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: based on a phone call and these injuries. But as

752
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:21,920
Speaker 2: soon as I read that, I thought you were going

753
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: to say that you weren't going to fall from my

754
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: red herring that I'm not seeing Mabel putting up a

755
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: fight in any way.

756
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: I don't think she had the ability to.

757
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 4: No, yeah, I do not see this.

758
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 3: There'd be evidence at the crime scene of that second

759
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 3: bleeder if he's bleeding that extensively. So Charles's injuries are

760
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: self inflicted and probably due to his visible appearance, his disarray,

761
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 3: his behaviors. Somebody sees him and they've read about Mabel's

762
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 3: case and they're going, oh, he must be the killer,

763
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 3: and that's why they call him in.

764
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 2: Now, look, I'm just going to show you this because

765
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: this is what can happen in the media. This is

766
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: him Charles. He looks very messed up. He looks like

767
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 2: he's taken a razor to his forehead. The headline says,

768
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:10,040
Speaker 2: is he the man Charles Schlinker, queer acting suspect held

769
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 2: for investigation by police. This is not helpful to Charles

770
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: at all.

771
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: I'm sure, well, you know those you know what you're saying,

772
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 3: took a razor to his forehead.

773
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 4: No, those are lacerations.

774
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: That's from him inflicting those blows with the wooden object

775
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 3: whatever that was, to his head, and he's been cleaned up,

776
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 3: you know, so those injuries probably bled extensively, you know,

777
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 3: at this point, and you could see that as his

778
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 3: right eye, you know, as swollen, is probably you know,

779
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 3: black and blue, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's

780
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 3: got an orbital fracture in there.

781
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: Oh gosh.

782
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: You know, this is par for course. The way that

783
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 3: he's being put out there to the public is inappropriate,

784
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: especially you know, in this day and age, it's very prejudicial.

785
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 3: I had a case. I was at a shooting in

786
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,319
Speaker 3: a bar. After a shooting, you know, I'm going to

787
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: the bar to process this crime scene. And then the

788
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 3: deputy that was security all said, I a loud voice outside,

789
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: and I go outside, and this deputy stopped a man

790
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 3: who's bleeding extensively. His eyeball is hanging down by his cheek,

791
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 3: you know, and now it's you know, the fight is on,

792
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 3: you know, and this guy he had just been in

793
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 3: another physical altercation, was not related to the shooting at all,

794
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 3: but now is walking right past a homicide scene, bleeding

795
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: and everything else. This is just the real world stuff,

796
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 3: and depending on the neighborhood in which the case is occurring,

797
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 3: happens more frequently in some neighborhoods than others.

798
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 2: Well, Charles is eventually cleared than goodness, because he's got

799
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,720
Speaker 2: bigger problems than even being a suspect in the murder case.

800
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: They turned their attention to police to a man named

801
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: David Barnett, who actually seems on the surface as a

802
00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 2: much better suspect to me. He was a wealthy East

803
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: Bay manufacturer. East Bay would be Oakland, Berkeley, California area,

804
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: and he is eventually linked to Mabel's case. But it's

805
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: a little hazy how this kidnapping case of hers happened.

806
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: In twenty seven, nineteen twenty seven, two years later, Barnett

807
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 2: was convicted of kidnapping charges involving a girl who lived

808
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,240
Speaker 2: near Mabel and went to the Frick School.

809
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: And the Frick.

810
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 2: School was the high school where Mabel had also gone. Okay,

811
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: so he was convicted of kidnapping charges. I don't know

812
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: what was involved with those kidnapping charges. I'm assuming it

813
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: would have been sexual assault of a minor.

814
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,759
Speaker 1: I don't know, but this is.

815
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: Someone who had come in front of the police, and

816
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,360
Speaker 2: the connection mostly comes from it sounds like one particular

817
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: Oakland police officer who said that he was known to

818
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 2: stalk schoolgirls at this school, and the officer said he

819
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: saw Barnett with Mabel at one point. Of course, Barnett

820
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 2: has denied kidnapping this other girl and has no clue

821
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: about Mabel at all, And it turns out there's no

822
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 2: real connection between Barnett and Mabel because she went to

823
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: school at a different time period. Still to be under

824
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: suspicion for kidnapping and convicted.

825
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 3: Well, Barnett, if he is truly involved with this other

826
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 3: kidnapping that he's convicted of, he's showing that he has

827
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 3: a propensity to commit to this type of crime. And so,

828
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: of course you have to pay attention to that. But

829
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 3: we have to get to the nexus of Mabel's case.

830
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 3: Is Barnett in the neighborhood when she gets off that train,

831
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 3: and is Barnett's fingerprint in Mabel's blood on her purse?

832
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,879
Speaker 1: Nope, Nope, big no on that one.

833
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: Okay, That's part of one of the things that I

834
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 3: think is stunning to many people is how many of

835
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 3: these guys are out there and any jurisdiction I know,

836
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 3: and that's what law enforcement we have to sort through.

837
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 3: You know, I've got, you know, an unsolved series of

838
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 3: sex workers that were brutally killed, and the number of

839
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 3: strange men that are in this area is just incredible,

840
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,479
Speaker 3: and he thinks, all, this's got to be the guy.

841
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 4: You know.

842
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 3: I had huge man, a guy that was over three

843
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 3: hundred pounds, six five or three hundred pounds, and he

844
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: kept getting stopped by patrol watching the sex workers while

845
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 3: he's sitting in his car absolutely nude. Oh my god,

846
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: and you go, he's got to be the killer, right, No,

847
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 3: he's not, you know, He's just one of these weird guys.

848
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 4: And there are many of them. So now going back

849
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 4: to nineteen twenty.

850
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 3: Seven, there are still a lot of weird guys in

851
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: this area, and Barnett is one of them.

852
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 2: That's why I don't really believe the serial predator story.

853
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 2: One or two women who are attacked and there just

854
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be any correlation except a man being

855
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 2: violent and attempting to assault a woman he doesn't know,

856
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: which crime statistics would say.

857
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: Even then, the nineteen hundreds would not be that unusual.

858
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 2: So Barnett seems like an interesting suspect, but the fingerprint clear,

859
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: and normally I would say, I don't know, relying everything

860
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 2: on a fingerprint, but in blood, this seems like a

861
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: pretty good print.

862
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 1: It seems like a good source for a print.

863
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 3: You know. Of course I haven't seen a photo of

864
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 3: the quality of this print, but let's say it's what

865
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 3: I would consider identification quality, Like this is obvious. You've

866
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 3: got the core, the delta, whatever, You've got enough detail.

867
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 3: The fact that it is in blood on Mabel's purse

868
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 3: that's significant, And yes, that is an item of evidence

869
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 3: that can be used to either I mean, if you

870
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 3: find somebody who matches right now, that's that's pc for

871
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 3: a rest. You know, you have to build a case.

872
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: But it's like, oh, you know what, you touched her

873
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 3: purse after she was bleeding. You are very much in

874
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: play as being the killer. If a person is eliminated,

875
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 3: then again, based on the quality of the print, I

876
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 3: would have confidence, well, that person is not the one

877
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,399
Speaker 3: who left the print. Could that person be a co

878
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 3: conspirator in the case, you know, an accessory in the case, possibly,

879
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 3: But isn't the person that left that print and there's

880
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 3: nothing about this crime right now that suggests multiple offenders.

881
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 3: So from my perspective, I am looking for the person

882
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 3: whose print is in Mabel's blood on her purse.

883
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 2: I'll tell you this case reminds me somewhat of the

884
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: Michael Morton case. You know, Michael Morton spent twenty years

885
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,919
Speaker 2: in prison for murdering his wife while his young son

886
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 2: was nearby. His son even said, who was very I

887
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:31,839
Speaker 2: think he was three or four at the time. He

888
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 2: said that the guy had red hands, and you know,

889
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: he had something on his head. He didn't look like daddy.

890
00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: He would have been able to identify as father. And

891
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 2: yet Michael Morton was convicted primarily on the jury thinking

892
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 2: he wasn't sympathetic enough on the stand. When they finally

893
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 2: tracked down this bandana that had been in evidence for

894
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 2: years that was found in the backyard, it had Christine's blood,

895
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 2: the victim's blood on it. So whoever perpetrator, whoever owned

896
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: that bandana was the killer. And then when they ran

897
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 2: DNA they found out who it was, who was a

898
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: convicted killer who had killed someone in the meantime.

899
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it's incredible.

900
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 2: So that kind of evidence includes doesn't exclude all the time, right, Yeah,

901
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:16,920
Speaker 2: you know that.

902
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 3: For me, that just speaks to that there was a

903
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 3: level of negligence and incompetence in that case, because if

904
00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 3: you have such an obvious item of evidence, that is

905
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 3: something that should be processed up front. When did that

906
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 3: case occur, as that during the DNA era.

907
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: It was eighty six Williamson County.

908
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 3: Oh, Okay, so it's prior to DNA, But most certainly

909
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: conventional serology might have been able to answer some of

910
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 3: the questions related to his connection to that red bandana.

911
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 3: The fact that it has the wife's blood on it,

912
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 3: it becomes a critical item of evidence. Going back to

913
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: Mabel's case, This is where I'm assuming you're going to

914
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 3: tell me they find a suspect who matches that bloody print.

915
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 2: Well, they find a suspect forty years later, Okay, someone

916
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: who confesses in the nineteen sixties. Forty years later, a

917
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 2: man named Nick Sachos. He confessed to killing Mabel, and

918
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 2: he also confessed to killing a high profile unsolved murder

919
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 2: involving a different schoolgirl named Stephanie Bryan around the same

920
00:47:18,640 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: time period.

921
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: Then he were.

922
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: Cants and he says, you know, I admitted to these

923
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 2: murders when I was drunk, and they actually never brought

924
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: charges against him because they cleared him. This was just

925
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 2: somebody who was spouting off forty years later, spouting off

926
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 2: about these crimes that happened in the nineteen twenties. But

927
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 2: he was cleared. They never charged him. There wasn't any evidence.

928
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 2: They think he just made it up. I still do

929
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: not understand how people can do that. You can just

930
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 2: make things up. I understand being pressured, to be pressured

931
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 2: into a confession is one thing and not right, But

932
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 2: to just say I attached myself to a case that

933
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,400
Speaker 2: I really had nothing to do with is really it

934
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: befuddles me.

935
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: I don't understand.

936
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 4: But it's common well, and the psychology of those individuals.

937
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,279
Speaker 3: They're individuals that are seeking attention. People say, why do

938
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 3: you want that kind of attention, but they do. But

939
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 3: I want to know, well, how did they clear this guy?

940
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 3: You know first, I mean forty years later and he's

941
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 3: aware of Mabel's case as well as this other case.

942
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 3: Why is he aware of those cases?

943
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 2: They were big cases, and he was from the area,

944
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: and he might have just been fixated on him. Maybe

945
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: they had a forty year anniversary newspapers frequently do that. Okay,

946
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 2: you know, something must have sparked something with him. I

947
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: don't even believe he was in town during either of

948
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 2: these at the time. I mean they really just said

949
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 2: there's nothing and he didn't know anything significant about either

950
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 2: case except what.

951
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 1: Was in the newspaper.

952
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 3: Okay, so he's not divulging intimate details that only the

953
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 3: killer would know. And then secondarily, I hope that they

954
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 3: actually did a direct comparison of his fingerprints to that

955
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 3: bloody print.

956
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,240
Speaker 1: Yep, no match.

957
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 4: Okay, so no match? No is Mabel's case unsolved? Then? Yep?

958
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: Unsolved? Can you imagine what that must be like for

959
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 2: her family? I mean just terrible.

960
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,840
Speaker 3: And this is an Oakland PD case, Yeah, Oakland. Oakland

961
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 3: is an agency that potentially could still have evidence from

962
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 3: Mabel's case, and if they do, I think it could

963
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 3: be revisited. You know, with modern technology.

964
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: How would that work though, because wouldn't all the fingerprints

965
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,359
Speaker 2: that they had collected been on index cards? How can

966
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,880
Speaker 2: you do that if there's no DNA would you be

967
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 2: testing for blood?

968
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 4: Well?

969
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: You know, first you know you have this fingerprint and

970
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 3: blood in the victim's blood so provided that it's a

971
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 3: sufficient quality that fingerprint. Even back in the day, the

972
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 3: way to record that type of evidence is through photography,

973
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 3: and so the photograph of that bloody print would be

974
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 3: in their latent print file or in their property room

975
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: as evidence that most certainly, if it's a sufficient quality,

976
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 3: can be searched in the FBI's APHIS system or IAPHIS

977
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 3: system today, and it's possible if the killer has been

978
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 3: printed and put in the system, you could affect an

979
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 3: identification just like that. I mean, you don't have to

980
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 3: resort to DNA. But also we know this is a crime.

981
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 3: She's being bludgeoned, the killer is up close with her,

982
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,320
Speaker 3: and I suspect that this is a sexually motivated crime.

983
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: So if they have her clothing items, if they have

984
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 3: the body swabs, test it.

985
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 4: And see if you get foreign DNA. The killer is

986
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 4: going to be male. So if you find male DNA

987
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 4: somewhere off of the evidence that Mabel has her purse,

988
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 4: go after it and see if you can identify this case.

989
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,000
Speaker 3: In nineteen twenty seven, the killer probably died well before

990
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 3: his DNA would have ever made it into the FBI's

991
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 3: code of system. This would be a genealogy case. So

992
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 3: if you get a male DNA profiled and see if

993
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 3: you can identify somebody who stands out as he was

994
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 3: in the neighborhood, he lived nearby, you know, or he's

995
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 3: a known killer. Help And so there are ways that

996
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 3: this case from nineteen twenty seven could be solved today.

997
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:15,280
Speaker 2: Well, I just know that this devastated Mabel's family, Oh sure,

998
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 2: And there was a massive funeral service for her. She

999
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: was at an LDS church and it was devastation for

1000
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 2: her family, especially to not have any answers. And we

1001
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 2: can only hope that someday there will be answers. And

1002
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 2: I know that this is ripe for a forensic genealogy case,

1003
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 2: and I would love if we got answers someday. These

1004
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,400
Speaker 2: are the kind of cases that are really difficult for me,

1005
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 2: involving young girls, teenage girls with all of this promise,

1006
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: and I hope it gets solved. But I am looking

1007
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: forward to bringing you more cases. I think it's important

1008
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 2: to shine a light on the victims that I think

1009
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 2: we've done a pretty good job with Mabel Mayors in

1010
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 2: this case.

1011
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, these these are the cases I focused on

1012
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 3: during my career. I focused in on cases where I

1013
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 3: had truly innocent victims whose lives were stolen. Mabel's cases

1014
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 3: is just like this, And Mabel's case is within my wheelhouse,

1015
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 3: you know. And so if this case had occurred in

1016
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy versus nineteen twenty seven, I would have been

1017
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,080
Speaker 3: on it in a minute if it was in my jurisdiction.

1018
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 3: In fact, I would have known about it out of Oakland,

1019
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:22,359
Speaker 3: because offenders that are committing crimes in Oakland, they're just

1020
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 3: going right up the road and getting into Contracosta County,

1021
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 3: you know. So I was always aware of what was

1022
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 3: happening in the Bay Area from the nineteen seventies up

1023
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,840
Speaker 3: until the current day nineteen twenty seven. Obviously it's a

1024
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: different story, but it is important to talk about these

1025
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 3: cases because what happened to Mabel and the circumstances, that's

1026
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 3: what's happening to victims today. You know, there's no difference.

1027
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 3: People back in nineteen twenty seven were committing the same

1028
00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: types of crimes, and so telling this story is also

1029
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:56,480
Speaker 3: alerting people who are listening that yes, you have to

1030
00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 3: be diligent, you know, either yourself or about your children,

1031
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 3: because there are guys out there that do these types

1032
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 3: of crimes.

1033
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:10,440
Speaker 2: YEP, Well, I'll look forward to talking to you next

1034
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 2: week about another case.

1035
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:13,879
Speaker 4: You just keep them coming.

1036
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1037
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to Exactlyrightmedia dot

1038
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

1039
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emrosi.

1040
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

1041
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

1042
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

1043
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

1044
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,440
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgariff, Georgia hart Stark and Daniel Kramer.

1045
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

1046
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 2: Bared Bones pod.

1047
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

1048
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

1049
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now

1050
00:53:56,520 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 2: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My Life Songvving America's

1051
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,839
Speaker 2: Cold Cases is also available now