1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Broadcasting live from the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio, the George 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 1: Washington Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Joe, Katty Armstrong and 3 00:00:11,000 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: Jetty and he Armstrong and Yetty. 4 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 2: Speaking of the Pope, the trading card company Tops said 5 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: that Pope Leo's new card just became their best selling. 6 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: Nonsports trading card of all time. 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: My guess is, if you collect pope trading cards, you're 8 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: probably more celibate than the Pope. 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, boy ouch, I see his point. I'm kidding. 10 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,480 Speaker 3: Talking to Tim Sander for this hour of the Goldwater 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 3: Institute about the recent Supreme Court oral arguments about ostensibly 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 3: the birthright citizenship question the Fourteenth Amendment, But what most 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 3: of the hearing was about was can a single federal 14 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: judge issue anation wide injunction and stop an administration from 15 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 3: executing its policy for a significant amount of time? What 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: are the reasons why that's a good idea and what 17 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 3: are the reasons why it's a bad idea? 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: And we'll discuss that. Yeah, looking forward to it. 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 3: Will be a little cerebral, so you know, get yourself 20 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 3: in the right. 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,320 Speaker 1: Mood, bring your brain well. 22 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 4: It sure is tiring to every time the a president 23 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 4: does something, then you get alerts on your phone. A 24 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 4: judge in Minneapolis has said no, Joe Biden can't do that, 25 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 4: and then another judge. 26 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: Somewhere else says, yes he can. 27 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 3: It's back on, and you know the back and forth, right, Yeah, exactly. 28 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 3: It's an interesting challenge because that sort of thing has 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 3: been skyrocketing in recent years. They it was practically unknown 30 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 3: for the first one hundred and fifty years of our country, 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: and then there it happened once or twice here and 32 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 3: there every decade and a half. And now it's like 33 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 3: every three weeks. So anyway, more on that to come. 34 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: Headline today. Of more immediate concern, I think to most 35 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 3: folks is from the Wall Street Journal tech department. Meta 36 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 3: battles an epidemic of scams as criminals flood Instagram and Facebook. 37 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 3: And this is by the standards of like six months ago. 38 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: It's a flood. Compared to that, fake puppies and phony 39 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 3: offers of mouthwatering bargains are often seated by overseas crime networks. 40 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: Employees see say the company is reluctant to impede its 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 3: advertising juggernauts. 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 4: So I did start to get into Facebook Marketplace because 43 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 4: somebody told me I mentioned I was using Craigslist for something. 44 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:38,080 Speaker 4: They said, Craigslist. Nobody uses Craigslist anymore. Everything's on Facebook Marketplace. 45 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 4: I thought, okay, I'm probably behind the times. But particularly 46 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: I was looking for coincidentally, an Apple Vision pro headset, 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 4: and there were so many, so cheap, and it was like, 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 4: you know, deal's too good to be true. And then 49 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 4: I started doing a little researching and there's lots of 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 4: fake Apple products out there. 51 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: And then so. 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 4: Then I just don't know how much of the marketplace 53 00:02:58,440 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 4: thing is phony, and I just kind of bailed on 54 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 4: the whole deal. 55 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: But wow, yeah, yeah. 56 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 3: They open with a guy who runs a like a 57 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 3: wholesale home improvement supplies garden equipment in bulk out of 58 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 3: a suburban Atlanta warehouse, and bunches of people have been 59 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: ripped off thinking they're buying from him, and when the 60 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 3: products never arrived, they all call him to complain. 61 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 1: He has to tell them the bad news they've been swindled. 62 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: Oh that sucks. 63 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, what sucks, he says, is we have to break 64 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 3: it to be layd been scammed. 65 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: We don't even do online sales. 66 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: We keep reporting these pages to Meta, but nothing ever 67 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 3: happens meta platforms. 68 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: The or companies, yes. 69 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 4: Or metas trying and they can't go as fast as 70 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 4: the people keep putting them back up. 71 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: He can probably have. 72 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 4: An AI bot that puts them up faster than they 73 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 4: could be taken down. 74 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 3: That's possible, although that's not what the article suggests. 75 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 1: Okay. 76 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 3: Meta platforms is increasingly a cornerstone of the Internet fraud economy. 77 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 3: According to regulators, banks, and internal documents reviewed by the journal, 78 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 3: The company accounted for nearly half of all reported scams 79 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 3: on Zel. It's a payment service you might use. The 80 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: peer to peer payment platform is owned by several banking giants, 81 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: including JP Morgan and Wells Fargo. Other banks that offer 82 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: Zel have experienced similarly high fraud claims originating on Meta. 83 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 3: British and Australian regulators have found similar levels of fraud 84 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 3: originating on metas platforms. Internal analysis from twenty twenty two 85 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 3: described in company documents Likewise, found that seventy percent of 86 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 3: newly active advertisers on the platform are promoting scams, illicit goods, 87 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 3: or low quality products. 88 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's interesting because Craigslist was huge for a long time, 89 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 4: destroyed newspapers across the country. We all went to Craigslist, 90 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 4: and I'm sure there were plenty of scams on Craigslist, 91 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 4: but I didn't. I wasn't never I used Crazelist a lot, 92 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 4: never came up against a scam. But on the Facebook 93 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 4: marketplace it seems to be all over the place. I 94 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 4: wonder what the difference is. Just the Internet era that 95 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 4: we're in now. 96 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 3: Is different, yes, and I think the criminal enterprises have 97 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,840 Speaker 3: caught up to the opportunities. But again, going back two 98 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 3: and a half years, seven out of ten of newly 99 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: active advertisers or scammers of some sort or another account 100 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 3: information for the scam pages from the guy in Atlanta 101 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: we talked about show they are run out of China, 102 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 3: Sri Lanka, Vietnam, and the Philippines. But they use stolen 103 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: pictures of the warehouse and list its address with more 104 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 3: than three billion daily users on Meta's platforms. 105 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: Holy cow. 106 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 4: So those are advertisers, which is different than like, I 107 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 4: just keep focusing on Facebook. 108 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: Marketplace, right advertisers? 109 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 4: Well, like, go on your Facebook marketplace, tap in Apple 110 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 4: Watch near you and try to figure out which of 111 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 4: those ads are real and which are a whole bunch 112 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 4: of them have to be fake. 113 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: Like a lot of them. 114 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: Okay, well, seventy percent perhaps, But anyway, with more than 115 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 3: three billion daily users on Metas platforms, fraud is hardly 116 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: a new phenomenon for the company. But fed by the 117 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 3: rise of cryptocurrencies, generative AI, and vast overseas crime networks 118 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 3: based out of Southeast Asia, the immensity of metas scam 119 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 3: problem is growing and has been regularly flagged by employees 120 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 3: over the last several years. But here's where you get 121 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,799 Speaker 3: into the are they really trying hard? As Jack, who's 122 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: plainly under the pay of Mark Zuckerberg, tried to claim. 123 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 4: I wish I could current, Ay, Mark, I could be yeah, Mark, 124 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: reach out to I'm. 125 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 3: Sign to our DMS or whatever you do on Facebook, 126 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 3: I'm not on it. But anyway, current and former employees 127 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 3: say Meta is reluctant to add impediments for ad buying clients, 128 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: who drove a twenty two percent increase in advertising last 129 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 3: year to over one hundred and sixty billion dollars, even 130 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 3: after users demonstrate a history of scamming. If the checks 131 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 3: keep coming Meta Box and removing. 132 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: Them, that's unbelievable. Well, our whole lives of You know, 133 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 4: if you're anywhere near our age, you grew up with. 134 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: Radio and TV. 135 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 4: Every single ad you heard, minus like three were legit 136 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 4: and your whole life. 137 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, just you didn't have endless scam advertisers. 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 3: On radio and TV all day long, right, right, there 139 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,119 Speaker 3: was some sort of gatekeeper involved. There's the occasional buyer 140 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: be where a question of quality or value or whatever, 141 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: but not just a right you give them your money 142 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: and never get anything back. 143 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Right. So here's here's the really damning part of this. 144 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 3: Current and former employees say Meta is reluctant to add impediments, 145 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. Uh one late last year document 146 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: reviewed by The Wall Street Journal shows that the company 147 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 3: will allow advertisers to accrue between eight and thirty two 148 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: automated strikes for financial fraud before it bans their accounts. 149 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 3: I mean eight and thirty two. 150 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: In instances where a Meta employee personally escalates the problem, 151 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 4: the limit can drop to between four and sixteen. The 152 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 4: correct number is one, yeah, or zero, depending on how 153 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 4: you look at it. 154 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: You know, one striking, you're out. That's crazy. 155 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 3: And marketplace is a big part of the problem because 156 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 3: that is advertising, but a meta spokesmans is the company's 157 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 3: working to address the epidemic of scams that has grown 158 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 3: in scale and complexity in recent years, driven by cross 159 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: border criminal networks. 160 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: And I hate to come off as a racist or 161 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: something here, but. 162 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 4: I would look at again, looking at applevision pro headsets. 163 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 4: They cost like three thousand dollars new, and I was 164 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: seeing them on there sometimes as low as like eight 165 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 4: hundred dollars, nine hundred dollars, and it. 166 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: Would be attached to some Middle Eastern name. 167 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 4: Now that doesn't automatically make it a scam, I know that, 168 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 4: but it seemed like all the really low priced ones 169 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 4: without a box where some foreign name yeah, and so 170 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 4: I don't know, and then the other end of this 171 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 4: and then we can move on. 172 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: And we talked about this, I think a couple of 173 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 3: weeks ago. The report estimated organized scamming operations, often called 174 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 3: pig butchering groups, comprised hundreds of thousands of people. Many 175 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 3: of the scammers trafficked after falling for fraudulent social media 176 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: employment adds themselves kept in prison like compounds. The workers 177 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 3: are forced to work under threat of extreme forms of 178 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 3: torture and abuse. 179 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: In the United States. No, in Southeast Asia. 180 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 4: In Southeast Asia, yeah, I couldn't tell that are just 181 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: originated there and they're getting to people there. 182 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: Okay, so getting Yeah. 183 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 3: They have warehouses full of people who will be whipped, beaten, 184 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 3: and tortured if they don't try to scam you, you know, 185 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 3: eighteen hours a day. 186 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: Wow. 187 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: And then this law enforcement gal who's looking into this 188 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 3: says the growth of this nightmarish industry stems directly from 189 00:09:57,520 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 3: the inaction of Meta, and to lesser extent, it's social 190 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 3: media peers. 191 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 4: Well, all I need to hear is you have an 192 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 4: eighteen strikes in your out policy. 193 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: I mean, what the hell is that? Yeah? 194 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, wow, beyond buyer beware, I'm not sure I'd even 195 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 3: want to wade into that. 196 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: Like I said, I bailed. 197 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 4: I was really interested in buying an Apple product and 198 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 4: finally just decided it's too big a mess for me 199 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 4: to deal with. 200 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: I'd forget. Hey, here's one more example. 201 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 3: I can't resist because peer to peer sales are trade 202 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 3: of live animals are banned on Meta outside of narrow contexts. 203 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: Peer to peer, So if another talk show host wanted 204 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 4: to buy a goat. 205 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:43,559 Speaker 3: From me, no, just like another user, okay, another facebooker. 206 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 3: But a recent search for puppies yielded thousands of ads, 207 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: most stating no affiliation with a known dog reader or 208 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 3: rescue organization. As Meta's rules require, other red flags abounded. 209 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 3: Many of the results displayed common hallmarks of scams, including 210 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 3: stolen photos of specific pets and ads from sellers supposedly 211 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: near me who are actually operating out of Cameroon checking locations. 212 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: I am not in Cameroon. I'm going to see I'm 213 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: going to see the Cameroon puppies tonight. 214 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: They're good, but so loud. Bring earplugs. So you know 215 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 3: Facebook has these, and Instagram the Meta. You know outlets 216 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,679 Speaker 3: have these alleged rules, but they have zero interest or 217 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 3: practically no interest in enforcing them. 218 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 4: Zuckerberg, come on, you're smart, dude. That's some short term thinking. 219 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 4: If enough people like me bail from the marketplace because 220 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 4: they think there's too many fraudsters, then you get nothing. 221 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: It's like the Laffer tax curve. I mean, if everybody. 222 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 4: Decides it's full of frauds, you're you're not gonna make 223 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 4: more money, You're gonna make zero money. 224 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: Oh I'm chump. I'm channeling Mark Zuckerberg. I am gifted 225 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: in the psychic arts. He's speaking to me, speaking through me, Jack, 226 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm all already a billionaire. 227 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 3: Shut up, Mark Zuckerberg waiting in there. 228 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 4: Or more likely he's just trying to keep these quarterly 229 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 4: numbers up. I'll worry about the next quarter. 230 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: Next quarter. 231 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: Scammers checks, they cash baby, that's what he's thinking. 232 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: Wow. 233 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 4: I wonder what we'll go to if Mark if back 234 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 4: to Criggs list, you're back to classified in your local newspaper. 235 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: Radio Saturday mornings, I got a sat of snow tires. 236 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 3: I'm willing to trade for a life boat or something similar. 237 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 3: On numbers five, five, twelve. 238 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 4: Twelve, Tim sander for this hour to talk about the 239 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 4: Supreme Court arguments from yesterday, among other things. 240 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 5: Passenger recently shared a video of roaches in the cabin 241 00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:47,200 Speaker 5: of a Spirit Airlines flight. 242 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: Wow, they really can survive anything. That's a twist. That's 243 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: a good punchline. 244 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 4: I like that Supreme Court arguments yesterday about whether or 245 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 4: not all these federal judge across the country can say 246 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 4: no to presidents and their executive orders. And we'll discuss 247 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 4: that with Tim Sanderford coming up. It's pretty interesting topic. 248 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 4: This is also an interesting topic, trying to find unbiased 249 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 4: or the least biased news out there. This was sent 250 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 4: to me from Ping Pong Olympics broadcaster Jim Kozmoor of 251 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: among other things that he's done in his life, he's 252 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 4: a big fan of News Nation and he's been trying 253 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 4: to get me to watch News Nation for he was 254 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 4: the first person ever turned me on to Fox News, 255 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 4: like twenty five years ago. He said, fair and balanced, 256 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 4: you gotta watch it. So I started watching Fox after 257 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 4: years of CNN and whatever. And then he's been hammering 258 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 4: News Nation for a while and he sent me this. 259 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 4: This is this media bias chart from a company that 260 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 4: does this for a living. And as I've been saying, 261 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 4: I started watching NewsNation a couple of weeks ago, and 262 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 4: it's it's so it's so weirdly non confrontational. 263 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 1: It almost feels drop. 264 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 4: I am like boring, and I have to keep reminding 265 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 4: myself that confrontation isn't what you're looking for out of 266 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 4: every news story. 267 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: You're just trying to get the facts. 268 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 4: And it's just it's we're all so used to everything 269 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 4: being presented in a shouty way from one side anyway, 270 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 4: this company that looks at media bias. 271 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: They're top four slots were all News Nation programs throughout 272 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: the day that had the least. 273 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 4: Media bias, with number five being Brettbear Special Report on Fox, 274 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 4: which is another news show we all like around here. 275 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:35,480 Speaker 4: So I just say, give it a look. It is 276 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 4: it is. It is weird if you're used to like 277 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 4: a strong point of view and anger. We've all gotten 278 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 4: so accustomed to it. It just I don't know. I 279 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 4: guess it's like people who are addicted to drama. If you 280 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 4: grew up in a family that had lots of drama 281 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 4: and then you go and hang out with some family 282 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 4: that has zero drama, maybe it seems like uncomfortably boring 283 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 4: to you to where the family if no drama likes 284 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 4: it that way. 285 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 1: Right, Sure, Yeah, yeah. 286 00:15:04,440 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 3: I once heard a couple of describing the fact that 287 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 3: he came from a family that was very I can't 288 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 3: remember which was switching, that doesn't matter. That was very 289 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 3: English and hers was very Italian, and if you know 290 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 3: anything about those cultures, that would be a tough thing 291 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 3: to get used to. 292 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, eat a direction. 293 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 4: I'm going to both the DMV and The Doctor today 294 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 4: back to back, quick doctor's appointment and then to the DMV, 295 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 4: which will be more bureaucratic, unfulfilling. I'm sorry, you don't 296 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 4: have the right form. It's going to be quite the contest, well, 297 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 4: and which will just be generally be more preferable being 298 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 4: probed and jabbed with short sharp objects or being subjected 299 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 4: to the special mental. 300 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 1: Torture of the DMV. 301 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 4: Right, this isn't the right form. I don't even know 302 00:15:56,640 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 4: what to do at this point. And that could happen with. 303 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: The insurance all right, or at the DMV either one. Well, 304 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: that's true. 305 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 3: Doctor's offices have really up their game, mostly unintentionally because 306 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 3: now they have such compliance hurdles from the many thousands 307 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: of laws and regulations. They're becoming more and more DMV 308 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: like in some ways. 309 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 4: I've been a couple of times in the last few years, unfortunately, 310 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 4: where it's like emergency situation and man, they get that 311 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 4: paperwork in front of you. 312 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: Who's paying for this? 313 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 4: Again? Sorry trying to talk over your screams, but who's 314 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 4: paying for this? 315 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 1: We need to make sure we know who's paying for 316 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 1: this before we start in on any of these. 317 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 3: The DMV has got to come up with an excuse 318 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 3: or two to penetrate your body in one way or another. 319 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: If they're going to keep up with doctors. 320 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 4: Offices always have to throw in the caveat if you're 321 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 4: like a working, honest person who's going to follow the law. Now, 322 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,119 Speaker 4: if I just said no, I'm here illegally from l. Salvador, 323 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 4: they just go ahead and treat me and write it 324 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 4: off somehow, and tax pers would pick up the bill. 325 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 3: It's a good point. Yeah, yeah, we are paying for everyone. Congratulations, 326 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 3: We thank you, Tim Sanders joining us. Yeah, the fourteenth Amendment, 327 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 3: birthright citizenship nationwide injunctions by a single federal judge. 328 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: What to make of all this? Coming up next? Stay 329 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: with us, Armstrong and Getty. 330 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:19,239 Speaker 4: So I've been living this reality for a while now, 331 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 4: and it's growing as a problem. A president decides to 332 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 4: do something with an executive order or whatever, often that 333 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 4: they promised on the campaign trail, their voters get all excited. 334 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: Yay, they did it day one like they. 335 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 4: Promised, And then then I get an alert on my phone. 336 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 4: Some judge somewhere I've never heard of it said no, 337 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: you can't do that, and then it stops, and everybody's 338 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 4: like Groan's like, oh, they can do that, and it 339 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,919 Speaker 4: keeps happening over and over again, and uh, do we 340 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 4: want that system to continue that way or not? As 341 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 4: part of what the Supreme Court was arguing about yesterday, 342 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 4: and as one of the justices said, there are six 343 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 4: hundred some federal judges and while I do not question 344 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 4: their motives, sometimes there are they are are wrong. 345 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: So do we want them to be able to hold 346 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: up the whole country? 347 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: Let us discuss the very interesting and multifaceted oral arguments 348 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 3: yesterday before the Supreme Court with Tim Sandefer, vice president 349 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute, among other auspicious titles, 350 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,760 Speaker 3: author of eight books, including most recently Freedom's Theories, How 351 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: Isabel Patterson, Rosewilder and ein Rand Found Liberty and Age 352 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 3: of Darkness. 353 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: I've recommended it many times. It's terrific. Tim. How are you, sir? 354 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 1: Just great? 355 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 5: Thanks for having me back. 356 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 1: Guys published poet. Gotta throw that in there. True, Yes, 357 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: a polymath as they say. 358 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 3: Anyway, Tim, so ostensibly everyone's talking about that we are 359 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 3: going to discuss birthright citizenship in front of the Supreme Court, 360 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,239 Speaker 3: and that did come up. But would you agree that 361 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 3: the more significant discussion was about nationwide injunctions by individual 362 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 3: federal judges. 363 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 5: Oh, yes, absolutely, that was the focus of the argument, 364 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 5: and it was a very interesting argument. But I don't 365 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,800 Speaker 5: think that it's a hard question. I think the answer 366 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 5: is obviously nationwide. The injunctions are perfectly fine. They're the 367 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 5: ordinary way of doing business in the courts, and people 368 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 5: who complain about them either don't understand the system or 369 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 5: are trying to get away with something illegal. 370 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah I don't. 371 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: I don't always like that it happened, but I can't 372 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 4: see what the alternative would be. As somebody pointed out, 373 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 4: so you're gonna let me. I guess it was you 374 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 4: that pointed it out yesterday in Twitter. The idea that 375 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 4: so every time a president does something, it's got to 376 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 4: work its way all the way through the courts up 377 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 4: to the Supreme Court, and then a decision by the 378 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 4: Supreme Court. Before the Supreme Court might say sometimes nine nothing, 379 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 4: you can't do that. 380 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 5: Oh wait, and during that whole period of time, the 381 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:42,120 Speaker 5: government is still doing the illegal thing. 382 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:45,399 Speaker 3: Right right, Wow, So clearly it's two to one for 383 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: a judicial takeover of the government. 384 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: But I will stand up for liberty. 385 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 4: Uh. 386 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: Is there no middle ground. 387 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 3: It's got to be three judge panel and not a 388 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 3: single ya who in a rural Tennessee. 389 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think. I think having a single unit ya 390 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 5: who in rural Tennessee is perckly fine, because that's what 391 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 5: the appellate process is sort of, that's why you appeal cases. 392 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 5: And by the way, that's why you should avoid appointing 393 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 5: yahoos to the federal bench. Might mention that too. The argument, 394 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 5: the argument against nation right injunctions always seems to boil 395 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 5: down to, well, this is a democracy and the majority 396 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,679 Speaker 5: should always get what it wants. And the answer to 397 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 5: that is no where what happened to all of my 398 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 5: friends who used to say, this is a republic, not 399 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 5: a democracy. The whole point of our system is that 400 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 5: the majority has to act lawfully, and if it acts unlawfully, 401 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 5: I can go in front of a judge and get 402 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 5: that given order from that judge prohibiting the government from 403 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 5: violating my rights. And the idea that this that we 404 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 5: should do this piece meal, that only a judge down here, 405 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 5: that his order only applies there. Meanwhile, the government can 406 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 5: do illegal things to everybody else in the country until 407 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 5: the case reaches the US Supreme court makes no sense 408 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 5: at all. 409 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:55,320 Speaker 3: The underlying theme here being, folks that what we really 410 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: need to fear is the power of the government in 411 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 3: this country is kind of the idea of forming it. 412 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 3: So there's no question that these nationwide injunctions were relatively 413 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 3: or practically completely unknown for one hundred and fifty years. 414 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 3: Then there were a handful of them, and the number 415 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 3: of them is now skyrocks every day. 416 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: It seems like on my phone, I see a judge 417 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:14,880 Speaker 1: jumped in. 418 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 5: Someone Actually right, I actually don't think that that's true. 419 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 5: I think that what happened was we just started calling 420 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,439 Speaker 5: them by a different name. You know, there were been 421 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 5: injunction injunctions against unconstitutional government actions since before there was 422 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 5: a constitution. One of the points that was brought up 423 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 5: during the arguments was that British judges used to do 424 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 5: this before the American Revolution, and that was considered perfectly legitimate. 425 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 5: It's just that nowadays we call them nation right injunctions, 426 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 5: or we have some judges who write sloppily and don't 427 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 5: explain what they're actually saying or something, And okay, that's 428 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 5: a problem, I suppose. But the idea that you should 429 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 5: limit the injunction power of federal courts. Is what that 430 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 5: is is that's open door to the majority violating individual 431 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 5: rights on a scale that I mean, they already do it, 432 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 5: but you can imagine what it would be if we 433 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 5: took away one of the most important protections for individual 434 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 5: rights in this country, which is getting an injunction from 435 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 5: our federal court to protect their freedom. And that's insane. 436 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 4: So I didn't want to get to this part too 437 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 4: fast because you're a lawyer, and this part can't be 438 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 4: fixed with the law. 439 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: It seems to me. 440 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 4: That we've got a cultural problem in that presidents are 441 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 4: way more likely than they used to be to want 442 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 4: to challenge the Supreme Court, either to like legitimately they 443 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 4: don't think the law is correct, or they don't care 444 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 4: if they're wrong. 445 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: They just want to get the political credit for trying. 446 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 4: And perhaps I don't know this, but it seems like 447 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 4: a likely response. The six hundred some federal judges out there, 448 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 4: there's a lot more of them who are willing to 449 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 4: let their politics get ahead of their judge reasoning and 450 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 4: jump in and stop somebody they hate. 451 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 5: Yes, you're absolutely right about that, and especially the thing 452 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,120 Speaker 5: about the President and Congress being willing to do things 453 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 5: that they know are unconstitutional because they know that the 454 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 5: judges are going to strike it down, and they can 455 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 5: blame the judges and say all those evil activist judges, 456 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,199 Speaker 5: or they can get away with their unconstitutional things. So 457 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 5: it's win when if you want to do something unconstitutional. 458 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,639 Speaker 5: And honestly, every president's done this to some degree. Obviously 459 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 5: Franklin Roosevelt did this a lot. But the one that 460 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 5: I always six in my memory is George W. Bush 461 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 5: when he signed the McCain fine Gold campaign finance law 462 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 5: and said when he signed it that he thought it 463 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 5: was unconstitutional, but that he would leave it to the 464 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 5: courts to deal with. Well, I'm sorry, but if you're 465 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 5: the president, you take an oath to support and defend 466 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 5: the constitution of the United States. And if you ignore 467 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 5: that oath and sign something that you know is unconstitutional 468 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 5: just because you think the courts will clean up your 469 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 5: mess for you, I think that's disgraceful. 470 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, a lot of the pieces I've read that have 471 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 4: been following the growth of this use that as kind 472 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,159 Speaker 4: of like the patient zero because he said it out loud, 473 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 4: and then other presidents thought. 474 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 1: Hey, I can do that. 475 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 4: I just won't say it out loud, and Obama did it, 476 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 4: and Biden did it, and Trump did it in whichever order, 477 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,199 Speaker 4: and then Trump again, and and and it's how do 478 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 4: we fix this? 479 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 5: Well, there's a long answer and the short answer. The 480 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 5: short answer is elect good presidents. The long answer is 481 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 5: that we have to restore respect for the Constitution in 482 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 5: this country. I think it's the long term damage that's 483 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 5: been done to Americans understanding and appreciation of the Constitution 484 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 5: is horrifying. We have prominent law professors. There was a 485 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 5: law professor at at Georgetown Law School a few years 486 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 5: ago published an article in The Washington Post saying, the 487 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,959 Speaker 5: Constitution is obsolete. I don't respect it at all. Well, 488 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 5: you're a teacher of constitutional law for crying out loud. 489 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 5: And if we don't respect the Constitution, we don't love it. 490 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 5: It cannot protect us. The Constitution is just a promise, 491 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 5: and if we don't honor that promise, then it's not 492 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 5: worth the paper it's written on. 493 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 3: We should have written a law specifically putting him in jail. 494 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,719 Speaker 3: In my opinion, Tim Sandefer is online from the Goldwater 495 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 3: Institute Little Constitutional Humor for. 496 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: Exactly punish one man. 497 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: That's a good idea now so you know, blah blah blah, 498 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 3: disclaimer about it's difficult to read the tea leaves of 499 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 3: the oral arguments, blah blah blah. Did it strike you 500 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 3: that the justices, the sane ones that we like, were 501 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 3: leaning in any particular direction as to the nationwide injunctions judges, 502 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: et cetera that we've been discussing. 503 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 5: Some of the judges have made clear for a long 504 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 5: time that they're against these what they call nationwide injunctions. 505 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 5: Justice Thomas in particular. Some of the others are a 506 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 5: little harder to read. Justice Barrett, for example, and Justice Roberts, 507 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 5: who have become really the swing judges on this issue. 508 00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 5: I thought the most interesting judge if you want to 509 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 5: if anybody wants to go and listen to the argument online, 510 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 5: I thought Justice Jackson was the one who is the 511 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 5: most interesting. She clearly understands how this area of the 512 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 5: law works, and she rightly says there's no there there 513 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,719 Speaker 5: that nationwide injunctions are perfectly legitimate. They always have been 514 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 5: and there's no problem. So she'd be the one that 515 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 5: I find most interesting. But how to predict I think 516 00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 5: you're going to get. I think Justice Roberts and Justice 517 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,199 Speaker 5: Barrett are going to a side with the liberals and 518 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 5: say we don't have a problem per se with nationwide injunction. 519 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 5: But maybe some of them aren't very good, but as 520 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 5: a blanket matter, they're okay. And then they're going to 521 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 5: want to hear the underlying case about birthright citizenship, which 522 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 5: obviously is a huge deal. 523 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: That sound about right to me. 524 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 3: Is it even worth getting into what happened on that 525 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: topic yesterday or do you think it's. 526 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 5: Well, they really just talked about whether or not they 527 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 5: have a legitimate case in the first place, and they 528 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 5: haven't really briefed it or argued it yet. But that's 529 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 5: important because in order to get an injunction, you kind 530 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 5: of have to first show that you have even an 531 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,719 Speaker 5: arguable point to make, and that was what they were 532 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 5: arguing about. And I will say, I know this is 533 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 5: talk radio, and we're all supposed to think that we 534 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 5: clearly have the right answer and everything. I think the 535 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,880 Speaker 5: birthright citizenship question is a very hard question. I don't 536 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 5: think it's an easy question on either side. 537 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 4: Let's talk about that when we come back from the break. 538 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 4: I want to hear the arguments on both sides. 539 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:54,199 Speaker 1: Of that. 540 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,360 Speaker 4: That's interesting And clearly you've probably seen the breakdown who 541 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 4: speaks the most. 542 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: The chicks talk too much? Is that given? 543 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 5: Well, Jessic so to my r does love cutting off 544 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 5: lawyers and not letting them answer her questions. 545 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, the chicks talk too so much. 546 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 3: I think that's been in the new Gal talks more 547 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,439 Speaker 3: than anybody. That shouldn't happen in any organization. All right, 548 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 3: more with Tim Sandefert in just a moment or two. 549 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 3: But first word from our friends at Prize Picks. The 550 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 3: best place to get in on the action is the 551 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 3: basketball playoffs. 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I 560 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 4: got a good story about that coming up in a 561 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 4: little bit. 562 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,679 Speaker 3: But man, that is going to be some game tonight 563 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 3: and during the basketball playoffs, every lineup you make on 564 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 3: Prize Picks will enter you in the Takes two ticket sweepstakes, 565 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 3: which could get you and a plus one a VIP 566 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 3: trip to the Championship Series Holy Cats. 567 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: Download the Prize Picks app today. 568 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 3: Use the code armstrong to get fifty bucks instantly after 569 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 3: you play dollar lineup again. 570 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: That's the code Armstrong. 571 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 3: You get fifty dollars instantly after you play a modest 572 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 3: five dollars lineup. 573 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: It's automatic. 574 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: You do not have to win withdrawals fast safe and 575 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 3: scare some hit your account as little as fifteen minutes. 576 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: Prize Picks run your game. 577 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 4: Tim's gonna stick around, and I got this question for 578 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 4: him when we come back. He can think on should 579 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 4: the media attached to every judge what president appointed him? 580 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: Does that help us or hurt us? I love that one. 581 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: On the way stay here. 582 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 5: Strong. 583 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: On the actual case itself, I've always thought. 584 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 4: It's obvious that now is designed for slaves, and you 585 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 4: shouldn't be able to be like a Chinese. A rich 586 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 4: Chinese family that comes the United States, has your baby 587 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 4: in San Francisco and then gets all the benefits of 588 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 4: being a US citizen forever. But a lot of really 589 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 4: smart people I like think there's a good reason for that. 590 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: So I'm looking forward to hearing that. 591 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: Discussing the oral arguments before the Supreme Court yesterday with 592 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 3: Tim Sanderfervice, President for Legal Affairs at the Goldwater Institute. 593 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 3: It was advertised as a birthright citizenship hearing it or discussion. 594 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 3: It really was much more a discussion of individual federal 595 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: judges and nationwide in junctions and that sort of thing. 596 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 3: But to the question of the Fourteenth Amendment, Tim, you 597 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 3: said before the break that it's not an easy call. 598 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 3: I'm glad to hear you agree. I've thought the same thing. 599 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 3: What should we know about the fourteenth Amendment even come 600 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 3: to a semi intelligent opinion on this? 601 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 5: Well, the first sentence of the fourteenth Amendment says, all 602 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 5: persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject 603 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 5: to the jurisdiction thereof, are US citizens. 604 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: And all of this. 605 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,720 Speaker 5: Case, all of these arguments turn on that phrase subject 606 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 5: to the jurisdiction thereof. What does that phrase mean? It's 607 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 5: really tough because the word jurisdiction is one of those 608 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 5: words that can mean all sorts of different things. It 609 00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 5: basically means power, but there's all sorts of different kinds 610 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 5: of power, and so that's what the argument turns on. 611 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 5: Some people think that it means you have to follow 612 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 5: the law born here, and you have to follow the law, 613 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 5: then you're subject of the jurisdiction thereof, and then that 614 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 5: means you're a citizen. But that doesn't really make a 615 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 5: lot of sense because even foreign tourists who come here 616 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 5: for a vacation have to follow the law. I mean, 617 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 5: they have to stop at red lights and they can't 618 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 5: steal things, So that can't be what that means, right. Instead, 619 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,719 Speaker 5: the other side argues jurisdiction thereof means some kind of 620 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 5: loyalty or allegiance, that there's citizenship jurisdiction, as opposed to 621 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 5: follow the law jurisdiction, and that difference. You can see 622 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 5: that difference for example, in this if you're a foreign spy. 623 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 5: Now you sneak into the country and you spy for 624 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 5: some foreign country and you get it arrested, you can 625 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 5: be prosecuted for espionage, but you cannot be prosecuted for treason. 626 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 5: Why because you're not a US citizen and you don't 627 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 5: owe loyalty to the US, so you cannot commit treason 628 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 5: against the US. And so there's two different kinds of jurisdiction, 629 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 5: is the argument. And so those who are against birthright 630 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 5: citizenships say, subject of the jurisdiction means that your parents 631 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 5: owed loyalty to the United States as opposed to some 632 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 5: foreign country, and that would mean that illegal aliens if 633 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 5: they have a child here, that child is not a 634 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 5: sistant in the United States. Now, that's also there's a 635 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 5: problem with that. There's a couple problems that. One of 636 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 5: the problems of that argument is that nobody has ever 637 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 5: said that that's what it means. In the one hundred 638 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 5: and fifty years since this has been in the Constitution, 639 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 5: everybody has active like if you're born here, you're a 640 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 5: citizen all of that time. And so suddenly discovering that 641 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 5: we're at it turns out that we've been misreading the 642 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 5: Constitution for one hundred and fifty years would be a huge, 643 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 5: enormously radical transformation and how our system works. That would 644 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 5: cause tremendous disruption nationwide, and that would be a real problem. 645 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 5: But all of this, the real problem here in answering 646 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 5: this question is that when the amendment was adopted, there 647 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 5: were no such things as illegal aliens, because there were 648 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,239 Speaker 5: no laws against immigration, and that means if you're an 649 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,840 Speaker 5: originalist and you think the competition should be understood the 650 00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 5: way it was originally intended, the Framers didn't ever think 651 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 5: about this because it wasn't against the law back then, 652 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 5: So we don't know. 653 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 4: What they would have thought about this question right right well, 654 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 4: at the point that this enormously radical, disruptive president has overturned, 655 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 4: that's when you tag me and Tim and I come 656 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 4: in and explain to the good folks that look, the 657 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 4: nature of global transportation, the movement of people or peoples 658 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 4: from one place to another has changed so vastly. 659 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: Joe's a living constitution guy. You can hear it coming. 660 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 4: Out of what No, don't you dare know that the 661 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 4: very nature of comings and goings from countries has been 662 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 4: so radically transformed. 663 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: A Chinese national with not the slightest. 664 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 4: Notion of making life in the United States can can 665 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 4: depart China, arrive here, give birth, go back to China, 666 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 4: all in the span of. 667 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:54,959 Speaker 1: Seventy two hours. 668 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 3: I'm inducing labor in this case, probably getting very lucky, 669 00:32:58,680 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 3: and that. 670 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: Child had citizenship. 671 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 4: That's the eventuality unimaginable back in the day. 672 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 5: Is the kids I think that that's sort of true. 673 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 5: But on the other hand, the Chinese question came up 674 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 5: back then because there were so many Chinese in California 675 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 5: in the eighteen sixties, and senators rasked, well, isn't this 676 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 5: going to make the children of the Chinese immigrants who 677 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 5: back then did not intend to sty in the United States. 678 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 5: They intended to go back to China. The senator's rast, 679 00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 5: does this make their kids us? Senator US citizens? And 680 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 5: the senator from California said yes, and then he was 681 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,280 Speaker 5: immediately thrown out of office. So what does that mean? 682 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:33,600 Speaker 5: Nobody knows what that. 683 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: Means a single case from eighteen ninety eight, or is 684 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 3: there more precedent? 685 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 5: Really, there really isn't. There's really just a handful of 686 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,720 Speaker 5: presidents and no Supreme Court case has ever said that 687 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 5: birthright citizenship is the is in the Constitution. There have 688 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 5: been some that have kind of mentioned it or kind 689 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 5: of assumed it, but none has said so outright. 690 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 4: I am surprised the polling shows that only about a 691 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 4: third of Americans want to do away with the way 692 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 4: we do it now. I'm surprised by that. I do 693 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,720 Speaker 4: want to get this. This is a journalistic question. But 694 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 4: I think it has an effect on people's respect for 695 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,720 Speaker 4: the law. It has come up recently. It has become 696 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 4: a pattern that anytime the media mentions a judge, they 697 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 4: mentioned what president appointed them. Do you think that's a 698 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,320 Speaker 4: good idea or not? They didn't just barely got a minute. 699 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 5: I think I think it's fine. I think people should 700 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 5: know where these For instance, I think it would help 701 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 5: a lot of judges. You know, a lot of Republican 702 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 5: appointed judges have been ruling against the Trump administration, and 703 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 5: I think it would be helpful for people to know 704 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 5: that these questions are not things where it's all partisan. 705 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,759 Speaker 5: The law is not just partisan politics. It's something much 706 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 5: more profound and much more important. 707 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I. 708 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: Agree, But it implies that judges I don't know. 709 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 4: True. 710 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 5: I didn't used to think. 711 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: I didn't used to think about it. Ever. 712 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 4: If a judge ruled, I just thought, all, that's interesting, 713 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 4: Now it's all who appointed him? 714 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: Oh of course he said that. That is true. 715 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 5: That is a risk, But I think we should err 716 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 5: on the side of informing people as opposed to keeping 717 00:34:58,360 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 5: people in the dark. 718 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: So that's always Trump. 719 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 3: Tim Sander for the Goldwater Institute On the Line, Tim 720 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 3: final question, I've called for a monarchy. 721 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: You in favor of it? Yes or no? 722 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 5: No, I'm against him monarchy. I'm for the constitution, Joe. 723 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 4: One more question. As a published poet, I was thinking 724 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,240 Speaker 4: about this. Yesterday he won the Nobel Prize. Bob Dylan 725 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 4: good poet or not lousy poet? 726 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 5: Now read Robert Hayden or Richard Wilbur instead. 727 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 3: Hmm, how about Ringo Star Octopus's Garden was creative? 728 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: Tim, It's always great and enlightening. Thanks Millian for the time. 729 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: Let's talk again soon. Thanks guys. 730 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,600 Speaker 4: All right, I was actually thinking about this listening to 731 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 4: Dylan lyrics. Why do they stick in everybody's head so much? 732 00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,600 Speaker 4: Why do people keep going back to them? 733 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: If it's just. 734 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 4: Gobbledegook, like a lot of real poets claim, it can't be. 735 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 4: It wouldn't lodge, It wouldn't it wouldn't make the market made, 736 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 4: would it? 737 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 5: All? 738 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: Right? 739 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,760 Speaker 3: He was famously moody about his career and his music 740 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 3: in his Life's Philosophy. I think some of his stuff 741 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: is absolutely brilliant, and I think some of it's gobbledegook. 742 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: Hum. 743 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 4: Maybe maybe more on that another day, or maybe not. 744 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 4: We got plenty of stuff to tell you. I hope 745 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 4: you can stick around if you missus, Sigmann, I thought 746 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:17,359 Speaker 4: that Tim thing was really, really good, and you want 747 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 4: to listen to it again. Get the podcast Armstrong You 748 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:20,240 Speaker 4: Getty on demand 749 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 5: Armstrong and Getty