Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're discussing why you should be saving less
Speaker 1: and just keep buying with Nick m Julie. That's right.
Speaker 1: Our guest today is Nick m Julie UH and Nick
Speaker 1: he's the chief operating officer for Rienholtz Wealth Management. He
Speaker 1: writes weekly on a site of dollars in data. But
Speaker 1: he wasn't always a finance UH and investing savant. Before that,
Speaker 1: he was a litigation consultant, which honestly doesn't even seem fair.
Speaker 1: Some folks just get all of the brains. But even
Speaker 1: though Nick he's had a heart for personal finance, it's
Speaker 1: only been in the past five years or so that
Speaker 1: he actually started seriously writing about money. And his new book,
Speaker 1: Just Keep Buying It actually comes out tomorrow. We were
Speaker 1: lucky enough to get an early copy and it is fantastic. Nick.
Speaker 1: We'se insightful stories with actionable advice that is gonna it's
Speaker 1: gonna help anyone who reads it. We can guarantee that
Speaker 1: we're excited to talk about the book much more today. Nick,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today on the podcast. Appreciate
Speaker 1: that man. Thanks Joel for having me on. Yeah, we're
Speaker 1: glad to have you Nick, And yeah, we've been reading
Speaker 1: your block for a couple of years now at least,
Speaker 1: and it's it's definitely one of those that we go
Speaker 1: back to every single Tuesday when it drops. Um. So
Speaker 1: the first question that we ask anybody who comes on
Speaker 1: the show is, you know, Matt and I we like
Speaker 1: to drink craft beer. Everybody knows that by now, but
Speaker 1: it's something that we splurge on right now while we're
Speaker 1: saving for the future and investing. Well, um, do you
Speaker 1: have something like that? What do you like to splurge on?
Speaker 1: I know you live in New York City. Is it
Speaker 1: just trying to find the best burger every week? Or
Speaker 1: what's your big splurge. I think my splurges restaurants, Like
Speaker 1: I like going to nice restaurant. It is burgers. It's
Speaker 1: more like dry age rib. I Like, that's really my splurge,
Speaker 1: you know. So I'm I'm a little more fancy on
Speaker 1: that bar. But yeah, outside of that, like I'll admit
Speaker 1: I'm a little bougie when it comes to restaurants, Like
Speaker 1: I I'll buy like eight dollar you know, v Nex
Speaker 1: from Amazon. But then if I go to a nice restaurant, Like,
Speaker 1: I have no problem you know, spending spending good money there,
Speaker 1: especially post COVID, Like I really support the rest of history.
Speaker 1: So do you feel like you're missing out on that
Speaker 1: splurge during COVID? Obviously a lot of restaurants in New
Speaker 1: York were able to kind of do the outdoor service,
Speaker 1: but there's only so many months that you can do
Speaker 1: that without freezing your tail off. Yeah, I mean that
Speaker 1: one of the reasons people live here is for like
Speaker 1: that's like, you know why. It's like I used to cook,
Speaker 1: so I cooked a lot basically, you know, and the
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I live here is because, like
Speaker 1: you know, I could cook, but I just it's not
Speaker 1: going to compare to the chefs and all the people
Speaker 1: that are cooking here. They're just so much better at it.
Speaker 1: It's like, why would I do that when I like food.
Speaker 1: I'm a big foodie. So for me, it's like I'd
Speaker 1: rather just go to restaurants. So yeah, it was not
Speaker 1: the greatest during that period, but you know, and just
Speaker 1: cook for myself and kind of went from there. So yeah,
Speaker 1: if if you give Nick a follow on Instagram, you
Speaker 1: can see his occasional plate of whatever it is that
Speaker 1: he's eating. Usually jealous and I see the post see
Speaker 1: at the different restaurants. But obviously you also post a
Speaker 1: lot about money, and that's what we're talking about today,
Speaker 1: Nick Um and specifically, you know, you begin the new
Speaker 1: book talking about your your grandfather, your grandpa who was
Speaker 1: addicted to gambling. Can you talk about that something like
Speaker 1: was was that one of your earliest money memories? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And so I don't like remember him like I actually
Speaker 1: never remember seeing him like in the casino or anything
Speaker 1: like that. I was very young, but we um he
Speaker 1: would do that, and I've heard stories from my father.
Speaker 1: There's a lot it's a lot worse than what I
Speaker 1: painted it out to be, like stuff where like he
Speaker 1: would like after he ran the money. I heard he
Speaker 1: used to like beg people at the casinos for more money.
Speaker 1: Just really just it's he had a he had a sickness,
Speaker 1: he really did, and it was it's unfortunate, you know,
Speaker 1: to to know that. And you know, he was a
Speaker 1: very good man. He was. He was a churchgoer, love,
Speaker 1: you know, very religious and everything. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: like he had his he had his demons, and I
Speaker 1: was gambling unfortunately. But um I really saw it. I
Speaker 1: mean we would we go to the you know, I
Speaker 1: was a child go to horse races and stuff, and
Speaker 1: so that was me. I was. I like, because I
Speaker 1: was seeing a little horses runner. I had no idea
Speaker 1: it was all about gambling and money or any that, right.
Speaker 1: But so for me, most of those memories I just
Speaker 1: enjoyed because I was with my father r and like
Speaker 1: we would go to the county, the Pomona County Fair
Speaker 1: right in southern California, and or the l A County Fair.
Speaker 1: Sorry it's some Pomona and we would just wash the
Speaker 1: horse races. In my grandfather they will be gambling or whatever.
Speaker 1: I didn't think anything of it, you know at the time.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he just gambled like his whole life. And
Speaker 1: like I said, I calculated it. When you see in
Speaker 1: the book, it's a lot of money that he gave away, right,
Speaker 1: you know, my father and I sat down, like he's
Speaker 1: gambling easily, over a million bucks easily, And it's kind
Speaker 1: of crazy to think about that. I understand that's a
Speaker 1: lot of money in itself, but like just thinking about
Speaker 1: what that could have done for, you know, whither our
Speaker 1: family or for he could have donated some of that whatever.
Speaker 1: It was, like, there's just a lot of money that
Speaker 1: was you know, it was just spend frivolously in my opinion, Right,
Speaker 1: do you do you feel like that that had an
Speaker 1: impact on you, like kind of in your earlier years
Speaker 1: and and certainly you know, I think kind of like
Speaker 1: our teen years is when we start to develop opinions
Speaker 1: and realize things about our past that start to shape us.
Speaker 1: Do you do you feel like that had an impact
Speaker 1: on you as you begin to grow up? Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: I never I never gamble. I've never gambled a single dollar.
Speaker 1: Like in my life. The only thing I've ever done
Speaker 1: is like I've done like poker game with my friends
Speaker 1: or something. But that's more like for the soul, paying
Speaker 1: the fifty bucks is like a social thing. It's not
Speaker 1: like I look at losing the money. I'm not like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm gonna come out of here and
Speaker 1: make I just take it as an l and just
Speaker 1: go in there and have fun. So um. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it affects just how you think about money
Speaker 1: and you realize like and then once once I started
Speaker 1: learning probability, and like, oh you know when you're gambling,
Speaker 1: there's a negative what we call expected value, like you're
Speaker 1: expected to lose money per play on average over the
Speaker 1: course of your lifetime. Right, So once you learn that,
Speaker 1: then you're like, oh, no, wonder, like this is how
Speaker 1: all these fancy casinos were built, you know. And I
Speaker 1: really love Vegas as a kid because if you're in
Speaker 1: southern California and you don't have a lot of money,
Speaker 1: your vacation is you go to Vegas. Right. It's a
Speaker 1: four hour drive, you do it, and that's like your vacation. Right.
Speaker 1: So I used to go to Vegas. Line is love that,
Speaker 1: you know. I was a little kid. I wasn't gambling
Speaker 1: or anything. I was like just love the lights and
Speaker 1: the casinos and how fun. It wasn't very family oriented
Speaker 1: in the early nineties, so um for me, it was
Speaker 1: like that's where we went a lot. And so I
Speaker 1: love that stuff. And now I know what how those
Speaker 1: casinos got built, you know, people like my grandfather gambling. Unfortunately. Well,
Speaker 1: thank thanks for sharing that, and yeah it does kind
Speaker 1: of it sets up your book in an interesting way.
Speaker 1: And but the main topic in your book you're really
Speaker 1: that you're really trying to combat, is that you know,
Speaker 1: when when you buy matters. We're talking about investing, right,
Speaker 1: and so, um, we were joking before we started recording
Speaker 1: that I don't think anybody has like spilled more ink
Speaker 1: when it comes to the topic of buying the dip
Speaker 1: than you Nick on your blog. Um. But yeah, let's
Speaker 1: talk about like kind of timing the market a little
Speaker 1: bit and and why is why is that something like
Speaker 1: if you go on personal finance Twitter, you're gonna see
Speaker 1: a lot of people like, you know, the markets down
Speaker 1: two percent today by the dip, and you kind of
Speaker 1: think that that's just um nonsense. So yeah, tell us,
Speaker 1: tell us why you're kind of against that mentality. I
Speaker 1: think the whole issue is buying the dip. And I
Speaker 1: mean this this is I mean you're discussing the book
Speaker 1: I've written on this is basically like, if you have
Speaker 1: cash to buy the dip, that means you were you
Speaker 1: had all this excess like investable cash that is right
Speaker 1: sitting on the sidelines, not earning you anything, and you're
Speaker 1: waiting for this dip to happen. No, two percent dips
Speaker 1: are small to happen all the time, you know, so
Speaker 1: that's nothing major. But most of the time as you're
Speaker 1: waiting for this dip, and if it never shows up,
Speaker 1: you end up sitting in cash for a very long time. So,
Speaker 1: you know, I think it's more of like the by
Speaker 1: the dip movement is more of like a cultural thing
Speaker 1: in an actual great investment strategy. I think it's funny
Speaker 1: um itself. But I mean, if you're sitting I'm saying,
Speaker 1: if you're sitting a lot of cash, I'm waiting for
Speaker 1: the next big tempercent dip. Statistically, by the time that
Speaker 1: dip comes, you're gonna be buying higher than when you
Speaker 1: bought when you could have bought originally. And I think
Speaker 1: a good example of this is I remember I was writing,
Speaker 1: you know when I wrote, I actually wrote a post
Speaker 1: called just keep Buying. You know, it's literally gonna come out,
Speaker 1: so five years to the day of when I wrote
Speaker 1: that post in April, five years later, the book comes
Speaker 1: out very ironic, right, It just because perfect It's funny
Speaker 1: because the book was that my book is actually was
Speaker 1: coming in February, but because the supply chain crisis, there
Speaker 1: was on paper all the stuff that happened. You so
Speaker 1: has kind of all that stuff you got affected everything
Speaker 1: because of that. It got pushed two months and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's weird. And then I looked I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: that's the exact same day, like perfect, Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 1: Your books all the ever, given it was probably stuck
Speaker 1: on that. Yeah. Um So basically, like I wrote that
Speaker 1: five years ago, and people then were like, markets are
Speaker 1: over value, this is crazy. You can't be buying since then,
Speaker 1: the markets up has double basics, right, And even if
Speaker 1: you're the craziest part, even if you had the foresight
Speaker 1: to know, hey, mar is gonna be the biggest dip
Speaker 1: we've had in the last you know, decade, I'm gonna wait.
Speaker 1: So even if you had waited since I wrote that post,
Speaker 1: you know, or beginning of twenty seventeen, and you had
Speaker 1: waited until March and you had bought, then you still
Speaker 1: would have purchased at a seven percent higher price on
Speaker 1: the lowest day during the biggest crash we've had in
Speaker 1: the last decade than if you had just bought at
Speaker 1: the beginning of seventeen, like I originally said. So, of
Speaker 1: course that's not always gonna happen, right, If you had
Speaker 1: bought in twenty nineteen, you would have been better to wait.
Speaker 1: But you're not gonna know when the bottom is. You're
Speaker 1: not going to know how Like this is a ridiculous
Speaker 1: Like I'm already setting up the premise as being a
Speaker 1: ridiculous you know, a statement in itself right, And the
Speaker 1: fact it's like if you knew the future, Like, if
Speaker 1: you knew the future, you would have like underperformed. It
Speaker 1: would have been suboptimal to wait that long. You could
Speaker 1: have just bought earlier. You know, So if you knew
Speaker 1: the future, you wouldn't have bought that final Combrady touchdown football,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, a couple of quotes that you give
Speaker 1: when you're talking about that in the book, you say,
Speaker 1: buy investments like you buy food, which I think is
Speaker 1: just like a really good way to think about it.
Speaker 1: And then you go on to say, even God couldn't
Speaker 1: beat dollar cost averaging. And it's like, you know, and
Speaker 1: when we talk about dollar cost averaging, can you can
Speaker 1: you define that for us and maybe just kind of yeah,
Speaker 1: give your thoughts on just like doing it consistently and
Speaker 1: why that's just the best route to go. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: the I have a little bit of a uh beef
Speaker 1: with the term dollar cost averaging, not in a bad way,
Speaker 1: but because there's technically there are two definitions when people
Speaker 1: say dollar cost averaging, there's there's two different forms of
Speaker 1: dollar cost averaging, right, the dollar cost averaging and I support,
Speaker 1: which is like you're just buying consistently with as you
Speaker 1: get money. So basically, if you're buying your four one
Speaker 1: K every two weeks or whatever every once a month,
Speaker 1: that's call I consider that dollar cost averaging. But we're
Speaker 1: really doing is you're taking a small lumps some payment
Speaker 1: putting it in every time. The other definition, which a
Speaker 1: lot of people use as well, is like let's say
Speaker 1: you just sold a company and you have a million
Speaker 1: bucks or something. You've gotta inherit in some hundred thousand
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Instead of putting that a hundred thousand
Speaker 1: dollars into the market right now, you slowly average into
Speaker 1: the market. So I'm very specific in the book. I
Speaker 1: call that averaging in versus dollar cost averaging because it's
Speaker 1: very confusing. When we say dollar cost averaging, people mean
Speaker 1: two different things. So when I talk about dollar cost average,
Speaker 1: I'm just talking about just buying over time. It's like,
Speaker 1: just keep buying. They're basically the same thing. I just
Speaker 1: think the branding of just keep buying is a little
Speaker 1: bit better and there's less syllables, so that's helpful. Marketing matters, Yeah, marketing,
Speaker 1: any marketing matters, and so to say dollar cost averaging,
Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense. But just keep buying a
Speaker 1: little bit clearer, and that's basically just rebranding that and
Speaker 1: trying to show with data why that's true. But um
Speaker 1: so I believe in. It's just like you're buying over time,
Speaker 1: and generally most markets you know, across the planet go
Speaker 1: up over time. There are are there a course exceptions.
Speaker 1: I know them all. Don't worry. You know you're gonna
Speaker 1: be like, what about Crease and you know, oh eight,
Speaker 1: I know about that. What about Russia in the last
Speaker 1: two months it went down? I know about that. But Spain,
Speaker 1: see yeah, I know, like Japan, like I trust me.
Speaker 1: I've known them all. I've studied them, I study the nightmares.
Speaker 1: They they happen, but they're rare. And so most markets,
Speaker 1: most of the time, is across the world generally go up.
Speaker 1: So if you're diversified investor, you'll probably do find even
Speaker 1: if you have a couple of markets that don't do
Speaker 1: as well. So that's kind of the main main theory
Speaker 1: of owning assets. If you're betting on that downside too,
Speaker 1: like and you then it's it's less about like when
Speaker 1: to put money in, and it's more like you should
Speaker 1: be putting your money towards a root seller and non
Speaker 1: perishable foods, right, yeah, exactly, Ken Goods, guns and ammo. Yeah. Right, Well,
Speaker 1: one of the alternatives to investing, nick is just taking
Speaker 1: that money and sticking it in the bank. So we
Speaker 1: kind of wanted to talk about savings here for a
Speaker 1: second because in your book, chapter one, it's subtitled why
Speaker 1: saving is for the poor and investing is for the rich,
Speaker 1: and then you follow up in chapter two saying that
Speaker 1: you should be saving less than you think. And so, yeah,
Speaker 1: I talk to us a little bit about your essentially
Speaker 1: your disdain we're saving money. I would say, there's a sting.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Okay, I caught it loud and clear. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. So when I say savings, let's there's a
Speaker 1: lot there to impact. So when I say savings for
Speaker 1: the poor, investing is for the rich. Um, you'll you'll
Speaker 1: see in the first chapter it's that is a relative statement,
Speaker 1: that is not an absolute statement. So when I say,
Speaker 1: savings for the poor, you have to like every person,
Speaker 1: I basically create this idea called the save invest continuum,
Speaker 1: and everyone is on this continuum, like, regardless of you know,
Speaker 1: what they're doing their financial life, everyone's on the continum.
Speaker 1: You gotta figre out where you are. And the question
Speaker 1: is like, Okay, how much money can you save in
Speaker 1: the next year. That's like a dollar amount. Let's see,
Speaker 1: you could save you know, five hundred bucks a month
Speaker 1: over the next twelve months. Okay, six grand? Okay. The
Speaker 1: other option is okay, how much money can my investments
Speaker 1: earn me in the next year. So let's say you
Speaker 1: have twenty grand invested and you own and you're gonna
Speaker 1: get you know, five percent here, let's say, right, that's
Speaker 1: a thousand bucks. Remember you could save six grand or
Speaker 1: your investments can earn you a thousand. So it sounds
Speaker 1: like what you need to do is you need to
Speaker 1: get your investments to earn you more. Right, they need
Speaker 1: to earn you more money. You want to remember trying
Speaker 1: to move to more passive income. You're trying to become
Speaker 1: financially free. All of that is like moving money from
Speaker 1: one calling to the other. You want, you want more
Speaker 1: investment income. To do that, you have to save more
Speaker 1: money and you have to invest that money, right, And
Speaker 1: so savings for the poor is like when you're relatively
Speaker 1: poorer or when you're like younger, especially, you're not gonna
Speaker 1: have much investment income, so you need to focus on
Speaker 1: your savings and you just spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: thinking about how to save money whether and I think
Speaker 1: that's really gonna come from income, but you're gonna save money,
Speaker 1: get invested that, and then over time that's gonna build
Speaker 1: and you're gonna start earning a lot more from your investments.
Speaker 1: So that's one piece of that. So I'm gonna I
Speaker 1: want to say savings for the poor investings for the rich.
Speaker 1: By the time you're like have a lot of money
Speaker 1: coming in from investments, Like basically the rich have to
Speaker 1: care a lot more about their investments because their savings
Speaker 1: can't affect like their lifestyle as much anymore. You know,
Speaker 1: like like like Elon must savings rate has no impact
Speaker 1: on his lifestyle. Yeah, it's like, oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: need to you know, cut out my spending here, Like no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. It's all about what happens to Tesla
Speaker 1: and all the other investments, right, like seven houses and he,
Speaker 1: you know, got like a hundred thirty million. I'm like,
Speaker 1: that means nothing, man, Yeah, exactly. So I'm saying I
Speaker 1: can use extreme examples, like someone that has no money,
Speaker 1: all that matters to them is how much they can save,
Speaker 1: Like they can have the greatest investment portfolio in the world,
Speaker 1: but thousand dollars to invest it's irrelevant, right, So that's
Speaker 1: that's that point, right, So that those are obviously on
Speaker 1: the extremes, it's very obvious for most of us were
Speaker 1: not on those extremes, are probably somewhere closer to the middle.
Speaker 1: And so you have to figure out where you are
Speaker 1: and where you spend your attention. I, for example, I
Speaker 1: have to spend time on both. Right, I'm at a
Speaker 1: point now where, like you know, I can I basically
Speaker 1: can save as much as my investments earn me. But
Speaker 1: like there's a really bad year in the market, like
Speaker 1: on paper, I will lose more than I could save
Speaker 1: in a year, you know, So and that really depends, right,
Speaker 1: And that's kind of scary. But that's where you have
Speaker 1: to think about both of them, right, And most people
Speaker 1: you should see that early on. You shouldn't spend that
Speaker 1: much time on your investments in terms of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I get them, you know, figure out what to invest in,
Speaker 1: buy some stuff, low cost index funds, et cetera, but
Speaker 1: don't obsess over them. What you should be obsessing over
Speaker 1: is your career and other things you can do to
Speaker 1: earn more money. That's what I think you should be
Speaker 1: obsessing over when you're young. As you get older, you
Speaker 1: can care less about that and more about your investments.
Speaker 1: I was just like, can we talk about growing the income,
Speaker 1: because that's something you talk about a lot too, right,
Speaker 1: is is you do talk about making more money, earning
Speaker 1: more money, and how frugality maybe is even like overdone.
Speaker 1: Maybe we talked about that too much in the personal
Speaker 1: finance space. And and how growing the you know, how
Speaker 1: much you're bringing home every single month, every single year,
Speaker 1: How maybe that's even even more important. Yes, I think
Speaker 1: if you if you look at the data from the
Speaker 1: Bureau Labor Statistics, basically you just like look at, okay,
Speaker 1: how much if you look at the bottom of households,
Speaker 1: like they spend more than their income than they bring in, right,
Speaker 1: and you look at like actually put the amounts in
Speaker 1: there here, what wuch they spending rent here, they spending food, etcetera.
Speaker 1: The amounts aren't ridiculous. These people aren't living these lavish lifestyles.
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, you know why if they just
Speaker 1: cut their spending, they would be rich. Like it's not true.
Speaker 1: It's just the data is not there. It's just a
Speaker 1: lot of these people, like how they spend more than income.
Speaker 1: Will they take out debt and that's how consumer credit
Speaker 1: card debt and different types of debt, or they borrow
Speaker 1: from friends or something. There's debt there. Right, it's the
Speaker 1: only way it can be done. You know. Obviously the
Speaker 1: bottom households changes over time. Some of those people are
Speaker 1: college students. They'll get jobs later. Some have a low
Speaker 1: paying job, I get a higher paying job. Right. People
Speaker 1: are always moving out of you know, where they are
Speaker 1: in life. But if you look at the data, like spending,
Speaker 1: cutting spending works a little bit um, but for most people,
Speaker 1: it's not going to be the way you build wealth.
Speaker 1: Like like I love the examples like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: like look at these celebrities like you know, Lindsay lohand
Speaker 1: or um Nicholas Cage. All these people like went bankrupt
Speaker 1: are almost bankrupt multiple times because of all they're spending.
Speaker 1: It's like it's all about spending. It's like, yeah, you
Speaker 1: have like five or six or maybe even ten examples
Speaker 1: of celebrities and bankrupt, But like, what data do I have?
Speaker 1: I have every other celebrity. Every other celebrity is not bankrupt,
Speaker 1: Like why because they have high income? So like, yes,
Speaker 1: if you have really bad spending habits, like yes, you can,
Speaker 1: you know, get into ruin. But for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: it's income. Really, it's income that's driving that. And I
Speaker 1: think the data is pretty clear, right, And so like
Speaker 1: a lot of the arguments I try to make is
Speaker 1: based on what I know and not like what we assume.
Speaker 1: Like like we can be like, oh, you know what
Speaker 1: the Rock you know how he's so rich because he
Speaker 1: has a great money mindset. It's like, no, the Rocks
Speaker 1: rich because he has an incredible income. And I can
Speaker 1: tell you that there's his money mindset might be average
Speaker 1: at best. We have no idea, but what we do
Speaker 1: know is he has a high income. Right, And so
Speaker 1: that's a lot of my arguments like what's actually true
Speaker 1: that we know versus like what's assumed about people. That's
Speaker 1: like why I'm kind of I'm not against frugality at all. Obviously,
Speaker 1: some people are just like that. Like even now when
Speaker 1: I go to the McDonald's, I still hold off the
Speaker 1: dollar menu even though I can afford, because like I
Speaker 1: did that with my father, and I still order off
Speaker 1: the dollar when you're like it's a weird thing, Like
Speaker 1: I always did because like we didn't have a lot
Speaker 1: of money, and so I was like, oh, yeah, you
Speaker 1: always order off the dollar ring. So to this day,
Speaker 1: I still get like the mcdouble and the chicken and
Speaker 1: all that stuff, like wait till they start having some
Speaker 1: of that dry aged steak, the dry age McRib but
Speaker 1: that and so, and then getting back to one quick
Speaker 1: question earlier, you were talking about like, oh, do I
Speaker 1: have a disdain for savings? And I just need to
Speaker 1: look at some of the data. They're like, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people save too much. I mean only
Speaker 1: one in six retirees are drawing down principle, which is
Speaker 1: kind of shocking, but like from so security and everything else,
Speaker 1: like if you have money like in these accounts, so
Speaker 1: many people end up their assets grow as they retire,
Speaker 1: and you're like, what should you be spending your money to?
Speaker 1: Everyone talks about using the four percent rule spending your
Speaker 1: money down. You look at the data, most people aren't
Speaker 1: doing that. Like most people take their rm d s
Speaker 1: and they just reinvested. Their wealth is growing over time.
Speaker 1: I mean, Michael Kitty's at this thing where it's like
Speaker 1: your wealth is is just as likely to four rex
Speaker 1: as it is to go to zero. Like that's how like,
Speaker 1: that's how crazy it is, Like they're equally likely, you know,
Speaker 1: for someone who's using the whatever, the four percent rule
Speaker 1: or some some rule like that. So I'm just like,
Speaker 1: it's not that I'm against saving. I just think I
Speaker 1: know people that are doing very well and they they're
Speaker 1: acting like they are not doing well at all. And
Speaker 1: I think if the data you realize just like how
Speaker 1: fortunate so many people are. And like, I think people
Speaker 1: obsess over too much. Yeah, I know, I I agree,
Speaker 1: especially as you start to build more wealth, it can
Speaker 1: be difficult to get out of that mindset, right, And
Speaker 1: that's the problem that those retirees are dealing with. They
Speaker 1: have spent their entire lives going in one direction and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden they have to kind of on
Speaker 1: a dime switch, like like, how are you supposed to
Speaker 1: go from from ford like even going forward your entire life,
Speaker 1: and now you got to flip it into reverse. The
Speaker 1: you know, the backup beap starts beeping and you feel
Speaker 1: like that something is wrong, like mental gymnastics to start
Speaker 1: drawing down on the funds you've been u investing in
Speaker 1: saving up for you know, four plus decades. That's that's so,
Speaker 1: that's a big reason why here on the show, I mean,
Speaker 1: we often talk about finding balance in our lives even
Speaker 1: when we are most clearly in that wealth building stage,
Speaker 1: but like you still have to incorporate some little splurges,
Speaker 1: whether that's craft beer, whether that's right age stake and Nick,
Speaker 1: we're actually going to talk about some of the different
Speaker 1: ways that we can spend our money, some of the
Speaker 1: ways it can maybe be healthy, but some of the
Speaker 1: ways too that it could lead to our financial downfall.
Speaker 1: And we'll get to all of those questions right after
Speaker 1: this break. All right, we're back in the break still
Speaker 1: talking with Nick Majulie. We're talking about why you should
Speaker 1: save less money because saving is for dummies and you
Speaker 1: should just keep buying. I'm I'm putting lords in your mouth.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Nick, You're you're not saying that, and I
Speaker 1: know I appreciate it. We just keep buying everything else
Speaker 1: that can restrict redacted from the record consulting terms. So no,
Speaker 1: I I think that the nuance you provided there is
Speaker 1: is really helpful. And and you know what you're talking
Speaker 1: about two is basically maximizing the enjoyment of your dollars.
Speaker 1: And I think it's a great way to think about it.
Speaker 1: And you know what Matt was alluding to, how, you know,
Speaker 1: we we want people to strike balance in the here
Speaker 1: and now while they're being smart with their money. And
Speaker 1: that's something maybe or one of the criticisms that we've
Speaker 1: had of the fire movement over the years is there
Speaker 1: can be this nose to the grindstone for ten, twelve,
Speaker 1: fifteen years to reach this one goal and you're burned
Speaker 1: out by the end of it, and it's really hard
Speaker 1: to shift gears. And so you should be enjoying along
Speaker 1: the way. Um, And so, yeah, what's your take on
Speaker 1: maybe a lot of the chatter in the personal finance
Speaker 1: space around deprivation and then yeah, talk to us about
Speaker 1: your views on guilt free spending. Yeah, so I think
Speaker 1: the biggest wake up call for me I think was
Speaker 1: co of it in a big way, not for me personally,
Speaker 1: but just from what I saw. Like, imagine, you know,
Speaker 1: you're six years old, you're out in the Alps, you
Speaker 1: know you maybe you're gonna retire in a year or two.
Speaker 1: You're like out, you know, somewhere in Italy on a vacation,
Speaker 1: and this new pandemic breaks out, you get it. You
Speaker 1: unfortunately pass away, and it's like you had your entire
Speaker 1: you know, twenty thirty years ahead of your retirement now gone, right,
Speaker 1: all this you did, all the saving and all that,
Speaker 1: and so think about just how tragic that is. And
Speaker 1: of course, like you're doing a vacation, you're spending your money.
Speaker 1: Obviously it's good, right, So, but I think there's a
Speaker 1: lot of people that are just setting up this thing
Speaker 1: of like, okay, like I expect to live to be
Speaker 1: eighty nine or whatever. You have something, you run all
Speaker 1: these numbers and you expect all this stuff, and of
Speaker 1: course you should act as if you're going to get there,
Speaker 1: but at the same time need to be somewhat reasonable too,
Speaker 1: of like you're you're doing all this for something, like
Speaker 1: why are you saving your money? I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people just do it because that's what they see
Speaker 1: everyone else doing and they don't actually think about it,
Speaker 1: and they don't know like what am I saving for?
Speaker 1: What am I? What do I really care about? You know?
Speaker 1: And so for me, I think spending money personally just
Speaker 1: like figuring yourself out. I think it's really tough. I think,
Speaker 1: like even myself, like I wouldn't. I never really considered
Speaker 1: myself a foodie, like historically I would like someone asked me,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not a food but then I realized, like, I, oh,
Speaker 1: actually kind of am, Like I like trying new restaurants,
Speaker 1: like doing it like no wonder I live in New
Speaker 1: York City. It's like all these things you start to
Speaker 1: figure out about yourself. And so I think this is
Speaker 1: really more of an introspective thing. You have to think about,
Speaker 1: like what are you really doing this for? And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people don't really know because like, Okay,
Speaker 1: you want, oh I want free time to do whatever
Speaker 1: I want? My Okay, well, what's whatever you want? Okay?
Speaker 1: Let's say let's say I could I have a magic
Speaker 1: want I grant your free time? Right now? What are
Speaker 1: you gonna do all day? You know? I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what I do. I'd still be writing, I'd still be
Speaker 1: doing the same stuff. I'd still be wanting to probably
Speaker 1: work in the financial services firm. You know, I'd probably
Speaker 1: don't work with my firm. I like, I like trying
Speaker 1: to help people. I believe in our mission, like you know,
Speaker 1: so I think you have to figure that out. And
Speaker 1: once you figure that out, then spending the money is easy. Like, oh,
Speaker 1: I care about these things, so I'm willing to spend big,
Speaker 1: which is like why I love that question you I
Speaker 1: start every pod with it's like what are the things
Speaker 1: you like to support on? Because you're you're grounding in
Speaker 1: like do you know yourself? Really there's a question, yes,
Speaker 1: And so I think you guys both know what you
Speaker 1: guys like to spend money on. I'm like, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of your median I'm assuming he knows, Like
Speaker 1: you know, we were like spending money in a couple
Speaker 1: of categories. But figuring out those things I think is
Speaker 1: the most important. So UM, in terms of guilt free spending,
Speaker 1: UM one of the rules I like to use, and
Speaker 1: I think this is a very simple rule. It's just
Speaker 1: called the two X rule. And basically, if you're safe,
Speaker 1: if you want to splurge on something. Let's say I
Speaker 1: want to go out to like a really nice like
Speaker 1: um sushi tasting and oh macasa right, it's gonna be
Speaker 1: like two h fifty bucks a person. And so like,
Speaker 1: let's say I'm going on a date with this girl
Speaker 1: or something. We've been seeing each a little while. I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna go out. So I spend five dars on this.
Speaker 1: You're like, that's crazy, that's so much money. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: before I spend that, you know, let's say it was
Speaker 1: an anniversary dinner or something. Before I spend that, I'm
Speaker 1: going to save up another five dollars. I'm going to
Speaker 1: invest in the market, or I'm going to donate it
Speaker 1: or something like that. You save up additional two x
Speaker 1: what you're supposed to save so that when I spend
Speaker 1: that five hundred dollars, I don't feel guilty about it.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, you know what, Yes, I spent more
Speaker 1: than I probably should have normally, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: I invested somebody. So I'm doing something to kind of
Speaker 1: pay off my guilt basically, so you don't have And
Speaker 1: so I do this all the time, and I don't
Speaker 1: have guilt about how I spend money. I really dope
Speaker 1: and I used to, especially like when I was, you know,
Speaker 1: much younger, I used to feel guilty about I remember
Speaker 1: even I was at a music festival once and I
Speaker 1: didn't want like the beers were nine dollars because it's
Speaker 1: a music festival, you know, that's how it is, right,
Speaker 1: And I was like, I want to spend nine dollars
Speaker 1: on a beer. That's crazy. And I ended up not
Speaker 1: doing that, like we end up like doing it, you know.
Speaker 1: I was like, I was like, why did I do that?
Speaker 1: Like looking back now, it's like a regret at like
Speaker 1: I should just spent the nine dollars on a beer
Speaker 1: or whatever. But it's like thinking about that, it's like that.
Speaker 1: It was that mindset of not not kind of just hey,
Speaker 1: just enjoy the moment. It's just nine bucks, like that,
Speaker 1: how much is that nine dollars gonna change me? Now?
Speaker 1: Not at all. Yeah, in the moment, that's a really
Speaker 1: fun thing that you get to enjoy. And I agree,
Speaker 1: Like I was so frugal, especially in my early mid twenties,
Speaker 1: and I still like think frugality is a great thing
Speaker 1: and something we talked about here a lot on the show,
Speaker 1: because I do think that's an important part of the puzzle,
Speaker 1: especially when you're like broadcasting to a whole bunch of people,
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people need to know how to
Speaker 1: live more frugally, um, and there are specific ways to
Speaker 1: do that better. But at the same time, I had
Speaker 1: to realize, like, well, what am I saving this money for?
Speaker 1: What am I investing for the future? Four? And you
Speaker 1: have to be able to enjoy the here and now
Speaker 1: at the same time. And if you're not doing that,
Speaker 1: and if you feel guilty every time you try to
Speaker 1: spend money on something you enjoy, it almost like drags
Speaker 1: it down and makes it way less fun. Um. It's
Speaker 1: almost like it's just like a mental bummer, a big
Speaker 1: drag on the joy that you're trying to get from
Speaker 1: the money you have worked hard to earn. And so
Speaker 1: you have to find that balance and it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's not always easy, but I think it's something people
Speaker 1: should strive for. And I like your too actual because
Speaker 1: it does kind of allow people that mental freedom to
Speaker 1: enjoy the things that they actually do love while they're
Speaker 1: you know, while they're doing trying to you know, be
Speaker 1: smart with their money. Yeah, exactly, So that's that's what
Speaker 1: I say, and just focus on things that provide you fulfillment.
Speaker 1: So whatever that is. It's for some people. I think
Speaker 1: there's this whole like experience. There's a war on like
Speaker 1: buying material goods, and it's like, oh, you know, only
Speaker 1: experienced experiences. The data shows experiences. And don't get me wrong,
Speaker 1: I understand the data. I've seen it, and it looks
Speaker 1: like people prefer buying so any more experiences than good.
Speaker 1: But that's not true of everyone. I mean that's an
Speaker 1: average result. Like some people really like nice cars. I'm
Speaker 1: not one of them, so people do. And I think
Speaker 1: if you're one of those people, like, don't feel bad
Speaker 1: sporting on a nice car. If you're one of the
Speaker 1: people that likes a nice handbag, don't feel bad about
Speaker 1: that just because the data says, well, nine, you know,
Speaker 1: people prefer this. You might be an exception to that rule.
Speaker 1: So like, don't get me wrong, I love using data,
Speaker 1: relying on data, but it's not perfect. Remember it's only
Speaker 1: gonna get the average result, right. That's why experiences might
Speaker 1: be great for extroverts, and since most people are extroverted,
Speaker 1: that's gonna look great there but there's gonna be a
Speaker 1: small subset of the population that's much more introverted that
Speaker 1: won't get as much out of experiences in the same way.
Speaker 1: So you have to really know yourself. I think that's
Speaker 1: more important and then optimizing for that with your money
Speaker 1: versus like just taking what society says all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I is extroverted. Well there's as far as folks
Speaker 1: are willing to spend on experiences. And I mean, you're
Speaker 1: you're kind of getting at this nick but like, how
Speaker 1: would you recommend for somebody to ask themselves that question? Like,
Speaker 1: I mean, what we're talking about here is like serious
Speaker 1: like real soul searching essentially and to you know, for
Speaker 1: us to determine and to figure out what is it
Speaker 1: that bring brings us fulfillment? Like do you have any
Speaker 1: practical suggests for folks to determine that for themselves? I mean,
Speaker 1: this is a question that they've been asking for centuries
Speaker 1: and millennia. Realis is a philosophical in good life myself? Right?
Speaker 1: Like this is like you know, like stoicisms coming back
Speaker 1: with Seneca and all these philosophers, and it's like is
Speaker 1: he these are old ideas that we've been asking asking
Speaker 1: ourselves as humans for a long time, and so I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think the a lot of this is
Speaker 1: just like exploration, trying your things, seeing what you like,
Speaker 1: what you don't like, figuring out what systems work for
Speaker 1: you what doesn't. I mean, that's really it. So for me,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why I have generally lived in big cities,
Speaker 1: because like there's a lot of experiences, a lot of
Speaker 1: things you can try, and you figure out what you
Speaker 1: like and what you don't like. And that's kind of it, really,
Speaker 1: And if you never kind of explore certain things, you'll
Speaker 1: never know really And so of course you can't explore everything.
Speaker 1: It's it's impossible to explore every option. Like I've never
Speaker 1: lived in Atlanta, for all I know, that could be
Speaker 1: my favorite city in the world, right, Like I have
Speaker 1: no clue, you know, come on down. That's how I
Speaker 1: get myself invited down. But there's limits to this, obviously,
Speaker 1: but there's within that you know, you can still say, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I know I like this I don't like For example,
Speaker 1: I know I don't love driving. So it's gonna be
Speaker 1: really tough for me not to live in a place
Speaker 1: where I have to drive, you know, or an hour
Speaker 1: every day, you know, or something like that. So like
Speaker 1: just knowing yourself and knowing what you care about, like oh,
Speaker 1: just being able to like, you know, my gym is
Speaker 1: two blocks away, my grocery stores three blocks away. Like
Speaker 1: everything near me is a block or two away. And
Speaker 1: so for me, I care about just being able to
Speaker 1: walk to everything, and so like that's I value that
Speaker 1: so much. And so I don't have a car all
Speaker 1: that and I paper in rent. You pay, you're paying
Speaker 1: for it somehow. You've gotta figure out where you're paying
Speaker 1: for right So for just knowing what you want, I
Speaker 1: think is the key. So just I mean, spend time
Speaker 1: on it. There's no real there's no easy way. I
Speaker 1: wish I could be like, oh yeah, when I was
Speaker 1: twenty two and you know, I want three, I had
Speaker 1: no clue. It took me a decade to even get
Speaker 1: to hear. And I'm still learning every day. So it's
Speaker 1: a process. Yeah, Like it's not like one day you
Speaker 1: wake up the scales fall from your eyes and you're
Speaker 1: like I get it. I know it, Like it's all
Speaker 1: about right now, and so it is a yeah, it is, Uh,
Speaker 1: it takes time along on a continuum to find more
Speaker 1: and more what you're into. But I think part of
Speaker 1: the key is not just blindly or numbly doing what
Speaker 1: everyone else around you is doing. I think that is
Speaker 1: a pattern people fall into. Well, my neighbor Bill just
Speaker 1: got about I guess it's time for me to do
Speaker 1: something similar. Um and yeah, and and kind of really
Speaker 1: marching marching to your own drummers part of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And just to add onto that too, Nick, I mean,
Speaker 1: what I hear you saying is in what you're saying
Speaker 1: to Jill is that you don't have to like, don't
Speaker 1: beat yourself up right like, like you said, like, we're
Speaker 1: not going to get it right away. It takes a
Speaker 1: number of years to figure this thing out, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna make mistakes, you know, and we're gonna look back
Speaker 1: into our past and say that was that stupid. I
Speaker 1: can't believe I spent that much money on X on
Speaker 1: that car or literally still look back to when I
Speaker 1: bought a second Dreamcast from my friend growing up, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, what a waste of money? Because I did.
Speaker 1: I had really such an idiot played it for like
Speaker 1: three weeks, and I'm like, what if I had that
Speaker 1: hundred fifty bucks back and really like, those are the
Speaker 1: kind of things you don't know exactly. You don't know,
Speaker 1: and that's that's why you hear Nick saying though, is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think let it inform your future though this is
Speaker 1: this is informing my big takeaway from the end of
Speaker 1: the upset. But like, yeah, be willing to experiment here,
Speaker 1: and I appreciate what you're saying there, Nick, Yeah, And
Speaker 1: there's gonna be waste when you do that. There's gonna
Speaker 1: be waste. You know. It's like if I remember a
Speaker 1: friend who was like really into watches and he bought
Speaker 1: a bunch of different watches and then he only wears
Speaker 1: one now he like never wants the other one. I
Speaker 1: was like and it was like, oh, yeah, you waste
Speaker 1: all that money, But no, he figured out, oh, I
Speaker 1: just want I like this watch the best, and I
Speaker 1: don't like wearing it, and so you just got rid
Speaker 1: of the other one. So it's like, you're gonna there's
Speaker 1: gonna be waste involved in the process. You're not going
Speaker 1: to optimize it perfectly. Trust me, as someone who's like
Speaker 1: cares about optimization and like always thinking about that stuff,
Speaker 1: Like you have to just let it go. It's some
Speaker 1: costs that happened. So yep, yep, all right, well you
Speaker 1: already kind of uh, you've created one piece of financial
Speaker 1: personal finance heresy and kind of how you talked about
Speaker 1: savings for a second, but you you keep putting words
Speaker 1: I do, I do. I'm sorry, Nick, I'm sorry. He's
Speaker 1: never coming back on the show, and I don't. But
Speaker 1: you you share some some interesting thoughts on debt and
Speaker 1: why you actually mentioned that credit card debt isn't necessarily
Speaker 1: an awful thing, and so all right, I want to
Speaker 1: hear your reasoning behind that, because that is kind of
Speaker 1: a surprising take. I got your reasoning in the book,
Speaker 1: but can you guys share it with your our listeners. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think, and no trust me. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is a big preface. It's an exception based on it.
Speaker 1: So generally credit card debt is not a good thing.
Speaker 1: I will say that, And that's all obviously true. Most
Speaker 1: people know that already. Not everyone knows that, however, For example,
Speaker 1: let's say there's someone that has a thousand dollars in
Speaker 1: their checking account and they also have five dollars in
Speaker 1: credit card debt. Looking at this, you'd say, well, if
Speaker 1: you're paying art year on that credit card debt, you
Speaker 1: should just pay that off. Right, you have a thousand
Speaker 1: bucks cash, five bucks in credit card debt. You know
Speaker 1: you net that out, You're gonna have five dollars cash,
Speaker 1: no credit card debt. Isn't that better? Right? It's very obvious.
Speaker 1: The problem is in that particular example, it actually might
Speaker 1: make sense for that person to have credit card debt.
Speaker 1: What they're called in the academic literature is borrower savers
Speaker 1: because they're borrowing, yet they have cash that they could
Speaker 1: pay off their debt with. And the reason is, like
Speaker 1: it might be a liquidity issue. Let's say all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, a week later, they get hit with a
Speaker 1: you know, the car breaks down. They have to spend
Speaker 1: seven d dollars, right, and if they don't spend that
Speaker 1: seven ars, they can't get to work and they can't
Speaker 1: earn their money. So now, if they only had five
Speaker 1: hundred bucks, they can't do that now, But with five
Speaker 1: dollars in credit card and a thousand dollars they can.
Speaker 1: So it's a it's more of a liquidity problem. And
Speaker 1: so I think there's a lot of times where we
Speaker 1: make blanket claims in the personal finance space. And of course,
Speaker 1: remember this argument is obviously extreme. I know this in
Speaker 1: extreme argument, but I'm the point I'm trying to make
Speaker 1: is there's a lot of times we make blanket claims
Speaker 1: like debt is bad, or credit card debt is bad,
Speaker 1: or max for four own k, and we can get
Speaker 1: it all of that. A lot of these things are blanketed,
Speaker 1: and I think there's exceptions where they're not always true,
Speaker 1: and just to think about, like when do those exceptions exist?
Speaker 1: And you know, just just to I like to challenge
Speaker 1: like a lot of the fundamental principles and personal finance
Speaker 1: because I feel when everyone's saying the same thing over
Speaker 1: and over and over again, we need a question whether
Speaker 1: that's actually right. Once in a while. It's kind of
Speaker 1: goes back to first principles. I'm not saying like it's wrong.
Speaker 1: I think generally, yes, credit card debt is bad and
Speaker 1: you should not be racking up a ton of credit
Speaker 1: card debt. So like that's like to me, that's very obvious.
Speaker 1: But if someone has a thousand bucks and they have
Speaker 1: five dollars in credit card debt, if you're like, you
Speaker 1: know what, you should pay off that credit card first thing,
Speaker 1: maybe not, maybe get your emergency fund first and then
Speaker 1: consider paying off the credit card debt. Is it optimal
Speaker 1: mathematically No, but it's probably optimal from a risk perspective, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's like figuring out what are we actually
Speaker 1: solving for if we're trying to maximize dollars. Yes, you
Speaker 1: should pay off the credit card first, but there's a
Speaker 1: chance that you get hit with something and now you're
Speaker 1: even in a worst position than you were beforehand, right
Speaker 1: where you don't have liquidity and you can't pay for something,
Speaker 1: and now you lose your job, et cetera. Now you're
Speaker 1: really in a bad spot. So that's kind of the
Speaker 1: example I give. And I don't know how many of
Speaker 1: your listeners or in even something like that or even
Speaker 1: close to that, but it's just the point of thinking
Speaker 1: about this more critically, which I think is kind of
Speaker 1: lost in the personal finance space. Sometimes. Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 1: also just like some peace of mind right with cash
Speaker 1: on hand that comes along for people, and and so yeah,
Speaker 1: I think you're right. I think sometimes maybe um, we
Speaker 1: rushed because we've heard that blanket advice and and yet
Speaker 1: there is it's it's so tough to just give blanket
Speaker 1: advice to everyone, because um, there are so many specific
Speaker 1: nuances in situations. I think I don't know which our
Speaker 1: favorite favorite episodes are, but we love the listener Questions
Speaker 1: episodes because it gives us a chance to kind of
Speaker 1: take a more nuanced approach to a topic because we
Speaker 1: have a specific situation we're dealing with. And and you know,
Speaker 1: blanket advice doesn't apply. Always have the general first principles
Speaker 1: still hold, but in your case, let's tweak it a
Speaker 1: little bit because this is what it sounds like would be,
Speaker 1: you know, optimal for you. So all right, hey, Nick,
Speaker 1: We've got a few more questions we want to get
Speaker 1: to you for you, including mostly mostly about investing, and
Speaker 1: we'll touch on crypto as well. You left it out
Speaker 1: of your list of investable assets in your book, so
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about why you did that and more
Speaker 1: right after this break. Alright, we're back from the break.
Speaker 1: We're talking with Nick mc julie. His book Just Keep
Speaker 1: Buying is what we're discussing today. Um, and Nick, you know,
Speaker 1: like Joel mentioned, we want to talk about investing a
Speaker 1: little bit more specifically. Like one of the main questions
Speaker 1: that we get here on the show. Oftentimes it's for
Speaker 1: folks who want to save up for a big purchase,
Speaker 1: which usually means they're saving up for a down payment
Speaker 1: on their home. So, like everyone out there, they want
Speaker 1: sort of like a magic bullet answer when it comes
Speaker 1: to how they can grow their money without there being
Speaker 1: any risk. But what advice would you give for folks
Speaker 1: who are looking to purchase sometime soon? Yes, so if
Speaker 1: you're purchasing, I mean I looked at some of the
Speaker 1: data on this over you know, going back to like
Speaker 1: twenties in terms of like what returns are you've got
Speaker 1: if you had invested that money in bonds or in
Speaker 1: stocks while you're saving, etcetera. And generally, my my rule
Speaker 1: of thumb is that if if you're plan to do
Speaker 1: the purchase in the next three years, it should be
Speaker 1: in cash because I mean, most of the time, yes,
Speaker 1: it probably would have been better to be in bonds, like,
Speaker 1: but there's some risk involved. You may have to save
Speaker 1: a couple extra months in case, you know, something happens
Speaker 1: in bond prices crash in some way, right versus cash
Speaker 1: that's not really gonna happen. Yes, there's inflation, so that's
Speaker 1: why it generally takes a little like one month longer
Speaker 1: on average to save up for I don't know. Let's
Speaker 1: say you know grand then it would take if you're
Speaker 1: doing in bonds. So under a three year period, I say,
Speaker 1: use cash. You're doing three to five years, you know,
Speaker 1: I need to start having bonds or some other sort
Speaker 1: of instruments, and then five years beyond you might might
Speaker 1: have some stocks. Right, So that's kind of like the
Speaker 1: the go to way of thinking about it. I think
Speaker 1: it all comes down to risk, right, It's like what
Speaker 1: risk are you willing to take and win? And so
Speaker 1: that's why I generally recommend, you know, if you're saving
Speaker 1: up for something, just put it in cash. I know
Speaker 1: right now that's gonna be really scary because like while inflations,
Speaker 1: you know, seven point five percent or eight percent a year,
Speaker 1: and so it's like your cash is being eaten away
Speaker 1: and that sucks. But you know, you could be putting
Speaker 1: into something else where it's very risky. And so that's true.
Speaker 1: Now we don't know what the future is gonna hold
Speaker 1: because inflations a percent now, does that mean it's gonna
Speaker 1: be a percent next year or higher or lower? We
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know, so that's why I kind of
Speaker 1: go to is like use cash, okay, and when when
Speaker 1: we talk about just keep buying, like you you're basically
Speaker 1: a big fan of buying index funds, which you know,
Speaker 1: Matt and I we feel the same way. But why
Speaker 1: I want to hear your take on why you think
Speaker 1: they're best for most folks like UM, because yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a whole lot of things people can invest in, and
Speaker 1: index funds certainly simple, easy to understand, but yeah, why
Speaker 1: why do you think they're so great? I think low
Speaker 1: low cost index funds and ETFs are the way to
Speaker 1: go for most people because they're easy, they're generally cheap
Speaker 1: if you find the right ones. I'm not gonna put
Speaker 1: any names out there. There's plenty of providers that provide
Speaker 1: cheap exposure to UM, both US and international equities, UM
Speaker 1: and reads, which is real estate and many other assets. Right.
Speaker 1: You can get you can get farm land reads, you
Speaker 1: can get all sorts of exposure different asset classes for
Speaker 1: very cheap. And I like because it's just it's easy.
Speaker 1: I mean literally just go into a brokerage account. You know,
Speaker 1: you go into your your Schwab or your Chase, your whatever,
Speaker 1: et cetera. What our fidelity, whatever you have, you go
Speaker 1: in there and you just you know, put in the
Speaker 1: symbol and you buy it right as as as easy
Speaker 1: as it could be. You know, of course you can
Speaker 1: do that with mutual funds and other things. But I
Speaker 1: think the tax efficiency there's a lot of benefits that
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to get into all that
Speaker 1: right now, but like there's a lot of benefits to
Speaker 1: just low cost index ones that just makes it really easy.
Speaker 1: You're getting cheap diversification, and that is that's the key.
Speaker 1: Cheap diversification. Yeah, we like cheap especially. I mean again,
Speaker 1: I keep thinking about just my mind keeps going back
Speaker 1: to the conversation around frugality, and oftentimes it is such
Speaker 1: an important thing to keep in mind, especially early on
Speaker 1: when you aren't necessarily making a ton, but as your
Speaker 1: wealth grows over time, Like that's not something you need
Speaker 1: to pay much attention to, but it does. It is
Speaker 1: something you need to need to pay attention to as
Speaker 1: your portfolio grows as well, because when you start looking
Speaker 1: at expense ratios on large sums of money, that is
Speaker 1: some serious amount of money that can that you can
Speaker 1: be separated from over the years so you mentioned index funds.
Speaker 1: I also appreciate Nick how you share your single stock
Speaker 1: picks on Instagram. You you you highlight some of your you know,
Speaker 1: some of your stinker uh investments, for instance, Rent the Runway.
Speaker 1: Can you do you mind sharing a little bit about
Speaker 1: those and kind of how you view those individual companies
Speaker 1: like you gotta so I need. I don't have any
Speaker 1: relationship with these companies. Um So, for for the record,
Speaker 1: Chapter twelve is called don't buy individual stocks, and this
Speaker 1: is an example why so No I did this for funds.
Speaker 1: So I I own two individual stocks, and I'm not
Speaker 1: saying this to pump them. I'm not saying they're down badly.
Speaker 1: So they're down like sea, So I'm not worried about that.
Speaker 1: What I'm saying I own two individual stocks. One's Matterport,
Speaker 1: one's Rent the Runway. Matterport's like an augmented reality thing. Anyways,
Speaker 1: I don't recommend invidual stocks because I think it's very
Speaker 1: difficult to be performance wise and also you don't know
Speaker 1: if you're actually gonna be good at doing it. For
Speaker 1: like a professional standpoint, however, I put you know, one
Speaker 1: percent of my investable assets and into these two companies.
Speaker 1: So a very very small percent, you know, one percent
Speaker 1: of everything I own, so not risking the farm, so
Speaker 1: to speak. And I kind of talk about this in
Speaker 1: the book, but um, I got into Matterport because I
Speaker 1: had a bunch of friends getting into it, so we
Speaker 1: kind of did it as like a social thing and
Speaker 1: it was kind of a you know, a thing we
Speaker 1: laughed about and stuff, so it was like kind of cool,
Speaker 1: but also it's like an investment. And the other one
Speaker 1: rent the runway. I remember I was like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is my Peter Lynch moment. Like I remember my next
Speaker 1: girlfriend who was always using it, and this was like
Speaker 1: pre COVID, and I was like, as soon as the
Speaker 1: thing I po is, I'm gonna buy it, no matter
Speaker 1: what I know. Right now, COVID still happening, and like
Speaker 1: it's probably not the best time to buy it because
Speaker 1: people aren't going out again, but like, I'll just do
Speaker 1: it anyway. So I did. I put a little bit
Speaker 1: of money in there, and it's down badly. Both they're
Speaker 1: just getting crossed. So if anything, you know, even when
Speaker 1: you write a book or a chapter about how you
Speaker 1: should by individual stocks, some people still do it. So
Speaker 1: I wish i'd just listen to myself. So that's all
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say. So that's my only thing to say.
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to pump these companies or anything, right, right,
Speaker 1: obviously you're not trying to trying to pump them or
Speaker 1: anything like that. But I mean, the way we approach
Speaker 1: it is like honestly, one percent like like like you're saying,
Speaker 1: that is nothing. And if that keeps you from making larger,
Speaker 1: more costly mistakes down the road, if if that keeps
Speaker 1: you on track with the you know, with the rest
Speaker 1: of your portfolio, then a one percent pressure relief valve
Speaker 1: can be an incredibly help helpful thing that keeps you
Speaker 1: from just exploding the instant. Yeah, yeah, if you're gonna
Speaker 1: do it, if you want to do it, do it
Speaker 1: for fun. Take a small percentage your portfolio. You know
Speaker 1: we even okay, up to five percent, whatever you want
Speaker 1: to do, that's fine, but keep it small. Do that
Speaker 1: have most of your money and you know, things that
Speaker 1: are not going to decline and stay down for a
Speaker 1: very long time. So index funds generally don't do that.
Speaker 1: They have only once and recorded history, and they may
Speaker 1: do it again, of course, but it's unlikely. And so
Speaker 1: you know if that's happening, I think your investment pool,
Speaker 1: father is not even the biggest piece of your worries,
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, right right, right, Yeah, you're
Speaker 1: worrying about how your job the job. Yeah, we're talking
Speaker 1: about go back to the can goods and guns and
Speaker 1: all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, So I don't know if
Speaker 1: that is that your bike stockp on came goods and
Speaker 1: guns or now yeah. No, no, I'm saying no, you
Speaker 1: should be. So this is that's actually a controversial. It's
Speaker 1: not a controversial. It's a you should have like at
Speaker 1: least like I know, point one percent of your net
Speaker 1: worth or wealth in like some sort of prepper gear.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I have like twenty eight days of
Speaker 1: striped of dried food. Like in my apartment. I have
Speaker 1: like a life straw, so of like that's something you
Speaker 1: can like take dirty water and you can drink and
Speaker 1: like I could drink out of a puddle in New
Speaker 1: York City with this thing, right, and so it's like
Speaker 1: and it'd be clean. So it's a very small amount
Speaker 1: of money. It's been a couple hundred dollars whatever doing this,
Speaker 1: And I remember it's so funny during COVID, Like right
Speaker 1: when COVID happened, I had a by chance, I had
Speaker 1: a chemical spill kit. And you're like, why why that
Speaker 1: could you need? There's a chemical attack er. I mean
Speaker 1: it's crazy, obviously it's not. But I had this chemical
Speaker 1: spill kit and in there was a D ninety mask,
Speaker 1: an actual and ninety five, and I was wearing a
Speaker 1: mask back and like you know, early March, when everyone's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't have to wear masks, I'm like, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't believe that. I'm like, I'm putting this on.
Speaker 1: Like I've seen like Age has been wearing masks forever.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm taking a mask. And I had this
Speaker 1: thing on in New York City, and I honestly think
Speaker 1: it like prevented me from getting it, if I have
Speaker 1: to be honest, Like, after watching Station eleven, it makes
Speaker 1: me want to Yeah, there's you probably watch those guys
Speaker 1: in Traverse City, Michigan, and all of a sudden you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm going to hang onto this mask exactly. Yes, I
Speaker 1: think having a little preppertiveness is okay, just a little
Speaker 1: though I don't I don't like have a bunker or anything.
Speaker 1: Like that or siege but like a little okay, you're
Speaker 1: having some extra water having it's silly, but it's silly
Speaker 1: until it's not right, and then it's yeah. So yeah, alright,
Speaker 1: So let's talk about crypto for a sect. Because you
Speaker 1: didn't include cryptocurrency on in your list of investable assets
Speaker 1: like you made a list in in your in the book,
Speaker 1: you know, you talked about a couple of things already,
Speaker 1: index funds reads. Why why did you lift leave crypto off?
Speaker 1: And do you feel about crypto like the same way
Speaker 1: would you say about like individual stocks that it's just
Speaker 1: supposed to be confined to just a small amount or yeah,
Speaker 1: what's what's your what are your thoughts there? Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I think most of individuals will should be an income
Speaker 1: producing assets, and so those are things that can obviously
Speaker 1: producing gum. That's like obviously equities, businesses, farm land, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a host of assets I discussed in the book,
Speaker 1: and I didn't put things like gold, art, wine, cryptocurrency
Speaker 1: under that because they're not InCom producing. Now that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean you can't make money in them, of course you
Speaker 1: can write. The issue for me is just I just
Speaker 1: it's hard for me to you know, have most of
Speaker 1: my wealth and something that I have no clue whether.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're the price completely based on what other
Speaker 1: people think it's worth. That's it. Obviously that's true with equities,
Speaker 1: right even at the end of the day, people are
Speaker 1: still determining what what the price of business as. Right,
Speaker 1: But if there's a business producing profits, there's something there
Speaker 1: that we there's some tetheror to reality at least something right,
Speaker 1: and you can go back. And because that warm Buffin
Speaker 1: initially got rich. He was he was finding businesses that
Speaker 1: we were called net nets, where after you sold everything,
Speaker 1: you basically you buy the business for less than what
Speaker 1: you could sell everything for. That's like buying a suit
Speaker 1: ace that you know has a thousand dollars in it
Speaker 1: for five hundred bucks. You know there's a thousand dollars
Speaker 1: in the suitcase and someone selling it too for five
Speaker 1: hundred bucks. Like you would make that trade all day.
Speaker 1: And that's what warm Buffett did, right, So I think
Speaker 1: there is some tether to reality and that the money
Speaker 1: in the suitcases is profits, is income. Right now, the
Speaker 1: problem with crypto and art and all these other things,
Speaker 1: and I put them all in the same bucket is
Speaker 1: that you know, we don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 1: I have no idea whether these are gonna be worth
Speaker 1: things in the future. Right, Does that mean you shouldn't
Speaker 1: own any No, So I have about ten to fiftent
Speaker 1: of my assets spread out through um some physical art um,
Speaker 1: crypto and you know, yeah, so there's like the two
Speaker 1: main ones I do. It is probably about ten percent
Speaker 1: there and so yeah, so I think you can own
Speaker 1: something like I own some bitcoin and own some ethereum
Speaker 1: and things like that, but I don't think it should
Speaker 1: be a bulk of your portfolio. And I think there's
Speaker 1: even a lot of people in the crypto space that
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, I keep it to five percent because
Speaker 1: it's extremely risky and like and as it goes up,
Speaker 1: you need to rebalance, Like I at one point, you know,
Speaker 1: crypto is two or three of my portfolio. It got
Speaker 1: up to like eight percent of my portfolio, right because
Speaker 1: I had a bitcoin and I sold half of my
Speaker 1: bitcoin to kind of rebalance down, and people laughed at
Speaker 1: me and said it's crazy, and you know, how can
Speaker 1: you sell It's gonna go to a million bucks of
Speaker 1: coin and it may still do that. Who knows, but
Speaker 1: I think you need to be prudent and still rebalanced
Speaker 1: and do all the things you normally do, regardless of
Speaker 1: what's happening to underlying price, and right at the price
Speaker 1: I sold it at, just by chance, you know, is
Speaker 1: higher than where bitcoin is at, well, at least at
Speaker 1: the day of this recording. I have no idea where
Speaker 1: it's gonna be in a month, right, who does? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So like it. It could be a hundred thousand, it
Speaker 1: could be a twenty thousand, No one knows, right, so exactly. Nice. Well,
Speaker 1: Nick Man, this has been a fun conversation. We appreciate
Speaker 1: you again sharing the book with us ahead of time.
Speaker 1: And if folks are interested in checking it out, where
Speaker 1: can folks find Just keep buying Amazon, Yeah, just go
Speaker 1: to search. Just keep buying on Amazon. Otherwise you can
Speaker 1: get through a publisher at Harriman House as well, So awesome, man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you can check out Nick's weekly blog post Tuesday mornings
Speaker 1: right on of dollars in data dot com to Yep,
Speaker 1: that's it, we'll be there. Awesome, Nick, Well, thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us, man, We really appreciate it. Yeah, thanks Matt,
Speaker 1: thanks to appreciate you guys. Sweet awesome, man, what a
Speaker 1: great conversation with one of our favorite writers. Just the
Speaker 1: serie again, the way Nick writes, it's so enjoyable to
Speaker 1: read somebody who feels like he's he's connected to us
Speaker 1: as like normal people. I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: finance writers, folks who write about money, they could it
Speaker 1: almost seems like they're just a little too quant like
Speaker 1: a little too head in the clouds. But the way
Speaker 1: that Nick approaches money in particular, it just really resonates
Speaker 1: with me. So check out his sight, like we mentioned
Speaker 1: of dollars in data. Yeah, I agree, he uses like
Speaker 1: a lot of graphs and a lot of data in
Speaker 1: his writing, but but it's still approachable. It's very approach exactly.
Speaker 1: And there are a lot of people who are a
Speaker 1: lot of like super wonky blogs where they're using um,
Speaker 1: a lot of charts and language that's almost impossible to
Speaker 1: comprehend even for someone who digs money and finance. But
Speaker 1: Nick's is kind of like that uh, perfect presentation to
Speaker 1: a wider audience with some of that you know, nerdier
Speaker 1: data include is that's right? Man? So yeah, so on
Speaker 1: the note do you do you have? Are I kind
Speaker 1: of already hinted at what my big TAKEO is gonna be,
Speaker 1: So I'll let you get to yours first. Okay, I
Speaker 1: think mine literally is to just keep buying, Like that's
Speaker 1: the title of the book. But it's also one of
Speaker 1: those things is where if you put money in every
Speaker 1: single paycheck for a long period of time, it is
Speaker 1: going to have massive impacts on your ability to retire,
Speaker 1: on your ability to become financially independent. Like literally those
Speaker 1: three words I think are so impactful and it sounds
Speaker 1: so simple, and you can even start small, um perfectly,
Speaker 1: it starts young. Like the younger you start, the better
Speaker 1: off you're gonna be. But if you can just keep buying,
Speaker 1: like week in, week out, every paycheck and and setting
Speaker 1: some money aside for your future self, like the difference
Speaker 1: it makes because there are so many people who who
Speaker 1: just like think, I don't have that much to be
Speaker 1: able to invest right now, I can buy I can
Speaker 1: only buy a little, so I'm not gonna buy any
Speaker 1: But you should buy a little, and you should get started,
Speaker 1: and then you can you should keep going, keep doing
Speaker 1: the same thing. And so it's kind of like how
Speaker 1: getting one percent better every day at the end of
Speaker 1: a year you're like, I don't know three or sixty
Speaker 1: five better, right, and like it just it compounds on
Speaker 1: itself and and that is one of the things that
Speaker 1: your money in did is able to do for you.
Speaker 1: So just keep buying, keep buying those index funds, do
Speaker 1: it regularly, and you're gonna be surprised and even potentially
Speaker 1: amazed years and years and years down the road. So
Speaker 1: simple but awesome. That can just be your morning mantra
Speaker 1: every morning when you when you wake up, that's what
Speaker 1: you say to yourself, just to center yourself a little,
Speaker 1: myself in the mirror, do that, do the hume alone,
Speaker 1: slap of the face, and yeah, just keep doing it. Okay.
Speaker 1: So my big takeaway it was gonna be when it
Speaker 1: comes to uh, discovering or figuring out whatever it is
Speaker 1: that you are going to spend your money on. We
Speaker 1: kind of touched on how retirees how a lot of
Speaker 1: I think Nick said, like one in six their portfolios
Speaker 1: are growing, they're not actually drawing down, And we gotta
Speaker 1: figure out what it is that brings us joy, Like,
Speaker 1: what are the things that are going to bring us joy?
Speaker 1: What are the things that we're gonna spend some money on?
Speaker 1: And we don't always know, especially right off, about what
Speaker 1: those things are. And so he Nick mentioned a few things.
Speaker 1: But first of all, know yourself. Work on getting to
Speaker 1: know yourself and what it is that you are finding
Speaker 1: joy and satisfaction. But realize that you're gonna have to
Speaker 1: do some exploration. Realize that there's gonna be some trial
Speaker 1: and error along the way where you're not going to
Speaker 1: get things right. No, that waste will happen, Like there
Speaker 1: is going to be money that that goes to waste,
Speaker 1: there are going to be inefficiencies, and especially for someone
Speaker 1: like someone like myself who's a nerd, I don't want
Speaker 1: there to be any waste. I like for everything to
Speaker 1: be perfectly rationed, to be portioned out, uh and for
Speaker 1: nothing to go to waste. And so that's kind of
Speaker 1: a difficult pill for me to swallow. But I know
Speaker 1: that that those attempts at perfect optimization mean you're missing
Speaker 1: out on enjoyable things you could have otherwise participated in. Absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So kind of having an open mind and being willing
Speaker 1: to just try new things, I feel like it's just
Speaker 1: a good approach to life as well. Just be willing
Speaker 1: to say yes to things, especially if you've never experienced
Speaker 1: them before, it's like, why not, let me let's give
Speaker 1: that a shot. Once you experience it, and once you've
Speaker 1: learned sure, it would be error upon error for you
Speaker 1: to continue to say yes to that thing. But before
Speaker 1: that happens, I think you need to be open to
Speaker 1: some of those things. All right, let me just off
Speaker 1: from one mini tip on top of that, if it's
Speaker 1: a really expensive thing, try reading it first, see if
Speaker 1: you like it. So if you're like, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: jetski is gonna make me happy, or if you're like
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure like having own fifth wheel is gonna
Speaker 1: make me happy. Whatever it is, like we're going to
Speaker 1: see the country. Um, there are affordable ways to experiments.
Speaker 1: Give it a shot, experiment before you decide like I'm
Speaker 1: all in. Uh, it's when you're talking to huge sums
Speaker 1: of money. That's when you want to be careful before
Speaker 1: you take the plunge ahead of time. Wise words, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's there's a way to trial without error. Trial trial
Speaker 1: and rent exactly. Because if the rental costs you five
Speaker 1: hundred bucks or a thousand bucks, and it's ten thousand
Speaker 1: or a hundred thousand, yeah, those are big mistakes and
Speaker 1: you're gonna lose a lot of money on them. All right. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a great combo with Nick and great takeaways.
Speaker 1: But yeah, let's get back to the beer that we
Speaker 1: had while we chatted with Nick. And this one is
Speaker 1: called La Folie. It's by New Belgium, and this is
Speaker 1: just like maybe the initial classic sour beer of all time. Matt,
Speaker 1: what was your take on this one? You know, I
Speaker 1: think it's about where I remember it. It's happened in
Speaker 1: a few years. It's been a minute, Yeah, it's been
Speaker 1: it's been a few years. I remember always enjoying. Um,
Speaker 1: I think it was that's how war That was a
Speaker 1: that was a great one. That's like a similar it's
Speaker 1: bakes like a sister beer to this one. It's very
Speaker 1: similar to this. But but yeah, like that said, the
Speaker 1: sour notes that you get with this when like they're
Speaker 1: in my mind, they're a bit more tart. At one
Speaker 1: point I almost tricked myself into thinking I was drinking
Speaker 1: like a little bit of cranberry juice, you know, you
Speaker 1: know I'm talking about so like there's there's like a
Speaker 1: tart dryness that sets this beer apart, Like there's no
Speaker 1: doubting that this is a sour, but personally I wish
Speaker 1: it was a touch sweeter, maybe a touch more funky nous.
Speaker 1: I think that's maybe one of the things that you
Speaker 1: get with a lettour is that there are just like funkier,
Speaker 1: more barrel like woody notes. And so while I enjoyed
Speaker 1: it, it it definitely wasn't my favorite beer. But it is
Speaker 1: a good introduction to sours, in particular if you've never
Speaker 1: had one before. I think this is a great intro,
Speaker 1: and especially if you like oak tones. I do think
Speaker 1: it has a lot of oak forward flavors going on
Speaker 1: and on the on the label actually says that it's
Speaker 1: got like green apple flavors going on, and I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's actually that's actually true. I'll see that. I'll say
Speaker 1: that that is accurate. That description makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: But it's also I think it's like velvety smooth. And
Speaker 1: so if you're looking for and I'm sure, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can get this beer and probably all fifty states. So
Speaker 1: if you're like, I've never tried sour beers, I've heard
Speaker 1: Matt and Joel raping about them, and you're like, well,
Speaker 1: which one should I start with? Well, This one is
Speaker 1: probably a great one because it's it's a nice middle
Speaker 1: of the road sour, easily accessible, easily drinkable, not too harsh,
Speaker 1: not too crazy, not too funky, but still delicious. So
Speaker 1: this is probably one of the first ones I ever had.
Speaker 1: Quite literally, it was the first hour I ever had.
Speaker 1: Remember thinking there's no way that people drink this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the first sip you're like, uh, they're crazy, and then
Speaker 1: you quickly acquire a taste because it is delicious stuff. Um,
Speaker 1: And this is definitely a good one to start with.
Speaker 1: And it's also not terribly expensive. So even though I
Speaker 1: will say they I don't think they used to put
Speaker 1: it in this format. It's like, and they used to
Speaker 1: have it in big bottles, in seven fifty bottles, and
Speaker 1: this is a tiny, little three seventy five, and it
Speaker 1: had the cork, it had the cage. It's like they're
Speaker 1: partaking in a little bit of shrink flation over here,
Speaker 1: a little a little bit less beer for maybe close
Speaker 1: to the same price. You know, you're probably right. I
Speaker 1: think the big bottles used to be like twelve or
Speaker 1: thirteen bucks, and this one was nine at half the size,
Speaker 1: So you're right, just like it is everywhere else, but yeah,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it for this episode for folks who
Speaker 1: want the show notes will put links to nick site
Speaker 1: and Nix's book on our website at how to money
Speaker 1: dot com. That's right, and so that'll be it, Joel,
Speaker 1: until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,