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Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to season three, twenty three,

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Speaker 1: episode two of der Daily's Gay Yay production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: This is a podcast where we take a deep dive

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Speaker 1: into America's share consciousness. And it is Tuesday, January thirtieth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. We're almost out of it. We're almost

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Speaker 1: out of January.

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Speaker 2: We all want more day, one more day? And what

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Speaker 2: does that mean? It means National Plan for Vacation Day.

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Speaker 2: This feels like something. This feels like very much like

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Speaker 2: Blue Monday. I'm not sure this is a national day.

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Speaker 2: Rather than be like why don't y'll spend money on this,

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Speaker 2: they are trying to cheer us up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the pest National Day was like National fun at

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Speaker 1: Work Day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, National Plan for Vacation Day, brought to you by

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Speaker 2: the US Travel Association. Nailed it. And then also National

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Speaker 2: Croissant Day if you're Roy Sant. Yeah, if you like

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Speaker 2: to Kroi Sant, it's your day. Buttery Flicky?

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Speaker 1: Can I get a croissan Is?

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Speaker 2: How I like to order it?

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Speaker 1: At Starbucks? You know, class at what?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna have these suv egg bite bites. Man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, my name is Jack O'Brien ak you got

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Speaker 3: a frendom in me? You got a frindom in me?

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's not your foreskin that talking about.

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Speaker 3: I am the one that lives inside your mouth, under

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Speaker 3: your tongue. Man, not way down south. Or you got

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Speaker 3: a frendom in me?

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Speaker 2: That is courtesy a Scali on the Discord, in reference

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Speaker 2: to our conversation with Zara about Yeah, yeah, the little

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Speaker 2: string under the tongue that is called frenum that I

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Speaker 2: have been calling friendulum. But frigulum is a part of

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Speaker 2: the penis, so or but lingual flint. Frenulum also applies,

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Speaker 2: as many people came in to tell us medically too,

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Speaker 2: was also accurate. So oh okay, good, we'll call it

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Speaker 2: a book. Yeah, got it. Well, I'm thrilled to be

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Speaker 2: joined as always by my co host mister Miles Press

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Speaker 2: Miles Gray aka Mine Life a dragon Puppet. I must

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Speaker 2: bring Uchi and no Mind Dreams, No th me underrated

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Speaker 2: on t Ezy Easy. Shout out the Granberry, Shout out

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Speaker 2: Nicole Adrian on the Discord. Yes, the dreaming continues with

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Speaker 2: the lower levels of THC in my system. I had

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Speaker 2: another one that I kept having. My partner was sick

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Speaker 2: and kept vomiting on me. I hate to just start

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Speaker 2: this off like that. But then it was just a

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Speaker 2: misunderstanding in my dream. Somehow my medical panic turned into

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Speaker 2: like that was just water. It's okay, it's okay. It

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Speaker 2: was a it was a weird one. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's happening in the SubCom.

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Speaker 1: Her majesty real vomit and it was like dream it was.

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Speaker 2: It was like water got all over my I was like,

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Speaker 2: what what's going on here right now? And then it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: it's fine, it's just water. Is just water. And I

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, look, it's hard to it's hard

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Speaker 2: to re explain dreams after the fact because they just

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Speaker 2: sound like nonsense. They do. Yeah, it is Her Majesty sick.

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Speaker 2: That's what I couldn't that's what. Okay, that's good to hear. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: not at all.

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Speaker 1: Miles. We are thrilled to be joined in our third

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Speaker 1: seat by a writer, speaker, activist, best selling author who

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Speaker 1: works on issues of race and identity in America. Her

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Speaker 1: new book is Be a Revolution, How everyday people are

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Speaker 1: fighting oppression and changing the world, and how you can too.

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Speaker 1: Please Welcome to the show, The Brilliant, The talented Igioma.

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Speaker 2: How you doing? Welcome?

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Speaker 4: I am, I'm doing well. How are you?

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Speaker 2: We're We're doing great, We're doing great. It's great to

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Speaker 2: have you. We've we've just finished your book. We're very

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Speaker 2: excited to talk about it and pick your brain and

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Speaker 2: ask you questions, but not make you do any of

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Speaker 2: the extra labor that sometimes you're asked to do in

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Speaker 2: other spaces. Obviously, we want this to be a full conversation.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I also have to say, you are from Seattle,

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Speaker 2: and the first thing I always say to every person

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Speaker 2: from Seattle is dis ain't it great? Aren't the fries great?

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Speaker 2: And you came with it and said it was part

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Speaker 2: of your very substantial moment in your life on your wedding.

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Speaker 2: So I'm glad to hear that we have we have

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Speaker 2: that in common, just to start.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, sometimes it's all you need.

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Speaker 1: M You don't mind because dicks aren't. Miles has very

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Speaker 1: specific taste in French fries that he likes them, the

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Speaker 1: texture medium, rare, you know, he likes. He likes Matt

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Speaker 1: Saggi mashed potato sticks. Is that match sticks?

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Speaker 2: Now?

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Speaker 1: Is that always your preferred type of French fry or

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Speaker 1: just Dicks. There's something about dis.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, I like all different types of fries,

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Speaker 4: and there aren't fries like Dicks anywhere else. Like it's

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Speaker 4: there's a Dicks fry and then you can't get it

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Speaker 4: anywhere else. But it is a particular kind of soft,

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Speaker 4: very salty thing that's beautiful. But it actually tastes like

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Speaker 4: real potato, when a lot of French fries don't because

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Speaker 4: it is just real potato. You can watch them chopping

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Speaker 4: them up and tossing him in the fryar. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's a really specific thing. But no, I like French

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Speaker 4: fries other places, but when you want a Dick's French fry,

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Speaker 4: you can't go anywhere else.

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Speaker 1: That's all there is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, love it up there, Love it up there. Beautiful,

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Speaker 2: You've got it all and a great miste. Well, we

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Speaker 2: are going to dig into your book and just all

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Speaker 2: all the work your expertise.

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Speaker 1: But first before we get to that, we do like

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Speaker 1: to get to know our guests a little bit better

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Speaker 1: and ask what is something from your search history that's

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Speaker 1: revealing about who you are or what you're up to.

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Speaker 4: The Other day, I was trying to figure out what

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Speaker 4: happened to seal oh like a singer. Yeah, yeah, I was.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I think like Heidi Kluon up in

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Speaker 4: my feed, and then I was thinking what happened to

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Speaker 4: cell And my partner was like, oh, did he die?

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Speaker 4: And I said, I don't think he died, And so

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Speaker 4: I spent a good amount of time. I don't know.

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Speaker 4: He just seems happy. He was recently at like his

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Speaker 4: sister I think, or his cousin had a film reallyas

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Speaker 4: and he came and brought kids. Yeah, he seems happy.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, that's for me A lot.

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Speaker 4: Of times, it's random things popping up into my head

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Speaker 4: of you know, what happened to this person that, you

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Speaker 4: know that used to be a part of my life.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking about Jaman Hansu the other day too.

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Speaker 4: Maybe it's just like really beautiful black men you know

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Speaker 4: that popped up in like the nineties, and I'm like,

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Speaker 4: where did they go?

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Speaker 2: What happened? Yeah, what happened to Jamal Hansu? What's he doing?

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's always popping up in movies all the time.

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Speaker 2: And then like sometimes in roles, I'm like, Jami, you

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Speaker 2: I felt like sometimes you look it's Hollywood, do you

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Speaker 2: do all kinds of roles. But yeah, I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: think of what the last thing I saw him in was.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to think he was. I saw

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Speaker 4: him in something just a few years ago, but it

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Speaker 4: was like a really bit part with some futuristic like

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Speaker 4: space thing I think I remember. Yeah, But like, I

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Speaker 4: feel like he got type cast so bad, you know.

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Speaker 4: I mean we're like the nineties and yeah, you know,

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Speaker 4: of like he was only going to do like this

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Speaker 4: trauma porn or he was so exotified because of his

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Speaker 4: looks and his accent, and I just think that they

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Speaker 4: really put him into a corner that made it a

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Speaker 4: hard dream to get out of. And you know, and

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Speaker 4: I think he has said the same, Like I think

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Speaker 4: I remember some quotes from interviews in the past being like, yeah,

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Speaker 4: he was absolutely type cast. But you know, my favorite

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Speaker 4: memory of him is always going to be the Janet

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Speaker 4: Jackson video because that's really where I just watched that

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Speaker 4: on repeat, you know, in my little like preteen hormonal

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Speaker 4: like explosion of like yeah, yeah, ooh, it is this

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Speaker 4: incredibly beautiful human being and just washed it over.

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Speaker 2: And over again. Love will never do without you. Know,

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Speaker 2: we know that Jimon or jim On for what were

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Speaker 2: people called him jam In too. Yeah, and I know

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Speaker 2: another person I remember I went to school with someone

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Speaker 2: who called him Digimond.

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Speaker 4: I heard that a couple of times, like, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Digital Monsters, the cartoon.

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Speaker 1: Man, you know what. I think part of the reason that, like,

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Speaker 1: Seal's kind of hard to search online, Like I searched

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Speaker 1: Steal Urban Legend and they were like, Okay, is breaking

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Speaker 1: the seal a real thing when you're out drinking? And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just feel like it's a very specific. But Seal

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Speaker 1: is sixty and thriving and touring. Last time Google checked

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Speaker 1: out with him.

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Speaker 2: The last last tweet he had was He's playing Redondo

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Speaker 2: Beach Beach Life Festival this May through May third weekend

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Speaker 2: with Sting, Incubus Devo Fleet Foxes. This is a real

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Speaker 2: interesting lineup. I feel like he should get higher billing.

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Speaker 2: He's like on the third line.

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Speaker 1: It feels right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I just want to know what crowd is going,

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Speaker 4: like what how people are mixing, like like oh, we

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Speaker 4: got your Fleet Foxes, we got your Sting. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 4: I can see I can see whatever the ven diagram

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Speaker 4: is between Sting and Seal, being very annoying, like I

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Speaker 4: don't want to be in that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of Yeah, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: Obama third term if I could, and I feel like.

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Speaker 1: Then you add the fleet Foxes into that, ven diagram

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Speaker 1: becomes pretty Yeah, there are three separate circles.

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Speaker 2: Suddenly.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, what is something you think is overrated?

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Speaker 4: Self care?

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Speaker 1: Self care is over.

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Speaker 2: It as in like the way it's being defined in

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Speaker 2: mainstream culture or what what dimension of it?

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Speaker 4: Or yeah, no, I mean I think a lot of it.

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Speaker 4: I mean I think that the one, you know, self

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Speaker 4: care being really pushed is this tool to kind of

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Speaker 4: help us recover from hyper capitalism and kind of putting

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Speaker 4: it on ourselves stead of looking at like systemic harm

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Speaker 4: and why we're so exhausted and you know why we

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Speaker 4: would need to recover in the first place. This idea

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Speaker 4: that it's something that could be sold to you, the

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Speaker 4: idea that we recover from systemic issues on an individual basis,

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Speaker 4: just yeah, all of it. The fact that you could

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Speaker 4: fail at caring for yourself, you know, and it could

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Speaker 4: be enough lift Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah's your fault.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not grinding hard enough on that self care ship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right.

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Speaker 4: Oh you you don't. You know, you don't have any

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Speaker 4: sick time, and you're exhausted and you're working fifty hour weeks.

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Speaker 4: Have you tried doing yoga on your list day? You know?

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Speaker 2: Have you tried a heated weighted blanket exactly? Are you

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Speaker 2: sure that won't help you feel terrible about edgemonic forces

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Speaker 2: that are acting upon your life constantly? No, that's so

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Speaker 2: true because now the way you say that, it like

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Speaker 2: makes self care feel like the paper straws, like what

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Speaker 2: that is to the environment, where it's like I don't

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Speaker 2: look at that causes you idiot? Just yeah, fucking where

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Speaker 2: a blanket that's shaped like a robe, and drink some

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Speaker 2: tea and take a bath and just sort of let's

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Speaker 2: let's let those real things meld away while it's a distraction. Wow. Okay, yep, Jema,

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Speaker 2: thank you for that one. Yep, because it's true, like

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Speaker 2: I feel like even like it might like in therapy,

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Speaker 2: there is like an element of self care that is

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Speaker 2: more just about being kind to yourself, but then as

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Speaker 2: a way to sort of be like, this is how

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Speaker 2: we get around the stress, the real stresses of like

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Speaker 2: our really inequitable, unfair world, to be like just just

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Speaker 2: try self care rather than yeah, empowering ourselves and the

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Speaker 2: myriad of ways we can do, like for the many

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Speaker 2: examples you have in your book are probably a more

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Speaker 2: effective way to use that energy. For sure.

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Speaker 1: I like to get into really negative self talk about

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Speaker 1: how badly I'm doing it self care, you know, like

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Speaker 1: you're fucking this up just in the spa, relaxing at

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Speaker 1: myself in the mirror.

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Speaker 2: Man, don't do that.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, what is something you think is underrated?

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Speaker 4: Community care? Absolutely? Like I think every time that we

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Speaker 4: are in times of strife and stress and you know

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Speaker 4: a spoiler alert, we're going to be increasingly in those

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Speaker 4: as time progresses. I don't think everyone kind of is like, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: when we're over this, over what over?

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Speaker 1: In stage capitalism, twenty twenty three was just a bad year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all ready for the next off.

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Speaker 4: We'll get back to normal soon. Yeah. It's the idea

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Speaker 4: of leaning into community for healing and being a part

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Speaker 4: of community healing, finding healing in community, being part of

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Speaker 4: healing community as a way of sustaining us. As an

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Speaker 4: acknowledgment of what has sustained us, I think is devalued highly.

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Speaker 4: I mean, not only do we see this in how

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Speaker 4: people responded to the ongoing COVID pandemic right where you

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Speaker 4: actually people were mocked for prioritizing community care, and we

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Speaker 4: saw the way which you know, we treated our children

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Speaker 4: like we had our children home for a year and

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Speaker 4: we're they were being told they're falling behind, falling behind.

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Speaker 4: Who how can you fall fall behind when every student

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Speaker 4: is the whole world and that you know. Yeah, but

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Speaker 4: even now, when we think about how we're told to

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Speaker 4: address societal issues, you know, the idea is to like,

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Speaker 4: you know, like girl boss your way out of it,

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Speaker 4: or you know, all these things instead of saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: you know, why are you here? What has gotten your

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Speaker 4: your community through these times in the past, What is

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Speaker 4: kind of in our blood? And that's communal care and

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Speaker 4: we can get a lot out of it when it's

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Speaker 4: true communal care. You know, that's not like one subset

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Speaker 4: of the population sacrificing themselves for the whole, but instead

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Speaker 4: people seeing each other and their wholeness and caring for

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Speaker 4: each other and recognizing are shared. You know, survival is

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Speaker 4: one of the most longstanding and important tools we've had

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Speaker 4: for resilience and resistance and joy and growth. And everything

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Speaker 4: in our society and especially i'd say in an American

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Speaker 4: culture and you know the quote unquote Western culture, it's

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Speaker 4: treated like this really backwards, slow, you know, poverty inducing

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Speaker 4: way of living.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, you can't bootstrap it on your own. Well

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Speaker 2: then what's that point? Yeah, it does look like that.

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Speaker 2: And then even when you look at things like food

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Speaker 2: not bombs and groups like that who are being like, well,

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Speaker 2: we are actually going to care for the people that

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Speaker 2: are in need of the community, and then you have

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Speaker 2: you know, local government being like this is illegal, like

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Speaker 2: and trying to completely you know, devalue that kind of

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Speaker 2: practice and make it illegal. Is I think a really

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Speaker 2: good example of how like to your point, it is

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Speaker 2: something that we've been doing naturally to care for each other,

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Speaker 2: but we were finding a way to sort of obscure

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Speaker 2: that and turn into like a negative because I think, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the momentum of something like that is more like mutual

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Speaker 2: aid or intersectional thinking, and that's probably doesn't benefit the

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Speaker 2: current situation. As you say, if ND stage, do we

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Speaker 2: feel like there's a concerted effort to erase like the

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Speaker 2: just community like that, I guess I'm just trying to

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Speaker 2: think of, like you know, movies and things like that

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Speaker 2: that I think are like shape how we view different

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Speaker 2: parts of history. And like just the fact that.

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Speaker 1: Like bowling used to be used to be a big

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Speaker 1: deal in America.

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Speaker 2: Like I just I remember hearing this NPR story where

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Speaker 2: they were like, yeah, like everybody used to like go bowling,

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Speaker 2: like the whole society was based Like all these cultures

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Speaker 2: are based around like people just like going bowling on

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Speaker 2: a weekend night and like seeing their entire town there.

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Speaker 1: Or I think church is the other example. Do we

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Speaker 1: think that there's like a concerted effort to like cut

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Speaker 1: those things out of the stories that we tell ourselves

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Speaker 1: or is that just because we are so like at

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Speaker 1: a cellular level taught to be individualistic that like they

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Speaker 1: just aren't in the stories that we tell from history.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's a conservative effort. I mean we

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Speaker 4: look at like if you think of the movies and

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Speaker 4: heroes of the movies, it's always this this one individual

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Speaker 4: when alone, or we look at suggests I'm a you know,

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Speaker 4: the idea of a self made millionaire or billionaire, which

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Speaker 4: is ridiculous, right, It pulls us, you know, away from collectivism.

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Speaker 4: Collectivism has always been you know collective consciousness collective care

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Speaker 4: has always been the enemy of systemic oppression because that's

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Speaker 4: where we can lean into our real power and where

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Speaker 4: we don't need people to speak for us and make

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Speaker 4: decisions for us. And so yeah, it is erased all

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Speaker 4: of the time, like the amount of ways in which

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Speaker 4: people will, you know, try to be like no one

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Speaker 4: helped me, you know, even though I did this all

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Speaker 4: my own, Like, yeah, I didn't. And also that's really sad, but.

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Speaker 3: That's always so sad for you.

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Speaker 2: But I guess, yeah, and I think that's where like

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Speaker 2: our American ego gets involved, Like and that's why I'm

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Speaker 2: so unique, you see, because I had no, oh advantages,

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Speaker 2: and I'm selectively remembering that my father gave me a

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Speaker 2: three hundred thousand dollars loan, okay, but then I did

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Speaker 2: it all by myself after that, And it's sort of

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Speaker 2: part of that way to just differentiate ourselves in this

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Speaker 2: very like individualistic way for sure. Yeah, yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: think like it is probably it is. I feel like intentional, right,

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Speaker 2: because even as we've talked about on the show and

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Speaker 2: even examples in your book, Joma, like we're we're trying

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Speaker 2: to take certain details even out of our educational narratives

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Speaker 2: that we're giving children, like whether that's like the kinds

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Speaker 2: of things Ron DeSantis is trying to do in Florida

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Speaker 2: and obscuring like you know, we have people being like

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Speaker 2: slavery was actually like a great work study program, or

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Speaker 2: like trying to reduce like like have those kinds of

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Speaker 2: takes in history books or the other example I've heard

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Speaker 2: from one of the people in your labor chapter about

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Speaker 2: how there's no real discussion about like the labor movements

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Speaker 2: and why those are important. They're just like, yeah, there's

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Speaker 2: a Department of Labor next chapter the USDA, And you're like,

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Speaker 2: what you know, because if we're not taught that as kids,

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Speaker 2: and if those aren't the lessons, then yeah, we have

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Speaker 2: we don't have a great frame of reference to lean

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Speaker 2: on when like those kinds of moments arise where we

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Speaker 2: need to have that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's uh, let's take a quick break

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Speaker 1: and we'll dive into the book and just all the

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Speaker 1: amazing work that you do.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 5: Ye, and we're back, and Geoma, your book is in

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Speaker 5: part about like you know, everyday people, you know as

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Speaker 5: the as the subhet says like how every day people

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Speaker 5: can fight oppression like you don't have to be born

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Speaker 5: into it.

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Speaker 1: It's very hopeful, as we've been talking about, because I

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Speaker 1: think a lot of people feel despair and not, you know,

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Speaker 1: weighted down by all all these systems. But I just

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Speaker 1: want to start with your story because I heard you

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Speaker 1: talk about you were working and marketing before you kind

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Speaker 1: of came to the work that you do today. So

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Speaker 1: I'd just be curious to hear kind of about that

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Speaker 1: transition from the world of marketing to getting into doing

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Speaker 1: the really important work you do.

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Speaker 4: Know, yeah, I would say, you know, for me, I

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Speaker 4: think and for many people actually in the book, a

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Speaker 4: lot of it is necessity, right, we come to this,

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Speaker 4: especially if you are a you know, population primarily targeted

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Speaker 4: by systemic oppression. You know, I was working and doing

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Speaker 4: what I had to do to raise my family, and

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Speaker 4: you know, in Seattle that means you're in tech. So

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Speaker 4: I was in marketing for a tech agency and then

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Speaker 4: for the auto industry doing digital marketing and advertising, and

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Speaker 4: I was in an incredibly toxic environment for a long time.

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Speaker 4: I was the only black person, the only woman in

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Speaker 4: my entire department, and you know, living in an environment

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Speaker 4: that likes to pretend that because the majority of its

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Speaker 4: voters voted a particular way, that it had no work

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Speaker 4: to do on race or racism. And I was still

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Speaker 4: a black woman at Freytas and coming to this work

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Speaker 4: really for me what was sparked when Trayvon Martin was murdered,

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Speaker 4: and that was when I just had to have a

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Speaker 4: space to express how I was feeling my fear, my outrage,

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Speaker 4: my heartbreak and talk about you know what this meant

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Speaker 4: for me and people I loved in New and Seattle,

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Speaker 4: because I was in a space where I was surrounded

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Speaker 4: by people who were saying, oh, it's so sad. You know,

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Speaker 4: good thing, you don't have to worry about that here.

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Speaker 4: You know, good thing you don't live in Florida, and

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Speaker 4: not recognizing the amount of fear I had every day,

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Speaker 4: you know, sending my kids out in the world, watching

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Speaker 4: my brother when my brother was on tour at the

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Speaker 4: time as well, and he is, you know, six foot

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Speaker 4: four black man, and you know, feeling, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 4: y'all the biggest spider. Did you see that?

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Speaker 2: Just yeah, that was wild. It actually looked like a

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Speaker 2: glowing like.

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Speaker 4: It's like coming back up now what I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Oh we're going.

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Speaker 4: Hey, what it's doing? Provided it gets back up.

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Speaker 2: There, it's eating the other insects.

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Speaker 1: And it also made me realize how people like think

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Speaker 1: they see ghosts, because I thought I saw a ghost,

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Speaker 1: like a spirit, just like down for a second.

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Speaker 4: Well, anyways, back to the system. Yeah, I just I

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Speaker 4: needed to express it. I felt like I was kind

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Speaker 4: of going crazy, and I don't see that lately. It

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Speaker 4: felt like I was in an alternate reality where I

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Speaker 4: was feeling all of this anguish and heartbreak. And I

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Speaker 4: would go to work with people who said they really

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Speaker 4: cared about these issues, and they'd be like, oh, look

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Speaker 4: at the shoes.

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Speaker 2: I thought, how's your day?

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Speaker 4: You know, I just it wasn't impacting them, and they

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Speaker 4: didn't want to talk about it. And so I started writing,

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Speaker 4: really just trying to get coworkers, friends, community members to

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Speaker 4: discuss this and look at this on a more local level.

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Speaker 4: Writing had been a great love of mine. You know,

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Speaker 4: as a child, I had wanted to be a writer,

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Speaker 4: but you know, I was also a black woman caring

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Speaker 4: for a family, and the thought of going into a

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Speaker 4: creative field was just not feasible for me. At that time,

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Speaker 4: and so I just started writing and people started responding,

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Speaker 4: not the people I intended to, like not you know,

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Speaker 4: I've lost a lot of friends, but other people in

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Speaker 4: the area. And so first it was like other black

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Speaker 4: people in Seattle being like, oh my gosh, someone shared

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Speaker 4: that Facebook post or that blog post and no one

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Speaker 4: has described what it's like to live here in such

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Speaker 4: a way before for me. And then it was just

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Speaker 4: like random calls from like, you know, the New York

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Speaker 4: Times and like being like, hey, we saw that you

434
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 4: were you know, we saw this post you made. Can

435
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 4: we reprint it? And I'm like, what's happening? Because I

436
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,359
Speaker 4: had no intention at the time to build a writing career, right.

437
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,800
Speaker 4: And the funny thing about it is when you enter

438
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:59,360
Speaker 4: a space where you can really speak freely and openly

439
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 4: as a black woman, after decades, you know, I was

440
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 4: in my thirties of always kind of trying to check

441
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 4: part of yourself at the door for your own safety

442
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 4: and protection, you can't really like shove that back in

443
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 4: a box, you know. Like, once I had a space

444
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 4: where I could just I was being super honest about

445
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 4: what I was seeing and feeling and being really outspoken.

446
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 4: Then going back and spending you know, ten hours a

447
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 4: day in this pretty exclusively white male space where you know,

448
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:33,439
Speaker 4: that was incredibly hostile to my existence. I couldn't be

449
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 4: quiet about it anymore, and so making the leap to write.

450
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 4: You know, I was absolutely getting more requests to write things,

451
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,200
Speaker 4: but really it was I'm either going to get fired

452
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 4: from this job or I'm going to leave this job

453
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 4: and see what I can do with this voice that

454
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 4: people seem to be responding to. And so I made

455
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 4: that leap with no savings, no real plan B. And

456
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 4: you know, luckily, I guess from a life of growing

457
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 4: up incredibly poor or the ability to withstand you know,

458
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:05,680
Speaker 4: that changed for a while and build upon it. And

459
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,880
Speaker 4: you know, eventually my lovely agent, Laurie Bramer, reached out

460
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 4: to me and asked if I wanted to write a book,

461
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,120
Speaker 4: and I thought about it, and a couple of years

462
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: later I did, and you know, the rest is kind

463
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 4: of history.

464
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 2: Right, And I feel like, you know, like, with this book, right,

465
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 2: be a revolution. You know, revolution is this term that

466
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: I think is at the forefront of so many people's

467
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: minds because we're like in this liminal space where we're like,

468
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 2: what like the way we're doing shit is terrible. But

469
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 2: where do we go? Like, you know, a lot of

470
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,159
Speaker 2: people are like, I know a lot of this stuff

471
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 2: is not serving us at all, and that there's I

472
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: don't need any more proof about this, But what do

473
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 2: I do now? And we always hear about like you know,

474
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 2: whether it's a cynical version like we need a revolution

475
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 2: here in this country or other people's like we need

476
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 2: to have a like internal like a societal revolution here.

477
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 2: Whatever it is about our values, it feels like I

478
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 2: feel like for a lot of people, feels like an

479
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 2: overwhelming topic with very rigid definitions, like if it isn't

480
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: a mass movement, then it isn't revolutionary. Or if it

481
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 2: isn't cataclysmic instant change, like instantly in one big moment,

482
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 2: then that's not revolution. How do you sort of define

483
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 2: it in sort of our own roles within that framework,

484
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:17,479
Speaker 2: because I think you really do a great job of

485
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: helping connect people to this idea without sort of having

486
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: the whole thing of like do I you to put

487
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 2: on a three tip, three cornered hat and grab a

488
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: musket and get on my horse type of thing, or

489
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: is it about sort of what we're able to do

490
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 2: what we're putting out there. So how would you sort

491
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: of define that or help people understand like the sort

492
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 2: of this as a concept without getting into the overwhelming

493
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 2: parts of it.

494
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I would say first that there is revolution

495
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 4: happening every day on large and small levels, and where

496
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 4: we are directly challenging and kind of breaking the chains

497
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 4: of systemic oppression, whether that's the way it's been pushed

498
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 4: upon us internally, how we deal with each other, our

499
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 4: systems large or small, well, where we are doing that work,

500
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: where you're doing revolutionary work, And there are so many

501
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 4: levels of this, so it doesn't you know, have to

502
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 4: reach a certain threshold to be revolutionary. Every aspect of

503
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 4: it is and so there's always work to do, and

504
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 4: it can seem like a lot, But the good news

505
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 4: is that you could literally decide right now to do

506
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: a piece of it, whether that's you know, looking at

507
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 4: your own personal indoctrination and how you see yourself and

508
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 4: how you have been asked to be a part of harm,

509
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 4: whether it's looking at what's being taught in your kids'

510
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 4: school and saying, hey, I'm going to have this conversation

511
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 4: and really open up, you know, try to open up

512
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 4: space and safety for these young people in these classrooms.

513
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 4: There is always something to be done, and it's important

514
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 4: to recognize that people are doing it and that the

515
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 4: story of that is often a race. The truth is

516
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 4: is the vast majority of our systems don't serve a

517
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 4: lot of people, especially our bipock populations and are queer

518
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 4: and trans and disabled by populations. It doesn't serve us,

519
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 4: and therefore we've had to create revolutionary systems that you know,

520
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 4: we are tweaking and experimenting with every day because we

521
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,919
Speaker 4: don't have any alternative. And yet people don't talk about that,

522
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 4: and they really erase it so that you will think

523
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 4: there's nothing to be done instead of saying what is

524
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 4: being done? Because every day, like even you know, listening

525
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 4: to some of the stories that people I was talking

526
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 4: to and watching them revolutionize their own lives and the

527
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,199
Speaker 4: people around them, and even if that's just two or

528
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 4: three people total, that's huge, especially if we consider all

529
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 4: of us kind of taking those steps, we can make

530
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: some really big change.

531
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: Do you think that people that are sort of beginning

532
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 2: to be interested in justice movements or justice work they

533
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 2: fear that term for like because of just sort of

534
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: how like sort of sort of nebulous. It is in

535
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 2: our minds, so like instantly when we hear revolution, like

536
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 2: we're thinking like literal historical revolutions that have occurred in countries,

537
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 2: rather than this idea of like being a node within

538
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 2: a system of change that is consistently sort of espousing

539
00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 2: like these different values that would help bring about that.

540
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: Do you think that is like that that's sort of

541
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: an obstacle for people who are who are like, I

542
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 2: know stuff's bad, but like I don't know revolution am

543
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm like a revolutionary kind of person.

544
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: Do you think that sort of plays into sort of

545
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: like the apathy for lack of a better word for

546
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: some people.

547
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the fear right because we like to

548
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 4: paint these very extreme pictures of what change looks like,

549
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 4: and that's been done on purpose. Right, So when we

550
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,800
Speaker 4: look at you know, systems, and they talk about systemic change,

551
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 4: a lot of times people will immediately turn towards this

552
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 4: really violent imagery because they want to they want to

553
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 4: make it seem like something that people can't join in on.

554
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 4: But I think it's also really important to recognize that

555
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 4: even in our histay where we see what is known

556
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 4: as violent revolution or very like active military type revolution.

557
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 4: What you also have for years and years of social

558
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 4: revolution that happened before and after, and where that doesn't happen,

559
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: we actually see a lot of harm. Right, So the

560
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 4: real work is about how we see ourselves, how we

561
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 4: relate to each other, how we structure our systems. Often

562
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 4: what makes news is first the violent response to that,

563
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 4: and then how people withstand that, and that can often

564
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 4: look like the quote unquote revolutions that we see in news. Right,

565
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 4: We're not seeing people immediately going I'm gonna even when

566
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 4: we think we do, I'm going to go and I'm

567
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 4: taking a gun and I'm overthrowing like that is not

568
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 4: actually what we're seeing. What we're usually seeing is years

569
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: of social and political revolution happening, a violent response, and

570
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 4: then people meeting that response, and that's that little snippet,

571
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 4: That little piece is what meets makes the news. But

572
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: then afterwards we don't see the continued work of healing

573
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 4: from that, of growing from that of redefining. But that

574
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 4: is done in large and small spaces every day, and

575
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 4: it's done in ways that are so quiet it doesn't

576
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 4: make headlines because people don't want us to know it

577
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 4: can be done that way. It doesn't mean that there

578
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 4: will never be violent responsible and we saw that even

579
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 4: in twenty twenty, right, we saw people taking guns to protests,

580
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 4: right to shoot peaceful protesters because this idea it could

581
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 4: that you know, it was a revolution. It was called

582
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:43,880
Speaker 4: a revolution because people were revolutionizing how they thought about

583
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 4: systemic racism. And then people said, oh, let me get

584
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 4: my gun and stop it. Right, And the idea of

585
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 4: it being violent, even now, like in history books, is

586
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 4: likely going to come down and looking like black people

587
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 4: were in this violent uprising and not we were part

588
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: of this beautiful, moral, intellectual revolution that was met with

589
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 4: an incredibly violent response because anything that threatens systems is

590
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 4: considered a mortal threat to the systems, right, and they're

591
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 4: going to treat it violently regardless of what tactics we have.

592
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 4: And so I want people to look at that and recognize, like,

593
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 4: how much do I actually know what perspective everything I've

594
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 4: thought about as far as revolution, What perspective have I

595
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,960
Speaker 4: been given? Who's writing these stories and what really happened?

596
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 4: And you know, think about what does it mean to

597
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 4: get people to change their minds? Because you can't do

598
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 4: that at a point, you know, what is it getting

599
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,800
Speaker 4: people into the streets, What is getting people to say

600
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 4: we want a new system? That's the actual revolution?

601
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

602
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk a lot on this show about the

603
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: sort of attempt to kill our imagination when it comes

604
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: to alternate systems to you know, capitalism, policing, human engaging.

605
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: You know, these are systems that have physical captured us

606
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: because they're the systems we live inside, but they've also

607
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: captured our imagination, like they're the systems that our movies

608
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: take place inside. I always go back to movies because

609
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: I think they have a profound impact on like how

610
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: people kind of view parts of the world that they

611
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: haven't experienced. And like there's like movies about cops a

612
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 1: lot for a lot of our history. And it's been

613
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: said that it's easier to imagine like a zombie apocalypse

614
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: than the end of capitalism. And like that's why this

615
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 1: book is so exciting, because it focuses on telling these

616
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: stories and creating these alternatives. So I'm just curious, like

617
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: how you came, how you approached that work, and then

618
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: if there are any specific stories of these like alternative

619
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: systems that you've seen people successfully implement that that you

620
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: think will are particularly helpful for you know, people's ability

621
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: to imagine a world outside of the systems of capitalism, policing,

622
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: and human caging.

623
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, you know, as first of my approach,

624
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 4: you know, there were some people I knew that I

625
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 4: wanted to talk to right away, people I had been

626
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: in community with, in movement work with. But really I

627
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 4: was looking at, what are the places where we're seeing

628
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 4: change happening or burgeoning, change that doesn't get talked about.

629
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 4: What are these stories that are really inspiring with people

630
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 4: who've been you know, on the ground doing this work

631
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 4: for a long time. And then you know, I started

632
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 4: asking as I was talking with people, like who's inspiring you,

633
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 4: who's you going? Who do you really want to see

634
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 4: in these pages? And it really brought me into these

635
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 4: spaces that even I hadn't known existed before, and you know,

636
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 4: work that people were doing that I didn't know existed.

637
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 4: And I really hope that when people go through this book,

638
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 4: but they'll see is that wherever your interests lie, wherever

639
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 4: your skills lie, there's space for you to make really

640
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 4: courtant change. And so a lot of the things that

641
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 4: I wasn't even sure were going to interest me, like

642
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 4: as someone who is you know, Okay, So I you know,

643
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 4: I love things and I'm highly critical of capitalism, right,

644
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: which I think is is a pretty universal idea. So

645
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 4: I wasn't exactly thinking like I'm going to have a

646
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 4: chapter on business and to people able to do you know,

647
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 4: because I feel like we have like those weird books

648
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 4: of like do business Better and it's like not you.

649
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: Know, entrepreneur way to systemic change?

650
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:27,919
Speaker 5: Right right?

651
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 2: Oh? Okay?

652
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 4: And so you know when I was talking with like

653
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 4: Richie Masida in the book and actually reaching out to

654
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 4: talk with him about his Success Stories project, which is,

655
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 4: you know, an amazing organization that seeks to help men

656
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 4: caught up in the prison industrial complex heal from violent

657
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 4: white supremacist patriarchy. And he was like, actually, I want

658
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 4: to talk about my abolitionist business. And I was like what,

659
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 4: you know that I had not set out for that,

660
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 4: but hearing him talk about this reimagining and taking these

661
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 4: principles that he had dedicated so much of his life

662
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 4: to and saying I'm going to apply it everywhere I'm

663
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 4: and yeah, I want to have this coving company and

664
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: I want to apply it here, and I want to

665
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: see if I can do something completely different with this

666
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 4: was really beautiful, and it totally you know, caught me

667
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 4: off guard because I really wasn't planning on including that

668
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 4: in there, and you know, looking at that and saying, oh,

669
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 4: even in these everyday things, we can actually challenge a

670
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 4: lot of assumptions and try something really creative and see

671
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 4: what we can, you know, see how we can further

672
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 4: live these values. They don't just exist in one space.

673
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 4: We don't say I'm a movement worker right now, and

674
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 4: so I care about liberation when I'm marching, But then

675
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 4: you know, my relationship with my family, my children, and

676
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 4: my coworkers is going to be highly patriarchal and hierarchical.

677
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 4: You know, that's not how this goes. And you can

678
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 4: actually be quite revolutionary by just simply saying all of these,

679
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 4: you know, statuses I'm sharing. What if I live that,

680
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 4: I what if I said every everywhere that I'm you know,

681
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 4: interacting with people or systems, I'm trying to bring those

682
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 4: values into that well.

683
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's really important too, because we're

684
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: in such a social media centric age where there is

685
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: a lot of like this you know, digital activism for

686
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 2: lack of a better word, where it's like, sure, I

687
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 2: will retweet or share something like and I see this

688
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 2: so often too, Like I mean, in twenty twenty, it

689
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: was amazing how many people were like digitally on their shit.

690
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: You know, I was like, oh, okay, okay, only for

691
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 2: it to fizzle out pretty quickly thereafter. Unless I think,

692
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,759
Speaker 2: especially for people who weren't part of these communities that

693
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: were at the highest risk. What is the challenge that

694
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: we should be laying out to people who are like Okay,

695
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: clearly you feel like this is something worth saying. I

696
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: will share my handle on social media to rebroadcast this message,

697
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: but I just can't quite get there. Is it, Like

698
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: what sort of examination do we need to do, like internally,

699
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,959
Speaker 2: whether that's like I mean, like what your whole chapter

700
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 2: on ableism had me really like inspecting my own beliefs

701
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: and how limiting my own beliefs were around that and

702
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 2: how much you know that is sharian Stare sort of

703
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 2: metaphor was about like how ableism is just intertwined with everything,

704
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 2: especially because we're in this capitalist mindset about productivity and

705
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: what productive bodies do or do not do. So like,

706
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: what are the what are the kinds of steps I

707
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,439
Speaker 2: think that everyone can do, because I think many people

708
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: are like, I know what has to be done. I

709
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,880
Speaker 2: can live. For me as a black and Asian person,

710
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm very able to. It's very easy for me to

711
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: speak about anti Asian racism or anti black racism things

712
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: like that, but ableism a little bit different. My life

713
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 2: isn't intersecting with those kinds of things as much. I

714
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 2: try to talk about other issues around transphobia and homophobia

715
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 2: as much because I do know people in like in

716
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: those communities. But what sort of like what are what

717
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 2: are the kind of nudges we need to be giving

718
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 2: ourselves to be Like, Okay, our head's in the right place,

719
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 2: but now let's let's take it beyond the retweet, Like

720
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: how do we do that without freaking somebody out? Because

721
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 2: again I think people think that can be very or

722
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 2: it's just not their place. Maybe to take it further

723
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: than that, Yeah, I.

724
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: Would say my number one advice is to start small.

725
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 4: So I usually advise people like, start where your interest lies,

726
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: whether that's a hobby or anything like that. You know

727
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 4: you can start with and as someone who who has written,

728
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 4: you know, very popular books on race and racism. I

729
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 4: get emails from people about their issues. So trust me,

730
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 4: there is no segment. There is no hobby you have

731
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 4: but doesn't have a systemic racist issue or a systemic

732
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 4: compression issue. And like, you know, a couple years ago,

733
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 4: I remember there was a big kerfluffle in the knitting

734
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 4: community about racism as far as whose patterns get published

735
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 4: and things like that. Right, I was getting it, I

736
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 4: know because I get emails from people say, you know,

737
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 4: I love advice when people are tagging me and saying

738
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:48,279
Speaker 4: you should read this book. So the truth is is

739
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 4: you can pick that one space and say, what's happening

740
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 4: in this space? How are people moving through this space

741
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 4: or have access to this space? Who's invited to this space?

742
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 4: How is it different from my experience? And where does

743
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 4: my privilege And so if you just pick that one

744
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 4: little space, if you love knitting and you're saying who

745
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 4: you know whose patterns get published or who gets to

746
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 4: go to writing conferences and get seen, or who's appropriating

747
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 4: culture and these sorts of things, I'm going to focus

748
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 4: on this and I'm going to go, you know, look

749
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 4: for the voices of people who have been talking about

750
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 4: this because people do not suffer in silence. And I'm

751
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 4: just going to start here. I'm going to learn as

752
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 4: much as I can about this one little space, and

753
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 4: I'm gonna learn to leverage my power in that space,

754
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 4: because chances are if you're in that space, you have

755
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 4: some level of power or privilege or knowledge that makes

756
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 4: you better suited to start there. Once you have that

757
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 4: idea and you're listening to people who are saying, yeah,

758
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 4: you know what, like I went to this conference in

759
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 4: nice tree, like crap, and I would really love it

760
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,839
Speaker 4: if organizers would do this. Okay, you have an action now, right,

761
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 4: you have a thing you can join in on, you

762
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 4: can ask about. But once your knowledge deepens about that

763
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: and you start to see how it works, you'll be

764
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 4: surprised at how quickly you can apply that to other spaces.

765
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 4: And you can hear other people talking about what problems

766
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 4: they're having, and you'll have a reference and you can

767
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 4: be like, oh, you know what, that is actually so

768
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 4: similar to how it's set up in the knitting space.

769
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 4: You know, let me me support you with any way

770
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 4: I can, and I get it now, and I'm not

771
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 4: starting from scratch, right, And it's a great way to start.

772
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 4: And you know, even in the book, you have people

773
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 4: like Ian Head in the book, Who's you know, foundation

774
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 4: for his incredibly meaningful legal aid work helping you know,

775
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 4: incarcerated people advocate for themselves and helping to you know,

776
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 4: get the important verdicts on stopping frisk policing started with

777
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 4: his love of hip hop. You know, it's started because

778
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 4: he loved to wrap right and delving into that and saying,

779
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: what is happening? What is the reality for these musicians

780
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 4: that I love who are trying to, you know, really

781
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: tell me what's going on and what can I do here?

782
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 4: And branching from there, you know, ended up with a

783
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 4: lifelong passion and mission that he has found incredibly rewarding

784
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 4: and has had real measurable impacts on community. So I

785
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 4: think it's so important for people to recognize that, you know,

786
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:05,440
Speaker 4: wherever people exist in systems like these issues happen, and

787
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 4: therefore it matters that we address it. So it doesn't

788
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 4: always have to be I'm going to look at who's

789
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 4: the president and I'm going to focus here, or I'm

790
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 4: only going to focus on police brutality. It's I can

791
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 4: focus in my one space because every day people are

792
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 4: being impacted, and it will give me the context to

793
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 4: also be able to stand in solidarity on these other

794
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 4: larger issues.

795
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break, we'll come back. We'll keep talking,

796
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 1: and we're back. And you know, we've been covering this

797
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: show has been we've been doing this daily show for

798
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: a long time, and you know, covering the incredibly consistent

799
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: energy pushing back against ideas like defund the police and

800
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: abolitionism coming from places like the New York Times, you know,

801
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: places that coming into adulthood, I had been told where

802
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: like liberal or progressive, And it feels like there's a

803
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 1: lot of parts of the mainstream media that have kind

804
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 1: of pushed past the idea of defunding the police, like

805
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: it's settled law among people that like defund the police

806
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 1: was bad politics, Like everybody heard James Carvill say it,

807
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,240
Speaker 1: and they're like, well, I guess guess that's true.

808
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: If that old swamp creature says it, that old snake

809
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 2: say it, then I don't like that. Yeah, that's backwards idea.

810
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: But how I'd just be curious to hear from you

811
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: on like, how are you seeing progress made in the

812
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: fight for abolishing the current system of like policing and

813
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 1: human caging. Maybe just talking about like what is abolitionism

814
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: currently as you see it, and what are the areas

815
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: that abolitionists are currently working on.

816
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, I would say it's incredibly broad abolitionism.

817
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 4: You know, people have multiple understanding of understandings of it,

818
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: but the one I worked from is abolitionism is the

819
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 4: fight to end enslavement, incarceration, and the exploitation of people

820
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 4: that is based in the model of chattel slavery. And

821
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,080
Speaker 4: so what we are in is a continuation of that

822
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 4: of chattel slavery and that exploitation of people, in the

823
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 4: imprisonment and enslavement of people, and we see it in

824
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: the ways in which our systems have built. Now, that

825
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 4: is broad, because we actually see that in our mental

826
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,239
Speaker 4: health system, we see this in our quote unquote child

827
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 4: welfare system, and we see it in our incarceration systems,

828
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 4: in our school systems. And so there are a lot

829
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 4: of different places to fight this and say, you know,

830
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 4: people have the right to their own autonomy. We don't

831
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 4: have the right to say that only certain people deserve freedom,

832
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,319
Speaker 4: deserve liberation, deserve a second chance, deserve to learn and

833
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: grow and change and be a part of community, and

834
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 4: that we will look at the problems we face as

835
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 4: a community and with the fundamental belief that as a

836
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 4: community we can solve it because these problems don't exist

837
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 4: in a vacuum. If these problems are rooted in society

838
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,760
Speaker 4: and community, in our systems, then we can solve them.

839
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 4: And I think that that is fundamental to this work.

840
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 4: And so you know a lot of people will try

841
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 4: to fight that and say, you know, with fear mongering, well,

842
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 4: if there's no cops tomorrow, what are you going to do?

843
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,080
Speaker 4: As if there isn't a process, isn't the system? And

844
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 4: often I would say, you know that fear mongering glazes

845
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 4: over how incredibly brutal the reality is, right, which is

846
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 4: that you know, we have a system that does nothing

847
00:44:55,640 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 4: to deter harm our crime, that is stealing away large

848
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 4: percentages of our population, that is leading to the deaths

849
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 4: of hundreds, if not thousands of people by police officers

850
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 4: every year, that is leading to the thefts of children

851
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 4: from black, brown and Indigenous homes, That is leading to

852
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 4: the forced treatment and incarceration of mentally ill people. And

853
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 4: we're not safer, We're no safer, right, and so this

854
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 4: idea that trying something new would be worse how much.

855
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 2: Yeah than this.

856
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a system that like insert you know, exports

857
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: brutality into the world that we live in, right.

858
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 4: And reinforces societal inequities that create brutality, that create harm

859
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 4: and violence, and you know, and I think that's why

860
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,840
Speaker 4: we're forced at all of these you know, stories and

861
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: cop shows of if it weren't for a cop, you know.

862
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 4: And I think one of the most important things that

863
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 4: was said to me by Jenia Kahn years back. You

864
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 4: were talking and they said, you know, cops can't prevent crime,

865
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 4: they can only respond after it's happened. And yet we

866
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 4: act as if that's the eposoite, like you can't you know,

867
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 4: unharm someone with a police officer, and if anything, they're

868
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 4: showing up and creating a whole new level of crime.

869
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 4: And so this idea that it would make us safer

870
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 4: just doesn't make any sense. And so I think it's

871
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 4: important to recognize, like that there's something so deeply hopeful

872
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 4: and beautiful and abolitionism in that fundamentally it believes in people,

873
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 4: like it believes that we can actually solve this that

874
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 4: no one is irredeemable, that we can look at societal

875
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,319
Speaker 4: issues and address them and change the way that we

876
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 4: relate to each other, that we can heal each other,

877
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,919
Speaker 4: and that yes, we can address safety at the same time.

878
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 4: And it doesn't mean it's perfect, but oh my goodness,

879
00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,080
Speaker 4: what we have right now is is causing more harm

880
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 4: than good. And so that means that there's so many

881
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 4: different ways in which we can do this work, and

882
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,720
Speaker 4: you can pick different spots, and yeah, it can seem

883
00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 4: like we'll never get there right that we're not going

884
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 4: to have a time where there aren't policing, But every

885
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 4: time that we can kind of remove the task given

886
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 4: to policing InCAR thural systems, every time that we can

887
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 4: dismantle pieces of it and strengthen alternatives, we're doing really

888
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 4: important abolitionists work. And we can do that and still

889
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 4: say this shouldn't exist. So I always say that, like,

890
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 4: it is abolitionists to say I don't want cops in schools.

891
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 4: It's abolitionists to say that, you know, people need to

892
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,680
Speaker 4: be given alternatives to incarceration. It is abolitionists to say

893
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 4: that people shouldn't be given, you know, forced treatment for

894
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: mental health issues against their will. It is abolitionists to

895
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 4: do all of these. And I can say that work

896
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,319
Speaker 4: for and saying I don't want any cops, you know,

897
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 4: I can say that right while also working towards these

898
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 4: things that are available to me right now.

899
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I think especially when it relates to policing, right,

900
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,360
Speaker 2: and we, like you said, the status quo is violence

901
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: is dysfunction is increased harm. It's not solution based, it's

902
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 2: not about identifying root causes. Yet so many people are

903
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:17,479
Speaker 2: so frightened to make the change that like the fear

904
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 2: instantly turns like passionate defenses of the status quot. So

905
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: then the next thing that you get offered, especially from

906
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 2: legislators politicians, is our reforms. Right, and we talk a

907
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: lot about reform is not we're just We're just you're

908
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: just putting different, a different code of paint on the

909
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,320
Speaker 2: same problem. How do you sort of like balance obviously

910
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: the need for these kinds of like deeper changes or

911
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: these different like different kind of emphasis alongside like the reforms,

912
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: because a lot of the times you get these sort

913
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 2: of these debates now where people are like, well, don't

914
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 2: let the perfect be the enemy the good. They're saying

915
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,240
Speaker 2: they're built and cops to use a slightly lighter baton

916
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 2: or something, and we're supposed to be like, oh, okay, yes, sure,

917
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 2: but like, how do we sort of in a world

918
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 2: where if people are so focused and able to say, like, no,

919
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: like a lot of our crime is because of desperation

920
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 2: or lack of support. That's what we need to be doing.

921
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:14,719
Speaker 2: I don't want to hear about anything unless I mean

922
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:16,800
Speaker 2: talk to me when we're getting rid of qualified immunity

923
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: or something like that. How do you how should people

924
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 2: sort of like look at this balance of understanding what glacial,

925
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 2: incremental sort of reform can do versus trying to like,

926
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 2: for lack of a better word, hope for something revolutionary,

927
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 2: something different, something that's sort of upending the status quo.

928
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 4: That's a great question, and it is something that we

929
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 4: talk about in the book. It's so vital that we

930
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 4: understand the difference between like true liberation, liberatory work, and

931
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 4: harm reduction and recognize what's neither, because a lot of

932
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 4: what we say is police reform is neither harm reduction

933
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 4: or liberatory work, and we have to say, at least

934
00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 4: give us some harm reduction, right, So it's really important

935
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 4: to listen to the people most impact by it, and

936
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 4: people who are actually you know, experts on this from

937
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 4: the perspective of communities harmed, right, and say no, this

938
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,839
Speaker 4: doesn't work, and we know this doesn't work, and listen

939
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 4: to that and be really really clear, because people will

940
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 4: sell you anything and call it revolutionary, and then we

941
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 4: will they'll label, you know, harm reduction as like this

942
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 4: huge attack on the system and we're not even getting

943
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 4: to like the meat of it. Harm reduction matters, absolutely matters,

944
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:35,120
Speaker 4: because the truth is is, if we have these long term,

945
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 4: big goals, we have to be alive to get there, right.

946
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 4: But that means we have to be honest about what

947
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 4: it is. And so you know, when first of all,

948
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 4: if it's offered to us by the system, throw it away.

949
00:50:53,080 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: You got that idea, Oh okay.

950
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 4: We don't want that, right, You got to listen. We

951
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 4: have to listen and listen to the communities who've been

952
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 4: building alternatives, right, because communities wouldn't we build alternatives. Some

953
00:51:07,200 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 4: of those are revolutionary, some of those are harm reduction, right,

954
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,720
Speaker 4: And so we already kind of know what direction works

955
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 4: and what direction doesn't. And so when it comes to

956
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 4: issues that are as big as like policing and say

957
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:20,239
Speaker 4: we would hate you know, we don't want this system here.

958
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,240
Speaker 4: You know. Harm reduction, you know, would be things like one,

959
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 4: you know, getting police out of officers out of schools. Right,

960
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 4: the systems still exist, but we don't need the officers

961
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:32,879
Speaker 4: in schools. Studies have shown time and time again that

962
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 4: you know, it leads to an increase in arrests of

963
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 4: black and brown and indigenous and disabled students with no

964
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 4: actual reduction in harm. And it's not in whether they're

965
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 4: you know, arrested, has no ties to violence in schools,

966
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 4: drugs and schools or anything like that. It's just do

967
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,360
Speaker 4: you have black students? Do you have cops? Now? We

968
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 4: have more black students arrested, so we know it doesn't work, right,

969
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 4: So harm reduction would be you know, getting them out,

970
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 4: and that isn't you know, it's an abolitionist practice in

971
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 4: that it is, you know, getting them out, but it's

972
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 4: not getting rid of the system. Other ones would be

973
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:07,319
Speaker 4: you know, before you start referring making calls kicking kids

974
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 4: out of school and getting them in these pipelines, you

975
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 4: know what who oversees that? Right? Who approves that? What

976
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 4: records do you have? Whatever things are you trying first?

977
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 4: Those are all things that are really important to look

978
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 4: at while staying while recognizing if the system still stays

979
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 4: in place, it's not getting rid of the system, and

980
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 4: so we can work towards that, push towards that don't

981
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 4: accept anything that re entrenches the system. And so retraining

982
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 4: always re entrenches the system. Retraining is never going to

983
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 4: be a harm reduction. It's just putting more money into

984
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 4: a system and asking you know, and we've shown that

985
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,920
Speaker 4: they don't come out, you know, gentler kind or more

986
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 4: understanding of community. They come out with more police officers,

987
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 4: you know, and they come out with more levels of

988
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 4: excuses for why they're doing what they're doing. And so

989
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 4: just listening to community on that is really really vital.

990
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 4: But when it comes to every day and if you're

991
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 4: looking at smaller things we can do, you know, if

992
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 4: you live in an area that has cash bail programs,

993
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 4: getting rid of cash bail is one of the most

994
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 4: vital things you can do right now, right you know,

995
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 4: in Washington here we have like pay to stay where

996
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 4: people actually have to pay for their incarceration if they

997
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 4: work out a deal and they want to go in early,

998
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 4: so that they aren't away from their family for three

999
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 4: years and maybe six months, they have to pay for

1000
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 4: every day that they're in there, and so, you know,

1001
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 4: things like that are wild classes basist, and getting rid

1002
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 4: of that doesn't get rid of the system. But it's

1003
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 4: also a really really important step that we can take

1004
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 4: right now to reduce the numbers of people caught up

1005
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 4: in this popular in these systems, and how long they're

1006
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 4: caught up in them, and that gives us what we need,

1007
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 4: the strength we need in community to keep fighting.

1008
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: Just how do you think about the pushback from the

1009
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 1: mainstream media? Just that that's been something that I've tried

1010
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: to get my head around, trying to picture the editorial

1011
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: meetings at these you know, major journalistic institutions where they decide,

1012
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: let's go with this story where the police are the

1013
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:13,359
Speaker 1: only source for the information. Do you think of that

1014
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:20,880
Speaker 1: as being put in place by powers, like architecturally structured

1015
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 1: to put this power in place, Because I also feel

1016
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 1: like there's also some some desire for that narrative coming

1017
00:54:29,120 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: from below also, like from the readership, And I'm just wondering,

1018
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 1: like how you think about that, Hey, does that inform

1019
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: how how you approach people when you're trying to talk

1020
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: to them about you know, the car soural system and

1021
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: you know, things like that. There's this big infrastructure of

1022
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,439
Speaker 1: power and money that is like trying to keep these

1023
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 1: institutions in place. But then there's also people who are

1024
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:01,280
Speaker 1: just like really quick to believe the the bullshit stories.

1025
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,399
Speaker 1: And I don't know if it's because that's what they've

1026
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:08,399
Speaker 1: always had, if it's because you know, it preserves their

1027
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: feeling of superiority and protection, but just just interested to

1028
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:14,799
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts on that.

1029
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,760
Speaker 4: I think it's a mix of things, right. So one,

1030
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 4: I do think that if people were, you know, if

1031
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 4: the reality of systemic oppression were laid bare for all people,

1032
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 4: and the way in which people have been made to

1033
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 4: participate in the impression of others was laid bare for

1034
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 4: all people, that people would decline to participate in that,

1035
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 4: especially if they were able to see how it impacts

1036
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 4: their own personal safety. No one is safe in a

1037
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,080
Speaker 4: police state, whether or not we've been told we are.

1038
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 4: Even if you have privilege, only the very select few are,

1039
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:50,520
Speaker 4: and often that is only for a limited time. But

1040
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 4: you know, that is something that people don't want, and

1041
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 4: so that is often kept from the people who are

1042
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 4: made to participate most, right, people with the most privileged.

1043
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 4: The reality of how unsafely are is something that many

1044
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 4: of us can't escape, you know, and which is why

1045
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 4: we're often the first and the most outspoken about trying

1046
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 4: to change it. But that unsafety exists for everyone, and

1047
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 4: that culpability exists, and people want to avoid it, and

1048
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 4: people have been protected from it, and they're you know,

1049
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,160
Speaker 4: their bellies are soft to it, you know what I mean,

1050
00:56:21,239 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 4: Like they're they don't they haven't built up that tolerance

1051
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 4: for it and have been told that they would fall

1052
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,840
Speaker 4: apart if they knew the reality that they couldn't handle it,

1053
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,840
Speaker 4: and they're fed a constant diet of fear. When we

1054
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 4: look at our media, and this constant fear of the other,

1055
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 4: fear of this danger that is pumped into people. Right

1056
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 4: we look at these shows where it's just this random

1057
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 4: person gets a thirst for blood and is out murdering

1058
00:56:43,880 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 4: people who's going to come help you, or you know,

1059
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 4: like this, you know gang violence where the gang leaders

1060
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 4: are just soul as creatures who popped out of nowhere

1061
00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 4: and they're going to take over your city if you don't,

1062
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 4: you know, have this people are fed that and people

1063
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 4: who don't have that firsthand experience with the reality of

1064
00:57:03,200 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 4: these systems and are living this completely alternate reality and

1065
00:57:06,719 --> 00:57:10,319
Speaker 4: are being told no other reality exists that you know,

1066
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 4: you would feel comfortable calling a cop knowing they could

1067
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,240
Speaker 4: help you get your cat out of a tree or whatever,

1068
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 4: and you'd be safe and everyone would because that's your reality.

1069
00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 4: Challenging that makes the world terrifying, right, It can make

1070
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 4: the world team really terrifying. Challenging how you've been made

1071
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 4: a part of it can seem really terrifying. It can

1072
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 4: make you feel really powerless in a way that you know,

1073
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 4: many of us have never had the luxury of avoiding.

1074
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:40,080
Speaker 4: And people will put up walls around that. And it

1075
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 4: has little to do with intent. It has You can

1076
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 4: say you care, you know, and you love, But if

1077
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:48,720
Speaker 4: you're not actively challenging these ideas and willing to sit

1078
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 4: with that discomfort, then you'll have a problem. And people

1079
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 4: don't want to hear it, right, People really don't want

1080
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 4: to hear it. They don't want it to land on

1081
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 4: their doorstep. If they are thinking about things like police brutality,

1082
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 4: they want the name of the one cop that they

1083
00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 4: can yell at and blame because if it's a system

1084
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 4: and they're, you know, paying taxes into that system, if

1085
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 4: they've been supporting that system, if they voted for the

1086
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 4: candidate who said they'll bring law and order and safety

1087
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 4: to their area, knowing that that men it would increase

1088
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 4: cops in black and brown communities, right, then there's a

1089
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 4: whole level of culpability. And if that thing that they've

1090
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 4: been pouring money and effort into would endanger their disabled child,

1091
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 4: they don't want to know. They don't want that, they

1092
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 4: don't want that reality, and so it's really important that

1093
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,960
Speaker 4: we challenge it while also showing that people are building

1094
00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:43,959
Speaker 4: alternatives and that idea that we could build something else

1095
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 4: is kept from a lot of people who've never had to.

1096
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 4: And so it's always wild to me when people say, well,

1097
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 4: what are you going to do? You know, what are

1098
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 4: you going to do? If someone read you, that's the

1099
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 4: thing people say a lot to me, right, especially as woman,

1100
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 4: people will weaponize that against me. And then like, first

1101
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 4: of all, I'm absolutely a survivor of sexual assault. Many

1102
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:05,960
Speaker 4: women have been, and please do anything right and my healing,

1103
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 4: my sense of safety came from the practices that, like

1104
00:59:10,400 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 4: my black and Brown community had to build to try

1105
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:16,919
Speaker 4: to address this because we always knew that we weren't

1106
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 4: going to find safety in the system, and we weren't

1107
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 4: going to find repair in the system. And so, you know,

1108
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,479
Speaker 4: those kind of ideas, these things that are thrown out

1109
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:29,320
Speaker 4: erases the fact that right now, the you know, a

1110
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,720
Speaker 4: large segment of blackground and indigenous populations, queer and trans

1111
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:37,800
Speaker 4: populations absolutely know that they could never find safety in

1112
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 4: our systems and they have to build elsewhere, and they

1113
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 4: have been, but that is completely erased. You know, the

1114
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 4: ways in which we solve conflict is erased, the ways

1115
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 4: in which we ensure safety is erased, the way in

1116
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:51,520
Speaker 4: which we heal each other and ourselves has been erased.

1117
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 4: And it all comes down to you have to trust

1118
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 4: this person with a gun. Nothing else has been done,

1119
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 4: nothing else can work. And so media I think plays

1120
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 4: a huge part in that they're invested in that because one,

1121
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 4: they personally don't want to investigate that, and I've talked

1122
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 4: with editors, you know, as a writer, who don't personally

1123
01:00:06,680 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 4: want to investigate it. They want to keep it in

1124
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 4: a comfortable place for them. But also they have funders

1125
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:15,720
Speaker 4: who are systemically you know, invested in this, and there

1126
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 4: is a real backlash four people publicly taking a stand

1127
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 4: and saying we're going to address the real roots of this.

1128
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 4: People have been made to pay, and I do think

1129
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 4: that people are afraid of that and afraid of challenging

1130
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 4: those assumptions.

1131
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the most like one of

1132
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 2: sort of inspiring passages for me or just to just

1133
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 2: to kind of put everything into perspective, right, because we

1134
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,480
Speaker 2: started off being like revolution just feel like this scary

1135
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:42,760
Speaker 2: idea and like, even though I know like we need

1136
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 2: to actually look out for everybody, true liberation is only

1137
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 2: when every single person is liberated, like even if they

1138
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:50,400
Speaker 2: don't look like me or not part of my community.

1139
01:00:51,000 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 2: That there was I think it was Miriam Caaba who

1140
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,040
Speaker 2: you were saying, like which really put this into perspective,

1141
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 2: was like it's it's not about like these big things, right,

1142
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: It's like I might be butchering the quote, but it's

1143
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 2: just about taking out removing just the bricks of like

1144
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 2: these oppressive systems. It doesn't have to be a wrecking

1145
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,200
Speaker 2: ball type moment, because if if everybody's taken a brick

1146
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:16,160
Speaker 2: out one by one for themselves, shit will start crumbling.

1147
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 2: That's just there's just no way for something structurally to

1148
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,000
Speaker 2: keep it structural integrity if we're always like just kind

1149
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 2: of picking away at it. And I think that's a

1150
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 2: really important message for I think, and I really encourage

1151
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 2: our listeners to really, uh to check your book out,

1152
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 2: because we are in such a time right now where

1153
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 2: I feel like everyone feels like they're banging their heads

1154
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:38,080
Speaker 2: against a wall and they're like, I'm seeing this happen

1155
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: right now, am I Like, but we're not doing the

1156
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 2: right things. And I think it really is an empowering

1157
01:01:43,280 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 2: message a to see these other stories of people who

1158
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 2: a lot of are starting from absolute powerlessness and then

1159
01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 2: opening the door to something really really substantive and really

1160
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: monumental without necessarily that being the initial intention of it,

1161
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 2: of just it's more just about advocating for yourself. So

1162
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 2: I really thank you for putting all of these stories

1163
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 2: together and your words around it. Because as someone who's done,

1164
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 2: like worked from all over the political spectrum, from being

1165
01:02:11,200 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 2: a lobbyist to being like in the streets and things

1166
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:16,480
Speaker 2: like that, I've always sort of grappled with these feelings

1167
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 2: of like where my power lies or how I can

1168
01:02:18,920 --> 01:02:22,720
Speaker 2: actually exercise that and what it means to be revolutionary

1169
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: or not. And I think it makes it a very

1170
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,400
Speaker 2: accessible way and I think is very powerful, I think

1171
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,600
Speaker 2: for people to understand that it's just about these small actions,

1172
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,760
Speaker 2: because they all like, we can't just think we can't.

1173
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,720
Speaker 2: We have to get out of like the superhero mentality

1174
01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:36,320
Speaker 2: of them, like I'm going to figure it out by

1175
01:02:36,360 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: myself right now. Rather than can I contribute to a

1176
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,360
Speaker 2: community that's doing well, can I from my space say,

1177
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 2: you know what, maybe we don't need funding that's contingent

1178
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 2: upon us interacting with the police to keep our nonprofit going,

1179
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I just again I

1180
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 2: feel like, thank you for putting this book out, and yeah,

1181
01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:59,600
Speaker 2: it's really great to just be able to speak with

1182
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 2: you today. It's just been really eye opening and I'm

1183
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 2: sure our listeners have had the same experience too.

1184
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, truly a pleasure. Thank you for coming on. All right,

1185
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:09,760
Speaker 1: we'll have to have you back on again. Yeah, but

1186
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:11,959
Speaker 1: thank you for writing this book, Thank you for coming

1187
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,600
Speaker 1: on to talk to us about it. Where can people

1188
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 1: find the book? Find you all that good stuff.

1189
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 4: You can find the book anywhere books are sold. I

1190
01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 4: highly make command if you're buying online, go to bookshop

1191
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 4: dot org or your local indie store or libro sm

1192
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 4: if you listen to your audiobooks because those all support

1193
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 4: our independent booksellers, which is super important. And you can

1194
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:34,960
Speaker 4: find me. All you have to know is have spell

1195
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 4: my name. I figure you learn that you can find

1196
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 4: me on social media. Everything is under my name. You

1197
01:03:39,920 --> 01:03:43,080
Speaker 4: can find my substack, you can find my Instagram, you

1198
01:03:43,120 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 4: can find my Facebook. And I just hope that people

1199
01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 4: love the book, engage with it and find their own

1200
01:03:50,240 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 4: little piece of revolution that they can be a part of.

1201
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's I j E O m A O l

1202
01:03:56,840 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 6: uo for people looking to spell amazing. Is there a

1203
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 6: work a media that you've been enjoying.

1204
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have been really loving the So for me

1205
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 4: like kind of relaxing, finding a little bit of joy.

1206
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:16,280
Speaker 4: Is this segment of like young black male fashion influencers

1207
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:24,280
Speaker 4: who are really embracing, like really colorful, flamboyant fashion, skirts, heels, suits, cosplay,

1208
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 4: kind of turning it all into their own thing in

1209
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 4: a way that I feel like only the black community

1210
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 4: really can and I love them. So I have just

1211
01:04:32,960 --> 01:04:35,280
Speaker 4: been you know, wisdom k is like when I think

1212
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 4: of the pops to mind right away. But there's a

1213
01:04:36,880 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 4: lot of like these young early twenties black men who

1214
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 4: are like, you know what, I want to wear clothes,

1215
01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 4: and I just want to wear things that are beautiful.

1216
01:04:44,720 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 4: And I'm going to be walking around the streets of

1217
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,680
Speaker 4: New York in this beautiful thing from head to toe

1218
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 4: and I'm gonna blog it and I want people to

1219
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:55,760
Speaker 4: see it. And I just that itself, you know, every

1220
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:59,480
Speaker 4: day for our community, where so much of our definitions

1221
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:03,280
Speaker 4: of my masculinity you have been externally imposed upon us.

1222
01:05:04,000 --> 01:05:06,680
Speaker 4: To have this younger generation say, actually, this is what

1223
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 4: this looks like for me, and I'm going to define

1224
01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:12,919
Speaker 4: it proudly and show it for other people to find

1225
01:05:12,960 --> 01:05:16,600
Speaker 4: their own definition of self is also a really revolutionary

1226
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:17,960
Speaker 4: thing while also being beautiful.

1227
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: Look at Amazing Miles. Where can people find you? Is

1228
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: there a workimedia you've been enjoying?

1229
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram when

1230
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 2: other at based platforms at Miles of Gray. Find Jack

1231
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 2: and I on our basketball podcast, Miles and jackobat host Tea.

1232
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 2: If you like something a little casual, check out my

1233
01:05:37,000 --> 01:05:40,600
Speaker 2: ninety Day Fiance podcast for twenty day Fiance and let's

1234
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 2: see a tweet I like is from Socialist Sopranos memes

1235
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 2: at gobble ghoul Marks. It's a picture of Polly talking

1236
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 2: to Tony and he's got his hands up and he says,

1237
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 2: all I'm saying, Tea is if they're gonna nominate Barbie

1238
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 2: for Best Picture, they probably should have nominated some of them.

1239
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 2: Broad's that was involved capture the the angst of all

1240
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:07,080
Speaker 2: the Oscar snuffs in the way Socialist Sopranos Memes only

1241
01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 2: knows how tweet I've been enjoying is just Kevin Durant's

1242
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 2: response to finding out that Joe El Embiid scored seventy

1243
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,440
Speaker 2: points last week. I don't know.

1244
01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 1: This one really stuck with me. Kevin Durant is my

1245
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: favorite basketball fan. He's like obviously one of the best

1246
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:28,439
Speaker 1: players of all time, but he just gets his look

1247
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 1: of like kind of I don't know, joy and he

1248
01:06:32,400 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: just like kind of gets this thousand yard staris like

1249
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:39,120
Speaker 1: he turned seventy al was like so excited and just

1250
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: a great moment to appreciate. What a great basketball fan,

1251
01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:49,600
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant. Yeah, you can find me on Twitter at

1252
01:06:49,680 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: Jack Underscore. O'Brian. You can find us on Twitter at

1253
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 1: daily Zeikeeist. We're at the Daily Zeigeist on Instagram.

1254
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 2: We have a Facebook fan page and a website daily

1255
01:06:57,880 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 2: zeikeist dot com, where we post our episode and our footnote.

1256
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,840
Speaker 1: We link off to the information that we talked about

1257
01:07:03,880 --> 01:07:06,720
Speaker 1: in today's episode, as well as a song that we

1258
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: think you might enjoy.

1259
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: Wow, is there a song that you think people might

1260
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: have done? Yeah, Two of some of my favorite producers

1261
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,400
Speaker 2: DJs get together every now and then. That's Kareem Riggins

1262
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 2: and mad Lib and they do this little project called

1263
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:24,120
Speaker 2: the Jahari Massamba Unit, and it's just a blend of

1264
01:07:24,160 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 2: their you know, jazzy hip hop sort of roots with

1265
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:29,520
Speaker 2: a little bit like African rhythm. So this track is

1266
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 2: called Masamba Apun Dance a Fu and d a Ncee

1267
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:35,960
Speaker 2: and it's just a great track. And if you like

1268
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 2: Kareem Riggins or mad Lib on their own, you'll definitely

1269
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: love them together on this one. So this one now,

1270
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 2: all right?

1271
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: We will look off to that in the footnotes. The

1272
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 1: Daily Zeitgeis is a production of iHeart Radio. For more

1273
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:48,440
Speaker 1: podcast from my Heart Radio is the ihart radio app,

1274
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:50,600
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows

1275
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 1: that is gonna do it for us this morning, back

1276
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:56,120
Speaker 1: this afternoon to tell you what is trending, and we

1277
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:57,040
Speaker 1: will talk to you all then.

1278
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 2: Bye bye,