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Speaker 1: Welcome to Daily Variety, your daily dose of news and

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Speaker 1: analysis for entertainment industry insiders. It's Thursday, February fifth, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six. I'm your host, Cynthia Lyttleton. I am co

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Speaker 1: editor in chief of Variety alongside Ramin Sutuda. I'm in

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Speaker 1: LA He's in New York, and Righty has reporters around

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Speaker 1: the world covering the business of entertainment. In today's episode,

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Speaker 1: we'll hear from Vriety's Daniel Dedario on his latest cover story,

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Speaker 1: which goes behind the scenes on Ryan Murphy's latest FX series,

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Speaker 1: Love Story. It focuses on the relationship between John F.

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Speaker 1: Kennedy Junior and the woman who became his wife, Carolyn Bissett.

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Speaker 1: And after that, Variety's Jennifer Moss discusses the world of

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Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons and how this very old role playing

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Speaker 1: game has become a huge business for independent streaming platforms.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, here are a few

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Speaker 1: headlines just in this morning that you need to know.

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Speaker 1: Neon has picked up the rights to the Sundance film

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Speaker 1: Once Upon a Time in Harlem. It got rave reviews

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Speaker 1: coming out of the festival last month. Amazon Prime Video

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Speaker 1: is trying it again with the Grand Tour, the Automotive

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Speaker 1: TRAVELOG series that was previously hosted by the top Gear

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Speaker 1: trio of Richard Hammond, Jeremy Clarkson and James May. It's

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Speaker 1: coming back with three new hosts, Francis Bourgeois, Thomas Holland

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Speaker 1: and James Engelsman. Open AI chief Sam Altman took to

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Speaker 1: social media to air his complaints about the Super Bowl

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Speaker 1: ad that is coming from his biggest AI rival, Anthropic.

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Speaker 1: This quickly has turned into a sporting event for people

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Speaker 1: in the sector. All of these stories and so much

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Speaker 1: more can be found on Variety dot com right now

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Speaker 1: and now it's time for conversations with Friday journalists about

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Speaker 1: news and ties, friends and show business. Daniel Didario, Variety's

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Speaker 1: chief correspondent, details his latest cover story, which is all

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Speaker 1: about the latest installment of FX's love story anthology series franchise.

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Speaker 1: This time around, it's a dive back into the recent

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Speaker 1: pass to look at the bright light that was JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior and his marriage to Carolyn Bissett before tragedy struck.

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Speaker 1: Like all things with the Kennedys, this series that premieres

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Speaker 1: on February twelfth has already been subject to a lot

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Speaker 1: of public scrutiny. Daniel de Dario, thanks again for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Of course, thanks for having me well.

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Speaker 1: This time the assignment was time travel back to the

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Speaker 1: late nineties and to do a deep dive on the

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Speaker 1: latest from the Ryan Murphy shop for FX, the latest

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Speaker 1: in his love story franchise.

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Speaker 2: JFK.

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Speaker 1: Junior and Carolyn Bissett. We captured incredible images of star

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Speaker 1: Paul Anthony Kelly, who is really making his big debut,

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Speaker 1: and Sarah Pigeon, who impressed in a number of things

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Speaker 1: in the last couple of years. Going in, what was

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Speaker 1: your POV? What did you think the heart of this

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Speaker 1: story was going to be? And what did you find

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Speaker 1: it to be?

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Speaker 3: I expected it to be a personality profile of these

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Speaker 3: two very engaging, compelling actors of the very difficult challenge

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Speaker 3: of playing real people who really lived in living memory.

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Speaker 3: And they were extremely forthcoming, generous with their time and

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Speaker 3: their insights. The more dealt into the craft of this show,

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Speaker 3: the more interested I was. The listeners may remember that

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Speaker 3: last summer images from the set became public and there's

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Speaker 3: a bit of an uproar because the fashions of Carolyn

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Speaker 3: Bessett Kennedy especially so well remembered, and it just didn't

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Speaker 3: have the accurate look. It felt like something was missing,

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Speaker 3: and the production responded, bringing in a new costumer who

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Speaker 3: whipped them into shape. And now it is a really

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Speaker 3: loving tribute not just to these people, but to an

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Speaker 3: entire era of celebrity and political culture. And I felt

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Speaker 3: as though that level of craft and love, as in

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Speaker 3: the performances, as in the writing by showruner Connor Hines,

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Speaker 3: it just kind of suffused every level of a production.

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Speaker 2: It was a pleasure to write.

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Speaker 1: About another example where there is so much intense interest

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Speaker 1: in these kinds of thing. Did you get the sense,

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Speaker 1: in talking to Connor and others that they were at

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Speaker 1: all resentful about the fact that those early looks got

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Speaker 1: out and the response was so bad, or did did

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Speaker 1: they feel like, wow, they did some focus groups for

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Speaker 1: us before we'd even shot a frame, or as we

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Speaker 1: were just starting to shoot.

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Speaker 3: I think, from this vantage point I spoke to them

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Speaker 3: after that had all played out, I think there's a

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Speaker 3: retroactive feeling of like, while it may not have been comfortable,

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Speaker 3: we're glad it happened because it allowed them to regroup.

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Speaker 3: I will also say that I think for Sarah Pigeon,

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Speaker 3: especially the level of interest. We all know what street

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Speaker 3: shoots in New York are like. It's on public view

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Speaker 3: and very visible in tons of onlookers gawking. She's also

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Speaker 3: so playing a character whose life comes to be controlled

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Speaker 3: by the paparazzi interest in her.

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Speaker 2: And so she told me that it brought her.

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Speaker 3: Closer into the experience that Carolyn had in her life

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Speaker 3: by the kind of pursuit and the feeling that she

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Speaker 3: was being scrutinized, which she never really had been before.

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Speaker 1: I did an interview years ago with Brooks Shields, who

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Speaker 1: really broke down what it felt like to be quite

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Speaker 1: frankly hunted by a pack of paparazzi, and I never

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Speaker 1: forgot it. And then she said, especially around her daughters

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Speaker 1: when she was out in New York with her daughter.

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Speaker 1: Of course, that's you know, late nineties and fast forward.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like the world we've all become Paparazzo's right,

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Speaker 1: we all have the phone in our hand. Did you

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Speaker 1: get a sense from talking to Connor and others about

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Speaker 1: sort of how they dealt with the larger Kennedy mystique

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Speaker 1: or do they feel like this is inevitably imbued with

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Speaker 1: all of jack John F. Kennedy, Jackie Kennedy, and all

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Speaker 1: of that that larger aura that the Kennedy family has.

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Speaker 3: It's an interesting question because in life, John F. Kennedy

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Speaker 3: Junior wore his celebrity lightly. He was suffused with the

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Speaker 3: aura of his family, but he tried to do his

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Speaker 3: own thing and be his own kind of person. And

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Speaker 3: so the show, similarly, I think, looks for the people

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Speaker 3: within the majesty, and I think it does a very

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Speaker 3: elegant job of prising out real characters who we think

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Speaker 3: of as people in their own right, over and above

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Speaker 3: the fact that their last name is Kennedy.

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Speaker 1: Is it mostly told from the Carolyn Bassett pov or

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Speaker 1: is it a little more omnipotent.

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Speaker 3: Eventually the point of view becomes merged because they're a

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Speaker 3: couple that comes together and is eventually married. I would

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Speaker 3: say at the beginning we get equal time from both

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Speaker 3: points of view. We yet we spend some time with

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Speaker 3: Carolyn and we spend some time with John as the

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Speaker 3: pair kind of circling one another.

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Speaker 1: Well as often with these things, looking back at how

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Speaker 1: attitudes have changed, your story really did a good job

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Speaker 1: of making me think about how back then, more than

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Speaker 1: twenty five years ago, what it would have been like

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Speaker 1: to be very high up at Calvin Klein, but nonetheless

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Speaker 1: to be plucked from that where you're still basically a

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Speaker 1: private person in the world, where there's like serious discussion

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Speaker 1: of what color nail polish you meet, what color polish

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Speaker 1: you need to wear to meet your in laws on

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Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard, anything else, Dan that stands out to you

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Speaker 1: in terms of what you observed, because you've got to

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Speaker 1: see some filming of this project, and it was.

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Speaker 2: Great seeing them filming on location.

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Speaker 3: One of the benefits of Tribeca is that it has

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Speaker 3: restaurants and bars that haven't really changed since the is

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Speaker 3: that was a very fun day. I would just say,

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Speaker 3: I think as we think about the future of Disney

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Speaker 3: with their kind of leadership transition, you know, FX is

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Speaker 3: part of that. It came to be within the Disney

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Speaker 3: Corporation with the twenty nineteen merger, and I think a

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Speaker 3: lot of people weren't sure what was going to happen

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Speaker 3: and if it was just going to go away. To

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Speaker 3: his credit, John Landgraf has really protected that brand and

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Speaker 3: part of how he's done that is by using the

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Speaker 3: resources at his disposal. I don't think I know a

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Speaker 3: show like Shogun or like Alien Earth, which are so

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Speaker 3: resource intensive would not have been on their air six

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Speaker 3: years ago. This as well, I think this uses the

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Speaker 3: Ryan Murphy who's had a relationship with FX for more

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Speaker 3: than twenty years. But it's a very resource intensive version

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Speaker 3: of the Ryan Murphy vision. It is no expense was

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Speaker 3: spared and conjuring the nineties.

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Speaker 1: The Ryan Murphy organization is famous for being exacting in

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Speaker 1: its standards, whether it's contemporary or period. And again, listeners,

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait for you to see the photos. They

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Speaker 1: look fantastic. I can't let you go without talking about

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Speaker 1: Paul Anthony Kelly, who plays jfk. What a way to

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Speaker 1: make an entest.

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Speaker 2: Plucked from the chorus.

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Speaker 3: Yes, indeed, I mean it is his first ever role

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Speaker 3: in anything, and I think that he'd been wanting to

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Speaker 3: break into acting from the world of modeling, but he'd

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Speaker 3: faced a disappointing setback, which is the audition for the role,

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Speaker 3: and didn't get it. They rejected him. They ultimately had

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Speaker 3: such a hard time casting the role of John F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy Junior that they brought back thirteen actors they had

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Speaker 3: rejected for a Do or Die final castings three weeks

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Speaker 3: before production started, and then he got it on the day,

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Speaker 3: which is very exciting development and it feels like kismet.

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Speaker 3: The problem was they couldn't find anyone with a JFK Junior.

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Speaker 2: Look, he has it. He's great in the part.

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Speaker 1: Can't wait to check it out. For many years, I

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Speaker 1: had the last issue of George magazine at home. It

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Speaker 1: was so interesting to see somebody of his stature and

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Speaker 1: caliber put his imprint on a magazine that was very

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Speaker 1: ahead of his time. The fact that he had invested

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Speaker 1: in media showed that I think he knew where the

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Speaker 1: power and the currency was going to be in the future.

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Speaker 1: Such a sad story, but an important story for people

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Speaker 1: to understand this period in time. Dan, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for bringing us this great curtain raiser.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: And now we turned to Jennifer Moz, Variety's senior writer

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Speaker 1: for TV and video games. She gives us the backstory

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Speaker 1: on how she brought together a meeting of great minds

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Speaker 1: of D and d In Brennan Lee Mulligan of Dimension

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Speaker 1: twenty and Matt Murray Critical Role. These two held a

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Speaker 1: summit of game masters that was turned into a video

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Speaker 1: that has been burning up on Variety's YouTube page. Jennifer Moz,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me. Happy to be

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Speaker 1: here again. You are our navigator into this growing world

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Speaker 1: of truly independent alternative streaming platforms that really have these

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Speaker 1: new forms of entertainment, blending genres and mediums. It's it's

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Speaker 1: very fascinating. You've really got your finger on the pulse

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Speaker 1: of them when you write about them, when you're talking

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Speaker 1: about them. All of a sudden, I see people running

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Speaker 1: around with T shirts, and I see instances of people

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Speaker 1: talking about dropout and platforms like Beacon and the particular

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Speaker 1: show Dimension twenty, I know has incredible sizzle with gen

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Speaker 1: Z and jen Alpha, you are the brains behind the

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Speaker 1: video that we did that brought together none other than

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Speaker 1: Brennan Lee Mulligan of Dimension twenty and Matt Mercer of

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Speaker 1: Critical Role. This is a meeting of the minds that

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Speaker 1: the Internet has truly flocked to. It has been one

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Speaker 1: of the most successful of our original videos in recent memory,

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Speaker 1: and we have at this moment when we're stepping up

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Speaker 1: original video content quite a bit. That's really saying something,

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Speaker 1: When did you conceive the idea of a meeting of

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Speaker 1: the minds, Because you were the brains behind putting this

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Speaker 1: video together.

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Speaker 4: So I'd be lying if I said this wasn't in

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Speaker 4: part inspired by watching our many seasons of AOA and

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Speaker 4: Directors on Directors, because the vision there was looking at

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Speaker 4: this as the same kind of art form and knowing

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Speaker 4: that there is an audience that takes this as seriously

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Speaker 4: as that and those stories that are told in how

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Speaker 4: they're told. So I've been covering Dropout for a while

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Speaker 4: for those who might not know. Dropped Out is the

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Speaker 4: successor to College Humor and run by Sam Raish. Brendley

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Speaker 4: Mulligan is one of the top creators there. He runs

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Speaker 4: to Mention twenty, that's their d D show, and so

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Speaker 4: I've seen Brennan a few times, interviewed him a couple

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Speaker 4: of times for different things to do with drop Out

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Speaker 4: and Dimension twenty, specifically when they did their big live

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Speaker 4: show at Madison Square Garden. I've talked to Brennan for

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Speaker 4: that sold out show. Another showing the power of the

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Speaker 4: D and D community there because all of those people

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Speaker 4: were there to watch people play D and D. So

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Speaker 4: then it also covered Critical Role and what they're doing,

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Speaker 4: and we had the big news of announcing that Brennana

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Speaker 4: Mulligan was going to be coming over to Critical Role

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Speaker 4: and kind of taking over Matt Mercer's job for a

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Speaker 4: season as the head of their show to allow Matt

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Speaker 4: to play as a player. These are two giant shows

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Speaker 4: that are based on D and D fandom, and they

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Speaker 4: have a lot of their own personalizations that they've done

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Speaker 4: over the years to the games to make it much

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Speaker 4: more their own rather than just a straight Wizards of

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Speaker 4: the Coast D and D property. And it's really cool

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Speaker 4: to see how many people were interested in seeing this

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Speaker 4: and everything that they talked about during it.

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Speaker 1: When I was a kid, Dungeons and Dragons was something

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Speaker 1: that was played by bearded Caltech students in the basement

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Speaker 1: of the university. Clearly become much more mass market if

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Speaker 1: you have so much economic activity and so many shows

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Speaker 1: around it. What is it about D and D that

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Speaker 1: captures people's imaginations.

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Speaker 4: I think one thing in particular about these, like they

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Speaker 4: call them, actual play shows, is that you're watching a

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Speaker 4: community of people play a game. And that might sound crazy,

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Speaker 4: but as someone who also covers video games, I know

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Speaker 4: how many people spend time on YouTube watching people play

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Speaker 4: video games. But the underlying reason behind D and D

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Speaker 4: is because it's about storytelling and it's about role playing,

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Speaker 4: and you can do it in any way you want.

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Speaker 4: And these episodes are three four hours long and people

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Speaker 4: watch them and they're interested in them.

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Speaker 5: So I've noticed a few of the comments people are like,

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Speaker 5: I would really love to get into D and D,

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Speaker 5: but I don't have a group to play with, so

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Speaker 5: I watched Dimension twenty or I watch Critical Role because

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Speaker 5: in the playing it, you can.

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Speaker 1: Watch other people playing. Can you play it? Indigestible bites?

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Speaker 1: My memory of again D and D from many, many

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Speaker 1: decades ago was that it was like a commitment people

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Speaker 1: would spend their weekends doing. But there's all different kinds.

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Speaker 1: You can do what they call a one shot, which

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Speaker 1: is we're sitting down, we're going to play through this

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Speaker 1: one part. This is a story, it starts and it

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Speaker 1: ends what you're thinking of. And what's still very much

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Speaker 1: the case is campaigns. And there are campaigns that can

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Speaker 1: go on for fifteen years.

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Speaker 4: That's when you're meeting every weekend and you are planning

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Speaker 4: and you're talking. You've got your characters, and you have

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Speaker 4: years of war behind it, but there are digestible pieces.

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Speaker 4: And the way that they've made the format digestible for

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Speaker 4: their streaming platforms and for audiences is that they will

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Speaker 4: come up with a season.

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Speaker 6: Critical Role is currently in a campaign for Dimension twenty

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Speaker 6: has done a whole bunch and they name their based

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Speaker 6: on whatever the name of the cool thing Brennan's come

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Speaker 6: up with is, and they play that out for the season,

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Speaker 6: and it will have tons of episodes, and they'll be

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Speaker 6: long episodes, but they do.

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Speaker 2: Come to end.

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Speaker 4: But they've had to plan it like TV seasons at

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Speaker 4: that point, so that they can tell people this will

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Speaker 4: end and this is what it will end in people

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Speaker 4: check in every week that they're playing D and D

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Speaker 4: with their friends for the new episode.

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Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating to see at a time when

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Speaker 1: traditional Hollywood is just all about consolidation, you are seeing

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Speaker 1: these green shoots of independent economic activity at platforms that

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Speaker 1: are growing. They're not going to rival Netflix next year,

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Speaker 1: but just the fact that there's a healthy ecosystem that

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Speaker 1: can support them through subscribers and whatever kind of deal

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Speaker 1: making they do. As you've written about with Dropout, like

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Speaker 1: they've got a real they've got a really nice got

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Speaker 1: a really nice base that they clearly know how to

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Speaker 1: build and are growing. And that is I think more

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Speaker 1: vital than ever for a healthy ecosystem that there is,

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Speaker 1: honest to goodness, truly independent platforms out there that are

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Speaker 1: that are surviving and thriving and clearly reaching an audience

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Speaker 1: that is elusive for other networks. I'm just so glad

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Speaker 1: that you got your finger on the pulse and that

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Speaker 1: you were able to bring this incredible meeting of the

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Speaker 1: minds because it has paid benefits for varieties YouTube.

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Speaker 4: Page truly speaking about the business part that you touched

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Speaker 4: on there, and you know, obviously this is not rival

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Speaker 4: on Netflix. But what's interesting here is profitability. Like on

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Speaker 4: a different scale, drop Out had profit sharing. Dropout has

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Speaker 4: more subscribers than College Humor ever did. Like as a business,

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Speaker 4: they are growing year over year and adding and changing

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Speaker 4: and I know critical role when they launched Beacon that

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Speaker 4: was a whole new revenue stream for them, and they

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Speaker 4: are adding and they have Amazon TV shows being adapted

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Speaker 4: from their TV show into animated series. Like it is

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Speaker 4: a business, and it might seem like small potatoes or whatever,

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Speaker 4: but it's going to grow and it's a business that

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Speaker 4: currently is doing very well.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Jen, so appreciate you being again our navigator

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Speaker 1: into this new and interesting world. Happy to as we

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Speaker 1: close out today's episode, here's a few things we're watching for. Well,

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Speaker 1: there's a big football game on Sunday, Go Seahawks. Variety

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Speaker 1: will have tons of coverage of all the entertainment aspects

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Speaker 1: of the Super Bowl, from the halftime show to the

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Speaker 1: parade of ads that everyone will be talking about, including

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Speaker 1: Sam Altman. Keep an eye on Variety dot Com and

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Speaker 1: our social platforms all weekend. We have a lot of

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Speaker 1: super Bowl tastic content, including my sit down with the

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Speaker 1: NFL's chief marketing officer, Tim Ellis. He has a lot

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Speaker 1: to say about how the league has really tried to

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Speaker 1: expand its tent over the past decade. And tomorrow we'll

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Speaker 1: have a special bonus Friday episode of Daily Variety. I'm

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Speaker 1: about to sit down with Russ Hollander, executive director of

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Speaker 1: the Director's Guild of America. Hollywood's latest round of labor

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Speaker 1: talks begins on Monday. For a change, the DJA is

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Speaker 1: not first up at the table with the Alliance of

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Speaker 1: Motion Picture and Television Producers. We'll find out how Hollander

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Speaker 1: feels about that and a lot more before we go.

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Speaker 1: Congrats to Variety's own Emily Longeretta. She's been promoted to

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Speaker 1: Director of Features for our Focus Editorial department. Emily has

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Speaker 1: been a star from the day she walked into Variety

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Speaker 1: in January twenty twenty two. We are excited to see

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Speaker 1: her take the reins of our features coverage, as well

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Speaker 1: as FYC Lifestyle, travel, pop culture coverage, and much more.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. This episode was written and reported by

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Speaker 1: me Cynthia Littleton, with contributions from Daniel De Dario and

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Speaker 1: Jennifer mos Stick Snick's hick Picks. Please leave us a

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Speaker 1: review at the podcast platform of your choice, and please

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Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for that special bonus Friday episode of

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Speaker 1: Daily Variety. And don't forget to tell us what you

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Speaker 1: think at podcasts at Variety dot com. Thanks