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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and unbost Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this

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Speaker 1: is there are No Girls on the Internet. Tech girls

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Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg love talking about how much they care

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Speaker 1: about protecting free speech on their platforms. That is until

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Speaker 1: the speech in question is about abortion, because then suddenly

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Speaker 1: all that free speech gets deleted, even when it's perfectly legal,

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Speaker 1: medically accurate information. The truth is big tech and social

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Speaker 1: media platforms have always been hostile to people sharing resources

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Speaker 1: about abortion and reproductive health, and now, thanks to a

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Speaker 1: new series of reports from the Electronic Frontier Foundation, we're

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Speaker 1: getting a much clearer picture of just how deep this

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Speaker 1: problem goes and the real world impact it's had. I

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Speaker 1: got into all of this with my friend Samantha and

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Speaker 1: Anny over at the podcast Stuff Mom Never Told You.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.

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Speaker 3: I'm welcome Stuff I've Never Told You production of iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 3: and today we are once again thrilled to be joined

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Speaker 3: by the fabulous, the fantastic Bridget Todd.

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Speaker 1: Welcome, Bridget, thank you for having me back. I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: We're so excited to have you always but yes, we

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Speaker 3: were discussing beforehand. There's a lot for us that we

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Speaker 3: would like your expertise on. So always we appreciate you

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Speaker 3: coming on. There's so much going on right now. That

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Speaker 3: being said, how are you bridget you know.

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Speaker 1: This week was I don't know if you all feel it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the last few weeks has been pretty rough.

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Speaker 1: It feels like things are different. It just feels like

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Speaker 1: a shift in the air, which can be hard to

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Speaker 1: exist in alone, make content in that doesn't make people

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Speaker 1: fearful and want to check out, which I think maybe

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Speaker 1: we're all kind of navigating. Yeah, is that something that

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Speaker 1: resonates with youtwo?

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Speaker 3: Yes, ah, yes, uh, it's we make a lot of

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Speaker 3: contents and we do try to mix things up, but

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Speaker 3: we also don't want to ignore things.

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Speaker 1: But I mean, for instance.

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Speaker 3: Yesterday I just had a lot of trouble concentrating on

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Speaker 3: my work because I was thinking about all this other

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Speaker 3: stuff and like, what what's going on in the world?

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Speaker 3: What can I do? Which I've always maintained that if

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Speaker 3: you want to get more productivity out of people, then

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Speaker 3: they're going about it the completely wrong. But that's just

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Speaker 3: a very small personal gripe of mine. Uh, but yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's it's been it's been difficult.

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Speaker 2: You know, what I've discovered is these tiny little coloring

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Speaker 2: books that are really like easy coloring. So it's not

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Speaker 2: detailed because I've discovered as much as I'd like to

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Speaker 2: do those things, I cannot stay within the lines. And

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Speaker 2: when they get really like fancy, the adult color book versions,

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Speaker 2: like they get fancy and you have to do the shading,

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Speaker 2: and like, what what is this? Why do I have

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Speaker 2: so many things to color? So I discovered these tiny

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Speaker 2: ones that's just like cutesy large pictures of like a milkshake.

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Speaker 2: It has been really nice that I could just check out,

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Speaker 2: stay inside the lines and color with a marker like

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Speaker 2: those little like you know, paint like markers that isn't

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Speaker 2: really satisfying nice to like zone.

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Speaker 1: Out, Sam, you are speaking my language, because good I

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Speaker 1: have a I've spent so much money on this, but

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Speaker 1: alcohol markers on Like, there's nothing quite like a good marker.

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Speaker 1: When a new set of markers, you're like, this is

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Speaker 1: going to change everything. My future starts today. I've got

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Speaker 1: this new set of markers. Yes, and the one of

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Speaker 1: the ones that that write really well are so satisfying.

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Speaker 1: I know I sound like a crazy person, but genuinely,

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Speaker 1: the appeal of finding the right set of markers can

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Speaker 1: change everything.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I am obsessed with pins and well written

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Speaker 2: fine point pins, like it has to be fine points,

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Speaker 2: like the Chinese and Japanese have a market because they

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Speaker 2: have some of the best, like nicely flowing pins. Even

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Speaker 2: though my my handwriting is really really bad, but I

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Speaker 2: love the feel of like a nice smooth rite. But

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Speaker 2: with these, like the alcohol markers as you're talking about,

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Speaker 2: the only problem I have is the color that reports

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Speaker 2: that they say they represent on the cap doesn't actually

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Speaker 2: like translate in the marking.

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Speaker 4: So I'm like, oh, this is a yellow and it

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Speaker 4: turns orange.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, wait, this is this is not but it

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Speaker 2: is very smooth and it is very satisfying because it

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Speaker 2: fills all the lines, and you're like, yes, I'm a

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Speaker 2: professional colorer.

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Speaker 1: Of course. This is how. This is how much I

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Speaker 1: tell seriously, I take this. When I get a new

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Speaker 1: set of markers, the first thing I do is a

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Speaker 1: little colors watch to be the oh they say orange,

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Speaker 1: what their orange looks like? Yeah? I know, no surprises,

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Speaker 1: you know what? That's good to you?

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Speaker 2: That is great advice as a newly marker purchasing person.

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Speaker 4: So thank you.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna have to have to get some like scrap

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Speaker 2: paper just so I can do that.

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Speaker 1: This is we can do a whole episode on this.

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Speaker 1: Let's just look pens markers, my fam. It gives me

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Speaker 1: a head tingles even just talking about it. I love

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Speaker 1: it so much.

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Speaker 2: So since I did the like pre show, everything's the

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Speaker 2: worst I have to bring in. This is a solution,

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Speaker 2: and it's coloring large small coloring books that with wonderful markers.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, that can be the antidote to our troubling times.

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Speaker 1: Have you considered just diving headfirst into the world of

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Speaker 1: markers and penmanship and calligraphy and journaling and coloring.

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Speaker 4: It is quite nice. It is quite nice.

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Speaker 1: Annie.

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Speaker 2: I will leave some for you. I know you're about

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Speaker 2: to house it for me, so I will leave some

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Speaker 2: for you to try out yourself.

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Speaker 1: You know I have.

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Speaker 3: I have two main thoughts from this. One is that

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Speaker 3: I hate when this happens where your birthday is coming up, Samantha,

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Speaker 3: and I will wish I had known this earlier. Oh no,

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Speaker 3: that would have been a great gift. But then I think,

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Speaker 3: Bridget you should come on one time and let us

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Speaker 3: talk about something that's not so stressful. Let let's give

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Speaker 3: you let's give ourselves a little break. We could talk

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Speaker 3: about markers. I know you mentioned like reality TV. We

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Speaker 3: could have a whole thing where it's not something so

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Speaker 3: do all the.

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Speaker 4: Dark stuff we should make.

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Speaker 2: Let you come in with the joys that you have,

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Speaker 2: because previous we just talked about the Adirondacks and everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like people who listen to my content

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Speaker 1: might not know that I experienced joy I have.

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Speaker 3: I have.

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Speaker 1: The only things I talk about are not the crushing

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Speaker 1: weight of fascism. Enjoy reality television. I think this would

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Speaker 1: be fun. I think we should look at it all right,

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Speaker 1: I like it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, but unfortunately before today, we're not doing that today.

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Speaker 3: This is also the timing is interesting because we're Samantha

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Speaker 3: and I are working on an update on CPCs crisis

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Speaker 3: Pregnancy Centers.

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Speaker 1: I know them very well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and we in our research ran into a lot

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Speaker 3: of stuff about how tech companies were basically paying for

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Speaker 3: them to advertise or accepting their money and being misleading

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Speaker 3: about things. So this is very much related. What are

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Speaker 3: we talking about today, bridget.

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Speaker 1: Well, that is such a good transition because it's all related.

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Speaker 1: But tech companies really have put their thumbs on the

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Speaker 1: scale when it comes to being able to get accurate

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Speaker 1: content about abortion on social media. Your point about crisis

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Speaker 1: pregnancy centers and the way that Google essentially is like

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Speaker 1: paying an advertising network for them to exist is a

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Speaker 1: great example. But today I really wanted to talk about

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Speaker 1: how social media is heavily moderating and even in some

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Speaker 1: cases like suppressing and tensoring content about abortion. I think

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Speaker 1: that we all talk this back in January, But do

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Speaker 1: y'all remember when Mark Zuckerberg had that moment that people

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Speaker 1: sort of talked about as his mask off moment back

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Speaker 1: in January when Trump came back into office. I think

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Speaker 1: that we were talking about how he really started dressing

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Speaker 1: like a divorced nightclub promoter and was saying things like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we're taking the tampons out of the washrooms at the

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Speaker 1: restaurant in here at Facebook. HQ just really was sort

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Speaker 1: of having a moment where he was saying a lot

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Speaker 1: of things.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember this, Oh yes, oh yes, he was

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Speaker 3: like he leaned in hard.

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Speaker 2: He was hard.

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Speaker 4: He's been waiting for those moments.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Oh my gosh, you can tell. I mean I

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Speaker 1: also I almost quibbled when people were like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: his mask off moment, because I don't think that Mark

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg has any kind of like I don't. I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: call it a mask off moment because I think that

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Speaker 1: he is the definition of a hollow, empty person, and

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Speaker 1: so I think he is the mask. He will say anything.

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Speaker 1: I think that he has no he's I'm honestly fascinated

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Speaker 1: by him as a tech leader because I think that

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Speaker 1: he has no value, scruples, morals, there's just nothing. He

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Speaker 1: will say anything, he will do anything. However the wind blows,

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Speaker 1: that's how he will blow. And I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: fair to call that a mask moment when truly, like

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Speaker 1: what the mask is not is not hiding anything. This

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Speaker 1: is just genuinely like who you are, who you always

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Speaker 1: have been, just a soulless person who was waiting to

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Speaker 1: see who they should kiss up to and will do

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Speaker 1: that if it means holding onto power.

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Speaker 2: Right, he was just waiting in the background, like his

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Speaker 2: personality was just waiting in the shadows, and then we're.

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Speaker 4: Like, oh, oh, this is my moment.

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Speaker 1: And so when that all was going on, he also

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Speaker 1: announced that Meta was going to be scrapping their community

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Speaker 1: notes feature and scrapping all third party fact checking on

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Speaker 1: the platform, because, as he said, it was time for

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Speaker 1: the company to get back to their roots when it

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Speaker 1: comes to free expression. I will play a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a video that he put out talking about this.

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Speaker 5: Hey, everyone, I want to talk about something important today

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Speaker 5: because it's time to get back to our roots around

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Speaker 5: free expression on Facebook and Instagram. I started building social

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Speaker 5: media to give people a voice. I gave a speech

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Speaker 5: at Georgetown five years ago about the importance of protecting

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Speaker 5: free expression and I still believe this today. But a

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Speaker 5: lot has happened over the last several years. There's been

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Speaker 5: widespread debate about potential harms from online content. Governments and

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Speaker 5: legacy media have pushed to censor more and more. A

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Speaker 5: lot of this is clearly political, but there's also a

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Speaker 5: lot of legitimately bad stuff out there. Drugs, terrorism, child exploitation.

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Speaker 5: These are things that we take very seriously, and I

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Speaker 5: want to make sure that we handle responsibly.

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Speaker 1: So I have a lot to say about that. First

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Speaker 1: of all, very convenient rewriting of the history that frankly

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Speaker 1: wasn't that long ago, and that if you're listening in

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Speaker 1: your my age, you probably remember because we all know

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Speaker 1: it is not a secret that Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg created

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Speaker 1: Facebook as a college student to rank the looks of

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Speaker 1: the women in his on his college campus. Somehow we

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Speaker 1: sort of let him get away with being like, I

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Speaker 1: created Facebook to protect free expression. Okay, sure, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I always have to like quibble at that because he

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Speaker 1: I guessaw a video where he said I created Facebook

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Speaker 1: because I wanted people to be able to have debates

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Speaker 1: about the Iraq War, And it's like, no, you did it.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I was an organizer in the anti

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Speaker 1: war movement. Nobody was communicating on Facebook when we like,

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Speaker 1: Facebook wasn't for that. So that's just not true. I

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Speaker 1: really have a thing where people lie to your face

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Speaker 1: about recent history that you remember that you were therefore

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Speaker 1: that you were part of. So that's bullshit. But even

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Speaker 1: more than that, he's talking about how the content that

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Speaker 1: he really wants to focus on in terms of moderating

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Speaker 1: the platform is a legal content right, child safety, harms,

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Speaker 1: drug trade, organized criminal activity, all of that. So this

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Speaker 1: is when he was really talking about how it was

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Speaker 1: to protect free expression on social media platforms. You'll might

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Speaker 1: recall that around this time, he was in the headlines

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Speaker 1: for saying that he felt the Biden administration had been

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Speaker 1: trying to pressure Facebook into removing COVID misinformation. The White

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Speaker 1: House had a different take, saying, quote, when confronted with

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Speaker 1: the deadly pandemic, this administration encouraged responsible actions to protect

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Speaker 1: public health and safety. Our position has been very clear

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Speaker 1: and consistent. We believe tech companies and other private actors

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Speaker 1: should take into account the effects their actions have on

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Speaker 1: the American people while making independent choices about the information

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Speaker 1: they present. So, you know, Zuckerberg in this moment was like,

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Speaker 1: we are not going to be moderating political content the

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Speaker 1: way that we have been. We are going to lift

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Speaker 1: restrictions on topics that are part of mainstream discourse and

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Speaker 1: really just focus on the enforcement of a legal and

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Speaker 1: like high severity violation. So yay for free speech right.

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Speaker 1: That all sounds great, Well, all of that, It's only

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Speaker 1: the case if that part of the mainstream discourse is

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Speaker 1: not abortion, which Facebook continues to suppress and moderate quite

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Speaker 1: heavily with zero transparency and zero consistency. So it seems

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Speaker 1: like if you're spreading COVID misinformation. Well, that is protected

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Speaker 1: speech that needs to be left up for freedom. If

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Speaker 1: you are sharing accurate information about abortion that isn't even

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Speaker 1: against metas policies, they will take it down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like you said, without warning or transpancy or

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Speaker 3: nothing just is gone. And you might not know why

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Speaker 3: or well, you could probably figure it out. But one

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Speaker 3: of the things that's really frustrating about all of this

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Speaker 3: is that, you know, like you said, they're kind of

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Speaker 3: lying to our faces, right, like they're saying one thing

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Speaker 3: and doing something completely different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what really makes me angry about this. You know,

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Speaker 1: I cover a lot of tech companies. The thing that

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Speaker 1: gets me is when they lie, when they say one

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Speaker 1: thing publicly, when they publish something in their rules and

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Speaker 1: regulations and policies. You know, no one's putting a gun

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Speaker 1: to their head and making them put these things in

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Speaker 1: their rules, put them in their rules, and then they

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Speaker 1: do a completely different thing, and then when advocates or

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Speaker 1: organizers call them out on it, there's just no they're

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Speaker 1: just like, oops, what are they gonna do that? For

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Speaker 1: some reason, that just really gets me because they are

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Speaker 1: allowed to enjoy all of this positive press of putting

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Speaker 1: this thing in their policy and then continue doing the

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Speaker 1: shady work of going against that policy. It never comes

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Speaker 1: back at them like they're able to just do whatever

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Speaker 1: they want while saying one thing can doing another. And

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Speaker 1: I just don't feel like they really get held accountable.

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Speaker 1: And so a Meta spokesperson said that taking down abortion

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Speaker 1: content goes against Meta's own intentions. A spokesperson told The

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Speaker 1: New York Times, we want our platforms to be a

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Speaker 1: place where people can access reliable information about health services,

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Speaker 1: advertisers can promote health services, and everyone can discuss and

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Speaker 1: debate public policies in this space. That is why we

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Speaker 1: allow posts and ads discussing and debating abortion. But they're

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Speaker 1: not doing that at all. Because the big thing to

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Speaker 1: know here is that Meta says one thing in their

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Speaker 1: policies and then does a completely different thing when it

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Speaker 1: comes to how they are actually moderating abortion content. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's.

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Speaker 3: So difficult right now to get that good information, and

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Speaker 3: there's so much misinformation and disinformation out there, and to

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Speaker 3: remove it is just really piling onto a problem that

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Speaker 3: really doesn't need any more piling onto. It is already

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Speaker 3: really bad, and people are already very confused this is

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Speaker 3: not helping.

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Speaker 1: No, that's a really good context to set that. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're in a time where the Supreme Court struck down Row.

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Speaker 1: It is so much harder to access accurate information about

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Speaker 1: help so that people can make health decisions for themselves.

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Speaker 1: And when social media platforms like Facebook put their thumb

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Speaker 1: on the scales and make these kinds of moderation decisions

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Speaker 1: with no transparency that go against their own stated policy,

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Speaker 1: it just makes that climate so much harder. It makes

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Speaker 1: it harder for the people who are trying to do

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Speaker 1: this work, abortion providers and abortion advocates. It makes it

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Speaker 1: harder for people who need to make decisions about their

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Speaker 1: health and the people that support them. It makes it

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Speaker 1: so that people cannot access information to figure out what

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Speaker 1: they want to do with their own bodies and lives.

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Speaker 1: And these companies do that while saying, oh, we promote

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Speaker 1: the ability to use our platforms to get this kind

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Speaker 1: of information. I would prefer that they say we don't

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Speaker 1: like abortion, we don't want people using our platform to

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Speaker 1: talk about abortion, so we take that content off. At

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Speaker 1: least that would be honest. But what they are doing

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Speaker 1: is lying to people about what they're actually doing while

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Speaker 1: doing it. It's so it's it's really adding insult to injury.

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Speaker 2: Right, I mean, the true, honest answer probably is that

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Speaker 2: they are taking money or they know that they are

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Speaker 2: just buying time until the en tirty of our rights

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Speaker 2: and reproductive rights may be completely dismantled in every way.

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Speaker 2: And that way they can already say, hey, leaders of

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Speaker 2: this fascist regime, we have done everything for you, so

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Speaker 2: can you keep supporting our platform and give us more money?

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Speaker 1: Ugh, I mean the way that you've got the fox

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Speaker 1: Watch in the Henhouse here, the way that platforms are

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Speaker 1: able to cozy up to really, I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: even really the Trump administration, just whoever is in power.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And then though that administration is also the administration that

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Speaker 1: is meant to be overseeing and regulating them. It's horrible

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Speaker 1: and so we really it's I'm glad that you brought

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Speaker 1: that up, because I think that helps us peel back

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Speaker 1: the layers of what exactly is going on here and

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Speaker 1: why it's so unacceptable.

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Speaker 2: And in understanding that that the whole confusion part is

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Speaker 2: probably the point.

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Speaker 1: I think that's true. I mean, in looking at some

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Speaker 1: of the ways that Facebook says one thing and does

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Speaker 1: another when it comes to moderating abortion content. I think

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Speaker 1: that's exactly the point. It's like, you know, if we

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Speaker 1: and we'll get into this a little bit in a moment,

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Speaker 1: but if we create a confusing, inconsistent, not transparent climate,

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Speaker 1: people will just stop posting this information on our platforms.

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Speaker 1: And so we don't have to crack down on all

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Speaker 1: of it. We don't have to have a policy that

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Speaker 1: does not allow for abortion content to be on our platform.

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Speaker 1: It'll there'll be a chilling effect and people will do

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Speaker 1: it on their own. They'll just stop posting on their own.

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Speaker 1: And I think, in my opinion, that's the why of

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Speaker 1: why this is happening. So Meta says that they really

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Speaker 1: want to focus on moderating posts that deal with illegal content.

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Speaker 1: Side note, they don't always do such a great job

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Speaker 1: of that either, but that's for another episode. So Meta's

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Speaker 1: Dangerous Organizations and Individuals ORDI policy was supposed to really

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Speaker 1: be like a narrow policy focusing on preventing the platform

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Speaker 1: from being used by terrorist groups or organized crime like

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Speaker 1: VIA or criminal activity. But according to the Electronic Frontier Foundation,

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Speaker 1: over the years, we've really seen those rules be applied

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Speaker 1: in far broader and troubling ways with little transparency and

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Speaker 1: significant impact on marginalized voices, and this has essentially allowed

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Speaker 1: META to suppress factual content about abortion that does not

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Speaker 1: actually break any of the platform's rules. So the reason

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Speaker 1: why we know this is because the Electronic Frontier Foundation

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Speaker 1: or EFF have really given us a snapshot into what's

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Speaker 1: happening and provided some very clear receipts with their stock

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Speaker 1: censoring abortion campaign effs as they collected stories from individuals,

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Speaker 1: healthcare clinics, advocacy groups, and more, and together they've revealed

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Speaker 1: nearly one hundred examples of posts and resources being taken down,

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Speaker 1: ranging from guidance on medication abortion to links of resources

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Speaker 1: supporting individuals in states with abortion bands. What is important

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Speaker 1: to note is that the posts that they found that

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Speaker 1: weren't taken down or that resulted in sometimes a ban,

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Speaker 1: did not break any of metas rules. IFF said, we

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Speaker 1: analyze these takedowns, deletions, and bands comparing the content to

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Speaker 1: what platform policies allow, particularly those of META, and found

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Speaker 1: that almost none of the submissions we received violated any

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Speaker 1: of the platform stated policies. Most of the censored posts

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Speaker 1: simply provided factual educational information, so it really is a

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Speaker 1: system where you don't know, I mean, I guess you

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Speaker 1: could guess why this content is being taken down. There's

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Speaker 1: no consistency, there's no transparency, and Facebook just gets to

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Speaker 1: be like oopsie when it happens. Here's a great example

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Speaker 1: of a post that was removed from a healthcare policy

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Speaker 1: strategist named Lauren Carer discussing abortion pills availability by mail.

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Speaker 1: Her post reads, FYI, abortion pills are great to have around,

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Speaker 1: whether you anticipate needing them or not. Plan C Pills

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Speaker 1: is an amazing resource to help you find reliable sources

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Speaker 1: for abortion pills by mail, no matter where you live.

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Speaker 1: Once received, the pills should be kept in a cool,

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Speaker 1: dry place. The shelf life of maybe pristone is about

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Speaker 1: five years. The shelf life of missoprystal is about two years.

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Speaker 1: There's a missiprystal only regiment that is extremely safe, effective,

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Speaker 1: and very common globally. So that post is just here

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Speaker 1: is some factual information about these pills. However, Facebook removed

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Speaker 1: that post, and the explanation they gave Lauren was that

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Speaker 1: they don't allow people to buy, sell, or exchange drugs

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Speaker 1: that require a prescription from a doctor or a pharmacist.

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Speaker 1: But as you can tell, that post isn't about selling

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Speaker 1: or buying or trading medication. It is just fact based

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Speaker 1: information about that medication.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of those things where you read it

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Speaker 3: and you're like, I don't see the I don see

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Speaker 3: the thing, the thing that you're saying is there. It's

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Speaker 3: just it's just information. Uh oh it makes you bad.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and Eff points out that this post does not

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Speaker 1: break any of Meta's rules and should not be removed.

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Speaker 1: But you don't have to take their word for it

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Speaker 1: or my word for it, because Meta said the exact

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Speaker 1: same thing. Eff points out that Meta publicly insists that

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Speaker 1: posts like these should not be censored, and if February

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four letter to Amnesty International, metas Human Rights

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Speaker 1: policy director wrote, organic content i e. Non Paid content

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Speaker 1: educating users about medication abortion is allowed and does not

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Speaker 1: violate our community standards. Additionally, providing guidance on legal access

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Speaker 1: to pharmaceuticals is allowed. So what the hell he suck? Like,

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Speaker 1: why if it's allowed, why are you taking it down?

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Speaker 3: I'm so curious about because if the moderators are essentially

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Speaker 3: kind of removed, then is this just a they have

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Speaker 3: Like a keyword, like how is this happening? Is there

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Speaker 3: a person or.

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Speaker 1: That is a great question. If I had to guess,

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Speaker 1: I would say, just knowing what I know about content moderation,

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Speaker 1: I would say this is probably over use of AI

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Speaker 1: moderation and then not caring enough to correct that. If

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Speaker 1: I had to say, I would say, because honestly, content

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Speaker 1: moderation is a job for a not just a human,

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Speaker 1: but a culturally competent human. When you don't have culturally

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Speaker 1: competent humans making moderation decisions, it's a problem, and it's

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Speaker 1: a problem that leads to the content of marginalized people

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Speaker 1: being suppressed much more on these platforms. Right, So, if

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Speaker 1: I had to guess, I would say, this is somebody

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Speaker 1: using an AI content moderation and then not caring enough

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Speaker 1: to correct that. It is consistently taking down content that

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Speaker 1: does not break any of the platform's rules. That's my guess. Well,

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Speaker 1: and that kind of.

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Speaker 3: Relates to another thing I know you're going to talk about,

438
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 3: which is something Smith and I have also talked about

439
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 3: on some of our episodes.

440
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: Is shadow banding. That's right, I mean, shadow banding is

441
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,639
Speaker 1: one of those issues that I find very interesting because

442
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,680
Speaker 1: who among us has not posted something on social media,

443
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 1: had that post not perform as well as you were expecting,

444
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: and wonder am I shadow band? I have definitely thought

445
00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: this myself. If you've ever thought that, you are not alone.

446
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,640
Speaker 1: But it does really happened. So shadow banning is when

447
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: a social media platform limits the visibility of someone's content

448
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,119
Speaker 1: without telling them. And this is happening to people and

449
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: organizations that make content about sexual and reproductive health. And

450
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: it's a real problem because as we were talking about

451
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 1: before the Internet in twenty twenty five, but that is

452
00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: really where people are going to find information about their health,

453
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,239
Speaker 1: is especially in a landscape where that information is more

454
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: difficult to come by, where it's criminalized and cracked down on.

455
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: So people need the Internet as a resource, and so

456
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: if the people and advocates and organizations who provide that

457
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: information online are shadow band it becomes that much harder

458
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,479
Speaker 1: to access what is often life saving information to help

459
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: people make health decisions. Earlier this year, the Center for

460
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Intimacy Justice shared a report called the Digital Gag Suppression

461
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: of Sexual and Reproductive Health on Meta TikTok, Amazon, and Google,

462
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: and they found that of the one hundred and fifty

463
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: nine nonprofits, content creators, sex educators, and businesses that they surveyed,

464
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 1: three had content removed on Meta, fifty five percent had

465
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: content removed on TikTok. And this suppression is happening at

466
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 1: the same time as platforms continue to allow and elevate

467
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 1: videos of violence and gore and extremist and hateful content.

468
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: And this pattern is troubling because it only becomes more

469
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 1: prevalent as folks turn more and more to social media

470
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 1: to find the information that they need to make decisions

471
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,360
Speaker 1: about their health. And so I like that context because

472
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 1: we really do have a social media landscape that allows

473
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 1: for violent content, gory content, extremist or hateful content to

474
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: stay up while taking down accurate content about reproductive health

475
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: that they agreed does not violate any of their policies.

476
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,920
Speaker 3: It's pretty telling to you. You have some examples here,

477
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 3: and one of them is from a place near us

478
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 3: that I was like, oh dear, oh dear, emery. Yeah, yep,

479
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 3: But I mean it's also as we're doing this research

480
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 3: on the CPC episode, I consider myself pretty you know,

481
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 3: pretty informed about abortion and all of it, but I

482
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 3: had to look up some stuff about like I'm not

483
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 3: sure is that legal there. I don't know, Like I

484
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 3: was feeling like, I know, I don't know if I

485
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: can trust this information. And then you try to go

486
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 3: to a place where you're like, Okay, I know this place,

487
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 3: and then you find out it's taken down, it doesn't

488
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: have anything about it. Yeah, it's not a good climate.

489
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you have Google allowing CPCs to stay,

490
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: you know, high ranked in their search. And then when

491
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: you go to CPCs they tell you all kinds of

492
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: misinformation about pregnancy and abortion. They are allowed to just

493
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:52,480
Speaker 1: essentially lie to people, people who are in vulnerable situations.

494
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: And so it's already a climate where it's hard to

495
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: find trustworthy, accurate information, and then the clearly not trustworthy,

496
00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: clearly not accurate information is allowed to not just allowed

497
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: to exist, but they put their thumb on the scales

498
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 1: in terms of making it more accessible than information that

499
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: is factual.

500
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: Yep.

501
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 3: So let us get into some of these examples, including

502
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 3: the one.

503
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 1: Eras, so, let's talk about what happened at Emory University.

504
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: So rise at Emor University, the Center for Reproductive Health

505
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: and Research in the Southeast, they published a post saying,

506
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: let's talk about Miffy pristone and its uses and the

507
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 1: importance of access. So they post this online. Two months later,

508
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 1: their account was suddenly suspended, flagged under the policy against

509
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: selling illegal drugs, which they were not selling or offering

510
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: illegal drugs. They were just giving fact based health information.

511
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: They tried to appeal, but that appeal was denied, leading

512
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: to their account being permanently deleted. Sarah Read, the director

513
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: of research and translation at Rise, told Eff, as a team,

514
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: this was a hit to our morale. We pour countless

515
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: hours of person power, creativity, and passion into creating the

516
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 1: content we have on our page and having it vanished

517
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,239
Speaker 1: virtually overnight took a toll on our team. And you know,

518
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: I really think, like think about how critical that information

519
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: is these days, and how critical social media is these days.

520
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: They are already doing sensitive work in an area where

521
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: that work is threatened, and so losing your social media

522
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 1: that you've put so much time into is like losing

523
00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: a lifeline, both for the staff and for the community

524
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 1: that you're trying to do that work in, as Eff

525
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: puts it, For many organizational users like Rise, their social

526
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: media accounts are repository for resources and metrics that may

527
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 1: not be stored elsewhere. We spent a significant amount of

528
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: already constrained team capacity attempting to recover all of the

529
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: content we created for Instagram that was potentially going to

530
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: be permanently lost. We also spend a significant amount of

531
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: time and energy trying to understand what options we might

532
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: have available from Meta to a peace our case and

533
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: recover our account. Their support options are not easily accessible,

534
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: and the time it took to navigate this issue distracted

535
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: from our existing work. So I totally feel what they

536
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: are saying that when you are doing work that is

537
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: that critical, you know, time sensitive, having to stop that

538
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: work to figure out, well, how are we going to

539
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: appeal this decision to Meta? Is all of are all

540
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: of our years and years of work on Instagram just

541
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: lost forever? That is a real problem. And again, they

542
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 1: weren't doing anything wrong, They're they're nothing that they posted

543
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: on their account was against metas policies. It's just arbitrary,

544
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 1: and so luckily they were able to eventually get their

545
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: account back, but only because they knew someone who knew

546
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: somebody who worked at Facebook personally, which is really the

547
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: only way to appeal when this kind of thing happens

548
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: if you if you if your account is taken down

549
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: for no real reason by Facebook. I am sorry to say,

550
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: unless you have a friend who knows somebody who works

551
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: at Facebook, you're probably not going to be able to

552
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: appeal again. Because a lot of these decisions are AI right.

553
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: It can be very very hard to escalate to a

554
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: human and the only real way to do it is

555
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 1: to just know somebody there. And again, I just feel

556
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: that in these situations where Meta agrees these posts are

557
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: not in violation of their rules and that they admit

558
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: they made a mistake, it should not come down to

559
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: knowing somebody at Facebook to have these decisions be reversed

560
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 1: when Meta agrees their mistakes on their part.

561
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 3: Now I'm trying to think if I know someone on

562
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 3: Facebook I used to, I don't know if we're still there.

563
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: Well.

564
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: Another issue with this is, as you said, if people

565
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 3: are worried that their content might be deleted or shadow banned,

566
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 3: or just they've seen this happen to other organizations or

567
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 3: something like that, then they might not post it anymore.

568
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: Or yeah, and I have to assume that is the point.

569
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 1: Eff rights At the end of the day, clinics are

570
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: clinics are left afraid to post basic information, patients are

571
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: left confused or misinformed, and researchers lose access to these audiences.

572
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: But unless your issue catches the attention of a journalist

573
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: or you know, someone at Meta, you might never regain

574
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: access to your account. And so I really think that

575
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: that is the sort of so what here that Meta

576
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: is doing this to sort of not explicitly discourage organizations

577
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: and advocates and people from posting this kind of information

578
00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: on their platform, while saying the opposite, because it is

579
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: going to have a silencing effect. You know, nobody wants

580
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: to risk losing their entire platform, years and years and

581
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: years of content and research and resources they've collected. Yeah,

582
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: no one's going to want to take that risk, right.

583
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 2: It's interesting that their policy with like the things that

584
00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: we're going to actually moderate as well, terrorism and gain

585
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: and child endangerment, which is kind of a dog whistle

586
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: for what the Republican platform has been to for jump

587
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: to all of this morality level of issues, and that

588
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: the fact that Zuckerberg is like, you know what, yeah,

589
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: we're going to adopt this too, but it's purely to

590
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 2: protect the people's We're just protecting the people's and again

591
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 2: it does seem like see, see we're doing like you,

592
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 2: we got your back. We also agree with this this

593
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: is the only way or this is the best way

594
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: to control what information is being out there.

595
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: Yes, and if you actually I mean, this is a

596
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:41,960
Speaker 1: whole other topic. But when you look at the way,

597
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: so they say, Okay, we're only gonna be cracking down

598
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 1: on content that creates harm for kids, this dog whistle

599
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: that they love to pull up. And then when you

600
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: look at the kind of harm for kids that they

601
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: either allow or advocate, part of me is like, what

602
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 1: what content are you actually taking down with? I don't

603
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 1: know if you all saw the recent reporting. There was

604
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 1: a very interesting report I think from the Wall Street

605
00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: Journal where they had gotten their hands on an internal

606
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: policy document. So this is something that somebody at Facebook said,

607
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: this is our policy, totally fine to have in writing,

608
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: no problem. That said that Meta's chatbots were allowed to

609
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: engage in sensual play with minors, so kids, it was

610
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: okay with Meta if they're chatbots engaged in like sensual

611
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: I won't say sexual, but I would say I've seen

612
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: some of the content and it is sort of spicy

613
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: that it's okay if they're if they're bot to do

614
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 1: that with children. And part of me is like, I

615
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: cannot believe you will put this in writing. I cannot

616
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: believe that someone at Facebook said, yeah, this is this

617
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: is a document, I'll attach my name to this. Well

618
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: and behold. When the Wall Street Journal asked about it,

619
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, no, we have since walked that

620
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 1: policy back. That's no longer our official on the record.

621
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: Our official on the record policy is no longer that

622
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: it's okay for our bots to engage in sexy role

623
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 1: play with kids. We walked that back, Like, I bet

624
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 1: you did walk.

625
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 4: That back today as you asked question.

626
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 1: I'm so happened right after the Wall Street Journal called

627
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: them and asked them about it. I'm so sure that

628
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:18,799
Speaker 1: it was like an hour later we walked at that.

629
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,319
Speaker 4: We got this. No, we would never right.

630
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, and I mean you were here, Bridget. I

631
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 3: guess it was years ago and you were talking about

632
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 3: another kind of whistle brower account of Facebook knowing it

633
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 3: was harming young girls.

634
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, Francis hogen Is is the whistleblower. Why we know that?

635
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's it is very galling for them to

636
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: be like we want to protect the children, and then

637
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: you have these things.

638
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: That again directly show that clearly you don't not really

639
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: and to be clear, that is knowingly harming kids. So

640
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: I just think it's very interesting that Facebook gets to say, well,

641
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: we're too busy focusing on content that harms kids to

642
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: take down to really care that much about what's going

643
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: on with our abortion content, and that's the content we're

644
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 1: really working on. But really we're not doing that either,

645
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like they get they really

646
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 1: It just infuriates me, it really does. And I think

647
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 1: the issue really is to understand is in twenty twenty five,

648
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: when you have a question, when I have a question,

649
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,479
Speaker 1: the first place I go is the internet, right we all?

650
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: That's I think that is the reality for most of us,

651
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: and the internet and social media really has become this

652
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: lifeline for folks trying to get information about the world

653
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: around us, including our sexual and reproductive health. And if

654
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: folks are not able to find what they need in

655
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 1: their own communities, which I'm sorry to say is becoming

656
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: more and more of the reality these days, they are

657
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: going to go online to turn to social media to

658
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: fill those gaps that access really matters most for folks

659
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: whose care is being cut off, abortion seekers or trans

660
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,800
Speaker 1: or queer youth living in states where healthcare is under attack.

661
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: And so if you have these social media platforms kind

662
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: of adding to a landscape where that information is difficult

663
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: to access, even if that information is not against their rules,

664
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: it's just making it that much more difficult. And these

665
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,359
Speaker 1: decisions really do matter. I mean they some of them

666
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 1: are life or death, and they really have real world

667
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: impact on people's lives.

668
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And unfortunately this is not this is part of

669
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: kind of a larger issue, kind of a larger attack,

670
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 3: gendered attack. Correct.

671
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: Yes, so this is something I find so interesting and

672
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: I actually should come back and do another episode on it.

673
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: In the middle of some research on it right now.

674
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: But the Center for Intimacy Justice, who's report I mentioned earlier,

675
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: they have another report that really shows how platforms routinely

676
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:56,799
Speaker 1: suppress sexual health content for women and trans folks, while

677
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: leaving content aimed at supporting the sexual health of CIS

678
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,760
Speaker 1: men largely untouched. Right. So, I know lots of people

679
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: who run businesses that are focused on like the sexual

680
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: health of people who are not CIS men. Right, So,

681
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: if you have pelvic pain, if you need sex toys,

682
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: like all these different things that are aimed at people

683
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,479
Speaker 1: who are not cisgender men. I have lots of friends

684
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: who run businesses like that. They are essentially not able

685
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: to do any kind of advertising on Facebook because Facebook

686
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: does not allow it. However, Facebook certainly allows information about

687
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 1: the sexual wellness of cisgender men. So we really have

688
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: a climate where, let's face it, mostly men who run

689
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 1: these platforms are able to determine whose sexual health is

690
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: important and who is not. Whose healthcare is healthcare, and

691
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: whose is like something perverted that needs to be suppressed

692
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: and isn't allowed on their platform.

693
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and now thinking about it, as I've been looking

694
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 2: at Instagram, the amount of gale ads that I've been getting,

695
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 2: which is interesting because I thought that was medication that

696
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,920
Speaker 2: you had to get through a doctor, is overwhelming. But

697
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: also on the vice versa of that is meles you know,

698
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: health sex health bs. Those are the two ads that

699
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: I get. Definitely nothing about women in birth control rarely,

700
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,879
Speaker 2: there's a few that, but it's very as of late,

701
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: I think zero, But the amount of GLP one ads,

702
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: I'm like, WHOA, what is happening Instagram?

703
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 4: I thought we were allowing this.

704
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean the amount of ads I get, specifically

705
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: for the a rectil dysfunction medication blue Cheo, and the

706
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: ads are do have you ever seen these ads online?

707
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,640
Speaker 1: The ads are clearly targeted at women, So it's a

708
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: cute woman being like, ladies, get your man to get

709
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 1: blue chee. Blue shoe is gonna rock your world. Get

710
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: your man on blue shoe. And that's a medication, that is,

711
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: that is an erectail dysfunction prescription medication. But these platforms

712
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,680
Speaker 1: have just decided, oh no, that's okay. That's that. You

713
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: can you can show that all day long, no problem,

714
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: you can boost it, you can put money behind it.

715
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: Totally fine.

716
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: But again that this is the rampant amount of as

717
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,399
Speaker 2: like every two like scrolls on Instagram that pops up,

718
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 2: and on Facebook too, which is I'm like, I don't

719
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: even go to Facebook. I just need to know people's birthdays.

720
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 2: That's all I need, That's all I really want. But again,

721
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 2: this seems to be like I thought once, if that

722
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: was your policy from Jump, then how are these as

723
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: paying you, I know, paying you millions?

724
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 4: How are these okay?

725
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, their policy is totally inconsistent seemingly arbitrary and seemingly

726
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: biased against any kind of marginal identity. Like that's just

727
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,919
Speaker 1: what's going on. They don't have any transparency. They say

728
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: one thing and do another. Uh, and that just is

729
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: the is the norm for them, and it's I really

730
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: do think that we should be talking about how you know, again,

731
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: let's be honest, we're talking about mostly men, and mostly

732
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: not just men, like a specific kind of man, white moneyed,

733
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 1: coastal all of that. How we have given them so

734
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: much power to define what knowledge is acceptable, whose voices

735
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: are amplified, whose bodies are are left at risk, and

736
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 1: when platforms decide what can and can't be shared. They

737
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:24,879
Speaker 1: are making public health decisions with global consequences in ways

738
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: that are often contrary to public health, and then also

739
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 1: reinforce systemic inequalities. And so I just think, you know,

740
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: this is not just we're not just talking about like

741
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: vague policy language. I know that I have spent a

742
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: lot of time talking about that because it annoys me.

743
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 1: But it's really about them deciding who gets to speak,

744
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,680
Speaker 1: who gets seen, who gets access to the information that

745
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,560
Speaker 1: they need to make decisions about their own health and bodies.

746
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: When meta and these platforms silence accurate, essential sexual and

747
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: reproductive health information for not just enforcing inconsistent body rules.

748
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: I mean they are, but they're not just doing that.

749
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: They are also shaping people's lives and really deciding whose

750
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,319
Speaker 1: health matters and whose doesn't. And in a world where

751
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: we know the Internet has really become this lifeline that

752
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: is not just annoying, although I am annoyed, it is

753
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: dangerous because free speech shouldn't come with a disclaimer that

754
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 1: your body's safety is just optional and up to the

755
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: whims of Mark Zuckerberg.

756
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 3: No, I don't want to live in that world.

757
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: No, No, I mean I think about this all the time,

758
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: the ways that these individuals, like a handful of individual

759
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: mostly white guys, get to define what our worlds look

760
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,879
Speaker 1: like in these very concrete ways. And I've never met

761
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg. Although I have met Cheryl Sandberg, but I've

762
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: never met Mark Zuckerberg. I don't want Mark Zuckerberg in

763
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: charge of deciding anything for my life. I don't think

764
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg and I have any common idea about what

765
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: it means to have a good, fulfilled life. I don't

766
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: want him designing what my future looks like.

767
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 3: I think that's very wise.

768
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: I mean that one movie made him look really pretty

769
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 2: much a dick.

770
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,920
Speaker 1: So, oh my god, you mean The Social Network, one

771
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: of my favorite movies. Oh my god. I don't want

772
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: to I don't want to spoil it, but the ending

773
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,320
Speaker 1: of that movie is my version of Citizen Kane. Have

774
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 1: you both have seen it? Yeah?

775
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 4: I've not seen it. I've seen clips because I'm like,

776
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 4: I don't want even want to know, but he seems

777
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 4: like a dick.

778
00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,760
Speaker 1: Go home and watch it tonight. I know your birthday

779
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 1: is coming up birthday? Is it a fun birthday watch?

780
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm such a nerd. I say it's a

781
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: fun watch. But if you're looking for a movie to

782
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 1: watch on your birthday, that might be that might be

783
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: the one.

784
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 3: It's a good it's a solid like, oh yeah, you're

785
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 3: just a sad man ending.

786
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: Yes, you know what I'm talking about. You kiss Citizen Kane.

787
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: The sled moment at the end of that movie. It

788
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,759
Speaker 1: haunts me, and I think if you haven't, I think

789
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: if you've seen it, it gives context for some of the

790
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: stuff we've talked about when it comes to for birth today.

791
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 4: All right, And without even seeing it, I was like alright.

792
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 1: I also love it as such a dark soundtrack. Who

793
00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: is it yet? Nobody does a haunting the soundtrack like

794
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: Trent Resnor Gone Girl soundtrack soundtrack to Challenger is also

795
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 1: Trent Resnor, And that's the soundtrack I put on when

796
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 1: I'm writing. If you need to focus and just like

797
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 1: put on some headphones and be like we are writing.

798
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: That is your soundtrack. Trent Rednor can write a dark

799
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 1: movie soundtrack like nobody's business.

800
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 3: And I love that it was in this movie about

801
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 3: this college kid trying to get a girl to like

802
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:47,439
Speaker 3: oh lord, yes, okay, well we'll revisit that later. We'll

803
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 3: do uh maybe you know we had a fun time

804
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 3: trash talking some Hugh Heffner that one time we'll come

805
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 3: back with a fun thing for you, Bridget, and you

806
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 3: can side because yours bring us every topic. Yes of

807
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 3: your choosing. But before then, thank you so much for

808
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 3: being here. Where can the good listeners find you?

809
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: You can find me on my podcast. There are no

810
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: girls on the internet. You can find me on Instagram.

811
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: I know it's owned by Max Zuckerberg. I don't like

812
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 1: it either. At Bridget Bryan DC TikTok at Bridget Bryan

813
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: DC and on YouTube and there are no girls on

814
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 1: the internet.

815
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 3: Yes, go check all of that out if you have

816
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 3: it already, listeners. If you would like to contact us,

817
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 3: you can. You can email us at Hello, stuff I

818
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,399
Speaker 3: Never told You. You can find us on Blue Scott

819
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 3: most of a podcast, or Instagram and TikTok at stuff

820
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: one Never told You.

821
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 1: We're also on YouTube.

822
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 3: We have new merchandise at Cotton Bureau, and we have

823
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 3: a book you can get wherever you get your books.

824
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 3: Thanks always hear A suproduce Christina Executive producing my under

825
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 3: contributor Joey.

826
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for.

827
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,400
Speaker 3: Listening Stuff Never Told Yous fiction by Heart Radio. For

828
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check out

829
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 3: the heart Radio app, a podcast, or wherever you listen

830
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.

831
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 1: We're not known over he