Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights
Speaker 1: into the mind brained behavior and creativity. I'm doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation
Speaker 1: with a guest. He will stimulate your mind and give
Speaker 1: you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world
Speaker 1: to live in. Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into
Speaker 1: human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. Today
Speaker 1: we have Orin J. Sofer on the podcast. So teaches
Speaker 1: meditation and communication nationally. He holds a degree in comparative
Speaker 1: religion from Columbia University and is a member of the
Speaker 1: Spirit Rock Teachers Council. He's also a certified Trainer of
Speaker 1: Nonviolent Communication, a somatic experiencing practitioner for healing trauma, and
Speaker 1: he is the senior program developer at Mindful Schools. So
Speaker 1: is the author of the book Say what You Mean,
Speaker 1: a Mindful Approach to non Violent Communication or I'm so
Speaker 1: great to shout with you today. Hey, thanks for having
Speaker 1: me Scott. It's my pleasure already and I will try
Speaker 1: to be as mindful as possible in this conversation. Usually
Speaker 1: what that means for me is that I slow down
Speaker 1: talking a little bit. So listeners of the podcast may
Speaker 1: wonder why Scott breck Hoffman is a little bit slower
Speaker 1: and has talked tonight right on. Yeah, slowing down can
Speaker 1: be a very helpful tool for mindfulness in communication. When
Speaker 1: we get in conversation, you know, the tendency is to
Speaker 1: focus all of our attention out there on the other person,
Speaker 1: and then we lose the sense of, well, what's actually
Speaker 1: happening here with me? And if we're not actually present,
Speaker 1: it's more difficult to have a meaningful conversation, let alone
Speaker 1: when there's any kind of conflict or tension. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: agree with that a lot. Well, I don't imagine there'll
Speaker 1: be too much conflict or tension. It's not like I'm
Speaker 1: going to take the stance like no, I think we
Speaker 1: should have more violent communication in the world today. But
Speaker 1: it'd be nice to go through some of your nuanced
Speaker 1: approach to a non violent communication you have. What's really
Speaker 1: quite unique about this book of yours is that you
Speaker 1: integrate Marshall Rosenberg's system of non violent communication with ancient
Speaker 1: Buddha wisdom. Could you start off by telling you a
Speaker 1: little bit about Marshall Rosenberg's system. I actually haven't heard
Speaker 1: of it. I'm sorry. It's so recognized and I haven't
Speaker 1: heard of it, so please yeah, sure, absolutely so. Marshall
Speaker 1: Rosenberg grew in Detroit in the forties and he lived
Speaker 1: through the race riots that happened there, and I think
Speaker 1: it was forty three or forty four, and there were
Speaker 1: a few dozen people who were killed just within a
Speaker 1: couple blocks of his house. And this had a really
Speaker 1: strong impact on him, like as a young boy recognizing like, wow,
Speaker 1: you know, there are people in this world who might
Speaker 1: want to do violence to you because of the color
Speaker 1: of your skin. And then a little while later, as
Speaker 1: he was growing up, he and his father experienced a
Speaker 1: lot of anti Semitism and threats to their physical safety.
Speaker 1: And so then he had another realization, you know, Okay,
Speaker 1: people might want to hurt me because of my last name.
Speaker 1: And so this made a really deep impression on him
Speaker 1: and left him with a very strong question of what
Speaker 1: makes the difference between one person in a situation when
Speaker 1: their needs aren't met, when they're faced with difficulties and challenges,
Speaker 1: that person will resort to violence, and another person in
Speaker 1: a similar situation somehow has the capacity to stay connected
Speaker 1: to the sense of shared humanity or compassion, or some
Speaker 1: deeper value that doesn't make violence seem like a viable strategy.
Speaker 1: And so what he found was that the way in
Speaker 1: which we think and the way in which we speak,
Speaker 1: which is largely due to the socialization process, has great
Speaker 1: bearing on whether or not we see violence as a
Speaker 1: viable strategy. And so he studied with folks like Carl Rogers,
Speaker 1: founder of humanistic psychology. Many folks on your podcast probably
Speaker 1: familiar with him and his work, and through his own
Speaker 1: research his study with Rogers developed this system a process
Speaker 1: both of awareness inside ourselfs and communication with others that
Speaker 1: makes it easier to stay connected to our deeper values
Speaker 1: and to one another's. And he called it nonviolent communication
Speaker 1: specifically to place it within the tradition of Gandhian and
Speaker 1: King He and nonviolence because he saw the connection between
Speaker 1: the ways in which we think, perceive, and speak and
Speaker 1: the way our society is structured and the social systems
Speaker 1: in our world, and really saw it not only as
Speaker 1: a tool for interpersonal communication or personal healing, but also
Speaker 1: for social change. So non violent communication itself is it's
Speaker 1: a process to help create the kind of connection and
Speaker 1: meaning that we want in our lives with ourselves, with
Speaker 1: others in our communities. And it's really focused on how
Speaker 1: do we speak in a way that will get our
Speaker 1: deeper meaning. I mean, you could say, like our heart
Speaker 1: or what's most important to us across to others in
Speaker 1: a way that they can hear. And how do we
Speaker 1: learn to listen to other people in a way that
Speaker 1: we can understand what they're saying, regardless of how they're
Speaker 1: speaking to us, whether they're blaming us or judging us,
Speaker 1: that we can actually hear something more fundamental than the
Speaker 1: words or the concepts that they're using. So interesting. I
Speaker 1: wonder how much he influenced Rogers. And I mean obviously
Speaker 1: Rogers influenced him, but I wonder how much you inforced
Speaker 1: Rogers This notion of unconditional positive regard that was central
Speaker 1: to rogers approach. Does that have a name or like
Speaker 1: a shade in this particular framework. Absolutely, And I think
Speaker 1: that one of the things that's so powerful about nonviolent
Speaker 1: communication is the training in the framework that really gives
Speaker 1: some traction to like, well, how do we do that,
Speaker 1: you know, how do we maintain unconditional positive regard? And
Speaker 1: so the core of nonviolent communication is founded on some
Speaker 1: of Mendel's work and Maslow's work on the hierarchy of
Speaker 1: needs and really understanding the basic premise of humanistic psychology,
Speaker 1: which you know, I'm sure you're familiar with, so just
Speaker 1: to kind of name it for your listeners, which is
Speaker 1: that human beings do stuff. We're motivated by deeper needs.
Speaker 1: We do stuff because there's something that's important to us,
Speaker 1: and that all of our actions and behaviors can be
Speaker 1: understood as an attempt, successful or unsuccessful, conscious or unconscious,
Speaker 1: and attempt to meet some deeper need, and that these
Speaker 1: needs are shared, that they're on some level more universal,
Speaker 1: and so in terms of unconditional positive regard, when we
Speaker 1: can see and connect with someone on the level of
Speaker 1: their deeper needs, that allows us to see them in
Speaker 1: a positive light. The way that Marshall used to talk
Speaker 1: about it, he had a very kind of lighthearted way
Speaker 1: of speaking about these things, is they actually would sing
Speaker 1: a song called see Me Beautiful, and he would kind
Speaker 1: of joke about, you know, whenever someone's saying anything, in
Speaker 1: some sense, they're asking us to see, to see this
Speaker 1: part of them, to see what's truest about them. And
Speaker 1: so one of the understandings here is that you know,
Speaker 1: all of our judgments are blame, even violence, are these
Speaker 1: kind of counterproductive and in some ways tragic expressions of
Speaker 1: our unmet needs. You know, Yeah, it's profound when we
Speaker 1: really step back and look at it, and it shows
Speaker 1: up in like, in the most simple and innocuous ways
Speaker 1: in our day to day life. You know, Like one
Speaker 1: of the examples that that I give a lot when
Speaker 1: I teach that a lot of people can relate to.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, you live with somebody and they're a
Speaker 1: messier than you are. You know, they don't keep things
Speaker 1: as clean as you do. Okay, how do we see them? Right,
Speaker 1: we see them. They're messy, They're a slob. You're inconsiderate
Speaker 1: if the tables are turned, and like you like things
Speaker 1: neater than I do. You know, I like things a
Speaker 1: little bit more loose around the edges. Now you become controlling, obsessive,
Speaker 1: a neat freak, right anal So what happens is that
Speaker 1: whatever's going on for me then gets projected out there
Speaker 1: onto you my unmet needs, whether it's for relaxation and
Speaker 1: you know, kind of the space just being chill, or
Speaker 1: having some more like order and cleanliness and beauty. Those
Speaker 1: unmet needs become about something wrong with you, and I
Speaker 1: blame you. Our minds are conditioned to kind of think
Speaker 1: in that way. And then if we step back from
Speaker 1: it and think about all right, now, if I want
Speaker 1: you to do something different for me right, whether it's
Speaker 1: clean up the kitchen or in an intimate relationship, you know,
Speaker 1: spend more time with me, or in a work relationship,
Speaker 1: give me more information about the project. If I want
Speaker 1: you to help me out in some way. How useful
Speaker 1: of a strategy is it to tell you all the
Speaker 1: things that are wrong with you and blame you. But
Speaker 1: that's the way our minds work. That's the way we've
Speaker 1: been socialized to think and speak when our needs aren't met.
Speaker 1: So we can actually start to dial that back and
Speaker 1: become aware of our experience and the messages of others
Speaker 1: are sending us in this different way by seeing things
Speaker 1: through the lens of human needs, and that really helps
Speaker 1: us to access this sense of unconditional positive regard because
Speaker 1: we can see the humanity of another person, like, oh,
Speaker 1: this person's really just longing for some more consideration or
Speaker 1: to be included or you know, they want some more trust.
Speaker 1: I love that you said a lot of really juicy
Speaker 1: things there. You know, as a distinguished between deficiency motivation
Speaker 1: and growth motivation, it seems like it's not a healthy
Speaker 1: relationships are healthiest when both are having this growth orientation.
Speaker 1: But when you kind of enter relationship with the hope
Speaker 1: that that person is going to fulfill some deficiency in
Speaker 1: you or some a big hole in your heart, right,
Speaker 1: you know, that kind of sets you up for disappointment. Probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that you mentioned that, because this
Speaker 1: points to something that's like really at the heart of
Speaker 1: these tools, and it's one of the things that's the
Speaker 1: hardest to teach in some ways, because it's a fairly subtle,
Speaker 1: subtle point, you know, which is that it's our relationship
Speaker 1: with these deeper needs or values that matters. And whether
Speaker 1: we're coming at it from that sense of lack and deficiency,
Speaker 1: like I don't have enough of this and I need
Speaker 1: it and I have to have it, there gets this
Speaker 1: like quality of desperation to it versus the sense that
Speaker 1: sense of growth, where we're we're approaching it from a
Speaker 1: place inside of really recognizing the value, the joy, the
Speaker 1: beauty almost of like, yeah, this is just a part
Speaker 1: of being human, and it's in me and it's in you,
Speaker 1: and it's something that we can enjoy and experience together
Speaker 1: if we're able to hear each other and collaborate. There's
Speaker 1: more I want to say about that, but I just
Speaker 1: want to want to pause there and see if you
Speaker 1: want to add anything. No, that's good. Why don't you
Speaker 1: continue that threat? Okay, okay, sure. So. So the first
Speaker 1: thing is, you know, we're throwing around this word need,
Speaker 1: and that word carries a lot of cultural baggage, particularly
Speaker 1: in the West, and so it's important to clarify that
Speaker 1: what do we mean by that. It doesn't mean being needy,
Speaker 1: doesn't mean being selfish, doesn't mean being dependent. What it
Speaker 1: points to is the reality that we're social creatures and
Speaker 1: we survive interdependently. We've got certain physiological needs that's really
Speaker 1: obvious to see food, air, water, But we have relational needs,
Speaker 1: you know, as human beings. That's what you focus on
Speaker 1: in your book. Yeah, yeah, looking at the whole range.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of it's about relationship, but we
Speaker 1: have needs for understanding, for empathy, for connection, for play,
Speaker 1: for things like that. And then we have what we
Speaker 1: could call higher needs. I think Maslow called them needs
Speaker 1: for self actualization. Some people call them spiritual needs. But
Speaker 1: there's that sense that there's something more to us as
Speaker 1: human beings than our material reality and the particular time
Speaker 1: and place period of history in which we're born, that
Speaker 1: there is something transpersonal, that there's some sense of deeper
Speaker 1: meaning or purpose or fulfillment in life. We have this
Speaker 1: sense of some higher needs and that all of those matter.
Speaker 1: So needs are these deeper values. One of the phrases
Speaker 1: I like to use about them is that it's what
Speaker 1: matters to us, and this is why we do stuff.
Speaker 1: It's what motivates us in life. And the relational needs
Speaker 1: and the higher needs that we have. We can only
Speaker 1: go so long without those needs being meant to before
Speaker 1: something starts to get damaged inside. We need them, you know,
Speaker 1: like human beings need to be seen and understood, just
Speaker 1: as much as we need food and water. The damage
Speaker 1: just gets further delayed in time, you know. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: the question is how do we relate to these to
Speaker 1: these needs. And that sense of deficiency is where there's
Speaker 1: this sense of like I get really identified with it,
Speaker 1: and there's this quality of almost a desperation or an
Speaker 1: obsessiveness quality of demand. I have to have this. I
Speaker 1: don't have enough of it, and I need it. That's
Speaker 1: a very difficult place to engage from in relationship and conversation. Like,
Speaker 1: whenever we've got that energy of demand present, it makes
Speaker 1: it really hard for other people to have space for
Speaker 1: us because it's going to push their autonomy. Buttons, it's like, now,
Speaker 1: if you're coming at me with that energy, I got
Speaker 1: to take care of myself and make sure that my
Speaker 1: autonomy is in check, because that's also really important to me.
Speaker 1: So one of the key shifts is not only first
Speaker 1: and this is a huge step, but just being aware
Speaker 1: of my own needs what actually matters to me, starting
Speaker 1: to be aware of others' needs, and then being in
Speaker 1: that process and that tension of how do we hold
Speaker 1: both together. A lot of our conditioning growing up is
Speaker 1: that we learn, you know, whenever there's a different, when
Speaker 1: there's a difference or a conflict, a lot of the
Speaker 1: lessons that we see as a child and around us
Speaker 1: are well, the person with more power is going to win,
Speaker 1: and one person's gonna get what they want, and one
Speaker 1: person's gonna end up with a short stick, and I
Speaker 1: know which side, I know which end I want to
Speaker 1: be on, So I'm going to do everything I can
Speaker 1: to kind of manipulate and control and dominate the situation,
Speaker 1: or I get conditioned the other way where I'm just
Speaker 1: not even going to try, So I'm going to just
Speaker 1: give it a give up to try to keep the peace.
Speaker 1: So we get all these patterns around it, and this
Speaker 1: whole process is one of realizing that there's another possibility.
Speaker 1: And I think we've all had experiences like that where
Speaker 1: we have some difference or conflict with somebody and we're
Speaker 1: able to come out the other side stronger, closer, We
Speaker 1: find a new level of connection or meaning in the relationship,
Speaker 1: and that opens the possibility recognizing instead of it being
Speaker 1: either or, as is saying conflict resolution circle, there's the
Speaker 1: both and like, oh there's another way here, Like I
Speaker 1: can tend to both my needs and yours. To be
Speaker 1: able to do that, we have to explore and transform
Speaker 1: our relationship with our needs and values from that quality
Speaker 1: of deficiency or not enough in lack to one of recognizing,
Speaker 1: you know, this is something that has value and worth
Speaker 1: to it, regardless of whether or not it's satisfied in
Speaker 1: the way I want. Yeah, can you unpack this notion
Speaker 1: of relational awareness a bit more? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So.
Speaker 1: Mindfulness and awareness practice usually we think about as being
Speaker 1: aware of my own experience, you know. So a lot
Speaker 1: of contemplative practice is focused on stabilizing attention with what
Speaker 1: we call a primary object, like the breath, body, sensations,
Speaker 1: starting to open to emotions, thoughts, I'm tracking the flow
Speaker 1: of my moment to moment experience, right. So obviously life
Speaker 1: is more than just what's happening here. There's this whole
Speaker 1: world out there. So the human organism is by definition relational.
Speaker 1: We're continually in relationship with our environment. So when we're
Speaker 1: in balance, when we're not under threat, our natural state
Speaker 1: is to be relaxed and alert, to be oriented to
Speaker 1: our environment and connected and aware of what's going on
Speaker 1: around us. So this sense of I can be aware
Speaker 1: of myself, I can be aware of my surroundings, and
Speaker 1: I can experience the relationship between them. That the experience
Speaker 1: of being alive is one of mutuality. That I am
Speaker 1: affected by the world around me, the wind blows, you know,
Speaker 1: the rainfalls, that I feel something and I affect the
Speaker 1: world around me, I can touch things, I can and
Speaker 1: move things that we have some influence over our environment.
Speaker 1: And so relational awareness is actually practicing. How do we
Speaker 1: enhance that capacity so that and use it to our advantage,
Speaker 1: so that within a conversation, instead of the tendency to
Speaker 1: become consumed with my own experience and be self centered
Speaker 1: or give up abandon myself and be totally focused on you,
Speaker 1: there's this capacity on the level of my consciousness to
Speaker 1: include both of us and start to experience that sense
Speaker 1: of connection. And so that's you know, we talk about
Speaker 1: empathy or unconditional positive regard, that's an experience of relational awareness.
Speaker 1: To have unconditional positive regard means that I see you,
Speaker 1: I recognize your dignity or humanity, your autonomy, and I'm
Speaker 1: still connected to myself. I'm here with you. There's this
Speaker 1: experience right of meeting. That's you know, what Boober talked about,
Speaker 1: the sense of the all real living is meeting that
Speaker 1: there is an experience of two of us together. And
Speaker 1: what's fascinating to me, Scott about this is, you know,
Speaker 1: in terms of like the contemplative practice, this is really
Speaker 1: the nature of consciousness. If we look at our experience
Speaker 1: of the human mind. It's a relational experience. Awareness is
Speaker 1: always awareness of something. So right now, as we sit
Speaker 1: here and talk and see one another and listen to
Speaker 1: one another, you know, we're each knowing this experience. So
Speaker 1: there's the sense of what's being seen, and there's the
Speaker 1: sense of seeing, there's a sense of what there's what's
Speaker 1: being heard, and there's a sense of hearing. That's relationship.
Speaker 1: So the mind itself is an experience of a relationship happening.
Speaker 1: And the more awareness we bring to that process, the
Speaker 1: more flexibility, the more choice, the more more agility we
Speaker 1: have in life. It's one of the things that I'm
Speaker 1: a little self conscious because I'm talking a lot, and
Speaker 1: I love to talk about this stuff, so I want
Speaker 1: to leave them. But if I wasn't listening, then I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be following your the path you put forward in
Speaker 1: your book. Okay, if I add one more thing here,
Speaker 1: and then of course, okay, great. You know, one of
Speaker 1: the things that I like to trip out on and
Speaker 1: that I talk about a lot, is this kind of
Speaker 1: one of those insights into the blazingly obvious that we
Speaker 1: all communicate pretty much all day long in every area
Speaker 1: of our life even when we're alone, right if it's not,
Speaker 1: if we're not you know, texting someone or engaging on
Speaker 1: social media, even when we're alone with our thoughts, there's
Speaker 1: still this kind of inner dialogue happening. So we're doing
Speaker 1: it all day long, every context of our life. It's
Speaker 1: one of the main factors that determines our success professionally,
Speaker 1: the health and quality of our relationships at home with friends.
Speaker 1: And yet most of us receive zero training in it,
Speaker 1: you know, zero explicit training. The trick, the kind of
Speaker 1: cruel trick, is that we all get a whole lot
Speaker 1: of training in communication. It's just it's just unconscious. We
Speaker 1: were trained by our family, by our schools, by the media,
Speaker 1: by our society. Then we pick up a lot of
Speaker 1: unhealthy habits. So if we're looking for change and growth
Speaker 1: in our life, like one of the primary nexus is
Speaker 1: for that, Like if we make if we start to
Speaker 1: make changes in our communication, that's going to affect everything
Speaker 1: because it's how we're interfacing with the world for the
Speaker 1: most part. So it's a super powerful lever for creating
Speaker 1: positive change personally, professionally, socially. I really like that, Uh,
Speaker 1: Like you tie communication to all the needs so you
Speaker 1: can kind of use it in the healthiest way to
Speaker 1: satisfy your needs in set to satisfy needs in the
Speaker 1: healthiest way in your framework. Leading with presence or relational
Speaker 1: awareness is really just the first step, right, Can we
Speaker 1: talk about kind of where you're the place that you
Speaker 1: come from also matters. Yeah. Yeah, So that sense of
Speaker 1: that sense of presence or be really being here and embodied,
Speaker 1: that's the foundation, obviously, because if we're not here, if
Speaker 1: we're not present, very difficult to understand anything, very difficult
Speaker 1: to have a meaningful conversation. So, you know, whenever I teach,
Speaker 1: I start off usually having people reflect on why are
Speaker 1: you here? You know, plenty of other things you could
Speaker 1: be doing right now, Why did you choose to come
Speaker 1: here today? And I ask people to really reflect on
Speaker 1: it and think what's important to you? Why did you
Speaker 1: come here? And people say the most beautiful things. You know,
Speaker 1: I want more harmony in my life. I want more clarity,
Speaker 1: I want more connection, I want more peace, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to be closer to the people in my life.
Speaker 1: I want to be more effective. We know what we want,
Speaker 1: know what those needs are. The question is how how
Speaker 1: how do we create the conditions in our life to
Speaker 1: start to realize those deeper intentions. And so that sense
Speaker 1: of mindfulness and presence is the first step. It gets
Speaker 1: us on the map. What you're pointing to is okay,
Speaker 1: once we're there, once we're in the ballpark, are we
Speaker 1: headed in the right direction where we pointed? So the
Speaker 1: next main training and step that I teach with communication
Speaker 1: is about our intention, which is, as you said, where
Speaker 1: we're coming from. So the intention is probably the single
Speaker 1: most powerful and transformative ingredient in dialogue. Why as we
Speaker 1: were chatting before we started, as you were saying, you know,
Speaker 1: there's so much more to communication than just the words. Right.
Speaker 1: The figures range, but most social scientists agree that like
Speaker 1: seventy five percent or more of our communications nonverbal. Right.
Speaker 1: It's in the tone of voice, it's in the facial expression,
Speaker 1: it's in our body gestures. It's in intangible things, right,
Speaker 1: like that gut sense interoception, how we actually in our
Speaker 1: nerves start to pick up and feel information from the
Speaker 1: other person. So I say this over and over and
Speaker 1: over again when I teach and work with people. Communications
Speaker 1: not about what we say, It's about where we're coming from.
Speaker 1: And the quality of understanding and connection that we're able
Speaker 1: to create. So what does intention have to do with this, Well,
Speaker 1: our intention where we're coming from, that's what actually starts
Speaker 1: to animate our body language, our facial expression, our tone
Speaker 1: of voice. And when all those nonverbal cues don't match
Speaker 1: the words, which do we trust? Right? We trust what
Speaker 1: our body's picking up. We trust the tone of voice
Speaker 1: and the gesture more than someone's words. So you can
Speaker 1: say something in you know, the kind of prettiest, most
Speaker 1: fancy perfect communic way. If your intention is off, if
Speaker 1: you're really just trying to pull one over on somebody
Speaker 1: or manipulate them or get ahead, they're going to feel it.
Speaker 1: They're gonna feel it. So that's actually where the transformation
Speaker 1: has to happen and why intention is so powerful, because
Speaker 1: if we do nothing else in our communication but try
Speaker 1: to cultivate a more sincere and genuine intention to understand
Speaker 1: the other person and create an experience of mutual respect
Speaker 1: and understanding, that can change the whole trajectory of a dialogue,
Speaker 1: let alone a relationship. So yeah, completely, completely, So, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the level of divisiveness and ill will and
Speaker 1: hostility that's exhibited in the public discourse today, you know,
Speaker 1: like where's the sense of mutual respect, desire for understanding, collaboration,
Speaker 1: willingness to work together to honor the deeper values or
Speaker 1: concerns that are being represented. So the key here again
Speaker 1: is that what mindfulness does is it allows us to
Speaker 1: start to be aware of those impulses and trajectories that
Speaker 1: are happening, Like where am I coming from? What is
Speaker 1: my intention here? You know? How much am I just
Speaker 1: trying to be right or prove my point or get
Speaker 1: my way? And is that ultimately going to give me
Speaker 1: what I want? You know, one of the things that
Speaker 1: you know, Marshall Rosenberg used to talk about passed away
Speaker 1: a few years ago, always made the point that, you know,
Speaker 1: those strategies of blame, judgment, manipulation, being right, proving my point,
Speaker 1: they work to a certain extent, right, Like, we can
Speaker 1: produce results in those ways, but they come at a cost.
Speaker 1: Every time I use my power or I use one
Speaker 1: of those methods to get someone to do what I want,
Speaker 1: it comes at a cost in the quality of our relationship,
Speaker 1: the quality of trust or goodwill. In professional settings, you know,
Speaker 1: when supervisors use fear, punishment, even reward to a certain
Speaker 1: extent to motivate their teams. The quality the work goes
Speaker 1: down because people aren't connected to the value. You know,
Speaker 1: what one of our other deepest needs as human beings
Speaker 1: is the need to contribute in a meaningful way. You know,
Speaker 1: That's why we want to do stuff, not because we're
Speaker 1: afraid we're going to get canned or shamed or you know,
Speaker 1: ostracized if we don't do a good job. And so
Speaker 1: intention is a key factor there Where am I coming from?
Speaker 1: So we can start to be aware of those intentions,
Speaker 1: the default habitual intentions we have, and we can start
Speaker 1: to transition to change them. And what's so powerful about
Speaker 1: intention is that the way our mind works where intention
Speaker 1: directs where we look. You know, when a thief looks
Speaker 1: at a house, all they see are the windows and
Speaker 1: the doors and the locks. When an architect looks at
Speaker 1: a house, all they see is the construction and the
Speaker 1: how it was built and what style it was made in.
Speaker 1: So our intention, how we're looking and what we want
Speaker 1: and where we're looking from a starts to shape our experience.
Speaker 1: So if my intention is to get what I want,
Speaker 1: then everyone around me becomes an object that I have
Speaker 1: to manipulate or an obstacle. That's a very lonely and
Speaker 1: kind of adversarial world to live in. If my intention
Speaker 1: becomes to understand or to experience the deep satisfaction that
Speaker 1: can come in life through participating in the flow of
Speaker 1: give and take, If my intention is to participate with
Speaker 1: life and be in relationship, I start to view things differently.
Speaker 1: I start to come back to Rogers again, you know,
Speaker 1: I start to be able to see other human beings
Speaker 1: not as objects but as subjects. I see their innate value.
Speaker 1: What is you know, this just really reminds me of
Speaker 1: the eye vow relationship as well, absolutely versus it, which
Speaker 1: is what it sounds like. That's what you're contrasting there,
Speaker 1: you know that Martin Buber's work. Yeah, so much of
Speaker 1: this is connected and people have been saying this throughout
Speaker 1: the ages. Like you said, you integrate ancient wisdom with
Speaker 1: the Rosenberg perspective, So it's got to be right at
Speaker 1: this point, it's like it's been tried and tested, Yeah,
Speaker 1: for millennium. Yeah, so that is the second stage, coming
Speaker 1: from curiosity and care. And then let's talk about this
Speaker 1: third stage of focusing on what matters in your opinion
Speaker 1: what matters, like, can we objectively say that there are
Speaker 1: certain things that matter more than others? Thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a great, great question. And what you're referring to
Speaker 1: their Scott is kind of the structure that I use
Speaker 1: to teach communication in the book and when I'm out
Speaker 1: doing workshops and trainings, which is these these three steps
Speaker 1: and trainings of leading with presence showing up coming from
Speaker 1: curiosity and care, this kind of default, having a default
Speaker 1: intention to understand and stay connected to our heart. And
Speaker 1: then the third step of training our attention to focus
Speaker 1: on what matters. So where we place our attention is
Speaker 1: super important. You know. The more we place our attention
Speaker 1: on our judgments, evaluations, fault finding the things we don't like,
Speaker 1: that starts to shape our reality. It's all we see,
Speaker 1: and that makes it very difficult to collaborate or work together.
Speaker 1: Whereas I'm just going to let these sirens go by,
Speaker 1: thank you. Okay, it sounds like something not good is happening, though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I hope that is. Okay. I hope so too. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways, that's a lot more important
Speaker 1: than this conversation to those people. Ded Yeah, someone's life
Speaker 1: someone's life is changing very radically. Yeah, more so the
Speaker 1: smums than this conversation. Yeah, which is yeah good, I
Speaker 1: don't get it wrong of it. Yeah yeah, yeah, So
Speaker 1: what that's that's kind of like right back to the
Speaker 1: question you asked of what matters? What matters? And I
Speaker 1: think that just even holding that question in mind, I
Speaker 1: think starts to shift our perspective in a conversation of like, well,
Speaker 1: what's actually important here? You know, what's this really? What's
Speaker 1: this really about? For me? And a lot of times
Speaker 1: we might not even be aware of that. And this
Speaker 1: is so the at the core, what we're trying to
Speaker 1: do here, at the most fundamental level, is we're trying
Speaker 1: to train ourselves to be aware of the human needs,
Speaker 1: the deeper values or objectives that are at play, because
Speaker 1: that's where the transfertion really happens. That's where we find
Speaker 1: that what we have in common out weighs our differences.
Speaker 1: That's where we find also on a personal level, more choice,
Speaker 1: more clarity and freedom about flexibility. Yeah exactly. And if
Speaker 1: I could just digress for a moment into just a
Speaker 1: short story here to illustrate that that flexibility and choice,
Speaker 1: So the difference when we identify our needs. The key
Speaker 1: difference here is that our strategies are the things that
Speaker 1: we want. The ideas that we have about meeting our needs,
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, reading a book or going out
Speaker 1: for a drink or taking a walk in the park,
Speaker 1: you know, those are those are things that we do
Speaker 1: to meet certain needs. So one guy was doing one
Speaker 1: of these workshops and heard these ideas about all right,
Speaker 1: human beings are motivated by deeper desires to meet their needs,
Speaker 1: and all actions and strategy, all actions and behaviors are
Speaker 1: stress to meet some deeper need. All right. Fine, So
Speaker 1: he's on his way home, He's driving in the car,
Speaker 1: reaches for a cigarette and he pauses. He says, all right, well,
Speaker 1: let's see if this stuff really works, you know. All right,
Speaker 1: if this is true, then I'm trying to meet some
Speaker 1: need by smoking a cigarette. Well that's okay. Well what
Speaker 1: are my needs? What do I want here? And so
Speaker 1: I thought of it. I said, well, you know, I
Speaker 1: just don't want to relax. I want to take a break.
Speaker 1: I want to I want to take my mind off things. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he thought of I said, jeez, I've got better ways
Speaker 1: of relaxing and taking my mind off things and filling
Speaker 1: my lungs with tar. He stopped smoking. So when we're
Speaker 1: when we're when we're not aware, he changed the bark.
Speaker 1: Say again, he changed the bark, smoking bark instead of tar.
Speaker 1: That was right, right, So, when we're not aware of
Speaker 1: what our needs are, we're just driven by either habit
Speaker 1: or fixation on the strategies. When we're aware of what
Speaker 1: actually matters to us, got a lot more flexibility and choice.
Speaker 1: So what matters one a perspect of it is identifying
Speaker 1: this deeper level of our needs. But it also means
Speaker 1: that we're developing a capacity in a relationship, in conversation
Speaker 1: that's really attuned and flexible to okay in this moment,
Speaker 1: because conversation is dynamic, it's always changing, it's not a
Speaker 1: straight line. In this moment right now, what's needed, what's
Speaker 1: most important, and sometimes what's needed is the other person
Speaker 1: wants to be heard. We need to offer some understanding.
Speaker 1: You know, that can be really transformative to just listen
Speaker 1: and offer some understanding for their experience, to give someone
Speaker 1: that relief of feeling heard. Sometimes what's most important is
Speaker 1: to speak up and be authentic and you know, say
Speaker 1: our piece, like listen, like this is really important. I
Speaker 1: really need you to hear this. It's it matters for
Speaker 1: me that you understand the impact this had on me.
Speaker 1: And then within that, this is where the training of
Speaker 1: the process of nonviolent communication comes in. We can learn
Speaker 1: learn to train our attention to identify these different components
Speaker 1: of our experience as human beings that tend to be
Speaker 1: more reliable ways of building understanding and connection. So we
Speaker 1: can train our attention to focus on what in non
Speaker 1: violent communication we call observations, which is, rather than our
Speaker 1: interpretations and stories and judgments about what happened. You don't
Speaker 1: care about me, or you know, you're just ignoring me,
Speaker 1: or you blew me off. Okay, well that's your experience,
Speaker 1: that's your interpretation, but what actually happened. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're going to talk to this person about that and
Speaker 1: you start off there, they're probably going to get defensive
Speaker 1: and be like, that was not what happened. But if
Speaker 1: you say, you know, like, look, I called you last
Speaker 1: week and I haven't heard from you since. Oh, that's
Speaker 1: an observation. There's nothing to argue with there. That's what happened.
Speaker 1: So we can train ourselves to notice observations. We can
Speaker 1: train ourselves. Sometimes what matters are the emotions. It's a
Speaker 1: lot of life energy in our feelings. Have we developed
Speaker 1: the capacity not only to be aware of our emotions,
Speaker 1: but to manage and tolerate their intensity, to be able
Speaker 1: to witness and hear other people's emotional experience without freaking
Speaker 1: out or getting really uncomfortable. It's just an emotion, you know,
Speaker 1: So what happened, how we feel about it? Why? Which
Speaker 1: is the needs? What matters? And this is this is
Speaker 1: a key understanding here, that we feel things because there's
Speaker 1: something that matters to us, That our emotions are signals
Speaker 1: that point to our values, or other people's emotions are
Speaker 1: signals that point to their values. And then the fourth
Speaker 1: component is where do we go from here? Like what's next?
Speaker 1: What would actually be helpful? And this is about learning
Speaker 1: to make requests, learning to move a conversation forward to
Speaker 1: one step at a time. Nice. I really like in
Speaker 1: your book how you talk about the do over? You
Speaker 1: know that, like how often do we as adults do
Speaker 1: the do over? And I just love that, Like can
Speaker 1: you talk a little about that because you often see,
Speaker 1: like you know, a couple will fight and they'll be
Speaker 1: like that's it we're getting divorced. It's like they don't
Speaker 1: ever say like they don't have to wake up the ignoring.
Speaker 1: How often do couples wake up the nextmore? Let's do over? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I am a huge fan of a doo. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know about you, but you know, when I
Speaker 1: was a kid, we used to play ball out in
Speaker 1: the streets, and you know, and anytime it was like,
Speaker 1: once the disagreement got to a certain point, it was
Speaker 1: just like someone would just call out, do over, right,
Speaker 1: and it's just like yeah, and it's just like okay,
Speaker 1: like let's just just start again. And it's almost never
Speaker 1: too late to do a do over. And that might
Speaker 1: be in the in the process of the conversation itself,
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden, for whatever reason, like mindfulness
Speaker 1: returns and we realize, okay, this is not going well,
Speaker 1: this is not where how I intended for things to be.
Speaker 1: I'm getting really like snarky here, and we could just
Speaker 1: own it, just step up to the plate, be like
Speaker 1: all right, hold on, I'm sorry, I want to this
Speaker 1: is not where I want to be coming. I really
Speaker 1: had an intention to try to make some peace here
Speaker 1: and hear each other. Can we start over. What if
Speaker 1: they don't want it? What if they say no? What
Speaker 1: if they ghost? Do they stop it responding to your messages? Right, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're like, look, I like I love you, Like like,
Speaker 1: let's do a do over and give me another chance.
Speaker 1: And but you never hear from them ever again. Like
Speaker 1: what do you do? Then? Just cry yourself to sleep
Speaker 1: every night hopefully not but stay in minds. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: tragic how common that sense of disconnecting of just cutting
Speaker 1: off contact is and it's super painful. I just want
Speaker 1: to like, I'll answer your question. I have strategies, definitely,
Speaker 1: and like I want to just make some space and
Speaker 1: leave a moment for the reality that like that it
Speaker 1: hurts a lot when that happens. And there's something I
Speaker 1: use the word tragic to me, there's something tragic about
Speaker 1: it because we are it seems to me to stimulate
Speaker 1: this like very like deep ancient kind of mechanism around
Speaker 1: belonging to the tribe, right, Like I'm going to be excommunicated,
Speaker 1: you know, I have been shut out, And so I
Speaker 1: think it's a reflection of how little learning we have
Speaker 1: around how to deal with conflict and the lack of
Speaker 1: understanding that conflict is where we discover intimacy. It's where
Speaker 1: we actually learn to see each other, is through our differences,
Speaker 1: and it's so rare to actually start to use conflict
Speaker 1: as an opportunity to connect and to learn. And when
Speaker 1: we don't do that, when we avoid conflict, when we
Speaker 1: cut off, not only do we miss the opportunity to
Speaker 1: deepen a relationship or to learn or to grow, but
Speaker 1: even deeper than that, I think that we miss one
Speaker 1: of the most valuable opportunities in life, which is the
Speaker 1: chance to learn how to make peace. Every time we
Speaker 1: blow someone off, we miss the opportunity to learn how
Speaker 1: to stop being at war in ourself with others, and
Speaker 1: and that translates outward into the lack of ability to
Speaker 1: to get along that we see around the planet. So
Speaker 1: what do we do? What do we do when someone
Speaker 1: stops being in touch? Well, what what's happened is, in essence,
Speaker 1: the silence has become their only message. So you could
Speaker 1: say that in some sense there's still a communication there,
Speaker 1: but it's just the silence that's their message to us.
Speaker 1: And so I think that there are different things that
Speaker 1: I recommend, and I do talk about this in the book.
Speaker 1: You know, each there's a I do Q and a's
Speaker 1: in the book and it's one of the questions that
Speaker 1: comes up. And so there I think there's two or
Speaker 1: three options. So one option is reaching out and getting
Speaker 1: support from someone else, you know. So one of the
Speaker 1: things that's not necessarily I mean maybe eventually, but that's
Speaker 1: called what's what do they call that? The rebound? Yeah,
Speaker 1: is that your advice find a rebound quickly, not at all,
Speaker 1: And that usually doesn't solve the problem. In fact, that
Speaker 1: usually perpetuates and recreates it. No, find a friend, find
Speaker 1: a mentor find an elder, find somebody who has that
Speaker 1: capacity to offer understanding to you and express your pain
Speaker 1: to them and say, look, you know, I'm really just
Speaker 1: hurting about this, and it would be really helpful if
Speaker 1: you just have some space to listen and just you know,
Speaker 1: kind of kind of hear me, that would be really
Speaker 1: meaningful and invite them into that space. And so that
Speaker 1: can bring some healing in some relief. It's one of
Speaker 1: the things that I find so powerful about being alive
Speaker 1: is that the past is still present in the sense
Speaker 1: that when our memories arise, we're experiencing them here and now,
Speaker 1: and even people who have who have died, who have
Speaker 1: passed away. If we have unfinished business with them, it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we can't resolve it, that that the
Speaker 1: psyche can still come to a state of resolution, wholeness,
Speaker 1: integration around relationships, conflicts with people who are long gone
Speaker 1: internally in relationship to our own experience. So, you know,
Speaker 1: how do we resolve a conflict with someone who's passed away?
Speaker 1: You know, I think it is possible. I've seen it.
Speaker 1: I've seen it in myself, I've seen it in others.
Speaker 1: And so one step is to reach out to someone
Speaker 1: and get support. But the next step is to do
Speaker 1: the healing work inside ourself, to work with Number one mourning.
Speaker 1: M Oh, you are mourning. So the sense of regret,
Speaker 1: sadness around maybe things that we've done or said that
Speaker 1: we wish we had done differently, that's one. Number two
Speaker 1: to turn towards forgiveness. Forgiveness happens on its own time schedule.
Speaker 1: It's not something we can force ourselves to do. It's
Speaker 1: a natural process that takes time. But forgiveness is not
Speaker 1: about absolving another for their harmful actions. It's about freeing
Speaker 1: our own heart from resentment. It's something we do for
Speaker 1: ourself so we can work to mourn and to forgive
Speaker 1: in our own heart and to come to a place
Speaker 1: of peace and self compassion. Yeah. Yeah, so that's the second.
Speaker 1: The third, you know, if the person is still on
Speaker 1: the planet, if they are still alive, giving them space, right,
Speaker 1: because usually when there's that cutting off, the person's in pain.
Speaker 1: You know, they're probably angry too, but underneath that there's pain.
Speaker 1: There's so much pain that what they're saying in some
Speaker 1: sense is I am in so much pain that it's
Speaker 1: too painful to even be in touch with you. Or
Speaker 1: this has been so hard for me that I no
Speaker 1: longer am willing to take the energy to put into
Speaker 1: our relationship or conversation because I don't have any trust
Speaker 1: or faith that that's going to ultimately be contributing to me. Right,
Speaker 1: those are some of the messages that they might be sending.
Speaker 1: So acknowledging that giving some space and then extending the
Speaker 1: possibility of sending a message with a very open invitation,
Speaker 1: so some sense of taking responsibility for our part, you know,
Speaker 1: being able to offer that to open the door, like, hey,
Speaker 1: I know I did and said some things that were
Speaker 1: really messed up or you know, hurtful. I feel deep
Speaker 1: regret about that. If there's any way you might be
Speaker 1: open to being in touch and trying to patch things up,
Speaker 1: it would be really meaningful for me. I'd love to
Speaker 1: offer some understanding for your experience and then we have
Speaker 1: to let go. Then we have then the balls in
Speaker 1: their court, you know. But I think sending a message
Speaker 1: like that, where we're expressing something sincere from our heart
Speaker 1: and giving the invitation to say, like, look, you know,
Speaker 1: I want to make this right if you've got the
Speaker 1: space for it. It sounds like vulnerability is part and
Speaker 1: perceel of this process. Then it is. It is, and
Speaker 1: you know it's it's again. It's something that I teach
Speaker 1: a lot about, which is vulnerability. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: strength and vulnerability. It takes a lot of courage to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable, and it means that we're not afraid. You know,
Speaker 1: when we're willing to be vulnerable, things don't rattle us
Speaker 1: as much because it's when we're trying to protect against
Speaker 1: our exactly that armor and protection is actually painful and
Speaker 1: a little bit frightening. And that doesn't mean that we're
Speaker 1: going to be really vulnerable and open with everyone we
Speaker 1: have to use discernment and wisdom about you know what
Speaker 1: we share with it. I'm warning that lesson. I'm vulnerable
Speaker 1: to everyone, even my all my guests as well. You
Speaker 1: did not do that so much. But anyway, look, how
Speaker 1: can people who are listening to this learn more tools
Speaker 1: to have this kind of very healthy form of communication. Yeah? Sure,
Speaker 1: So my website is a great resource. I've got a
Speaker 1: ton of articles on there, talks and guided meditations. It's
Speaker 1: orangejsofur dot com. The other great resource is if folks
Speaker 1: want to learn more or stay in touch, I share
Speaker 1: a free article, meditation or online event in my newsletter
Speaker 1: once or twice a month and comes with six free
Speaker 1: guided meditations and an ebook and stuff like that. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so anyone who wants to stay in touch can can
Speaker 1: sign up for that just by text message. You just
Speaker 1: text the word guided like a guided meditation. If they
Speaker 1: text the word guided to four four two two two,
Speaker 1: it'll walk you through all the steps and the free
Speaker 1: gifts and some resources from me once or twice a month.
Speaker 1: Well that's great, that's really exciting. So I want to
Speaker 1: thank you for this really interesting conversation, very lucidating conversation,
Speaker 1: and I want to end with a quote that I
Speaker 1: really like for your book, Finding Your Voice, Learning how
Speaker 1: to say what you mean and how to listen deeply.
Speaker 1: This is one of the most rewarding journeys you can take.
Speaker 1: Thanks for telling all of our listeners about this journey today.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Scott, Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast. I hope you
Speaker 1: enjoyed this episode. If you'd like to react in some
Speaker 1: way to something you heard, I encourage you to join
Speaker 1: in the discussion at thus Psychology podcast dot com. That's
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Speaker 1: and review of the Psychology Podcast on iTunes. Thanks for
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Speaker 1: and creativity.