WEBVTT - Total Depravity 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.200 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:08.719 descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:22.400 M History has written. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.120 At the hands of those who win. 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:35.519 The battle must be over for the writing to begin. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:48.600 Take a piece of paper, an open thing, the feather 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:54.080 and the finger pulls against gray. 0:00:57.720 --> 0:01:06.240 Oh, my stary blast to me, I will try to 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:15.720 build a better life for me. No else will byecause say. 0:01:17.720 --> 0:01:22.959 I'm a survivor, and you'll be mine to me. 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:32.720 That's Jessica Willis Fisher singing her beautiful and moving song 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:36.520 My History from her album Brand New Day. 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.720 I had been told that to be a good daughter, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.319 I must obey that to be a good Christian, I 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:48.360 must submit that to be safe, I had to stay silent. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.320 I had given up my voice to survive. It was 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:56.040 time I took it back. Every beautiful and broken part 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:59.080 of my story was mine. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.040 Jessica's is a story of stunning resilience in the face 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:08.560 of duplicity, deceit, gaslighting, and a childhood marked by ongoing 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:13.600 incessant abuse. It's also the story of being saved by 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.720 an indomitable spirit and by a transcendent gift. And just 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.080 so you know, this finale of our eighth season is 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.440 going to be a two parter. A thank you to 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:29.400 all our amazing and devoted Family Secrets listeners. My story. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:50.400 I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:52.960 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.519 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:05.520 Why childhood our stories start before we even show up 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:09.560 on the scene with all of us. And I had 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.520 a story that you know, at two and a half 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.280 years old, there was a tragedy in my extended family, 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:19.960 and some of my earliest memories were very much framed 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:26.200 and influenced by this very recent occurrence. And by the 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:33.799 time I have a more solid chronological memory starting three 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.040 and a half four years old, it was already so 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:42.160 shaped by these really kind of hard and traumatic events 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:45.400 that all the adults around me were dealing with. And 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:48.480 the way that showed up for me was I knew 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:53.160 that even as my life was getting started, death could 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:58.240 be kind of even just a second away. Being a 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:03.160 super young child and knowing that other young children were 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:09.360 suddenly gone overnight, I think that really shapes you in 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.080 a nutshell. I had some aunts and uncles that had 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.440 passed away in a car accident, and I remember that 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.360 being one of the earliest things that I learned about. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:22.400 I think I had a really kind of loving and innocent, 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:27.400 you know, early life and early years. I was homeschooled. 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:32.360 I was constantly around my mother, who was bright and attentive, 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:39.200 loved to teach, loved babies, loved children, and by the 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:41.400 time I was four years old, there were four kids 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:46.559 in my family. So we learned at home with mom 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:50.560 while dad went to work nine to five for a 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.680 company in Chicago. And we would play blocks, and we 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:58.640 would do our flash cards, and we would learn our 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:01.560 numbers and our shape, you know, as many children do, 0:05:01.680 --> 0:05:03.960 whether it's in the home, whether it's maybe preschool. But 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:08.160 we would go to church on Sundays where my grandpa 0:05:08.279 --> 0:05:12.880 was the pastor, and I'd seen my little friends there 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:17.359 at church, and occasionally my cousins who lived out of 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.880 state but not too far would come in and there 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:23.400 was like a really predictable, kind of wholesome rhythm to 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:27.520 my life. Again, with the asterisk, you know, hanging over 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:35.600 everything is that life isn't necessarily guaranteed, because tragedy can 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:41.040 strike at any moment. Through my young eyes. I thought 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:46.920 my mom was just so full of light and so beautiful. 0:05:47.000 --> 0:05:50.520 She had these freckles on her nose and her eyes. 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.279 You know, it's a cliche, but they really did seem 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:58.400 to sparkle. She had a beautiful smile. She just really 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:02.760 seemed to love what she was doing when she interacted 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.000 with us, whether that be teaching us, whether that be 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:11.240 making food and you know, letting us participate. And I 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:17.760 felt really close to her. Initially, the first nine years 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.040 of my life didn't have any huge changes. It was just, 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.520 you know, school got a little bit more complex and 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:28.599 challenging and fun. We learned to play, you know, songs 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.920 on the piano. We would observe kind of the rhythm 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.919 of as each year went by, things like Easter. You know, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.960 you're just kind of storing up these memories of the 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.400 holidays and the special times and the rhythm with my 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.920 dad going to work. You know, our time with him 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:50.320 was in the evenings and the weekends. Basically every year 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:52.120 to aft there was there was a new kid. And 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:56.120 how do we even know what normal is or if 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:59.800 normal is even a real thing. You know, whatever we 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:02.839 experience day to day that that's all that we know, 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:06.360 especially when we're so young. And the one thing that 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.560 did seem maybe a little outside the norm is I 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.840 knew that not all families had six kids that close together. 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:15.720 But I would say, because of our religion and our 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:20.040 extended family, there were enough families that had lots of 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:24.200 kids that didn't even feel so strange just because of 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:25.520 the environment that I was in. 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:34.080 And was homeschooling part of your parents' religious belief system. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.160 Well, the way that I would have understood that is that, 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.760 particularly on my dad's side of the family, I said, 0:07:41.800 --> 0:07:47.360 my grandfather was a pastor, and I very much interpreted 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.160 and understood that there were a number of things that 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.040 were passed down that Dad was bringing from his family 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.480 and his upbringing, and we're going to be really important 0:07:57.480 --> 0:08:00.040 and foundational in the family that we were building. I 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:05.160 would say those things would be our religion, Protestant Evangelical Christianity. 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.880 My grandpa was a Baptist pastor, and then you know, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.920 not just a religion that we observe once a week 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:17.320 on the weekend, but also this deep principle that some 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:21.160 of life's biggest decisions should be made through the lens 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:26.360 of our religion, and whether that be having a bunch 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.000 of kids. But also homeschooling was something that was a 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.520 part of my dad's upbringing. And you know, my mom 0:08:33.679 --> 0:08:37.000 had gone to Christian High School, Christian College. My dad 0:08:37.160 --> 0:08:41.000 and mom had met at the Christian high school briefly 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.800 they overlapped a little bit there, and so the idea 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.960 that whether it was homeschooling or not, that the education 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.520 should be essentially a Christian education, and what better way 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:53.400 to do that than in the home with the Christian parents. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.240 And my mom had studied secondary education anyway, so she 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.120 definitely had a you know, a skill set there and 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:03.760 a passion there. So that just really felt like a 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:09.280 natural extension of things that my grandparents had decided and 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.720 incorporated and then had been passed down. And we were 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:16.640 the you know, the next generation carrying on these traditions 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:17.920 and these principles. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:23.600 So you're living in Chicago with your five other siblings, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:25.600 all very close in age, and every one of your 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:31.000 names begins with the letter J. There's Jess, Jerregeen, jet Jack, 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.000 and Jedi Is that right? 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.199 Yes? Correct? Jedi fuel name is Jedediah, but we would 0:09:37.200 --> 0:09:38.240 call him Jedi. 0:09:38.920 --> 0:09:40.160 What was with the Jays? 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.439 As far as I understood it. The story was that 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.640 if there had been more boys, it would have been 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.839 the prophets. It would have been you know, Jeremiah, Daniel Ezekiel, 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:51.880 those sorts of things. They were going to kind of 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.920 stick with that theme. But there were three girls in 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.480 the first four kids, and they just kind of agreed 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.160 on a name by name, and when they got down 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.520 to the fifth kid, they went, it's kind of weird 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:07.800 to not have Jay's at this point. So I guess 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:13.720 they just stuck with that momentum after after the fourth kid. 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:17.440 In nineteen ninety nine, Jessica's family's life changes. The tragic 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.240 accident that occurred when she was an infant, in which 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:24.240 her aunts and uncles lost their lives eventually results in 0:10:24.280 --> 0:10:27.840 a wrongful death civil suit and a massive, I mean 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:31.920 one hundred million dollar a massive settlement. As one of 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:35.600 the beneficiaries of the settlement, her father receives a very 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.080 significant sum of money. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.640 I did not know kind of what that number was 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.640 or what that meant in a very real way for 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:51.680 my family, my extended family. You know. I just remember 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.800 being like, oh, Dad's going to do something called retire. 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.480 He's going to retire, and that just means that I'm 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:02.559 going to get to, you know, play blocks with Daddy 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.040 on more than just the evenings and the weekends. You know, 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:06.600 Daddy's not going to have to go to work, which 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:10.040 was just crazy because everybody's daddy worked or maybe their 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.480 mommy as well, you know. And it didn't happen right away, 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:18.280 but eventually my grandfather also would step back from his pastorship. 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:21.000 That took a little while, but you know, the biggest 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.120 measurable difference was, oh, we're going to be able to 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.160 get a bigger house. To my recollection, nobody brought in 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:29.040 the you know, the kids under ten and sat down 0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:31.520 and went, hey, comprehensively, this is what it means for 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:33.960 our family, and this is what the road map is. 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:36.520 You know, this was unforeseen for all of us, so, 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.840 you know, it was this windfall, and I think it 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:43.480 eventually turned into the shape of tragedy followed by blessing. 0:11:44.080 --> 0:11:48.840 I certainly had already learned plenty of Bible stories where 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.720 that kind of dynamic was evident. We didn't know exactly 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:56.520 what was going to follow. I was just happy that 0:11:56.920 --> 0:11:59.360 we're going to get more bedrooms now instead of having 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:01.600 all the kids in in one room. You know, and 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:04.120 I didn't know any different. I didn't dislike that. I 0:12:04.160 --> 0:12:06.680 was always surrounded by siblings and like I said, you know, 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.160 toys in school and all of that. But I just 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:12.880 knew big change was coming. Never dreamed that we would 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.200 be moving so far away and that those changes would 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:20.599 be so far reaching. So my parents looked for homes 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.959 in the greater Chicagoland area for a while. I believe 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:28.800 it was multiple years, and it started getting a little strange. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.600 I remember going to a couple of these places and 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.880 just feeling like they were palaces. I'd never even seen 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.960 a house that big, and just my dad being very 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.160 unhappy with that. So I guess that started giving me 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.800 a little more context on just how much things had changed. 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:47.480 You know, if Dad could kind of not be happy 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.839 with this, you know, what is he looking for? And 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.840 I think the other thing that's important, and I could 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.439 even feel at the time, was that when my grandfather 0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:02.000 did leave, the church was at odds with the kind 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:06.000 of the changing of the guard, and I probably will 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:08.760 never understand all the minutia about that. But another large 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.800 family with a bunch of kids kind of came in 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.680 and the father was going to become the new pastor, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:19.200 and Dad was not getting along with him, and you know, 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.320 the finer points of the theology or the philosophy was 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.640 again a little bit beside the point and above my head. 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.920 But I knew that that was a source of tension. 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.680 And you know, our community other than our family was 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:34.440 this church, and to kind of feel like maybe that 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.800 was not going to continue. So we were looking for 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:39.880 a new home, and you know, maybe we were going 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.439 to have to be looking for a new church as well. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:46.720 So more and more of the bonds were kind of 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:51.000 loosening around us. And I remember being told at one 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.559 point that they had been looking at houses in all 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.960 sorts of different states. Now, my parents saw this amazing 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.160 house and property online in nash which I'd never heard of, 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:05.040 and Dad went on a trip and he called my 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.719 mom and said, like, this is it. We're going to 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:09.320 make an offer. We're not going to look whatever that 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:13.679 adult conversation was is just this immediate kind of overnight 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.560 all right, We're going to go see this new house 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:22.280 in this place called Nashville. 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:25.720 We live life forward, of course, but when it comes 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:29.520 to our earliest memories, especially when those memories are traumatic, 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.680 we're left to put together the pieces as we've become 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:37.200 adults and we're able to understand in retrospect and supply 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.840 language to what it is that we remember. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:45.920 Along with the jumble of earliest memories, is you know, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:51.560 a memory that does not have that much unique about 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:55.680 it other than I remember being in my parents' bed 0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:58.960 and my father was touching me, talking to me. And 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.720 as you do as a child, there are many things 0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.200 that you experience or see or learn about that you 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:08.560 don't have words for or you don't really understand. And 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:12.440 there's a certain amount of trust that, oh, the caretakers 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:15.160 and the adults around me can help me with this, 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.880 or I'm going to eventually learn the vocabulary that describes 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.560 this new food that I've tried, or this new activity 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:27.000 that I've been taught or something. But in this moment 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.440 of this interaction with my dad, the moment that my 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.600 mom kind of came into my view, I was just 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.440 just etched in my memory. The next time I saw 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:40.080 my mother's face, I think it was just maybe minutes 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:41.880 later or whatever, but I had been in their bedroom 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.400 and she was coming out of their bathroom, and her 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.040 skin was clean, and her hair was up in a 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.200 towel and it was just I had this overwhelming sense 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.320 that I should say something to her, that I should 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.640 kind of maybe tell her what happened, but I didn't 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.520 know what to say. I didn't have names for the 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.080 body part involved, They didn't you know, I didn't really 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.200 know how to convey to her what had just happened. 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.160 I also didn't know why I felt compelled to say something, 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.920 So it felt kind of like I was, you know, 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.280 a secret was created in that moment, but not because 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.920 I didn't want to tell. I just didn't know how. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.080 And it speaks to how young I was. Again, that 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.480 was probably around three and a half years old or 0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:25.400 four years old. I only have a handful of memories 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.840 that go back that far. And there's some things about 0:16:27.840 --> 0:16:30.160 this memory that makes me wonder. This might not have 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.960 been the first time that my father, you know, had 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.320 behaved inappropriately towards me. It's just the first one that 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:40.120 I can remember. So, you know, throughout these younger years homeschooling, 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:45.240 you know, nine and under, there were continued touching and 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:49.960 interactions with my dad that never happened with either anyone 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.440 else in the room at all, or maybe as he 0:16:52.480 --> 0:16:55.360 was tucking me into bed at night, he would say 0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:58.760 a little something or do little something, and you know, 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.600 over time and pattern, it was very clear that this 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.520 was something. You know, we didn't ever talk about it 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:07.320 in front of anybody else, No one else was ever involved, 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:11.880 and glaringly obvious my mom was was very much not involved, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:14.680 and so I did wonder as to why that was. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.560 And other than the actions themselves, I think the only 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.280 kind of what I would now understand to be grooming 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.439 that was happening was that my dad would kind of 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:27.480 drop information. He would kind of frame it as if 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.680 he was teaching me something, Oh, you need to do this, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.159 you know, it'll make you feel this way, or it's 0:17:33.200 --> 0:17:35.680 something you need to learn so that one day when 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:38.600 you're the mommy, you know, mommies and daddies do this, 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:43.440 like that sort of narrative, and then working in occasionally 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:47.119 you know, mom doesn't know that he would say things 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.200 that were negative towards my mom, which at some point 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:52.040 I just kind of filled in the blanks like, oh, 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.080 Mom's not involved in this, because this is maybe even 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.200 a reaction to like something that's adult that I don't understand, 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:02.480 and maybe my dad is madam my mom about or 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:05.000 there's something that's not quite right. But he's teaching me 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.840 so that I will know and kind of be special 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:13.040 and be better and I won't have these same struggles. 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:15.640 But you know, not talked about a lot at all, 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.239 even between us, but when he needed to frame it, 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:21.879 that's kind of the frame that he gave it. And 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.959 I would say prior to us moving to Tennessee, prior 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.040 to me turning nine, because I turned mind just after removed. 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:35.280 You know, I did not attach any sort of pain 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:42.160 or overwhelm or panic to any of those interactions with 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.720 my dad. I was very eager to please. I loved him. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.119 I wanted him to be proud of me. He was 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.600 very much in control of the whole system. I had 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:57.439 already ingested that Dad was at the top. Mom was 0:18:57.480 --> 0:19:00.960 there to help and support and submit to, and that 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.960 his frame was a really beautiful, wonderful thing that God 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:06.919 had said this was the best way to raise your family, 0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:09.320 and it was all going to work out. Daddy was 0:19:09.320 --> 0:19:13.879 our protector and our leader, and Mom was the caretaker. 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:17.360 And you know, if there was ever a moment of 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.040 concern or knowing that something was wrong, it actually wasn't 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.359 about what Dad was doing to me. I remember really 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.840 being disturbed one day when I realized that, hey, something 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.760 is off between my mom and my dad, and I 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:32.520 care and love for my dad. I care and love 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:35.640 for my mom, and she was really upset and kind 0:19:35.640 --> 0:19:39.080 of scared for him to come home one random day 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.800 from work. And it was the first time I had 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:47.680 ever noticed her anxiety and unhappiness, and I didn't understand 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.920 the reason for it, but I just kind of realized, Oh, 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.680 mom cares for me, Mom cares for my siblings, Mom 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.800 cares for dad. Who cares for mom? Like I realized 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.359 that when you set up the system in that way, 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:06.800 you know, there's this lack of care and support, and 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.159 you know that I saw that. I glimpsed in my 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.560 mother and I internalized that as much as possible, I 0:20:12.600 --> 0:20:14.960 needed to take care of her. And I was told 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.320 in my role at the best way to fit into 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:24.280 our family system was to obey, to not be disobedient, 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:27.439 to not be you know, too much or hard to handle. 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.880 You know, I wanted to please and make my dad happy. 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.719 Most of those ways weren't this secret, confusing thing, but 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.480 that was included, and with my mom it was, you know, 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.159 I don't know what the issue is here. Something seems 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:41.600 wrong about it, But I'm going to try to do 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:43.639 all that I can to make her smile and make 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:45.960 her happy because she was just so full of light 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.760 and so like, how could you not want her to 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:51.760 be happy and cared for? 0:20:52.520 --> 0:20:56.520 And to add to that the insidiousness of and this 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.800 I guess is part of the grooming process, is that 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:03.520 you dad would compare you to your mom and say, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:05.920 you know, you do that so much better than your mom, 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.679 or your mom doesn't know how to do that, And 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:14.919 so I can imagine the shame, guilt, responsibility, love for 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.119 your mother and this dawning realization that there's something really 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:23.159 difficult going on for her. She's in some kind of 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:30.359 real trouble, you know, and doesn't have anyone protecting her. Yeah, 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:42.480 we'll be right back. When Jessica's family moves into their 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.320 new expansive house in Nashville, it seems their whole world 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:50.840 is expanding too. Her parents have more children pretty soon. 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.679 Jessica is one of twelve kids. The homeschooling continues, but 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.919 it's different now, bigger, more involved. It's no longer just 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.640 Jessica's mom making little lesson plans. Now they have living 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:09.440 teachers for all sorts of subjects, dance, music, horseback riding. Meanwhile, 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:12.760 the house itself is in a constant state of renovation. 0:22:14.680 --> 0:22:17.960 The house was kind of under construction the whole time 0:22:18.000 --> 0:22:20.879 we were there. But really, you got to imagine a 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:23.840 child like in Narnia when they go to the country 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.640 and they're they're exploring this huge house, and around every 0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:29.480 corner is something that feels magical, and you know, it 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.239 is a nine thousand square foot home from a two 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.200 bedroom apartment. You look at it, it's quite a privileged life. 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:40.920 It was a rich life, and I was so young 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.320 that there was a lot I was not appreciating about it. 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.000 But even just the land itself was over one hundred 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.919 and eighty two acres at the time, and you know, 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.600 we came just before spring, so there is this real, 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:58.919 just magical, elemental, overwhelming bounty of a southern spring that 0:22:58.960 --> 0:23:03.320 I've never in my life you've seen. So I loved it. 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:08.400 And our life was now not the same as most 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:10.240 people that we met, and they were all new people, 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:13.200 you know, because we're coming into a new community. We 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.119 were not very cut off. We found another church, you know, 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:20.640 we were pretty integrated with that church. For quite a while. 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:23.120 We would offer our home and our land and church 0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.280 events what happen there, and you know, you try to 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.159 kind of make friends again, mostly through church or some 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.359 other neighbor families because we're way more out in the 0:23:32.400 --> 0:23:35.280 country now, so getting to know your neighbors. You know, 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:39.080 neighbor is a loose term when you're on a piece 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:42.520 of land that's you know, hundreds of acres. But you know, 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:46.720 other homeschooling families we kind of got connected to, and 0:23:47.200 --> 0:23:49.520 you know, I would counter other kids whose lives were 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.040 so different. They went to public school, they may or 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:54.880 may not have been religious, they did not have lived 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:57.040 dance teachers and music teachers and all these kind of 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.560 extracurricular things. Maybe they played soccer or something, and you know, 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:03.520 I'd laid with what's your favorite book? Because I was 0:24:03.640 --> 0:24:06.480 a voracious reader, and they would just go, I don't 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:10.080 really like books. And I would have this reaction that 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:13.680 came from the way my parents talked about the philosophical 0:24:13.760 --> 0:24:15.920 choices they were making, and I just thought, Wow, these kids' 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.520 parents really aren't raising them right, you know. And I'm 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.400 like ten years old thanking this, But the space between 0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:26.399 not really being able to connect with my peers and 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.960 other children. We either had nothing in common or there 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:31.959 was this dynamic of but I wish I was in 0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:34.439 your family. It just looks so fun, And I was like, 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:38.360 I know, it is so fun, but. 0:24:38.359 --> 0:24:42.000 Of course it's not all fun. In fact, it's dangerous. 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.000 Jessica understands that much of her lifestyle is one of privilege, 0:24:46.040 --> 0:24:49.000 and she knows why other kids are envious, but that's 0:24:49.080 --> 0:24:53.119 just how things look from the outside. Inside, the abuse 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:54.959 from Jessica's father continues. 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:59.600 You know, when I'm nine ten, we are still attending church. 0:24:59.680 --> 0:25:03.680 There's this idea of right and wrong and things that 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:06.760 are appropriate, things are inappropriate, and so I have gotten 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:11.200 this understanding that something about that is definitely not right, 0:25:11.960 --> 0:25:14.240 to the point where I'm not just going to casually 0:25:14.280 --> 0:25:16.760 bring it up and just see what happens. I feel 0:25:16.800 --> 0:25:20.440 the need to kind of make sure this doesn't come 0:25:20.520 --> 0:25:23.960 to light. And still I think just kind of giving 0:25:24.000 --> 0:25:26.560 my dad that benefit of the doubt, and that well, 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:30.000 he's the adult, you know, And yes, I know I 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:34.439 have another adult present here in a way, but you know, 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:37.680 I've already kind of been inoculated from going to her 0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:41.479 because she is either wrong in this situation or doesn't 0:25:41.600 --> 0:25:45.160 know about the situation, you know, and it did feel 0:25:45.200 --> 0:25:47.800 like I was going to protect her by not I 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:49.679 kind of need to go to her for help. But 0:25:49.760 --> 0:25:51.720 I feel like, one she can't help me, and two 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.719 that's going to undermine this idea of trying to protect 0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:58.480 her and not give her more. You know, she's now 0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:02.639 has seven kids, eights, and she's always pregnant. There's always something. 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:07.359 She's kind of running this drastically big household, so there's 0:26:07.440 --> 0:26:11.640 never this one on one time, you know, even compared 0:26:12.320 --> 0:26:14.679 to how it used to be. There's so much less 0:26:15.240 --> 0:26:19.080 time with her. So what ended up happening is during 0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:22.199 the renovations that are happening in this house, you know, 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:24.880 there was this time where we all kind of were 0:26:24.920 --> 0:26:29.720 sleeping in the same area. There was this master bedroom 0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:35.200 suite that frankly was as big as our previous whole home. 0:26:35.280 --> 0:26:38.480 I think I was just very over the top. And anyway, 0:26:38.520 --> 0:26:40.359 we're all sleeping in there for a short amount of time. 0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.040 And so that's what helps me understand that this is 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:46.520 quite early in our move to Tennessee, because it is 0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:49.000 kind of one of the first things that happened with 0:26:49.080 --> 0:26:52.520 the house and the construction. But I woke up to 0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.960 my dad lifting me out of bed, and he took 0:26:57.040 --> 0:27:00.840 me around kind of the corner again of suite and 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:03.320 there was a sink area, and he put me up 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:06.520 on the sink and did something he had never done before, 0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:11.360 and it was way more invasive, and it was an 0:27:11.400 --> 0:27:16.520 extremely uncomfortable, unpleasant experience in a way that none of 0:27:16.520 --> 0:27:21.760 the other stuff had been. And to just show how 0:27:22.080 --> 0:27:25.680 how much I would go along with this, Dad would 0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:28.920 tell me that I was supposed to touch myself and 0:27:29.320 --> 0:27:31.520 would ask me if I had, and I would say yes, 0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:33.880 and you know, it was just our routine. And one 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:36.040 time he asked me, you know, have you done this? 0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:37.680 And I said yes, and I told him I'd done 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:39.280 it a lot of times and he just kind of 0:27:39.359 --> 0:27:42.320 laughed at me and called me a liar. And again, 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.439 still just really over my head, not something that I 0:27:45.480 --> 0:27:48.000 was worried about. I was more worried about blying to 0:27:48.160 --> 0:27:52.360 my dad than I was, you know, trying to say, hey, 0:27:52.400 --> 0:27:56.199 this is wrong or this is unsafe. But this moment 0:27:56.440 --> 0:28:00.199 was totally different. I wanted to get out of my 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:03.399 body and it was the first time you kind of 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:06.639 have this, you know, they say out of body experience, 0:28:06.680 --> 0:28:08.480 and I would have loved to be out of my 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:11.439 body because there was kind of no place to hide. 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:18.399 And that is a deeply traumatic moment for me. It 0:28:18.600 --> 0:28:22.600 colored everything that came before, because I very much understood 0:28:22.640 --> 0:28:26.399 that this was connected, you know, to actions that on 0:28:26.480 --> 0:28:29.000 the surface were different, but I understood that they were sexual. 0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:31.480 I understood that they were inappropriate. And now I understood 0:28:31.520 --> 0:28:34.159 that whether he had the plan to come to this 0:28:34.280 --> 0:28:37.080 moment all the way at the beginning or not, these 0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:40.880 were very much connected and I never wanted this particular 0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:43.000 thing to happen again. 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:46.000 Well, and they were escalating. That was an escalation. 0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:50.840 Yes, I understood then and certainly understand now that's a 0:28:50.880 --> 0:28:56.840 major escalation. My mother came to me and just asked, 0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:01.959 straight up, was like, has Dad done anything weird? Has 0:29:02.040 --> 0:29:04.000 he touched has he touched it? And she just kind 0:29:04.000 --> 0:29:07.800 of gestures with her hand, and it really is quite 0:29:07.800 --> 0:29:11.959 a vague question, but I knew what she was talking about. 0:29:12.240 --> 0:29:15.960 And I'm between eights of probably nine and a half 0:29:16.200 --> 0:29:18.040 and ten and a half somewhere in there in the stage, 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:21.600 and just you know, the shame, the coloring of the cheeks, 0:29:21.640 --> 0:29:25.160 the flush of like I'm so uncomfortable. This is embarrassing. 0:29:25.240 --> 0:29:28.640 I feel guilty. I just felt so bad. And why 0:29:28.640 --> 0:29:31.480 haven't I told mom if this is bad? And I 0:29:31.560 --> 0:29:33.640 know it's bad, why haven't I said something to her? 0:29:33.680 --> 0:29:36.280 Why haven't I done this? And really, as this is 0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:39.880 all happening in my head, I'm going back one to 0:29:40.000 --> 0:29:43.200 the moment when I had first had that inclination to 0:29:43.320 --> 0:29:46.920 tell her, Hey, something just happened. But I still feel 0:29:47.360 --> 0:29:52.600 that same like lock on my mouth, like I don't 0:29:52.680 --> 0:29:54.640 I still don't know what to say, Like how do 0:29:54.680 --> 0:29:57.800 I explain this horrible thing that just happened. I definitely 0:29:57.840 --> 0:30:02.760 don't have the vocabulary for that. And I'm also immediately 0:30:02.800 --> 0:30:07.120 feeling relief because I'm nod and she doesn't ask any 0:30:07.120 --> 0:30:11.200 for the questions. She says, Okay, he has Okay, it's 0:30:11.280 --> 0:30:16.080 not your fault. It's all gonna be okay. And I'm 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:19.160 so relieved to hear this, because I certainly don't want 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:22.040 to be talking about the details. I just try to 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:24.640 forget it happens. As soon as something happens, and now 0:30:24.680 --> 0:30:28.720 it'll stop, and thank goodness, the adults. There's still so 0:30:28.800 --> 0:30:30.440 much I don't understand about this. But if it's just 0:30:30.440 --> 0:30:35.400 gonna stop. I'm fine not interrogating the issue and just 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:36.080 moving on. 0:30:36.960 --> 0:30:41.040 But that's not what happens, No, not at all. 0:30:41.040 --> 0:30:43.720 Initially. You know, I hear my mom raise her voice 0:30:43.720 --> 0:30:46.560 to Dad, which really stands out. I have no memory 0:30:46.560 --> 0:30:50.080 of that prior to this moment. I cannot hear what 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:55.680 they're saying, but I interpreted that as, Wow, she's really 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:59.560 kind of confronting him, and I think, I mean, certainly, 0:30:59.600 --> 0:31:04.120 the reason it sticks out is Mom confronting Dad does 0:31:04.160 --> 0:31:07.640 not fit with that pecking order, that hierarchy of how 0:31:07.800 --> 0:31:11.600 the whole family system is supposed to work. And I 0:31:11.720 --> 0:31:14.920 fail to grasp that, of course, this is really going 0:31:14.960 --> 0:31:20.200 to have no effect because my dad still has all 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:23.880 of that kind of god given authority, and you know, 0:31:23.920 --> 0:31:26.160 my mom, she's still going to be there the next morning, 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:29.719 serving him, serving us, being our mother. You know, nothing 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:34.200 changes day to day. There were periods where it would 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:36.920 be a nightly thing, and there'd be periods where it 0:31:36.960 --> 0:31:39.479 didn't happen for a while, and it would start up 0:31:39.480 --> 0:31:42.240 and be slightly different or escalate a little and it 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:45.360 stops dead cold. But you know, time will tell, and 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:50.040 unfortunately things do pick up before long but there's this 0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:54.960 process before that where Dad definitely starts changing his interaction 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:59.720 with me. There's what I would now call much more 0:32:00.120 --> 0:32:06.400 hypical grooming efforts. It's, hey, I have a gift for you. Hey, 0:32:06.920 --> 0:32:09.800 you know I want to get a hug from you. 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:13.000 Oh you're pulling away from me. Don't be cold, you know, 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:16.320 really pouring on that what you need to do to 0:32:16.360 --> 0:32:20.040 be special and get certain privileges. And you know, I 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:24.120 have not suddenly overnight changed to seeing my dad as 0:32:24.160 --> 0:32:28.680 this horrible beast. He is still number one, the person 0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:32.400 in charge, but number two someone that I love and 0:32:32.760 --> 0:32:35.280 have spent my whole life so far trying to live 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.120 up to whatever it is that he would like me 0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:41.520 to be. So he starts, you know, finding ways to 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:45.560 get close with me and isolate me even within our home. 0:32:46.200 --> 0:32:47.880 Why don't you come over to the side of the 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:50.040 house and do this special project with me and no 0:32:50.080 --> 0:32:53.120 one else is around. And I vaguely remember there being 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:58.600 a conversation with my mom that amounted to something like, hey, 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:03.640 all you sisters and girls, don't be alone with dad. 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:06.120 Like it wasn't some Hey, this is what I figured out. 0:33:06.200 --> 0:33:08.719 Let me explain what happened. Let me. It wasn't I 0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:12.240 need more information. It was just kind of, hey, let's 0:33:12.440 --> 0:33:15.160 let's make sure we're being smart. And you know, I 0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:17.520 don't know what all that means at that time, and 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:19.280 so it's just kind of vaguely there. I know some 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:22.320 conversation like that happened, but if it was hey, don't 0:33:22.360 --> 0:33:24.960 be alone with dad, well, what am I actually supposed 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:29.280 to do next time? He gives me a command? And 0:33:29.800 --> 0:33:32.560 that just seemed like there was no teeth behind that rule. 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:34.120 It's like having a law, but there's no way to 0:33:34.200 --> 0:33:39.040 uphold it. And eventually he worked back up to kind 0:33:39.040 --> 0:33:42.200 of touching me again. But I don't tell my mom, 0:33:42.760 --> 0:33:45.160 and it just really does come back down to like, actually, 0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:48.920 that didn't change anything. So like I tell her, and 0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:50.680 it's still not going to change anything. And it's not 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.360 my job. I'm the child, and I think it's so 0:33:53.720 --> 0:33:57.640 hard not to look back and be hard on myself 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:01.800 and or hard on my mom. And there's accountability, of course, 0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:04.560 that needs to be there, but I mean my actions 0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:06.920 kind of speak for themselves, and that I didn't trust 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.680 that it was really going to change anything, so I didn't, 0:34:10.440 --> 0:34:14.319 you know, she kind of asked, Hey, help me protect you, like, 0:34:14.600 --> 0:34:16.840 you know, don't do these things, and I did them anyway, 0:34:16.880 --> 0:34:19.600 but I kind of felt like I didn't really have 0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:20.200 a choice. 0:34:21.120 --> 0:34:23.960 Yeah, I mean that seems clear from the fact that 0:34:24.000 --> 0:34:26.200 you did. You know, you did take that risk, and 0:34:26.239 --> 0:34:29.200 you did say yes, you're a child, and you you 0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:33.279 finally you speak what is unspeakable, and nothing changes. So 0:34:33.320 --> 0:34:36.000 why would you think that anything would or that it 0:34:36.000 --> 0:34:38.399 would be safe or useful to say anything else. 0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:40.880 I was just glad I didn't get in trouble. 0:34:41.600 --> 0:34:45.680 Were you afraid of your father? Because there is this 0:34:45.760 --> 0:34:51.240 threat of violence that's running throughout and beatings and hitting 0:34:51.239 --> 0:34:56.080 your mother and hitting your kids, and these wrestling games 0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:57.439 that aren't really games. 0:34:58.280 --> 0:35:00.960 And kind of like everything else, it starts in one 0:35:01.000 --> 0:35:05.000 location and ends up a million miles in another place. 0:35:05.080 --> 0:35:09.040 And yet I think there's a clear thread, the clear escalation. 0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:11.359 I think we didn't change paths. You know, I can 0:35:11.440 --> 0:35:14.080 look back at the beginning and see that these seeds 0:35:14.080 --> 0:35:17.040 had been growing for a long time and initially, you know, 0:35:17.200 --> 0:35:20.560 just the teaching of how discipline was going to happen 0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:24.760 is that the Bible told parents to spake their children 0:35:24.840 --> 0:35:28.759 to discipline them, to modify their behavior. But Also there 0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:33.640 was this larger teaching that I heard from multiple pulpits 0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:37.080 and teachings and sermons and things, that we're all sinners, 0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:41.600 and we are all bad at heart. Our bodies are 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.960 the flesh tempts us, you know, as children will be 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:48.200 tempted to pinch our brothers. As adults, there's things like 0:35:48.320 --> 0:35:51.280 murder and adultery, you know, right here in the Ten Commandments, 0:35:51.320 --> 0:35:54.640 which we would constantly go over with Mom and a 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:57.759 Sunday school and things. And so this teaching, a lot 0:35:57.800 --> 0:36:01.319 of times it's called total depravity, is like the theological word, 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:04.920 and I certainly heard a lot of theological phrases between 0:36:04.960 --> 0:36:07.600 my dad my grandpa. A lot of kids wouldn't even 0:36:07.680 --> 0:36:09.960 hear things like this unless they were going to seminary 0:36:10.360 --> 0:36:12.240 at some point and they're an adult. But I actually 0:36:12.280 --> 0:36:15.440 did hear these things as kids. And so the teaching 0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:20.040 of you know, children are born naturally bad with the 0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:25.960 sin nature, and that the proper way a parent to 0:36:26.040 --> 0:36:30.080 truly love their child is to instruct them in the 0:36:30.080 --> 0:36:32.960 way that they should go so that they will become 0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:35.680 good adults. And that's thinking is definitely a part of that. 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:39.080 And there's something to be said about where do we 0:36:39.239 --> 0:36:43.200 know that something like that is wrong? Our body tells us. 0:36:43.440 --> 0:36:47.600 You know, my body told me that incident when Dad 0:36:47.640 --> 0:36:49.680 did something new and it was horrible. It was my 0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:52.360 body that was telling me a no, no, no, I 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:54.040 got to get out. I did not have a thought 0:36:54.160 --> 0:36:56.319 or a teaching that told me it was wrong. It 0:36:56.360 --> 0:37:01.160 was a really visceral physical sense. And as far as 0:37:01.840 --> 0:37:05.000 you know, the spanking and stuff, my mom was so 0:37:05.000 --> 0:37:09.840 so viewed it as having a place, a proper place. 0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:14.040 But she much rather talk to us, much rather reason 0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.120 with us, appeal to our better natures, have this right 0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:20.000 a couple of Bible verses, or apologize, you know, as 0:37:20.040 --> 0:37:22.480 opposed to I'm just going to spank you. In fact, 0:37:23.239 --> 0:37:26.840 if that felt necessary, she would usually well Dad is 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:29.560 going to spank you. So she wasn't even really seen 0:37:29.600 --> 0:37:32.719 as a person who could do the worst version of that. 0:37:33.520 --> 0:37:36.239 I stole something when I was really a little still 0:37:36.280 --> 0:37:39.279 in Chicago, and I think I had done that maybe 0:37:39.360 --> 0:37:42.400 a couple times, and it started bothering my parents. I 0:37:42.440 --> 0:37:44.480 was like, okay, wait a second, do we have a 0:37:44.520 --> 0:37:50.520 little kleptomaniac on our hands? And I got whooked. I 0:37:50.560 --> 0:37:54.160 mean it was it was bad had bruises, and I 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:59.520 did not view that as wrong, but my body was 0:37:59.560 --> 0:38:02.959 so terrified, you know. And so this is quite young. 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:09.120 And although I loved being a perfect little girl, you know, 0:38:09.200 --> 0:38:11.680 occasionally I would get in trouble. And it really is 0:38:11.719 --> 0:38:15.480 a great motivator to not be bad. Whatever that standard is, 0:38:15.480 --> 0:38:17.360 whatever your parents, you know, are saying, this is what 0:38:17.400 --> 0:38:18.879 a good girl does, is what a bad girl does. 0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:23.879 The punishment is pretty darn severe. And even when I 0:38:24.000 --> 0:38:26.520 wasn't in trouble, I have all these other younger siblings, 0:38:26.520 --> 0:38:30.320 and some of them were quite troublesome according to my parents. 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.600 And you know, by the time we're living in Tennessee, 0:38:32.600 --> 0:38:34.640 by the time I'm going, wait, there's this thing that 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:36.399 I'm a part of, and I don't feel safe. If 0:38:36.400 --> 0:38:38.560 you ask me, am I afraid of my dad? There 0:38:38.680 --> 0:38:43.800 is a part of me that lives in fear of 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:46.160 not crossing a line to where I'm going to be 0:38:46.280 --> 0:38:49.200 under that paddle and if I scream or move, he's 0:38:49.239 --> 0:38:52.320 going to start over and it's going to be dozens 0:38:52.400 --> 0:38:55.279 and dozens of hits. And I'm going to live for that, 0:38:55.400 --> 0:38:57.360 you know. And that sounds extreme, and I'm not trying 0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:00.279 to just be sensational. But I mean, how many times 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:02.319 is that have to happen for you to straighten up? 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:05.480 As you graduate up, it's no longer just don't pinch 0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:10.640 your brother, It's be sweet, be kind, do not, under 0:39:10.680 --> 0:39:15.479 any circumstances turn into a worldly teenager that talks back 0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:19.040 to their parents. And I'm starting to approach that threshold 0:39:19.680 --> 0:39:23.600 and certainly want to do whatever I can to fit 0:39:23.719 --> 0:39:28.480 into this system and this family and this religion and 0:39:28.520 --> 0:39:31.640 so learning about the fruits of the spirit and everything. 0:39:31.719 --> 0:39:34.400 And I saw my mom work so hard to smile, 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:37.520 to be kind and long suffering and all of these things, 0:39:37.600 --> 0:39:40.960 and see her struggle and crack at times. And now 0:39:41.040 --> 0:39:45.319 I have this frustration of she hasn't been able to 0:39:45.320 --> 0:39:48.560 stop this, she hasn't been able to help me. And 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:52.600 now I'm feeling that if I get angry, I'm wrong. 0:39:53.360 --> 0:39:56.880 How am I supposed to never be angry, never be upset, 0:39:57.080 --> 0:40:01.080 never be petty, never be reactive. And I don't succeed, 0:40:01.160 --> 0:40:04.040 and you know, I start to have this reputation of like, oh, 0:40:04.080 --> 0:40:06.520 you're turning into a teenager, and you know, there is 0:40:06.560 --> 0:40:10.799 this war to kind of try to be a good 0:40:10.880 --> 0:40:14.560 Christian girl while understanding that some very not good things 0:40:14.560 --> 0:40:15.200 were happening. 0:40:18.840 --> 0:40:29.560 We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 0:40:31.800 --> 0:40:34.279 In the midst of all else going on in Jessica's home, 0:40:34.800 --> 0:40:38.880 her parents become very set on their children, all twelve 0:40:38.880 --> 0:40:43.000 of them, becoming musical performers. This begins at home with 0:40:43.120 --> 0:40:48.080 music tutors and continues in church, and then it escalates. 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:52.600 I think that some of my siblings are very naturally gifted, 0:40:52.719 --> 0:40:57.040 naturally talented, and pretty much that always means, though whether 0:40:57.040 --> 0:41:00.960 there's initial interest or ability was also per with For example, 0:41:01.480 --> 0:41:05.960 the second sibling, my brother, he worked very hard, obsessively. 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:08.680 He would sit and you know, play his whistle over 0:41:08.719 --> 0:41:10.959 and over. But he was nine years old and able 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:14.719 to play full speed music that matched the records like this, 0:41:14.800 --> 0:41:18.240 really complex Irish folk music as good as the professionals. 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:20.200 And you know, I mean, I think that's where a 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:22.840 lot of people throw around the word prodigy, and we 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:25.360 don't usually mean that someone sat down and never practiced 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:29.480 and just automatically was amazing. But with work and with 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:33.560 this ability to really have skill at quite a young age. 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:37.200 So there was that happening for me, I wanted to 0:41:37.280 --> 0:41:39.800 keep up. This is my younger brother, slightly younger brother, 0:41:40.200 --> 0:41:42.400 and as he got to do things, I want to 0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:44.040 be a part of that. You know. I think there's 0:41:44.200 --> 0:41:47.880 naturally kind of competition within families as in you know, 0:41:48.000 --> 0:41:50.760 especially when there's a lot of people on the scene. 0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:54.200 Dad really wanted all of us to develop as many 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:56.319 skills as possible, and then that put him in the 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:59.880 position of having these adults come and say, how do 0:41:59.920 --> 0:42:03.000 you get your kids to do this? We're not breaking 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:07.240 any records here, we're not making albums. The art itself 0:42:07.320 --> 0:42:09.680 is not that remarkable. Usually at this time, it's just 0:42:09.680 --> 0:42:12.480 the fact that we're so young and we're with the program. 0:42:12.800 --> 0:42:16.560 And my dad would joke with people, wonderful well meeting 0:42:16.600 --> 0:42:19.560 people that you know, we're in our lives and our 0:42:19.600 --> 0:42:21.680 neighborhoods and our communities, just going how do you do 0:42:21.719 --> 0:42:24.640 this with your kids? And Dad would joke and say, well, 0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:27.279 it's amazing what you can do when you don't feed them, 0:42:27.560 --> 0:42:31.279 you know. And we were not starved little urchins, but 0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:37.240 at times, yes, food and even psychological safety was threatened. 0:42:37.480 --> 0:42:40.720 What child would be if they're not responding to this bankings, 0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:42.600 then they're locked out of the house or they're left 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:44.359 on the side of the road. And again it's not 0:42:44.400 --> 0:42:46.920 an everyday occurrence, but how many times does it have 0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:50.040 to happen for you to get a message of oh, 0:42:50.160 --> 0:42:53.920 I better get this program. And so my dad was 0:42:53.960 --> 0:42:56.640 really leading this charge, and I think it was a 0:42:56.760 --> 0:43:00.000 natural extension that just wanting to attract more and more 0:43:00.160 --> 0:43:04.279 people and show off. He sawt as his philosophy that 0:43:04.520 --> 0:43:08.040 was developing us children. And we were told that from 0:43:08.080 --> 0:43:10.520 the very beginning. It wasn't like, Wow, my kids are 0:43:10.520 --> 0:43:12.600 so great, I'm so proud of them too. It's like, well, 0:43:12.960 --> 0:43:15.000 that's what happens when you have a parent that you 0:43:15.000 --> 0:43:19.120 know has this vision and has this ability. But my 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:22.440 dad was still putting most of his attention into his business. 0:43:23.080 --> 0:43:26.759 Dad had this wrestling league, and this taps way back 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:30.640 into my own dad's upbringing, in his own dreams, and 0:43:31.000 --> 0:43:36.200 this business is a way to reconnect with this sport 0:43:36.280 --> 0:43:39.680 that he loves. Dad has quit all of that into 0:43:39.719 --> 0:43:43.480 this wrestling league. Well, as it gets to this critical point, 0:43:44.320 --> 0:43:46.279 we don't know exactly what's happened to all this money. 0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:49.440 But between this huge house and the land of the 0:43:49.520 --> 0:43:52.360 upkeep and the just bank carolling so many different things 0:43:52.440 --> 0:43:55.120 and the business. It just really seems like it's in 0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:59.719 this critical time. And it wasn't until that was no 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:03.359 law longer there taking up his attention that I feel 0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:07.560 like he then came to look at us as, hey, 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:11.520 I've invested all of this time, and you know what 0:44:11.600 --> 0:44:14.759 you are now going to be my next time's up. 0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:17.799 I need my investment back and you're actually going to 0:44:17.840 --> 0:44:20.040 be my next business venture. 0:44:22.920 --> 0:44:26.680 To make critical matters more critical. Around this time, the 0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:30.720 Fisher family's nine thousand square foot home burns to the ground. 0:44:32.640 --> 0:44:36.200 It was the day after Christmas. We were without power. 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:41.880 We cleared off our driveway, left the house because the 0:44:41.920 --> 0:44:45.160 heat wasn't working, and it was like forty degrees or 0:44:45.200 --> 0:44:49.040 something in the house, and we returned to the whole 0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:52.400 thing just being a blaze on fire. The fire and 0:44:52.480 --> 0:44:55.479 news are already there. They run out of water. They're 0:44:55.480 --> 0:44:57.960 trying to bring in more water, and the house was 0:44:58.040 --> 0:44:59.800 kind of l shaped and so the short end of 0:44:59.840 --> 0:45:03.759 the was completely level except for you know, chimneys and 0:45:03.800 --> 0:45:07.960 a really mangled roof. There's a most shocking thing you 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:11.400 can see. And my dad jumped out to try to 0:45:11.440 --> 0:45:13.879 help the firefighters or just check in what was going on, 0:45:14.160 --> 0:45:16.120 and you know, he had his offices for his whole 0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:21.000 business there, he had tapes for the next season of 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:25.240 the televised competition and all this again lots of details 0:45:25.239 --> 0:45:29.160 I don't necessarily know, but you know, very definitive end 0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:35.280 to that chapter of my story. And it was super 0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:39.000 weird because it felt like such a tragedy and yet 0:45:39.840 --> 0:45:42.719 remembering that, at least for us older kids, there was 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:46.880 this fiery tragedy at the very beginning of our lives 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.640 and people died in it. Our aunts and uncles died, 0:45:49.719 --> 0:45:53.120 and nobody died in this. The house was gone, and 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:55.760 did I love it? Yes, all my toys, all my instruments. 0:45:55.800 --> 0:45:58.839 While everything was inside, I had started writing, so I 0:45:58.920 --> 0:46:01.839 was like my writing, you know. But we were all 0:46:01.880 --> 0:46:05.319 in the car, and we were all safe, and there 0:46:05.400 --> 0:46:10.160 was something like immediately this idea that our extended family testimony. 0:46:10.680 --> 0:46:13.160 There's tragedy every day, But the thing that stood out 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:17.000 in people's minds was when that happens, and you praise 0:46:17.040 --> 0:46:19.520 God or you don't, at least at least you don't 0:46:19.520 --> 0:46:23.440 curse God. You know, you view this in a long 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:27.000 term kind of religious view. So there really was no 0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:30.279 question that that was what we were going to like 0:46:30.320 --> 0:46:33.080 that's all that we knew is that, you know, and 0:46:33.200 --> 0:46:35.439 especially when there was like six of my siblings could 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:36.760 have died and we're all here. 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:41.080 But still it ends up feeling like it's a a 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:45.200 before and after moment, it seems, for sure, and your 0:46:45.239 --> 0:46:51.400 father's behavior seems to escalate, at least in terms of 0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:56.520 his temper and his violent outbursts. After that. 0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:00.000 Yeah, there's this weird in between time the next couple year, 0:47:00.200 --> 0:47:02.759 because dad tried to keep the business going. You know, 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:04.880 are we going to rebuild the house? What's going to happen? 0:47:05.360 --> 0:47:08.200 My dad was really trying to retain control. He was 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.279 not ready to give up I think this vision of 0:47:11.320 --> 0:47:13.600 what he had been building, and so we tried to 0:47:13.680 --> 0:47:16.160 keep up with the same sort of thing, but you know, 0:47:16.239 --> 0:47:20.120 we didn't have the same money. The kids that were 0:47:20.160 --> 0:47:23.520 born in that house view it, you know, so differently. 0:47:23.560 --> 0:47:26.600 But I was like, okay, it actually in some level 0:47:26.640 --> 0:47:28.520 makes sense to me. Here we go, we go back 0:47:28.600 --> 0:47:32.280 to having a place where we all have one bathroom, 0:47:32.320 --> 0:47:35.080 like it just I was like, Okay, this was too 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:38.600 good to be true. It didn't last. The business eventually 0:47:38.640 --> 0:47:43.239 completely failed. The house there was eventual clarity that it's 0:47:43.280 --> 0:47:46.360 never going to be rebuilt a gradual thing. But you know, 0:47:46.440 --> 0:47:48.480 within a couple of years, all of a sudden, we 0:47:48.520 --> 0:47:51.840 looked around and Dad was kind of riding us with 0:47:51.880 --> 0:47:54.919 a bullet. Dad basically took the reins for my mom 0:47:54.960 --> 0:47:57.239 and said, you are not doing a good enough job 0:47:57.239 --> 0:47:59.960 with these kids. You know, none of you are performing 0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:03.399 to my standards. So now I'm your coach. Now, I'm 0:48:03.400 --> 0:48:06.080 your dance teacher now. And the truth is he couldn't 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:08.520 afford to pay anyone else now, but he just was like, 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:12.040 you know what, what's actually most important about this is 0:48:12.120 --> 0:48:14.640 me and my teachings, and I'm going to turn you 0:48:14.960 --> 0:48:19.759 into something that's profitable. And it started with a dance 0:48:19.840 --> 0:48:22.279 exhibition once a year, and then it turned into once 0:48:22.320 --> 0:48:24.640 a month, and then you know, we played our first 0:48:24.640 --> 0:48:27.719 little music gig not long after the house had burned down, 0:48:27.760 --> 0:48:31.640 and that just escalated over time. I would say the 0:48:31.719 --> 0:48:34.600 years of like two thousand and five, even up to 0:48:34.640 --> 0:48:40.440 like twenty twelve was the slow march of developing an act. 0:48:41.120 --> 0:48:43.680 So those years really blur together, and then it gets 0:48:43.719 --> 0:48:45.120 really weird around twenty twelve. 0:48:47.719 --> 0:48:51.960 By twenty twelve, Jessica's father's dreams have gotten bigger. They 0:48:51.960 --> 0:48:55.640 are in fact too big. He has major plans for 0:48:55.680 --> 0:48:59.120 the kids. They will record their music, they will perform 0:48:59.200 --> 0:49:03.120 well paying get they will make a profit, and in 0:49:03.160 --> 0:49:05.920 the meantime he's been advised to set up a financial 0:49:05.920 --> 0:49:09.440 annuity which will not only keep them afloat, but also 0:49:09.640 --> 0:49:12.640 enable them to buy musical equipment and to go on tour. 0:49:13.960 --> 0:49:17.160 So now we're traveling everywhere in a fifteen passenger van 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:19.600 and you just plump up against realizing that most of 0:49:19.719 --> 0:49:23.120 society isn't set up for a family of fourteen. You know, 0:49:23.160 --> 0:49:25.560 you can't get a table at a restaurant. You can't, 0:49:25.560 --> 0:49:28.200 you know, and people stare at you, and so, you 0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:31.080 know what, that's okay. Dad was steering us in a 0:49:31.080 --> 0:49:36.239 direction that was obviously more and more strange and sensational, 0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.160 to the point where we'd go to the grocery store 0:49:38.160 --> 0:49:40.800 and we'd hear, you should have your own TV show. 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.880 And there's families that have been on TV at that point, 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:47.920 and Dad had kind of been on the outskirts of 0:49:47.960 --> 0:49:50.800 TV stuff, and I think that got in his head 0:49:50.840 --> 0:49:52.960 and he, you know, he realized it's one thing to 0:49:53.040 --> 0:49:55.040 have twelve kids in a row, get up and do 0:49:55.080 --> 0:49:58.759 a little dance together, or do a concert together. But 0:49:58.960 --> 0:50:01.239 what everybody's interested and is the fact that we're all 0:50:01.280 --> 0:50:03.520 in a family. How do you get your kids to 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:06.279 do that? You know, it's that same question, But now 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:09.560 we're years down the road. In twenty twelve, we made 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:12.440 our first record, and a big part of what we 0:50:12.480 --> 0:50:15.960 did was compete, and since we got started in Irish 0:50:16.080 --> 0:50:19.719 music in Chicago, it was part of our heritage. We 0:50:19.800 --> 0:50:24.120 had continued going to Ireland and competing, and we basically 0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:27.799 got a title in twenty twelve in one of the 0:50:27.840 --> 0:50:32.640 band competitions that was a World Championship title, and we 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:36.600 put out an album and that now felt there was 0:50:36.640 --> 0:50:39.520 something cool about what we were doing. And you work 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:42.640 so hard and you're pushed so far, and then you 0:50:42.719 --> 0:50:44.719 start to get a little bit of traction. And what 0:50:44.800 --> 0:50:47.960 I loved was getting to see other people, getting to travel, 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:51.360 getting to have these experiences. And I was very willing 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:57.400 to trade my kind of attention and time and skills 0:50:57.600 --> 0:51:01.239 to be able to kind of experience more of that. 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:06.279 And right around that time was kind of also the 0:51:06.480 --> 0:51:10.080 end of the graphic sexual abuse for me. It was 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:14.000 almost like Dad was ready to ask me for something else, 0:51:14.080 --> 0:51:16.120 like there was something else you wanted more from me, 0:51:16.480 --> 0:51:18.640 And I don't know that I could have really kind 0:51:18.640 --> 0:51:21.800 of sustained both of those things that now he wanted 0:51:21.920 --> 0:51:25.760 what I was writing and my voice and my skill. 0:51:26.280 --> 0:51:28.520 He had to push me to become this kind of 0:51:28.960 --> 0:51:38.359 spokes person and developed me into this entity. 0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:42.399 Jessica and her siblings become a successful touring band. She's 0:51:42.440 --> 0:51:46.040 around eighteen or nineteen, and her dad hasn't sexually abused 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:49.560 her for two or three years, but the abuse itself 0:51:49.600 --> 0:51:53.600 hasn't stopped. Her mother is worried it's happening with another child, 0:51:54.160 --> 0:51:57.160 and she brings it up with Jessica again, and her 0:51:57.200 --> 0:52:01.200 mother uses a word Jessica hasn't heard before. The word 0:52:01.640 --> 0:52:06.080 is molested. This is the first time Jessica understands that 0:52:06.120 --> 0:52:08.040 her dad could actually go to jail for the things 0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:08.600 he's done. 0:52:10.120 --> 0:52:13.759 My response was to expend all the energy I could 0:52:13.760 --> 0:52:16.080 to just pretend that never happens, never think about it, 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:19.759 move forward. I worked so hard not to remember it. 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:24.200 But because it wasn't happening specifically with me, he was 0:52:24.239 --> 0:52:27.640 abusing others in the family. But I never asked, Hey, 0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:32.160 this particular sister did this particular thing happen? It was, Oh, 0:52:32.560 --> 0:52:36.880 something else has triggered this. Mom is paranoid all over again. 0:52:37.080 --> 0:52:39.279 We all kind of talk about the problem. And when 0:52:39.280 --> 0:52:41.680 I say we all, you know, initially it's just me 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:43.440 and mom, and then it's me and mom and a 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:47.200 few sisters, and then afterwards it just goes back to, 0:52:47.680 --> 0:52:50.120 you know, we're all a little bit more paranoid, we're 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:52.359 all a little bit more on edge, but we are 0:52:52.440 --> 0:52:56.040 still doing the same thing in ignoring it. And again, 0:52:56.040 --> 0:52:57.760 I want to be really careful that I'm not speaking 0:52:57.760 --> 0:53:00.840 to other people's experiences or mindfrel so at least for me, 0:53:01.520 --> 0:53:04.080 just don't think about it, don't let it happened, just 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:08.480 move forward. And this moment really shakes that for the 0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.959 first time because Mom says a few specific things. She says, hey, 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:15.960 this particular sister said Dad has been doing stuff. And 0:53:16.480 --> 0:53:18.440 just to show you how some of the dialogue was 0:53:18.520 --> 0:53:22.480 talking about it without talking about it, Mom says, you know, 0:53:22.680 --> 0:53:26.239 Dad is doing stuff to the sister, and I say, 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:31.279 like me, and Mom just goes worse. And I remember thinking, 0:53:31.320 --> 0:53:34.479 wait a second, I've never told you what he's done. 0:53:34.480 --> 0:53:36.239 And since the last time I talked to you. You know, 0:53:36.560 --> 0:53:39.800 it's been this whole escalating behavior over years, but how 0:53:40.200 --> 0:53:43.000 can you say worse or better, you know, compare? And 0:53:43.040 --> 0:53:45.640 so I'm in this moment struggling with like, I can't 0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:49.359 believe I'm here again. What's going on? I don't really 0:53:49.400 --> 0:53:53.480 want to know? And my brother comes in and asks 0:53:53.520 --> 0:53:56.279 what's going on? And mom says dad has been molesting 0:53:56.320 --> 0:54:00.879 the girl, And I'm just shocked because I was like, 0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:02.920 if we're using this word now, why do we use 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:05.280 that word before? I know it's kind of this official 0:54:05.360 --> 0:54:09.640 feeling word, and I still have a very limited vocabulary, 0:54:09.680 --> 0:54:12.680 but I knew that that did apply to my situation. 0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:17.600 And speaking of vocabulary, my brother asks, did he rape them? 0:54:17.960 --> 0:54:21.040 And both my mom and I like screamed no. I 0:54:21.160 --> 0:54:24.080 wasn't really clear on what that word even necessarily meant. 0:54:24.400 --> 0:54:26.080 Most of us have some idea in our head of 0:54:26.080 --> 0:54:28.680 what that means, but there's a range of things. So 0:54:29.520 --> 0:54:33.640 it's a really confusing jumble of time, and there's certain 0:54:33.680 --> 0:54:38.279 things that feel very distinct and clear to me that 0:54:38.320 --> 0:54:40.239 have like not faded with the years at all, and 0:54:40.280 --> 0:54:43.239 other trunks that are missing. But what was really new 0:54:43.239 --> 0:54:45.359 about that is that one of my brothers found out, 0:54:46.080 --> 0:54:49.920 but Dad did not confirm anything. Nobody talks specifics. I 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:52.080 did not volunteer specifics. I did not go to any 0:54:52.080 --> 0:54:55.440 of my sisters and ask specifics. And what was so 0:54:55.719 --> 0:55:00.200 crazy was that once again that incident was treated the 0:55:00.239 --> 0:55:01.600 exact same way. 0:55:06.239 --> 0:55:09.680 This is the closed depart one of Jessica's story. There's more, 0:55:10.040 --> 0:55:37.000 much more to come. Here's Jessica singing from River Runaway. 0:55:39.560 --> 0:55:43.640 Family Secret is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Acre is 0:55:43.640 --> 0:55:46.800 the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 0:55:47.360 --> 0:55:49.359 If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.200 please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 0:55:52.239 --> 0:55:55.640 on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 0:55:55.640 --> 0:55:59.799 eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 0:56:00.360 --> 0:56:04.880 me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd like 0:56:04.880 --> 0:56:07.239 to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 0:56:07.600 --> 0:56:10.200 check out my memoir Inheritance. 0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:14.440 Shre Line, Pull Me On to Hell, It come in 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:23.080 Pool with the Window, Sunshine coming down to the same. 0:56:33.120 --> 0:56:37.320 For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:56:37.440 --> 0:56:39.480 or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.