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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. This episode contains

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Speaker 1: descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: M History has written.

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Speaker 3: At the hands of those who win.

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Speaker 1: The battle must be over for the writing to begin.

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Speaker 2: Take a piece of paper, an open thing, the feather

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Speaker 2: and the finger pulls against gray.

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Speaker 4: Oh, my stary blast to me, I will try to

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Speaker 4: build a better life for me. No else will byecause say.

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Speaker 5: I'm a survivor, and you'll be mine to me.

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Speaker 1: That's Jessica Willis Fisher singing her beautiful and moving song

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Speaker 1: My History from her album Brand New Day.

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Speaker 3: I had been told that to be a good daughter,

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Speaker 3: I must obey that to be a good Christian, I

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Speaker 3: must submit that to be safe, I had to stay silent.

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Speaker 3: I had given up my voice to survive. It was

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Speaker 3: time I took it back. Every beautiful and broken part

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Speaker 3: of my story was mine.

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Speaker 1: Jessica's is a story of stunning resilience in the face

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Speaker 1: of duplicity, deceit, gaslighting, and a childhood marked by ongoing

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Speaker 1: incessant abuse. It's also the story of being saved by

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Speaker 1: an indomitable spirit and by a transcendent gift. And just

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Speaker 1: so you know, this finale of our eighth season is

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Speaker 1: going to be a two parter. A thank you to

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Speaker 1: all our amazing and devoted Family Secrets listeners. My story.

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Speaker 1: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, the secrets

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Speaker 1: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others,

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Speaker 1: and the secrets we keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Why childhood our stories start before we even show up

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Speaker 3: on the scene with all of us. And I had

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Speaker 3: a story that you know, at two and a half

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Speaker 3: years old, there was a tragedy in my extended family,

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Speaker 3: and some of my earliest memories were very much framed

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Speaker 3: and influenced by this very recent occurrence. And by the

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Speaker 3: time I have a more solid chronological memory starting three

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Speaker 3: and a half four years old, it was already so

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Speaker 3: shaped by these really kind of hard and traumatic events

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Speaker 3: that all the adults around me were dealing with. And

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Speaker 3: the way that showed up for me was I knew

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Speaker 3: that even as my life was getting started, death could

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Speaker 3: be kind of even just a second away. Being a

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Speaker 3: super young child and knowing that other young children were

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Speaker 3: suddenly gone overnight, I think that really shapes you in

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Speaker 3: a nutshell. I had some aunts and uncles that had

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Speaker 3: passed away in a car accident, and I remember that

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Speaker 3: being one of the earliest things that I learned about.

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Speaker 3: I think I had a really kind of loving and innocent,

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Speaker 3: you know, early life and early years. I was homeschooled.

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Speaker 3: I was constantly around my mother, who was bright and attentive,

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Speaker 3: loved to teach, loved babies, loved children, and by the

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Speaker 3: time I was four years old, there were four kids

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Speaker 3: in my family. So we learned at home with mom

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Speaker 3: while dad went to work nine to five for a

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Speaker 3: company in Chicago. And we would play blocks, and we

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Speaker 3: would do our flash cards, and we would learn our

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Speaker 3: numbers and our shape, you know, as many children do,

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Speaker 3: whether it's in the home, whether it's maybe preschool. But

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Speaker 3: we would go to church on Sundays where my grandpa

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Speaker 3: was the pastor, and I'd seen my little friends there

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Speaker 3: at church, and occasionally my cousins who lived out of

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Speaker 3: state but not too far would come in and there

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Speaker 3: was like a really predictable, kind of wholesome rhythm to

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Speaker 3: my life. Again, with the asterisk, you know, hanging over

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Speaker 3: everything is that life isn't necessarily guaranteed, because tragedy can

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Speaker 3: strike at any moment. Through my young eyes. I thought

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Speaker 3: my mom was just so full of light and so beautiful.

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Speaker 3: She had these freckles on her nose and her eyes.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a cliche, but they really did seem

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Speaker 3: to sparkle. She had a beautiful smile. She just really

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Speaker 3: seemed to love what she was doing when she interacted

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Speaker 3: with us, whether that be teaching us, whether that be

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Speaker 3: making food and you know, letting us participate. And I

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Speaker 3: felt really close to her. Initially, the first nine years

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Speaker 3: of my life didn't have any huge changes. It was just,

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Speaker 3: you know, school got a little bit more complex and

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Speaker 3: challenging and fun. We learned to play, you know, songs

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Speaker 3: on the piano. We would observe kind of the rhythm

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Speaker 3: of as each year went by, things like Easter. You know,

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Speaker 3: you're just kind of storing up these memories of the

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Speaker 3: holidays and the special times and the rhythm with my

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Speaker 3: dad going to work. You know, our time with him

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Speaker 3: was in the evenings and the weekends. Basically every year

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Speaker 3: to aft there was there was a new kid. And

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Speaker 3: how do we even know what normal is or if

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Speaker 3: normal is even a real thing. You know, whatever we

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Speaker 3: experience day to day that that's all that we know,

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Speaker 3: especially when we're so young. And the one thing that

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Speaker 3: did seem maybe a little outside the norm is I

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Speaker 3: knew that not all families had six kids that close together.

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Speaker 3: But I would say, because of our religion and our

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Speaker 3: extended family, there were enough families that had lots of

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Speaker 3: kids that didn't even feel so strange just because of

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Speaker 3: the environment that I was in.

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Speaker 1: And was homeschooling part of your parents' religious belief system.

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Speaker 3: Well, the way that I would have understood that is that,

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Speaker 3: particularly on my dad's side of the family, I said,

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Speaker 3: my grandfather was a pastor, and I very much interpreted

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Speaker 3: and understood that there were a number of things that

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Speaker 3: were passed down that Dad was bringing from his family

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Speaker 3: and his upbringing, and we're going to be really important

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Speaker 3: and foundational in the family that we were building. I

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Speaker 3: would say those things would be our religion, Protestant Evangelical Christianity.

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Speaker 3: My grandpa was a Baptist pastor, and then you know,

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Speaker 3: not just a religion that we observe once a week

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Speaker 3: on the weekend, but also this deep principle that some

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Speaker 3: of life's biggest decisions should be made through the lens

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Speaker 3: of our religion, and whether that be having a bunch

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Speaker 3: of kids. But also homeschooling was something that was a

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Speaker 3: part of my dad's upbringing. And you know, my mom

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Speaker 3: had gone to Christian High School, Christian College. My dad

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Speaker 3: and mom had met at the Christian high school briefly

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Speaker 3: they overlapped a little bit there, and so the idea

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Speaker 3: that whether it was homeschooling or not, that the education

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Speaker 3: should be essentially a Christian education, and what better way

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Speaker 3: to do that than in the home with the Christian parents.

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Speaker 3: And my mom had studied secondary education anyway, so she

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Speaker 3: definitely had a you know, a skill set there and

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Speaker 3: a passion there. So that just really felt like a

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Speaker 3: natural extension of things that my grandparents had decided and

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Speaker 3: incorporated and then had been passed down. And we were

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Speaker 3: the you know, the next generation carrying on these traditions

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Speaker 3: and these principles.

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Speaker 1: So you're living in Chicago with your five other siblings,

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Speaker 1: all very close in age, and every one of your

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Speaker 1: names begins with the letter J. There's Jess, Jerregeen, jet Jack,

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Speaker 1: and Jedi Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Correct? Jedi fuel name is Jedediah, but we would

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Speaker 3: call him Jedi.

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Speaker 1: What was with the Jays?

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Speaker 3: As far as I understood it. The story was that

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Speaker 3: if there had been more boys, it would have been

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Speaker 3: the prophets. It would have been you know, Jeremiah, Daniel Ezekiel,

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Speaker 3: those sorts of things. They were going to kind of

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Speaker 3: stick with that theme. But there were three girls in

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Speaker 3: the first four kids, and they just kind of agreed

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Speaker 3: on a name by name, and when they got down

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Speaker 3: to the fifth kid, they went, it's kind of weird

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Speaker 3: to not have Jay's at this point. So I guess

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Speaker 3: they just stuck with that momentum after after the fourth kid.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety nine, Jessica's family's life changes. The tragic

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Speaker 1: accident that occurred when she was an infant, in which

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Speaker 1: her aunts and uncles lost their lives eventually results in

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Speaker 1: a wrongful death civil suit and a massive, I mean

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Speaker 1: one hundred million dollar a massive settlement. As one of

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Speaker 1: the beneficiaries of the settlement, her father receives a very

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Speaker 1: significant sum of money.

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Speaker 3: I did not know kind of what that number was

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Speaker 3: or what that meant in a very real way for

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Speaker 3: my family, my extended family. You know. I just remember

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Speaker 3: being like, oh, Dad's going to do something called retire.

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Speaker 3: He's going to retire, and that just means that I'm

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Speaker 3: going to get to, you know, play blocks with Daddy

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Speaker 3: on more than just the evenings and the weekends. You know,

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Speaker 3: Daddy's not going to have to go to work, which

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Speaker 3: was just crazy because everybody's daddy worked or maybe their

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Speaker 3: mommy as well, you know. And it didn't happen right away,

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Speaker 3: but eventually my grandfather also would step back from his pastorship.

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Speaker 3: That took a little while, but you know, the biggest

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Speaker 3: measurable difference was, oh, we're going to be able to

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Speaker 3: get a bigger house. To my recollection, nobody brought in

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Speaker 3: the you know, the kids under ten and sat down

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Speaker 3: and went, hey, comprehensively, this is what it means for

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Speaker 3: our family, and this is what the road map is.

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Speaker 3: You know, this was unforeseen for all of us, so,

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Speaker 3: you know, it was this windfall, and I think it

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Speaker 3: eventually turned into the shape of tragedy followed by blessing.

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Speaker 3: I certainly had already learned plenty of Bible stories where

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Speaker 3: that kind of dynamic was evident. We didn't know exactly

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Speaker 3: what was going to follow. I was just happy that

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Speaker 3: we're going to get more bedrooms now instead of having

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Speaker 3: all the kids in in one room. You know, and

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Speaker 3: I didn't know any different. I didn't dislike that. I

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Speaker 3: was always surrounded by siblings and like I said, you know,

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Speaker 3: toys in school and all of that. But I just

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Speaker 3: knew big change was coming. Never dreamed that we would

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Speaker 3: be moving so far away and that those changes would

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Speaker 3: be so far reaching. So my parents looked for homes

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Speaker 3: in the greater Chicagoland area for a while. I believe

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Speaker 3: it was multiple years, and it started getting a little strange.

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Speaker 3: I remember going to a couple of these places and

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Speaker 3: just feeling like they were palaces. I'd never even seen

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Speaker 3: a house that big, and just my dad being very

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Speaker 3: unhappy with that. So I guess that started giving me

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Speaker 3: a little more context on just how much things had changed.

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Speaker 3: You know, if Dad could kind of not be happy

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Speaker 3: with this, you know, what is he looking for? And

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Speaker 3: I think the other thing that's important, and I could

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Speaker 3: even feel at the time, was that when my grandfather

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Speaker 3: did leave, the church was at odds with the kind

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Speaker 3: of the changing of the guard, and I probably will

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Speaker 3: never understand all the minutia about that. But another large

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Speaker 3: family with a bunch of kids kind of came in

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Speaker 3: and the father was going to become the new pastor,

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Speaker 3: and Dad was not getting along with him, and you know,

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Speaker 3: the finer points of the theology or the philosophy was

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Speaker 3: again a little bit beside the point and above my head.

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Speaker 3: But I knew that that was a source of tension.

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Speaker 3: And you know, our community other than our family was

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Speaker 3: this church, and to kind of feel like maybe that

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Speaker 3: was not going to continue. So we were looking for

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Speaker 3: a new home, and you know, maybe we were going

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Speaker 3: to have to be looking for a new church as well.

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Speaker 3: So more and more of the bonds were kind of

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Speaker 3: loosening around us. And I remember being told at one

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Speaker 3: point that they had been looking at houses in all

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Speaker 3: sorts of different states. Now, my parents saw this amazing

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Speaker 3: house and property online in nash which I'd never heard of,

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Speaker 3: and Dad went on a trip and he called my

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Speaker 3: mom and said, like, this is it. We're going to

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Speaker 3: make an offer. We're not going to look whatever that

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Speaker 3: adult conversation was is just this immediate kind of overnight

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Speaker 3: all right, We're going to go see this new house

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Speaker 3: in this place called Nashville.

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Speaker 1: We live life forward, of course, but when it comes

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Speaker 1: to our earliest memories, especially when those memories are traumatic,

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Speaker 1: we're left to put together the pieces as we've become

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Speaker 1: adults and we're able to understand in retrospect and supply

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Speaker 1: language to what it is that we remember.

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Speaker 3: Along with the jumble of earliest memories, is you know,

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Speaker 3: a memory that does not have that much unique about

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Speaker 3: it other than I remember being in my parents' bed

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Speaker 3: and my father was touching me, talking to me. And

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Speaker 3: as you do as a child, there are many things

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Speaker 3: that you experience or see or learn about that you

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Speaker 3: don't have words for or you don't really understand. And

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Speaker 3: there's a certain amount of trust that, oh, the caretakers

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Speaker 3: and the adults around me can help me with this,

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Speaker 3: or I'm going to eventually learn the vocabulary that describes

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Speaker 3: this new food that I've tried, or this new activity

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Speaker 3: that I've been taught or something. But in this moment

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Speaker 3: of this interaction with my dad, the moment that my

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Speaker 3: mom kind of came into my view, I was just

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Speaker 3: just etched in my memory. The next time I saw

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Speaker 3: my mother's face, I think it was just maybe minutes

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Speaker 3: later or whatever, but I had been in their bedroom

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Speaker 3: and she was coming out of their bathroom, and her

237
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,040
Speaker 3: skin was clean, and her hair was up in a

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Speaker 3: towel and it was just I had this overwhelming sense

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Speaker 3: that I should say something to her, that I should

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Speaker 3: kind of maybe tell her what happened, but I didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to say. I didn't have names for the

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00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 3: body part involved, They didn't you know, I didn't really

243
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Speaker 3: know how to convey to her what had just happened.

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Speaker 3: I also didn't know why I felt compelled to say something,

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Speaker 3: So it felt kind of like I was, you know,

246
00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 3: a secret was created in that moment, but not because

247
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to tell. I just didn't know how.

248
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Speaker 3: And it speaks to how young I was. Again, that

249
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Speaker 3: was probably around three and a half years old or

250
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Speaker 3: four years old. I only have a handful of memories

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Speaker 3: that go back that far. And there's some things about

252
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 3: this memory that makes me wonder. This might not have

253
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Speaker 3: been the first time that my father, you know, had

254
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,320
Speaker 3: behaved inappropriately towards me. It's just the first one that

255
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:40,120
Speaker 3: I can remember. So, you know, throughout these younger years homeschooling,

256
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 3: you know, nine and under, there were continued touching and

257
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:49,960
Speaker 3: interactions with my dad that never happened with either anyone

258
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 3: else in the room at all, or maybe as he

259
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,360
Speaker 3: was tucking me into bed at night, he would say

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Speaker 3: a little something or do little something, and you know,

261
00:16:58,840 --> 00:17:01,600
Speaker 3: over time and pattern, it was very clear that this

262
00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 3: was something. You know, we didn't ever talk about it

263
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Speaker 3: in front of anybody else, No one else was ever involved,

264
00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:11,880
Speaker 3: and glaringly obvious my mom was was very much not involved,

265
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Speaker 3: and so I did wonder as to why that was.

266
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Speaker 3: And other than the actions themselves, I think the only

267
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Speaker 3: kind of what I would now understand to be grooming

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00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,439
Speaker 3: that was happening was that my dad would kind of

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Speaker 3: drop information. He would kind of frame it as if

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Speaker 3: he was teaching me something, Oh, you need to do this,

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Speaker 3: you know, it'll make you feel this way, or it's

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00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,680
Speaker 3: something you need to learn so that one day when

273
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Speaker 3: you're the mommy, you know, mommies and daddies do this,

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Speaker 3: like that sort of narrative, and then working in occasionally

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Speaker 3: you know, mom doesn't know that he would say things

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Speaker 3: that were negative towards my mom, which at some point

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Speaker 3: I just kind of filled in the blanks like, oh,

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Speaker 3: Mom's not involved in this, because this is maybe even

279
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Speaker 3: a reaction to like something that's adult that I don't understand,

280
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Speaker 3: and maybe my dad is madam my mom about or

281
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 3: there's something that's not quite right. But he's teaching me

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Speaker 3: so that I will know and kind of be special

283
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Speaker 3: and be better and I won't have these same struggles.

284
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Speaker 3: But you know, not talked about a lot at all,

285
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Speaker 3: even between us, but when he needed to frame it,

286
00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,879
Speaker 3: that's kind of the frame that he gave it. And

287
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:25,959
Speaker 3: I would say prior to us moving to Tennessee, prior

288
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,040
Speaker 3: to me turning nine, because I turned mind just after removed.

289
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,280
Speaker 3: You know, I did not attach any sort of pain

290
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 3: or overwhelm or panic to any of those interactions with

291
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Speaker 3: my dad. I was very eager to please. I loved him.

292
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Speaker 3: I wanted him to be proud of me. He was

293
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 3: very much in control of the whole system. I had

294
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Speaker 3: already ingested that Dad was at the top. Mom was

295
00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,960
Speaker 3: there to help and support and submit to, and that

296
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:03,960
Speaker 3: his frame was a really beautiful, wonderful thing that God

297
00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:06,919
Speaker 3: had said this was the best way to raise your family,

298
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Speaker 3: and it was all going to work out. Daddy was

299
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 3: our protector and our leader, and Mom was the caretaker.

300
00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,360
Speaker 3: And you know, if there was ever a moment of

301
00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 3: concern or knowing that something was wrong, it actually wasn't

302
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 3: about what Dad was doing to me. I remember really

303
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 3: being disturbed one day when I realized that, hey, something

304
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,760
Speaker 3: is off between my mom and my dad, and I

305
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 3: care and love for my dad. I care and love

306
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,640
Speaker 3: for my mom, and she was really upset and kind

307
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 3: of scared for him to come home one random day

308
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Speaker 3: from work. And it was the first time I had

309
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:47,680
Speaker 3: ever noticed her anxiety and unhappiness, and I didn't understand

310
00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,920
Speaker 3: the reason for it, but I just kind of realized, Oh,

311
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Speaker 3: mom cares for me, Mom cares for my siblings, Mom

312
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,800
Speaker 3: cares for dad. Who cares for mom? Like I realized

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Speaker 3: that when you set up the system in that way,

314
00:20:03,119 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: you know, there's this lack of care and support, and

315
00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 3: you know that I saw that. I glimpsed in my

316
00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,560
Speaker 3: mother and I internalized that as much as possible, I

317
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 3: needed to take care of her. And I was told

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Speaker 3: in my role at the best way to fit into

319
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:24,280
Speaker 3: our family system was to obey, to not be disobedient,

320
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,439
Speaker 3: to not be you know, too much or hard to handle.

321
00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 3: You know, I wanted to please and make my dad happy.

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Speaker 3: Most of those ways weren't this secret, confusing thing, but

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00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,480
Speaker 3: that was included, and with my mom it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what the issue is here. Something seems

325
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,600
Speaker 3: wrong about it, But I'm going to try to do

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00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 3: all that I can to make her smile and make

327
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 3: her happy because she was just so full of light

328
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 3: and so like, how could you not want her to

329
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Speaker 3: be happy and cared for?

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Speaker 1: And to add to that the insidiousness of and this

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Speaker 1: I guess is part of the grooming process, is that

332
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,520
Speaker 1: you dad would compare you to your mom and say,

333
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:05,920
Speaker 1: you know, you do that so much better than your mom,

334
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 1: or your mom doesn't know how to do that, And

335
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 1: so I can imagine the shame, guilt, responsibility, love for

336
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 1: your mother and this dawning realization that there's something really

337
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: difficult going on for her. She's in some kind of

338
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 1: real trouble, you know, and doesn't have anyone protecting her. Yeah,

339
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 1: we'll be right back. When Jessica's family moves into their

340
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,320
Speaker 1: new expansive house in Nashville, it seems their whole world

341
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: is expanding too. Her parents have more children pretty soon.

342
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: Jessica is one of twelve kids. The homeschooling continues, but

343
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,919
Speaker 1: it's different now, bigger, more involved. It's no longer just

344
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,640
Speaker 1: Jessica's mom making little lesson plans. Now they have living

345
00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: teachers for all sorts of subjects, dance, music, horseback riding. Meanwhile,

346
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 1: the house itself is in a constant state of renovation.

347
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: The house was kind of under construction the whole time

348
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,879
Speaker 3: we were there. But really, you got to imagine a

349
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 3: child like in Narnia when they go to the country

350
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,640
Speaker 3: and they're they're exploring this huge house, and around every

351
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,480
Speaker 3: corner is something that feels magical, and you know, it

352
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,239
Speaker 3: is a nine thousand square foot home from a two

353
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: bedroom apartment. You look at it, it's quite a privileged life.

354
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,920
Speaker 3: It was a rich life, and I was so young

355
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: that there was a lot I was not appreciating about it.

356
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 3: But even just the land itself was over one hundred

357
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,919
Speaker 3: and eighty two acres at the time, and you know,

358
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 3: we came just before spring, so there is this real,

359
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 3: just magical, elemental, overwhelming bounty of a southern spring that

360
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: I've never in my life you've seen. So I loved it.

361
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 3: And our life was now not the same as most

362
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 3: people that we met, and they were all new people,

363
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 3: you know, because we're coming into a new community. We

364
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 3: were not very cut off. We found another church, you know,

365
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 3: we were pretty integrated with that church. For quite a while.

366
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 3: We would offer our home and our land and church

367
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 3: events what happen there, and you know, you try to

368
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: kind of make friends again, mostly through church or some

369
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 3: other neighbor families because we're way more out in the

370
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 3: country now, so getting to know your neighbors. You know,

371
00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: neighbor is a loose term when you're on a piece

372
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 3: of land that's you know, hundreds of acres. But you know,

373
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: other homeschooling families we kind of got connected to, and

374
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 3: you know, I would counter other kids whose lives were

375
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 3: so different. They went to public school, they may or

376
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 3: may not have been religious, they did not have lived

377
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: dance teachers and music teachers and all these kind of

378
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 3: extracurricular things. Maybe they played soccer or something, and you know,

379
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,520
Speaker 3: I'd laid with what's your favorite book? Because I was

380
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 3: a voracious reader, and they would just go, I don't

381
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 3: really like books. And I would have this reaction that

382
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,680
Speaker 3: came from the way my parents talked about the philosophical

383
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: choices they were making, and I just thought, Wow, these kids'

384
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: parents really aren't raising them right, you know. And I'm

385
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 3: like ten years old thanking this, But the space between

386
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,399
Speaker 3: not really being able to connect with my peers and

387
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: other children. We either had nothing in common or there

388
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:31,959
Speaker 3: was this dynamic of but I wish I was in

389
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 3: your family. It just looks so fun, And I was like,

390
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 3: I know, it is so fun, but.

391
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 1: Of course it's not all fun. In fact, it's dangerous.

392
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 1: Jessica understands that much of her lifestyle is one of privilege,

393
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: and she knows why other kids are envious, but that's

394
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: just how things look from the outside. Inside, the abuse

395
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:54,959
Speaker 1: from Jessica's father continues.

396
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,600
Speaker 3: You know, when I'm nine ten, we are still attending church.

397
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 3: There's this idea of right and wrong and things that

398
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: are appropriate, things are inappropriate, and so I have gotten

399
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 3: this understanding that something about that is definitely not right,

400
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 3: to the point where I'm not just going to casually

401
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 3: bring it up and just see what happens. I feel

402
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 3: the need to kind of make sure this doesn't come

403
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: to light. And still I think just kind of giving

404
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 3: my dad that benefit of the doubt, and that well,

405
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: he's the adult, you know, And yes, I know I

406
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 3: have another adult present here in a way, but you know,

407
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 3: I've already kind of been inoculated from going to her

408
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 3: because she is either wrong in this situation or doesn't

409
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 3: know about the situation, you know, and it did feel

410
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 3: like I was going to protect her by not I

411
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,679
Speaker 3: kind of need to go to her for help. But

412
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: I feel like, one she can't help me, and two

413
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,719
Speaker 3: that's going to undermine this idea of trying to protect

414
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 3: her and not give her more. You know, she's now

415
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 3: has seven kids, eights, and she's always pregnant. There's always something.

416
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,359
Speaker 3: She's kind of running this drastically big household, so there's

417
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 3: never this one on one time, you know, even compared

418
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 3: to how it used to be. There's so much less

419
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: time with her. So what ended up happening is during

420
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,199
Speaker 3: the renovations that are happening in this house, you know,

421
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 3: there was this time where we all kind of were

422
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 3: sleeping in the same area. There was this master bedroom

423
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 3: suite that frankly was as big as our previous whole home.

424
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 3: I think I was just very over the top. And anyway,

425
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 3: we're all sleeping in there for a short amount of time.

426
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 3: And so that's what helps me understand that this is

427
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 3: quite early in our move to Tennessee, because it is

428
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 3: kind of one of the first things that happened with

429
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 3: the house and the construction. But I woke up to

430
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 3: my dad lifting me out of bed, and he took

431
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: me around kind of the corner again of suite and

432
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: there was a sink area, and he put me up

433
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: on the sink and did something he had never done before,

434
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 3: and it was way more invasive, and it was an

435
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 3: extremely uncomfortable, unpleasant experience in a way that none of

436
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: the other stuff had been. And to just show how

437
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 3: how much I would go along with this, Dad would

438
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 3: tell me that I was supposed to touch myself and

439
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 3: would ask me if I had, and I would say yes,

440
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,880
Speaker 3: and you know, it was just our routine. And one

441
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 3: time he asked me, you know, have you done this?

442
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 3: And I said yes, and I told him I'd done

443
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 3: it a lot of times and he just kind of

444
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 3: laughed at me and called me a liar. And again,

445
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 3: still just really over my head, not something that I

446
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 3: was worried about. I was more worried about blying to

447
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 3: my dad than I was, you know, trying to say, hey,

448
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 3: this is wrong or this is unsafe. But this moment

449
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,199
Speaker 3: was totally different. I wanted to get out of my

450
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 3: body and it was the first time you kind of

451
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 3: have this, you know, they say out of body experience,

452
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,480
Speaker 3: and I would have loved to be out of my

453
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,439
Speaker 3: body because there was kind of no place to hide.

454
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 3: And that is a deeply traumatic moment for me. It

455
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 3: colored everything that came before, because I very much understood

456
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: that this was connected, you know, to actions that on

457
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: the surface were different, but I understood that they were sexual.

458
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 3: I understood that they were inappropriate. And now I understood

459
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 3: that whether he had the plan to come to this

460
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 3: moment all the way at the beginning or not, these

461
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 3: were very much connected and I never wanted this particular

462
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: thing to happen again.

463
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 1: Well, and they were escalating. That was an escalation.

464
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I understood then and certainly understand now that's a

465
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 3: major escalation. My mother came to me and just asked,

466
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,959
Speaker 3: straight up, was like, has Dad done anything weird? Has

467
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 3: he touched has he touched it? And she just kind

468
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: of gestures with her hand, and it really is quite

469
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,959
Speaker 3: a vague question, but I knew what she was talking about.

470
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 3: And I'm between eights of probably nine and a half

471
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 3: and ten and a half somewhere in there in the stage,

472
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: and just you know, the shame, the coloring of the cheeks,

473
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: the flush of like I'm so uncomfortable. This is embarrassing.

474
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: I feel guilty. I just felt so bad. And why

475
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 3: haven't I told mom if this is bad? And I

476
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: know it's bad, why haven't I said something to her?

477
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 3: Why haven't I done this? And really, as this is

478
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: all happening in my head, I'm going back one to

479
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 3: the moment when I had first had that inclination to

480
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: tell her, Hey, something just happened. But I still feel

481
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 3: that same like lock on my mouth, like I don't

482
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: I still don't know what to say, Like how do

483
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 3: I explain this horrible thing that just happened. I definitely

484
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 3: don't have the vocabulary for that. And I'm also immediately

485
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: feeling relief because I'm nod and she doesn't ask any

486
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 3: for the questions. She says, Okay, he has Okay, it's

487
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 3: not your fault. It's all gonna be okay. And I'm

488
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: so relieved to hear this, because I certainly don't want

489
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: to be talking about the details. I just try to

490
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: forget it happens. As soon as something happens, and now

491
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 3: it'll stop, and thank goodness, the adults. There's still so

492
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 3: much I don't understand about this. But if it's just

493
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: gonna stop. I'm fine not interrogating the issue and just

494
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 3: moving on.

495
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: But that's not what happens, No, not at all.

496
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 3: Initially. You know, I hear my mom raise her voice

497
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 3: to Dad, which really stands out. I have no memory

498
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 3: of that prior to this moment. I cannot hear what

499
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 3: they're saying, but I interpreted that as, Wow, she's really

500
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 3: kind of confronting him, and I think, I mean, certainly,

501
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: the reason it sticks out is Mom confronting Dad does

502
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 3: not fit with that pecking order, that hierarchy of how

503
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 3: the whole family system is supposed to work. And I

504
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 3: fail to grasp that, of course, this is really going

505
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 3: to have no effect because my dad still has all

506
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: of that kind of god given authority, and you know,

507
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 3: my mom, she's still going to be there the next morning,

508
00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,719
Speaker 3: serving him, serving us, being our mother. You know, nothing

509
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 3: changes day to day. There were periods where it would

510
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 3: be a nightly thing, and there'd be periods where it

511
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 3: didn't happen for a while, and it would start up

512
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: and be slightly different or escalate a little and it

513
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 3: stops dead cold. But you know, time will tell, and

514
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 3: unfortunately things do pick up before long but there's this

515
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 3: process before that where Dad definitely starts changing his interaction

516
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: with me. There's what I would now call much more

517
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: hypical grooming efforts. It's, hey, I have a gift for you. Hey,

518
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 3: you know I want to get a hug from you.

519
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 3: Oh you're pulling away from me. Don't be cold, you know,

520
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: really pouring on that what you need to do to

521
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 3: be special and get certain privileges. And you know, I

522
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: have not suddenly overnight changed to seeing my dad as

523
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: this horrible beast. He is still number one, the person

524
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 3: in charge, but number two someone that I love and

525
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 3: have spent my whole life so far trying to live

526
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,120
Speaker 3: up to whatever it is that he would like me

527
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: to be. So he starts, you know, finding ways to

528
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: get close with me and isolate me even within our home.

529
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 3: Why don't you come over to the side of the

530
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 3: house and do this special project with me and no

531
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: one else is around. And I vaguely remember there being

532
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: a conversation with my mom that amounted to something like, hey,

533
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 3: all you sisters and girls, don't be alone with dad.

534
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: Like it wasn't some Hey, this is what I figured out.

535
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 3: Let me explain what happened. Let me. It wasn't I

536
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 3: need more information. It was just kind of, hey, let's

537
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 3: let's make sure we're being smart. And you know, I

538
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: don't know what all that means at that time, and

539
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 3: so it's just kind of vaguely there. I know some

540
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: conversation like that happened, but if it was hey, don't

541
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: be alone with dad, well, what am I actually supposed

542
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 3: to do next time? He gives me a command? And

543
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 3: that just seemed like there was no teeth behind that rule.

544
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: It's like having a law, but there's no way to

545
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 3: uphold it. And eventually he worked back up to kind

546
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 3: of touching me again. But I don't tell my mom,

547
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 3: and it just really does come back down to like, actually,

548
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: that didn't change anything. So like I tell her, and

549
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 3: it's still not going to change anything. And it's not

550
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: my job. I'm the child, and I think it's so

551
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: hard not to look back and be hard on myself

552
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 3: and or hard on my mom. And there's accountability, of course,

553
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,560
Speaker 3: that needs to be there, but I mean my actions

554
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: kind of speak for themselves, and that I didn't trust

555
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 3: that it was really going to change anything, so I didn't,

556
00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 3: you know, she kind of asked, Hey, help me protect you, like,

557
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 3: you know, don't do these things, and I did them anyway,

558
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: but I kind of felt like I didn't really have

559
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: a choice.

560
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that seems clear from the fact that

561
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: you did. You know, you did take that risk, and

562
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,200
Speaker 1: you did say yes, you're a child, and you you

563
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 1: finally you speak what is unspeakable, and nothing changes. So

564
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: why would you think that anything would or that it

565
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 1: would be safe or useful to say anything else.

566
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 3: I was just glad I didn't get in trouble.

567
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 1: Were you afraid of your father? Because there is this

568
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 1: threat of violence that's running throughout and beatings and hitting

569
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 1: your mother and hitting your kids, and these wrestling games

570
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 1: that aren't really games.

571
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: And kind of like everything else, it starts in one

572
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 3: location and ends up a million miles in another place.

573
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 3: And yet I think there's a clear thread, the clear escalation.

574
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 3: I think we didn't change paths. You know, I can

575
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 3: look back at the beginning and see that these seeds

576
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 3: had been growing for a long time and initially, you know,

577
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 3: just the teaching of how discipline was going to happen

578
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 3: is that the Bible told parents to spake their children

579
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: to discipline them, to modify their behavior. But Also there

580
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 3: was this larger teaching that I heard from multiple pulpits

581
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 3: and teachings and sermons and things, that we're all sinners,

582
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 3: and we are all bad at heart. Our bodies are

583
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: the flesh tempts us, you know, as children will be

584
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 3: tempted to pinch our brothers. As adults, there's things like

585
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: murder and adultery, you know, right here in the Ten Commandments,

586
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: which we would constantly go over with Mom and a

587
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 3: Sunday school and things. And so this teaching, a lot

588
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 3: of times it's called total depravity, is like the theological word,

589
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 3: and I certainly heard a lot of theological phrases between

590
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 3: my dad my grandpa. A lot of kids wouldn't even

591
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 3: hear things like this unless they were going to seminary

592
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 3: at some point and they're an adult. But I actually

593
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 3: did hear these things as kids. And so the teaching

594
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 3: of you know, children are born naturally bad with the

595
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: sin nature, and that the proper way a parent to

596
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,080
Speaker 3: truly love their child is to instruct them in the

597
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 3: way that they should go so that they will become

598
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 3: good adults. And that's thinking is definitely a part of that.

599
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 3: And there's something to be said about where do we

600
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 3: know that something like that is wrong? Our body tells us.

601
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: You know, my body told me that incident when Dad

602
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 3: did something new and it was horrible. It was my

603
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 3: body that was telling me a no, no, no, I

604
00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: got to get out. I did not have a thought

605
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 3: or a teaching that told me it was wrong. It

606
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 3: was a really visceral physical sense. And as far as

607
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: you know, the spanking and stuff, my mom was so

608
00:37:05,000 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 3: so viewed it as having a place, a proper place.

609
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 3: But she much rather talk to us, much rather reason

610
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 3: with us, appeal to our better natures, have this right

611
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 3: a couple of Bible verses, or apologize, you know, as

612
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 3: opposed to I'm just going to spank you. In fact,

613
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 3: if that felt necessary, she would usually well Dad is

614
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: going to spank you. So she wasn't even really seen

615
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 3: as a person who could do the worst version of that.

616
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,239
Speaker 3: I stole something when I was really a little still

617
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 3: in Chicago, and I think I had done that maybe

618
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: a couple times, and it started bothering my parents. I

619
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: was like, okay, wait a second, do we have a

620
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 3: little kleptomaniac on our hands? And I got whooked. I

621
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: mean it was it was bad had bruises, and I

622
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 3: did not view that as wrong, but my body was

623
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,959
Speaker 3: so terrified, you know. And so this is quite young.

624
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 3: And although I loved being a perfect little girl, you know,

625
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: occasionally I would get in trouble. And it really is

626
00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 3: a great motivator to not be bad. Whatever that standard is,

627
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 3: whatever your parents, you know, are saying, this is what

628
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 3: a good girl does, is what a bad girl does.

629
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 3: The punishment is pretty darn severe. And even when I

630
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: wasn't in trouble, I have all these other younger siblings,

631
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 3: and some of them were quite troublesome according to my parents.

632
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: And you know, by the time we're living in Tennessee,

633
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: by the time I'm going, wait, there's this thing that

634
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:36,399
Speaker 3: I'm a part of, and I don't feel safe. If

635
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 3: you ask me, am I afraid of my dad? There

636
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 3: is a part of me that lives in fear of

637
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 3: not crossing a line to where I'm going to be

638
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: under that paddle and if I scream or move, he's

639
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,320
Speaker 3: going to start over and it's going to be dozens

640
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 3: and dozens of hits. And I'm going to live for that,

641
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 3: you know. And that sounds extreme, and I'm not trying

642
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 3: to just be sensational. But I mean, how many times

643
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 3: is that have to happen for you to straighten up?

644
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: As you graduate up, it's no longer just don't pinch

645
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 3: your brother, It's be sweet, be kind, do not, under

646
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 3: any circumstances turn into a worldly teenager that talks back

647
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: to their parents. And I'm starting to approach that threshold

648
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 3: and certainly want to do whatever I can to fit

649
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 3: into this system and this family and this religion and

650
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,640
Speaker 3: so learning about the fruits of the spirit and everything.

651
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 3: And I saw my mom work so hard to smile,

652
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 3: to be kind and long suffering and all of these things,

653
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 3: and see her struggle and crack at times. And now

654
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 3: I have this frustration of she hasn't been able to

655
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: stop this, she hasn't been able to help me. And

656
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 3: now I'm feeling that if I get angry, I'm wrong.

657
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: How am I supposed to never be angry, never be upset,

658
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 3: never be petty, never be reactive. And I don't succeed,

659
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: and you know, I start to have this reputation of like, oh,

660
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 3: you're turning into a teenager, and you know, there is

661
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:10,799
Speaker 3: this war to kind of try to be a good

662
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 3: Christian girl while understanding that some very not good things

663
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 3: were happening.

664
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

665
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,279
Speaker 1: In the midst of all else going on in Jessica's home,

666
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: her parents become very set on their children, all twelve

667
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: of them, becoming musical performers. This begins at home with

668
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: music tutors and continues in church, and then it escalates.

669
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 3: I think that some of my siblings are very naturally gifted,

670
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 3: naturally talented, and pretty much that always means, though whether

671
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 3: there's initial interest or ability was also per with For example,

672
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 3: the second sibling, my brother, he worked very hard, obsessively.

673
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 3: He would sit and you know, play his whistle over

674
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,959
Speaker 3: and over. But he was nine years old and able

675
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 3: to play full speed music that matched the records like this,

676
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 3: really complex Irish folk music as good as the professionals.

677
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 3: And you know, I mean, I think that's where a

678
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: lot of people throw around the word prodigy, and we

679
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 3: don't usually mean that someone sat down and never practiced

680
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: and just automatically was amazing. But with work and with

681
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 3: this ability to really have skill at quite a young age.

682
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: So there was that happening for me, I wanted to

683
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,800
Speaker 3: keep up. This is my younger brother, slightly younger brother,

684
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,400
Speaker 3: and as he got to do things, I want to

685
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 3: be a part of that. You know. I think there's

686
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 3: naturally kind of competition within families as in you know,

687
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 3: especially when there's a lot of people on the scene.

688
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: Dad really wanted all of us to develop as many

689
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 3: skills as possible, and then that put him in the

690
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 3: position of having these adults come and say, how do

691
00:41:59,920 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 3: you get your kids to do this? We're not breaking

692
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 3: any records here, we're not making albums. The art itself

693
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: is not that remarkable. Usually at this time, it's just

694
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 3: the fact that we're so young and we're with the program.

695
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 3: And my dad would joke with people, wonderful well meeting

696
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 3: people that you know, we're in our lives and our

697
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 3: neighborhoods and our communities, just going how do you do

698
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: this with your kids? And Dad would joke and say, well,

699
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 3: it's amazing what you can do when you don't feed them,

700
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 3: you know. And we were not starved little urchins, but

701
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 3: at times, yes, food and even psychological safety was threatened.

702
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,720
Speaker 3: What child would be if they're not responding to this bankings,

703
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 3: then they're locked out of the house or they're left

704
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,359
Speaker 3: on the side of the road. And again it's not

705
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: an everyday occurrence, but how many times does it have

706
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 3: to happen for you to get a message of oh,

707
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: I better get this program. And so my dad was

708
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 3: really leading this charge, and I think it was a

709
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 3: natural extension that just wanting to attract more and more

710
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 3: people and show off. He sawt as his philosophy that

711
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 3: was developing us children. And we were told that from

712
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: the very beginning. It wasn't like, Wow, my kids are

713
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 3: so great, I'm so proud of them too. It's like, well,

714
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 3: that's what happens when you have a parent that you

715
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 3: know has this vision and has this ability. But my

716
00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: dad was still putting most of his attention into his business.

717
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 3: Dad had this wrestling league, and this taps way back

718
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 3: into my own dad's upbringing, in his own dreams, and

719
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 3: this business is a way to reconnect with this sport

720
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 3: that he loves. Dad has quit all of that into

721
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 3: this wrestling league. Well, as it gets to this critical point,

722
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 3: we don't know exactly what's happened to all this money.

723
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 3: But between this huge house and the land of the

724
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 3: upkeep and the just bank carolling so many different things

725
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 3: and the business. It just really seems like it's in

726
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: this critical time. And it wasn't until that was no

727
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,359
Speaker 3: law longer there taking up his attention that I feel

728
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 3: like he then came to look at us as, hey,

729
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 3: I've invested all of this time, and you know what

730
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 3: you are now going to be my next time's up.

731
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 3: I need my investment back and you're actually going to

732
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: be my next business venture.

733
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: To make critical matters more critical. Around this time, the

734
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 1: Fisher family's nine thousand square foot home burns to the ground.

735
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 3: It was the day after Christmas. We were without power.

736
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 3: We cleared off our driveway, left the house because the

737
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 3: heat wasn't working, and it was like forty degrees or

738
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: something in the house, and we returned to the whole

739
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 3: thing just being a blaze on fire. The fire and

740
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:55,479
Speaker 3: news are already there. They run out of water. They're

741
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 3: trying to bring in more water, and the house was

742
00:44:58,040 --> 00:44:59,800
Speaker 3: kind of l shaped and so the short end of

743
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 3: the was completely level except for you know, chimneys and

744
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 3: a really mangled roof. There's a most shocking thing you

745
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: can see. And my dad jumped out to try to

746
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 3: help the firefighters or just check in what was going on,

747
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 3: and you know, he had his offices for his whole

748
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 3: business there, he had tapes for the next season of

749
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,240
Speaker 3: the televised competition and all this again lots of details

750
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 3: I don't necessarily know, but you know, very definitive end

751
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 3: to that chapter of my story. And it was super

752
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: weird because it felt like such a tragedy and yet

753
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,719
Speaker 3: remembering that, at least for us older kids, there was

754
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: this fiery tragedy at the very beginning of our lives

755
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: and people died in it. Our aunts and uncles died,

756
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 3: and nobody died in this. The house was gone, and

757
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: did I love it? Yes, all my toys, all my instruments.

758
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,839
Speaker 3: While everything was inside, I had started writing, so I

759
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 3: was like my writing, you know. But we were all

760
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,319
Speaker 3: in the car, and we were all safe, and there

761
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 3: was something like immediately this idea that our extended family testimony.

762
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 3: There's tragedy every day, But the thing that stood out

763
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: in people's minds was when that happens, and you praise

764
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 3: God or you don't, at least at least you don't

765
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 3: curse God. You know, you view this in a long

766
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 3: term kind of religious view. So there really was no

767
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: question that that was what we were going to like

768
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 3: that's all that we knew is that, you know, and

769
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 3: especially when there was like six of my siblings could

770
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 3: have died and we're all here.

771
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: But still it ends up feeling like it's a a

772
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 1: before and after moment, it seems, for sure, and your

773
00:46:45,239 --> 00:46:51,400
Speaker 1: father's behavior seems to escalate, at least in terms of

774
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: his temper and his violent outbursts. After that.

775
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's this weird in between time the next couple year,

776
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 3: because dad tried to keep the business going. You know,

777
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 3: are we going to rebuild the house? What's going to happen?

778
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 3: My dad was really trying to retain control. He was

779
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 3: not ready to give up I think this vision of

780
00:47:11,320 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 3: what he had been building, and so we tried to

781
00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 3: keep up with the same sort of thing, but you know,

782
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 3: we didn't have the same money. The kids that were

783
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 3: born in that house view it, you know, so differently.

784
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 3: But I was like, okay, it actually in some level

785
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 3: makes sense to me. Here we go, we go back

786
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 3: to having a place where we all have one bathroom,

787
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 3: like it just I was like, Okay, this was too

788
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 3: good to be true. It didn't last. The business eventually

789
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 3: completely failed. The house there was eventual clarity that it's

790
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,360
Speaker 3: never going to be rebuilt a gradual thing. But you know,

791
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 3: within a couple of years, all of a sudden, we

792
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,840
Speaker 3: looked around and Dad was kind of riding us with

793
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,919
Speaker 3: a bullet. Dad basically took the reins for my mom

794
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 3: and said, you are not doing a good enough job

795
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 3: with these kids. You know, none of you are performing

796
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 3: to my standards. So now I'm your coach. Now, I'm

797
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: your dance teacher now. And the truth is he couldn't

798
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: afford to pay anyone else now, but he just was like,

799
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 3: you know what, what's actually most important about this is

800
00:48:12,120 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: me and my teachings, and I'm going to turn you

801
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 3: into something that's profitable. And it started with a dance

802
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 3: exhibition once a year, and then it turned into once

803
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 3: a month, and then you know, we played our first

804
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,719
Speaker 3: little music gig not long after the house had burned down,

805
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 3: and that just escalated over time. I would say the

806
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 3: years of like two thousand and five, even up to

807
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: like twenty twelve was the slow march of developing an act.

808
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: So those years really blur together, and then it gets

809
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 3: really weird around twenty twelve.

810
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: By twenty twelve, Jessica's father's dreams have gotten bigger. They

811
00:48:51,960 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: are in fact too big. He has major plans for

812
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: the kids. They will record their music, they will perform

813
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 1: well paying get they will make a profit, and in

814
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: the meantime he's been advised to set up a financial

815
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: annuity which will not only keep them afloat, but also

816
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: enable them to buy musical equipment and to go on tour.

817
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 3: So now we're traveling everywhere in a fifteen passenger van

818
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 3: and you just plump up against realizing that most of

819
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 3: society isn't set up for a family of fourteen. You know,

820
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: you can't get a table at a restaurant. You can't,

821
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 3: you know, and people stare at you, and so, you

822
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: know what, that's okay. Dad was steering us in a

823
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: direction that was obviously more and more strange and sensational,

824
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 3: to the point where we'd go to the grocery store

825
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 3: and we'd hear, you should have your own TV show.

826
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 3: And there's families that have been on TV at that point,

827
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 3: and Dad had kind of been on the outskirts of

828
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 3: TV stuff, and I think that got in his head

829
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 3: and he, you know, he realized it's one thing to

830
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 3: have twelve kids in a row, get up and do

831
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 3: a little dance together, or do a concert together. But

832
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,239
Speaker 3: what everybody's interested and is the fact that we're all

833
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 3: in a family. How do you get your kids to

834
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 3: do that? You know, it's that same question, But now

835
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: we're years down the road. In twenty twelve, we made

836
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 3: our first record, and a big part of what we

837
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 3: did was compete, and since we got started in Irish

838
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 3: music in Chicago, it was part of our heritage. We

839
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 3: had continued going to Ireland and competing, and we basically

840
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 3: got a title in twenty twelve in one of the

841
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 3: band competitions that was a World Championship title, and we

842
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: put out an album and that now felt there was

843
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: something cool about what we were doing. And you work

844
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 3: so hard and you're pushed so far, and then you

845
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 3: start to get a little bit of traction. And what

846
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 3: I loved was getting to see other people, getting to travel,

847
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 3: getting to have these experiences. And I was very willing

848
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: to trade my kind of attention and time and skills

849
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: to be able to kind of experience more of that.

850
00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 3: And right around that time was kind of also the

851
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 3: end of the graphic sexual abuse for me. It was

852
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 3: almost like Dad was ready to ask me for something else,

853
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 3: like there was something else you wanted more from me,

854
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,640
Speaker 3: And I don't know that I could have really kind

855
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,800
Speaker 3: of sustained both of those things that now he wanted

856
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,760
Speaker 3: what I was writing and my voice and my skill.

857
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 3: He had to push me to become this kind of

858
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 3: spokes person and developed me into this entity.

859
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,399
Speaker 1: Jessica and her siblings become a successful touring band. She's

860
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: around eighteen or nineteen, and her dad hasn't sexually abused

861
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,560
Speaker 1: her for two or three years, but the abuse itself

862
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 1: hasn't stopped. Her mother is worried it's happening with another child,

863
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: and she brings it up with Jessica again, and her

864
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: mother uses a word Jessica hasn't heard before. The word

865
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: is molested. This is the first time Jessica understands that

866
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: her dad could actually go to jail for the things

867
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: he's done.

868
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 3: My response was to expend all the energy I could

869
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 3: to just pretend that never happens, never think about it,

870
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 3: move forward. I worked so hard not to remember it.

871
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 3: But because it wasn't happening specifically with me, he was

872
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 3: abusing others in the family. But I never asked, Hey,

873
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 3: this particular sister did this particular thing happen? It was, Oh,

874
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 3: something else has triggered this. Mom is paranoid all over again.

875
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 3: We all kind of talk about the problem. And when

876
00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 3: I say we all, you know, initially it's just me

877
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 3: and mom, and then it's me and mom and a

878
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: few sisters, and then afterwards it just goes back to,

879
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 3: you know, we're all a little bit more paranoid, we're

880
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 3: all a little bit more on edge, but we are

881
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:56,040
Speaker 3: still doing the same thing in ignoring it. And again,

882
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:57,760
Speaker 3: I want to be really careful that I'm not speaking

883
00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 3: to other people's experiences or mindfrel so at least for me,

884
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 3: just don't think about it, don't let it happened, just

885
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 3: move forward. And this moment really shakes that for the

886
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,959
Speaker 3: first time because Mom says a few specific things. She says, hey,

887
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 3: this particular sister said Dad has been doing stuff. And

888
00:53:16,480 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 3: just to show you how some of the dialogue was

889
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 3: talking about it without talking about it, Mom says, you know,

890
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 3: Dad is doing stuff to the sister, and I say,

891
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 3: like me, and Mom just goes worse. And I remember thinking,

892
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,479
Speaker 3: wait a second, I've never told you what he's done.

893
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 3: And since the last time I talked to you. You know,

894
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 3: it's been this whole escalating behavior over years, but how

895
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 3: can you say worse or better, you know, compare? And

896
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 3: so I'm in this moment struggling with like, I can't

897
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 3: believe I'm here again. What's going on? I don't really

898
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 3: want to know? And my brother comes in and asks

899
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 3: what's going on? And mom says dad has been molesting

900
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 3: the girl, And I'm just shocked because I was like,

901
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 3: if we're using this word now, why do we use

902
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,280
Speaker 3: that word before? I know it's kind of this official

903
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:09,640
Speaker 3: feeling word, and I still have a very limited vocabulary,

904
00:54:09,680 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 3: but I knew that that did apply to my situation.

905
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 3: And speaking of vocabulary, my brother asks, did he rape them?

906
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 3: And both my mom and I like screamed no. I

907
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,080
Speaker 3: wasn't really clear on what that word even necessarily meant.

908
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 3: Most of us have some idea in our head of

909
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,680
Speaker 3: what that means, but there's a range of things. So

910
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 3: it's a really confusing jumble of time, and there's certain

911
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 3: things that feel very distinct and clear to me that

912
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,239
Speaker 3: have like not faded with the years at all, and

913
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 3: other trunks that are missing. But what was really new

914
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,359
Speaker 3: about that is that one of my brothers found out,

915
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 3: but Dad did not confirm anything. Nobody talks specifics. I

916
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 3: did not volunteer specifics. I did not go to any

917
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 3: of my sisters and ask specifics. And what was so

918
00:54:55,719 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 3: crazy was that once again that incident was treated the

919
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 3: exact same way.

920
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: This is the closed depart one of Jessica's story. There's more,

921
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: much more to come. Here's Jessica singing from River Runaway.

922
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: Family Secret is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly's Acre is

923
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 1: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.

924
00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:49,359
Speaker 1: If you have a family secret you'd like to share,

925
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

926
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight

927
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 1: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also

928
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd like

929
00:56:04,880 --> 00:56:07,239
Speaker 1: to know more about the story that inspired this podcast,

930
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,200
Speaker 1: check out my memoir Inheritance.

931
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:14,440
Speaker 5: Shre Line, Pull Me On to Hell, It come in

932
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 5: Pool with the Window, Sunshine coming down to the same.

933
00:56:33,120 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

934
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.