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Speaker 1: So that's so that's came up the other day in conversation.

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Speaker 1: We've been talking about this for years when it comes

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Speaker 1: to presidential elections that, for instance, debate are are about

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Speaker 1: the stupidest way to try to compare to candidates. That's

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Speaker 1: so called debates, which aren't debates. No, they aren't debates

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Speaker 1: in any way, yet the media acts like they are

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Speaker 1: and at the end they ask who do you think

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Speaker 1: one and and it's just the whole thing is stupid.

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Speaker 1: And now we've moved onto these town hall creations, which

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Speaker 1: I like better than the debates. But um, we're we're

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Speaker 1: We've always just been wondering what what's the best way

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Speaker 1: to pick a president of the United States. Seems like

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Speaker 1: we go about it in a terrible way. Let's introduce

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Speaker 1: our guest, Lan Heatchen, the host of the podcast Crossing

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Speaker 1: Lines with Lan Hea Chen, David and Diane Stephy, research

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Speaker 1: fellow Toover Institution, also the director of Domestic Policy Studies

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Speaker 1: and Lecture at Stanford University. Loan he how are you, sir?

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Speaker 1: Good morning, get to be with you. Good morning. So

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Speaker 1: at the end of our discussion last time around, the

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Speaker 1: topic came up of the primaries and how they've changed,

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Speaker 1: and how they often yield on electable candidates, and and

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Speaker 1: we're talking about what you thought would be the best

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Speaker 1: way for the parties to boil down the would be

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Speaker 1: candidates and pick somebody, Um, you want to start with

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Speaker 1: the Jack's topics there, the so called debates are idiotic

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Speaker 1: in our minds. What would be better than that? Well,

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Speaker 1: you guys have a great point about debates. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've you know, I've been involved in four presidential campaigns

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Speaker 1: and been in a senior role in two of them,

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Speaker 1: and what I can tell you about these debates is

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Speaker 1: that there's nothing more than theater and and the challenges.

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Speaker 1: Instead of having a real discussion about issues, what you

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Speaker 1: really have are you know, one to two minute position

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Speaker 1: statements that are really about posturing and about trying to

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Speaker 1: appeal to certain constituencies rather than really trying to answer

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Speaker 1: the questions. So I tend to agree that one of

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Speaker 1: the problems we have is now we've got a primary

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Speaker 1: process where you literally have fifteen twenty debates before you

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Speaker 1: even get to people actually voting. And I'm just not

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Speaker 1: sure that's the best way to do it. I would

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Speaker 1: prefer a system where people actually get to answer questions

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Speaker 1: substantively that the town hall thing actually isn't bad because

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Speaker 1: there you get a little bit more insight and a

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Speaker 1: little bit more detail. But even then, the way these

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Speaker 1: guys set it up, a lot of people in the media,

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Speaker 1: it's just about gotcha questions and that doesn't get us anywhere.

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Speaker 1: And I I'm bothered by crowd response. That's always bothered

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Speaker 1: me in debates. It makes it more fun to watch.

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Speaker 1: It feels kind of weird when there's no crowd and

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Speaker 1: it's just dead silent. But then it all becomes about

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Speaker 1: what line gets the biggest cheers or hoops or booze

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Speaker 1: or whatever. And that's a heck of a way to

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Speaker 1: run a run a dog and pony show. Well, yeah, Lony,

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Speaker 1: you've been involved in in campaigns, it would be pretty

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Speaker 1: easy to load a town hall audience with twenty people

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Speaker 1: who are in favor of puppy side, I mean, just anything,

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Speaker 1: and they cheer like crazy and people think, yeah, that

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Speaker 1: person is really popular. Yeah, I mean you saw You've

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Speaker 1: seen this every every time around in UM there were

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Speaker 1: debates in the Republican primary, for example. I recall there

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Speaker 1: being debates UH in New Hampshire for example, there was

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Speaker 1: a debate in New Hampshire where Marco Rubio, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: had a gap essentially where he basically you know, the

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Speaker 1: knock on him when he was repeating the same thing

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Speaker 1: over and over again and people in the crowd were

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Speaker 1: booing and hooting, and it was pretty clear that Chris

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Speaker 1: Christie's team, his campaign had basically packed the audience against Rubio.

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Speaker 1: And there was another debate where Rubio had essentially packed

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Speaker 1: the audience. And this is the kind of theater you

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Speaker 1: end up with, which is it's all about getting that

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Speaker 1: crowd response. You guys may remember in two thousand eight

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Speaker 1: there were YouTube debates. There were debates which essentially featured

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Speaker 1: questions from people on YouTube and it was the most

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Speaker 1: random thing ever. And that's what you end up with.

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Speaker 1: You end up with these situations which you know, to

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Speaker 1: the ordinary person watching, they think, wow, gosh, well that's

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Speaker 1: you know, it seems like that person didn't do all

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Speaker 1: that well and they don't realize all of the stagecraft

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Speaker 1: that goes into it. So this is this is the

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Speaker 1: problem with the current system. Okay, so obviously we need

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Speaker 1: something see Spanish no audience, even handed moderation or extended

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Speaker 1: answers or is came up last time when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about this. Do we go backwards in time to

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Speaker 1: where the parties get together with the powerful alone in

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Speaker 1: a room and make their own decision and who they

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Speaker 1: think ought to be representing their party. Would that be better? Well?

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Speaker 1: I think in some ways it would produce an outcome

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Speaker 1: where you would ensure that the nominees of each party, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, probably were people that had very similar profiles, right,

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Speaker 1: So you would have people who had been in government,

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Speaker 1: who had experience, who you know, had had essentially good

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Speaker 1: relationships within the party. And I think in some ways

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Speaker 1: that would produce a more more main streams that of candidates.

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Speaker 1: I just don't think that would ever happen in this

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Speaker 1: day and age. To go back to this question of

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Speaker 1: how to some candidates for a minute in the general

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Speaker 1: election when we have the general election, the debate structure

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Speaker 1: in the general election where you've got two candidates, that

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Speaker 1: the structure is set, the audience cannot respond to anything

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Speaker 1: that's said during the debate. You've got usually pretty well

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Speaker 1: regarded journalists who are the moderators. That structure is not

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Speaker 1: bad in terms of comparing candidates, but really what we

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Speaker 1: need is we need an informational platform for the American

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Speaker 1: people to really see what everybody is about. And I

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Speaker 1: tend to think that will help a little bit, you know,

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Speaker 1: not not the smoke filled rooms process, but when will

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Speaker 1: we get more information out there that tends to be

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Speaker 1: the better idea? Boy, definitely, the dozen or more people

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Speaker 1: on stage where they each speak for forty five seconds

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Speaker 1: is practically worthless. Lan he Chen is online host of

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Speaker 1: the podcast Crossing Lines with Lan he Chen. So, yeah

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Speaker 1: again to the question of, you know, the primary process.

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Speaker 1: The word democracy is thrown around like a religious incantation

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Speaker 1: these days, as if more DeMont cristy is always better

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Speaker 1: and always yields a better result. When that's not true. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's funny. I keep going back and see

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Speaker 1: the bullet train in California. Oh yeah, for instance, or

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Speaker 1: you know, I remember being fascinating. I think it was.

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Speaker 1: One of my college professors pointed out that democracies are

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Speaker 1: very bad at ending wars because there's national pride involved

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Speaker 1: in all sorts of things, and you have to build

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Speaker 1: a consensus, whereas a dictator can just say this ain't

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Speaker 1: work and and and end it and he's not gonna

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Speaker 1: suffer for it probably anyway. So the idea of the

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Speaker 1: party elders of smoke filled rooms, those people getting together

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Speaker 1: with an outsized influencer, complete influence, and saying, look, Bernie's

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Speaker 1: never ever gonna win. We need somebody more reasonable than that.

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Speaker 1: Let's look at X, Y or Z that has its appeal.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I could see that yielding over

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Speaker 1: and over again candidates on both sides who are just

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Speaker 1: going to perpetuate the concentration of power in Washington, Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. Deficit spending and and the scam continuing. So

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what I think. Yeah, and you

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Speaker 1: never really get disruption, and sometimes in a democratic process

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Speaker 1: what you need and want is distruction. You want people

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Speaker 1: who come along. I mean, for for all of the

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Speaker 1: discussion about Donald Trump, what what he was primarily into

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Speaker 1: dozand of sixteen was someone who came along and completely

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Speaker 1: disrupted the process. And I didn't be upset a lot

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Speaker 1: of people, for sure, but to a certain degree, that

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Speaker 1: is what That is what people want every so often. Now,

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Speaker 1: every so often they want something different, and that that's

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Speaker 1: what democratic processes are designed to yield. The design to

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Speaker 1: be responsive to what people are feeling and what they want,

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Speaker 1: and that has downside. Now, It's one thing when you

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Speaker 1: talk about candidate you guys mentioned the bullet train. It's

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Speaker 1: another thing when you talk about policy and letting people

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Speaker 1: legislate every couple of years, things that may be completely different.

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Speaker 1: And I have a big problem with how significant the

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Speaker 1: initiative process, for example, has become in California or in

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Speaker 1: other states. The California is a perfect example. Will you

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Speaker 1: go to the ballot and you've got twenty different issues

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Speaker 1: that you're expected to vote on, and who knows about

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Speaker 1: some of this stuff? I mean, it's absolutely ludicrous that

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Speaker 1: we're asked to vote on sometimes, but that's the process.

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Speaker 1: That's that's what happens. When you have a process that's

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Speaker 1: designed to be maximally democratic, you end up with like

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Speaker 1: voting on things that you have no clue what you're

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Speaker 1: actually voting on. That's not healthy for democracy well, and

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Speaker 1: and the winner carries the force of law, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's been a disaster for folks listening all over the

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Speaker 1: fruited plane and foreign lands. The initiative process in California

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Speaker 1: more democracy has been an unmitigated disaster because you get

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Speaker 1: to special interest groups, whether their unions or whatever. They

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Speaker 1: higher good pr people. They got plenty and money to

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Speaker 1: pay for them. They spin the heck out of these

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Speaker 1: issues or paint rosy rosy pictures of this, that or

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Speaker 1: the other, and the poor suckers at California you don't

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Speaker 1: have half a clue on transportation infrastructure, for instance. Vote

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Speaker 1: for something utterly idiotic and then it's just it's impossible

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Speaker 1: to kill. So beware lanhi chan us with us crossing

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Speaker 1: lines with Lan Eachen, Go ahead. No, let's say it's

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Speaker 1: big business. I mean, that's where it comes down to you, guys.

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Speaker 1: I mean that the whole initiative thing is big business

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Speaker 1: for for people who work in the in the campaign industry,

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Speaker 1: and that's what it's become. You've got signature gatherers, you've

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Speaker 1: got people who do the advertising, people who do quote

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Speaker 1: grass roots work. I mean, it's big business. And that's

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Speaker 1: why the entrenched interests will probably never want to really

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Speaker 1: change the system because they make a lot of money

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Speaker 1: off of it. Hey can we get before we run

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Speaker 1: out time? Four five seconds? Amoch? Can I get a

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Speaker 1: bottom line real quick on the previous thing? So would

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Speaker 1: you go with the current system with just different debates

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Speaker 1: and such and let the lots of democracy into the

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Speaker 1: primary system. Or do you like super delegates kind of

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Speaker 1: the older mix or what? What? What would you be

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Speaker 1: your bottom line? Yeah? I like cute things. One is

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Speaker 1: I like a debate process that's got fewer debate with

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Speaker 1: rules that are designed for more civil discussion and people

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Speaker 1: actually hearing about issues. And I do like the you know,

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Speaker 1: some party elder element, whether it's super delegates, what people

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Speaker 1: who understand what the implications are for the parties having

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Speaker 1: a slightly outsized voice, not as totally outside voice, but

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Speaker 1: as slightly outside So can we get forty five seconds

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Speaker 1: on the whole China trade thing? Tariff situation is a

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Speaker 1: Trump on the right side of this? Well, look, I

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Speaker 1: think that at the end of the day, both the

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Speaker 1: United States and China need a deal. I think the

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Speaker 1: Chinese need a deal worse because their economy is really struggling,

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Speaker 1: and it just demonstrates how dependent they are on on trade.

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Speaker 1: But but fundamentally, in the long run, it's not healthy

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Speaker 1: for either economy to have continuing conflict terrorists. In my mind,

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Speaker 1: in the long run, probably not the right answer. I

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Speaker 1: think they end up raising costs for consumers here. But

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Speaker 1: in the short run, I think getting China to the

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Speaker 1: table and forcing them to recognize, hey, they've got to

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Speaker 1: make some changes. They can't stop being they can't continue

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Speaker 1: stealing intellectual property and requiring US companies to be in

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Speaker 1: joint ventures where especially their excuses to rip off our stuff.

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Speaker 1: That certainly is the right path, but it's not a

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Speaker 1: sustained along the tap out hope they could get to

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Speaker 1: some kind of systemic reformed seeing. Yeah, I don't think

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Speaker 1: anybody's thinking of this in the long term, but we'll see.

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Speaker 1: Lan he Chen crossing lines of the line. Hea Chen,

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Speaker 1: look for the podcast for podcasts are distributed. Lani is

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Speaker 1: also a fellow with the Hoover Institution and heads up

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Speaker 1: the Domestic Policy program at Stanford University. Lan he thanks

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Speaker 1: as always good stuff for all your food is out there.

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Speaker 1: I'm unwrapping a McDonald's steak, egg and cheese bagel. Look

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Speaker 1: at this steak and the juice running down the side.

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Speaker 1: Get a little bit on a wrapper here, and then

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Speaker 1: the fluffy egg and real cheese flowed over the thigh,

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Speaker 1: looking just so good. Grey old onions and a butt

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Speaker 1: of bagel too, founds off a mcdonald' steak, egg and

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Speaker 1: cheeze bagel for breakfast. Love It Up, I participate in

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Speaker 1: McDonald's