WEBVTT - The Gerasene Demoniac 0:00:06.240 --> 0:00:12.119 Come out of the man thou let spirit. What is 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:19.040 thy name? My name is Legion, because yawnny, and he 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:21.520 besought him much that he would not send them away 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:25.200 out of the country. Now there was there nigh unto 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.840 the mountains, a great herd of swine feeting, and all 0:00:29.000 --> 0:00:33.480 the devils besought him, saying, sitting us among the peaks, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:38.720 allow us to go into them, and forthwith Jesus gave 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.200 them leave, and the unclean spirits went out and entered 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.440 into the swine, and the herd ran violently down a 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:48.720 steep place into the sea, and were choked from the sea. 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:07.720 Welcome Stuff to Blow your Mind. A production of I 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:16.680 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:18.960 to blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.800 I'm Joe McCormick. And it's still October, so of course 0:01:21.880 --> 0:01:26.800 we're letting out a great demonic oink today, Robert, I know. So, 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:29.560 so you wanted to talk about a demoniac today. And 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.720 this was a very exciting idea to me because this 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:36.200 story in the Bible about the garrison or gathering demoniac 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:39.160 has long been one of my favorites, but also because 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.240 it's a story that concerns possessed swine. I think it 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:47.000 gives us a great opportunity to talk about pig technology. Yeah, 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.840 this is this is a really fun one. I guess 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.240 you'd say. This is definitely a section of the New 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:55.960 Testament that I remember turning to when I would if 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.560 I was bored in church growing up, because it it 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:02.080 is such a weird little scene, you know, Jesus meeting 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:05.600 with um an individual that's possessed not by one demon, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.000 but by like thousands of demons, a legion of demons 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:13.280 and uh, and then negotiating them out of the man, 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.960 but not only that, sending them then into a whole 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.000 bunch of pigs, which subsequently fall off the side of 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.760 a cliff into the ocean. Inge rown right. And there 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:22.800 are plenty of other stories in the New Testament about 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:27.960 Jesus doing various healings, doing exorcisms, so that that happens elsewhere. 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.480 But it's like the setting and the weird conclusion of 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:34.440 this story that make it so memorable going into the pigs. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:37.600 So maybe we should look at the story in a 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:40.120 little bit of context and then come back to talk 0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:43.679 about thoughts about it's you know, historical and theological role, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:46.640 and then thoughts about pigs as animals and uh and 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.360 what a stampede of of devilish intelligence they might bring forth. 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.080 So I guess let's start with the story in the 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:55.480 context of the Gospel of Mark. And I think that's 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:58.160 a good place to start, because pretty much all scholars 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.360 agree that Mark is the earliest of the four canonical gospels, 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.760 since it's clear that the other gospels used Mark as 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.880 a source and like they made variations on it according 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.880 to their storytelling priorities, and probably also from the use 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.720 of other sources. Uh. Now, this story does also appear 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.639 in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke, but with some changes. Uh. So. 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.720 In the Gospel of Mark, the story happens in chapter five, 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:25.760 and it's right after a chapter where Jesus is out 0:03:25.800 --> 0:03:28.560 preaching to a crowd. He tells the crowd a bunch 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:31.639 of familiar parables, like the parable of the lamp under 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.720 the bushel basket and the parable of the mustard seed. 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:36.640 You know, if you have faith is only the size 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:40.680 of a mustard seed, you can do great things, hits right. Uh. 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.000 And in the chapters before this in Mark, he's done 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.240 some various preaching, some healing. I think he heals the paralytic, 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:49.360 he heals a man with a withered hand. But so 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:51.960 at the end of this UH, at the fourth chapter, 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:55.080 after he's been doing this preaching, Jesus says, okay, let's 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.400 go across the sea, which is taken to refer to 0:03:57.440 --> 0:04:00.440 the Sea of Galilee. It's a body of water UH 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.440 in the area. So Jesus and the disciples leave behind 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.880 the crowds. They get in the boat to cross the water, 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.680 and on the way across, a big storm comes up, 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:11.320 and the disciples are all shaken in their boots. But 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.520 then Jesus wakes up and he says, peace be still, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.240 and the storm is replaced with dead calm. And then 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:22.599 Jesus goes on to immediately shame his disciples for being afraid, saying, 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:25.760 have you still no faith? And they're all of course 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.400 amazed by his powers, saying who is this then that 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.599 even the wind and the sea obey him. So I think, 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:35.160 in the context of the Gospel story, UH, this preacher 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.480 Jesus has been telling parables that shows great wisdom about 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.400 the coming Kingdom of God, and he's showing more and 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:44.159 more direct power himself all the time, not just as 0:04:44.200 --> 0:04:47.320 a teacher, but as possibly some kind of sorcerer or 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:50.080 even divine being. And that's when we get to the 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.520 demoniac here. So they get to the other side of 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:55.120 the Sea of Galilee, and Mark says it's in the 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.320 country of the Garacenes, but other gospels say it's in 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:00.880 a different place, the country of the Maternes. And that's 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.320 why they're different names for this story, the gathering Swine, 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.560 the gathering demoniac, the Guarristine and swine the Garristine demoniac. 0:05:08.040 --> 0:05:11.160 But wherever it is, we immediately meet this man out 0:05:11.200 --> 0:05:14.919 of the tombs. Yeah. And it's it's worth noting that, 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.600 you know, the differences in the other two gospels. Um, 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:21.760 in Matthew, for instance, it's not one man out of 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.560 the tomb, but two men out of the tomb. Uh. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:26.920 And then also in Luke, it's one man again, but 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.160 this time he's also naked, as if to you know, 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.920 really stress the feral nature of the individual. Well, yes, 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:37.039 and then Luke's telling of the story, Uh, it's I 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.040 think it's that's the one where it's stressed that he 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.599 was naked before he got the demons cast out, and 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.160 then he puts on clothes at once the demons are 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.680 out of him, right, and then sometimes in like retellings 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:50.640 I've noticed, especially in artistic depictions of this scene, sometimes 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.039 the artists seemed to just pick and choose from all three, 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:55.040 you know. So I saw one where it was two 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:58.560 naked individuals serving as the men of the tomb. Oh, 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:01.080 this is a very common thing that happens. Because you've got, 0:06:01.120 --> 0:06:03.560 you know, different versions of the same story that appear 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.920 across the four Gospels. Sometimes people will just, like as 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:09.640 modern readers come, bind them all into one, so they'll 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:11.839 put all the elements there next to each other in 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.880 ways that don't always make sense, but it can be funny. 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:18.320 So what follows is, yeah, an exorcism scene, you know, 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:21.200 one that's maybe not as as dramatic as modern horror 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.240 viewers would would hope for. It's a little more more 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.400 of a negotiation in some respects. Yeah, but yeah, on 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.320 the face of it, we have a very disturbed individual 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.279 who seems to live among the tombs and abuses himself 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.480 with rocks, like scratching himself up with rocks. Yeah, we're 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:39.640 told he lives in the graveyard, but he spends day 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.960 and night prowling the graveyard in the mountains, bruising himself 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.280 with rocks and howling. Yeah, and then of course when 0:06:46.360 --> 0:06:49.120 Jesus shows up, right, we get the the unclean spirits. 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:53.480 Immediately they start begging Jesus like they recognize his power, 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:55.400 which I think is a thing that's supposed to be 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.120 important in the story. Yeah, they realized they don't have 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:02.200 a lot of bargaining strength her into this. It's like 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:04.880 when the bad Cops shows up in the interrogation room. 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:07.599 They're like, oh no, yeah, now we're we've been getting 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:09.920 away with this, but now we're in trouble. And so 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.280 they immediately begged Jesus not to send them away. They 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.600 reveal their name, which I think we can come back 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:18.280 to that, but that might be a theologically significant thing. 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:21.400 They revealed their name is Legion, as in a large 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:24.520 Roman military unit consisting of more than a thousand soldiers. 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:26.520 It was different numbers at different times. Yeah. I was 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:30.080 looking at at various modern translations, and there's at least 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.720 one translation that just said our name is a lot 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.240 because there are a lot of us. I mean, I 0:07:35.280 --> 0:07:37.200 do think that's sort of what it was supposed to mean, 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:42.800 but but it lacks that right you know, like, what 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.240 if it was the name is a whole message us, 0:07:45.800 --> 0:07:48.360 Like what if the film was The Exorcist three colon 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:54.200 a lot instead of Legion, which which of course is 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:57.560 referring back to this very this very line. Uh. Though 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.280 it might also be significant that Legion is like a 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.280 Roman concept because of course at the time, like a 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:07.280 huge theme of the Gospels is that the people, the 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.160 Jewish people are being occupied by the Romans, and there 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:12.600 are a lot of sort of rebellious sentiments and anti 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.760 Roman ideas. Yeah, yeah, and when we'll definitely come back 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.800 to some of the Roman elements here. Yeah. But to 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.880 conclude the story, of course, this was in the opening 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:25.080 passage we read. But Jesus commands the demons out. They 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.760 asked him to send them into a flock of pigs nearby, 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:30.240 and Jesus is like, okay, take the pigs. So he 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.600 sends them into the pigs, and then the pigs immediately 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.000 go stampeding down into the water of the Sea of 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:39.120 Galilee to their doom. So I see overall that I 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:41.400 think this story in its place in the Gospel of 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:44.560 Mark is kind of an escalation moment. Like Jesus keeps 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.600 showing greater and greater power, not just wisdom and teaching, 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.960 not just power over the winds and the seas, but 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.760 now even over a legion of demons. And so all 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.320 the disciples are of course like, oh wow, how you 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:59.560 know he's he's so powerful. They keep emphasizing that this 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:01.600 is even more powerful than we thought he was before. 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:03.760 So I was looking around for a little more information 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.680 on this than I read A Spirit Possession and the 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:11.679 Garrison h Demoniac by J. Duncan M. Derrett from The 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.720 journal Man in nine and he made the following points 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.200 about it. The first of all, he points out there 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:21.080 are no really important textual textual variance of the tale, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.640 you know, like one one man possessed by demons, too 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:26.240 naked or not naked like still, that the story is 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.760 essentially the same. Now, I wonder if that also refers 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:32.520 to the fact that there are not major like non 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:36.280 canonical early older texts that have different versions of the 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.160 story that change, because that is the case with some stories. 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.480 He also points out that the man here is clearly 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:47.480 shunned as unclean, and he's engaging and in kind of 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:50.840 an out of control cleansing ritual, you know, the scraping 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:54.960 of the body, um you know, the the abusing of 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.960 himself with rocks, you know, really on those same lines 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:03.720 as like flagellation and so forth. Um Deret also draws 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:07.720 comparisons to various rights of possession in other cultures where 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.520 sensation to physical pain is dulled, which I think is 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:16.520 an interesting point because there are various like especially religious 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:19.720 trials and rituals, in which one will do something that 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:23.080 is either you know, definitely painful or takes on the 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:26.680 appearance of painful and just be via the like the 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:32.319 frenzy of the of the ritual, one is able to 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:36.480 to experience less pain or to uh or at least 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.079 it's you know, you get into that area where it's 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.240 like there's the experience of the of the right, and 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.400 then there is the the story of the right you know. 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:45.840 Well yeah. This also makes me think, of course, about 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.600 the nature of what was going on when people believe 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.000 they encounter demon possession in the ancient world. I mean, so, 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:53.800 of course, there are multiple theories about this, and it 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:56.120 would probably vary from case to case. Of course, one 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.760 major and pretty obvious thing is the idea that people 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:01.920 in the ancient world often didn't understand that they were 0:11:01.920 --> 0:11:05.320 looking at the symptoms of various mental illnesses, and you know, 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.120 would characterize that as a person being possessed by an 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:11.600 unclean spirit. But you could also imagine a person who 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.960 might not necessarily have a particular mental illness, but would 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.960 be prompted in some various way by the religious context 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:22.520 to believe that they were possessed in some way and 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.880 act out the role. Yeah. I think of some of 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:29.360 the medieval rights of penance that would come much later, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:34.120 in which one would say, for instance, flatulate yourself with 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.240 with sticks or whips, uh you know where, ragged clothing 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:41.320 and crawl through the streets. Uh, you know that sort 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.720 of thing. Uh. So in in in all of this, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:46.960 Dred is saying that this is you know, potentially essentially 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.640 at the theater of protests that's taking place. You know 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:52.200 that there is a you know, there's a performance quality 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.640 to it, um of course. And then he points out that, 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:58.400 you know, Jesus acquires the demon's name, which is often 0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:02.400 an important aspect of some sort of an exorcism ritual. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.000 And I think that even shows up in like the 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:09.640 the Conjuring movies, right. Really, Yeah, I didn't know if 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:13.480 there was a like an actual ancient exorcism precedent for that, 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:15.640 but it's in the second Conjuring movie. There's this whole 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:17.840 thing where it's like I figured out the demon's name, 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.319 now I can defeat it. Oh yeah, it's definitely definitely 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.800 part of Dungeons and Dragons, you know, really the demon's name, 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:26.160 you have some power over it. Usually from the Gospel 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:30.160 of Guy GaX. Yeah. Um. And then he also points 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.320 out what we just discussed already. Legion is, of course 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.920 a military term. The man is possessed by a host 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.319 of demons, and Jesus is he's either speaking to all 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.760 of them or perhaps to the leader commanding them. And 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:43.439 Jesus has presented as being, you know, much more than 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.760 a match for an entire legion of demons. Like you said, 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:47.600 this is a lot of this is about presenting just 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:51.080 how how powerful Jesus is. Yes, And I think that's 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:53.679 an important point of comparison. When even you look at 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:56.280 something like in The Exorcist, you know, the priests show 0:12:56.400 --> 0:12:59.120 up and the demon taunts them and stuff. It's like, okay, 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:01.679 I'm ready to do bad attle. When Jesus shows up, 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.760 the demon is immediately crying uncle. He's like Oh no, 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.200 don't send me out too far. Maybe just let me 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.800 go to the pigs, like he immediately knows he's beaten now. Pigs, 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.920 Derek reminds us, were slaughtered in offering to the underworld 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.960 at Roman burials, thus their connection to the tombs and 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:25.160 to this particular individual's fascination with morbidity and with death. 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.440 Pigs are associated with sacrifices to demons as well as 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.959 with beast reality, and Derett stresses that there is a 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.000 sexual connotation to spirit possession. Uh, you know, this idea 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.080 of of entering into the pigs, or also just the 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.480 idea of a spirit having entered into you and taken 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.080 hold of your senses. Well, that also makes me think 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:50.760 about another possible explanation for a belief in spirit possession 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.120 in the ancient world, which is just maybe a person 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:56.839 wasn't even necessarily experiencing symptoms of mental illness or even 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.760 acting out a possession. Maybe they were just behaving in 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.320 an unconventional way and people around them said, well, you know, 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.679 nobody in the right mind would act like that. So 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.679 if they violated sexual taboos or something like that, you 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.120 could say they must have had a demon in order 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:13.520 to do that. Now, one thing that he does point 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.640 out is that pigs are actually great swimmers, really yeah, 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.640 and also that they don't stampede. So there's a big 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.960 problem with this idea of potentially it defends how I 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:26.520 guess you read into the demon possession of the pigs. 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.920 But pigs on their own are not going to stampede. 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:31.960 They're probably not going to drown in the river. Now, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.160 I guess you could say that, well, they're not. They're 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:37.040 no longer pig brains controlling those pigs. Those are scared 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.680 demon brains, and maybe they don't know how to swim. Well, 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.080 this is funny. I was also looking up examples. I 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.160 was trying to find things about pigs stampeding. I didn't 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:50.720 really find anything like good documented like zoological literature about 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:54.280 pig stampeding, though I did find a news story about 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:58.920 supposedly somewhere in Syria stampede of pigs killing some IIS 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.520 fighters and in recent years. But I think that's probably 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.280 just like a news like a journalist appellation. It might 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:07.480 have not have been a stampede, but just like a 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.200 herd of pigs. Wasn't there a scene in a cornte 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:13.880 McCarthy novel where I heard of pigs trample off into 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.040 the river, though probably a reference to this very tale. 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:17.400 I feel like it was. It was one of the 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:22.040 Appalachian books, like maybe Child of God or Outer Dark. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.600 I don't know. I've I've read some of those books, 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.240 but I don't remember that scene. But I could be wrong. Yeah, 0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.560 it might not have been picked, been something else. But 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:34.080 there are a lot of drowned animals at one point, 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.360 certainly now on the uncleanliness of pigs. Obviously, much has 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.240 been written about this because there you know, there there 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:45.400 are uh supposed practical reasons that pork is prohibited in 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:48.720 Judaism and Islam. One is that pigs are not very 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.760 sustainable and drier environments. That's the argument. Another is that pork, 0:15:52.880 --> 0:15:55.600 of course can contain trickin nosis, but of course that's 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:59.400 taken care of if it's cooked properly. Um so, so 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:01.880 it's often in it out that like that, even when 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:07.680 Judaism and Islam, even when these religions travel out of 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.040 areas where you could make the argument that a pig 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.920 is not suitable for this environment, like, the restriction still remains. Yeah, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.000 I'm not sure. I'm convinced by any of the alleged 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.320 practical reasons behind the prohibition on pork and other foods 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:25.160 in Judaism and Islam, because I mean, I haven't seen 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.480 any really convincing evidence there. It seems to be more likely. 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:31.840 This is another one of the many unique practices and 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.640 characteristics you'd find in any religion or culture that don't 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.760 necessarily result from some kind of clear material environmental mandate. 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:40.600 I mean, there are some like we were just recently 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:44.760 talking about, you know, sky burial practices in Tibet being 0:16:44.840 --> 0:16:48.160 a religious cultural practice, but perhaps resulting from the fact 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.240 that also within that landscape, it's hard to find places 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.680 to dig graves, it's hard to find wood to burn 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.040 bodies with, so it just sort of makes sense from 0:16:56.040 --> 0:17:00.560 a material environmental standpoint. I think sometimes explanations like that 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:02.600 makes sense. But I'm I'm not convinced by any of 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:05.479 the pork ones, right. Another one that sometimes brought up 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.840 well there in the texts themselves. Sometimes a point is 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.880 made about the cloven hoof, which seems kind of nonsensical. Why, yeah, 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:17.040 what's the problem. Yeah, there's also the idea that, well, 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.520 pigs are omnivores and they may consume scavenged flesh, and 0:17:20.560 --> 0:17:23.040 that could be seen as unclean. But yes, we've discussed 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:25.640 in the show before even strict herbivores will eat meat 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:30.240 on occasion. Um. I Unfortunately, like I did some searching 0:17:30.359 --> 0:17:33.000 on this, uh and and saw some videos of like 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:36.320 like how many ducklings can can a particular cow eat that? 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.560 You know? I mean, it just it happens, it's it's 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:46.440 it's so it's never considered cows before. We've thought about 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:49.960 like deer eating meat. Of course, squirrels and meat, we think, yeah, 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:54.000 wilder creatures, right, But this now is just haunting my brain. 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.280 Why is it so much scarier to be eaten by 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:58.840 a cow than any other animal? I can think because 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:01.040 you trusted it so much. I thought that you had it, 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:04.600 had invested through a domestication. Seems so docile, and then 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:07.119 it jumps seven feet straight in the air and eats you. 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:09.399 Have you ever seen how high cows can jump? It 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.119 looks wrong. I don't know that I have. Certainly I'm 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.080 always impressed by how fast a horse can move, and 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:16.879 how fast it can like PLoP unto the ground and 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.879 pop back up again. So let's get back though to 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.920 the religious reasons that ultimately the social reasons to prohibit 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:28.400 something like a pork is explained by a Nigel Barber, PhD. 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:32.080 In psychology today. The signaling theory of religion puts forth 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.639 that abstaining from something like pork is a way of 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:37.879 signaling your devotion and provides something that a social group 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:40.960 can bond over, and there's a you're all going to 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:44.960 be paying a ritual cost for this. Basically, food taboos 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:48.879 keep co religionists together and and it's something where like 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:52.000 everyone has to give up something, you have to pay 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.920 a fee to to join this club. Yeah, that makes 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:58.600 a lot of sense to me. Again, I don't know 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.119 that that's the primary real reason, but that certainly seems 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.359 very plausible. I mean, I think they are all kinds 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:08.720 of things that religions do where the main goal of 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.960 doing them is showing that you are a devoted member 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:14.760 of the religion and good standing. Right. Yeah, I mean, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.359 like for a modern example, one turns to like the 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.960 straight edge movement. Right, We're on one hand, you can say, okay, 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.440 there is a sort of signaling going on here. People 0:19:23.440 --> 0:19:26.920 who are abstaining from these various substances are doing so 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.040 and by doing so they can they can claim to 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:32.679 be a part of a particular group. However, it's not 0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:36.160 the only thing, like they're also you know, any individual 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.960 that's that's following that lifestyle will also point to other 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:41.720 reasons why they are abstaining, not merely to be a 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.040 part of a group, but for you know, various other 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:48.440 lifestyle purposes. Oh sure, yeah, yeah, I mean, but whether 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.479 or not those other reasons are also truly motivating them, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.800 I think it's hard to deny that shared abstinence creates solidarity. Right, 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:58.359 But to come back to the Romans, the Romans definitely 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.960 a pork. And so when the Omens roll in and began, 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:05.600 you know, controlling your territory, derating the pork, you are not. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.160 There's a firm line to be drawn in the sand 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.760 there between us and them, right right, So there could 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.439 be like people all around with flocks of pigs that 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:15.400 they're preparing to eat, and you can look at those 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.240 things and be like, well, that's no part of my life. Yeah. 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:22.440 And of course, ultimately, you know, rules against eating certain 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:25.000 animals are going to be kind of an arbitrary agreement. 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.160 And I think a huge example of this, as well 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.480 discussed is the predominant American notion that it's well and 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:33.080 good to eat a pig, that eating a pig is 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:35.680 something that should be celebrated, we should have parades about it. 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:38.399 But eating a dog, well, that's just that's just not 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:41.880 acceptable now. And then nature of exercismicism itself, Well, we've 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.120 covered exorcism on the show before, and I think it's 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:46.720 always important to to think about rights of exorcism across 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.679 various cultures. Is is being rights potentially too, of expulsion 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:54.560 of negative feelings, uh, negative attributes, and in some cases 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.520 an attempt crude attempt in some cases to treat mental illness, 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:01.920 you know. But I think think we have to think about, 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.480 you know, a tendency to think about the exorcisms as 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:07.439 a pure, superstitious right, and you know, not to think 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:11.480 about its connotations to more secular rights, such as expelling 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.440 negative thoughts via breath in various meditation and yoga practices, 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:17.720 you know. I mean, we don't think of that as exorcism, 0:21:17.720 --> 0:21:20.119 We don't think of that as magic, but it is 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:23.399 an exercise that can allow us to well to to 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.440 to quote, doone to you know, to allow your your 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.919 fear to pass over and through you Oh yeah. I 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.280 mean I've see no problem at all from a secular standpoint, 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:37.919 excepting that exorcism could sometimes be a successful psychological intervention, 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.800 not because there are actually like like spirit demons, but 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.119 because like going like you're saying, like going through a 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:47.880