WEBVTT - Rat lungworm (featuring Dr. Chelsea Wood) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:04.760 Howdy extraordinaries. Today we are talking about a somewhat unpleasant parasite. 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:08.320 And it's not just because I have a morbid fascination 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:11.479 with parasites. We had a couple listener requests to talk 0:00:11.480 --> 0:00:15.440 about rat lungworm in particular, and this is a parasite 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.120 that is spreading in its range and it's an important 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:20.360 human health concern and I think more of us should 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:20.920 be aware of it. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:29.720 So that's why we're talking about it today. Thanks. 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.680 Trade and travel are transporting organisms all over the world. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.240 Here in Virginia. On my walk today, I came across 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.000 a variety of different species that are native to Asia 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.839 and are just absolutely ubiquitous on my property. For example, 0:00:45.880 --> 0:00:49.479 we have the Tree of Heaven, we have Japanese stilt grass, 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.040 and recently we've acquired. 0:00:51.600 --> 0:00:53.080 The spotted lantern fly. 0:00:53.600 --> 0:00:55.720 And don't get me wrong, no doubt people in Asia 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:58.520 can rattle off a list of American species that now 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:00.320 dominate their landscape as well. Well. 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:01.720 This goes both ways. 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:04.280 And it's Kelly talking here, so you've got to know 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.280 that I'm going to be bringing it back to parasites. 0:01:06.800 --> 0:01:10.000 Trade and travel are moving parasites around as well. 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:11.119 In my area. 0:01:11.240 --> 0:01:13.800 The local cattle folks are struggling with what to do 0:01:14.080 --> 0:01:18.319 about the invasive Asian longhorn tick. And on today's show, 0:01:18.319 --> 0:01:21.039 we're talking about a parasite that's spreading far and wide 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:25.080 imposes a risk to human health. In particular, that parasite 0:01:25.120 --> 0:01:28.520 is a nematode known as rat lungworm. And we have 0:01:28.560 --> 0:01:31.399 parasite expert doctor Chelsea Wood on the show today to 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.880 tell us all about it. Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:35.880 Invaded Universe. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:49.240 Hi. 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.920 I'm Daniel. I study particles and aliens. And my favorite 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:54.840 parasite is no parasite. 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:58.760 Oh, I mean I do have a favorite parasite, but 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.520 my favorite parasite is people. 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:02.080 Is no parasite. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:05.200 Yeah, I'll give you yeah, we can agree on that 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:06.160 at least. 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:06.800 Yes, yes. 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:08.240 Oh. 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.560 And I'm Kelly, Kelly Waiter Smith, who usually loves parasites. 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.000 But the parasite we're talking about today, well, I'm not a. 0:02:15.000 --> 0:02:17.360 Huge fan of It's hard to be a fan of 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:21.480 this one, especially if you like salads or California or both. 0:02:21.720 --> 0:02:24.280 That's right, that's right, And this is a parasite that 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:26.960 you know, like, it's been on my radar because we 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:31.480 grow leafy greens in Virginia on our farm, and every 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:33.040 time I see a slug or a snail, I think 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.560 to myself, how much longer before I might have to 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:37.880 worry that one of those slugs or the snails could 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.520 be transmitting a parasite to me, and in particular this 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.480 rat lune warm parasite. But the real reason we're talking 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.919 about it today is because we have two different listeners 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.720 who have asked about this parasite. One of them is 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:52.440 a man named Scott who's been working on trying to 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.240 get people in Hawaii more aware of the presence of 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:57.280 this parasite because it's pretty common there. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:02:59.239 Good on you, Scott, Good on you, Scott. 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.600 And another is Haul from New Hampshire, who is generally 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:04.760 interested in slugs and snails. 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.400 And as one is as what is well. 0:03:07.440 --> 0:03:10.560 And as y'all will notice, throughout like about a month 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.160 long period, I've been sort of sprinkling in slug and 0:03:13.200 --> 0:03:17.240 snail stories. But at the end of a listener question request, 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.200 Scott mentioned and you know, there are probably some interesting 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:25.480 parasites in snails and slugs, like rat lungworm, and so 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.000 as part of my quest to answer Paul's question, We've 0:03:29.000 --> 0:03:31.560 got a whole episode on rahet lungworm today, and at 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.640 the end we're going to give Scott some time to 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.800 tell us about what he's been working on in terms 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.000 of trying to get the word out about this parasite. 0:03:39.120 --> 0:03:41.560 And this is really valuable. I had never even heard 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:45.880 of rat lungworm until today, So despite my cringing on 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:49.000 today's episode, I do think it is valuable to learn 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:52.080 all about this. Plus, of course there are fascinating scientific 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:56.160 mysteries for those scientists among us who enjoy studying human misery. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.200 I don't know if we enjoying human misery, but would 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.800 like to understand and alleviate human misery. But so on 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:09.360 today's show, we are bringing my roommate from grad school 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:10.200 onto the show. 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:12.200 We didn't live together for all of grad school, but 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:12.680 some of it. 0:04:12.680 --> 0:04:16.200 And she has ended up being like an absolute superstar 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:18.880 in the world of parasitology. And so I was like, 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:20.680 you know what, we of course have to have Chelsea 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:22.839 on to tell everybody about rat lungworm. 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.800 And you should hear the admiration in her voice when 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:27.640 she describes these terrible creatures. 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.040 Well, let's jump right in. 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:33.119 Doctor Chelsea Wood is an Associate Professor in the School 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:36.320 of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences at the University of Washington. 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:40.200 Her research program explores the ecology of infectious disease in 0:04:40.240 --> 0:04:42.479 a changing world. And we would run out of time 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.599 if I went through all of her honors, so I'll 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:47.880 just pick two. She's been named a Sloan Research Fellow 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:51.240 and a Caveley Fellow. She is also the author of 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.720 a kid's book for kids ages eight to twelve on parasites. 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.560 That's right, you can get kids books about parasites. And 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:00.560 the book is called Power to the Parasites. Everything you 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.320 ever never wanted to know about the creepy Crawley's hidden 0:05:04.320 --> 0:05:07.279 in your home, your food, your pets, and maybe even 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:07.800 in you. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:09.000 And she has an. 0:05:08.960 --> 0:05:12.320 Adult book about parasites, which sounds a little dirtier than 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.920 I meant it to, a book about parasites that's not 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.000 meant for children, that's coming out early next year through 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:19.760 Basic Books. 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:20.159 Hashit. 0:05:20.240 --> 0:05:23.600 So welcome, Chelsea, Thank you Kelly, and thank you Daniel 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:25.600 for having me. I'm so excited to talk to you. 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:28.880 Are your books about explaining parasites or are they about 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:29.920 inducing nightmares? 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:32.360 Like a little bit from Calm a a little bit 0:05:32.360 --> 0:05:36.880 from Colomby. The hope is that the nightmares turn into dreams. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.760 I love parasites, just like Kelly, and the goal of 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:43.920 the books is to help people get to know them 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:46.159 face to face the way that we know them. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.960 And so I would love for you to explain how 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.800 you became a person who will say the words I 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.719 love parasites un ironically, like without having been you know, 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:59.960 dropped on your head multiple times. Help the audience underst 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.719 stand me better by explaining how you got here. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.800 Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone's born a parasitologist. 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.960 It's not like something kids dream about doing when they're 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.760 very little. When I was growing up, I wanted to 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.279 be a marine biologist. I wanted to swim with whales 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:20.839 and dolphins naturally, lots of people do naturally. And I 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:24.240 went to college with that intention and got through a 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:28.040 lot of my bachelor's degree planning on being a dolphin 0:06:28.040 --> 0:06:32.440 trainer whale scientist when I grew up. And then I 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.159 tried to do research while I was an undergraduate, and 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.560 I was in a college that didn't have a lot 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:40.919 of marine biology, and I didn't have a lot of 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.800 marine biology. I mean it had no marine biology. Not 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.839 the best career choice for someone who was bound and 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.400 determined to be a marine biologist. But I made the 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.159 best of it, and I worked in an engineering lab. 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:57.320 I studied lake zoplankton for a while, I ground up 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.720 bark beetles. It was all fun, but I want the dolphins, 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.960 and so I asked my academic advisor to set me 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.200 up with an internship anywhere in the world with any 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.480 marine biologists she knew, and she happened to connect me 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:13.160 with a person who used to be her office mate, 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:18.200 who was a marine biologist but also studied parasites. I 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:22.080 went into his lab just like totally grossed out, pretty 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.080 disappointed that I was going to be working on worms 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:28.760 instead of dolphins, but like a little marine biology mercenary, 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:32.480 wanting to get my foot in the door. And I 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.800 worked for him for a quarter and I fell in love. 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.240 I found that the truematodes, the flatworms that I was 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.520 working on, were just so fascinating, and it took me 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:45.800 a little while to kind of like change course, to 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:50.480 like re envision what my future would be without snuggling dolphins. 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:53.040 But now I get to snuggle worms, which is way. 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:56.400 Better way better. I mean, they don't smell good, but 0:07:56.800 --> 0:07:58.000 like dolphins don't smell. 0:07:57.760 --> 0:07:59.880 Great, you know, they don't they smell terrible. 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:02.040 Yeah, there you go. 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.040 But was your initial attraction to whales and dolphins because 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:09.080 of their dignity and their grace and the idea of 0:08:09.120 --> 0:08:11.680 like swimming alongside of them, or was it about the 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:15.040 research questions or did you then discover like, wow, I 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:18.119 want to swim alongside worms or worms have a grace 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:20.760 all of their own. I mean, is this a change 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:23.160 in you or is this a change in what you 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:23.880 were looking for? 0:08:24.680 --> 0:08:29.360 When I was interested in marine mammals, it was about 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.920 wanting to swim with them. It wasn't about the research questions. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.880 And you know, like with any scientists, you go through 0:08:35.880 --> 0:08:39.440 phases of development, and your interests mature and change, and 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:44.160 you become less attracted to the superficial beauty of an 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:49.920 organism and more attracted to the interesting questions that you 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:52.680 have about what that organism is up to in nature. 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.720 And so I underwent that evolution, and as I did, 0:08:56.960 --> 0:09:00.360 realized that the questions that were really excited to me, 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.560 we're not about whales and dolphins, but what lives inside 0:09:03.600 --> 0:09:03.960 of them. 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:07.079 And you can also swim with dolphins and whales without 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.240 being a marine biologist, right, you sure. 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.240 Can, yeah, yeah, but they don't like it. 0:09:12.360 --> 0:09:14.280 If in the middle of those like experiences that you 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:16.280 pay a bunch of money for, you like then open 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.280 the dolphin up to check its parasites, you know, they 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:18.880 crown on that. 0:09:19.120 --> 0:09:22.000 So Chelsea and I don't go to places like that. 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.640 Probably very often we're not allowed. Yeah, no, so I might. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.960 I had a similar trajectory, but it was charismatic African 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.720 megafauna that I wanted to study, but instead parasites. Way better, 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.360 way better, way better. Well, we've had quite a few 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:42.079 listeners ask about rat lungworm and I was like, all right, 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:44.960 I could cover that, but I know Chelsea has like 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.920 amazing stories about rat lungworms, so she's got to be 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.440 the one who does it for us. And so rat 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.640 lungworm it is. Let's start with, like, what kind of 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:55.680 animal is rat lungworm? 0:09:56.240 --> 0:10:00.600 Rat lung worm? Its scientific name is Angiostrongelus cantonensa, and 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.560 it is a nematode, a round worm. It's parasitic and 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:09.560 it normally cycles between snails and slugs and rodents, but 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.680 it can get into people, and that's where the trouble starts. 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:14.800 So how big is this thing or we're talking like 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.359 a super tiny little worm or like a some megaworm. 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.800 Depends on the life stage. The nematodes go through a 0:10:21.880 --> 0:10:26.800 series of molts from you know, juveniles or larvae into adults. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:29.800 The larvae are super tiny, you can only see them 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:33.840 under a microscope. The adults are quite big. You'll find them, 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:36.480 you know, if you dissect an infected mouse, for example, 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:39.200 you'll find them either in the brain tissues or in 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.720 the lungs, and they are easily visible to the naked eye, 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.199 like about the length of a thumbnail. 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.840 Yikes, how do you feel when you see that? 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.280 The first time I saw rat lungworm larvae, it was 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:57.360 like a moment in my parasitology career because I've seen 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.880 a lot of worms under the microscope, you know, dissect 0:10:59.920 --> 0:11:04.000 it and snails and fish and all kinds of different vertebrates, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.679 and like, I've seen a lot of stuff, but I 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:13.280 have never seen so many larvae as the rat lungworm 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:16.200 larvae we pulled out of some snails and slugs in 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:20.119 Honolulu a couple of years ago. It was just hundreds 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:25.720 of thousands of tiny roiling larvae. Under the microscope. You 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:29.360 could roll the stage in any direction and you'd be 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.600 going for like what felt like miles and miles a 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.880 carpet of baby nematodes. 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:37.760 It was que the nightmares. 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.320 It was staggering. I actually did dream about them for 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:45.560 a couple of days after I saw them. 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.640 And why are they called rat lungworm? Are they found 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:51.120 in the lungs of rats? So you're talking about snails 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:52.400 and slugs here, so I'm confused. 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.760 Yeah, they have a really interesting life cycle. Their larval 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:59.040 stages are in snails and slugs. The snails and slugs 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.360 get eaten by road and the larvae, which are now 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.400 in the rodent's gut, bust through the lining of the 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.720 gut and find their way into the central nervous system 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:10.280 of the rat or mouse. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:12.160 What does that feel like? Do you think bad? 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:12.520 Not? 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:12.920 Good? 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:17.080 Straightened to the point? 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:21.040 I like it. If it's anything like what humans experience, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.760 probably like fever flu like symptoms as the worms are 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.640 migrating from the gut into the central nervous system. But 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.920 then once they're in the central nervous system, they ride 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:35.000 up the spinal column and into the brain. And then 0:12:35.040 --> 0:12:40.480 they start literally consuming the brain tissue of the rodent hosts, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:46.160 burrowing holes, burrowing tunnels through the brain tissue, and they 0:12:46.200 --> 0:12:49.400 get fat on this brain tissue. Obviously, brain is really nutritious, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:51.920 so as a parasite, it's a smart place to go. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:55.679 Sorry, obviously brain is really nutritious. This is not obvious 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:57.480 to me. What is nutritious about the brain? 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:02.160 Lots of protein, lots of fats, the things that parasites 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:07.280 are looking for. And once they've finished maturing inside the brain, 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.120 they will then migrate down into the lungs of the 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:13.719 rodent host. Because they can't just hang out in one 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:15.480 rodent for the rest of their lives. They need to 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:21.080 get their babies into the outside world, so they have 0:13:21.200 --> 0:13:24.320 their larvae in the lungs of the rodent host. The 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:25.080 rodent then. 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:31.240 Coughs the larvae up wwllows them down, passages them through 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.040 the gut tract, and the larvae come out in rat poop, 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.440 which is eaten by snails or slugs, thus completing the 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:36.960 life cycle. 0:13:37.679 --> 0:13:39.679 Now I want something to crawl through my brain and 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:41.880 eat the parts of it that remember this conversation so 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.079 I don't have naemers about it. 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:47.360 Later. And is it bad for the snails and the 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.880 slugs too, because it sounds like it's pretty miserable for 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:50.400 the rats. 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.439 Great question. I don't know if anyone's ever tackled that. 0:13:53.840 --> 0:13:58.280 Ratlo worm is a pretty understudied parasite, especially with respect 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.600 to its impact on human hood. I'm not aware of 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:05.440 any studies that have looked at what impact parasitic infection 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.320 has on the snails. People are too busy worrying about 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:08.520 what's happened into the vertebrates. 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:12.040 Do they get like castrated with the trematodes or we 0:14:12.120 --> 0:14:12.720 have no idea. 0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:14.800 I don't know. They're not a castrating parasite. 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:16.800 And so you're describing a life cycle with slugs and 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:19.360 snails and then rats where they have this horrible thing 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:21.160 that goes in their brain and then in their lungs 0:14:21.160 --> 0:14:22.600 they cough it up and then it forces them to 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.040 swallow that nightmare. But it can also happen in humans, right, 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:28.000 Is there a sort of similar life cycle there, just 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:29.960 go through the human brain and into the human lungs, 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:31.400 different trajectory. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:37.120 Yeah. Wow, People accidentally or sometimes purposefully eat snails and slugs. 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:40.920 It's easier than you think because these snails and slugs 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.600 can be super tiny, and kale has lots of little 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.600 crevices in it, So if you accidentally eat one of 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:51.080 these snails or slugs, winds up in your gut, busts 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:53.400 through the gut wall, gets into the central nervous system 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:56.480 up to the brain, and then it burrows lots of tunnels. 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.960 We don't think that the parasite is capable of mature 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.520 in a human host, so we think that it either 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:07.320 does not or it has trouble getting from the brain 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.800 to the lungs. But that's kind of irrelevant from the 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.080 perspective of the patient because the real impact of infection 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.920 is on having a worm tunneling through your brain. So 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.160 people who are infected will start by experiencing flu like symptoms. 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.240 That's when the worms are moving from the gut into 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:26.400 the central nervous system, and that's the only moment when 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.960 the disease is treatable. You can get those worms with 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:33.440 an anti parasitic drug at that stage before it gets 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.400 into what we call the immune privileged site of the 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:39.760 central nervous system. Getting drugs into the central nervous system 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:43.720 is really difficult, and so treating the worms once they 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.680 get in there is essentially we can only deal with 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:49.560 the symptoms. We can't actually kill them, so flu like 0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.640 symptoms as you enter this two week period when the 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:54.960 worms are moving from the gut into the central nervous system, 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:57.960 and then literally any symptom that can be produced by 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:02.160 the brain can be produced buy these worms, depending on 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:04.360 what they decide to eat. As they're up in your 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:09.680 brain case, people describe feeling like their body's full of electricity. 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:12.920 They describe not being able to wear clothes because just 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.280 the touch of fabric on their skin is painful. They 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.800 will say that they feel like they're being stabbed or 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.960 frozen or burned. And there is literally nothing that doctors 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.200 can do for those patients other than try to manage 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.200 the inflammation that the worms are causing. 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:31.680 Doesn't it ever do anything good? I mean, brains could 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.440 also make you feel good. Is there nobody out there 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.440 who's just, like, constantly experiencing ice cream or something? 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.840 I am not aware of any reports of people constantly 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:45.120 experiencing ice cream. 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:46.840 I like your optimism, though, Daniel. 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.920 I'm struggling here, man, this is nightmare material. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.560 I kind of wish we could release your video because 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:55.040 the series of faces that you're making because the episode 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.800 goes on is pretty fantastic. But so so the doctors 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.760 can't do anything. How long does the parasite live? How 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:02.600 long does this go on? 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:05.919 We know in rats the parasite can live for years. 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.920 We don't know for sure what goes on in people. Typically, 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:16.719 the initial period of severe neurological problems can last for 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:20.919 weeks to months, and sometimes the lingering effects go on 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.199 for years. Sometimes people die. That's rare, but it does happen. 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:29.080 I have a friend here in Seattle who had rat lungworm. 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:32.439 She contracted it on a vacation on the Big Island 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.639 of Hawaii, and she got sick within days of eating 0:17:36.880 --> 0:17:39.480 a veggie wrap, which is how she thinks she was infected, 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:42.359 And it took her a couple of weeks to get diagnosed, 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:47.159 and then she was incapacitated by her infection for months. Wow. 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:51.159 She lost her ability to speak and understand speech, Her 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.760 vision was affected, her motor skills were affected. She used 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.440 a walker for a period of time, and it took 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:04.359 her years of physical fare and steroids and other drugs 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.840 to come back to some semblance of normal, and very 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:11.960 luckily she is healthy and healed. Now, But she was 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.719 infected years ago and it took her years to recover, 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.240 and that's it seems to be pretty typical. 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:20.600 And when you say recover, the brain doesn't like repair 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:24.120 those holes. You're talking about like retraining yourself to learn 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:24.639 those skills. 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:28.920 Again, I'm not sure about the neurobiology of the healing process. 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.639 I don't think those those holes get filled in. I 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:37.760 do think you retrain yourself to use the neurons and 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:41.119 synapses that remain. But you'd have to ask a neurologist 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:42.080 about the details. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:45.680 How do we figure out if somebody is infected? Is 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:47.960 it like brain scans or blood tests? 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:48.200 Yeah? 0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:49.120 How do you figure that out? 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.200 A definitive diagnosis can only be reached with a spinal 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:57.200 tap and then identification of the worms in the cerebro 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:03.360 spinal fluid. Spinal taps are not fun. They are procedures 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:08.359 that doctors really hesitate to perform unless they're in really 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.159 exigent circumstances. And even then you've got to get the 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:14.399 worms in the CSF in order to know for sure. 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:20.000 Other indicators are the proportion of eosinophils in the cerebro fluid, 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.000 the immune cells that respond to parasitic infection, and that's 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:26.479 the only way that you know for sure. It's a 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:30.760 challenging disease to diagnose because it looks like flu in 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.879 the period when it's treatable, and after that your only 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:37.720 option is to perform a spinal tap. Doctors don't have 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.760 a lot of good training on rat lungworm, and so 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:44.399 many patients go completely undiagnosed and might never know why. 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:46.840 There's some suffering from neurological symptoms. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.280 And so where is this thing native and how big 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.280 of a problem is it in its native range? 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.479 It is native to East and Southeast Asia. It was 0:19:56.480 --> 0:20:01.920 first described from China in the thirties, and while that's 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:06.359 its native range, it is now broadly distributed across the world. 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.199 It's been introduced. No sorry, sorry to report. 0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:13.520 We're going to end with some good news in this episode, 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:14.520 right right. 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:21.080 What happens when you talk to parasitologists such your expectations slow. 0:20:23.200 --> 0:20:28.800 It's now it's present all throughout the Equatorial Pacific. It's 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:33.600 in Hawaii obviously. It was first reported there in nineteen 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:36.159 sixty one, and we know it's been there since nineteen 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:40.440 fifty nine because that is when one very sick man 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:45.200 wound up in Hawaii State Mental Facility and he had 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.160 rat lung. Roman was the first patient described from Hawaii. 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:53.920 It's also in parts of Europe, Jamaica, South Africa, Brazil. 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:56.879 It's been reported from the southeastern US, and there have 0:20:56.960 --> 0:21:00.240 been human cases from the southeastern US, and the couple 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.680 of months ago it was reported for the first time 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.760 in zoo animals in San Diego. No, so now it's 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:07.560 in California. 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.720 What the last line of defensive in breached people. 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.560 That's all right, let's take a break and when we 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.520 get back, we'll talk a little bit about how this 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:17.440 parasite is getting from place to place. 0:21:37.480 --> 0:21:38.840 Okay, and we're back. 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:40.840 Daniel and I took a little bit of time to 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:44.080 try to get that yuck out and we are doing 0:21:44.160 --> 0:21:46.160 our best to not make Yeah, we're doing our best 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.879 to not make too many faces, as Chelsea describes this. 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.680 So the people who live in Hawaii must be particularly 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:54.639 frustrated to have this parasite because they also didn't originally 0:21:54.680 --> 0:21:57.320 have rats, right, and so like, how much of this 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.560 system has been introduced into Hawaii and like how did 0:22:01.560 --> 0:22:02.160 it get there? 0:22:02.560 --> 0:22:07.400 Almost all of it rodents are not native to Hawaii. 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.600 The Polynesian rat was introduced by Polynesian voyagers about eleven 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:16.880 hundred years ago, and then European colonists introduced the black rat, 0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:20.400 dorway rat, and house mouse. So those rodents are now 0:22:20.440 --> 0:22:24.439 all extremely common across the Hawaiian islands. Most of the 0:22:24.480 --> 0:22:28.280 snails and slugs that are host to rat lungworm are 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.760 also non native to Hawaii. Oh, come on, and the 0:22:32.760 --> 0:22:39.199 word non native. Yeah, it is an entirely novel ecosystem 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.919 that's been assembled to support the transmission of this parasite. 0:22:43.359 --> 0:22:45.240 And you said it was first described in the thirties, 0:22:45.280 --> 0:22:47.480 but it must have been around a long time, right. 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.840 Yeah, this is this worm isn't new. It has evolved 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:57.720 from a large tree of other nematodes. And while we 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:00.639 obviously don't want to be infected by it, it is 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:05.000 natural and normal in East and Southeast Asia. What's not 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:06.720 natural or normal is the fact that it's now been 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:08.840 imported into ecosystems all around the world. 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:12.760 And so if you live in Southeast Asia, are people 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.000 just regularly getting like is it as big a problem 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:18.360 in its native range as it is in like Hawaii, 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:19.400 for example. 0:23:19.560 --> 0:23:21.560 It doesn't appear to be. And this is this is 0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.199 a frontier area of research, so you know, this is 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.480 something that we still have some uncertainty about. We think 0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:34.280 that early life exposure to the worms protects against catastrophic 0:23:34.320 --> 0:23:38.800 infection later in life. So people who have no exposure 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.280 to rat lungworm and then suddenly get a big dose 0:23:41.320 --> 0:23:43.239 of it are the ones who are winding up with 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.679 really severe neurological problems. But this is this is an 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:52.000 emerging area of research, and that's not a solidified hypothesis yet. 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:54.960 How would that work? Your immune system is somehow trained, 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:58.280 and then when they're burrowing through your body looking for 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:02.560 the brain, they get attacked by the immune system precisely. Yeah, wow, gosh. 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:04.280 So I can imagine maybe one day there'd be like 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:07.800 a vaccine before you go to Hawaii, or a vaccine 0:24:07.800 --> 0:24:10.119 for everybody living in Hawaii, which would at least make 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:10.879 it less bad. 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.280 If we could develop a vaccine against a. 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:16.159 Worm, yeah, right, which we haven't done yet, right. I 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:18.280 know they're working on it for hookworm, but we've not 0:24:18.359 --> 0:24:19.800 had any success, right, not yet. 0:24:19.960 --> 0:24:21.240 But remind me, and I know we did a whole 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:24.240 episode on why it's hard to get vaccines from parasites, 0:24:24.520 --> 0:24:26.639 But this is something where your immune system can be 0:24:26.720 --> 0:24:30.920 trained to respond. What's the challenge in developing the vaccine? 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.520 Okay, I don't develop vaccines, so I'm way out of 0:24:34.520 --> 0:24:36.399 my depth here, and Kelly, you should step in and 0:24:36.400 --> 0:24:40.320 correct me. My understanding is that worms are so closely 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:44.480 related to us that biochemically we have so many similarities 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.200 that things that hurt them also hurt us. And that's 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.439 why it's just logistically much more challenging to develop a 0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:54.919 vaccine without unacceptable side effects for a worm relative to 0:24:54.960 --> 0:24:56.320 something like a virus. 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:58.520 We had John Howden on the show and he talked 0:24:58.520 --> 0:25:00.280 about this for like an hour, and he he said 0:25:00.280 --> 0:25:01.800 a lot of what you said. He also said that 0:25:01.840 --> 0:25:03.880 part of the problem is just that, like worms are 0:25:03.920 --> 0:25:07.320 really big, and like nema toads for example, the outside 0:25:07.359 --> 0:25:09.840 of them has this like you know, hard outer coating, 0:25:09.920 --> 0:25:11.439 and so it's hard for the immune system to do 0:25:11.560 --> 0:25:14.040 much of anything to them. And so you have to 0:25:14.080 --> 0:25:15.399 try to find a way to, like I don't know, 0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.440 get inside of the nematod and then attack it from within. 0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.600 And it's just really complicated for lots of reasons. 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.040 But the immune system knows how to do it. Because 0:25:24.200 --> 0:25:27.600 in Southeast Asia, people who are exposed as children have protection. 0:25:27.920 --> 0:25:30.400 I'm just reaching here for some optimism. 0:25:30.520 --> 0:25:33.760 Help me out, mate, Let's go with maybe, which is 0:25:33.760 --> 0:25:35.960 about Does that seem reasonable? 0:25:36.040 --> 0:25:36.600 Chelsea? 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:39.480 The solution to worms is more worms? 0:25:40.720 --> 0:25:43.199 No, we need more worms to eat these worms? Is 0:25:43.200 --> 0:25:43.800 that what you're saying? 0:25:44.080 --> 0:25:47.720 No more worms for us earlier in life to provide 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:52.720 immune protection against later catastrophic infection. I'm not actually advocating 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:54.040 for this, by the way, No one go out and 0:25:54.080 --> 0:25:54.879 get worms. 0:25:55.400 --> 0:25:57.720 Do not take medical advice from this show. But maybe 0:25:57.760 --> 0:25:58.920 take your baby to Hawaii? 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:04.000 So how is this changing the lives of people who 0:26:04.119 --> 0:26:08.520 live in Hawaii? Has it changed their diet? What is yeah? 0:26:08.800 --> 0:26:09.639 What are their lives like? 0:26:09.920 --> 0:26:13.600 Well, public health outreach about rat lungworm is pretty minimal 0:26:13.760 --> 0:26:16.600 in Hawaii, so a lot of people are totally unaware 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:19.880 that it's being transmitted locally, that it's a risk. There's 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:25.080 a tremendous amount of agriculture locally in Hawaii because otherwise 0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:28.240 food needs to transit over these huge distances in order 0:26:28.280 --> 0:26:31.240 to reach the Hawaiian islands. So there's lots of lettuce 0:26:31.320 --> 0:26:34.080 and kale and other leafy greens being grown locally that 0:26:34.119 --> 0:26:36.639 people are eating without any awareness that there could be 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:39.760 snails or slugs that represent a risk to them. That's 0:26:39.760 --> 0:26:43.240 a problem. People who are aware are trying to be careful, 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:46.560 but there's only so much you can do. And actually 0:26:47.040 --> 0:26:49.959 I met one patient who is also a professor at 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:53.960 the University of Hawaii, Manoa. She's an ecologist. She was 0:26:54.040 --> 0:26:57.399 aware of rat lungworm when she went to a farmer's 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:00.800 market and bought kale, and she washed it very thoroughly, 0:27:00.840 --> 0:27:04.560 and nonetheless, she was infected and nearly died of her infection, 0:27:04.800 --> 0:27:07.960 was hospitalized for a month and still suffers the after 0:27:08.000 --> 0:27:11.600 effects of her infection. Wow. So people try, but there 0:27:11.680 --> 0:27:15.679 are limits. You can't check every kale crevice. There's no 0:27:15.800 --> 0:27:19.960 way to ensure that your leafy greens are completely safe. 0:27:20.200 --> 0:27:24.760 What if we irradiate the kale particle physics to the rescue. 0:27:25.400 --> 0:27:27.080 I'll leave that to you, Daniel. That can be your 0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:27.720 next project. 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:31.239 Bring your salad to the large hadron collider and I 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:32.520 will kill those worms. 0:27:34.080 --> 0:27:36.480 We And you mentioned, you know, like someone had a 0:27:36.600 --> 0:27:40.320 veggie wrap and in some writing of yours that I'm 0:27:40.320 --> 0:27:44.040 familiar with that folks can find in early twenty twenty seven, 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:46.320 like you mentioned that you can get it in a smoothie, 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:48.480 Like you know, you put like kale in a smoothie, 0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:50.120 you don't even think about it, and now you've got 0:27:50.520 --> 0:27:53.760 parasites that way. Like, there's so many different routes that 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:55.840 you might not even think about to get it, which 0:27:55.880 --> 0:27:57.720 is why none of us are going to sleep tonight. 0:27:57.920 --> 0:28:00.719 And why we're never getting kale advertisers after this episode. 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:04.000 Yeah, that's right, Big kale is gonna shun us. 0:28:05.080 --> 0:28:08.359 Oh wait, so you went to Hawaii to meet people 0:28:08.359 --> 0:28:10.560 who study this and to like sort of find out 0:28:10.560 --> 0:28:11.840 what it's like for people in Hawaii. 0:28:12.080 --> 0:28:14.080 And so you and I when we. 0:28:14.160 --> 0:28:16.680 Used to be roommates, we'd go out for sushi and 0:28:16.720 --> 0:28:19.600 you would eat all kinds of sushi, right, so you 0:28:19.640 --> 0:28:21.800 don't seem like a kind of person who is worried 0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:25.760 about parasites in their food, although I know sushi's usually 0:28:25.760 --> 0:28:31.040 frozen beforehand, But like, did this change your eating habits 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:33.000 when you were in an area where you knew that 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:33.440 it was. 0:28:33.560 --> 0:28:37.280 One hundred percent There's a big difference between going out 0:28:37.320 --> 0:28:40.280 for sushi and eating a salad. In Hawaiian rat lung 0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:47.320 worom is a catastrophic infection, potentially life ending, certainly life altering. 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:50.040 It is not a parasite that I would touch with 0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.320 a ten foot pole. It's very, very dangerous and probably 0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:56.160 you know, of all the parasites that I have encountered 0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:58.400 in my career, the one I at least like to 0:28:58.400 --> 0:28:59.520 be infected with myself. 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:03.280 You have a ranking like most to leave, I sure do. 0:29:03.680 --> 0:29:07.240 Wow, where is loa looa? 0:29:08.000 --> 0:29:10.760 I would one hundred percent take loo looa? Absolutely? 0:29:12.040 --> 0:29:13.080 What's a loaaloa? 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:13.680 Oh? 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:16.480 That was We did the list of the three parasites 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:19.520 that creep Kelly out the most, and loa loa was 0:29:19.560 --> 0:29:22.360 on there because it moves around the inside of your 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:24.240 eye and people can see it moving in your eye. 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:26.640 And I thought that was pretty gross, But. 0:29:26.560 --> 0:29:27.800 That sounds cool to you, Chelsea. 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:32.959 It's gross for sure, but it's really low pathogenicity. You know, 0:29:32.960 --> 0:29:37.600 there's very few effects of being infected with looaloa. And 0:29:37.640 --> 0:29:39.640 then you get to like have a little pet that 0:29:39.680 --> 0:29:40.840 you keep with you all the time. 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.640 You're never alone, never alone. 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:48.960 So what do we know about how this parasite gets 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.000 from one place to another? Like do we know how 0:29:51.000 --> 0:29:53.880 it got to Hawaii or how it got to Louisiana? 0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:57.320 We have no idea how it got to Hawaii, which 0:29:57.360 --> 0:30:00.560 is a question that I find really interesting because there 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:05.400 are several very different potential answers. It seems pretty likely 0:30:05.480 --> 0:30:08.840 that it could have arrived from Southeast Asia during World 0:30:08.920 --> 0:30:11.400 War II or the Korean War, because there was a 0:30:11.440 --> 0:30:16.000 tremendous amount of movement of material between those regions, and 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.720 we know that rodents came and went. It's also possible 0:30:19.760 --> 0:30:21.760 that snails and slugs came and went in things like 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:24.760 tires or vehicles that were being moved from one place 0:30:24.760 --> 0:30:28.240 to the next, so that's really reasonable. But it's also 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:33.040 entirely possible that the parazite arrived with Polynesian rats when 0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:37.240 they were introduced eleven hundred years ago by Polynesian voyagers. 0:30:37.720 --> 0:30:42.440 So those are two very different answers that question. And 0:30:42.480 --> 0:30:46.920 I find it really interesting that we don't know how 0:30:46.960 --> 0:30:51.120 it arrived, given how much impact it's had, and how 0:30:51.720 --> 0:30:55.360 that information would really help us better understand how to 0:30:55.400 --> 0:30:58.479 move materials responsibly across the face of the moving forward, 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:00.560 given that we don't want rat long room to continue 0:31:00.600 --> 0:31:02.160 to expand in its range. 0:31:02.560 --> 0:31:04.320 Can I ask a question about that comment you made. 0:31:04.720 --> 0:31:08.880 You said that Polynesians introduced Polynesian rats where the Polynesian 0:31:08.960 --> 0:31:11.560 ships large enough for the rats to hide on them, 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:13.840 or intentional that I. 0:31:13.840 --> 0:31:16.080 Don't I don't know whether it was intentional or not, 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:19.120 but I've always just assumed that they were still always 0:31:19.280 --> 0:31:20.160 like in any other ship. 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:25.600 Wow, because in Moana it's just a raft. That's why 0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:26.320 it's confusing. 0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:29.400 Kelly is revealing the depth of my research on this topic. Yes, 0:31:31.080 --> 0:31:33.320 I've actually had rats in the home, so thank you 0:31:33.440 --> 0:31:35.400 very much. I have a little bit of experience. I'm 0:31:35.400 --> 0:31:38.960 grateful they didn't have rat lungworm though, hopefully. 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:39.760 Yeah. 0:31:39.800 --> 0:31:43.880 So now when you travel to other parts of the world, 0:31:44.240 --> 0:31:47.560 like I don't know it's in Louisiana and Florida, for example, 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.080 do you like, are you totally off salads now? 0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:50.800 Is what I'm asking? 0:31:51.880 --> 0:31:54.320 How do you how do you balance this risk when 0:31:54.320 --> 0:31:55.200 you go from place to place. 0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:59.120 I'm really really careful about fresh leafy greens when I 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:01.959 travel in a place that has rat lungworm. I did 0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:05.360 not eat anything green while I was in Hawaii. The 0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:09.600 only exception is I was hanging out with Rob Cowie, 0:32:09.640 --> 0:32:13.560 who's a malacologist a snail researcher at the University of 0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:17.040 Hawaii and one of the folks there who's studying rat lungworm, 0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:20.520 and he had my husband and me over for dinner 0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:24.440 one night and served us a salad. And I looked 0:32:24.440 --> 0:32:26.600 at him and I was like, you have to be joking. 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.560 I am literally here to study rat lung worm with you, Like, 0:32:30.960 --> 0:32:32.840 there's no way you're feeding me this right now. And 0:32:32.880 --> 0:32:35.760 he's like, no, no, no, it's totally it's fine. I know 0:32:35.840 --> 0:32:38.160 that this lettuce came from California, so I know that 0:32:38.240 --> 0:32:40.240 it's safe, so you can eat it and it's okay. 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:42.760 And so I was like, all right, you're the expert. 0:32:43.320 --> 0:32:45.880 Put some salad on my plate, passed it down the 0:32:45.920 --> 0:32:50.120 table to another dinner guest, Vernon Ansdell, who's a physician 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:54.280 and rat lungworm expert in Hawaii based in Honolulu, and 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:57.080 he took that bowl and passed it right on down 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.400 the table without giving himself any salad. And I just 0:33:01.320 --> 0:33:04.000 I like was internally panicking. I didn't want to be 0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:06.640 rude and not eat the salad, so I ate it. 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:09.800 Oh and then I didn't sleep for a couple of 0:33:09.880 --> 0:33:10.480 days after that. 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:11.520 Yeah. 0:33:11.640 --> 0:33:14.920 Yeah, So anyway, I'm very careful about green things when 0:33:14.920 --> 0:33:18.600 I'm in Hawaii, except for when Rob tricks me into 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:22.600 eating a salad. Not cool, it's not cool. 0:33:22.720 --> 0:33:26.280 Wow, you're peer pressured into parasite roulette there. That's terrifying. 0:33:27.680 --> 0:33:31.400 And then you know, in the southeastern US, yeah, I 0:33:31.440 --> 0:33:35.040 avoid leafy greens, especially local ones. The reality is that 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:38.480 the vast majority of salad that is eaten in North 0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:43.280 America comes from the Central Valley of California. So so 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:47.360 far that's safe. And that means that salads that you 0:33:47.400 --> 0:33:51.120 eat anywhere in North America are probably from California and 0:33:51.160 --> 0:33:54.440 therefore safe. But to me, it's you know, I'll gamble 0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:56.640 with a lot of different parasites. I eat sushi because 0:33:56.680 --> 0:33:59.000 I don't care if I get sushi worm. It's fine. 0:33:59.400 --> 0:34:00.280 It's worth it to me, And. 0:34:00.360 --> 0:34:03.040 Eat sushi might even be kind of awesome. 0:34:03.000 --> 0:34:04.320 Might even be kind of awesome. 0:34:05.440 --> 0:34:08.680 I mean, if you could collect it somehow. All right, Sorry, 0:34:08.680 --> 0:34:10.560 maybe not. Maybe it's just me speaking alone here. 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:14.680 No, no, you're not at all. I mean. And a psychidosis, 0:34:14.719 --> 0:34:19.640 which is sushi worm disease, not fun, vomiting, diarrhea, abdominal pain. 0:34:20.080 --> 0:34:23.160 In really severe cases, you're hospitalized and they have to 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.880 do an endoscopy to actually visualize and remove the worm. 0:34:26.440 --> 0:34:30.480 Would that be cool? It knows I wouldn't enjoy it 0:34:30.520 --> 0:34:33.480 in the moment. Would I love to have a picture 0:34:33.719 --> 0:34:36.440 of a worm from my own gut? 0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:36.880 Also? 0:34:37.000 --> 0:34:38.719 No, yep, not gonna lie. 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:39.800 It would be pretty amazing. 0:34:40.160 --> 0:34:41.279 Yeah, that would be pretty cool. 0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:44.040 No, it would not be pretty amazing. Wow, this is 0:34:44.040 --> 0:34:45.960 a real litmus test for people's personality. 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:48.799 I think I'd rather have a tapeworm though, absolutely like that. 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:50.000 I'd rather collect a tapeworm. 0:34:50.040 --> 0:34:50.720 Yeah, no question. 0:34:51.320 --> 0:34:53.759 Okay, so you don't worry about salads because most of 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.040 the salads have come from central California, but you pay 0:34:57.080 --> 0:34:59.840 attention to where you're going and you change your behavior accordingly. 0:34:59.840 --> 0:35:01.920 With that be a reasonable summary. 0:35:01.680 --> 0:35:04.719 Yeah, I don't eat salad in Hawaii. I wouldn't eat 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.800 leafy greens that are uncooked in East or Southeast Asia, 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:12.640 and I'd be cognizant of it in the southeastern US, 0:35:12.800 --> 0:35:16.520 where salads are most likely sourced from California, but could 0:35:16.520 --> 0:35:17.560 be from local creams. 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:20.520 So you're saying, if somebody served you two salads, one 0:35:20.560 --> 0:35:23.319 grown in California and one grown in Virginia, you would 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:24.440 eat the California salad. 0:35:24.680 --> 0:35:26.000 So far, Virginia's Okay. 0:35:27.160 --> 0:35:30.560 Yeah, so Daniel and I have a California verus Virginia 0:35:30.640 --> 0:35:32.760 thing going on and he was trying to catch. 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.600 Yeah. Okay, so it's called rat lungwarm. 0:35:37.600 --> 0:35:39.760 But you've already mentioned that it can get into mice, 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:43.120 and now we know it can get into people. So 0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:47.919 as it gets introduced throughout the world, are there other 0:35:48.280 --> 0:35:51.520 animal brains it's eating, like other than humans and mice 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:53.640 and rats? Like, how bad is this for like the 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:54.719 rest of the ecosystem. 0:35:54.960 --> 0:35:57.880 Yeah, any mammal can be infected and suffer some of 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:02.200 the same effects as pea bull and rats. In Hawaii, 0:36:02.440 --> 0:36:06.919 there are lots of veterinary reports of paralyzed dogs who 0:36:07.160 --> 0:36:09.840 experience that paralysis as a result of ratlung room infection. 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:15.480 Horses too, And often our reports of ratlung room from 0:36:15.760 --> 0:36:21.120 the continental US are from zoo animals, and that's because 0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:27.400 they're highly observed by really well trained veterinarians and they're bored, 0:36:27.560 --> 0:36:29.839 and so if a snail or a slug comes into 0:36:29.840 --> 0:36:33.560 their enclosure, they're likely to eat it, touch it, mouth it, 0:36:33.719 --> 0:36:37.879 and become infected themselves. The reports from California that came 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:40.560 out of San Diego recently were from zoo animals. 0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:43.160 All right, well, let's take a break bit of a 0:36:43.200 --> 0:36:46.840 palate cleanser again, and when we get back, we'll do 0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:49.080 our best to see if we can find some sort 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:52.520 of positive angle to end on for Daniel, and we'll 0:36:52.520 --> 0:37:15.800 see where that gets us. And we're back. We're talking 0:37:15.800 --> 0:37:19.880 about the spread of rat lungworm and so, Chelsea, you 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.160 said something about how if we knew how it got 0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:26.000 from place to place, there would be something we could 0:37:26.040 --> 0:37:31.839 do about it. Are there inroads for ways we can 0:37:31.960 --> 0:37:35.680 keep it from spreading to places that it hasn't gotten 0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:36.120 to yet. 0:37:36.600 --> 0:37:39.880 Yeah, So we've talked about war and how war moves 0:37:40.000 --> 0:37:42.920 materials over these large spans of space and can bring 0:37:43.120 --> 0:37:46.160 animals that are from one place to another. We haven't 0:37:46.320 --> 0:37:50.240 talked about yet is trade, and the trade in horticultural 0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:53.160 products is thought to be one of the pathways by 0:37:53.200 --> 0:38:00.280 which the worm has made it into the southeastern US. Trees, shrubs, 0:38:00.480 --> 0:38:04.840 herbaceous plants come in soil. Snails and slugs can be 0:38:04.920 --> 0:38:08.759 in soil, and that is one pathway by which the 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:11.760 parasite is transported from one part of the world to another. 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:15.640 The trade and horticultural products is regulated and of course 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:19.080 people are trying to prevent the spread of invasive snails 0:38:19.080 --> 0:38:24.400 and slugs themselves, but our screening procedures are not perfect. 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:30.880 Better protections on how biological materials are moved across national 0:38:30.920 --> 0:38:34.480 boundaries would reduce the likelihood that the worm is going 0:38:34.520 --> 0:38:35.760 to make it into new places. 0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:39.600 But if you can't even rinse scale and inspect it 0:38:39.800 --> 0:38:42.240 in your own sink and be confident that there's nothing 0:38:42.280 --> 0:38:44.760 in there, how could inspectors check every plant? 0:38:45.080 --> 0:38:45.919 I don't think they can. 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:52.080 Okay, And once it gets established somewhere, is there any 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:53.080 hope of kicking it out? 0:38:53.600 --> 0:38:57.680 It depends on where you are. Eradicating rats and mice 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:04.319 is famously difficult, not possible, except in small areas or 0:39:04.360 --> 0:39:08.600 on small islands. There are some islands where rats have 0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:12.880 been introduced and later eradicated. It costs a ton of 0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:14.680 money and it takes a ton of effort, but it 0:39:14.719 --> 0:39:18.719 is possible. But if we're talking like an area of 0:39:18.760 --> 0:39:22.120 a large land mass, getting rid of rats or mice 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:25.480 or snails or slugs is really just not practical. The 0:39:25.520 --> 0:39:28.320 best intervention is to make sure that people are taking 0:39:28.400 --> 0:39:33.600 measures to protect themselves and that the food supply is protected. 0:39:33.719 --> 0:39:36.759 Okay, Yeah, that was the most positive we were able 0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:37.239 to come up with. 0:39:37.680 --> 0:39:40.359 Sorry, because I am not a beam of light here, 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:43.239 and I have to hammer on that a little bit. 0:39:43.440 --> 0:39:46.879 You're saying protect themselves, but again, what can we do 0:39:46.960 --> 0:39:49.480 to protect ourselves other than not eat salads? 0:39:49.800 --> 0:39:54.040 By let us from places that are safe? Californian let 0:39:54.160 --> 0:39:58.120 us so far is both the easiest to get and 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:04.160 the safest. All of your leafy greens extremely thoroughly. Inspect 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:07.480 those greens very carefully. If you live in an endemic 0:40:07.520 --> 0:40:10.920 region and you're growing your own greens, what I'd recommend 0:40:11.120 --> 0:40:14.040 is like filling up a sink with water and letting 0:40:14.160 --> 0:40:17.440 the lettuce soak for an hour or so so that 0:40:17.600 --> 0:40:20.920 any snails or slugs that are on it are dislodged 0:40:21.239 --> 0:40:24.160 and you can see them more easily, and then rinsing 0:40:24.200 --> 0:40:27.799 it really really carefully and inspecting all the crevices. And 0:40:27.880 --> 0:40:32.840 it also means protecting kids from their own curiosity. A 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:36.279 lot of pediatric rat lung worm cases in Hawaii are 0:40:36.360 --> 0:40:39.080 kids who were playing in the backyard and picked up 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:42.759 a snail or slug, mouthed it or even just handled it, 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.560 and then put their hands in their mouths. So watching 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.600 over kids, especially in places where rat lungworm is known 0:40:48.640 --> 0:40:51.880 to be transmitted when they're playing in nature or in 0:40:51.920 --> 0:40:52.520 the backyard. 0:40:53.000 --> 0:40:55.640 So this doesn't seem very helpful. I mean, in five 0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.560 years and twenty years, in fifty years, is rat lung 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.200 worm just going to be everywhere? Is care free eating 0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:04.239 of salads just going to be a historical anecdote. 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:07.560 I might have answered this question differently a couple of 0:41:07.560 --> 0:41:12.319 months ago. It's a subtropical parasite, and I would have 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:16.719 expected it to remain only in regions that are very 0:41:16.800 --> 0:41:19.360 warm and very moist. It made sense to me that 0:41:19.400 --> 0:41:21.480 it would wind up in the southeastern US. It's like, 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:27.080 well within the bounds of the humidity and temperature that 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:30.000 the parasite evolved in. The fact that it showed up 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:33.200 in San Diego is upsetting, yes, because that is a 0:41:33.320 --> 0:41:38.160 very different habitat than where the parasite has been found before. 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:42.399 And we don't know whether this is really limited or not. 0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:44.759 Like the first report from San Diego only came in 0:41:44.800 --> 0:41:46.719 a few months ago, so we don't know the full 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:49.920 picture yet. But the fact that it shows up in 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:54.240 a place that seems to be outside of the envelope 0:41:54.480 --> 0:41:58.320 of environments that it's previously been known to in habit. 0:41:59.120 --> 0:42:01.560 Kind of blows up my expectations about where we should 0:42:01.600 --> 0:42:02.840 expect to see it in the future. 0:42:03.520 --> 0:42:06.319 So, what are the lessons from rat lungworm for what 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:10.480 we should expect regarding other parasites spreading around the world, Like, 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:13.320 is rat lungworm the only parasite that's spreading around the 0:42:13.320 --> 0:42:14.920 world or is this happening with a lot of different 0:42:14.960 --> 0:42:16.120 kinds of parasites right now? 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:18.880 The answer is all over the map, you know, parasite. 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:20.840 When we say the word parasite, we're talking about this 0:42:20.920 --> 0:42:26.960 like sprawling tree of life. Parasitism has evolved two hundred 0:42:27.000 --> 0:42:31.839 and twenty three independent times across the animal tree of life. Wow, 0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:34.160 that's two hundred and twenty three times when a free 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:38.960 living ancestor gave rise to a parasitic branch. And that 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:42.600 means that there's this like crazy amount of diversity among 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:45.920 the parasites. They're not a monolith. They're all doing different stuff. 0:42:46.360 --> 0:42:50.239 Rat lungworm is a great poster child for those parasites 0:42:50.239 --> 0:42:54.120 that are benefiting from global change. We're like moving stuff 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:57.000 all around the world, and rat lungworm is the beneficiary 0:42:57.120 --> 0:42:59.360 of all of that movement. It's not the only one. 0:42:59.400 --> 0:43:02.440 There are lots of parasites that are similarly well positioned 0:43:02.480 --> 0:43:04.480 to take advantage of the fact that we've now connected 0:43:04.480 --> 0:43:08.840 these really far flung places. But there are other parasites 0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:12.600 that are doing the exact opposite thing. We don't pay 0:43:12.600 --> 0:43:16.399 attention to them because they're not causing outbreaks, right, They're 0:43:16.440 --> 0:43:19.720 not increasing in abundance, and so we have no reason 0:43:19.880 --> 0:43:24.040 to encounter them. But they are quietly diminishing, sometimes even 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:27.280 to extinction. And that's the other side of the coin 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:30.280 that we never see because it doesn't affect us personally. 0:43:31.000 --> 0:43:34.720 And that seems like a perfect segue into the amazing 0:43:34.719 --> 0:43:36.680 book that you wrote. Do you want to tell us 0:43:36.680 --> 0:43:39.319 a bit about it so that folks can immediately go 0:43:39.400 --> 0:43:42.040 pre order it after listening to this episode. 0:43:42.640 --> 0:43:44.320 If this was a nightmares. 0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:47.600 Enough, yeah, there are actually a lot more nightmares in 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:51.360 nether world. The Genius of Parasites, which is the book 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:53.200 that I've been working on for the past couple of years, 0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:55.200 which is due to come out on the sixteenth of 0:43:55.239 --> 0:43:59.080 February twenty twenty seven. Pre Orders should open in mid June. 0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:03.880 This book is kind of the culmination of my career 0:44:03.920 --> 0:44:06.839 to date in parasitology. It's what I've learned about the 0:44:06.880 --> 0:44:11.080 future of parasitism. It's my answer to the question is 0:44:11.120 --> 0:44:15.560 the world getting wormier or not? And yeah, the book 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:19.440 is about how global change is influencing parasites, whether we 0:44:19.480 --> 0:44:24.080 should expect in the future more parasite outbreaks or fewer 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:28.480 parasites in general. And the upshot is these parasites are 0:44:28.520 --> 0:44:31.000 just so diverse there's no reason to expect them all 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:33.960 to do the same thing. And the book covers many 0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:38.840 examples of parasitic outbreaks like rat lungworm and many others, 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:40.920 but it also looks at the other side of that 0:44:41.040 --> 0:44:46.800 coin and investigates those parasites that are diminishing even into extinction, 0:44:47.520 --> 0:44:50.120 and asks the question why and does it matter? 0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:53.400 Should we care and can we do that to rat lungworm. 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:57.960 After we wrap up this episode, folks should stay tuned 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:00.680 because one of the listeners who reached out to us 0:45:00.960 --> 0:45:02.960 is a man named Scott who is actually working on 0:45:03.000 --> 0:45:06.120 trying to get people in Hawaii aware of rat lungworm. 0:45:06.200 --> 0:45:07.960 So he's like part of a group that's working on that. 0:45:08.000 --> 0:45:09.759 So we're going to give him some time to tell 0:45:09.800 --> 0:45:12.239 us about what he's been working on. But before we 0:45:12.360 --> 0:45:15.439 let you go, I want to know what is your 0:45:15.560 --> 0:45:19.080 favorite parasite, And if it's not rat lungworm, what is 0:45:19.120 --> 0:45:20.440 the creepiest parasite? 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:24.760 Oh boy, you're like asking me to choose amongst my children. 0:45:25.160 --> 0:45:27.840 I know now. I knew it was not an easy question. 0:45:28.040 --> 0:45:28.879 I knew, I. 0:45:28.920 --> 0:45:34.160 Really I have a lot of favorite parasites, but the 0:45:34.200 --> 0:45:38.120 most beautiful, in my opinion, are the tapeworms in the 0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:42.200 order tripinnerenka. And I really love these worms. We come 0:45:42.239 --> 0:45:46.000 across them a lot in our coral reef Fish project. 0:45:46.360 --> 0:45:48.839 We dissect lots of coral reefishes and we find these 0:45:48.880 --> 0:45:53.040 parasites as larvae. And I love them because they are 0:45:54.120 --> 0:45:58.759 set up perfectly for life inside of a slippery shark gut. 0:46:00.040 --> 0:46:04.440 Imagine yourself inside a shark gut. It's dark, it's slippery, 0:46:04.440 --> 0:46:07.759 there's this never ending tide of poop that's trying to 0:46:07.880 --> 0:46:10.360 sweep you out of the gut and into the environment. 0:46:10.440 --> 0:46:14.359 And you don't want that. No, The trepennaynks avoid that 0:46:14.600 --> 0:46:18.359 by having these like four tentacles that are on their 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:21.799 head end, which we call skolex, and the tentacles are 0:46:21.840 --> 0:46:24.440 retractable so they can have them kind of like coiled 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.960 up inside of their head, and whenever they wish, they 0:46:28.040 --> 0:46:33.239 can eject those tentacles. Each one is armed with thousands 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:38.239 of backward facing hooks. So those tentacles, Daniel. 0:46:38.560 --> 0:46:41.200 Daniel, this is so fascinating, Daniel, and I are having 0:46:41.440 --> 0:46:43.360 diametric responses right now. 0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:43.879 This is. 0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:47.920 All right. I can handle it. I can handle it. 0:46:48.000 --> 0:46:49.800 Go ahead, you got this, Daniel. 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:53.799 It's shooting these tentacles out of its head, all. 0:46:53.760 --> 0:46:57.359 Right, it's shooting tentacles out of its head. They lay 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:00.960 those tentacles down on the intestinal a of the shark, 0:47:01.360 --> 0:47:04.000 dig in the hooks, and then retract them back into 0:47:04.040 --> 0:47:07.520 their heads so that they're firmly anchored on the shark's 0:47:07.520 --> 0:47:09.279 gut wall. And they are. 0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:10.400 That's amazing. 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:14.200 They're amazing. They're also just so beautiful because those tentacles 0:47:14.239 --> 0:47:17.520 are like curly cued, kind of like the illustrations in 0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:20.120 the margins of a medieval manuscript. You know, all those 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:21.920 like really elaborate ornaments. 0:47:22.040 --> 0:47:22.320 M h. 0:47:22.600 --> 0:47:25.160 And they've got all these hooks that refract light when 0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:28.239 you see them under a microscope. So just like imagine 0:47:28.480 --> 0:47:32.480 like a bedazzled medieval manuscript and you've got an idea 0:47:32.760 --> 0:47:36.919 of what the trapen ranks look like. They're just gorgeous. 0:47:37.080 --> 0:47:40.400 I love the thought of them swimming around with a 0:47:40.400 --> 0:47:43.960 bunch of sharks, traveling hundreds of miles, with their hosts 0:47:44.600 --> 0:47:48.120 using these incredibly like well adapted tentacles to get what 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:50.640 they want in the world. I just every time I 0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:52.080 see one, it's a really special moment. 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:54.640 I can imagine I'd love to see one in person. 0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:55.319 Come visit. 0:47:55.760 --> 0:47:59.359 Okay, you speak of this parasite admiringly, but you also 0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:02.759 call it beautiful. Are you really thinking it's like attractive? 0:48:02.800 --> 0:48:05.320 I mean, we you like wear as a piece of jewelry, 0:48:05.680 --> 0:48:08.719 or are you just like impressed by its ingenuity and 0:48:08.760 --> 0:48:13.640 its ferociousness? She nearly has one on her finger? All right, 0:48:14.000 --> 0:48:15.080 all right, right, there we go. 0:48:16.000 --> 0:48:19.759 It's a different kind of parasite. But yes, right, yeah, 0:48:20.000 --> 0:48:23.080 it's the haplesson you diplas on. Yeah, those are two 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.920 trematodes that are permanently connected to each other. 0:48:26.120 --> 0:48:28.440 Nice monogenes actually monogens. 0:48:28.480 --> 0:48:31.240 Oh no, I've been embarrassed in public. 0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:35.520 All right, but I'm feeling like we should probably not 0:48:35.600 --> 0:48:39.160 get to a creepy parasite. Given Daniel's face, when we 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:43.239 were talking about the most beautiful parasite, and so I 0:48:43.280 --> 0:48:46.520 think maybe we should call it quits here and bid 0:48:46.560 --> 0:48:47.280 you farewell. 0:48:48.000 --> 0:48:49.799 Thank you so much for coming on the show. This 0:48:49.920 --> 0:48:50.640 was amazing. 0:48:50.800 --> 0:48:53.640 Folks should go out and pre order Nether World. This 0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:56.000 episode is coming out after the pre orders go live, 0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:57.759 so you can all go and do that right now, 0:48:57.840 --> 0:48:59.920 and when the book comes out, we will have Chelsea 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:02.800 back to talk more about parasites and their future. 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:04.239 Thanks for being on the show. 0:49:04.440 --> 0:49:06.160 Thank you so much for having me, guys, I really 0:49:06.239 --> 0:49:06.879 appreciate it. 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:11.680 Hi, Daniel and Kelly, thanks for the information on rat lungworm. 0:49:11.840 --> 0:49:14.319 It was very thorough and answered more questions than I 0:49:14.360 --> 0:49:17.160 thought I had. I've been on a dietem and told 0:49:17.200 --> 0:49:20.680 to eat more salad. Well, so much for that. Admittedly 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:23.240 I live in New Hampshire where the salad is likely safe, 0:49:23.280 --> 0:49:26.319 but it still give one pause. And please don't find 0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:30.240 a chocolate cake parasite anyway. Thanks for the great show. 0:49:31.239 --> 0:49:34.360 Aloha, Kelly and Daniel. I really enjoyed listening to doctor 0:49:34.360 --> 0:49:37.120 would share her knowledge of the rat long worm parasite 0:49:37.120 --> 0:49:40.480 and the disease. It was very informative. Thank you so 0:49:40.560 --> 0:49:43.280 much for giving me this opportunity to share some about 0:49:43.280 --> 0:49:47.400 our efforts for disease prevention here in Hawaii. In our 0:49:47.480 --> 0:49:50.719 rural community of Hanna, Maui. Back in twenty seventeen, we 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.480 had an outbreak of rat long worm disease and I 0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:56.959 have friends who are still experiencing some neurological symptoms years later, 0:49:57.080 --> 0:50:00.239 and there are still cases now. And then you're the 0:50:00.239 --> 0:50:04.120 Hawaii Farmers Union. We developed an educational outreach campaign aimed 0:50:04.600 --> 0:50:10.320 at rat lungworm disease prevention, targeting farmers and consumers. While 0:50:10.480 --> 0:50:14.759 all mollusks can carry ROLW and Hawaii the most high 0:50:14.840 --> 0:50:18.240 risk vector is called the semi slug due in part 0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.880 to how its habits bring it into contact with human 0:50:20.880 --> 0:50:22.880 food sources, where it can end up hiding in a 0:50:22.960 --> 0:50:27.160 lettuce or kale. As doctor Woods mentioned, there is a 0:50:27.160 --> 0:50:29.879 great need for locally grown food in Hawaii and we 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:32.919 want to support our local farmers. So while we don't 0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:36.319 want anyone to get rat lungworm disease, of course, we 0:50:36.400 --> 0:50:39.279 also don't want the fear of the disease to discourage 0:50:39.320 --> 0:50:43.920 people from eating locally grown produce, so we did outreach 0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:46.560 to local farms to help them reduce the risk of 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:51.280 contamination by aggressively going after rodents on their farms, creating 0:50:51.320 --> 0:50:54.560 buffer zones around their growing areas which semi slugs don't 0:50:54.640 --> 0:50:58.759 like to cross, putting out non toxic iron phosphate slug bait, 0:50:58.880 --> 0:51:03.040 and doing manual sets my slug removal. This is especially 0:51:03.080 --> 0:51:06.240 important during the rainy season when slugs are most active, 0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:10.319 and taken together, it can have a big impact on 0:51:10.520 --> 0:51:14.000 the presence of slugs for the consumer. No matter how 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:16.920 much we may trust the farmer, we have to take 0:51:16.960 --> 0:51:22.279 responsibility for our own safety. Cooking or freezing kills the parasite, 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:25.399 so for kale and other leafy greens, cooking it will 0:51:25.400 --> 0:51:28.600 prevent the disease, and if you really want raw kale smoothies, 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:32.520 you can freeze the kale first. I do eat local 0:51:32.560 --> 0:51:35.920 salads still, but I wash every leaf of lettuce in 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:38.600 flowing water, which will knock off the semi slug, and 0:51:38.640 --> 0:51:42.080 I carefully inspect them as I do. The good news 0:51:42.840 --> 0:51:47.120 Kelly and Daniel is that ratlungworm disease is an entirely 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:53.520 preventable disease. By taking proactive measures where produce is grown, 0:51:54.200 --> 0:51:57.160 we can greatly reduce the risk and by ultimately taking 0:51:57.280 --> 0:52:00.399 responsibility for our food. As consumers, we can and still 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:04.000 enjoy our delicious local greens while keeping ourselves safe from 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:07.800 this nasty nematode. As part of our outreach, we created 0:52:07.800 --> 0:52:11.440 a website with basic, clear information for farmers and consumers 0:52:11.520 --> 0:52:14.719 as well as patients. So and invite your listeners to 0:52:14.840 --> 0:52:19.000 visit rat lungworm dot info. Again, thank you so much 0:52:19.120 --> 0:52:22.800 for spreading awareness about this parasite and the debilitating disease 0:52:22.840 --> 0:52:25.759 it can cause, and for giving me my chance to 0:52:25.840 --> 0:52:30.279 add two cents to doctor Wood's excellent information. All of. 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:39.440 Thanks everybody for listening. Please go and do us a 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.759 favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. 0:52:42.800 --> 0:52:44.399 It really helps people find us. 0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:48.880 Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing 0:52:48.880 --> 0:52:49.600 Matt Kesselman. 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:53.040 He really is a wizard. You can also find us 0:52:53.200 --> 0:52:58.280 online on Blue Sky, Instagram and x D and K Universe. 0:52:58.360 --> 0:53:01.600 Come engage with us, can email us at questions at 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:03.160 Danielankelly dot org. 0:53:03.239 --> 0:53:05.399 We really do want to hear from you, and. 0:53:05.320 --> 0:53:09.439 You can find our website www dot danieland Kelly dot org, 0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:12.799 where you'll also find an invitation to join our discord 0:53:12.880 --> 0:53:16.120 where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe. 0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:20.360 And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is 0:53:20.400 --> 0:53:21.719 an iHeart podcast. 0:53:22.000 --> 0:53:22.960 Thanks for joining us.