WEBVTT - Roman Extinctions 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:04.960 Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:14.080 Heart Radios, How Stuff Works. Pay You Welcome to Stuff 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.160 to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.640 I'm Joe McCormick, and today we're gonna be talking about 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:23.480 not just extinctions, but we're gonna be talking about Roman extinctions, 0:00:23.920 --> 0:00:27.800 extinctions that occurred during the time of the Roman Republic, 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.840 but especially the Roman Empire. That sounds like one of 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:33.479 those names for like a made up lewd act, the 0:00:33.600 --> 0:00:37.520 Roman Extinction. Roman Extinctions maybe maybe so good band names. 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.920 Certainly so, Robert, I know you wanted to talk about 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.120 this because of some weird, uh maybe false memory you 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:45.199 had that you were trying to explain to me yesterday. 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.080 But it seems like a very apt topic, whatever the inspiration, 0:00:49.159 --> 0:00:53.280 Because of course, all decadent empires place large stresses on 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:57.520 the environment around them, so you would expect the you know, 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.160 one of the great decadent empires of history would the same. Yeah. 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.400 So I think, well, one of the important things to 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:05.920 keep in mind throughout this topic is like, we're not 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.040 We're certainly not meaning to single the Romans out as 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.240 being like the like the the the sole examples of 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:17.120 some of these activities that lead to, uh, to some extinctions. UM. 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.560 Because ultimately you can look to various parts of the 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.800 world in various times, including our own, to see plenty 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.240 of extinction inducing activities. But I think it's an interesting 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:28.520 exercise to sort of look to to look at Rome, 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.200 which which would have been I think in many ways 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:36.760 sort of uh an intensification of of impulses that were 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:41.000 already present in other cultures. So to to get started, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:44.840 let's just remind everybody who the Romans were. I'm not 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.720 sure that one of the Romans ever done for us, Yeah, 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.560 I mean, well, speaking of that, yeah, you know, I 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.760 don't for reasons like that. I think that we don't 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.400 really need like a full introduction. I think pretty much 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.520 everybody has some idea of who the Romans were and 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.160 what the Roman Empire was out. I mean just the 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:06.440 basic tropes, um of of the Roman Empire are pretty uh, 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:10.280 you know, ubiquitous in our culture. UM. Look to, for instance, 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.040 to Monty Python's Life of Brian, which you just quoted, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:15.639 which by the way, has been singled out for being 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:20.320 actually quite historically accurate concernment concerning life in Roman occupied 0:02:20.320 --> 0:02:23.359 first century Judea. Yeah, I've read that before a lot 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:25.920 of historians that it's more accurate than a lot of 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.960 serious movies. Right, yeah, because you know, a lot of 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.480 depictions of Rome they really especially the older cinematic interpretations, 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.440 but even like more modern films that were influenced by 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:40.440 those older interpretations, you just get like the stoic, colorless, 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.880 very British vision of Rome generally not a lot of 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.080 like street level understanding. Um. But but that's one of 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:50.800 the reasons that HBO's Rome series, it was one for 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.160 several years, um, you know, which isn't perfect, but certainly 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:57.240 had some admirers because of the way that it injected 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.919 a lot of color and and and life off in 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:03.880 like street level life into this time in this place. 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:09.160 I've also read that Kubrick spartacus Is is more accurate 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:11.280 than a lot of the films that you would have 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.400 encountered in the nineteen sixties regarding the Romans, but of 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.600 course still has a number of problems as well. I 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:20.079 mainly just remember Joe Panaliono and the Sopranos being mad 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:23.200 at it because Kirk Douglas has a flat top and 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:27.720 he's like, they didn't have flat tops in ancient Rome. Um. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.560 But by the way, I always enjoyed the ancient Roman 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:35.120 detective novels of Gordianus The Finder by Stephen Saylor. UM. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:38.280 I highly recommend those to anybody. There to be clear 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:43.360 contemporary novels set in ancient Rome. Anyway, we're in short, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.640 we're talking about an empire centered in Rome, established in 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.920 twenty seven b C after the collapse of the Roman Republic, 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.160 which was founded in five oh nine BC, and eventually 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.360 grew grew rather rather sizeable and actually rather difficult to 0:03:56.400 --> 0:03:59.440 manage due to its size, stretching across Europe, the Balkans, 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:03.600 the Middle East, and North Africa. It's the classic risk problem. 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:06.280 You overextend your armies, you go out too far, you 0:04:06.320 --> 0:04:08.560 think you can hold all of Asia and get those 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.840 whatever you know, fifty men at the end of each turn. 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:13.800 That is overextend. Yeah, it's the problem you see in 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.120 every empire without fail and uh. And since they were 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.160 an empire, they were of course built on a military 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.200 conquest and domination of other lands. And and to be fair, 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:26.159 the characters in Monty Python are mostly correct in their 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:29.520 list of the quote unquote good things that the Romans 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.640 have done for us. Um, you know, we've we talk 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.760 a lot, especially on our other podcast Invention, about various 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:39.880 Roman innovations. Roman technologies talked about sewers and toilets, sewers 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:41.800 and toilets, but of course they didn't risk bring sewers 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.239 and toilets. They all in Rhods. They also brought death 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.000 and bloodshed. They depended on slave labor. And uh, we 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.880 can at least lay some of the hollow scene extinctions 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:56.360 at their sandaled feet. So that's what we're gonna focus 0:04:56.440 --> 0:04:59.160 on today. And UH, and just fair warning that we 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.080 will be talking in places about the Romans trade and 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.520 exotic animals and their harsh treatment of these animals in 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.080 the in the arenas and in the colosseum. And this 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.520 is all bloody and depressing stuff, cruelty to animals on 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.479 a massive scale, So just you know, sort of fair 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:18.279 warning on that. And uh, and just a reminder for 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:21.680 information on how to report cruelty to animals today in 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:24.719 the United States, please visit the American Society for the 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.640 Prevention of Cruelty to Animals at a SPCA dot org 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:32.240 or search for Report Animal Abuse a s p c. A. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.600 That being said, let's move on to the extinctions. Okay, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.680 let's hear about it. So one of the articles that 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:40.520 we were looking at and preparing for this episode is 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:43.719 an excellent two thousand and sixteen Atlantic article titled the 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:48.000 Exotic Animal Traffickers of Ancient Rome by Caroline Wazer, and 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:51.280 in it she points out that bloody animal spectacles were 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.039 an important part of Roman culture, Like, you know, it 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.640 wasn't just you know, something that was also going on. 0:05:57.080 --> 0:06:01.360 It's not like, say, pointing to today's culture and saying, uh, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.440 look at look at the popularity of say, mixed martial arts. 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:07.440 It's central to the American experience. I don't know, you 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:09.880 can maybe make that argument, but it's not just a 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.560 thing in the culture. It's like an integral part of 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:15.440 the culture. Maybe you're saying, like you can't really understand 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.400 the culture without it. Yes, yeah, And I believe that's 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:20.920 the point she's making. Um So, I think most of 0:06:21.000 --> 0:06:24.599 us are familiar more familiar with human on human gladiator sports, 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.080 which we've we've touched on on this show before. And 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.440 if it's a you know, any things in large part 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.320 of Ridley Scott's Gladiator in modern times, but so many 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:37.599 different treatments of gladiatorial combat have been rolled out in 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.839 our media, but it wasn't just human on human violence. 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:45.920 You also had damnatio add beast is my Latin correct 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.760 on that, Joe, it looks like dumb natio ad beasts. 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.159 I mean, I'm not an expert either, okay, but dumb 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.520 natio right like damn nation. Well, anyway, it stands for 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.880 execution by beasts. And then there were the natitiones or 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.160 the hunts, you which animals were condemned to die either 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.240 at the hands of human hunters um and sometimes like 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:08.120 just we're talking like just a brutal display of like 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.680 a hunter dispatching all sorts of exotic animals out there 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.960 on the field, or they would have animals battle each 0:07:15.000 --> 0:07:18.400 other all for sport. And sadly, these uh, these blood 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.160 sports have been a part of human civilization for quite 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.760 a while, and though thankfully outlawed in most places, but still, 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:28.000 cock fighting remains legal in parts of the world, as 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.160 does dog fighting. Sports like bear baiting and lion baiting 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.720 continued depressingly far into modern times, at least in some 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.680 parts of the world, and bullfighting remains legal and parts 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.320 of the world as well, uh, namely Spain and Portugal. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.200 I would say it's not quite the same because it 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.400 doesn't involve vertebrates. But I mean even the bug fights 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.280 thing on the internet. I'm sure you've seen that. We're 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.400 we're like crickets or beetles or made to combat each other, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.560 or centipedes or spiders. I mean it's just basically you 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.920 put too kind of scary looking bugs into a container 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.840 together and then kit and try to make them fight. Yeah, 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:06.560 it's uh, I don't know what exactly that impulses. I 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.120 mean there's a part of it. I guess I understand 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:11.440 because I remember when I was a kid, I would 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.200 very often want to ask adults questions like what would 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.360 win in a fight between a tarantula and a scorpion? 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.160 And like as if I thought that, like, adults just 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.440 know these things. You know that, yeah, you're grown up, 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.800 you'd know which one would win. Well, there is kind 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:29.280 of like a need, there's an human necessity to to 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.920 rank and profile the creatures of the natural world. And 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.319 you still see this kind of thing in like kids 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.160 books today, Like my son has a book, uh like 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.520 who would Win? And and it's it's about prehistoric creatures 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:46.760 and dinosaurs, uh, and all good educational information, but it's delivered, uh, 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.920 with the wrappings of this creature versus this creature. So 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.800 I was not alone in this childhood curiosity. No, I 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.160 think it's I mean, I think there's something you know, 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:59.679 normal and healthy in it. I mean, I mean, look 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:03.320 at your documentaries, which can be quite uncomfortable to watch 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.360 at times when you have a predator and prey battling 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.920 each other. But of course, one of the key differences 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:12.040 here is that these are natural occurrences or they better 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.199 damn well be natural occurrences in a nature documentary, and 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.000 they're not something that has been orchestrated through cruelty by 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:23.000 by humans looking for entertainment. Right. Putting animals into the 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:25.680 Roman arenas kind of the equivalent of the bug fight, 0:09:25.720 --> 0:09:27.440 Like you put them in the box and shake it 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:30.240 and try to get them fighting. Right. So, I think 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.079 this is though, an example of where you know, if 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:36.880 you know the Roman cruelty to animals via blood sport, 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:40.360 it's it's an outsized and more sensational example of something 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.120 that occurs in other cultures and in other times. It's 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:46.400 not an excuse for any of this, but again, it's 0:09:46.440 --> 0:09:48.800 important to ground such activities in the larger picture of 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.080 human awfulness. But ways Are actually opens her article with 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.600 a discussion of Roman orator um Marcus Cicero in his 0:09:57.679 --> 0:10:01.520 correspondences with a formal a legal client, a man by 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:05.440 the name of Marcus Kalias. This is while Cicero was 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:10.200 governor of Cilicia in modern day Turkey. So basically um 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:14.079 Calias just continued to hound Cisero about how he needs 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:17.400 him to have some hunters capture and send back some 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.200 local leopards which they refer to as Greek panthers, because 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.200 he needs because he's He's like, you gotta give these 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.120 to me, Cistero. I've got to throw him in the arena. 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.800 The people love this, and I'm trying to kick start 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.720 my political career here, come on, don't let me down. 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.800 And it's just it's like multiple correspondences where he's just 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:37.520 really hounding Cisero over this, and Cicero keeps dodging him 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.120 on the matter and saying, well, look though, you know, 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.679 the local hunters are busy, you know, etcetera. That's that 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.040 sort of thing. It's like, can you get Mick Jagger 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.200 to come to my party? Yeah? I mean it is. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.280 It's like, imagine if instead of when you see an 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.719 individual running for political office today, instead of it being 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:57.920 a situation of them trying to score, say Neil Young 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:01.360 or you know, the guzzlers to play their event if 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:05.319 instead you were trying to procure exotic animals to massacure 0:11:05.320 --> 0:11:07.800 each other in a public arena. But it speaks to 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.360 how important this was to at least a large segment 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:14.000 of the population. And so this is something that would 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.200 have been practiced in uh, you know, in the Roman Republic, 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.480 but but then reached you know, new heights in the 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.240 Roman Empire. But it but it also is important to 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.800 know that like not everybody was completely on board with this. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:29.559 Uh Wayser shares descriptions by by Cicero the describe it 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:33.520 as being you know, barbaric and unnecessary and uh And 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.960 there are also some descriptions by a plenty of the 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.319 Elder as well, in which I think we can we 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.319 can trust him a little bit more here because he's 0:11:40.440 --> 0:11:43.760 dealing with domestic matters and not mysterious species that he 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:46.720 has no firsthand knowledge of. But the plenty you will 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:49.240 get vindicated a little bit later on in this episode two. 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:52.240 But but in this case, Waser points out things that 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.880 they were both writing about how Pompey the Great organized 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:59.720 a series of spectacles. Um, but but what like the 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.400 main event essentially was a great elephant hunt in the arena. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:06.720 And it's interesting interesting in the in the accounts that 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.960 showed that that while individuals like Cistero viewed these shows 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:12.880 as bloody and cruel, the crowds generally loved it. But 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:15.680 the elephant hunt was even too much for the masses. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:19.040 And here's the quote from Cicero, obviously translated that she 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:22.640 shares quote. The last day was that of the elephants, 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.040 on which there was a great deal of astonishment on 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.920 the part of the vulgar crowd, but no pleasure whatever. Nay, 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:31.839 there was even a certain feeling of compassion aroused by it, 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.600 and a kind of belief created that the animal has 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:39.400 something in common with mankind. Yet they kept watching. Huh, Well, yeah, 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:43.240 they kept watching, and but apparently felt awful about it. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.720 And there were you know, some some booze and whatnot. 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.719 And of course this didn't prevent later elephant spectacles from 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.760 taking place, and and ultimately, indeed, like the continued trafficking 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.920 of exotic animals is the focus of Waiser's article. Uh, 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.720 that there was this booming industry for folks who would 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:02.200 arrange the capture of addict wild animals, generally from the 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.320 extremes of the Empire, and then transport them back to 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:07.720 Rome to fight in the arena. So it was a 0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:11.440 cruel business, but enthusiastic. The enthusiasm for the spectacles in 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.720 the arena also also bubbled over into enthusiasm for the 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:18.840 details of the actual hunts and the tactics that procured them, 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:20.880 and this is reflected to both in the literature of 0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.480 the day and also in h in the art of 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:27.000 the Roman Empire, where you see murals and whatnot depicting 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:31.600 individuals hunting these wild animals so they could bring them back, 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:33.840 and that that, with the wildness of it, was something 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.319 that the Romans seemed to crave, she points out, because 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:39.160 the uh there there weren't there, weren't really that many 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.080 attempts to try and raise them in captivity. They had 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:46.120 to be captured and brought back to Rome as part 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:48.839 of the appeal. I wonder if the idea about the 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.920 methods used in hunting them does that show up later 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.400 in the sort of styles of gladiators that appear in 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.920 the arena. Because I know we have like the there's 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.240 the style of gladiator that's mob old after the fisherman, 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.800 you know, that has like the trident and the net 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:06.160 and all that. So there are certain styles that seem 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:11.599 to be based on on like the armies of opposing nations, 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:15.480 or or on professions like fishing. I wondered also if 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.559 that the hunting methods that they talked about with these 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:22.240 animals contributed there. Yeah, I mean, it might very well 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:23.880 be the case. So she doesn't get into that in 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:25.760 this paper, and I didn't see it mentioned in some 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:28.520 of the other more animal focused sources I was looking 0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:33.120 at here. But you know, obviously the gladiatorial tropes that 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.800 they used in the arena, they were all, you know, 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.960 based on existing things, you know, to be it be 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.600 it a fisherman or a uh, you know, a soldier 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:43.960 or you know, some sort of animal component that was 0:14:44.120 --> 0:14:46.640 going to be echoed in the design. So let's come 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:48.920 back to the elephants though, because I think so far 0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:51.840 that's been the most alarming um you know, obscenity that 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.280 we've looked at here on the part of the Romans. Yeah, 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.760 it's interesting that passage that you read from Cicero, where 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:00.200 you know, he's describing the crowds feeling simp with you 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.280 for the elephants while they watch this brutality being done 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:08.160 to them. I mean, I wonder if there's more of 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:12.720 that kind of thing going on in the the appetites 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.520 of the Roman Arena audiences than we would normally imagine, 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.240 Like we imagine the audiences the gladiatorial games and all 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.560 this kind of stuff just being you know, bloodthirsty, like yeah, 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.120 they want the fight, they want the violence, and and 0:15:26.160 --> 0:15:29.000 they love it and they're eating it up. I wonder 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:33.400 if there was some element of the audience that I 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:36.240 don't know, it's something more equivalent to to the kind 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:39.200 of like hate watching or the hate clicking kind of 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.160 thing that people do now, like where you know, people 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.560 are constantly clicking on things on the Internet that they 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.200 know we're going to make them unhappy. You know, you 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.080 just reliably know if I click this link, I'm gonna 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.720 feel bad and I'm not gonna like what I read, 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:57.640 but I click it anyway. You know, I wonder where 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.800 people going to the arena, like I know I'm gonna 0:15:59.800 --> 0:16:01.640 fee all bad, but I have to look at this, 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:03.800 you know, that would be might be worthwhile to come 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:07.440 back and explore that in greater detail, like the nature 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:12.600 of these gladiatorial blood sport events UM which we should 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:15.720 stress are generally there were a lot more varied, uncomplicated 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:20.960 than UH is often relayed in popular media. But still 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:24.600 we're violent, blood, blood thirsty events. You know what, what 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:26.520 was the psychology of that? And then how much of 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:30.400 that psychology still remains in the fandom of various you know, 0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:35.040 high impact sporting events or you know, actual mixed martial 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.440 arts or other martial arts contests, or even simulated um 0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.200 athletic contests such as professional wrestling. I don't know, I 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.120 have to come back to that, I think. But one 0:16:45.160 --> 0:16:47.040 thing the Waysier also points out is you know that 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:51.280 like there were there their artistic UH renditions of say 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.400 big cats that were used in some of these events, 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.400 and they would be given names in the art and 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.960 they would be kind of they're like some of the 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.320 iconography would be akin to that that would you be 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:07.760 used for human gladiators. So yeah, it gets it gets sticky. 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:09.760 And and then I mean just thinking about the elephants 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:12.439 and the obvious connection, like the obvious intelligence that is 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:16.800 there in the elephant the sympathy that one feels like this. Uh, 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.320 this kind of connection like has existed throughout I think 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.399 our our experiences with elephants, and yet cruelty to elephants 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:25.800 continues to this day. Uh. And um, you know had 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:28.640 certainly continued on through the you know, the history of 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:33.560 circuses around the world. So um, yeah, I mean our 0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.919 relationship with animals is always complicated, even when we have 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.439 you know, sympathy actually activated for them. Well, I know 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:45.200 you wanted to explore more about the Romans and the elephants. Yeah, 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.440 so I found a book titled Elephant Destiny Biography of 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:52.040 an Endangered Species in Africa by Martin Meredith. And in 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:55.200 this the author details the slaughter in the Roman Arenas 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:59.359 in general in the in the opening of Pompei's Games 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.760 in the b C and he mentions that no fewer 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.280 than six hundred lions were massacured, just to give everyone 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:12.760 an idea of the scale of bloodshed. Here, six hundred lions. 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:15.600 Can you imagine, I mean, a lion is a lion 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:19.639 is an apex predator, So there already aren't that many 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:25.040 of them, And to remove six hundred lions from their habitat, Yeah, 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:28.760 to essentially like basically put out the call and say, look, Pompey, 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.000 the Great kneeds lions. So everybody that is in the 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.000 in the business of catching lions or could conceivably catch 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.119 a lion, get out there and start catching lions essentially, 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:40.159 uh and and this but this would have meant just 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:45.440 before the elephant event described previously. So what elephants were 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.560 they catching? Well, the author here points out that the 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:52.120 North African elephant was was the likely species. Is these 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:56.920 were the elephants used by the forces of Hannibals Carthagian army. 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.560 The African bush elephant that is still a round um, 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:03.119 this one is too wild to to ride around or 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.840 to really tame in the same way that one uses, uh, 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:10.000 the Asian elephant and uh and and not to just 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.960 you know, to a single out Carthage. Other groups used 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.640 the North African elephant for labor in war as well. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.760 But anyway, following Hannibal's defeat, the region fell under Roman 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.399 control and the Romans used these elephants in their bloody 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.119 sports as well as in attractions that really have more 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.080 in common with the sort of circus work that we 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.320 see uh, you know throughout even like the twentieth century, 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.280 and then and then includes things like tight rope walking. Yeah, 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:38.919 they single he singles that out in the book. But 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:43.040 here's a quote that touches on the additional levels of 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.800 exploitation that get to become employed. Quote. Rome's liking for 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.520 elephants meant that the North African herds faced constant raids. 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.840 But even more perilous was the insatiable Roman demand for ivory. 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.480 Ivory was used to decorate temples and palaces, carried in 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:02.120 triumphal processions, and maid into a vast range of luxury 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:07.120 goods thrones, chess, statues, chairs, beds, book covers, tablets, boxes, 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:10.960 bird cages, combs, and broches. Caesar wrote in an Ivory 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.879 Chariot Seneca possessed five hundred tripod tables with ivory legs. 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:20.000 Do you need that many tables for large events? Large 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:24.040 scale events? I guess Caligula gave his horse an ivory stable. Wow. 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:26.120 I'm glad we got Caligula in there. I wasn't sure 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.640 we were can actually uh be able to make room 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:32.240 for him. So that being said, some of the ivory 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.879 came from India and Ethiopia, but North Africa suffered the 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.600 most and in seventies seven CE plenty of the Elder 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.119 rode about the shortage of African ivory quote an ample 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.640 supply of ivory is now rarely obtained except from India, 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.440 the demands of luxury having exhausted all those in our 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.679 part of the world. And of course, um the ivory 0:20:53.680 --> 0:20:57.320 trade still remains a threat to elephant populations, despite laws 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.560 and the hard work of of conservationist world wide. And 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:03.840 if you want more information about what's going on and 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.679 what can be done, I recommend everyone check out stop 0:21:06.720 --> 0:21:10.520 ivory dot org for more information. Okay, but what was 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.600 the ultimate effect on the elephant populations? Do we know 0:21:13.680 --> 0:21:16.880 if the Roman exploitation of these animals did it? Did 0:21:16.920 --> 0:21:20.040 it damage their populations? Did it drive them extinct? The 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:24.440 general consensus is that it it definitely drove their extinction. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.119 They either died out during the fifth century or at 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:30.879 least we're well on their way to extinction. But the 0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:34.919 damage was done during the Roman imperial period, so it 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.879 wasn't necessarily that we know that the Romans like hunted 0:21:37.920 --> 0:21:40.679 down the very last of the North African elephants, but 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.920 they may whatever they did to them damage their populations enough, 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:47.679 and all that that we think it strongly contributed to 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:49.760 their decline, right, and that's something we're going to see 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:51.960 in some of these other examples we bring it. We 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:54.960 bring out as well is that there are other cases 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.880 where it's certainly not in a situation where the Romans 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:02.400 just went out and had killed or had killed all 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:06.320