WEBVTT - Adamantine’s Bays on Sustainable Investing 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.320 Hello, and welcome to the Votes in Verdicts podcast hosted 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:19.440 by Bloomberg Intelligence, Bloomberg LPA's investment research platform. In this 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:22.480 podcast series, we talk about the intersection of business policy 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:25.119 and law. My name is Brandon Barnes and I'm a 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:29.960 senior analyst with Bloomberg Intelligence covering energy policy, regulatory and litigation. 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:33.600 Today we are welcoming to the show Katie Bays, who 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.240 is currently the Director of Sustainable Investment with Adamantine Energy, 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:42.000 where she provides political and regulatory analysis regarding risks related 0:00:42.000 --> 0:00:45.199 to investments in energy projects and companies. We're going to 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:49.519 get deeper into what Katie's currently doing Previously, she's been 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:51.320 in a number of different places and it's a kind 0:00:51.360 --> 0:00:54.040 of a fascinating background when you think of energy policy, 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.400 and so we're going to touch on some of those 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:59.200 as well. But I'd like to kick it off by 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:02.920 reminder Katie that we met during the healcyon days of 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.920 the Dakota Access Pipeline litigation in District Court in DC. 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.320 What days those were? Amazingly that's still dragging on somehow, 0:01:12.600 --> 0:01:15.560 And that time you were at Height Capital Markets and 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:19.480 you're writing an analysis for clients from d C with 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:24.160 sort of a DC perspective. I'd love to hear how 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:27.560 you went from height to sort of the role you're 0:01:27.600 --> 0:01:31.000 on now at is it adamantin. 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.520 Adam and Tein, Yeah, you've got it. Well, those were 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:40.080 fun times, absolutely for some people at least, and if 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:42.320 nothing else good came out of that litigation, it was 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:46.360 good to meet you, Brandon. And Yeah, So to your point, 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.960 I've done a couple of different things in my career. 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:55.560 I mostly worked as an advisor to financial institutions, providing 0:01:55.560 --> 0:02:02.000 political and regulatory analysis related to investment, but I've also 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.280 a couple of times in my career served as an 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.280 economic consultant. I worked for the Energy Information Administration at 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.360 the beginning of my career and then done a couple 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:15.560 of Census economic analyst and consultant. And I think that 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:19.880 that perspective of both finance economics and then with the 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:23.519 policy overlayer has given me a bit of a unique 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.560 point of view. And while I'm not an attorney, I've 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:32.560 certainly had a number of opportunities to listen into those 0:02:32.760 --> 0:02:38.000 kind of litigation settings, and I think in the way 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.480 in which I'm trying to sort of bring this background 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:46.320 into a useful sort of application with Adam and Teine 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:51.079 and with the capital markets today is that we're at 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.440 the precipice of this big energy transition thing, and we 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.000 don't necessarily know exactly how it's going to go, but 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.320 we know that there's a lot of project developed meant 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:04.960 that has to occur, and there's you know, there are financial, economic, 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:10.640 and political overlayers to that. Plus there's obviously, you know, 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.359 this risk of litigation that I think everyone is very 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.560 sensitive to. So we try to kind of anticipate how 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.120 that confluence of risk can come together and how that's 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:25.880 likely to affect different projects and different companies, and do 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:28.440 that in a way that hopefully is helpful to people 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.200 trying to make investment decisions. 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:33.639 So that's I mean, and that's that's some of what 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.080 we do as well. But I think it's your approach 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.880 in this in this position is interesting. I think, you know, 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:46.040 even even though I am that bad word lawyer, you know, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.800 previous life, I think I think about sustainable investing and 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:53.080 I wonder, you know, I should know what that means. 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.960 That's but it's not it's not just it's not a 0:03:56.040 --> 0:03:58.880 touchy feely thing at all. Right, It's not sort of 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:01.200 the days of old where we're talking about, you know, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:03.640 this is a better thing than that, just because we 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.600 said so, tell me if you can a little bit 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.440 more about what that is and how you view it, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:13.320 and we can maybe talk about some of the specifics. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:16.000 Yeah. Well, and I think it's important to acknowledge that 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:18.839 sustainable investment is not one thing, and it's not a 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.159 static thing, and it's evolving. I mean, I think a 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.200 lot of folks would incorporate, you know, principles like esg. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.880 The environment, social and governance principles into the sort of 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:33.720 category of sustainable investing. But it's when I think about where, 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.279 you know, it seems like a lot of investment firms 0:04:36.360 --> 0:04:41.960 are incorporating these principles of sustainability. I think it's more 0:04:42.120 --> 0:04:44.320 from the point of view of kind of doing a 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.480 couple of things. One is obviously trying to manage long 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:52.520 term returns, and this particularly in the energy universe, this 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.320 idea that we are undergoing a fundamental change and we 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:57.479 again don't know exactly how it's going to go, but 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:02.080 there's a I think general accept so that companies or 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:07.479 projects that are designed for a sustainable future or maybe 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.080 resilient in a sustainable future are likely to perform better 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:13.520 over time. And so that's a sort of a core 0:05:14.040 --> 0:05:18.000 principle of what I would call sustainable investing. And then 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.280 there's also there are other layers of sustainability too. There's 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:26.520 issues like environmental justice and social justice that speak maybe 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:31.279 more to sentiment or more to what you might call 0:05:31.360 --> 0:05:33.880 like a social license to operate. In the context of 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:41.080 a project, you know, our consumers or other corporate partners 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:47.120 willing to engage with a business. And I think that investors, 0:05:47.120 --> 0:05:48.839 I think, by and large and the public by and 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:52.960 large acknowledges that you are more likely to perform well 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.680 as a business or a project if you can engage 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:01.880 and maintain support from your customers, from your employees, from 0:06:01.960 --> 0:06:06.400 your peers, from your various stakeholders. So to me, that's 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:10.160 the cruxis sustainable investing is that we're not just going 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.440 to pencil out a company on you know, in Excel 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.440 and try to see if this looks like a good return. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.240 We're also going to look at the company's risk factors 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.160 in a holistic sense and try to determine if this 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.800 company or project is really going to be around in 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:28.120 the long term. And I think it's a response to 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:31.400 you know, this very large degree of social and political 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:33.600 change that we're living through as well well. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.880 And certainly we've I mean we've this is how we met, right, 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:40.760 this is being part of these infrastructure projects that are 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.719 going through something other than just I didn't get a 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:49.200 permit or I don't have the funding, right, so I 0:06:50.360 --> 0:06:53.040 guess have used since since to go to access since 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:56.839 twenty sixteen, and the courts, you know, have I wonder 0:06:57.000 --> 0:07:01.320 because I'm watching, you know, which project are having trouble 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.240 because of things like environmental justice or you jay, you know, 0:07:05.360 --> 0:07:09.800 how have you seen that from your role sort of 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.640 evolve to become something that's more you can put not 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.679 not necessarily put in Excel, but like you can actually 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.200 put some metrics around and really really analyze. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.760 That's a good question. I mean, I think we have 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:25.320 definitely seen. Here's what I would say, because I think 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.000 putting it into Excel is still really hard. So that 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.400 part of the maturation of you know, this idea of 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.720 sustainable investing. I think it's not quite My opinion would 0:07:35.720 --> 0:07:38.920 be it's not quite there. But I'll kind of explain 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:44.520 more about what I mean by that. The environmental justice 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.920 or social justice issues or the social license to operate 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.520 manifest in a negative way. And I don't think that 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:53.680 these things are always negative, but I think that we 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.240 do particularly notice when they show up in a negative way. 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:04.640 Is when you've got mounting opposition to a project that 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.400 you know may have some layers of support, like you 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.080 might often see projects do a good job of cultivating 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:18.360 very high level political support, maybe a governor or you know, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.240 even a national figure like a congress person, but that 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:27.680 the local community does not support the project or finds 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.080 or maybe they could support the project in general or 0:08:31.080 --> 0:08:34.040 in principle, but there are particular aspects of the project 0:08:34.360 --> 0:08:38.880 that they find objectionable. And that is very often sufficient 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:40.800 to stop a project. And I think that's what we 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:43.760 are finding is, you know, even if a project is 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:47.719 entitled to use some tools like eminent domain, if there's 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:53.000 local opposition that's speciferous, that's sufficient to wrap a project 0:08:53.080 --> 0:08:56.360 up in litigation for a long time or intimidate maybe 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:00.680 some regulatory figures out of providing a permit, or providing 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.400 a permit as expeditiously as the project might need. So 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:05.560 it's just a lot of different pain points, and so 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.880 what does this mean for investment, right, and where this 0:09:09.000 --> 0:09:12.000 comes in I think within the framework of, you know, 0:09:12.000 --> 0:09:15.680 how our investors dealing with this problem in this headwind. 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:22.760 It's honestly, I think it's by removing dollars from the market. 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.440 I think there is less investment in project development than 0:09:26.440 --> 0:09:30.160 there would otherwise be if projects had useful tools to 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:34.920 navigate these challenges, and if there was a generally agreed 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.439 upon playbook for how to engage with communities in a 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:44.559 way that directly addresses that local or you know, very 0:09:44.679 --> 0:09:48.079 concentrated opposition. And then the last thing I would just 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:50.640 say on the subject is that I think we often 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:55.000 see this risk discussed in the context of permitting reform. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.600 But you know, one of the things we've written about 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.120 a couple of different times in our work is is 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.840 that permitting reform is not a panacea. You can reform 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:08.000 the way in which federal agencies are supposed to administrate 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.640 the National Environmental Policy Actor NITA, but that doesn't obfuscate 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:15.320 the role of communities. And in fact, if we see 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:18.000 a permitting reform bill passed this year, I think we 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.720 probably should anticipate because this is a pretty bipartisan issue. 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.760 At the end of the day. We should anticipate that 0:10:23.800 --> 0:10:26.960 the role of communities is going to be part of 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.920 how we effectuate a permitting reform. I we see there's 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:36.680 a local ban on carbon capture projects in Louisiana right now, 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:42.760 We've got folks in Wyoming, where you've got there's state 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:48.160 primacy over carbon capture. There's some local intimations about what 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:51.800 people want to see from DAK or CCS projects. So 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:54.760 it's not a red state versus blue state issue. It's 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.160 a pretty bipartisan issue where folks want to have say 0:10:58.200 --> 0:10:59.760 on what goes on in their community. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.360 Does come down to local, doesn't it. I mean, you 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:07.040 look at what you know, we think of generally should 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.800 be a positive from a sustainability perspective. When we think 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.400 of a project, we think of like some of these 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.760 CO two pipelines. Right, let's run through Iowa. Let's take 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.680 some of that f andol CO two out and we'll 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:26.880 store it somewhere else underground. And the local opposition from 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:31.360 the farm is real, and it's it's going to change things. 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.800 It's going to slow things down. So you mentioned to playbook, 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.360 do you think, I mean, we've got to be closer 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:43.559 to a point where everybody recognizes that local is critical. 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:45.760 Do you think I mean, do you think there's still 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.800 there are still companies out there that are just let's 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.640 plow through or or just get the project done then 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:53.680 we can apologize after. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:58.320 Yeah, Unfortunately, I do. I do think that we are more. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.560 I mean, I think that the pendulum is a little 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:05.080 bit because of some of the high profile conflicts that 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.040 have broken out over a different infrastructure project. But I 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:10.720 think there's a bit sometimes maybe people are not learning 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.720 the right lesson. And for instance, you know, you brought 0:12:13.800 --> 0:12:17.520 up the long haul green field carbon capture pipelines that 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:20.760 are proposed throughout the Midwest. I mean, I would say, 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.680 you know, from my perspective, the wrong lesson over to 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.520 take away from the last let's say half a decade 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.199 or maybe it's almost a decade now, but lease the 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:36.600 last half a decade around energy infrastructure. The wrong lesson 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:41.240 is to say that, you know, clean projects are exempt, 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.800 clean energy projects are exempt from requirements to engage with 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:49.199 the community. That community opposition to a project like Dakota 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.640 Access was entirely, entirely to do with the fact that 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.920 it's an oil pipeline, and that is not true. You know, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.960 I mean, people are no more comfortable with CO two 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:05.160 pipelines today than they are with oil pipelines. You know, 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.080 maybe in a very abstract sense, but when you talking 0:13:08.080 --> 0:13:13.440 about something going through a person's property, it's you know, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.000 there's no difference, really, And I think we have to 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:22.040 approach projects from that perspective, that everyone's everyone's suspicion is valid, 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:25.679 and that folks need to be engaged early on in 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:30.080 the project, in the consultative process, and that the cudgel, 0:13:30.200 --> 0:13:32.840 the sort of the stick that you've historically used to 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.320 beat the community with, which is something like eminent domain, 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:38.240 that you should not you know, the stick needs to 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:40.880 stay in the closet, like the stick can't come out. 0:13:42.080 --> 0:13:46.040 And I do. I do get questions still about whether 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:49.199 or not projects can avail themselves of m domain, And 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.199 I'll just be honest, I think that's the wrong question 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.120 to ask. Even if you can, it's not it's not 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.960 a guarantee that the project is going to get all 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.840 the tools, so it needs to be able to get done. 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:03.760 So I'm a little less confident that we've learned all 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:06.360 the lessons that there are to learn, But I think 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.520 that time I feel confident that this is an issue 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.240 that folks are becoming more sophisticated on also. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.000 Certainly even especially with the new clean projects that are 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:19.800 sort of novel because we especially in places that we 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.160 haven't seen them before. You would it makes sense to 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:28.160 get out ahead with local groups as state regulators that 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.400 haven't seen it before and say, look, this is a 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.080 good thing for this reason, not just it's a feel 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.800 good story. Yeah, because I think the laws are the same, 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:41.560 right whether you're a natural gas pipeline or maybe a 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.320 CO two pipeline, depending on where you are. But you know, 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:51.520 whatever was used before to slow down, you know, force 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.280 somebody to avoid a permit on a fossil pipe fossil 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.760 infrastructure project, that law is still going to apply over 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:00.400 to some of the newer projects too. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.880 Yeah, if not even in a more onerous way, because 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:10.400 the newer projects may not have that you know, large 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:14.880 statutory or sort of the pool of precedent that helps 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:20.080 a company feel confident about what it's entitled to and 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.280 the path that needs to follow in order to get 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:27.160 the regulatory milestones that needs to hit. One of the 0:15:27.160 --> 0:15:29.200 things we kind of try to emphasize that I've learned 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:31.160 a lot about from the folks that I'm in teen 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.600 and I find really compelling. Is this idea? You know, 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.880 what does meaningful engagement look like? And I think Canada 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:42.600 actually provides a really interesting model to that where we've 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:48.320 really seen First Nations communities join projects as equity partners 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:52.320 or as project partners and their engagement as a owner 0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.600 in the project. Obviously there's financial benefits that accrue to 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.520 them as part of that function, just like there would 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.200 be to any other partner in a project, and that 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.080 that entitles or that earns the support of this community, 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:09.000 so that the sort of the political powers that be, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:13.600 you know, Prime Minister Trudeau, et cetera, are not anymore 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.720 responsible for standing up for the First nation. So the 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:20.920 First Nations are able to advocate for themselves. Their interests 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:23.920 are aligned with the project, and that has led to 0:16:25.000 --> 0:16:27.440 I mean those quite I think put really simply, those 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:29.680 are the projects that are getting done. And so what 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:31.480 does a model like that look like in the US? 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.720 You know, how can you, as a project developer explore 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.120 ways of really bringing communities on as partners and whether 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.120 that's an equity partner or a different kind of partner. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:42.920 You know, I'm not espousing the necessarily opinion, but like, 0:16:43.400 --> 0:16:45.280 how do you bring a community on as a partner, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.520 and with that partnership, you know, I think comes greater 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:49.640 regulatory certainty. 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.280 Yeah, I think you know some of that. We talked 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.520 about this before. But some of the examples, I mean, 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.320 when we talked about early days of fracking, you know, 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:05.680 twenty ten, then there was such a community pushback, mostly 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:09.040 because people didn't know right. It just was it was 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.439 asymmetrical in terms of the information out there on the 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:17.440 dangers or the risks or the benefits. But I remember 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:21.960 seeing some of the better operators get community agreements in 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:25.240 place where they went before they did anything, and they 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.000 got people to come to the table and say, you know, 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:30.439 we agree, here the restrictions, here's the setbacks, here's what 0:17:30.440 --> 0:17:33.520 we're going to do, and you know, they were able 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.520 to do the project. They weren't sitting there, you know, 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:44.000 reliigating Dimmick Water or I think it was Pavilion in California. 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:47.240 Those are blasts from the past. So yeah, I think 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:51.160 I totally agree that it just seems like stakeholder engagement 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.600 at a local level would circumvent so much of the 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:57.600 issues that a lot of these projects see now. 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.000 Yeah, I think that I think that's the right answer. 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:02.439 You know, I know that folks are doing it, and 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.160 so it's not to say that, you know, go from 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:10.520 zero to some engagement, but there are I think there 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:16.760 are really good, diligent practices that make a real difference 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.200 in terms of how productive that engagement. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:24.880 Ultimately, you touched on permit reform. What do you think 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.400 is it happening? You said, I know bipartisan support because 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.280 particular his mansions on board to some to a big extent. 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.399 But yeah, and I think you know, Senator Carper also 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.520 put out a version of a plan, So I mean 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.879 there's some it's more certainly more bipartisan in the Senate 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.159 than it is in the House, but that counts for 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:48.040 a lot, you know. My I think my base case 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:51.119 assumption right now is that, yes, I think permitting reform 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:57.160 does happen. You know, the timeline of maybe July going 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:01.400 into the August recess is probably a good I here's 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:03.440 what I would I would feel pretty confidencing that I 0:19:03.440 --> 0:19:10.040 think we'll get a push in July, and ultimately I 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.600 think see if we see something come together, it's probably 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:19.800 you know, eighty percent Republican support. Twenty percent democratic support 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.720 in the Senate and then maybe close to a party 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.119 line in the House, just because that seems to be 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.239 the way that that seems to be how things are 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:31.920 kind of going down right now that there's not if 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:34.639 there's not an incentive for House Democrats to vote for something, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:38.280 then they don't really need to. But that more bipartisan 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.800 progress on the Senate side is how things are going 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:45.520 to get done, so you know, I'll be looking forward 0:19:45.560 --> 0:19:47.760 to that. I think some of the provisions in permitting 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.520 reform that will matter to companies would be the limit 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.720 on the duration of the environmental assessment environmental impact statements. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.520 Limiting those to a year or two years would be 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:02.320 very material. Back to our favorite topic of litigation, providing 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.560 some sort of a limit on litigation one hundred and 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.120 twenty days one hundred and fifty days after final order 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.080 has been proposed. Those are the two timelines that folks 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.760 are kind of standing around. There are other things that 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.760 I think are less headline grabbing, but I definitely have 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:21.200 fielded questions from investors on things like, you know, whether 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.959 Mansion's proposal to staff furk better is going to go 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:27.879 through because that people have come to understand that you know, 0:20:27.920 --> 0:20:32.600 an understaffed FURK is a major headwind. So there there 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:37.000 are other factors that or other elements of the permitting 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:40.639 reform proposals that I think will matter to people, but 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:46.640 the big ones limiting those reviews and limiting litigation that 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:50.760 will probably that those seem to show up in basically 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:54.359 every version of a permitting reform package, So I think 0:20:54.520 --> 0:20:57.639 that's we should expect that, And then the some of 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:00.560 the accessories a little less clear. But I think it 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.440 does sound like there's a decent chance of something coming 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:07.560 together this summer. It's amazing to me because we are 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:12.800 in this bizarrely partisan time that more often than not 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:14.680 it seems like the Senate can just get its head 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:15.320 down and works. 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.639 Yeah, yeah, we would agree. I think that we were 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:24.000 always thinking summer summer was the best shot. I think 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:29.920 I'm suspicious of it actually being materials for project times generally, 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:33.800 but you know part of that, clearly, the courts have 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.160 a huge role they've been playing in this, because it's 0:21:36.200 --> 0:21:39.119 not like the agencies haven't been issuing permits, it's just 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.960 they've been getting kicked back to the agency two or 0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.760 more times. So yeah, I think we're a suspect on 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.840 materiality there, But putting caps on times is a good 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:51.760 start for sure, right. 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:54.000 And I think you're right to look past that a 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:58.600 bit and say who enforces those times? Right? Yes, yes, 0:21:58.760 --> 0:22:02.280 you know. And I definitely again putting on my pretending 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.439 to be a lawyer hat. I've had folks ask me 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:09.840 in the past if companies or projects can file a 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:12.840 rid of mandamus to try to get a permit at 0:22:12.840 --> 0:22:15.119 their own and it's like, well, if you want to 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:17.280 get your permit denied, you absolutely could do. 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.480 I like when when they dig up the they really 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:26.600 dig into the civil procedure, that's critical to know you're 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.000 rid of mandamus petitions. 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.600 Yeah, so, I mean you've probably not seen that happen, 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.760 though I actually think it has happened not so long ago. 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:40.320 But it's not the best, not the best strategy perhaps. 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:41.720 But look, I mean they're for some of these project 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:43.760 they're up against it, right, Like to think at them 0:22:43.760 --> 0:22:47.160 out Mountain Valley, like they have said that their best 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:51.440 hope is legislation, which is not been the best pathway 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:54.240 for anyone to get anything done on any topic for years. 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.879 But here we are, they just keep running into the 0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:59.439 fourth circuit wall I know. 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:02.679 Well, that's an interesting thing in terms of you know, 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:06.640 these sort of sleeper provisions and the permitting reform process, 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.840 that connection at being pretty material. There's one I think 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:16.399 it's in Sholling more capitals language, that would require that 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:20.439 the panel, like the circuit court judge panel, to be 0:23:20.560 --> 0:23:22.840 drawn at random for each project. So one of the 0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:25.880 challenges for MVP, right is that they've been continuously assigned 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.919 the same panel. And I don't I don't ever wish to, 0:23:29.480 --> 0:23:33.000 you know, assume anyone's intent, right, but I think that 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:37.560 the panel has become fatigued with the government. It seems 0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:41.359 in a lot of cases there's maybe a presumption that 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:45.879 the government has made errors in its work. And so 0:23:46.160 --> 0:23:50.800 obviously with pretty high degree of regularity, that circuit's coming 0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:55.920 back with, you know, with with real problems with these 0:23:55.960 --> 0:24:00.159 permits that MVP is earning, and that is, uh, it's 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:02.359 been a real challenge. So I wonder, I wonder if that, 0:24:02.480 --> 0:24:06.160 you know, getting fresh eyes on each round of litigation, 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:08.480 if that could end up actually being kind of helpful 0:24:08.760 --> 0:24:10.600 for future projects. But I think, you know, if I'm 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.440 a project developer, I'm going to try to avoid by 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:17.439 hooker by Kruk going through the same series of problems 0:24:17.440 --> 0:24:19.320 that that MVP has had to deal with. 0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:21.720 Yeah, I'm thinking about where I'm going to build, and 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:25.560 it's not it's not going to be through the through 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:28.440