1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Hi, it's Akua. I'm off for a summer break, and 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: so we're bringing you one of my favorite conversations from 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: the archive. It's with science fiction author Kim Stanley Robinson, 4 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: who wrote the Marsh trilogy and the climate thriller Ministry 5 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: for the Future. We talked earlier in the year about 6 00:00:18,160 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: how twenty twenty five might play out stand and get 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: everything right, but he got a lot more right than wrong, 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: and our conversation remains as relevant today as it was then, 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: perhaps even more so. I hope you're having a great summer, 10 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: and we'll be back with new episodes soon. Welcome to Zero. 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: I am Aksha Trati this week imagining Utopia in twenty 12 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: twenty five. I love reading science fiction, and one of 13 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: the sci fi writers who has had an impact on 14 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: me in recent years is Kim Stanley Robinson. Stan is 15 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: perhaps best known for his Mars trilogy, published in the 16 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, but Zero listeners are likely to know him 17 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: for his writings over the past decade on what climate 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: futures here on Earth might look like. Be it the 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: underwater metropolis he imagined in his novel New York twenty 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: one forty, or how a United Nations agency and its 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 1: dark wing of eco terrorists tackle the climate crisis in 22 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 1: his book The Ministry for the Future. Stan has been 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: a guest on Zero before, but I wanted to speak 24 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: with him again because that book, The Ministry for the 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: Future has been on my mind recently. Although it was 26 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: published in twenty twenty, the story in the book kicks 27 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: off in the year twenty twenty five, and well, here 28 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: we are. The book opens just after a fictional COP 29 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: twenty nine summit, as a deadly heat wave hits India. 30 00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: The plot follows the choices faced by United Nations officials 31 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: in the new department called the Ministry for the Future 32 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: as they try to cope with the spiraling impacts of 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: a warming planet. With twenty twenty five upon us, I 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,959 Speaker 1: wanted to see how Stan was feeling about the book's 35 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:15,160 Speaker 1: version of this timeline and find out what he thought 36 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: about the unpredictable direction real life events have taken since 37 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: he wrote it. We talked about the value of science 38 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: fiction as a way to see into the future, as 39 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 1: well as sci fi's dangers, and why a writer who 40 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: admires science and technology so much still remains enamored with 41 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: the unglamorous work of a body like the Evan Welcome 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: to the show. 43 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,239 Speaker 2: Thank you, Aukshott, It's good to be back. 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: So I listened to our conversation from a couple of 45 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 1: years ago, and I have to say you sounded optimistic, 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: and in twenty twenty three there were good reasons to 47 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: be optimistic. We talked about how after the Paris Agreement, 48 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: when the world was headed towards maybe four or five 49 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: degrees celsius of warming, we had these forces come together, 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: including the US turning around and having a climate law passed, 51 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: and there was a general sense of coherence in the 52 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:25,720 Speaker 1: world trying to do something about climate change at a scale. Finally, 53 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: so now here we are sitting at the start of 54 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, the exact time period when the Ministry 55 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: for the Future sort of gets started on its journey, 56 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: and I thought it might be interesting to just revisit 57 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: and update our outlooks of where we are, sort of 58 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: a check in. We are in the future you were 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: imagining today it is here. How are you feeling well? 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: I want to say first that you're in a better 61 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: position to judge the situation than I am, given your work, 62 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: and that you're talking to everybody and I'd be very 63 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: interested to hear your impressions. As for me here in Davis, California, 64 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: just looking out at the world, I have this sense 65 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 2: that everything is accelerating, and that was already true in 66 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. I had realized that the dates that 67 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 2: I had put in Ministry for the Future were all wrong, 68 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: and that I had set things out happening in the 69 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: far future of a few decades from now that were 70 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 2: going to happen one way or another in the twenty 71 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: twenty So the acceleration seems to still be speeding up. 72 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,599 Speaker 2: And I mean by this both bad things and good things. 73 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: And I suppose I should address what looks to be 74 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 2: the big reversal, which is the unexpected re election of 75 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: Donald Trump. At least it wasn't expected by me. I 76 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 2: had it called exactly backwards, and I'm still shocked and dismayed. 77 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 2: But I'll point out that my novel Ministry for the 78 00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 2: Future was written during Trump years. I was very angry then, 79 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: and it postulated a world in which the United States 80 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 2: was not a major player in dealing with climate change. 81 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: It was really the other nations of the world driving 82 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 2: the process out of necessity, and the United States being 83 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 2: a somewhat big rich kid, a narcissistic child in the 84 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: background being dragged along into the adult world of reality. 85 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 2: And maybe that's again a little bit true. But a 86 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 2: lot of things happened between twenty twenty and twenty twenty 87 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: four that are now path dependent in their own good way. 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: The good things have been speeding up as well as 89 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 2: the bad things. It's simply cheaper to build new clean 90 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: energy than old dirty energy, and this is crucial in 91 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: a capitalist world that every source of investment that isn't 92 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: government is looking for some kind of highest rate of return, 93 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: and if there is a higher rate of return that 94 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: can come to doing a green pride rather than a 95 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: dirty project, then it will get done. So some guardrails 96 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: have changed a little. The I rebuild that the bioden 97 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: Administration got passed was very important because it shows that 98 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 2: it's not just a matter of carbon quantitative easing of 99 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: the central banks and the governments cooking up new money, 100 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 2: which I think is important and really needs to happen, 101 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 2: but also simply legislation that legislators of the world, when 102 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 2: they vote in climate action, economic activities, and investments in 103 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 2: private businesses in their nation states that good things can 104 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 2: happen and that they multiply. 105 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,039 Speaker 1: I think you're right in that, Yes, clean energy has 106 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: become cheaper than dirty energy, and that fact has sunk in. 107 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: But there are ways in which dirty energy is made 108 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: cheaper artificially to keep its life going, and we're going 109 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: to see a lot more of that. But I just 110 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: wanted to come back to the ministry because to me, 111 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: it is a good framework to start from. The CLA 112 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: problem is a problem created off inequality, and there is 113 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: no way to solve it without bringing more equality to 114 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: bear on the planet. That is in the form of 115 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: wealth transfer, in technology transfer, in creating a carbon space 116 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: for developing countries to use. And COP meetings are the 117 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: place where that conversation around inequality comes to bear, and 118 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 1: the Ministry for the Future is created through the COP 119 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: framework as you imagined it. And you've been a regular 120 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: listener of this show, and I'm guessing you've followed the 121 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: coverage of what happened at COP twenty nine. How do 122 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: you think this year's cop stacks up against what you 123 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: imagine cops to be doing. 124 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 2: Well, it's pretty in line with the previous cops and 125 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: with what I portrayed in my book, which is a 126 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 2: process that is you might call necessary but not sufficient, 127 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 2: or a set of public promises in a society of 128 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: the spectacle, where at least it gets discussed every yours 129 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 2: in a way that the world pays attention to. So 130 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 2: I still think the COP process is crucial, but it's 131 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: not enough because it's built on a consensus model, so 132 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 2: it's necessarily glacially slow. So necessary but not sufficient. And 133 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: the other things have to happen that we're all doing 134 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,200 Speaker 2: in individual nation states and in the internationally, just in 135 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,839 Speaker 2: terms of trade and international relations that are more tangible 136 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: than the promises made at COP, and there good things 137 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 2: can happen. Now, I want to point out that in 138 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 2: my Ministry for the Future, it starts as a tiny, 139 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 2: little functionary agency that is trying to rally year round 140 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: support to get COP promises adhere to. And in a way, 141 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: it's kind of an invention that creates a point of 142 00:08:57,240 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 2: view for a novel that is legible in that there's 143 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:04,720 Speaker 2: characters with a plot. But at the same time, last September, 144 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 2: the UN out of the Secretary General's Office issued a 145 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: Pact for the Future during their summit of the Future, 146 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: which was their name for Climate Week last September, and 147 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: they're planning on appointing an Envoy for the Future. 148 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: That sounds a lot like the Ministry for the Future 149 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: run by the UN in your book. So did the 150 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: book inspire this pact? 151 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 2: Yes, they tell me that it did. They read it, 152 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: they thought, oh, what a good idea. And I have 153 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: to say that the UN's story is weirdly, you know, 154 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:43,599 Speaker 2: in some senses the secret masters of the universe in 155 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 2: their black helicopters and ultra powerful and then also at 156 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 2: the same time and maybe more accurately, another place of 157 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,800 Speaker 2: promises where all the nations states go to talk to 158 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: each other without any power in particular of its own. 159 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 2: The UN has a lot of consent, but it also 160 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 2: has the post World War two structure that means that 161 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: it is not a gigantically effective agency. So a novel 162 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 2: that says, oh my gosh, we got something done in 163 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: the world by something coming out of the UN. Naturally, 164 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: my novel is popular there amongst those young diplomats, and 165 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 2: they're feeling like the world is spinning out of their control, 166 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: like all of us, feel they're doing the best that 167 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: they can, and they think this is maybe one tool 168 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: to focus on the future, to focus on the narrative 169 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 2: of the member states nation states becoming member states in 170 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 2: something larger that manages to cope successfully with climate change. 171 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,839 Speaker 2: So yes, by telling that story from that point of view, 172 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: I have inspired that particular group of people. 173 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: So as a science nerd, I have always seen technology 174 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 1: growth as a way to imagine future, not just near futures, 175 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: but long futures. And that's why I love reading science fiction. 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: That's why I love reading the work you've put out 177 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 1: over the years. But there is a side of me, 178 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: as a journalist who sort of focused on the now, 179 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: who is to think about the near future because that's 180 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: my job that I'm noticing. Maybe it is politics, Maybe 181 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: it is social media, Maybe it is the way we 182 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: consume media in general. That we as a people are 183 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:32,239 Speaker 1: imagining the future less and less, or we are imagining 184 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: the future much nearer, that our horizons are not as 185 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 1: far as they used to be. Is that a perception 186 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: that is accurate or is it just in my mind? 187 00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 2: I think climate change since the pandemic is at least 188 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 2: ten times more prominent in everybody's minds the world mind 189 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:57,319 Speaker 2: than it was before. If a pandemic. Can punsch us 190 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: in the nose kill one out of every thousand per 191 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 2: and that's a success because it could have been far worse. 192 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: But we organize quickly to make up these vaccines. Climate 193 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 2: change could do that and make it even worse. It's 194 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 2: the poly crisis, as Adam Tooz calls it, all of 195 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: the crises of pollution, of pandemics coming out of the 196 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 2: natural world, and then also the various political complications of 197 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: our own making. So there's a poly crisis. Well, I 198 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: feel like attention to that in the twenty twenties is 199 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 2: such that the farther futures are and this is finally 200 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: getting to answer your questions. You don't think about, oh, 201 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: what will happen when we go to the stars, which 202 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: is always impossible. You don't even think about, oh, what 203 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:46,839 Speaker 2: about the greatness that will happen when we all live 204 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty years and it's the year twenty 205 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 2: four hundred. Who can think that when we are having 206 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: trouble thinking our way through the twenty first century. So 207 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 2: science fiction has collapsed to near future science fiction is 208 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: one way to call. 209 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: It, And that difficulty of having sort of the world 210 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: mind or so many pieces of information held together to 211 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: try and make sense of the moment, often collapses for 212 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: individuals in sort of the vibe, the emotion that is 213 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: driving you, and one that I think can be classed 214 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: as the emotion of twenty twenty five is we are 215 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: starting off on a bleak note. So is there a 216 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 1: way if I were to force you to imagine a utopia, 217 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: because I know you do that sometimes for twenty twenty five, 218 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 1: what could it. 219 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 2: Be an interesting question? And I think it's possible there 220 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 2: will be a realization that you can't count on the 221 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 2: leadership of the United States, and I mean by that 222 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 2: the leadership of the United States in the world, but 223 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: also the leadership of the United States in terms of 224 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 2: the incoming administration, which is looking to be a kind 225 00:13:56,040 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 2: of clown show. What would be the utopian story is 226 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: how there's always been idiots at the top of the 227 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 2: system and the governments of the world, the bureaucrats, the technocrats, 228 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 2: the scientists, the teachers. Society is resilient, civil society is real. 229 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 2: The ways in which we help each other out in 230 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: daily life transcend fools at the top shouting and trying 231 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 2: to erect the system. So we have a soap opera, 232 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 2: But is the soap opera actually wreaking the damage that 233 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: it pretends that it wants to wreak. Everybody actually wants 234 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: their daily life to continue as best it can in 235 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: a positive direction. Everybody's stressed out, everybody's in the precariat. 236 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 2: The last thing you need is for the soap app 237 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: that they talk to actually be meaningful. And if life 238 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: goes on for everybody in their ordinary daily existence substantially 239 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: the same. Because of the path dependencies of all of 240 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 2: our systems and the kind of resiliency of civil society, 241 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: that in itself will be a victory. And I'm not 242 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: saying it's a sure thing by any means. This is 243 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: sort of an experiment. And how strong is the American 244 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: system If there is a group at the top trying 245 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: to wreck it, deliberately trying to wreck it, we'll see 246 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 2: we are in a corrupt political system and there's huge 247 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 2: challenges to democracy. On the other hand, votes are still votes, 248 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: and it's not entirely possible to buy them. So it's 249 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: a mix, right, It's a you can't actually give up. 250 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: You can't actually start celebrating. The twenty twenties were always 251 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: going to be a kind of crux in human history, 252 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: and they still are, and it might be that the 253 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: crux goes on for a decade longer than that. It's 254 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: not at all inevitable that things are going to be 255 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 2: all right, given the tendency of the forces of disordered rising. 256 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: But the situation is not impossible either, And I guess 257 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: you know is that the utopian statement, the good result 258 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: is not impossible. 259 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: We've sort of talked about some of the things that 260 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: are big in front of our minds on the front 261 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: pages of headlines, but they're also smaller things that could 262 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: become big that I would like to touch on. So 263 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: one that I know both you and I have been 264 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: interested in is Colombia's efforts to try and move away 265 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: from fossil fuels. Now, Columbia extracts coal and oil and gas, 266 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: and its economy has been dependent on it for quite 267 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 1: some time. But it is the first sort of big 268 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: and it's not very big, but it's still a big 269 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: ish producer of fossil fuels that as signed up to 270 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: the Fossil Fuel Non Proliferation Treaty. We had Minister Susanna Muhammad, 271 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,479 Speaker 1: who has the Environment Ministry under her talk on this podcast, 272 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: And I know you've been thinking about how this is 273 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: going to play out, you wrote to me after listening 274 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: to that episode. So when you try and imagine a 275 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: future where a country has to build its entire economy 276 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: annewn to move away from the old stuff because the 277 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: old stoves just can't continue at current pace, how do 278 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: you think that happens? 279 00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for that. I'm really interested in it. 280 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 2: The Petro States, those nations that depend on more than 281 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 2: fifty percent of their income on selling their fossil fuels, 282 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: they have also signed the Paris Agreement, and so they're 283 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 2: in a double bind. They are, on the one hand 284 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 2: promising to stop selling fossil fuels. On the other hand, 285 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: that will bankrupt them and they could become failed states. 286 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 2: And we're talking about well more than a billion people 287 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 2: these Petro states. What happens then we can't afford in 288 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: social senses to have failed states left right and center. 289 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: They need help. How could it come. Well, there's the 290 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: Loss and Damage Fund, there's a Paris Agreement itself, and 291 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 2: this Fossil Fuel's Non Proliferation Treaty is really important as 292 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 2: a framework that if a nation like Columbia is a 293 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 2: great example because they're the fifth biggest coal producer on Earth. 294 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 2: If they say we want to stop, help us, help 295 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: needs to come. So at that point you need a 296 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: system that is arranged sort of like the cop processes 297 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 2: lost in damage or like the International Monetary Fund's Special 298 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: Drawing Rights, which is a mechanism to help countries that 299 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 2: are in trouble in paying their debts to get them 300 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 2: the money that they need. And so this system would 301 00:18:28,000 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 2: have to have these aspects of it that I've considered 302 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 2: and I throw it out there for others to consider. 303 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: It would need to be a discounted compensation. They can't 304 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 2: be paid as much as they would be for fossil 305 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: fuels as they stand on the market now that's like 306 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,720 Speaker 2: one six hundred trillion dollars. What you would need is 307 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: a discounted system. They take a haircut. Also, it would 308 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 2: have to be amortized so that they get paid out 309 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 2: over a century like it would have been if the 310 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: fossil fuels had been burned, and then every country that 311 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 2: signs on would be getting a steady payment that would 312 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: also be entailed. You'd be signing something like the extractive 313 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:13,439 Speaker 2: Industry's Transparency Initiative EIITI that already exists, just like the 314 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 2: Fossil Fuels Non Proliferation Treaty and the IMF Special Drawing 315 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 2: Rights and the cop Loss and Damage Fund that three 316 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: hundred billion dollars was just promised into. When a nation 317 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: signed on that line, they would then have an income 318 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 2: stream that they had promised to keep from being corrupted, 319 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: and that it would be devoted to green projects and 320 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,159 Speaker 2: the clean transition. And that way there would be a 321 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 2: a financial inducement for signing the Fossil Fuels Non Proliferation 322 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,920 Speaker 2: Treaty and then also the physical and financial help to 323 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 2: make that transition possible and save these countries from falling 324 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: into dysfunction by way of bankruptcy and social disorder. It 325 00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: seems to me it has to happen. And I've talked 326 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: to people about it at OECD and another place, other venues, 327 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 2: other people in places of power, including the UN, and 328 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 2: I have to say, it usually gets a cool response 329 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 2: or a visible shutter of oh my god. You know. 330 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: The Saudi's suggested something like that, even though they're rich 331 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 2: as creases, et cetera. Well, none of the past is 332 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: really relevant now in this respect We've got seventy five 333 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 2: percent of the fossil fuels on this earth owned by 334 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: nation states that have governments that are responsible to their people, 335 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: and accommodation simply must be made. And when the question 336 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 2: then follows, oh, well, where could that much money come from, 337 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 2: you just answer quantitative easing. You point to two thousand 338 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 2: and eight, you point to twenty twenty at the start 339 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 2: of the pandemic, trillions were generated. I'm gonna say out 340 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 2: of thin air because the mechanisms involved are complicated, But 341 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 2: in fact, federal governments, central banks make up new money 342 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 2: all the time. The money can be made. And I'll 343 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 2: end with this, John Maynar and Kane really the most 344 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: important economists for our current moment. I would say, anything 345 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 2: that we have to do, we can afford to do. 346 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: After the break, more of my conversation with sci fi 347 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: writer Kim Stanley Robinson. And by the way, if you've 348 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 1: been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate 349 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It 350 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: helps other listeners find the show. 351 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: Well. 352 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: There is a yearning in the politics today of the past, 353 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: of a period where I don't know, gender, racial, wealth, 354 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 1: hierarchies were enforced, and it feels contradictory to me, because 355 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, if I were to be born anytime in history, 356 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: and I had the choice, I would be born today, 357 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,239 Speaker 1: because it's a pretty good time to be born. You 358 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: have a whole set of diseases that we know how 359 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: to defeat. You have the ability to be able to 360 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: travel across continents, You have the ability to be able 361 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: to speak to anybody in any corner of the world 362 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: for almost free, and yet there is this yearning for 363 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: the past. How do you make sense of this yearning 364 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: for the past where none of these good things existed. 365 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 2: Well, it's a kind of a mistake. It's nostalgia, the 366 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 2: ache of the lost home. Nostalgia in Greek. Nostalgia is 367 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,520 Speaker 2: a very powerful feeling. I feel it myself, but it's 368 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: almost always a category error. What are you regretting your youth? 369 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 2: Your childhood? The world itself was just as messed up then, 370 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,400 Speaker 2: and as you point out, it was often in many 371 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:49,440 Speaker 2: material ways, much worse than now. But you don't know that. 372 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: Your lived experience is when you were younger, you were healthier, 373 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 2: Your life lay before you as a set of open 374 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: possibilities or a struggle to be had. But in any case, 375 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: nostalgia for the past is always a kind of delusion 376 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: that one has because the future is scary. Individually, you're 377 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 2: going to end up falling apart somehow and dying, so 378 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: the future never looks particularly good for the individual. For 379 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: the collective, you can imagine that things will go on 380 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 2: for our descendants and that they will be in a 381 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 2: better world, and that's the solace of being human. I 382 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 2: myself am very much in love with science right now. 383 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 2: I should be dead at this point. Medical science has 384 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 2: saved me now twice. I'm very grateful. I'm very cognizant 385 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 2: that science is a force for good. Is utn't be 386 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 2: an effort in the world that is making us all 387 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 2: of our necessities and all of our toys, And that 388 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,400 Speaker 2: when people are anti science, when they speak against it, 389 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 2: when they get sick, they'll run to a scientist. So 390 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 2: it isn't real. It's another not a nostalgia, but a 391 00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,159 Speaker 2: denial of reality that there's this collective force in the world, 392 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: a group of people following a method that is enormous 393 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: productive and is saving our lives and keeping us going, 394 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 2: and who knows what it might accomplish in the future 395 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 2: as a collective effort. 396 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: As somebody who trained in the sciences. I find it 397 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: or that most governments around the world do not have 398 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: more people with training in the sciences in the cabinet 399 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: of the highest level. But we might see some of 400 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: that coming through in the White House this time. There's 401 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: a bunch of Silicon Valley people who are yes, investors, 402 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: but have science trainings, who want to come in with 403 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: ideas that may seem quite dangerous and are there dangers 404 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: of sci fi thinking that you could articulate. 405 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 2: Well, you've got to destrand that. There's scientists and there's engineers. 406 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:53,640 Speaker 2: So Silicon Valley is not a bunch of scientists. It's 407 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 2: a bunch of computer programmers. They're engineers, and they've read 408 00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: science fiction and they have often become by being lucky, 409 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 2: and then they think they're smart. And so that crowd 410 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: in power is dangerous because they can be nice people. 411 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 2: It's suspicious as hell that ninety five percent of them 412 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: are men. That's a sign that something's wrong in that 413 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 2: whole social world. But in any case, that crowd is 414 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: not to be trusted because often politically and philosophically they're 415 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 2: intensely naive. They seize on one idea and then that 416 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 2: explains everything, and because they're rich, they think they know 417 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 2: it all. Now, I am overgeneralizing here, and in my 418 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:38,160 Speaker 2: own personal acquaintanceships with billionaires, because I am near Silicon 419 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 2: Valley and I am a science fiction writer, I've met 420 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: a few. They are very often nice guys. They are 421 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 2: very often meaning well. They are very often Democrats rather 422 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 2: than Republicans. So you have to go to soap opera 423 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 2: land to get a kind of a unicorn figure like 424 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, who is particularly wealthy but particularly volatile and unhelpful, 425 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:06,399 Speaker 2: you might say in his narcissism. Not all of the 426 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,959 Speaker 2: Silicon Valley computer billionaires who go to Washington are going 427 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 2: to be narcissists. A lot of them are going to 428 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: be solid citizens, saying I've got more money than I need, 429 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 2: why don't we have progressive taxation? And also, why don't 430 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 2: you try plan A, B and C that we have 431 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 2: carefully tested and it might work. So again, the technocrats, 432 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 2: the billionaires, none of them can be trusted to be 433 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 2: the solution. In a way, It's like saying AI will 434 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,840 Speaker 2: solve a problems. These are artificial intelligences. These individual humans. 435 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,160 Speaker 2: They're natural, but they're artificial in the sense of why 436 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,640 Speaker 2: are they so wealthy? The solution always comes from elsewhere, 437 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 2: But actually it's some more collective thing. Really. 438 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:53,479 Speaker 1: Now, last question, fun question. If there was a wish 439 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: that could be granted to you, It could be anything, 440 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: a climate fake, some investment, a particular technology. Does he change, 441 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: diplomatic breakthrough, societal change, whatever? What would you ask for 442 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five? 443 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 2: Wow, I mean this is so hard, this is this 444 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 2: is I would ask for three more wishes to come true. 445 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 2: Only yeah, I'll go back to the just the political 446 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 2: economy level, because really this is Bloomberg Green, and I 447 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: want to say again, thanks to Bloomberg Green. I followed 448 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 2: it intensely through the last COP twenty nine by far 449 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 2: the best reporting of COP twenty nine that I'm aware of, 450 00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 2: and just keeping people aware of the world of politics 451 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 2: and economy, of business and government in interaction with each other. 452 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: It's it's really crucial stuff. So at that level, I 453 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 2: would say the European Union shows what happens when nation 454 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 2: states become member states, and so the European Union is 455 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: powerful even though it includes many little countries that are 456 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: in economic trouble, but they're part of a larger hole. 457 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 2: They hang together. It's fractious, it's difficult, it's hard to 458 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: work it, but it's a change of consciousness in that 459 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 2: when you're a member state, you have a different financial, legal, 460 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: and emotional set of circumstances that guide you. If something 461 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 2: like the UN or the WTO or the OECD taken 462 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 2: seriously as if those organizations had teeth and you had 463 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 2: to do what was agreed there because you were a 464 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,439 Speaker 2: member in good standing, well that would make a huge difference. Now, 465 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 2: who's most likely to ignore and flaunt that forever? The 466 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 2: United States of America. The US has this slim majority 467 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 2: that lives in a fantasy of, oh, we can go 468 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: it all alone. We're the best, not the best, can't 469 00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 2: go it alone. These fantasies hopefully will lose at the 470 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 2: ballot box after the probably spectacularly stupid political events at 471 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: the top over the next couple of years, and then 472 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 2: maybe that would be like the last flirting out of 473 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: some resentful minority that's losing its power to the world majority. 474 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: Who knows, But here's my wish that every nation state 475 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:18,479 Speaker 2: took its membership in the larger organizations dead seriously as 476 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 2: a guide to action, and then climate change would have 477 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 2: a chance to be solved by us. 478 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: Well, I didn't see it coming that. You want the 479 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: G twenty to be a real power. Thank you, Sam, 480 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: Thank you Akshatt. 481 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure. 482 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Zero. And now for the 483 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: sound of the week. That's the sound of the trailer 484 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 1: of a n teen eighty three film called Endgame, which 485 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: takes place in a fictional twenty twenty five, but of 486 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: course it sounds a lot like nineteen eighty three, and 487 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: clearly no one imagined electric vehicles would be a thing. 488 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please take a moment to 489 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: rate or review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 490 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 1: Share this episode with a friend or with someone who 491 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: works for the United Nations. Zero's producer is Mighty le Rao. 492 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's head of podcast is Sage Bauman, and head of 493 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: Talk is Brendan nunim Our. Theme music is composed by 494 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: wonder Lee. Special thanks to Shuan Wagner, Shan chan, Ethan Steinberg, 495 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: and Jessica beck I, am Aksha Thrati back So