1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: For those not already familiar with the story of Marty Tancliffe, 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,960 Speaker 1: his case began on the night of September sixth, nineteen 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: eighty eight, when Marty was just about to start his 4 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: senior year of high school in an affluent area of 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: Long Island, New York. Marty's father was an entrepreneur and 6 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: investor who was playing poker with some friends and business 7 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: associates in the house. That night, Marty awoke to two 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: absolutely gruesome scenes in which both of his loving parents 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: had been brutally beaten and stabbed. His mother was dead, 10 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: his father was dying. When authorities arrived, they kept him 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 1: separate from any of the adults in his life as 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: they focused their investigations solely on Marty instead of Marty's 13 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: father's business partner, Jerry Steerman, who all signs pointed to 14 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: being the obvious suspect in this awful crime. In our 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: original twenty seventeen release of Marty's story, we touched on 16 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: many of these details, but at that time, with ongoing 17 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: civil litigation, we were not at liberty to delve more 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: deeply into the details of the reinvestigation of Marty's case 19 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: that ultimately led to his exoneration. In this episode, you'll 20 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: hear excerpts of that original interview, which included both Marty 21 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: and false confession expert Saul Cassen, to set the stage 22 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: for not only the evidence and witnesses that made Marty's 23 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: freedom possible, as well as all the amazing things Marty 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,679 Speaker 1: has been able to accomplish since winning his freedom, but 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: also what Marty intends to do to bring closure to 26 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: this harrowing tragedy. This is Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. I'm especially 28 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 1: excited today because I have two people who I consider 29 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: to be well, let's just call it what it is. 30 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: They're heroes of mine, but for very different sets of reasons. 31 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Marty Tankleff is here today. Marty is an exonery who 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted of murdering his parents, which I get 33 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,399 Speaker 1: the chills just hearing myself say that, and he's going 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:19,119 Speaker 1: to share his remarkable story of going through what could 35 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: be considered one of the most traumatic experiences that any 36 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,720 Speaker 1: human being could ever endure, and his subsequent triumph post exoneration. 37 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: You will be amazed at what he's been able to 38 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: accomplish and overcome, we also have today. Saul cassen Saw 39 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: pioneered in the eighties the scientific study of false confessions 40 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: by introducing a taxonomy that distinguished between three types of 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: false confessions, voluntary, compliant, and internalized that is universally accepted today. 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: He has recently studied forensic confirmation biases and the impact 43 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: that confessions have on judges, juries, lay witnesses, forensic science examiners, 44 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: and the plea bargaining process. He is widely considered the 45 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: foremost expert on false confession. So welcome both of you. 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: Thanks for coming in and joining us today. 47 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: Thank you for having us. 48 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: Marty, let's start with you, So let's go back to 49 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: you grew up in Long Island. 50 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: I grew up in an affluent area called Beltan, New York, 51 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: which is a little hamlet in Port Jreffson, New York, 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 2: north Shore, Suffolk County. I went to Port Joffson High School, 53 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 2: where the norm was we drove nice cars, we went 54 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: on boats. And what happened to me was not something 55 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: myself or anyone in my neighborhood could have ever imagined. 56 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 1: No, no one could imagine it. You had a happy 57 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: childhood nuclear family, right, you and your sister. 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: Your parents idyllic, A little bit more idyllic because I 59 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 2: was adopted, so my parents were older. So a lot 60 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: of what we did growing up, my father live vicariously 61 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 2: through me because he didn't have a very good childhood. 62 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: So you know, we had the boats, the ATVs, we 63 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: traveled a lot. People used to joke that I was 64 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: a spoiled kid. I was, but my father instilled amazing 65 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 2: work values in me. I was working since I was 66 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: probably eleven or twelve years. 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 1: Old, and he was the bagel king, right. 68 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: My father was an entrepreneur who invested with Jerry Steuerman, 69 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 2: who was then known as the bagel King of Long Island. 70 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: My father had invested over a half a million dollars 71 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 2: with Jerry in his bagel stores and horses, and in 72 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 2: the summer of nineteen eighty eight their relationship significantly deteriorated. 73 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: What I later learned was is that we believe my 74 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: father learned that the bagel businesses may have been a 75 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 2: money wandering operation for Jerry's son, Todd's drug dealing business. 76 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: And we're talking hard, hard drugs. 77 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: Todd was arrested went to prison for possession of cocaine, marijuana, 78 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: and other drugs, and he served time in New York 79 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 2: State prisons. But my father was a tough older man. 80 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 2: Nothing would stop him. And one of the things that 81 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: he was involved with was is there was a weekly 82 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: poker game. September sixth was his night to hold the 83 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: weekly poker game, and one of the members at that 84 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: game was Jerry Struerman. My father was a type of man. 85 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: It didn't matter, you know, how much threatening Jerry Struman did. 86 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 2: And there were threats. We later learned about two weeks 87 00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 2: before September sixth, Jerry Struman threatened to cut my father's 88 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 2: tongue out, and it got so bad that my father 89 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 2: was even looking into buying a shotgun because he was fearful. 90 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: Now we've set the stage. There's the poker game, right. 91 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: There's obviously a tense environment right with the two of 92 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: them in the room. But you went to sleep. 93 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 94 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: day of my high school year. I was going to 95 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: be a senior. And I woke up and my life 96 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,360 Speaker 2: was never the same again. The lights were on in 97 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 2: my house, the house wasn't locked up. 98 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: Walked through the house, and they were upstairs. 99 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: It's a ranch house. There's a very long ranch house. 100 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: Where the bedrooms were in one end of the house, 101 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 2: where the card game was was in the complete opposite end. 102 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: Of the house, right, So you wouldn't have heard any. 103 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 2: Would have heard anything. And I discovered my father who 104 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 2: was still sitting in his office chair, and he was alive, 105 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: and he was bleeding. 106 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: And what'd you do? 107 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 2: I called nine to one one and I followed their instructions, right. 108 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: They told you to wrap them as best you could, 109 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: gave you some medical tips whatever, try to stop the bleeding, 110 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, right. 111 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: And within a short period of time, law enforcement showed. 112 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: Up at the house. Where's your mom? 113 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: My mother was actually in her bedroom. Cops come and 114 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: immediately they removed me. 115 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: From the house. 116 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: And what I kind of can say now is that 117 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: the process of questioning me, trying to find out what 118 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,040 Speaker 2: happened started almost immediately. Even when I had family members 119 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 2: show up that morning, there was this immediate separation. When 120 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 2: my brother in law showed up, he was ripped away. 121 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 2: When my godfather, who was also the family attorney, showed up, 122 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 2: I saw him. He never saw me. But McCready, who 123 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: is the lead detective. His name is Kay James McCready 124 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: was the lead detective on the case. Ran to him 125 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: and basically told him I was already on the way 126 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 2: to the hospital. I wasn't at the house. Even though 127 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: I was at the house, I was told consistently I 128 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: was being taken to the hospital. Unfortunately I was never 129 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 2: taken to the hospital. I ended up being taken to 130 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 2: police headquarters. 131 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: At this point, were you aware that your mom had 132 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: been killed? Yes, so you're in a state of total shock, panic. 133 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: Words can't describe it. 134 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: Your parents were beaten to death. Is that right? 135 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 2: There was a bludgeon instrument and a knife, and to 136 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 2: this day neither one has been discovered. And there was 137 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: some forensic evidence which I can talk about. There was 138 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 2: glove prints, so whoever did do this were wearing gloves 139 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:45,600 Speaker 2: that they still haven't found the gloves. So, I mean 140 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: there's all these little things that actually the jury was 141 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: aware of, but they chose just to ignore. 142 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: So they took you to police headquarters because and obviously 143 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: this whole sort of pattern is emerging right where they 144 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: wanted to. They had an agenda. 145 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, at that day, I didn't 146 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: know that when I was seventeen years old. My father 147 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: was the police commissioner of our little community. I was 148 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 2: raised to trust law enforcement, believe in them. Law enforcement 149 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: wouldn't lie to you, they wouldn't deceive you. Unfortunately, that's 150 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: everything that they did that morning. 151 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: Right, And you're in an extremely fragile state, and you 152 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: need help, right, you need someone to help you. You're 153 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: seventeen years old, right. We know that they have misled 154 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: as it probably a nice way to put it, his 155 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: family guardian at this point, right, your godfather, who was 156 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: also the only lawyer that was available to you at 157 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: this time. 158 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: They kind of mislet everybody though. I mean I had 159 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: other cousins and aunts and uncles who were at the hospitals, 160 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: and they were lied to too. They were told, Marty's 161 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:41,319 Speaker 2: on the way to the hospital. Marty's on the way 162 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: to the hospital. 163 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: Right. So they're basically doing everything they can to prevent 164 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: you from having any responsible guardian or legal representative that 165 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: might be able to stand in the way of them 166 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: getting the conviction that they wanted, regardless of truth. 167 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: Yes, there was no truth seeking here. I mean, you 168 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 2: have a man who was business partners with my father, 169 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 2: half a million dollars involved was there the night before. 170 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: My father also had in the weeks prior, had demanded 171 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: he had two notes fifty thousand dollars. Back in the 172 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: days after the murders, Jerry Struman cleaned out a joint 173 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 2: bank account. He faked his death. He fled to California. 174 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: He had a hairwave back then, and he went to 175 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: a club that he wasn't a member of. He had 176 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,079 Speaker 2: five or six different aliases at that moment. But law 177 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: enforcement never consider him suspect. And every time I tell people, 178 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 2: you know, the average person would say, well, how is 179 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: he not a suspect? 180 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: I mean, you could have stopped that. He faked his 181 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: own death. So let's get to the interrogation and the 182 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: false confession in prison and the whole saga. So let's 183 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you're obviously very familiar with Mary's case. You've 184 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: known Marty since nineteen ninety three, is all right. 185 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 3: He started writing letters to me from prison in ninety three. 186 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,600 Speaker 1: So here's Marty in a state of panic and shock 187 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: and grief. And as we discussed, he's still a child. 188 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,719 Speaker 1: And his confession is different than any of the other 189 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: ones I've studied, right, because it may or may not 190 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: have ever even actually happened. Right. Usually they actually get 191 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: somebody to say something on video, or they'll get a 192 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: written statement or something. But in Marty's case, it's much 193 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 1: more highly nuanced, isn't it. 194 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, And in Marty's case, You've got to ask 195 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: yourself the first question, why did Marty, a seventeen year 196 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 3: old without a criminal record, without a history of violence, 197 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,599 Speaker 3: with good parents and good relationships and an affluent community, 198 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 3: Why would Marty kill his parents in a brutal way, 199 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,679 Speaker 3: in a brutal in the most brutal of ways. And 200 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 3: you have to ask yourself the question, how in God's 201 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: name did he become their suspect? 202 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 2: You know, most people said, well, you know, he did 203 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: it for the money, because they thought my parents were affluent. 204 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 2: The way the wills were structured, I would have gotten everything. 205 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: And we later learned that law enforcement never really understood 206 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: the way the wills and never looked into the way 207 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 2: the wills were structured. I wasn't going to benefit financially 208 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: until I was twenty five and I was seventeen, and so, 209 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 2: you know, as one of my aunts said, what was 210 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 2: he supposed to do from seventeen to twenty five, live 211 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: on the streets. 212 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: So Saul there he is in the interrogation room, alone. 213 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: Alone, seventeen, not street wise, never been in trouble before, 214 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 3: never had to worry about how do you behave when 215 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 3: you get picked up by police. He had done nothing wrong. 216 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,440 Speaker 3: And the funny thing about innocent people is even if 217 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: they had read him as miranda rights, he would have 218 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 3: waived those rights right. Most people do, so Miranda becomes 219 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 3: not a safeguard that's particularly effective at this point. Keep 220 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: in mind, they've got him in police headquarters. The whole 221 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 3: family is with his father, who is dying but still 222 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 3: alive in the hospital. That's where Marty wants to be. 223 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: So he's already in a state where he's motivated to cooperate. 224 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 3: And they start asking him questions about what he saw, 225 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 3: how he saw it, what had happened, and he gives 226 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 3: them answers, and the answers are consistent. They don't believe him, 227 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 3: They tell him they don't believe them. They asked for 228 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 3: the story to be told again, and they're searching for inconsistencies, 229 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 3: and they're calling him a liar, and they're not believing 230 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: the story that he keeps telling over and over again. 231 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: But then they shift gears, and they shift gears toward 232 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 3: a procedure now where they start to lie about the evidence. Now, 233 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 3: the average American doesn't realize that in the United States, 234 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 3: police are allowed to bring in a suspect and lie 235 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 3: about the evidence. They're allowed to say to the suspect, 236 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: we have your fingerprints on the murder weapon, even if 237 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 3: that's not true. What happened in Marty's case is they 238 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: bring them in they say, well, you know, it appears 239 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: that your mother was in a struggle and there's hair 240 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 3: in her grasp and it turns out it's your hair. 241 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 3: We did the analysis. It's your hair, and that confused 242 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 3: Marty wasn't true, but he got confused as to how 243 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 3: that was possible. And then because it was such a 244 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 3: bloody scene, it was two bloody scenes, it just wasn't 245 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 3: enough blood on Marty to account for that. They suggested 246 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,839 Speaker 3: to him that he had showered before calling nine to 247 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 3: one one. He said, no, I didn't use the shower. 248 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,239 Speaker 3: They came back and said, well, we did a humidity 249 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 3: test in your bathroom and we found that the shower 250 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 3: had been used that morning. A humidity test. I don't 251 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 3: believe even on CSI, they've given us humidity test. Now 252 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 3: they've delivered two lies, and then the detective delivers the 253 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,319 Speaker 3: ultimate lie. He leaves the room. There are two detectives 254 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 3: in there. The lead detective McCready leaves the room, stages 255 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: a phone call, and comes back to deliver the news 256 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 3: to Marty. Marty, I've got good news and I got 257 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 3: bad news. I just spoke to the folks at the hospital. 258 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 3: The good news is your father has come out of 259 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 3: his coma. He's regained consciousness. The bad news is he 260 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 3: said you did it. Now, think about this for a 261 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: nuck and sick, insane. You've got a seventeen year old 262 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 3: and you're now delivering one lie after another, culminating in 263 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 3: a lie that to Marty, the person he trusts most 264 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 3: in his life has just said he committed this crime. 265 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: And not only did Marty of course, had no choice 266 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 3: but to believe that that evidence, because he doesn't believe 267 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 3: police would lie to him. Certainly, not like that. Even 268 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 3: McCready's partner believed that presentation. So what choice Marty have 269 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 3: now but to wonder, how is it possible that they 270 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 3: have this kind of objective evidence? My father doesn't lie, 271 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: he said. Marty has almost no cognitive choice but to 272 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 3: accept that information. 273 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: Well, because he's got two things right. His father doesn't 274 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: lie and the cops don't lie. Right, These are the 275 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: two things that he believes exactly. So those things lead 276 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: to one conclusion. 277 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 3: One conclusion, I must have done it. And the conversation 278 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 3: turns to memory consciousness, the possibility of sleepwalking and doing 279 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 3: it without awareness, and generate theories from Marty to explain 280 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: how come you don't remember doing this. So we know 281 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: that that was the nature of the conversation. We know 282 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 3: that for some degree of transient time, Marty became confused 283 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 3: about even his own innocence. His confession was a handwritten statement, 284 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: handwritten by the detective, that is inaccurate as a description 285 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 3: of the crime. It doesn't complete itself, it's actually ends 286 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 3: in midsense, and it is uns signed. This confession, the 287 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,400 Speaker 3: so called confession, was written by the detective and not 288 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,760 Speaker 3: signed by Marty. And yet that allegation of that confession 289 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 3: is the one and only piece of evidence that was 290 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: used to convict him. 291 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: You're at trial. You still believe that justice is going. 292 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: To be done at trial? Still believe it? I mean, 293 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: this is what the lawyers are telling me. The system works. 294 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 2: I was innocent. I testified on my own behalf. The 295 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: prosecutor had charged me with intentional murder and depraved indifference murder. 296 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: So when we got called back in, the first verdict 297 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 2: that I was read was not guilty, and then all 298 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: of a sudden, the second one was guilty. The one 299 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: thing I vividly remember is the walk after they read 300 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: the guilty verdicts over to the county jails. They had 301 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 2: these tunnel systems, and I remember just I felt like 302 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: I was being led like a dog because I was 303 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: just listening. And I remember getting to the property room, 304 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: and I remember the property room after saying what are 305 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 2: you doing here, Marty? And I go why else would 306 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: I be here? And then everything else went blank for 307 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: about the next six or seven days. 308 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: But now you're thrown into this environment. You're in maximum 309 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: security prison, Is that right? Yeah? 310 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: I was. Basically every day it's a fight for your 311 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: life because you never know in maximum security facilities what 312 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 2: could happen, whether it be the gangs going to war 313 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: with each other, the ulcers taking you know, they're aggression 314 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: out on you, or just the random attacks that occur 315 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 2: just for no reason whatsoever. 316 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, we know that people are being killed 317 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 1: every day in prisons in America, sometimes by guards. 318 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: Even absolutely for me, my case was very high profile, 319 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 2: so prisoners knew about the case. Guards knew about the case. 320 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: And I had a guy come up to me and 321 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: he said, Lilizen, he goes, if you want to survive, 322 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: he says, don't do drugs, don't get involved in drugs, 323 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: don't get involved homosexuality, don't get involved in gambling gangs, 324 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: he said, and work your way into the college program 325 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 2: with the lay library. 326 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: He said. 327 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: One of the hardest things is once you're innocent, is 328 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 2: getting out, he said, But you'll figure out a way 329 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: to do it. My lawyer said, okay, what's never been 330 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 2: done here before? And we said a full investigation. And 331 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 2: that's when I started looking for private investigators and ended 332 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 2: up hiring j Salpeter. And one of the things that 333 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 2: Jay said to me was, if you're innocent, hire me. 334 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: If you're guilty, don't. I said, I'm innocent, I'll hire you. 335 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 2: I just find the truth, Jai. And it took years. 336 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 2: You ended up serving six three hundred and thirty eight days, 337 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:28,439 Speaker 2: which is about seventeen and a. 338 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 4: Half years. 339 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: Now that we're up to speed from our twenty seventeen release, 340 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: and with Barty's civil litigation out of the way, he 341 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: was finally able to tell us about the mountain of 342 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: exculpatory evidence that they built, how his freedom came to pass, 343 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 1: all of the amazing things he's been able to accomplish, 344 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: and of course his plans to finally bring the people 345 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: who conspired to murder his parents to justice. Witness is 346 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: an evidence slowly emerged over the years pointing towards a 347 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: conspiracy involving at least Peter Kent, Joseph Creeden, Glenn Harris, 348 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 1: and of course the Steuermans and Moore continues to come 349 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: to light to this day. But the process started back 350 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 1: in the early nineties when a woman named Carlene Kovacs 351 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: went to a party. 352 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: In the early nineteen nineties, Joseph Creeden, who was an 353 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 2: enforcer for Todd Steuermann, was at a party where he 354 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 2: admitted his involvement in the murders to Carlene Kovaks. So 355 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: the idea that Todd Struman and Jerry Schuman were responsible 356 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: for this not only from day one, but every year 357 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 2: subsequent to my conviction investigation, more and more evidence would 358 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: come forward, continuously pointing back towards the Steuermans, And it 359 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: was around nineteen ninety two, nineteen ninety three when we 360 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: presented the DA's office with that information. And as the 361 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,679 Speaker 2: years would go on throughout the nineteen nineties and the 362 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 2: two thousand's, the court system failed me. 363 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: It feels to me like the tides started to turn 364 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: around two thousand and three when you hired Jay Salpeter. 365 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 2: Jay started from the very beginning, it was kind of 366 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 2: like who benefited financially and let's just start branching out 367 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 2: from there. The criminal ties around the Steuermans was pretty 368 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: well known when Jay took on this case of investigating it, 369 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: and he just started looking at Todd Steuerman and Jerry 370 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: Steuerman and started branching out, and eventually they found Glenn Harris. 371 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 2: Glenn Harris said something to the effect that I've been 372 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 2: waiting for this day for twelve or thirteen years. 373 00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: Glenn Harris davi a Swarren statement saying that he had 374 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: been high fired by Steuerman to drive the two hitmen, 375 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 1: Joe Creeden and Peter Kent two and from the Tankliffe 376 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: House where you lived on the night of the cline. 377 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 2: And that just kind of started the snowball effect. We 378 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 2: assembled a body of evidence of witnesses and in two 379 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: thousand and five we presented everything to the Suffolk County 380 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 2: DA with the hopes that with their subpoena power and 381 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: wiretop power, that they would actually take a real serious 382 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: look at this case. And we said, you know, if 383 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 2: you don't do anything after forty five days, we will 384 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 2: file a post conviction motion in New York. And we 385 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: learned that it wasn't until the forty fourth day that 386 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: they actually went out and went to interview the first witness, 387 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 2: and we thereafter filed a post conviction motion. Judge Braslow 388 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: granted a hearing, and throughout the hearing of very technical 389 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: issues came up and more witnesses came forward. 390 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: Throughout the hearing, Carlene Kovacs claimed that Joe Creeden told 391 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: her about how he and another man hid in the 392 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: bushes outside the tank of house, evaded capture and got 393 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: rid of the bloody clothes. And then there was more. 394 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: There were family members of the killers right, there were 395 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: murder weapons that were actually had been hidden that were found. 396 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: Am I wrong about that? 397 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 2: Marty? So the culminating witness at the hearing was Joseph 398 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: Creeden's son, who said that his father confessed to him 399 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 2: of his involvement. There was a pipe that was discovered 400 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 2: on a piece of property that Glen Harris said a 401 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 2: pipe was thrown. Nobody knows if the pipe was actually used, 402 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: but what are the chances that somebody could know or say, look, 403 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 2: go search on this piece of property. We threw something 404 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: there eighteen years ago, seventeen years ago and it was found. 405 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 2: The actual murder weapons then have never been found. 406 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: By now we're talking about two thousand and five, two 407 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: thousand and six, the defense your team had assembled twenty witnesses, 408 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: twenty who all painted collectively a picture of how Storman 409 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: had orchestrated these murders. Two of the witnesses had seen 410 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: McCready with Storman just before the murders. Hello. There was 411 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,359 Speaker 1: also the matter of the murder weapon not having been found. 412 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,600 Speaker 1: There was a bloody stain of what appeared to be 413 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 1: a knife imprinted on one of our lead tank lif sheets, 414 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: but no match was found, suggesting that someone had taken it. 415 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: But justice was right around the corner right. So March seventeenth, 416 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: two thousand and six, the petition for the newtrial was denied. 417 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: But then December two thousand and seven, tell us about. 418 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: That, Well, in New York State, after you follow post 419 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 2: conviction motion, you have to seek permission to appeal the case. Thankfully, 420 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 2: the Appel Division that had denied me relief in nineteen 421 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 2: ninety three had granted me permission to hear my case, 422 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: and my lawyers argued before four amazing judges in September 423 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: of two thousand and seven, and I remember it was 424 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: December that I was calling home, calling the lawyers every 425 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 2: single day, trying to find out how the decision come down. 426 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 2: And I had four different appeals in the Appella Division, 427 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 2: including one for a new trial, one for DNA testing. 428 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: So I was finally able to get through to one 429 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: of my lawyer's offices and the receptionist said to me, 430 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: she's like, don't tell Bruce, I told you, but we 431 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 2: won the big one. And my legs started to shake 432 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 2: a little bit, and I kind of almost didn't believe 433 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: it because it was kind of that moment when you 434 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 2: are just waiting for that day, for day after day, 435 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: year after year, and when I finally spoke to Bruce Barquett, 436 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: I'll never forget his words. He said, back your shit, 437 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 2: You're coming home, and you'll never see the inside of 438 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 2: a jail cell again. And at that very moment, don't 439 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 2: ask me why I said this, but I was kind 440 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: of sarcastic, and I said, Bruce, and I said, I've 441 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,639 Speaker 2: been studying the little long enough. I said, it's an 442 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: oral agreement that I'm going to hold you to it. 443 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: And he kept his word. I was brought down to 444 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 2: the Suvin County Jail December twenty sixth, the day after Christmas, 445 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:30,119 Speaker 2: and on December twenty seventh, I was freed and I 446 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,720 Speaker 2: have never returned to a jail cell since. So Bruce 447 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: Barkak kept his work. 448 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: In the book A Criminal Injustice, which is I recommend 449 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: so highly that it reads like a Grisham novel, but 450 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: it's true and you lived it. And in that book, 451 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: one of the things that sticks out so much and 452 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 1: about your story is that Suffolk County was like a 453 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,680 Speaker 1: criminal enterprise, and I'm talking about the justice system. Can 454 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: you describe it well? 455 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 2: I think it was best described. I think it was 456 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: William Hellerstein described it as the wild wild West of 457 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 2: law enforcement and the court system. And essentially he said 458 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: is that in Suffolk County they do whatever the hell 459 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 2: they want to do, whenever they want to do it, 460 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 2: because they are almighty. And I think that almighty attitude 461 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: can be traced back to the homicide division where in 462 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 2: the eighties they used to wear these shirts that said 463 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 2: ninety nine percent and that referred to their confession and 464 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: conviction rates for homicide cases, and they were proud of it. 465 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 2: And Suvia County has a long history of tourmoil and corruption. 466 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 2: When the Attorney General reinvestigated the case during some of 467 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: the post conviction proceedings, they uncovered forensics that were in 468 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 2: the possession of Suba County the entire time, and they 469 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 2: proved to be exculpatory in nature. It just goes to 470 00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:00,639 Speaker 2: the depths of how sinister and evil the criminal injustice 471 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 2: system was in Suffolk County back then, even up to 472 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 2: recently where the district attorney that was in office during 473 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 2: my post conviction litigation, Tom Spoda, was recently criminally charged 474 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: while he was a district attorney. When Tom Spoda was 475 00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,879 Speaker 2: in private practice, he and his firm had represented Todd 476 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 2: Steuerman and Jerry Stuerman and the chief of police, William Burke, 477 00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: was also criminally charged and he went to prison. 478 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. And this gets deeper and deeper because mccreedy, 479 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,520 Speaker 1: the detective, was under investigation for perjury. And let's not 480 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: forget mccreedy went into business with your sister, who became 481 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: the heir to the family fortune. 482 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 2: Shortly after my conviction, my half sister threw a celebratory 483 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: party at a country club for family and friends, and 484 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: right around the same time went into business with the 485 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: money she received from my parents' estate with the lead 486 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: detective who put me in prison, and they opened up 487 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 2: a bar restaurant, diggero Dell's, in a Riverhead, New York. 488 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 489 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 2: I didn't want to go down in history as being 490 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 2: known as the person who was convicted of murdering my 491 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 2: parents because I didn't do it, and nobody stands crimly 492 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: charged or convicted of those murders as of today. I 493 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 2: knew that I wanted to continue fighting till the truth 494 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,399 Speaker 2: came out, and we continue to explore every lead, and 495 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: even to this day, we've had new witnesses who have 496 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: come forward. And the only reason why they've come forward 497 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: was because Peter Kin and Joseph Krein have died. They've 498 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,600 Speaker 2: come forward with exculpatory evidence that no one has ever 499 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 2: heard before that I'm hoping by the end of the 500 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 2: year it will get out there. 501 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: Are you still hoping for the authorities to do what 502 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 1: they should have done decades ago and prosecute the people 503 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: responsible for this tragedy. 504 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 2: There is a new district attorney who ran on a 505 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: line of exposing injustice. He set up a conviction integrity unit. 506 00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: He has clearly stated time and time again that he 507 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 2: owes no allegiance to the prior administration, and I'm currently 508 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 2: working on putting a package together. I'm confident that any 509 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: fair minded prosecutor, if they look at the body of 510 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 2: evidence that we have now, someone should be criminally charged. 511 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 2: And I'm going to be asking the Suvin County District 512 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 2: Attorney's office to reopen the case. 513 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: July twenty second, two thousand and eight, the charges were 514 00:28:56,760 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: dismissed and your life began again or anew I mean, 515 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: you hit the ground running, and there's so much to 516 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 1: talk about still, because there's the federal civil suit against 517 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 1: New York State and the Suffolk County Police Department. And 518 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: this was not a frivolous suit. In fact that July 519 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen, New York State settled for three point three 520 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 1: seven five million, and in twenty eighteen Suffolk County settled 521 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: for another ten They didn't do that willingly. They did 522 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,200 Speaker 1: that because they had no way out. I mean, you 523 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: had them literally dead to rights, and then you go 524 00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: and graduate from law school. Now, I mean, seriously, Marty, like, 525 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: are you trying to make the rest of us look? 526 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: It's unbelievable. 527 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 2: I was just going to say, is that you know 528 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 2: you when you say get up and start running. It 529 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: was three weeks after I was out of prison if 530 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 2: I started finishing on my bachel's grey at Hatstraw, and 531 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 2: I knew that, you know what I went through, no 532 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 2: one should go through, and if there was somebody that 533 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 2: could help make a difference, it would be me. I 534 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: am out now, I'm a lawyer, also an adjunct professor 535 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 2: at Georgetown University and a Toroural law school. 536 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,479 Speaker 1: There's a very hard to miss message of what the 537 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 1: rest of us have as an excuse not to live 538 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: out our dreams. I mean, that's an unbelievable transformation, and 539 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: I am so so proud of you. So you're now 540 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: the head of the prisoner and civil rights litigation group 541 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: at Metcalf and Metcalf you're living your best life. And 542 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 1: they say living well is the best revenge. I mean, 543 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: I think you can attest to that, but we can't 544 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 1: leave alone. The other thing that you're doing now, which 545 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to guess is probably the most rewarding thing 546 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: other than your family of everything, which is of course 547 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: the making an exodary program. You're, of course, as we 548 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: talked about, an adjunct professor at Georgetown, let's just say 549 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: that again, you're a professor at Georgetown, like, what the 550 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: hell anyway, and you're working with your childhood friend and 551 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: my dear friend Mark Howard co teaching a class called 552 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 1: making an Axannery. And one of the students from that 553 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,440 Speaker 1: class was on this show in our episode of the 554 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: Awful Case of Terrell Barrows, and she said, and I 555 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: think any of the students would say that her life 556 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: has been forever changed by this experience. So please, anyone 557 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,479 Speaker 1: go back and listen to the Terrell Barrows episode. Terrell 558 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: really needs and deserves our help. Listen and you'll get 559 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: some ideas of how you may be able to make 560 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: a difference in his life. He's just as innocent as 561 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: Marty was and is so tell us about some of 562 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: the people that you've helped wherever you want to go. 563 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 2: With this, just to get people a little background and 564 00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 2: making fund a lot more on our website, making agxgnery 565 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: dot com. Mark and I have been for instance, we 566 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: were three years old going to lovew preschool and after 567 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: I got out, Mark would invite me to come down 568 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 2: to his class and speak to him about my experience 569 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 2: about the criminal justice system. And as the years went on, 570 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: we start talking about the idea about teaching a class together, 571 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 2: and the idea of making exona re kind of came 572 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: together one day, just us talking taking undergraduate students and 573 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 2: having them reinvestigate real cases of men and women in prison, 574 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,520 Speaker 2: try to track down new witnesses and try to develop 575 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 2: a body of evidence that could help get them exonerated. 576 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: And their final project was to create short documentaries. And 577 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:31,320 Speaker 2: we started the class in twenty eighteen and one of 578 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 2: our cases was Valentina Dixon, and our students were able 579 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 2: to uncover enough evidence that was shared with Valentino's lawyer 580 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: and he was exonerated in September of that year. And 581 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 2: each year our students have done this amazing work, and 582 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 2: there's not a single student who's taken our class that 583 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: hasn't walked away and said that the opportunity to try 584 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 2: to to impact someone's life is life altering for them. 585 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:09,280 Speaker 2: Our students become friends with the individuals whore incarcerated. Tragically, 586 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 2: John Moss, who was from our first semester, our students 587 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: uncovered evidence that convinced the Innocence Project to represent him. Tragically, 588 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 2: he passed away and Martin Luther King Junior Day this year, 589 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 2: but the students became so close to him and his 590 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 2: family they went to his funeral. I mean, it's kind 591 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 2: of unheard of that students can develop a bond like that. 592 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: Every one of the student groups, even after they've graduated, 593 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: continue to work on any of the cases that they 594 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 2: were connected with, and if they're in a position where 595 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 2: they can't work, they want to know what's going on. 596 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 2: Because in Valentinero Dixon's case, when he walked free in 597 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: September of twenty eighteen, Ellie and Julie, who were two 598 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: of the young women that worked on his case, flew 599 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: back from France and England to be there when he 600 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: walked out of prison. And I think it's something that 601 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 2: they will never forget their entire life. And Valentino has 602 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 2: said time and time again that they have lifelong friends 603 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 2: and if they ever need anything, he would be there 604 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 2: for them. The relationship you develop with these men and 605 00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 2: women is just different. You know. We walk in and 606 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: we tell our students that there's no guarantees here other 607 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: than you putting one thousand percent in, and they do 608 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,760 Speaker 2: more than that. Our students can sometimes work thirty hours 609 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 2: a week outside of class. They travel around the country, 610 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: they track down witnesses, they confront former prosecutors. In one case, 611 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: they confronted a krly sitting judge who was a former prosecutor. 612 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: There really is no fear that our students have. And 613 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,360 Speaker 2: it's just to me an amazing experience having the opportunity 614 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 2: to work with them, and it really even feel like work. 615 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: From times, it feels like such an honor and pleasure 616 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 2: to work with students that want to come to class, 617 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 2: want to work, want to sacrifice their time. And I 618 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:15,839 Speaker 2: remember this year when the idea of spring break are 619 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 2: going to see somebody in a maximum security prison during 620 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 2: spring break. Our students said, who cares about spring break? 621 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:24,040 Speaker 2: Let's go to prison. 622 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,880 Speaker 1: Who cares about spring break? Let's go to a prison. Wow, 623 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:31,439 Speaker 1: that's really going to say it all. And the fact 624 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: is that those of us who work in this area 625 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: know that the first time you get to be a part, 626 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:40,640 Speaker 1: I don't care how small the part is of helping 627 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: somebody out of this Kafka esque nightmare. It is unlike 628 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,839 Speaker 1: anything else that I've ever experienced. And it makes me 629 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,799 Speaker 1: feel useful. You know, you now get to live that 630 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: to the tenth power or to the nth degree, you 631 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 1: what ever you want to call it, because you're doing 632 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: it again and again, and you're doing it from a 633 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 1: place that the rest of us can't possibly understand, and 634 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: doing it for all the right reasons. So it's wonderful 635 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,000 Speaker 1: to see. And people can go to making an axanareed 636 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: dot com and see these eight minute videos which are 637 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,239 Speaker 1: so powerful, and I know that every one of those 638 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: students is going to be forever changed by this experience 639 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: and they're going to become freedom fighters in their own right. 640 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 1: And so there goes the Marty Tankliff force multiplier effect. 641 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: Marty you've been on the show before, you know how 642 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: it works. At this point, we turned to my favorite 643 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,120 Speaker 1: part of the show. It's the part of the show 644 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:39,880 Speaker 1: we call closing arguments where first of all, I thank 645 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:45,800 Speaker 1: you for being here, sharing your story and just being 646 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: this sort of beacon of hope and light that you are, 647 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: and then I turn off my microphone leave yours on 648 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: for what we call closing arguments. 649 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: I remember when I talked about becoming a lawyer, I said, 650 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,399 Speaker 2: you know, I say, I don't think I can ever 651 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:05,440 Speaker 2: reach the pinnacle of exonerations of Barry Scheck or Steve 652 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: Drisen or anybody like that. But I know if I'm 653 00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 2: instrumental in helping one innocent person walk free, you know, 654 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 2: I kind of joke. I've done my job, and I 655 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 2: was there the day Valentino walked out, but I'm far 656 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 2: from over. You know, it is so rewarding, And I know, Jason, 657 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 2: you've had the opportunity to be there when people have 658 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 2: walked free and been involved in exonerations. It impacts your 659 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 2: life in a way that I think nothing else does. 660 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 2: And I know one of my lawyers said, you know, 661 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 2: those who do this work are doing God's work. And 662 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 2: he explained it was simply that, you know, when you 663 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 2: fight to get somebody who's innocent out of prison, you 664 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 2: were almost giving them an opportunity at new life. So 665 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 2: it's almost like a rebirth for them because some of 666 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 2: them have been locked up longer than they were free, 667 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 2: and now all of a sudden you help them gain 668 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 2: their freedom back. It really is probably some of the 669 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: most rewarding work. And you know, Mark is somebody who 670 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 2: is just amazing because you know, Mark was a tenured 671 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 2: professor of government and it was because of his involvement 672 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:19,959 Speaker 2: and his choice to go to law school to join 673 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 2: my defense team to fight to get me out of prison, 674 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 2: that his career essentially changed. Where he teaches prisons and justice. 675 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 2: He goes into prisons and teaches college credit courses. He's 676 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: established the Frederick Douglas Project, and Mark and I have 677 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 2: made a decision that we will teach this class every 678 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 2: year going forward, just because so many innocent people don't 679 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,839 Speaker 2: have the ability to have their voices told. You know, 680 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 2: after Just Mercy came out, I told our students that 681 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 2: you have to watch the scene where Jamie is talking 682 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,320 Speaker 2: to his lawyer after the evidentiary hearing. And he says 683 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: something to the fact that even if I don't get 684 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 2: out of prison, I'm good because the truth came out. 685 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: And that's what we empower our students to do. Get 686 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: the truth out there, because those who are incarcerated, that's 687 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 2: what they want. We can't control the criminal justice system, 688 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:29,160 Speaker 2: but we can control investigating these cases and telling the 689 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 2: stories and having those who are incarcerated have their stories 690 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,960 Speaker 2: told through our voices. I think anybody who walks away 691 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 2: and watches the videos will just find that our system 692 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 2: is so flawed on so many levels, and everyone across 693 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 2: America can do something because that's a question. I'm sy. 694 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 2: You get asked all the time what can we do? 695 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,520 Speaker 2: And we tell people, you know, find something you're good at, 696 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 2: and just offered help, you know, whether it be writing 697 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 2: a letter to somebody who's in prison, social media development sharing, 698 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 2: passing along petitions, if there are fundraising efforts, do fundraising 699 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:16,360 Speaker 2: because so often people sit back and say, I'm not 700 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 2: a lawyer, I know nothing about the system. And when 701 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,440 Speaker 2: I tell people that the system is about humanity at 702 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,360 Speaker 2: its core, because our system succeeds and fails based on 703 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 2: humans on so many levels that if we go deep 704 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 2: into our hearts we can find something that we can 705 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 2: do to make a difference. 706 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you 707 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm a proud 708 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: donor to the Nisnce Project and I really hope you'll 709 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping 710 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to innescenceproject dot org 711 00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get it. I'd like 712 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wardis. 713 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:06,800 Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR 714 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on 715 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:14,719 Speaker 1: Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 716 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flam is a production of Lava 717 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:25,640 Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one