Speaker 1: Pushkin if you think about it, and I encourage people
Speaker 1: listening to try this. If you ask someone in your
Speaker 1: own life to share a story of past fun, just
Speaker 1: watch their face while they're telling you this story. There's
Speaker 1: really this amazing warmth and this glow that comes off
Speaker 1: of people, and it's very contagious. It really just lights
Speaker 1: people up.
Speaker 2: As adults, most of us don't have the time or
Speaker 2: energy to prioritize having fun. It kind of feels like
Speaker 2: a luxury good. But when some free time unexpectedly opened
Speaker 2: up for science journalists Catherine Price, she discovered just how
Speaker 2: restorative and life giving fun can be.
Speaker 1: That's what led me to write The Power of Fun.
Speaker 1: Was this curiosity about what is this feeling, how does
Speaker 1: it differ from what it says in the dictionary, what
Speaker 1: research is there on what this is doing for us?
Speaker 1: And then, perhaps most importantly, like how can I have
Speaker 1: more of it? Because it feels so good?
Speaker 2: On today's episode how to Have More Fun, I'm Maya Schunker,
Speaker 2: a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a
Speaker 2: slight change of plans, a show about who we are
Speaker 2: and who we become in the face of a big change.
Speaker 2: Catherine has spent years researching how people can live happy
Speaker 2: and meaningful lives in a world filled with distraction. She's
Speaker 2: written a number of books on the topic, including a
Speaker 2: bestseller called How to Break Up with Your Phone. After
Speaker 2: taking her own advice, Catherine discovered that less screen time
Speaker 2: left her with a surprising amount of free time. The
Speaker 2: problem was she had no idea what to do with
Speaker 2: that free time. Catherine had forgotten how to have fun.
Speaker 1: I remember there was this one afternoon when our daughter,
Speaker 1: at that point was a baby. She was napping, my
Speaker 1: husband was out running an errand, and I was sitting
Speaker 1: on the couch downstairs in our living room, and I
Speaker 1: was just lost. I was thinking, Okay, I have this
Speaker 1: whole hour in front of me. I can do whatever
Speaker 1: I want with this hour, and I don't know what
Speaker 1: I want to do. So I ended up having a
Speaker 1: bit of a mini existential crisis of thinking, like, here,
Speaker 1: I am trying to live life fully, I can't even
Speaker 1: figure out what I want to do for an hour
Speaker 1: of free time. And so I ended up asking myself
Speaker 1: a question, and the question was, what's something you say
Speaker 1: you want to do but you supposedly don't have time for?
Speaker 1: And so my answer to that question was I wanted
Speaker 1: to try to learn guitar because I had been given
Speaker 1: a guitar by my grandmother when I was in college.
Speaker 1: So I thought, well, I should learn to play guitar,
Speaker 1: and so I found this class. It was a class
Speaker 1: at a children's music studio, but it was for adults,
Speaker 1: and I signed up and I went to this class,
Speaker 1: and I just started to have this feeling when I
Speaker 1: was in the class, like this just happy feeling that
Speaker 1: stayed with me for the rest of the week. And
Speaker 1: we were not trying to become professional musicians we were
Speaker 1: in that session. I distinctly remember learning the theme song
Speaker 1: from Mauana, how Far I'll Go.
Speaker 2: I literally was just saying last night, that's one of
Speaker 2: my top Disney songs of all time, which she has
Speaker 2: the key change midway through the song.
Speaker 3: The modulation in my life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the modulation.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I know a good modulation
Speaker 1: will get you every time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it's so good.
Speaker 1: So yeah, well we didn't sound like that, I guess
Speaker 1: was at a point there we sounded very mediocre. But
Speaker 1: I just loved this class and I was trying to
Speaker 1: figure out what am I experiencing and it took me
Speaker 1: an embarrassingly long time to realize, Oh, the best word
Speaker 1: to describe this is fun. I'm really having fun, And
Speaker 1: I think that speaks to how foreign this feeling can
Speaker 1: be too adults. And so I was like, this feels
Speaker 1: so good? How do I have more of this feeling?
Speaker 1: And so then I kind of tapped into my science
Speaker 1: journalist self and I was like, Okay, well, I wonder
Speaker 1: what this is, like what is fun? And then I
Speaker 1: looked it up in the dictionary and it was said
Speaker 1: it was lighthearted amusement or pleasure something like that, and
Speaker 1: that didn't match at all the exuberant feeling I was experiencing.
Speaker 2: Like the energy, life giving aspect of it.
Speaker 1: Yes, So that's what led me to write The Power
Speaker 1: of Fun was this kind of curiosity about what is
Speaker 1: this feeling, how does it differ from what it says
Speaker 1: in the dictionary, what research is there on what this
Speaker 1: is doing for us? And then, perhaps most importantly, like
Speaker 1: how can I have more of it? Because it feels
Speaker 1: so good.
Speaker 2: I absolutely loved reading your book, Catherine, because it occurred
Speaker 2: to me that I have never thought about fun. I've
Speaker 2: never thought to define it. I've never thought about whether
Speaker 2: I'm having enough of it. It just is never something
Speaker 2: that's crossed my mind in my adulthood.
Speaker 1: You're definitely not alone in that most people I don't
Speaker 1: think have thought about fun. I'm just fascinated in general.
Speaker 1: I should start by saying, just buy these words and
Speaker 1: these concepts that we use all the time but don't
Speaker 1: really think about. And I think that part of the
Speaker 1: reason adults don't think about fun that much is that,
Speaker 1: like fun was drilled out of us as kids because
Speaker 1: it's not valued as an emotion or an experience or
Speaker 1: a feeling. And so you know, it's like this get
Speaker 1: back to work that people erroneously think that fun and
Speaker 1: work can't exist at the same time. And so I
Speaker 1: think we kind of been taught to not value fun
Speaker 1: and to not even think about putting work in to
Speaker 1: have fun because it's not as important as answering our
Speaker 1: emails or you know, or like doing something with our kids,
Speaker 1: or taking care of a household, errand or whatever it
Speaker 1: may be. It really ends up at the bottom of
Speaker 1: the priority list.
Speaker 2: Yes, you keep calling fun a feeling, right, which divorces
Speaker 2: it from any given activity that someone engages in. And
Speaker 2: you've also shared a definition you find insufficient when it
Speaker 2: comes to fun. How do you define fun the feeling
Speaker 2: of fun now that you conducted all this research about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the reason I say it's a feeling is exactly
Speaker 1: what you're hitting on is that you can have the
Speaker 1: exact same activity and sometimes it's incredibly fun, and then
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just mediocre, but you're doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: I sent a survey out to people on my mailing list,
Speaker 1: and I asked people to share with me three stories
Speaker 1: of past fun experiences that stood out to them. This
Speaker 1: was not very scientific, but I said, tell me a
Speaker 1: story that was quote so fun, and I capitalized so
Speaker 1: because I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it.
Speaker 1: And I got thousands of stories from people around the
Speaker 1: world describing these fun experiences, and first of all, it
Speaker 1: would clear that something deeper was going on than that
Speaker 1: Dictionary definition of just lighthearted pleasure, because when I read
Speaker 1: their stories, I would find myself smiling and also feeling
Speaker 1: very emotional. They were really tapping into something that was
Speaker 1: like profoundly human and moving in a way that was
Speaker 1: very unexpected. One that I always remember as someone who
Speaker 1: said that one of their memories that was so fun
Speaker 1: was when they were with their grandfather and they deliberately
Speaker 1: went out during a rainstorm without umbrellas and they let
Speaker 1: themselves get soaked in the rain.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh wow. I feel moved by that just hearing it.
Speaker 1: It's just these little, precious moments. Some of them involved
Speaker 1: trips and stuff like that, but a lot of them didn't.
Speaker 1: A lot of them were quite mundane and didn't involve
Speaker 1: a lot of money. But you know what I noticed
Speaker 1: in these stories is there was just this similar feeling
Speaker 1: that was behind all of the stories, even though the
Speaker 1: details were very different, and there was this sense of
Speaker 1: almost euphoria, and a lot of them this sense of
Speaker 1: profound connection, this sense of just time standing still, of
Speaker 1: losing themselves in the moment of their inner critic going silent,
Speaker 1: and just of being really fully alive. And I encourage
Speaker 1: people listening to try this. If you ask someone in
Speaker 1: your own life to share a story of past fun,
Speaker 1: do this experiment, but with somebody else. Just watch their
Speaker 1: face while they're telling you the story and try to
Speaker 1: pick up on the energy that they give off. There's
Speaker 1: really this amazing warmth and this glow that comes off
Speaker 1: of people, and it's very contagious. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: going to have a contagious emotion or feeling like fun
Speaker 1: is a really good one to be around. It really
Speaker 1: just lights people up.
Speaker 2: You also say that fun is a core part of
Speaker 2: our well being and a significant contributor to happiness. But
Speaker 2: it's so easy for us to see fun as this frivolous,
Speaker 2: nice to have thing. Can you share a bit more
Speaker 2: about the research here, like why why should any person
Speaker 2: listening to this think, yes, it's worth my time to
Speaker 2: invest in having more fun.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, because you deserve to have fun
Speaker 1: and it's a wonderful state to be in.
Speaker 2: But you're making a deep philosophical point, which is some
Speaker 2: things we deserve just by virtue of existing as humans
Speaker 2: and being here on this earth, and we shouldn't need
Speaker 2: to justify something like fun. I think that's as simple
Speaker 2: as the argument goes, right, Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: A really deep point.
Speaker 1: It's like, fundamentally, I do want to just stress that
Speaker 1: we deserve to enjoy our own lives. And honestly, if
Speaker 1: you are having more fun, it will energize you in
Speaker 1: a way that will help you more good in the
Speaker 1: world and be better to other people and I think
Speaker 1: I feel that very strongly.
Speaker 3: I know that certainly personally.
Speaker 1: When I'm having enough fun, I'm a much better partner
Speaker 1: to my husband and a much better parent.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in your book, you distinguish between fake fun and
Speaker 2: true fun. So what's fake fun?
Speaker 1: So fake fun is a term I came up with
Speaker 1: to describe the activities and products that are marketed to
Speaker 1: us as fun, but they don't lead to this nourished
Speaker 1: feeling of true fun. The most quintessential examples of fake
Speaker 1: fun are social media, for sure, where you turn to
Speaker 1: it for entertainment or because you've got a moment of boredom,
Speaker 1: or you want to escape your own thoughts or whatever,
Speaker 1: and you get caught in a doom spiral and or
Speaker 1: doom scrolling, and then you look up forty five minutes
Speaker 1: this past. Even if you like think you enjoyed it
Speaker 1: and maybe there were some memes that made you laugh
Speaker 1: or whatever, it doesn't leave you feeling nourished. If you're
Speaker 1: struggling to try to figure out how to distinguish between
Speaker 1: things that are fake fun and true fun, one way
Speaker 1: to think about it is what leaves you with memories,
Speaker 1: you know, even if they're tiny, little memories. So in
Speaker 1: all the years I've spent talking to people about fun,
Speaker 1: no one has told me about the memory that they
Speaker 1: had of scrolling for an hour and a half on Instagram.
Speaker 1: As opposed to these little moments of true fun that
Speaker 1: might be very mundane or just like unexpected, where it
Speaker 1: creates a memory that you can hold on to. Fake
Speaker 1: fun is kind of like the junk food of leisure time,
Speaker 1: I think, where like, maybe it tastes really good at first,
Speaker 1: but then when you do it for too long, then
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, actually, I don't feel like that was a.
Speaker 3: Good use of my time.
Speaker 1: And then you have on the other end of that
Speaker 1: spectrum these the feeling of true fun, which to me
Speaker 1: is like I can't get enough of that.
Speaker 2: I know, I don't want this dinner party to end.
Speaker 2: I don't want that. Yes, this wedding, like this is
Speaker 2: such a fun wedding. You know you don't want the
Speaker 2: experience to end. That's a really good temperature tech of
Speaker 2: whether having a true fun round if you truly don't
Speaker 2: want it to end. How do we think about individual
Speaker 2: differences when it comes to our propensity for fun? So
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people are like I'm just
Speaker 2: not like a super fun person, Like I'm just not
Speaker 2: that's fun. I mean, I would say that about myself even,
Speaker 2: like I feel like a happy person who has fun,
Speaker 2: but her bar for fun is so low. Like I
Speaker 2: don't drink. I go to bed at ten pm every night,
Speaker 2: and a perfect day for me is like doing the
Speaker 2: same things that I do every day, because I'm a
Speaker 2: creature of habit and I lack an adventurous spirit. It
Speaker 2: just seems like in my life I've come across people
Speaker 2: who feel like fun madness Catherine, Like they just they
Speaker 2: gravitate towards fun, but they also make fun out of
Speaker 2: ordinary situations. And I just wonder whether some people just
Speaker 2: have an easier time having fun than other people. Asking
Speaker 2: for a friend.
Speaker 1: Right, exactly, Certainly some people have an easier time having
Speaker 1: fun than other people. But I would say that's more
Speaker 1: about the ability to let go or silence that inner
Speaker 1: critic than anything else. And I actually ask people in
Speaker 1: this very long survey that people kindly filled out for me,
Speaker 1: I asked them to describe someone in their life that
Speaker 1: they would call a fun person, and then I asked them, like,
Speaker 1: what made that person fun? And I think that coming
Speaker 1: into that I have thought what you just said is like, Okay,
Speaker 1: they must be the life of the party.
Speaker 3: They must be the class clown. They must be the
Speaker 3: person who's getting everyone on a I don't know, like
Speaker 3: a boat. I feel like there's boats involved from that, right,
Speaker 3: there has to be vote, There's got to be a boat.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, but that wasn't the case at all that
Speaker 1: they said things like the people that they knew who
Speaker 1: they considered to be fun, they would laugh easily, they
Speaker 1: made other people feel comfortable in their presence, they were
Speaker 1: often up for trying new things. It was really much
Speaker 1: more of an attitude towards life and an attention to
Speaker 1: how they made other people feel than it was any
Speaker 1: kind of personality trait. And it certainly wasn't like genetic.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like certain people are just fun. I mean,
Speaker 1: you certainly can have certain people who are more extroverted
Speaker 1: than others, which I think we often also erroneous the
Speaker 1: associate with being fun. But you have lots of people
Speaker 1: who definitely are introverts, who are able to make people
Speaker 1: feel comfortable in their presence and create this safe environment
Speaker 1: for fun. I think a lot of it does have
Speaker 1: to do with the ability to make people feel safe
Speaker 1: so that they can down their guard and be a
Speaker 1: little silly, be a little playful, you know, let out
Speaker 1: other sides of their personality that if they felt more
Speaker 1: self conscious, they wouldn't be able to. So I actually
Speaker 1: found that really interesting.
Speaker 2: That is super interesting, and I'm having a bit of
Speaker 2: a moment because as someone who self identifies as like
Speaker 2: conservative fun person, as not the kind of stereotypical version
Speaker 2: of a fun person that you see portrayed in movies
Speaker 2: or whatnot, you're building my fun self confidence, which is
Speaker 2: I am really easy to like smile and laugh, and
Speaker 2: I love animated discussions and conversations and hearing from other people.
Speaker 2: So you're helping me realize that that allows other people
Speaker 2: to do the primary thing required to have fun, which
Speaker 2: is to break down some of the barriers, some of
Speaker 2: the walls that stand between them and other people, and
Speaker 2: to enter this situation with a little bit less fearfulness,
Speaker 2: with a little more fearlessness.
Speaker 1: Yeah, to your point, I think it's actually really important
Speaker 1: and this was a big breakthrough for me as well,
Speaker 1: as like, don't focus on these stereotypes.
Speaker 3: Instead ask yourself, like, what makes you feel.
Speaker 2: Alive after the break, Catherine reveals how we can all
Speaker 2: bring more fun into our lives. No boats required. We'll
Speaker 2: be back in a moment with a slight change of plans.
Speaker 2: Catherine Price says that no matter who you are or
Speaker 2: what activities you enjoy, the recipe for true fun usually
Speaker 2: calls for three ingredients playfulness, connection, and flow.
Speaker 1: When I say playfulness, a lot of adults clench up.
Speaker 3: I can like feel it. They're like, I can't play
Speaker 3: like I'm playful.
Speaker 1: And I think that's because we often think that it
Speaker 1: means you have to be silly, because it's not that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not like let me tell you a joke, you know,
Speaker 1: or like. By playfulness, I'm really talking about your attitude.
Speaker 1: It's about having a lighthearted attitude towards life or towards
Speaker 1: the situation. Okay, it's finding ways to laugh, it's finding humor,
Speaker 1: it's silencing your inner critic. And that's where I think
Speaker 1: the vulnerability of fun shows up. There's something vulnerable about
Speaker 1: allowing yourself to be a bit playful, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: about finding a way to laugh with the other person,
Speaker 1: not taking yourself too seriously.
Speaker 2: You write in your book that it's the spirit where
Speaker 2: you know you're doing an activity just for the sake
Speaker 2: of doing the activity. You don't care too much about
Speaker 2: the outcome. Tell me a little bit more about what
Speaker 2: you mean by that.
Speaker 1: Yes, one of the other really important things about playfulness
Speaker 1: is that you go into an activity without worrying too
Speaker 1: much about what the result is going to be, which
Speaker 1: is very rare in adult life.
Speaker 3: And I think all of us can think of.
Speaker 1: A memory in which you were playing some kind of
Speaker 1: game or sports or whatever with someone else and it
Speaker 1: was fun, and then they start someone started taking it
Speaker 1: too seriously, and then all of a sudden it wasn't fun,
Speaker 1: you know, like a board game night and suddenly someone
Speaker 1: really wants to win taboo or whatever it is. It
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can't care about the outcome, like you
Speaker 1: might want to win, but it's like there is this
Speaker 1: line where it starts to turn into something bigger than
Speaker 1: just enjoying the moment.
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, let's talk about the second element, connection. Why
Speaker 2: is that a critical element? And what do we mean
Speaker 2: by connection?
Speaker 1: So connection refers to the feeling of having a special
Speaker 1: shared experience, and this was something that came up again
Speaker 1: and again and again and again in people's stories, regardless
Speaker 1: of whether they were introverts or extroverts. Because I specifically said, like,
Speaker 1: is there anything that surprised you about your answers? And
Speaker 1: there were a number of people who said, I'm a
Speaker 1: self proclaimed introvert, but all the stories that has told
Speaker 1: you involved another person.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 1: I think that the difference between introverts and extroverts there
Speaker 1: was that like introverts, it might be in a much
Speaker 1: more intimate setting.
Speaker 2: Yes, people they know, Yeah, people.
Speaker 1: They know, versus someone who is the quote life of
Speaker 1: the party and who is kind of deriving energy from
Speaker 1: these bigger groups of people. They're also, interestingly a number
Speaker 1: of people who had moments of true fun with their dog.
Speaker 1: There were not as many cat stories, but it was
Speaker 1: very interesting if you think about it, because what's a
Speaker 1: dog if not playful?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: So anyway, people, some people had the sense of connection
Speaker 1: with their dogs, but the vast majority of stories involved
Speaker 1: another person, And I just thought that was so interesting.
Speaker 2: How do we think about that though? Because there are
Speaker 2: people in my life I know who relish being in isolation, right,
Speaker 2: so not lonely, because I know loneliness is a state
Speaker 2: of mind that can be negative. But I think about
Speaker 2: my dad, for example, Like for him a dream would
Speaker 2: be like an Eggs Benedict brunch with a great book,
Speaker 2: sitting at a cafe, and like he would just have
Speaker 2: the time of his life. So surely we can't have
Speaker 2: true fun alone, right.
Speaker 1: I think there are some people who can have fun,
Speaker 1: true fun alone, But I will say I think it's
Speaker 1: rareer than we think, because when you're describing that scene,
Speaker 1: to me, that's like maybe true enjoyment, like he's savoring it,
Speaker 1: he's really loving that. But to me doesn't feel the
Speaker 1: same as the stories in which people talk about true fun.
Speaker 1: And I'd be curious of like psychio critical example, But
Speaker 1: if you ask your dad, like do you remember, like
Speaker 1: if you talked about ask him, does eggs Benedict alone
Speaker 1: with a book pop to the top of the list?
Speaker 1: And maybe it does, in which case, like more power
Speaker 1: to you. If that truly is fun, I think you
Speaker 1: can have a sense of connection with yourself and with
Speaker 1: the activity. But it's very interesting to me how infrequent
Speaker 1: that was.
Speaker 2: The third element is flow. Can you just quickly define
Speaker 2: flow for us and what that means?
Speaker 1: So flow is the state we get into when we're
Speaker 1: totally absorbed and engaged in what we're doing. We often
Speaker 1: lose track of time when we're in flow, but not
Speaker 1: in the sense of like I watched Netflix for seven
Speaker 1: hours and I lost track of time. That's very passive
Speaker 1: and it's a consumptive state. It's what would be known
Speaker 1: as like junk flow. We're talking about when you are
Speaker 1: fully engaged in your activities. So the man who coined
Speaker 1: the term flow actually was studying rock climbers, and if
Speaker 1: you think about someone who's rock climbing, like you have
Speaker 1: to be entirely engaged in present in what you're turned.
Speaker 3: So you don't fall off the rock face.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it could be an athlete playing a game,
Speaker 1: musician playing a piece of music, really anything where you're
Speaker 1: in the zone and everything else seems to melt away.
Speaker 1: You're also at this sweet spot of feeling challenged but
Speaker 1: not overly so, which can happen in conversation, which I
Speaker 1: think is interesting. You might think that in order to
Speaker 1: have the flow state in which you're at this sweet
Speaker 1: spot of being challenged, that you need to be doing
Speaker 1: something that's like hard. But if you think of just
Speaker 1: bantering with a friend, that actually requires a very high
Speaker 1: level of engagement to make the conversation work in the
Speaker 1: powder flow and like you actually are expressing a skill.
Speaker 2: I would say, like when I think about things that
Speaker 2: bring me joy, I recently hopped on the Macha Latte train.
Speaker 2: I don't know where it had been all my life.
Speaker 2: I know it like I'm ten years late to the party,
Speaker 2: which is, by the way, very symbolic on brand. Yeah,
Speaker 2: very symbolic for my personality.
Speaker 3: I also just started drinking watch A Lottes for whatever.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm ten years late to every cool trend. But
Speaker 2: my morning walk now where I leave my home and
Speaker 2: I walk to a cafe and I just like taken
Speaker 2: the sun and the sights and the sounds, and I
Speaker 2: get my tea and I walk back drinking its delicious,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like centering, grounding myself. I find that
Speaker 2: to be like a deeply joyful experience, and I think
Speaker 2: I'm having fun, but I mean, yeah, it doesn't rise
Speaker 2: to the level of like true fun. Geez, Catherine oh Man,
Speaker 2: I really really got your about this. But I do
Speaker 2: think let me put it this way, because I was
Speaker 2: reflecting on this a lot over the weekend, given that
Speaker 2: I've had periods of my life in which I've felt
Speaker 2: really acute anxiety. My definition of happiness and fun and
Speaker 2: joy has been totally recalibrated, such that I'm very easy
Speaker 2: to please now I have a very low bar, and
Speaker 2: I almost define wellness as the absence of anxiety, because
Speaker 2: it's so bad to have anxiety that when I don't
Speaker 2: have that, I'm like, this is great. I'm living my
Speaker 2: best life. And so I do wonder am I maybe
Speaker 2: not pushing myself enough? Or should I maybe be stepping
Speaker 2: out of my comfort zone encouraging true fun a bit
Speaker 2: more well.
Speaker 1: First of all, I think it's wonderful that you're driving
Speaker 1: so much enjoyment from these little things. I do think
Speaker 1: there's this big center bucket of activities that we enjoy
Speaker 1: that maybe aren't lighting you up to the degree of
Speaker 1: true fun, but they're certainly not fake fun. And a
Speaker 1: lot of those are things that are enjoyable on your own,
Speaker 1: so like going for a walk, doing a yoga class,
Speaker 1: like taking a bath, of journaling, doing art, maybe eating
Speaker 1: expnedict alone while reading your favorite book. And I think
Speaker 1: of that as just like, those are great activities that
Speaker 1: you love, like they're your hobbies, but they're not necessarily
Speaker 1: generating in the same level of excitement for lack of
Speaker 1: a better word, or just energy as true fun. But
Speaker 1: I say that just because it's really important. I think
Speaker 1: as adults who have very limited leisure time to think
Speaker 1: a bit critically and dorkily one might say about your
Speaker 1: leisure time and figure out which bucket you're in when
Speaker 1: you're spending free time, because if you're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: is actually fake fun, I actually don't want to be
Speaker 1: doing that, Well, that's really important because as we all know,
Speaker 1: you only have twenty four hours in the day, so
Speaker 1: you don't want to waste your precious leisure time on
Speaker 1: stuff that you know actually isn't enjoyable in the moment
Speaker 1: or filling you up for later.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's like lots of stuff.
Speaker 1: If you're like, no, I'm really excited to sit here
Speaker 1: alone and read my book, you know, and like drink.
Speaker 3: My cuff of coffee, like, more power to you.
Speaker 1: I just think it's helpful for me at least to
Speaker 1: be a little bit meta aware of how I'm spending
Speaker 1: my leisure time so I can make sure that I
Speaker 1: feel good about what I'm doing in the moment and
Speaker 1: there's not something else I'd rather be doing with that
Speaker 1: time because.
Speaker 3: It's so precious.
Speaker 1: So all that is to say, if you're able to
Speaker 1: extract that much delight and enjoyment out of these little moments,
Speaker 1: that's amazing. So I guess my question would be back
Speaker 1: to you is like, is there anything that you actually
Speaker 1: are curious about doing or trying? Like when you're talking
Speaker 1: about should I be having more true fun? And I'd
Speaker 1: also ask like, do you have Maybe we should start
Speaker 1: with this. It turned the tables on your mid interview.
Speaker 1: If I asked you to share, like an experience of
Speaker 1: that stands out to you as having been true fun
Speaker 1: or so fun?
Speaker 3: What comes to mind for you?
Speaker 2: Okay, So one experience where I felt like I was
Speaker 2: having a lot of fun was my husband and I
Speaker 2: and my best friend we all went to watch The
Speaker 2: Devil Where's Prata two over the weekend and I thought
Speaker 2: it was such a delightful movie and I was laughing
Speaker 2: a lot, and it was very, very cutely done, and
Speaker 2: it just made me very nostalgic for like the nineties
Speaker 2: and how humans used to be and now you know,
Speaker 2: it's just such a different, different world that we're living in.
Speaker 2: And gen Z commentary ats that are so that's really fun.
Speaker 2: And then afterwards the three of us got pizza and
Speaker 2: we we did a total recap download of the movie,
Speaker 2: and that was incredibly fun because one food, of course,
Speaker 2: but then two just like bonding over what we loved
Speaker 2: or didn't love, commentary on the different actors and actresses.
Speaker 2: So yes, that was a recent memory of having a
Speaker 2: lot of fun.
Speaker 3: So it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I know that this is going to be audio for
Speaker 1: most people, but I'm watching you tell that story and
Speaker 1: like you're lighting up, Like I can feel that through
Speaker 1: the computer screen. And I'd also be curious to ask, like,
Speaker 1: do you think you would have found it as much
Speaker 1: fun if you've done the exact same thing about on
Speaker 1: your own?
Speaker 2: Oh no, And I know I never am under the
Speaker 2: illusion that I was gonna I'm gonna have more fun
Speaker 2: by myself. My dad yeah, yeah, yeah, that's my dad.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But then on the other and then there's other moments.
Speaker 2: I was joking with my producer and editor as we
Speaker 2: were preparing for this interview, I was like, you know,
Speaker 2: I recently went to it. This is really embarrassing that
Speaker 2: I am saying this to breed camaraderie among the people
Speaker 2: listening who again also have very low bars for happiness.
Speaker 2: But I had a contact lens fitting appointment, and wait
Speaker 2: for it, I had a really failed try with the
Speaker 2: contact lenses in the past, so I just assumed that's
Speaker 2: never going to happen. And then I went to a
Speaker 2: different eye clinic and it was a lovely experience with Hannah.
Speaker 2: She was so nice, so fun, She coached me through
Speaker 2: the process. We were bonding, and I got the contact
Speaker 2: lens in and the feeling of joy and accomplishment and
Speaker 2: pride that I'd been able to get the contact lens in.
Speaker 2: I'm telling you, Catherine, I don't know if it's true fun,
Speaker 2: but it definitely met the fun bar for me because
Speaker 2: it was just as like I went on this little
Speaker 2: mission of can I do this thing? So it felt
Speaker 2: like explored, like I don't know, I just lit me
Speaker 2: up a little bit, but that is my life, that
Speaker 2: is who I am.
Speaker 1: I love that I had a story about how I
Speaker 1: had true fun getting a.
Speaker 3: Shoulder injection God, which was incredibly.
Speaker 1: Painful and not fun at all, but I had this
Speaker 1: like laugh with the people in the room, and I
Speaker 1: remember the publicist for the Power of Pune was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a weird story. Maybe go tell that one, but no,
Speaker 1: But I love your story. I'm glad you did share
Speaker 1: it because I'm also wondering. I'm assuming you, like Hannah,
Speaker 1: kind of knew like a bit of the backstory. You
Speaker 1: were like probably sharing a bit of like this was
Speaker 1: a failing before girl.
Speaker 2: You don't even want to know what my last experience was,
Speaker 2: like they I had to use eye drops afterwards because
Speaker 2: an eye infection was created. It was whole thing, and
Speaker 2: so it just felt like we were on this joint
Speaker 2: mission together and then we had.
Speaker 3: A special shared experience.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, like exactly, And she probably went home.
Speaker 1: Was a bit of a smile on her face because
Speaker 1: she felt a sense of accomplishment, and she also had
Speaker 1: that kind of pump.
Speaker 3: Sure you weren't like I need to get this contact
Speaker 3: lens into my eye, you know.
Speaker 1: It was like a playful kind of thing, even though
Speaker 1: you did have a goal and you really did want
Speaker 1: the contact lens to work for you, right, Like, Yes,
Speaker 1: I actually think it's a perfect example. I really do
Speaker 1: encourage people to try to let go of these shoulds.
Speaker 1: There's no shoulds. I mean I would say maybe if
Speaker 1: there is a should, it's like maybe you should explore
Speaker 1: the idea of what fun means to you because it
Speaker 1: probably will make your life better if you if you
Speaker 1: go through that process. But like in the book I
Speaker 1: talk about, I mean again, it's really dorky. That's why
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm in a safe space right now.
Speaker 2: But you know it's like in the safest space. Don't
Speaker 2: you worry my friend's space.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it felt like if you're telling people to
Speaker 1: have fun, right, the fund's good for you, which we
Speaker 1: haven't even got into, but it really is a very
Speaker 1: I believe, very good for us mentally and physically. But
Speaker 1: if you're telling people to have fun like that is
Speaker 1: so hand wavy and not a helpful piece of advice
Speaker 1: because you do that.
Speaker 2: And almost self sabotaging. You like overthink it and you're yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly. You can't force fun. We've all tried
Speaker 1: to force fun on ourselves or other people, and it
Speaker 1: rarely ends up where we wanted to. So my next
Speaker 1: thought was, Okay, well you can fill your life with
Speaker 1: more playfulness and connection and flow, which is a piece
Speaker 1: of advice I think is helpful. So I think that
Speaker 1: I think that what you're doing is actually fantastic, And
Speaker 1: I wouldn't put pressure on yourself to feel like you
Speaker 1: should find fun in various things. I would just ask yourself, like,
Speaker 1: is there is there anything that you're just curious about?
Speaker 1: Like an example for my own life, I'm like, I'm
Speaker 1: really trying to focus on this obviously, that's why I
Speaker 1: wrote the book, and I'm still trying to do it.
Speaker 1: And it's like going on six years since I started
Speaker 1: that project. But it's like trying to prioritize putting myself
Speaker 1: in situations where it's likely to occur.
Speaker 3: So I signed this.
Speaker 1: Coming Friday, I'm going to an adult ice skating workshop.
Speaker 2: Wonderful. I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so fun.
Speaker 2: We'll see that is so fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean we'll see, we'll see.
Speaker 1: It's certainly gonna be funny, right, So, like, I think
Speaker 1: that's the other thing.
Speaker 3: Is there anything that you're like that it'd be funny.
Speaker 2: It's not going to be funnier than what's happening naing
Speaker 2: Thursday night in my household, which is what my husband
Speaker 2: Jimmy watched lay Miz with me at the theater on Friday.
Speaker 2: Has now decided he's a quote theater kid. This guy's
Speaker 2: a software engineer and has signed up for his first
Speaker 2: voice lesson on Thursday, Yes, and has asked me to attend,
Speaker 2: so I will be there and that will be funny.
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, Jimmy.
Speaker 1: I love that, Like, no matter what happens on Thursday night,
Speaker 1: Jimmy's gonna wake up on Friday like a better singer
Speaker 1: than he was on Thursday night.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And that's so cool.
Speaker 1: You don't get that that much in adult life, especially
Speaker 1: if you're already a certain level and then you're like
Speaker 1: trying to level up a tiny bit. It's not as
Speaker 1: satisfied as starting something.
Speaker 2: That's a great point. It's a great point.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So let's say that I really want to introduce more
Speaker 2: true fun into my life, but I don't know what
Speaker 2: feels fun for me anymore, Like, I'm not sure where
Speaker 2: to start. How do I identify the sorts of things
Speaker 2: that might check these boxes for me as a person.
Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I always say, don't try to
Speaker 1: have more fun, Like, don't aim at it too directly,
Speaker 1: because it will backfire.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of anti fun to think too hard
Speaker 2: about fun.
Speaker 1: I know, won't believe me write a book about fun.
Speaker 1: Let's see version. Yeah, try to pin it down in words. No,
Speaker 1: I would say, as we were discussing the focus on
Speaker 1: the playfulness and the connection and flow as ingredients, but
Speaker 1: I would suggest, as like a first step, do what
Speaker 1: I call a fun audit, speaking of things that aren't
Speaker 1: fun sounding at all. But ask yourself, what are three memories,
Speaker 1: three to five memories that stand out from your own
Speaker 1: life as having been so fun? Okay, you know, and
Speaker 1: don't be horrified if it takes you a while to
Speaker 1: think of anything.
Speaker 2: It is hard. I happen to have gone to a movie.
Speaker 2: I was lucky when you asked me you were prepared,
Speaker 2: because if you if it hadn't been last Time'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe I wouldn't leave
Speaker 2: with the contact lens fitting appointed. That's for sure.
Speaker 3: To kind of build up to that one. Yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: One thing I actually recommend to people is that you
Speaker 1: start to pay tension in your daily life and look
Speaker 1: for moments, even if they're tiny, of playfulness or connection
Speaker 1: or flow, and actually write them down if you're that
Speaker 1: kind of person, because you know, our minds are automatically
Speaker 1: going to focus on things that cause anxiety and fear,
Speaker 1: because that's like a survival strategy. We were just evolved
Speaker 1: to notice threats. It actually takes effort to focus on
Speaker 1: positive things. Yes, I think that's an important point to
Speaker 1: make for people who think that it's frivolous or irresponsible
Speaker 1: to focus on fun. It's like, well, no, actually, we
Speaker 1: need to like wrench our brains back from what they
Speaker 1: want to be doing, which is doomscrolling the news and
Speaker 1: be like no, no, no, like, let's focus on the macholatte, Like,
Speaker 1: let's focus on the good things as well. And I
Speaker 1: think if it is kind of creating a metaphorical necklace,
Speaker 1: like you're collecting beautiful little beads that you then can
Speaker 1: string on the necklace, and each of those beads might
Speaker 1: be quite tiny, you know, and you might not notice
Speaker 1: it even on its own, And then once you start
Speaker 1: to proactively pay attention to them and label them as such,
Speaker 1: be like, oh, that was a placement, that was a
Speaker 1: moment of connection, that was flow. Then you can kind
Speaker 1: of have more ideas for how to generate more of
Speaker 1: those moments.
Speaker 3: Even if it's not conscious.
Speaker 1: You might just find yourself behaving a little bit differently,
Speaker 1: Like one thing that really gets in the way of
Speaker 1: fun or any of those elements is having your phone
Speaker 1: out all the time of keeping yourself distracted, because if
Speaker 1: you're not open to what's going on in the world
Speaker 1: around you, or the people, or the experiences or the details,
Speaker 1: you're not going to have a moment of connection. You
Speaker 1: won't have opportunities for playfulness really, and it is inherently
Speaker 1: a distracting device, so you're not going to be in flow.
Speaker 1: It also can be a fun thing to talk about
Speaker 1: with a friend or a loved one. Is like, let's
Speaker 1: actually like a fun conversation fodder for dinner tonight. Might
Speaker 1: be like, let's actually think about some past fun experiences,
Speaker 1: and so once you start thinking about them, they tend
Speaker 1: to come more easily. Like you might then be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: like this is a fun memory I have, whether it's
Speaker 1: from college or for when you're a kid, or last week.
Speaker 3: Whenever it might be.
Speaker 1: And then once you have your collection of stories, I
Speaker 1: would then suggest that you read through those stories and
Speaker 1: try to identify what I call your fun magnets. And
Speaker 1: that's the term I came up with that refers to
Speaker 1: the people and the activities and the settings that generate
Speaker 1: fun for you personally. Okay, as we were talking about earlier,
Speaker 1: activities are not always fun. Fun is a feeling, it
Speaker 1: is not a specific activity. But we each do have
Speaker 1: a collection of activities there are more likely to lead
Speaker 1: to fun for us than others. So you might have
Speaker 1: some ideas off the top of your head, just from
Speaker 1: me saying that. You might be like, oh, yes, one
Speaker 1: of my fun magnets is I don't know golf or
Speaker 1: like whatever it is.
Speaker 3: I don't know what your fund magnet is.
Speaker 1: Or you can think to yourself, oh yeah, I do
Speaker 1: have that friend I always laugh a lot when we're together,
Speaker 1: like we always have a really good time. Well, that
Speaker 1: person is one of your fun magnets or is there
Speaker 1: a setting that consistently gets you into that state where
Speaker 1: you feel like you have fun? If that's hard for
Speaker 1: you to think of, you can use these stories that
Speaker 1: you have just collected to begin to get some ideas.
Speaker 3: There be like do I notice any themes?
Speaker 1: Or ask the person that you're having the conversation with,
Speaker 1: do any themes jump out to you about what I
Speaker 1: just told you, because they might notice things that you
Speaker 1: might not in terms of characteristics. And then speaking of characteristics,
Speaker 1: the next thing I would do is take it a
Speaker 1: next level and ask yourself about your fun factors, which
Speaker 1: is a term I came up with, which refers to
Speaker 1: as the characteristics of the people and the settings and
Speaker 1: the activities that generate fun for you.
Speaker 2: Give me examples.
Speaker 1: Maybe one of your fun factors is risk. Maybe it's
Speaker 1: not risk at all. Maybe it is novelty. You love
Speaker 1: new things, you love traveling for example. Maybe it is
Speaker 1: being in big groups.
Speaker 2: Maybe it is feeling emotionally close to people or laughing
Speaker 2: with people. That for me is a big one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So you can come up with, like,
Speaker 1: what are the characteristics that seem to be associated with
Speaker 1: these fun magnets. And I think that's also a really
Speaker 1: useful exercise because it can help you let go of
Speaker 1: some of this pressure or this feeling that I'm not
Speaker 1: doing fun right because you don't like certain things.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's like.
Speaker 1: Well, no, no, maybe that's just because that's not a
Speaker 1: fun factor for you. It's like, yeah, sure, a lot
Speaker 1: of people really like the novelty of traveling or this
Speaker 1: sense of adventure or unpredictability. For some people, that's a
Speaker 1: really big fun factor. So some other people don't find
Speaker 1: that to be a fun factor that actually stresses you
Speaker 1: out and is not enjoyable, So there's no need to
Speaker 1: beat yourself up over that. That's like actually really useful
Speaker 1: information that you then can use, going back to your
Speaker 1: original question, to take this information and say, okay, well
Speaker 1: what themes do jump out?
Speaker 3: What ideas does this give? Me?
Speaker 1: Either for like, maybe it's things you used to do
Speaker 1: and people you used to hang out with that you
Speaker 1: can actually prioritize, or maybe it'll generate some ideas of
Speaker 1: things you want to do or try. Now that's a
Speaker 1: very engineered way of looking at funds. So what we're
Speaker 1: talking about right now, I think is the kind of
Speaker 1: like you're not forcing fun, but you're certainly trying to
Speaker 1: engineer a situation in which it's more likely to occur.
Speaker 1: Because once you figure out what some of those potential
Speaker 1: activities or people or settings are, you actually can carve
Speaker 1: out time on your calendar and put that in as
Speaker 1: a block. It's not guarantee that you're gonna have fun,
Speaker 1: but it's going to be a lot more likely because
Speaker 1: you've actually prioritized.
Speaker 3: A fun magnet.
Speaker 1: But I would say the flip side of that is
Speaker 1: that so much of fun is spontaneous. It's these moments
Speaker 1: that you didn't expect to have, and that, going back
Speaker 1: to the very beginning of our conversation, is something that
Speaker 1: is much more available to kids in many cases. And
Speaker 1: I think also is why it's such a shame to
Speaker 1: give kids screens or devices at too young an age,
Speaker 1: because you're shutting them off from the opportunity for spontaneous fun.
Speaker 1: But an example of spontaneous fun would be the example
Speaker 1: you told me about being in the contact lens fitting
Speaker 1: with Hannah, right like that was because you brought a
Speaker 1: mindset into that room where you were open with her,
Speaker 1: sounds like you were a bit playful about it. You
Speaker 1: kind of created almost in a strange sense of game,
Speaker 1: even though I know we were talking about how you
Speaker 1: don't have to play a game, but it kind of
Speaker 1: was like, are we going to succeed?
Speaker 2: Fun little challenge?
Speaker 3: Yeah, a fun little challenge.
Speaker 1: Is Maya going to get these contact lenses into her
Speaker 1: eyes successfully?
Speaker 3: And that is.
Speaker 1: Very much you wouldn't be like, all right, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm going to do next Sunday, I'm going to
Speaker 1: put an hour block to go hang out Hannah and
Speaker 1: dry to get contact lenses, and I totally that's probably
Speaker 1: not gonna be fun, but it was because you walked
Speaker 1: into that room with an attitude and you were open
Speaker 1: to the possibility of having this human connection and this
Speaker 1: spontaneous interaction that resulted in this feeling of fun that
Speaker 1: now you remember, and it actually is a memory that
Speaker 1: you will carry with you. And the more of these
Speaker 1: memories we have, going back to the idea of having
Speaker 1: a necklace of memories, like, the more delightful and rewarding
Speaker 1: everyday life will feel will feel, and also the more
Speaker 1: you'll be able, the greater your reserves will be when
Speaker 1: you're having a down day. And I write about that
Speaker 1: in the book as relates to part of Frederickson at
Speaker 1: unc has a theory called the broaden and build theory
Speaker 1: of positive emotion, which people don't need to remember the
Speaker 1: name of, but it basically is the idea that when
Speaker 1: you have a positive experience in the moment, it increases
Speaker 1: your reserves, It helps you whether future periods of stress,
Speaker 1: increases your resilience, and so the more you can deposit
Speaker 1: into your fun bank, even if it is something as
Speaker 1: unexpected and seemingly mundane is a contact fitting, the better
Speaker 1: you'll be able to get through future periods that are
Speaker 1: challenging because you'll have these memories.
Speaker 2: To call upon. Yeah, you've obviously written a whole book
Speaker 2: about breaking up with your phone, because distraction can be
Speaker 2: a fun sabotager. Can we just do a rapid fire
Speaker 2: of like top tips for breaking up with your phone,
Speaker 2: just for people to have them if they're looking to
Speaker 2: improve this.
Speaker 1: The top tip I normally give for breaking up with
Speaker 1: your phone is actually to start philosophically and ask yourself
Speaker 1: what do you actually want to pay attention to? And
Speaker 1: I say that because you're only going to experience what
Speaker 1: you're paying attention to. So this exercise WWW is short
Speaker 1: for what for, Why, Now?
Speaker 3: What else?
Speaker 1: And the idea is that you ask yourself these three
Speaker 1: questions when you pick up your phone in order to
Speaker 1: make the time you spend on your phone more intentional.
Speaker 1: So to take a step back, I actually recommend that
Speaker 1: you start by putting something around your phone. It could
Speaker 1: be a hairtie, it could be rubber band, maybe a
Speaker 1: sticker on your phone, just something that you're going to
Speaker 1: notice when you pick up your phone. And try this
Speaker 1: for just a couple of days. Because right now most
Speaker 1: of us reach for our phones on autopilot and we
Speaker 1: don't even notice we've picked them up until we've already
Speaker 1: gotten sucked into something. If you put some kind of
Speaker 1: physical thing on the phone, your brain's gonna have a
Speaker 1: moment of being like, why is there a rubber band
Speaker 1: around the phone? And that can be a trigger or
Speaker 1: prompt to get you to do these wwws. You could
Speaker 1: also put, like your lock screen image, you could take
Speaker 1: a picture of a piece of paper that says WWW
Speaker 1: if you wanted to. Anyway, once you notice you've picked
Speaker 1: up your phone, you ask yourself these questions. You say,
Speaker 1: what for why did I pick up my phone right now?
Speaker 1: What was the purpose? What was it for? You know,
Speaker 1: it could be something specific like you were calling someone,
Speaker 1: or you were protecting someone, or you needed to actually
Speaker 1: send an email, or you needed to buy something. But
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases you're going to realize you
Speaker 1: didn't really have a purpose. But regardless of what your
Speaker 1: answer is, you then move on to the next question,
Speaker 1: which is why now, why did you pick it up
Speaker 1: in this particular moment?
Speaker 3: And I think this is where things get really interesting.
Speaker 1: Because again, it could actually be a time sensitive reason,
Speaker 1: but in most cases, in my experience, it's going to
Speaker 1: be an emotional reason, and it's going to be something like, oh,
Speaker 1: I felt anxious for a moment and so I pulled
Speaker 1: out my phone, or I was bored, I wanted a
Speaker 1: break from my work project. If you can identify what
Speaker 1: your brain is after, then that's when you actually can
Speaker 1: ask yourself the final question, which is what else, Which
Speaker 1: is the question of what else could I do right
Speaker 1: now in the moment to get that same reward. So
Speaker 1: if you realize you actually wanted a distraction or you
Speaker 1: needed a break from what you're doing, you could ask yourself, well,
Speaker 1: what else could I do right now? Like you could
Speaker 1: just deliberately decide I'm going to do nothing in this
Speaker 1: moment to give my brain a break from the onslaught
Speaker 1: of information that is coming in at all times. And
Speaker 1: I try to do this, like if I'm in an uber,
Speaker 1: I'll try to just look out the window at clouds.
Speaker 1: And I've definitely had drivers ask me if I'm okay
Speaker 1: when they see me doing.
Speaker 3: This, because so funny, I guess I look very unusual
Speaker 3: and I'm like.
Speaker 2: Literally like, look like, why aren't you on your phone?
Speaker 2: Why aren't you listening to something? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty nuts.
Speaker 1: And then the last possible answers, you could be like,
Speaker 1: I actually genuinely want to be on my phone right now,
Speaker 1: even if you didn't have a specific purpose, and even
Speaker 1: if you know that it's probably not going to make
Speaker 1: you feel good, you might just be like, no, no, I
Speaker 1: actually want to be doing this right now, and I
Speaker 1: really stress that, Like that's okay, Like don't beat yourself
Speaker 1: up over it. It's just a matter of making sure
Speaker 1: that when you are going to spend time on your phone,
Speaker 1: you feel good about it, that you made the decision
Speaker 1: to do it. It wasn't because you've been habituated to
Speaker 1: constantly check your phone and then you got sucked into
Speaker 1: like an algorithmically driven loop where you're you're not in
Speaker 1: control of your own actions. So those would be my
Speaker 1: first tips would be identify how you actually want to
Speaker 1: be spending your attention, and then once you have identified that,
Speaker 1: then get into the practice of asking yourself what for,
Speaker 1: why now? And what else when you pick up your phone.
Speaker 2: It's such a good set of prompts because again, I
Speaker 2: just do the mindless thing. I Sometimes we'll get to
Speaker 2: my phone, I'm like, there's something I wanted to do
Speaker 2: with this. I walk in a room and you're like,
Speaker 2: You're like, what is that looking for again? Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I just completely forget. If there's one thing you want
Speaker 2: to leave listeners with who've just heard this conversation, which
Speaker 2: by the way, was a lot of fun for me,
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, me too, What would it be?
Speaker 1: I think I would say, take fun seriously, Like, actually
Speaker 1: take some time today to do some of the things
Speaker 1: that you and I talked about, Like reflect on a
Speaker 1: past fun experience, brainstorm a couple of things you could
Speaker 1: do or try, you know, think about the last time
Speaker 1: that you did something that really filled you up or.
Speaker 3: Let you up, you know, and that you felt alive.
Speaker 1: What would make me happy from a listener who has
Speaker 1: tuned into this conversation is for this to inspire them
Speaker 1: to reconnect with something that makes them feel alive.
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much for listening. If you like this conversation,
Speaker 2: check out our episode called The Art of Gathering. It's
Speaker 2: all about how we can intentionally bring more connection, playfulness,
Speaker 2: and flow into our lives. And if this is your
Speaker 2: first time listening to a slight change of plans, We're
Speaker 2: so glad you're here. Check out the episode description for
Speaker 2: a list of some of my all time favorite episodes.
Speaker 2: It features a mix of incredible personal stories of change
Speaker 2: and practical, cutting edge behavioral insights that can help you
Speaker 2: live happier, healthier lives. We'll be back soon with another
Speaker 2: episode of A Slight Change of Plans. I'll see you then.
Speaker 2: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive
Speaker 2: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change Family includes
Speaker 2: our showrunner Alexandra Garratin, our editor Daphne Chen, our lead
Speaker 2: producer Megan Lubin, our associate producer Sonia Gerwit, and our
Speaker 2: sound engineer Erica Huang. Louis Scara wrote our delightful theme song,
Speaker 2: and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. A Slight Change
Speaker 2: of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries. So big
Speaker 2: thanks to everyone there, and of course a very special
Speaker 2: thanks to Jimmy Lee.
Speaker 3: I don't want to stayup past ten pm? Why would
Speaker 3: you do that?
Speaker 2: I have no idea.
Speaker 3: I don't know either. What do they do?
Speaker 2: I don't know? And then the next day, oh boy,
Speaker 2: they're not well rested.
Speaker 3: Fun.
Speaker 2: We don't like that.
Speaker 3: No, no again.
Speaker 2: I've been an octogenarian since the time, I was like fifteen,
Speaker 2: so yeah, I was born at eighty five