WEBVTT - True Fun in a Fake Fun World 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:31.596 Pushkin if you think about it, and I encourage people 0:00:31.596 --> 0:00:33.516 listening to try this. If you ask someone in your 0:00:33.516 --> 0:00:35.836 own life to share a story of past fun, just 0:00:35.956 --> 0:00:39.396 watch their face while they're telling you this story. There's 0:00:39.436 --> 0:00:43.516 really this amazing warmth and this glow that comes off 0:00:43.556 --> 0:00:46.236 of people, and it's very contagious. It really just lights 0:00:46.276 --> 0:00:46.876 people up. 0:00:47.676 --> 0:00:50.796 As adults, most of us don't have the time or 0:00:50.996 --> 0:00:54.796 energy to prioritize having fun. It kind of feels like 0:00:54.916 --> 0:00:58.876 a luxury good. But when some free time unexpectedly opened 0:00:58.956 --> 0:01:03.276 up for science journalists Catherine Price, she discovered just how 0:01:03.316 --> 0:01:06.116 restorative and life giving fun can be. 0:01:07.116 --> 0:01:09.036 That's what led me to write The Power of Fun. 0:01:09.276 --> 0:01:11.796 Was this curiosity about what is this feeling, how does 0:01:11.796 --> 0:01:14.556 it differ from what it says in the dictionary, what 0:01:14.756 --> 0:01:17.876 research is there on what this is doing for us? 0:01:18.316 --> 0:01:20.556 And then, perhaps most importantly, like how can I have 0:01:20.636 --> 0:01:22.156 more of it? Because it feels so good? 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:33.916 On today's episode how to Have More Fun, I'm Maya Schunker, 0:01:34.116 --> 0:01:37.556 a scientist who studies human behavior, and this is a 0:01:37.596 --> 0:01:40.556 slight change of plans, a show about who we are 0:01:40.836 --> 0:01:47.676 and who we become in the face of a big change. 0:01:53.716 --> 0:01:57.356 Catherine has spent years researching how people can live happy 0:01:57.476 --> 0:02:01.836 and meaningful lives in a world filled with distraction. She's 0:02:01.876 --> 0:02:04.316 written a number of books on the topic, including a 0:02:04.316 --> 0:02:07.636 bestseller called How to Break Up with Your Phone. After 0:02:07.676 --> 0:02:11.356 taking her own advice, Catherine discovered that less screen time 0:02:11.876 --> 0:02:14.876 left her with a surprising amount of free time. The 0:02:14.956 --> 0:02:18.156 problem was she had no idea what to do with 0:02:18.196 --> 0:02:21.836 that free time. Catherine had forgotten how to have fun. 0:02:22.716 --> 0:02:25.436 I remember there was this one afternoon when our daughter, 0:02:25.476 --> 0:02:27.036 at that point was a baby. She was napping, my 0:02:27.116 --> 0:02:29.196 husband was out running an errand, and I was sitting 0:02:29.276 --> 0:02:31.396 on the couch downstairs in our living room, and I 0:02:31.476 --> 0:02:34.316 was just lost. I was thinking, Okay, I have this 0:02:34.396 --> 0:02:36.636 whole hour in front of me. I can do whatever 0:02:36.676 --> 0:02:39.676 I want with this hour, and I don't know what 0:02:39.716 --> 0:02:41.716 I want to do. So I ended up having a 0:02:41.756 --> 0:02:44.836 bit of a mini existential crisis of thinking, like, here, 0:02:44.876 --> 0:02:46.876 I am trying to live life fully, I can't even 0:02:46.916 --> 0:02:48.596 figure out what I want to do for an hour 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:51.716 of free time. And so I ended up asking myself 0:02:51.716 --> 0:02:53.636 a question, and the question was, what's something you say 0:02:53.636 --> 0:02:55.476 you want to do but you supposedly don't have time for? 0:02:56.356 --> 0:02:58.076 And so my answer to that question was I wanted 0:02:58.116 --> 0:03:00.996 to try to learn guitar because I had been given 0:03:00.996 --> 0:03:03.076 a guitar by my grandmother when I was in college. 0:03:03.316 --> 0:03:05.076 So I thought, well, I should learn to play guitar, 0:03:05.116 --> 0:03:07.036 and so I found this class. It was a class 0:03:07.036 --> 0:03:09.116 at a children's music studio, but it was for adults, 0:03:09.196 --> 0:03:10.996 and I signed up and I went to this class, 0:03:11.076 --> 0:03:14.636 and I just started to have this feeling when I 0:03:14.676 --> 0:03:18.516 was in the class, like this just happy feeling that 0:03:18.596 --> 0:03:20.476 stayed with me for the rest of the week. And 0:03:20.516 --> 0:03:23.316 we were not trying to become professional musicians we were 0:03:23.436 --> 0:03:25.756 in that session. I distinctly remember learning the theme song 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:27.796 from Mauana, how Far I'll Go. 0:03:28.036 --> 0:03:30.356 I literally was just saying last night, that's one of 0:03:30.396 --> 0:03:32.396 my top Disney songs of all time, which she has 0:03:32.436 --> 0:03:34.116 the key change midway through the song. 0:03:34.236 --> 0:03:35.556 The modulation in my life. 0:03:35.636 --> 0:03:36.396 Yeah, the modulation. 0:03:36.516 --> 0:03:39.236 I'm like, oh my god, I know a good modulation 0:03:39.276 --> 0:03:40.476 will get you every time. 0:03:41.036 --> 0:03:42.556 Yeah, like it's so good. 0:03:42.676 --> 0:03:44.716 So yeah, well we didn't sound like that, I guess 0:03:44.796 --> 0:03:48.316 was at a point there we sounded very mediocre. But 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:50.396 I just loved this class and I was trying to 0:03:50.396 --> 0:03:52.636 figure out what am I experiencing and it took me 0:03:52.756 --> 0:03:54.756 an embarrassingly long time to realize, Oh, the best word 0:03:54.796 --> 0:03:57.396 to describe this is fun. I'm really having fun, And 0:03:57.436 --> 0:04:00.596 I think that speaks to how foreign this feeling can 0:04:00.756 --> 0:04:04.676 be too adults. And so I was like, this feels 0:04:04.676 --> 0:04:06.596 so good? How do I have more of this feeling? 0:04:06.716 --> 0:04:09.356 And so then I kind of tapped into my science 0:04:09.396 --> 0:04:11.076 journalist self and I was like, Okay, well, I wonder 0:04:11.116 --> 0:04:13.356 what this is, like what is fun? And then I 0:04:13.356 --> 0:04:15.236 looked it up in the dictionary and it was said 0:04:15.236 --> 0:04:18.396 it was lighthearted amusement or pleasure something like that, and 0:04:18.436 --> 0:04:22.716 that didn't match at all the exuberant feeling I was experiencing. 0:04:22.436 --> 0:04:25.236 Like the energy, life giving aspect of it. 0:04:25.476 --> 0:04:27.756 Yes, So that's what led me to write The Power 0:04:27.796 --> 0:04:30.276 of Fun was this kind of curiosity about what is 0:04:30.316 --> 0:04:32.876 this feeling, how does it differ from what it says 0:04:32.916 --> 0:04:35.876 in the dictionary, what research is there on what this 0:04:36.196 --> 0:04:39.196 is doing for us? And then, perhaps most importantly, like 0:04:39.276 --> 0:04:41.116 how can I have more of it? Because it feels 0:04:41.116 --> 0:04:41.556 so good. 0:04:42.076 --> 0:04:45.036 I absolutely loved reading your book, Catherine, because it occurred 0:04:45.036 --> 0:04:50.956 to me that I have never thought about fun. I've 0:04:50.996 --> 0:04:53.756 never thought to define it. I've never thought about whether 0:04:53.796 --> 0:04:56.956 I'm having enough of it. It just is never something 0:04:56.996 --> 0:04:59.836 that's crossed my mind in my adulthood. 0:05:00.196 --> 0:05:01.996 You're definitely not alone in that most people I don't 0:05:01.996 --> 0:05:05.036 think have thought about fun. I'm just fascinated in general. 0:05:05.076 --> 0:05:07.236 I should start by saying, just buy these words and 0:05:07.276 --> 0:05:09.596 these concepts that we use all the time but don't 0:05:09.596 --> 0:05:11.956 really think about. And I think that part of the 0:05:11.956 --> 0:05:15.876 reason adults don't think about fun that much is that, 0:05:16.116 --> 0:05:18.236 like fun was drilled out of us as kids because 0:05:18.276 --> 0:05:20.796 it's not valued as an emotion or an experience or 0:05:20.836 --> 0:05:22.596 a feeling. And so you know, it's like this get 0:05:22.636 --> 0:05:25.916 back to work that people erroneously think that fun and 0:05:25.996 --> 0:05:29.036 work can't exist at the same time. And so I 0:05:29.076 --> 0:05:32.756 think we kind of been taught to not value fun 0:05:32.836 --> 0:05:34.756 and to not even think about putting work in to 0:05:34.876 --> 0:05:38.716 have fun because it's not as important as answering our 0:05:38.756 --> 0:05:43.076 emails or you know, or like doing something with our kids, 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:45.436 or taking care of a household, errand or whatever it 0:05:45.476 --> 0:05:47.076 may be. It really ends up at the bottom of 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:47.996 the priority list. 0:05:48.316 --> 0:05:52.916 Yes, you keep calling fun a feeling, right, which divorces 0:05:52.956 --> 0:05:56.436 it from any given activity that someone engages in. And 0:05:56.516 --> 0:05:59.716 you've also shared a definition you find insufficient when it 0:05:59.756 --> 0:06:03.716 comes to fun. How do you define fun the feeling 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:07.036 of fun now that you conducted all this research about it. 0:06:07.356 --> 0:06:09.836 Yeah, the reason I say it's a feeling is exactly 0:06:09.836 --> 0:06:11.996 what you're hitting on is that you can have the 0:06:12.036 --> 0:06:14.796 exact same activity and sometimes it's incredibly fun, and then 0:06:14.796 --> 0:06:17.196 sometimes it's just mediocre, but you're doing the same thing. 0:06:17.516 --> 0:06:20.636 I sent a survey out to people on my mailing list, 0:06:20.756 --> 0:06:23.636 and I asked people to share with me three stories 0:06:23.636 --> 0:06:25.996 of past fun experiences that stood out to them. This 0:06:26.076 --> 0:06:28.196 was not very scientific, but I said, tell me a 0:06:28.196 --> 0:06:30.436 story that was quote so fun, and I capitalized so 0:06:30.476 --> 0:06:32.156 because I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it. 0:06:32.876 --> 0:06:34.996 And I got thousands of stories from people around the 0:06:35.036 --> 0:06:38.996 world describing these fun experiences, and first of all, it 0:06:38.996 --> 0:06:41.156 would clear that something deeper was going on than that 0:06:41.196 --> 0:06:44.316 Dictionary definition of just lighthearted pleasure, because when I read 0:06:44.316 --> 0:06:47.716 their stories, I would find myself smiling and also feeling 0:06:47.876 --> 0:06:50.956 very emotional. They were really tapping into something that was 0:06:50.996 --> 0:06:53.476 like profoundly human and moving in a way that was 0:06:53.556 --> 0:06:56.516 very unexpected. One that I always remember as someone who 0:06:56.516 --> 0:06:59.116 said that one of their memories that was so fun 0:06:59.276 --> 0:07:02.916 was when they were with their grandfather and they deliberately 0:07:02.956 --> 0:07:05.956 went out during a rainstorm without umbrellas and they let 0:07:05.956 --> 0:07:08.356 themselves get soaked in the rain. 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:12.396 Yeah, oh wow. I feel moved by that just hearing it. 0:07:12.396 --> 0:07:15.316 It's just these little, precious moments. Some of them involved 0:07:15.316 --> 0:07:16.876 trips and stuff like that, but a lot of them didn't. 0:07:16.876 --> 0:07:18.756 A lot of them were quite mundane and didn't involve 0:07:18.756 --> 0:07:21.036 a lot of money. But you know what I noticed 0:07:21.036 --> 0:07:24.356 in these stories is there was just this similar feeling 0:07:24.556 --> 0:07:26.436 that was behind all of the stories, even though the 0:07:26.476 --> 0:07:29.156 details were very different, and there was this sense of 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:32.636 almost euphoria, and a lot of them this sense of 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:37.156 profound connection, this sense of just time standing still, of 0:07:37.316 --> 0:07:40.876 losing themselves in the moment of their inner critic going silent, 0:07:40.956 --> 0:07:43.996 and just of being really fully alive. And I encourage 0:07:43.996 --> 0:07:46.036 people listening to try this. If you ask someone in 0:07:46.036 --> 0:07:48.116 your own life to share a story of past fun, 0:07:48.396 --> 0:07:52.076 do this experiment, but with somebody else. Just watch their 0:07:52.116 --> 0:07:54.556 face while they're telling you the story and try to 0:07:54.556 --> 0:07:56.556 pick up on the energy that they give off. There's 0:07:56.596 --> 0:08:00.636 really this amazing warmth and this glow that comes off 0:08:00.676 --> 0:08:02.836 of people, and it's very contagious. You know, if you're 0:08:02.876 --> 0:08:05.076 going to have a contagious emotion or feeling like fun 0:08:05.156 --> 0:08:08.116 is a really good one to be around. It really 0:08:08.156 --> 0:08:09.316 just lights people up. 0:08:09.836 --> 0:08:13.996 You also say that fun is a core part of 0:08:14.036 --> 0:08:17.756 our well being and a significant contributor to happiness. But 0:08:17.916 --> 0:08:21.836 it's so easy for us to see fun as this frivolous, 0:08:22.356 --> 0:08:24.996 nice to have thing. Can you share a bit more 0:08:25.276 --> 0:08:28.636 about the research here, like why why should any person 0:08:28.716 --> 0:08:32.436 listening to this think, yes, it's worth my time to 0:08:32.516 --> 0:08:33.956 invest in having more fun. 0:08:35.436 --> 0:08:37.076 Well, first of all, because you deserve to have fun 0:08:37.156 --> 0:08:39.356 and it's a wonderful state to be in. 0:08:39.796 --> 0:08:43.636 But you're making a deep philosophical point, which is some 0:08:43.756 --> 0:08:47.276 things we deserve just by virtue of existing as humans 0:08:47.276 --> 0:08:50.156 and being here on this earth, and we shouldn't need 0:08:50.196 --> 0:08:54.956 to justify something like fun. I think that's as simple 0:08:54.996 --> 0:08:58.236 as the argument goes, right, Yeah, yeah, it is. 0:08:58.196 --> 0:08:59.036 A really deep point. 0:08:59.076 --> 0:09:01.556 It's like, fundamentally, I do want to just stress that 0:09:01.756 --> 0:09:04.596 we deserve to enjoy our own lives. And honestly, if 0:09:04.636 --> 0:09:07.796 you are having more fun, it will energize you in 0:09:07.796 --> 0:09:10.196 a way that will help you more good in the 0:09:10.236 --> 0:09:12.436 world and be better to other people and I think 0:09:12.436 --> 0:09:13.596 I feel that very strongly. 0:09:13.756 --> 0:09:14.956 I know that certainly personally. 0:09:14.956 --> 0:09:17.436 When I'm having enough fun, I'm a much better partner 0:09:17.476 --> 0:09:19.196 to my husband and a much better parent. 0:09:19.476 --> 0:09:23.236 Yeah, in your book, you distinguish between fake fun and 0:09:23.316 --> 0:09:25.156 true fun. So what's fake fun? 0:09:25.436 --> 0:09:27.716 So fake fun is a term I came up with 0:09:27.836 --> 0:09:31.116 to describe the activities and products that are marketed to 0:09:31.196 --> 0:09:34.156 us as fun, but they don't lead to this nourished 0:09:34.196 --> 0:09:37.476 feeling of true fun. The most quintessential examples of fake 0:09:37.556 --> 0:09:41.356 fun are social media, for sure, where you turn to 0:09:41.436 --> 0:09:44.836 it for entertainment or because you've got a moment of boredom, 0:09:44.916 --> 0:09:46.596 or you want to escape your own thoughts or whatever, 0:09:46.636 --> 0:09:48.596 and you get caught in a doom spiral and or 0:09:48.916 --> 0:09:51.036 doom scrolling, and then you look up forty five minutes 0:09:51.076 --> 0:09:53.396 this past. Even if you like think you enjoyed it 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:55.276 and maybe there were some memes that made you laugh 0:09:55.356 --> 0:09:58.076 or whatever, it doesn't leave you feeling nourished. If you're 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:00.436 struggling to try to figure out how to distinguish between 0:10:00.436 --> 0:10:03.276 things that are fake fun and true fun, one way 0:10:03.276 --> 0:10:06.036 to think about it is what leaves you with memories, 0:10:06.676 --> 0:10:10.116 you know, even if they're tiny, little memories. So in 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:12.076 all the years I've spent talking to people about fun, 0:10:12.156 --> 0:10:14.076 no one has told me about the memory that they 0:10:14.116 --> 0:10:17.596 had of scrolling for an hour and a half on Instagram. 0:10:17.876 --> 0:10:20.996 As opposed to these little moments of true fun that 0:10:21.076 --> 0:10:23.876 might be very mundane or just like unexpected, where it 0:10:23.876 --> 0:10:27.356 creates a memory that you can hold on to. Fake 0:10:27.396 --> 0:10:30.476 fun is kind of like the junk food of leisure time, 0:10:30.476 --> 0:10:32.676 I think, where like, maybe it tastes really good at first, 0:10:32.836 --> 0:10:34.436 but then when you do it for too long, then 0:10:34.476 --> 0:10:35.956 you're like, oh, actually, I don't feel like that was a. 0:10:35.876 --> 0:10:36.796 Good use of my time. 0:10:37.076 --> 0:10:38.956 And then you have on the other end of that 0:10:38.996 --> 0:10:42.036 spectrum these the feeling of true fun, which to me 0:10:42.156 --> 0:10:43.276 is like I can't get enough of that. 0:10:43.596 --> 0:10:45.716 I know, I don't want this dinner party to end. 0:10:45.796 --> 0:10:49.596 I don't want that. Yes, this wedding, like this is 0:10:49.596 --> 0:10:51.156 such a fun wedding. You know you don't want the 0:10:51.196 --> 0:10:54.956 experience to end. That's a really good temperature tech of 0:10:54.996 --> 0:10:56.756 whether having a true fun round if you truly don't 0:10:56.756 --> 0:10:59.556 want it to end. How do we think about individual 0:10:59.636 --> 0:11:03.276 differences when it comes to our propensity for fun? So 0:11:04.116 --> 0:11:06.676 I think a lot of people are like I'm just 0:11:06.716 --> 0:11:09.036 not like a super fun person, Like I'm just not 0:11:09.236 --> 0:11:11.356 that's fun. I mean, I would say that about myself even, 0:11:11.436 --> 0:11:14.676 like I feel like a happy person who has fun, 0:11:14.716 --> 0:11:17.676 but her bar for fun is so low. Like I 0:11:17.716 --> 0:11:20.316 don't drink. I go to bed at ten pm every night, 0:11:20.476 --> 0:11:23.476 and a perfect day for me is like doing the 0:11:23.516 --> 0:11:25.196 same things that I do every day, because I'm a 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:28.356 creature of habit and I lack an adventurous spirit. It 0:11:28.516 --> 0:11:31.036 just seems like in my life I've come across people 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:36.796 who feel like fun madness Catherine, Like they just they 0:11:36.876 --> 0:11:39.516 gravitate towards fun, but they also make fun out of 0:11:39.596 --> 0:11:42.996 ordinary situations. And I just wonder whether some people just 0:11:43.036 --> 0:11:46.996 have an easier time having fun than other people. Asking 0:11:46.996 --> 0:11:47.796 for a friend. 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:51.356 Right, exactly, Certainly some people have an easier time having 0:11:51.436 --> 0:11:53.676 fun than other people. But I would say that's more 0:11:53.716 --> 0:11:55.916 about the ability to let go or silence that inner 0:11:55.956 --> 0:11:58.316 critic than anything else. And I actually ask people in 0:11:58.316 --> 0:12:00.836 this very long survey that people kindly filled out for me, 0:12:01.156 --> 0:12:03.156 I asked them to describe someone in their life that 0:12:03.196 --> 0:12:05.956 they would call a fun person, and then I asked them, like, 0:12:05.996 --> 0:12:08.436 what made that person fun? And I think that coming 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:10.876 into that I have thought what you just said is like, Okay, 0:12:10.876 --> 0:12:12.276 they must be the life of the party. 0:12:12.316 --> 0:12:14.356 They must be the class clown. They must be the 0:12:14.556 --> 0:12:16.956 person who's getting everyone on a I don't know, like 0:12:16.956 --> 0:12:19.196 a boat. I feel like there's boats involved from that, right, 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:21.636 there has to be vote, There's got to be a boat. 0:12:21.756 --> 0:12:24.836 Yeah. So, but that wasn't the case at all that 0:12:24.956 --> 0:12:28.196 they said things like the people that they knew who 0:12:28.236 --> 0:12:30.916 they considered to be fun, they would laugh easily, they 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:33.276 made other people feel comfortable in their presence, they were 0:12:33.316 --> 0:12:36.116 often up for trying new things. It was really much 0:12:36.116 --> 0:12:40.436 more of an attitude towards life and an attention to 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:42.796 how they made other people feel than it was any 0:12:42.916 --> 0:12:46.876 kind of personality trait. And it certainly wasn't like genetic. 0:12:46.916 --> 0:12:48.676 It wasn't like certain people are just fun. I mean, 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:50.836 you certainly can have certain people who are more extroverted 0:12:50.836 --> 0:12:53.196 than others, which I think we often also erroneous the 0:12:53.276 --> 0:12:55.636 associate with being fun. But you have lots of people 0:12:55.716 --> 0:12:59.996 who definitely are introverts, who are able to make people 0:13:00.036 --> 0:13:03.116 feel comfortable in their presence and create this safe environment 0:13:03.156 --> 0:13:04.636 for fun. I think a lot of it does have 0:13:04.676 --> 0:13:07.916 to do with the ability to make people feel safe 0:13:08.316 --> 0:13:10.476 so that they can down their guard and be a 0:13:10.476 --> 0:13:12.996 little silly, be a little playful, you know, let out 0:13:12.996 --> 0:13:15.796 other sides of their personality that if they felt more 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:18.036 self conscious, they wouldn't be able to. So I actually 0:13:18.036 --> 0:13:19.076 found that really interesting. 0:13:19.236 --> 0:13:22.236 That is super interesting, and I'm having a bit of 0:13:22.236 --> 0:13:25.876 a moment because as someone who self identifies as like 0:13:26.076 --> 0:13:31.516 conservative fun person, as not the kind of stereotypical version 0:13:31.516 --> 0:13:33.836 of a fun person that you see portrayed in movies 0:13:33.916 --> 0:13:37.596 or whatnot, you're building my fun self confidence, which is 0:13:38.396 --> 0:13:41.516 I am really easy to like smile and laugh, and 0:13:42.236 --> 0:13:45.876 I love animated discussions and conversations and hearing from other people. 0:13:45.996 --> 0:13:50.836 So you're helping me realize that that allows other people 0:13:51.236 --> 0:13:53.996 to do the primary thing required to have fun, which 0:13:54.076 --> 0:13:57.476 is to break down some of the barriers, some of 0:13:57.516 --> 0:13:59.956 the walls that stand between them and other people, and 0:14:00.076 --> 0:14:04.036 to enter this situation with a little bit less fearfulness, 0:14:04.076 --> 0:14:05.756 with a little more fearlessness. 0:14:06.316 --> 0:14:08.676 Yeah, to your point, I think it's actually really important 0:14:08.716 --> 0:14:10.316 and this was a big breakthrough for me as well, 0:14:10.356 --> 0:14:13.436 as like, don't focus on these stereotypes. 0:14:13.476 --> 0:14:16.276 Instead ask yourself, like, what makes you feel. 0:14:15.996 --> 0:14:21.116 Alive after the break, Catherine reveals how we can all 0:14:21.116 --> 0:14:25.676 bring more fun into our lives. No boats required. We'll 0:14:25.676 --> 0:14:30.316 be back in a moment with a slight change of plans. 0:14:49.076 --> 0:14:51.676 Catherine Price says that no matter who you are or 0:14:51.676 --> 0:14:55.956 what activities you enjoy, the recipe for true fun usually 0:14:55.996 --> 0:15:00.716 calls for three ingredients playfulness, connection, and flow. 0:15:01.156 --> 0:15:03.996 When I say playfulness, a lot of adults clench up. 0:15:04.036 --> 0:15:06.996 I can like feel it. They're like, I can't play 0:15:07.116 --> 0:15:08.356 like I'm playful. 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:11.476 And I think that's because we often think that it 0:15:11.476 --> 0:15:13.716 means you have to be silly, because it's not that. Yeah, 0:15:13.716 --> 0:15:15.716 it's not like let me tell you a joke, you know, 0:15:15.796 --> 0:15:18.596 or like. By playfulness, I'm really talking about your attitude. 0:15:18.596 --> 0:15:21.516 It's about having a lighthearted attitude towards life or towards 0:15:21.596 --> 0:15:25.396 the situation. Okay, it's finding ways to laugh, it's finding humor, 0:15:25.596 --> 0:15:28.556 it's silencing your inner critic. And that's where I think 0:15:28.596 --> 0:15:33.636 the vulnerability of fun shows up. There's something vulnerable about 0:15:33.716 --> 0:15:36.516 allowing yourself to be a bit playful, yeah, you know, 0:15:36.556 --> 0:15:39.356 about finding a way to laugh with the other person, 0:15:39.636 --> 0:15:41.156 not taking yourself too seriously. 0:15:41.756 --> 0:15:44.716 You write in your book that it's the spirit where 0:15:45.356 --> 0:15:47.316 you know you're doing an activity just for the sake 0:15:47.356 --> 0:15:49.556 of doing the activity. You don't care too much about 0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:51.836 the outcome. Tell me a little bit more about what 0:15:51.876 --> 0:15:52.396 you mean by that. 0:15:53.476 --> 0:15:56.116 Yes, one of the other really important things about playfulness 0:15:56.276 --> 0:15:58.916 is that you go into an activity without worrying too 0:15:58.956 --> 0:16:01.796 much about what the result is going to be, which 0:16:01.836 --> 0:16:03.716 is very rare in adult life. 0:16:03.756 --> 0:16:05.836 And I think all of us can think of. 0:16:05.756 --> 0:16:07.716 A memory in which you were playing some kind of 0:16:07.716 --> 0:16:09.836 game or sports or whatever with someone else and it 0:16:09.876 --> 0:16:12.196 was fun, and then they start someone started taking it 0:16:12.196 --> 0:16:14.556 too seriously, and then all of a sudden it wasn't fun, 0:16:14.716 --> 0:16:16.636 you know, like a board game night and suddenly someone 0:16:16.716 --> 0:16:18.796 really wants to win taboo or whatever it is. It 0:16:18.836 --> 0:16:20.596 doesn't mean you can't care about the outcome, like you 0:16:20.676 --> 0:16:22.356 might want to win, but it's like there is this 0:16:22.476 --> 0:16:25.796 line where it starts to turn into something bigger than 0:16:25.836 --> 0:16:26.756 just enjoying the moment. 0:16:27.076 --> 0:16:30.996 Yeah, okay, let's talk about the second element, connection. Why 0:16:31.076 --> 0:16:33.236 is that a critical element? And what do we mean 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:33.756 by connection? 0:16:34.476 --> 0:16:37.316 So connection refers to the feeling of having a special 0:16:37.356 --> 0:16:40.596 shared experience, and this was something that came up again 0:16:40.596 --> 0:16:43.036 and again and again and again in people's stories, regardless 0:16:43.036 --> 0:16:45.756 of whether they were introverts or extroverts. Because I specifically said, like, 0:16:45.836 --> 0:16:47.756 is there anything that surprised you about your answers? And 0:16:47.796 --> 0:16:49.276 there were a number of people who said, I'm a 0:16:49.276 --> 0:16:51.676 self proclaimed introvert, but all the stories that has told 0:16:51.716 --> 0:16:52.756 you involved another person. 0:16:53.076 --> 0:16:53.556 Wow. 0:16:53.596 --> 0:16:54.116 Interesting. 0:16:54.436 --> 0:16:56.596 I think that the difference between introverts and extroverts there 0:16:56.676 --> 0:16:58.516 was that like introverts, it might be in a much 0:16:58.556 --> 0:16:59.636 more intimate setting. 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:01.796 Yes, people they know, Yeah, people. 0:17:01.556 --> 0:17:04.196 They know, versus someone who is the quote life of 0:17:04.236 --> 0:17:07.596 the party and who is kind of deriving energy from 0:17:07.676 --> 0:17:11.836 these bigger groups of people. They're also, interestingly a number 0:17:11.836 --> 0:17:14.556 of people who had moments of true fun with their dog. 0:17:15.196 --> 0:17:17.796 There were not as many cat stories, but it was 0:17:17.916 --> 0:17:19.796 very interesting if you think about it, because what's a 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:20.876 dog if not playful? 0:17:20.956 --> 0:17:21.156 Right? 0:17:21.236 --> 0:17:23.476 So anyway, people, some people had the sense of connection 0:17:23.556 --> 0:17:26.156 with their dogs, but the vast majority of stories involved 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:28.316 another person, And I just thought that was so interesting. 0:17:29.036 --> 0:17:30.596 How do we think about that though? Because there are 0:17:30.636 --> 0:17:35.836 people in my life I know who relish being in isolation, right, 0:17:35.876 --> 0:17:37.836 so not lonely, because I know loneliness is a state 0:17:37.836 --> 0:17:40.676 of mind that can be negative. But I think about 0:17:40.716 --> 0:17:43.796 my dad, for example, Like for him a dream would 0:17:43.836 --> 0:17:47.236 be like an Eggs Benedict brunch with a great book, 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:50.356 sitting at a cafe, and like he would just have 0:17:50.476 --> 0:17:53.676 the time of his life. So surely we can't have 0:17:53.716 --> 0:17:55.196 true fun alone, right. 0:17:55.556 --> 0:17:57.556 I think there are some people who can have fun, 0:17:57.676 --> 0:17:59.516 true fun alone, But I will say I think it's 0:17:59.636 --> 0:18:03.516 rareer than we think, because when you're describing that scene, 0:18:03.636 --> 0:18:06.556 to me, that's like maybe true enjoyment, like he's savoring it, 0:18:06.596 --> 0:18:09.916 he's really loving that. But to me doesn't feel the 0:18:09.996 --> 0:18:13.556 same as the stories in which people talk about true fun. 0:18:13.596 --> 0:18:17.156 And I'd be curious of like psychio critical example, But 0:18:17.196 --> 0:18:19.396 if you ask your dad, like do you remember, like 0:18:19.436 --> 0:18:22.716 if you talked about ask him, does eggs Benedict alone 0:18:22.756 --> 0:18:24.876 with a book pop to the top of the list? 0:18:24.916 --> 0:18:26.916 And maybe it does, in which case, like more power 0:18:26.956 --> 0:18:29.116 to you. If that truly is fun, I think you 0:18:29.156 --> 0:18:31.516 can have a sense of connection with yourself and with 0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:34.476 the activity. But it's very interesting to me how infrequent 0:18:34.556 --> 0:18:34.996 that was. 0:18:36.116 --> 0:18:39.356 The third element is flow. Can you just quickly define 0:18:39.476 --> 0:18:41.156 flow for us and what that means? 0:18:41.756 --> 0:18:44.116 So flow is the state we get into when we're 0:18:44.156 --> 0:18:47.716 totally absorbed and engaged in what we're doing. We often 0:18:47.716 --> 0:18:49.556 lose track of time when we're in flow, but not 0:18:49.676 --> 0:18:51.916 in the sense of like I watched Netflix for seven 0:18:51.956 --> 0:18:54.316 hours and I lost track of time. That's very passive 0:18:54.636 --> 0:18:57.476 and it's a consumptive state. It's what would be known 0:18:57.516 --> 0:19:00.156 as like junk flow. We're talking about when you are 0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:04.076 fully engaged in your activities. So the man who coined 0:19:04.116 --> 0:19:06.356 the term flow actually was studying rock climbers, and if 0:19:06.356 --> 0:19:08.556 you think about someone who's rock climbing, like you have 0:19:08.596 --> 0:19:11.276 to be entirely engaged in present in what you're turned. 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:12.396 So you don't fall off the rock face. 0:19:12.916 --> 0:19:15.116 But yeah, it could be an athlete playing a game, 0:19:15.236 --> 0:19:17.996 musician playing a piece of music, really anything where you're 0:19:17.996 --> 0:19:21.156 in the zone and everything else seems to melt away. 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:24.356 You're also at this sweet spot of feeling challenged but 0:19:24.396 --> 0:19:27.236