WEBVTT - #507 Jason Flom with Eric Glisson 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:06.680 In January nineteen ninety five, two murders occurred in the Bronx. 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.200 One was a Federal Express executive named Denise Raymond, the 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:16.360 other a livery cab driver named Bath d'ap. Eventually, an 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:20.040 alleged witness and her teenage translator claimed to have information 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.759 that one had seen a group of assault from her window 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.960 and that they both overheard a group of young men 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.400 talking about robbing a cab and a girl. The police 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.520 also believed Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend was involved, as well 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.839 as someone who had allegedly called the car service to 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:42.440 set up the cab driver. In total, seven people were 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.560 charged with one or both of the murders, including Eric Listen, 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:52.120 who ascends to twenty five to life. This is wrongful Conviction. 0:00:56.560 --> 0:00:59.400 You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.160 and all the Lava for Good podcast one week early 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:05.600 and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:17.200 on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. This 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:20.520 is the story I've been waiting a long time to tell. 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.560 It's almost too much. It's got a gang called Sex 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.360 Money Murder, a Bronx drug gang. It's got an ear 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:31.440 witness who somehow or other was lucky enough to be 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:35.280 a witnessed to two different murders that happened about thirty 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:39.319 six hours apart, separate crimes, who herself was kind of 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.279 a let's just say, a complicated character. It's got six 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:47.600 wrongfully convicted people, one of whom's here with us today, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:53.120 and that's just the beginning. So without further ado, I'm 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:56.960 so excited to have with us today the man who 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:01.320 lived through this. Eric listen, thanks for being there, Thank you, Jason, 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.320 and with Eric here today is a guy I can 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.880 only describe as a hero of the indist movement who's 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:16.320 reporting and investigative journalism has resulted in freeing quite a 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.440 number of wrong for convicted men that I'm so happy, 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:21.920 Dan Slepian, that you're here on the show to help 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.040 tell the story that you actually played a key role in. 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:25.160 So we'll get to that later. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:27.959 Brother. You're like a kindred spirit, and for you to 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:29.800 say that about me is kind of silly, to be 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:32.760 honest with you, because you're like the north star of 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.880 everybody in this movement and a mentor figure. Because I'm younger. 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:47.480 Than so okay, so Eric, before this insane Ordeal befell you. 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:49.520 What was your life like growing up? 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.560 Well, my family were very close. I didn't have my 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:55.640 father too much in my life. He lived in Colorado 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:59.040 with his new wife and my brother and my sister, 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:02.840 so I was raised by my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather, 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:06.160 and all of my uncles, which was six in total. 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:09.480 My mother was the only daughter, however, actually passed away 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.919 and I was left to the care of my grandmother, 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:16.680 who couldn't handle me. Because I was twelve years old, 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:19.760 I thought I knew everything, so I mainly hung out 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.120 in the park with my friends. But we were into 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:26.840 gangs causing mischief. We were in causing any problems in 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.920 the community. I grew up in Classing Point Gardens, which 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.560 is next to Soundview Projects, and so mixing up with 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:37.280 a few of the guys from Soundview, Classing Point as 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.840 well as Saquan, we all just became like one close 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.560 knit community and there was a lot of support from 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.360 everyone because if you're seeing anyone in the street doing 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:51.760 anything wrong before you reach home, someone knew about it 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.240 from your family. But mainly I stood to myself. I 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:58.280 was like a really introvert after my mother's death, and 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.360 I supported myself with cutting grass in the neighborhood. I 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.560 did your front yard for five, your backyard for five, 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:07.240 and your hedges for three. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.520 Soon Eric was eighteen years old with a daughter on 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:10.920 the way. 0:04:11.400 --> 0:04:16.280 I was going to every doctor's appointment, every sonogram, being 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.839 there when she was born, just waiting to be a father, 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.640 waiting for this new experience, and just suddenly one day, 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:26.400 one morning, and just all crashed. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:30.000 Down on me, and the murder itself. The first crime 0:04:30.560 --> 0:04:34.160 was Denise Raymond, and she was a thirty eight year 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.560 old woman. We're talking a cold night on January seventeenth 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:41.560 of nineteen ninety five. She was a FedEx executive, which 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.920 probably added a little pressure to the police investigation, and 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:46.960 we know how that goes. When they feel pressured, they 0:04:47.279 --> 0:04:51.159 cut some corners too often. And she was found the 0:04:51.240 --> 0:04:55.480 following morning, January eighteenth, bound, gagged and blindfolded in her 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:57.880 Bronx apartment. That she had been shot twice in the head. 0:04:58.360 --> 0:05:00.960 So this was even in the high crime you know 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:05.200 time that this was really a horrible crime. And then 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.039 four thirty am on January nineteenth, so this is less 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.799 than twenty four hours after miss Raymond had been found 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.320 forty three year old bath Theopp. He was a driver 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.400 for the new Harlem car service and he was found 0:05:16.400 --> 0:05:19.160 fatally shot on a Bronx street and what police said 0:05:19.200 --> 0:05:22.320 appeared to be a robbery. So now the pressure ramps 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:25.520 up even more because this seems like almost like a spree, right. 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.719 But they were only linked by geography, right, because other 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:30.880 than that, there's nothing to connect them at all. 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.400 Other than the detectives were a team. His cases were 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.560 not connected at all. Bath Dyop's body was found. It 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:40.200 was a rookie detective from the forty third Precinct by 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.880 the name of Mike Donnelly, who has assigned that case. 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.120 It was only his second murder investigation. His mentor was 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.960 on the verge of retirement on his last Thomiside case, 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.360 a guy named Thomas Iello, a detective and a few 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:54.920 hours before the bath Dopp murder, as you said, is 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.159 when they found Denise Raymond's body, and Thomas Iyello, Mike 0:05:58.240 --> 0:06:02.320 Donnelly's mentor, was the lead detective on the Denise Raymond 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.040 murder case. They weren't connected at all other than the 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.440 fact that those two detectives knew each other and were 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:08.800 a team. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.839 And this team was having trouble producing any promising leads. 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:16.000 They'd been looking at Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, Charles McKinnon, 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:18.160 but they'd hit a wall until two weeks later, when 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.880 Detective Donnelly picked up a teenager named Hanley Gomez on 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:23.280 an unrelated charge. 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.240 When they got a young kid named Hanley Gomez in 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.760 the precinct on another charge, they questioned him about the 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.880 taxi driver and the FedEx Exectly, he told them that 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:38.560 he knew someone that might have information about it because 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.440 she lived directly across the street from where the taxi 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:42.480 murder took place. 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:45.480 Goma said, there's a woman, Miriam Taveres, who's a homeless 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.479 prostitute that stays on my couch. So Donnelly goes over 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:52.760 to the house and Goma's sister, Kathy Gmez, a sixteen 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:56.000 year old girl, was asked by the detective to be 0:06:56.160 --> 0:07:00.000 a translator because Miriam Tavera is the main witness, only 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:04.560 spoke Spanish and Donnelly only spoke English. Miriam Taveries said 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.680 she saw heard what five people, six people did and 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:11.680 said in a place where she couldn't possibly see in 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.520 what she said she saw and picks out five young 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:16.880 men from the neighborhood, most of whom don't really even 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.120 know each other, saying that they did it Detective Donnelly 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:23.200 by the time he left the apartment that sixteen year 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:26.120 old sister Kathy Gomez also all of a sudden became 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.200 a witness, saying she overheard what these guys were saying. 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.400 The Gomez statement said that on January seventeenth, a group 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.760 of young men was overheard talking about quote, robbing a 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.880 taxi and a girl end quote. The group that she 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:46.400 was talking about was seventeen year old Israel Basquez, eighteen 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.080 year old Devin Ayers, nineteen year old Michael Cosme, and 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:54.280 twenty five year old Carlos Perez. In addition, Miriam Tavares 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.920 also allegedly overheard them discussing the Denise Raymond murder, and 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:03.400 then she claimed that on January nineteenth, she heard gunshots, 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.480 looked out the window and saw the group fleeing back 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.440 the ops car along with eighteen year old Derek Clisten. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.080 Meanwhile, we have the crime scene tape, we know where 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.480 the cab driver came to rest after the shooting. That 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.120 went to the crime scene. She could not have possibly 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:19.360 seen what she said she saw. But there were five 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.480 men arrested at first for the cab driver murder and 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.880 the Denise Raymer murder. But the cops weren't done because 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:28.880 Detective Donnelly had this theory from the night of the 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:33.040 crime that whoever called the cab that night must be involved. 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.600 So he went to the cab dispatcher and she said, 0:08:37.080 --> 0:08:39.080 I think it's a woman named r Vett who calls 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.559 all the time, and so Donnelly says, if a vet calls, 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:43.000 tell her I want to talk to her. So a 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.080 couple weeks later, this woman calls her a cab and 0:08:46.120 --> 0:08:49.200 the dispatcher is like, sounds like a vet, And the 0:08:49.240 --> 0:08:52.360 dispatcher says to Yvette, the cops want to talk to you. 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.000 So Yvette calls the detective and they asked her to 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.800 come to the precinct. And this woman was not named Vette. 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.480 This woman was named cab Matthy Watkins, who had never 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:03.640 been arrested before and had a daughter. And she comes 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:05.440 to the precinct and they sit her in her room 0:09:05.480 --> 0:09:09.560 and they put the dispatcher down the hallway and Donnelly 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.240 is standing over her and say call the dispatcher and 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:14.800 order that cab because he wanted to know if that 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:17.760 voice was the same, and the dispatcher's down the hall 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:20.760 in the precinct and she says, yeah, that's the voice. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:23.760 And then Miriam Taveris, who had never before said a 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.200 woman was involved, says, okay, yeah, she was there snapping 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:29.360 her fingers mean to the guys the five night, hurry 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:31.880 up and finish the murder. And so because of that, 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.840 and only because of that, she was arrested with all 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:39.560 of these other guys for both murders. Six people eric 0:09:39.640 --> 0:09:41.839 had never even met her, No one met her before, 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:45.000 no one knew anything about her. She literally did not 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:45.800 even call the. 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:48.880 Cab service that night, they later found, but the detective 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:50.640 never even checked that, mind you. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.520 A seventh person was arrested, Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, who 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:56.040 had nothing to do with anything. 0:09:56.600 --> 0:09:59.679 The police obtained a statement from Denise Raymond's coworker, Kim 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.720 Alley Xander, in which she allegedly wrote an elevator with 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:07.160 Denise Raymond and her ex Charles McKinnon on January seventeenth. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.640 The pair allegedly argued before he followed her out of 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:16.360 the building, and this theory was that McKinnon contacted this 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:19.640 group of young men to whom he had zero ties, 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.800 by the way, and set her up. They took him 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:26.440 to trial in nineteen ninety eight, despite surveillance footage that 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:30.360 showed McKinnon was not present at all for this elevator argument. 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:32.520 Fortunately he was acquitted. 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:36.600 Charles McKinnon was acquitted and he died a few years 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.000 later from heart issues. That I spoke to his wife, 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.640 think that being wrongfully accused killed him and may. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.560 He rest in peace. And meanwhile, back in nineteen ninety five, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:49.599 Eric had just welcomed his daughter into the world, completely 0:10:49.640 --> 0:10:53.000 unaware of the murders, let alone that he was a suspect. 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.680 You know, I was focused on bringing my daughter home 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.520 from the hospital and being a father that I didn't 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.920 speak to anybody in the neighborhood for that period of time. 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:07.280 I was just going to the hospital, being there we 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.400 bought the baby home. That I didn't even know nothing 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.720 about that crime. But lo and behold, I found out 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:16.960 very quickly with being arrested for that crime. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:20.920 Wow, here you are, eighteen years old, being wrongfully accused 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.880 of a murderer or two with this other group of people. 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.920 Some of them do each other, some of them didn't 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.520 it's such a just cluster fuck. 0:11:29.000 --> 0:11:31.880 I didn't really believe it was happening because at first 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.439 they told me I was being arrested for robbery or 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.439 burglary or something of that nature, and I know I 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:41.480 didn't do that. But then later on during interrogation, they 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:43.240 began to accuse me of murder. 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:48.640 It is heartbreaking to hear his interrogation with an assistant prosecutor. 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:54.360 He's brought in and he's sitting bent at the waist, trembling, crying, 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.680 saying in his sweet voice, I don't know what you're 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.880 talking about. I have no idea. I didn't do anything. 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:03.640 I just want to go home and see my daughter. 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:07.160 And they are just at him, at him, and he's like, 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:08.760 I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.080 what you're talking about. And he was telling the truth. 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:14.160 And that's when I saw my life falling apart right 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.440 before me. I saw me never going home to my daughter, 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:20.400 who we just brought home from the hospital. I had 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:25.920 five other co defendants who also were innocent and didn't 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.280 actually know each other. However, before we went to trial, 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.760 one of the cases, which was Denise Raymond, was dismissed 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.480 against me. And my other code defended Kathy Watkins. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.319 The Gomez statement only implicated Israel Vaskaz, Devin Ayers, Michael Cosmi, 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:45.479 and Carlos Perez in the Nise Raymond murder, while Tavares 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:50.320 alone implicated Eric Listen in the bath Dap murder, followed 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.360 by Kathy Watkins at a subsequent statement. So Eric and 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.720 Kathy were split away from the group and the group 0:12:56.800 --> 0:12:59.160 was tried first in May nineteen ninety seven. 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:03.040 By the time the trial came around, Kathy Gomes tried 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:06.840 to kill herself because she didn't want to testify because 0:13:06.920 --> 0:13:09.920 we now know that Detective Donnelly wrote a statement made 0:13:09.960 --> 0:13:13.160 her say what she said. She didn't even read English. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:15.640 She signed the statement without reading it, and she was 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.760 a main witness at Denise Raymond's trial, and she tried 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:20.080 to kill herself. 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.880 But that was all unknown to their jury, along with 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:28.720 Miriam Tavares's obstruct advantage point and any existing physical evidence. 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:32.640 The prosecutor took the bullets and other evidence related to 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.120 the case home and said that his car was broken 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:38.280 into and it was stolen, and we weren't able to 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:41.360 use any of that to prove my innocence. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:45.040 And neither were the other four who received fifty years each. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.319 Before Eric and Kathy Watkins went to trial in September 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:50.679 nineteen ninety seven. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.719 Miriam Tavares was the main witness, and it was her testimony, 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:58.000 and only her testimony, that's it that convicted Eric and 0:13:58.080 --> 0:13:58.840 Kathy Watkins. 0:13:59.120 --> 0:13:59.640 That's it. 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:02.400 When I went and I looked into Eric's case, I 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.080 literally got into the apartment where she said she saw 0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:06.959 this from. She no longer lived there, but the people 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.840 who live there allowed me to come in, and I 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.840 went to the bathroom window and I took video from 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.720 where she said she saw it from. 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:16.160 Literally impossible first of all, to see what she said 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:20.760 she saw. But more astonishing than that, Mike Donnelly, the detective, 0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:24.040 never even did that. He never did it. 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.720 He never went to see if she could see what 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:27.440 she said she saw. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.920 But Eric's attorney did, and he argued to have the 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.160 jury see the crime scene as well as Miriam Tavares's 0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:37.120 obstruct advantage point for themselves, but. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:40.600 The judge denied it, state in that it was unnecessary 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.240 after the successful argument of the prosecutor that we put 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.520 up pictures and videos depicted in the crime scene, so 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.600 why would the jury need to go to here, and 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:52.280 basically they tuned into Miriam Savers. 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.360 So it was Eric and Kathy Watkins that were tried 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.480 together for the cab driver murder alone, even though they 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:00.560 had never met. They had never said a word to 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.360 each other, that Kathy Watkins never called the cab, that 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.040 Eric had no idea what anybody was talking about, and 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.240 they were convicted and sentenced to twenty five to life. 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:12.400 After seeing my co defendants get convicted first and receive 0:15:12.480 --> 0:15:16.160 fifty years each, I pretty much knew that I wasn't 0:15:16.160 --> 0:15:18.840 going to come out of this and from that day 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.320 on I lived a nightmare with every week an hour. 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:37.280 This episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:41.520 Now every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds of 0:15:41.600 --> 0:15:45.400 trauma and PTSD. Your support empowers us to provide life 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.960 changing treatments like the Stelli Ganglion Block SGB, which inhibits 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:53.440 nerve impulses and helps to restore hope, reclaim lives, and 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:57.920 save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that those 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.360 wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal and 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.840 reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to erase 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:10.160 PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit ERASEPTSD now dot org. 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:14.960 That's erase PTSD now dot org for more information and 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:16.040 ways to get involved. 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:23.840 A lot of people say, how did you do it? 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.040 I die on my feet, not on my knees. A 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.000 lot of people say, oh, I couldn't do that. 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:31.240 Yes you can. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:34.680 If you are confronted with a situation like that, anyone 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:37.760 is gonna fight. It's just that how much fight you 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:43.840 got in you and how much will and tenacity dig deep, 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:48.400 dig inside yourself, find that strength. Never give up with 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:53.360 anything that you are confronted with your life, because every 0:16:53.440 --> 0:16:57.160 problem has an expiration date. And when I'm in those 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.200 low points in my life that gets me by, I 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.680 don't have they sayers inside of me telling me I 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.159 can't do it right. And I practiced that with my 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.760 daughters on their room doors. I wrote in big letters 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.680 girls can do anything, so that if they ever confronted 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:18.600 with any adversity in life, that they able to dig 0:17:18.640 --> 0:17:22.560 deep inside themselves when there's no one else around, when 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:25.119 you cry out for help and no one listens, you 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.520 can count on yourself because the answer is in yourself 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:33.320 and that's what gives you the positivity to attract positivity. 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.119 And part of the power of positivity and action brought 0:17:36.200 --> 0:17:38.400 Eric in touch with a number of other innocent men, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.879 including several former guests on this very show, Johnny Kincapier 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:46.440 and JJ Velasquez, who's another connection to Dan. Even though 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.600 Eric didn't know Dan at the time, Dan and JJ 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.480 had been in contact since two thousand and two. But 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:55.280 back at Sing Sing, the three of them were participating 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.639 in the RTA program, short for Rehabilitation through the Arts, 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:00.720 as well as taking college courses together. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:04.280 We were all studying far our degrees and behavior science. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.960 Johnny was going for his masters. I think at the 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.000 time I knew Johnny through the RTA program at first, 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:16.639 and just being around these people and feelingate their energy, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:19.240 you can tell that they're not there for something they 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.680 did that's obvious. They don't have murder written on their face, 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.080 they don't have that written in the moral fabric. And 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.720 then when you see people going to the law library 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.679 a lot, and that's really their mainstay when they have 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:35.679 free time, those are the people you need to really 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:38.919 pay attention to because they're fighting. They're not going to 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.359 the yard where it's leisurely easy. They're in the law library. 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.240 So for those seventeen years and nine months, you know, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:49.199 I convinced myself that one day I would get out 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.080 of them. And I worked tiresly on my case without 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.880 any professional help. Because I was poor. I didn't have 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:57.760 the funds to obtain a high profile attorney that can 0:18:57.840 --> 0:19:00.760 give me the best legal advice and work that he could, 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:05.040 and so I wrote to numerous attorneys, different outreach programs. 0:19:05.119 --> 0:19:07.320 We would just write letters to lawyers and projects. In 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.639 the Innocence Project. My name is Eric, Listen, I'm innocent, 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.280 and it would all go into the void. Meanwhile, he's 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:14.880 learning the language that was used to lock him up. 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:17.760 He's going to the law library fining freedom of information 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:21.840 requests to do whatever he can from inside his cement box. 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:25.639 Let's give some props to sister Joanna Chan, who I 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.280 think knew you from the theater program in Sing Sing right, 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:32.200 and then went and advocated for you to get legal representation. 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.840 As you know, Peter was a corporate attorney. He didn't 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:38.760 know anything about criminal law. And his assistant shaw Man, 0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.520 who's become like a sister to me. All of the 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:44.280 three way calls that Charmain would do for me, and 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.479 the research of looking on Facebook and different social media 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:52.720 platforms for different individuals that has some idea might be involved. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.720 And Peter Cross was there to guide Eric through what 0:19:55.840 --> 0:19:56.480 happened next. 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.000 In early twenty twelve, he finally got a a freedom 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:04.640 of information request and it was the cell phone of Bathtiop, 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.640 the cab driver who was killed, had a cell phone 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:10.399 nineteen ninety five. Not a lot of people at cell phones, 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:13.480 and there was all of these phone calls made right 0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:17.960 after his death. And Eric, from his prison cell figures 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.960 out that the phone numbers are. 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.919 Traced back to a really really bad gang in the 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.760 South Bronx called Sex Money Murder. And what he does 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.400 is he writes yet another letter to the US Attorney's 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.760 office that took down Sex Money Murder. He found out 0:20:31.800 --> 0:20:34.119 the prosecutor who took down that bad gang, her name 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.240 was Helen Campwell, she didn't even work in the office anymore. 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:41.520 And the secretary who got the mail remembered that there 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:44.240 was an investigator at the US Attorney's Office by the 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:48.159 name of John O'Malley who said, if there's any letters 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.240 that come in about murders, put them on my desk 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:53.160 because he knew everything about murders in New York City. 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.120 He was a gang investigator. And he puts the letter 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.280 on the desk and John O'Malley starts to read this 0:20:58.359 --> 0:21:02.840 letter and he says, oh shit, a cab driver soundview 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.320 section of the Bronx nineteen ninety five. 0:21:06.040 --> 0:21:07.080 I knew who did that. 0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:10.080 It was two guys from the gang he took down 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:14.080 called sex money murder. In fact, he arrested them and 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.560 they played guilty to this crime in federal court nine 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:18.360 years earlier. 0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:32.199 I was told to go down to the Administration building. 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:34.560 So I questioned on why I was going down there 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.359 if the officers wouldn't give me any information. When I 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:41.080 did finally reach that room, John O'Malley, this guy looked 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.040 like a gumshoe detective, and I seen that he had 0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:47.520 a big picture of me, and I thought at that 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.160 time that I was being charge with some other crime now. 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.159 But then when he raised the letter and he asked 0:21:53.160 --> 0:21:55.399 it I write that letter, you know, a little bit 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.639 of relief came over me. He told me, I know 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.560 the two guys who did this crime. Ask me did 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.080 I have co defendans? And I told him yes, and 0:22:03.119 --> 0:22:05.200 he asked me how many and when I explained to 0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:08.400 him FI that the co defendants, he was dumbfounded. 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:09.480 He thought Eric was. 0:22:09.480 --> 0:22:10.359 The only one in there. 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:14.640 In twenty twelve, O'Malley was still operating under the impression 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:16.720 he had been left with when he inquired with the 0:22:16.800 --> 0:22:19.639 NAYPD about this murder. In two thousand and three, after 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.280 two members of Sex Money Murder, Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez, 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:24.720