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Speaker 1: In January nineteen ninety five, two murders occurred in the Bronx.

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Speaker 1: One was a Federal Express executive named Denise Raymond, the

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Speaker 1: other a livery cab driver named Bath d'ap. Eventually, an

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Speaker 1: alleged witness and her teenage translator claimed to have information

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Speaker 1: that one had seen a group of assault from her window

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Speaker 1: and that they both overheard a group of young men

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Speaker 1: talking about robbing a cab and a girl. The police

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Speaker 1: also believed Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend was involved, as well

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Speaker 1: as someone who had allegedly called the car service to

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Speaker 1: set up the cab driver. In total, seven people were

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Speaker 1: charged with one or both of the murders, including Eric Listen,

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Speaker 1: who ascends to twenty five to life. This is wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen to this

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Speaker 1: and all the Lava for Good podcast one week early

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Speaker 1: and ad free by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrong for Conviction. This

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Speaker 1: is the story I've been waiting a long time to tell.

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Speaker 1: It's almost too much. It's got a gang called Sex

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Speaker 1: Money Murder, a Bronx drug gang. It's got an ear

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Speaker 1: witness who somehow or other was lucky enough to be

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Speaker 1: a witnessed to two different murders that happened about thirty

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Speaker 1: six hours apart, separate crimes, who herself was kind of

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Speaker 1: a let's just say, a complicated character. It's got six

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted people, one of whom's here with us today,

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Speaker 1: and that's just the beginning. So without further ado, I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited to have with us today the man who

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Speaker 1: lived through this. Eric listen, thanks for being there, Thank you, Jason,

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Speaker 1: and with Eric here today is a guy I can

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Speaker 1: only describe as a hero of the indist movement who's

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Speaker 1: reporting and investigative journalism has resulted in freeing quite a

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Speaker 1: number of wrong for convicted men that I'm so happy,

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Speaker 1: Dan Slepian, that you're here on the show to help

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Speaker 1: tell the story that you actually played a key role in.

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Speaker 1: So we'll get to that later.

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Speaker 2: Brother. You're like a kindred spirit, and for you to

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Speaker 2: say that about me is kind of silly, to be

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Speaker 2: honest with you, because you're like the north star of

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Speaker 2: everybody in this movement and a mentor figure. Because I'm younger.

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Speaker 1: Than so okay, so Eric, before this insane Ordeal befell you.

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Speaker 1: What was your life like growing up?

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Speaker 3: Well, my family were very close. I didn't have my

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Speaker 3: father too much in my life. He lived in Colorado

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Speaker 3: with his new wife and my brother and my sister,

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Speaker 3: so I was raised by my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather,

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Speaker 3: and all of my uncles, which was six in total.

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Speaker 3: My mother was the only daughter, however, actually passed away

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Speaker 3: and I was left to the care of my grandmother,

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Speaker 3: who couldn't handle me. Because I was twelve years old,

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Speaker 3: I thought I knew everything, so I mainly hung out

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Speaker 3: in the park with my friends. But we were into

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Speaker 3: gangs causing mischief. We were in causing any problems in

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Speaker 3: the community. I grew up in Classing Point Gardens, which

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Speaker 3: is next to Soundview Projects, and so mixing up with

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Speaker 3: a few of the guys from Soundview, Classing Point as

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Speaker 3: well as Saquan, we all just became like one close

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Speaker 3: knit community and there was a lot of support from

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Speaker 3: everyone because if you're seeing anyone in the street doing

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Speaker 3: anything wrong before you reach home, someone knew about it

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Speaker 3: from your family. But mainly I stood to myself. I

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Speaker 3: was like a really introvert after my mother's death, and

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Speaker 3: I supported myself with cutting grass in the neighborhood. I

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Speaker 3: did your front yard for five, your backyard for five,

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Speaker 3: and your hedges for three.

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Speaker 1: Soon Eric was eighteen years old with a daughter on

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Speaker 1: the way.

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Speaker 3: I was going to every doctor's appointment, every sonogram, being

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Speaker 3: there when she was born, just waiting to be a father,

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Speaker 3: waiting for this new experience, and just suddenly one day,

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Speaker 3: one morning, and just all crashed.

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Speaker 1: Down on me, and the murder itself. The first crime

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Speaker 1: was Denise Raymond, and she was a thirty eight year

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Speaker 1: old woman. We're talking a cold night on January seventeenth

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Speaker 1: of nineteen ninety five. She was a FedEx executive, which

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Speaker 1: probably added a little pressure to the police investigation, and

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Speaker 1: we know how that goes. When they feel pressured, they

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Speaker 1: cut some corners too often. And she was found the

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Speaker 1: following morning, January eighteenth, bound, gagged and blindfolded in her

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Speaker 1: Bronx apartment. That she had been shot twice in the head.

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Speaker 1: So this was even in the high crime you know

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Speaker 1: time that this was really a horrible crime. And then

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Speaker 1: four thirty am on January nineteenth, so this is less

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Speaker 1: than twenty four hours after miss Raymond had been found

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Speaker 1: forty three year old bath Theopp. He was a driver

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Speaker 1: for the new Harlem car service and he was found

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Speaker 1: fatally shot on a Bronx street and what police said

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Speaker 1: appeared to be a robbery. So now the pressure ramps

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Speaker 1: up even more because this seems like almost like a spree, right.

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Speaker 1: But they were only linked by geography, right, because other

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Speaker 1: than that, there's nothing to connect them at all.

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Speaker 2: Other than the detectives were a team. His cases were

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Speaker 2: not connected at all. Bath Dyop's body was found. It

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Speaker 2: was a rookie detective from the forty third Precinct by

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Speaker 2: the name of Mike Donnelly, who has assigned that case.

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Speaker 2: It was only his second murder investigation. His mentor was

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Speaker 2: on the verge of retirement on his last Thomiside case,

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Speaker 2: a guy named Thomas Iello, a detective and a few

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Speaker 2: hours before the bath Dopp murder, as you said, is

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Speaker 2: when they found Denise Raymond's body, and Thomas Iyello, Mike

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Speaker 2: Donnelly's mentor, was the lead detective on the Denise Raymond

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Speaker 2: murder case. They weren't connected at all other than the

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Speaker 2: fact that those two detectives knew each other and were

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Speaker 2: a team.

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Speaker 1: And this team was having trouble producing any promising leads.

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Speaker 1: They'd been looking at Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, Charles McKinnon,

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Speaker 1: but they'd hit a wall until two weeks later, when

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Speaker 1: Detective Donnelly picked up a teenager named Hanley Gomez on

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Speaker 1: an unrelated charge.

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Speaker 3: When they got a young kid named Hanley Gomez in

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Speaker 3: the precinct on another charge, they questioned him about the

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Speaker 3: taxi driver and the FedEx Exectly, he told them that

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Speaker 3: he knew someone that might have information about it because

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Speaker 3: she lived directly across the street from where the taxi

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Speaker 3: murder took place.

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Speaker 2: Goma said, there's a woman, Miriam Taveres, who's a homeless

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Speaker 2: prostitute that stays on my couch. So Donnelly goes over

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Speaker 2: to the house and Goma's sister, Kathy Gmez, a sixteen

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Speaker 2: year old girl, was asked by the detective to be

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Speaker 2: a translator because Miriam Tavera is the main witness, only

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Speaker 2: spoke Spanish and Donnelly only spoke English. Miriam Taveries said

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Speaker 2: she saw heard what five people, six people did and

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Speaker 2: said in a place where she couldn't possibly see in

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Speaker 2: what she said she saw and picks out five young

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Speaker 2: men from the neighborhood, most of whom don't really even

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Speaker 2: know each other, saying that they did it Detective Donnelly

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Speaker 2: by the time he left the apartment that sixteen year

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Speaker 2: old sister Kathy Gomez also all of a sudden became

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Speaker 2: a witness, saying she overheard what these guys were saying.

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Speaker 1: The Gomez statement said that on January seventeenth, a group

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Speaker 1: of young men was overheard talking about quote, robbing a

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Speaker 1: taxi and a girl end quote. The group that she

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Speaker 1: was talking about was seventeen year old Israel Basquez, eighteen

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Speaker 1: year old Devin Ayers, nineteen year old Michael Cosme, and

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Speaker 1: twenty five year old Carlos Perez. In addition, Miriam Tavares

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Speaker 1: also allegedly overheard them discussing the Denise Raymond murder, and

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Speaker 1: then she claimed that on January nineteenth, she heard gunshots,

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Speaker 1: looked out the window and saw the group fleeing back

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Speaker 1: the ops car along with eighteen year old Derek Clisten.

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Speaker 2: Meanwhile, we have the crime scene tape, we know where

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Speaker 2: the cab driver came to rest after the shooting. That

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Speaker 2: went to the crime scene. She could not have possibly

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Speaker 2: seen what she said she saw. But there were five

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Speaker 2: men arrested at first for the cab driver murder and

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Speaker 2: the Denise Raymer murder. But the cops weren't done because

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Speaker 2: Detective Donnelly had this theory from the night of the

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Speaker 2: crime that whoever called the cab that night must be involved.

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Speaker 2: So he went to the cab dispatcher and she said,

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Speaker 2: I think it's a woman named r Vett who calls

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Speaker 2: all the time, and so Donnelly says, if a vet calls,

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Speaker 2: tell her I want to talk to her. So a

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Speaker 2: couple weeks later, this woman calls her a cab and

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Speaker 2: the dispatcher is like, sounds like a vet, And the

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Speaker 2: dispatcher says to Yvette, the cops want to talk to you.

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Speaker 2: So Yvette calls the detective and they asked her to

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Speaker 2: come to the precinct. And this woman was not named Vette.

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Speaker 2: This woman was named cab Matthy Watkins, who had never

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Speaker 2: been arrested before and had a daughter. And she comes

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Speaker 2: to the precinct and they sit her in her room

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Speaker 2: and they put the dispatcher down the hallway and Donnelly

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Speaker 2: is standing over her and say call the dispatcher and

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Speaker 2: order that cab because he wanted to know if that

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Speaker 2: voice was the same, and the dispatcher's down the hall

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Speaker 2: in the precinct and she says, yeah, that's the voice.

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Speaker 2: And then Miriam Taveris, who had never before said a

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Speaker 2: woman was involved, says, okay, yeah, she was there snapping

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Speaker 2: her fingers mean to the guys the five night, hurry

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Speaker 2: up and finish the murder. And so because of that,

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Speaker 2: and only because of that, she was arrested with all

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Speaker 2: of these other guys for both murders. Six people eric

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Speaker 2: had never even met her, No one met her before,

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Speaker 2: no one knew anything about her. She literally did not

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Speaker 2: even call the.

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Speaker 4: Cab service that night, they later found, but the detective

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Speaker 4: never even checked that, mind you.

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Speaker 2: A seventh person was arrested, Denise Raymond's ex boyfriend, who

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Speaker 2: had nothing to do with anything.

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Speaker 1: The police obtained a statement from Denise Raymond's coworker, Kim

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Speaker 1: Alley Xander, in which she allegedly wrote an elevator with

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Speaker 1: Denise Raymond and her ex Charles McKinnon on January seventeenth.

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Speaker 1: The pair allegedly argued before he followed her out of

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Speaker 1: the building, and this theory was that McKinnon contacted this

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Speaker 1: group of young men to whom he had zero ties,

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Speaker 1: by the way, and set her up. They took him

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Speaker 1: to trial in nineteen ninety eight, despite surveillance footage that

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Speaker 1: showed McKinnon was not present at all for this elevator argument.

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Speaker 1: Fortunately he was acquitted.

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Speaker 2: Charles McKinnon was acquitted and he died a few years

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Speaker 2: later from heart issues. That I spoke to his wife,

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Speaker 2: think that being wrongfully accused killed him and may.

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Speaker 1: He rest in peace. And meanwhile, back in nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 1: Eric had just welcomed his daughter into the world, completely

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Speaker 1: unaware of the murders, let alone that he was a suspect.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was focused on bringing my daughter home

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Speaker 3: from the hospital and being a father that I didn't

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Speaker 3: speak to anybody in the neighborhood for that period of time.

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Speaker 3: I was just going to the hospital, being there we

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Speaker 3: bought the baby home. That I didn't even know nothing

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Speaker 3: about that crime. But lo and behold, I found out

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Speaker 3: very quickly with being arrested for that crime.

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Speaker 1: Wow, here you are, eighteen years old, being wrongfully accused

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Speaker 1: of a murderer or two with this other group of people.

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Speaker 1: Some of them do each other, some of them didn't

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Speaker 1: it's such a just cluster fuck.

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Speaker 3: I didn't really believe it was happening because at first

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Speaker 3: they told me I was being arrested for robbery or

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Speaker 3: burglary or something of that nature, and I know I

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Speaker 3: didn't do that. But then later on during interrogation, they

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Speaker 3: began to accuse me of murder.

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Speaker 2: It is heartbreaking to hear his interrogation with an assistant prosecutor.

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Speaker 2: He's brought in and he's sitting bent at the waist, trembling, crying,

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Speaker 2: saying in his sweet voice, I don't know what you're

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Speaker 2: talking about. I have no idea. I didn't do anything.

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Speaker 2: I just want to go home and see my daughter.

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Speaker 2: And they are just at him, at him, and he's like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what you're talking about. And he was telling the truth.

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Speaker 3: And that's when I saw my life falling apart right

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Speaker 3: before me. I saw me never going home to my daughter,

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Speaker 3: who we just brought home from the hospital. I had

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Speaker 3: five other co defendants who also were innocent and didn't

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Speaker 3: actually know each other. However, before we went to trial,

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Speaker 3: one of the cases, which was Denise Raymond, was dismissed

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Speaker 3: against me. And my other code defended Kathy Watkins.

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Speaker 1: The Gomez statement only implicated Israel Vaskaz, Devin Ayers, Michael Cosmi,

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Speaker 1: and Carlos Perez in the Nise Raymond murder, while Tavares

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Speaker 1: alone implicated Eric Listen in the bath Dap murder, followed

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Speaker 1: by Kathy Watkins at a subsequent statement. So Eric and

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Speaker 1: Kathy were split away from the group and the group

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Speaker 1: was tried first in May nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: By the time the trial came around, Kathy Gomes tried

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Speaker 2: to kill herself because she didn't want to testify because

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Speaker 2: we now know that Detective Donnelly wrote a statement made

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Speaker 2: her say what she said. She didn't even read English.

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Speaker 2: She signed the statement without reading it, and she was

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Speaker 2: a main witness at Denise Raymond's trial, and she tried

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Speaker 2: to kill herself.

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Speaker 1: But that was all unknown to their jury, along with

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Speaker 1: Miriam Tavares's obstruct advantage point and any existing physical evidence.

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Speaker 3: The prosecutor took the bullets and other evidence related to

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Speaker 3: the case home and said that his car was broken

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Speaker 3: into and it was stolen, and we weren't able to

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Speaker 3: use any of that to prove my innocence.

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Speaker 1: And neither were the other four who received fifty years each.

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Speaker 1: Before Eric and Kathy Watkins went to trial in September

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven.

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Speaker 2: Miriam Tavares was the main witness, and it was her testimony,

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Speaker 2: and only her testimony, that's it that convicted Eric and

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Speaker 2: Kathy Watkins.

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Speaker 1: That's it.

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Speaker 2: When I went and I looked into Eric's case, I

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Speaker 2: literally got into the apartment where she said she saw

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Speaker 2: this from. She no longer lived there, but the people

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Speaker 2: who live there allowed me to come in, and I

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Speaker 2: went to the bathroom window and I took video from

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Speaker 2: where she said she saw it from.

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Speaker 4: Literally impossible first of all, to see what she said

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Speaker 4: she saw. But more astonishing than that, Mike Donnelly, the detective,

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Speaker 4: never even did that. He never did it.

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Speaker 2: He never went to see if she could see what

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Speaker 2: she said she saw.

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Speaker 1: But Eric's attorney did, and he argued to have the

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Speaker 1: jury see the crime scene as well as Miriam Tavares's

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Speaker 1: obstruct advantage point for themselves, but.

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Speaker 3: The judge denied it, state in that it was unnecessary

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Speaker 3: after the successful argument of the prosecutor that we put

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Speaker 3: up pictures and videos depicted in the crime scene, so

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Speaker 3: why would the jury need to go to here, and

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Speaker 3: basically they tuned into Miriam Savers.

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Speaker 4: So it was Eric and Kathy Watkins that were tried

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Speaker 4: together for the cab driver murder alone, even though they

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Speaker 4: had never met. They had never said a word to

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Speaker 4: each other, that Kathy Watkins never called the cab, that

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Speaker 4: Eric had no idea what anybody was talking about, and

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Speaker 4: they were convicted and sentenced to twenty five to life.

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Speaker 3: After seeing my co defendants get convicted first and receive

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Speaker 3: fifty years each, I pretty much knew that I wasn't

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Speaker 3: going to come out of this and from that day

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Speaker 3: on I lived a nightmare with every week an hour.

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Speaker 1: This episode of Wrongful Conviction is proudly sponsored by Erase PTSD.

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Speaker 1: Now every day, countless individuals face the invisible wounds of

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Speaker 1: save lives after incarceration. Together, we can ensure that those

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted receive the care they need to heal and

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Speaker 1: reintegrate into society. Join us in this mission to erase

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Speaker 1: PTSD and uplift our communities. Visit ERASEPTSD now dot org.

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Speaker 1: That's erase PTSD now dot org for more information and

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Speaker 1: ways to get involved.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people say, how did you do it?

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Speaker 3: I die on my feet, not on my knees. A

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Speaker 3: lot of people say, oh, I couldn't do that.

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Speaker 2: Yes you can.

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Speaker 3: If you are confronted with a situation like that, anyone

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Speaker 3: is gonna fight. It's just that how much fight you

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Speaker 3: got in you and how much will and tenacity dig deep,

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Speaker 3: dig inside yourself, find that strength. Never give up with

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Speaker 3: anything that you are confronted with your life, because every

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Speaker 3: problem has an expiration date. And when I'm in those

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Speaker 3: low points in my life that gets me by, I

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Speaker 3: don't have they sayers inside of me telling me I

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Speaker 3: can't do it right. And I practiced that with my

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Speaker 3: daughters on their room doors. I wrote in big letters

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Speaker 3: girls can do anything, so that if they ever confronted

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Speaker 3: with any adversity in life, that they able to dig

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Speaker 3: deep inside themselves when there's no one else around, when

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Speaker 3: you cry out for help and no one listens, you

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Speaker 3: can count on yourself because the answer is in yourself

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Speaker 3: and that's what gives you the positivity to attract positivity.

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Speaker 1: And part of the power of positivity and action brought

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Speaker 1: Eric in touch with a number of other innocent men,

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Speaker 1: including several former guests on this very show, Johnny Kincapier

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Speaker 1: and JJ Velasquez, who's another connection to Dan. Even though

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Speaker 1: Eric didn't know Dan at the time, Dan and JJ

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Speaker 1: had been in contact since two thousand and two. But

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Speaker 1: back at Sing Sing, the three of them were participating

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Speaker 1: in the RTA program, short for Rehabilitation through the Arts,

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Speaker 1: as well as taking college courses together.

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Speaker 3: We were all studying far our degrees and behavior science.

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Speaker 3: Johnny was going for his masters. I think at the

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Speaker 3: time I knew Johnny through the RTA program at first,

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Speaker 3: and just being around these people and feelingate their energy,

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Speaker 3: you can tell that they're not there for something they

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Speaker 3: did that's obvious. They don't have murder written on their face,

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Speaker 3: they don't have that written in the moral fabric. And

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Speaker 3: then when you see people going to the law library

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Speaker 3: a lot, and that's really their mainstay when they have

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Speaker 3: free time, those are the people you need to really

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Speaker 3: pay attention to because they're fighting. They're not going to

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Speaker 3: the yard where it's leisurely easy. They're in the law library.

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Speaker 3: So for those seventeen years and nine months, you know,

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Speaker 3: I convinced myself that one day I would get out

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Speaker 3: of them. And I worked tiresly on my case without

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Speaker 3: any professional help. Because I was poor. I didn't have

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Speaker 3: the funds to obtain a high profile attorney that can

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Speaker 3: give me the best legal advice and work that he could,

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Speaker 3: and so I wrote to numerous attorneys, different outreach programs.

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Speaker 2: We would just write letters to lawyers and projects. In

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Speaker 2: the Innocence Project. My name is Eric, Listen, I'm innocent,

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Speaker 2: and it would all go into the void. Meanwhile, he's

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Speaker 2: learning the language that was used to lock him up.

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Speaker 2: He's going to the law library fining freedom of information

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Speaker 2: requests to do whatever he can from inside his cement box.

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Speaker 1: Let's give some props to sister Joanna Chan, who I

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Speaker 1: think knew you from the theater program in Sing Sing right,

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Speaker 1: and then went and advocated for you to get legal representation.

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Speaker 3: As you know, Peter was a corporate attorney. He didn't

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Speaker 3: know anything about criminal law. And his assistant shaw Man,

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Speaker 3: who's become like a sister to me. All of the

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Speaker 3: three way calls that Charmain would do for me, and

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Speaker 3: the research of looking on Facebook and different social media

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Speaker 3: platforms for different individuals that has some idea might be involved.

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Speaker 1: And Peter Cross was there to guide Eric through what

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Speaker 1: happened next.

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Speaker 2: In early twenty twelve, he finally got a a freedom

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Speaker 2: of information request and it was the cell phone of Bathtiop,

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Speaker 2: the cab driver who was killed, had a cell phone

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five. Not a lot of people at cell phones,

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Speaker 2: and there was all of these phone calls made right

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Speaker 2: after his death. And Eric, from his prison cell figures

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Speaker 2: out that the phone numbers are.

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Speaker 4: Traced back to a really really bad gang in the

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Speaker 4: South Bronx called Sex Money Murder. And what he does

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Speaker 4: is he writes yet another letter to the US Attorney's

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Speaker 4: office that took down Sex Money Murder. He found out

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Speaker 4: the prosecutor who took down that bad gang, her name

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Speaker 4: was Helen Campwell, she didn't even work in the office anymore.

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Speaker 4: And the secretary who got the mail remembered that there

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Speaker 4: was an investigator at the US Attorney's Office by the

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Speaker 4: name of John O'Malley who said, if there's any letters

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Speaker 4: that come in about murders, put them on my desk

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Speaker 4: because he knew everything about murders in New York City.

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Speaker 2: He was a gang investigator. And he puts the letter

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Speaker 2: on the desk and John O'Malley starts to read this

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Speaker 2: letter and he says, oh shit, a cab driver soundview

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Speaker 2: section of the Bronx nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 1: I knew who did that.

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Speaker 4: It was two guys from the gang he took down

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Speaker 4: called sex money murder. In fact, he arrested them and

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Speaker 4: they played guilty to this crime in federal court nine

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Speaker 4: years earlier.

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Speaker 3: I was told to go down to the Administration building.

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Speaker 3: So I questioned on why I was going down there

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Speaker 3: if the officers wouldn't give me any information. When I

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Speaker 3: did finally reach that room, John O'Malley, this guy looked

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Speaker 3: like a gumshoe detective, and I seen that he had

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Speaker 3: a big picture of me, and I thought at that

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Speaker 3: time that I was being charge with some other crime now.

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Speaker 3: But then when he raised the letter and he asked

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Speaker 3: it I write that letter, you know, a little bit

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Speaker 3: of relief came over me. He told me, I know

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Speaker 3: the two guys who did this crime. Ask me did

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Speaker 3: I have co defendans? And I told him yes, and

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Speaker 3: he asked me how many and when I explained to

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Speaker 3: him FI that the co defendants, he was dumbfounded.

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Speaker 4: He thought Eric was.

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Speaker 2: The only one in there.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twelve, O'Malley was still operating under the impression

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Speaker 1: he had been left with when he inquired with the

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Speaker 1: NAYPD about this murder. In two thousand and three, after

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Speaker 1: two members of Sex Money Murder, Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez,

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Speaker 1: confessed to the shooting.

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Speaker 2: When John O'Malley went to the precinct to say, I

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Speaker 2: got these guys confessing to this crime, the NYPD told them,

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Speaker 2: we don't have any record of that crime. They didn't say, oh,

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Speaker 2: we have six people serving time in prison already for

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Speaker 2: fifteen years, and he's told that the murder didn't exist.

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Speaker 4: We don't have a record of that. So these guys,

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Speaker 4: Gilbert Vega and Joey Rodriguez, plead guilty in federal court

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Speaker 4: to shooting a gun and the commission of a robbery.

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Speaker 4: The guys say, we shot the cab driver. We think

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Speaker 4: he died, and the judge actually says, I hope nobody

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Speaker 4: got killed. The prosecutor is saying, I'm sorry, you're honored.

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Speaker 4: The NYPD is saying, we don't have the death here,

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Speaker 4: we don't have a murder, so the guys plead guilty.

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Speaker 4: No one knew that six people were in prison for

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Speaker 4: the same crime until Eric Glisten wrote that letter nine

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Speaker 4: years later. So now with the seven people that were

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Speaker 4: charged originally, plus the two who really did it, there

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Speaker 4: were nine people. Two of them are really did it,

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Speaker 4: seven didn't.

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Speaker 3: It didn't hit me until I contacted Chawmain when we

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Speaker 3: went out to the yard and she told me that

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Speaker 3: someone did call Peter and that Peter was excited and crying.

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Speaker 3: From that point I knew something was afoot in that

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Speaker 3: maybe I might have hope.

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Speaker 1: And one would think that when O'Malley brings this information

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Speaker 1: and the prosecutor of the US Attorney's Office to the

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Speaker 1: Bronx DA's office in June twenty twelve, that the prison

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Speaker 1: gates should have just flown right open, right.

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Speaker 2: But what happened The DA's office fought. Eric was sent

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Speaker 2: to Rikers, humanitarian nightmare when he's totally innocent calling me

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Speaker 2: from Vikers. There's no court date on the docket, so

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Speaker 2: I got WNBC. We did a local report in August

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Speaker 2: of twenty twelve. He was going to get out anyway,

435
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: but he didn't get out until October. And after he

436
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 2: got out.

437
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 4: To make it even worse, they didn't just say we're sorry,

438
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 4: mister Glisson and the five others. What they said was, Okay,

439
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 4: we're going to do a conditional release while we investigate.

440
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 4: You get out on an ankle monitor.

441
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking to myself, investigate what Miriam Tavares had

442
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: died in two thousand and two, and by this time

443
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: her translator, Kathy Gomez, had already recanted.

444
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,640
Speaker 2: Kathy Gomez did recant, and not only did she recan't

445
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: she said that the detective wrote the statement from her.

446
00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: She couldn't read it because she didn't read English. She

447
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 2: signed it under duress, and she didn't want to testify,

448
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: and it says in the court record she tried to

449
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: kill herself instead of testifying because the detective was making

450
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: her testify.

451
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 1: And so again, June of twenty twelve, that's the date

452
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: that he should have come home, but they strung it

453
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: out a little bit longer than there was Jako munder.

454
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 1: But tell us about your co defendants and getting them out,

455
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 1: because they didn't come out at the same time you did.

456
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,480
Speaker 3: Right about five or six months later, they were released.

457
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 3: I really don't want to take the credit for it,

458
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 3: because whatever was coming our way with positive vibes was

459
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 3: coming our way. It came, and everybody was able to

460
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: reach back home to their family. And that's what gives

461
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 3: me the best joy in this situation, because it started

462
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 3: out terrible. It was terrible for everyone. I wasn't the

463
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: only one that went through it, and today there's still

464
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,719
Speaker 3: innocent people who have been released and still going through it.

465
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 3: My life out here has been devoted to fighting against

466
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 3: injustice at every chance I can, and I think we'll

467
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 3: do a less less fighting in the future if more

468
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 3: accountability is attached to police and the district attorneys who

469
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 3: commit these crimes and atrocities against whole entire communities.

470
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right, Eric, prosecutors have absolute immunity, and it's

471
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 1: hard to think of any other professions that have that

472
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: same type of immunity against misconduct, even if it's flagrant,

473
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: even if it's deliberate. Let me just say, for the

474
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: way you handled yourself and the way you reached back.

475
00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean, that's why I always say, Eric, people like

476
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 1: Dan and myself were just in awe of people like

477
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 1: you who go through hell for no reason of your

478
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: own doing and come out carrying buckets of water for

479
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: people you left behind. And you're the perfect example of that.

480
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: And that's the type of person I think we all

481
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 1: aspire to be. So, Dan, Eric, this is my favorite

482
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 1: segment of the show, which is called Closing Arguments, and

483
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 1: it's basically me turning off my microphone, thanking both of you,

484
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: and then I'm going to leave your microphones on to

485
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: share any other thoughts and so as tradition has it, Dan,

486
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: you go first and then hand the microphone off to

487
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 1: Eric and he'll take us off into the sunset.

488
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: For me, you know, just like you Jason, probably, this

489
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 2: is not something that I found. This is something that

490
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: found me. This is something that chose me, this issue,

491
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: and I have no choice. This is what I do

492
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: when I have witnessed through proximity a system that is

493
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: so pathological and irrational, and I have a platform the

494
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: way you do to be able to do something, I

495
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: feel like I have no choice but to do it.

496
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: This journey for me began more than two decades ago

497
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 2: when I started with this case called the Palladium Case.

498
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,880
Speaker 2: The Palladium nightclub murder, and it eventually led me to Eric.

499
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: And when I had written my book, I looked up

500
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 2: the word palladium and it means silver, white metal, but

501
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: it also means safeguard, and it made me think, like

502
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,760
Speaker 2: that was very interesting. What is our true, genuine safeguard

503
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: against injustice? And the answer is educating people, because we're

504
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 2: all going to be jurors, and the system doesn't work

505
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 2: the way that everybody thinks it works. And when it

506
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: comes to judging our fellow citizens of anything much less

507
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: a capital crime, we should be asking far more questions

508
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 2: than are asked. We should be taking it way more

509
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 2: seriously than we do, certainly if we're a jur and

510
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: certainly if somebody's life on our hands. So to me,

511
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 2: this as a chapter in our history that one day

512
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 2: we will look back on this era as a very

513
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 2: dark chapter. You know, not in our lifetimes perhaps, but

514
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: one day people will look back on this chapter in

515
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: our history the way we look at slavery. This is

516
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 2: the next incarnation of the civil rights movement. It is

517
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,439
Speaker 2: that apparent of an injustice, It is that brazen that

518
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: people's lives are stolen from them, People are kidnapped by

519
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: the state without any sort of due process all too often.

520
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 2: And so what we need to do is keep talking

521
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 2: about it, keep talking to each other about it and

522
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 2: others and educating ourselves. And Jason, you keep doing what

523
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 2: you're doing. I'll keep doing what I'm doing. Eric will

524
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 2: keep doing what he's doing, and eventually, you know, we grow.

525
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: We're all soldiers in this war together. So the safeguard is.

526
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: US prisons in America is really a profit entity. Every

527
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 3: phone call you make, you have to pay. Every infraction

528
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 3: you do, you have to pay. They deducted from your

529
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: and made account. How to health does these prosecutors office

530
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: budget mimic the economy of small countries for them to

531
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 3: convict people cause more to feed than people. We have

532
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 3: over two million people in prison. And right now, as

533
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 3: I went back to Sing Sing, I saw that they

534
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 3: don't have any more vocational programs, which is very instrumental

535
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: and the biggest tool to help people reactlimate and come

536
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: back out and be successful with becoming gainfully employed. When

537
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 3: I was there, I got plumbing, electrician, carpentry, building maintenance,

538
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 3: small engine repair, small appliance repair, computer repair, and college.

539
00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 3: But now those programs has been removed from the prisons,

540
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 3: but the prosecutor's budgets got bigger, and that's the biggest

541
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 3: incentives to keep the prisons going, to keep the courts going,

542
00:29:55,000 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 3: and to keep those doors to the prison open the budgets.

543
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

544
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

545
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

546
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

547
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

548
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Kleiber.

549
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: The music in this production was supplied by three time

550
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

551
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

552
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

553
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

554
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number One.

555
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 2: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

556
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: in this show are accurate.

557
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 4: The views and opinions expressed by the individuals featured in

558
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 4: this show are their own and do not necessarily reflect

559
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: those of Lava for Good