WEBVTT - Fan Favorite: Knighthead Capital's Tom Wagner 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.240 I'm Matt Miller and I'm Hannah Elliott, and this is 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:05.319 hot pursuit. 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:12.720 All right. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.880 So we have both been excited to talk to Tom 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:19.360 Wagner of Nighthead Capital for a while now, so he's 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.040 agreed to come in and talk to us. Let's get 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.320 straight into it. I want to just first off say 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.880 we both listened to Barrio Holtz podcast and we loved it. 0:00:28.080 --> 0:00:30.440 And I always loved Barry's podcast, but Hannah, you're the 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:33.479 one who turned me on to the Tom Wagner episode 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:34.519 and it was great, right. 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:35.519 It was really good. 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:38.560 It was very far reaching, and I think it really 0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:41.680 set a good platform for where we can jump off of. 0:00:41.760 --> 0:00:44.839 So anyone listening, go listen to the Barry Barry podcast 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:47.160 if you want to hear about more of the financial 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:49.320 side and sports teams. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:50.279 And Tom Brady. 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:53.920 And those things, because we're going to focus on cars. 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:55.560 Really yeah, for these purposes. 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:59.640 So let's start with your company is Nighthead Capital, and 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:02.920 you may investments in a lot of different assets, but 0:01:03.520 --> 0:01:05.800 is it still like the distressed debt thing where you 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:06.880 kind of cut your teeth. 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.080 We do a lot of distressed investing, which I would 0:01:10.160 --> 0:01:15.679 characterize as maybe not distressed as in the purest form anymore. 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:19.440 We invest in businesses that are going through transitions. Sometimes 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:25.240 that's a turnaround, maybe operationally, maybe financially, maybe strategically, and 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.880 we try to find places to deploy capital where our 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.520 capital and our expertise can make a difference. And we've 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:38.639 found some interesting investments in the automobile slash mobility space 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.720 broadly defined, where we believe we can make a positive impact. 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:46.480 So Revology and Singer, we've talked about Hertz, I think 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:49.480 is a famous one. And then you have a WEC 0:01:49.640 --> 0:01:53.240 racing team, right Yoda, Yeah, are those the big automotive 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:54.360 investments that you have? 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:58.160 Those are certainly the biggest. There are a few other small, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.800 more venture type things that that we don't really talk about, 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:05.280 and by small I mean really tiny dollars, but where 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.320 we think that they are strategically important to us. And 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.200 then others that are adjacent to those businesses where we 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:14.240 think we can bolt them on and grow the existing 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:17.639 investments that we have. But those four that you mentioned 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.760 have a common thread. We have a view that mobility 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:27.440 is going to move with increasing speed towards electrification because 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.680 economically and for other reasons socially environmentally, it makes the 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.600 most sense. We were bitterly and hurts. But the thesis 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:38.480 that led us to make that decision to purchase evs 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:40.919 is intact, if you hold the cars for a long 0:02:41.040 --> 0:02:43.840 enough period of time, the rows are much better than ices, 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:46.799 and there are lots of other advantages there, but the 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.600 fundamental reality is that with most evs they don't inspire 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.880 the same kind of passion that certain other vehicles do. 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:58.320 And we felt that as people move towards electric vehicles 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:00.639 as the choice of transportation and to get from point 0:03:00.680 --> 0:03:03.880 A to point B, there would be a rise in 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.119 interest in vehicles and inspire great passion because people would 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:10.519 use the evs as kind of their mode of transportation, 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.320 low cost, you know, high tech. I mean Tesla's you know, 0:03:13.360 --> 0:03:16.600 are a great example of that. They're fantastic vehicles in 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.559 getting A to B very very safely, very very economically. 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:21.240 But on the weekend, maybe you want to go out 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:24.040 and have a different experience. Let's call it digital versus analog. 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.799 The analog experience for those who are car nuts, I think, 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:31.000 like the three of us and probably most of your listeners, 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.080 involves more than getting point A to point B. 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:34.600 It's the feel, it's the smell. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:38.400 It's the sound, the vibration, the skill required to move 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:43.240 some of these vehicles with some level of speed and safety. 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:46.720 And we thought that that would continue and that has happened. 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:51.240 There's been a massive rise. Now that rise, we had 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.680 a big blip post COVID, and the day of reckoning 0:03:54.760 --> 0:03:56.720 is now upon us when demand has kind of come 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.520 back to earth a little bit, and that's going to 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.720 cause a big shakeout. But I think the long term 0:04:00.800 --> 0:04:03.880 trend continues to rise upward and we're going to see 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:08.600 more and more interest in these really really high quality 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:15.160 you know, non ev you know, ice, restored vehicles, reimagined vehicles. 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.160 That whole sector is going to continue to explode. 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.520 Can you talk a little bit about Singer in particular 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:25.400 and what characteristics you saw in that company that made 0:04:25.440 --> 0:04:29.360 you know, we really have some potential specifically with Singer. Yeah. 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:34.040 I think when when we made the investment, we looked 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.599 at it and said, is this something that's difficult to replicate? 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:40.599 And I think as much as said, well, there's lots of. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.920 People that restore porsches, there's lots of people. 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:45.960 That restore cars, there's nobody that restores them like Singer 0:04:46.120 --> 0:04:48.800 and that's why if you look at every you know, 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:53.520 vehicle seller and reseller globally, if you look at all 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.279 of them, lump them all together, Singers number two and 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.680 average selling price behind only Bugatti. You know, once you 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.120 get b On say ten units twenty units a year, 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.840 and Singers you know, in the vicinity. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:06.240 Of two hundred vehicles per year. 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.000 And that's why the way, that's amazing because Bugatti makes 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:12.039 the car from scratch, like they do it all. 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.360 Singer takes another. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.039 Vehicle and then modifies it and they still get the 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:18.400 second highest asking price. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.200 Yeah, it's a it's a reimagination of an existing Porsche 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.440 nine sixty four, which is the vehicle upon which Singer 0:05:25.440 --> 0:05:28.560 performs its services in behalf of its customers. You know, 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:34.360 that reimagination process is everything other than what I'd characterize 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.960 as the body in white or the frame. So you 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:39.480 maintain the frame and you and you know, everything else 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.400 is kind of upgraded to the specifications of the customer. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:48.240 And the level of specialization or customization is mind boggling. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:51.080 There are no two Singers that are even close to 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:53.159 being the same. You know, you've got to be a 0:05:53.200 --> 0:05:56.560 real nerd to notice the differences. But I think if Hannah, 0:05:56.760 --> 0:05:58.400 you know, stepped into a car, she'd come, my, gush, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:05:58.920 look at this one. 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.760 This is but you know the rest nerd. You're not 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:03.680 a nerd, you car nerd, which we. 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:04.680 All know is very cool. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:05.920 They take it as a badge of honor. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:06.640 Yeah it should be. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:08.359 But you know you're like, oh, this is the hounds 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.839 Tooth seat that you know references this model right exactly. 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:14.360 And you know, if you look at the ductail spoilerund 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.040 the Singer DLS, which is sort of their ultra rare 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:20.960 incredible vehicles, you'd say, well, that you know, you know, 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.960 draws some comparisons to a seventy three RS. So there's 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.919 lots of you know, references to older Porsches that you know, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:31.320 bits and pieces that the customer says, well, I'd like 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.600 to have that in my car. And I think what 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:38.040 makes Singer special is that they do it with an 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.360 enormous amount of love for the brand Porsche, an enormous 0:06:42.400 --> 0:06:44.880 amount of respect for the customer and what they want. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.720 It's not just about slapping something together and saying here, 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.520 you know, let's make it work. Most of these companies 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:54.680 that perform this service don't actually make money. 0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.400 But you want to make money with that investment, right, Yeah, yeah, 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:56.680 we can. 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:58.520 The challenge is getting to scale. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.279 That's what I was going to ask about, because hasn't 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.360 Singer paused production of the nine sixty four and we're 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.760 sort of waiting for a nine thirty Turbo, and so 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:14.560 the DLS we're also waiting for. So are those pauses 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:16.120 changing how you're looking? 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.000 Wait, by the way, can I just brief pause. I 0:07:19.000 --> 0:07:21.480 don't know nearly as much about Singer as the two 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:21.720 of you. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:23.880 Yeah, So while we're. 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.160 Asking Tom questions, let's also explain to me, like what 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:27.000 is the DLS? 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:28.560 What it is that. 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.880 All the all the vehicles that Singer offers restoration services 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:34.960 on are based on the Porsche nine sixty four, which 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.480 was manufactured between eighty nine and ninety four, and each 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:42.000 of the vehicles references an older Porsche different variants, and 0:07:42.080 --> 0:07:46.080 so the classic was the car that was best known 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.840 for Singer, you know, and their customers. Those of were 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:50.760 coming towards the end of that run. I think in 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.000 the next eighteen months or so. 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:54.280 Those will all be produced. 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.880 The car that references to nine thirty Turbo, which is 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:02.560 currently characterized as the class Turbo that vehicle is in 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.640 production and deliveries have just started. So Hannah, I will 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.480 I will drive mine it good. 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:10.600 Good in July. Thanks. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:11.600 Are you going up the hill? 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.920 No, I don't have my FI license, so I won't 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:16.120 be allowed to drive up the hill, I know, but 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:17.760 I'll drive it on the circuit on the Monday. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:22.600 So that's like, that's the Steve McQueen, like the widow Maker, right, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:24.480 it's a widow it was. 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:26.080 This is only for those who don't know how to 0:08:26.160 --> 0:08:27.320 drive exactly exactly. 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:29.520 We gotta wait for that boost. This is a modern version. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.400 Boost comes on more quickly. It's it's a really very 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:37.560 special special car. Modern uh traction control and ABS and 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:39.520 some things that you can turn on or off that 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.360 allow the vehicle to be driven on wet roads by 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:46.120 an inexperienced driver with with relative safety. You know, within 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.600 the bounds of physics. We don't haven't yet invented a 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.360 car that can overcome the laws of physics. 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:51.320 But you know, then. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:55.080 There's the DLS Turbo, which is probably you know a 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:58.560 few months away from having its first driveable prototype in 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:01.840 the hands of journalists. And then you know, some other 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.280 cars in the queue that will be unveiled, you know, 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.000 in the next year or two. But the cars, the 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:08.520 four cars that I mentioned in including DLS which is 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:10.760 a full run that's been fully delivered and is out, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:14.480 those four cars will take us, you know, through the 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:16.439 next couple of years and beyond. I think the waiting 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:18.599 list is still in the vicinity of three three and 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:19.480 a half years. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.560 So so basically you're saying, look, the model. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:26.000 That you saw when you got involved with the company 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.360 remains the same. 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:30.640 Yeah, it's your goal, your intent. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.199 That's right. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.080 It's you know, it's to produce something that is beyond 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:39.440 you know, reproach as it relates to the quality. You know, 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:42.920 these have to be super reliable cars. So I have 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:47.160 a DLS that I drove from London to LamaH for 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:52.400 race weekend. That's a long drive sometimes at you know, 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:56.440 relatively rapid pace. Uh, and you know, it's a it's 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:58.440 a flawless experience. I mean, these are you know, these 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:00.480 are cars that you can sit in for six hours. 0:10:00.520 --> 0:10:03.200 And I see here on the internet DLS is for 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.000 Dynamics and Lightweighting Studies. 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:06.160 That's right, and it's the. 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.920 One I've seen these like, you know, on social media 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:11.680 with the ridiculously wide haunches. 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.480 Yes, and yeah, this one's even wider than one you're 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.480 lev I just. 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:17.440 Don't know enough about that. 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.000 And in the world of Plortia, there's so much to know, 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.680 and there's so many acronyms that I sometimes feel like 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:26.280 I can't keep up. 0:10:26.320 --> 0:10:27.680 You can go way down the rabbit hole. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:28.600 Yeah, I'm curious. 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:30.760 You know, you mentioned what's next for Singer, and I 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.880 don't expect you to actually say, but is there any 0:10:35.040 --> 0:10:38.840 room to go the way of a roof where Singer 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:44.360 would actually build their own cars versus re imagining. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.080 That's a great question. I think. 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.120 I think the brand would allow Singer to pursue just 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.920 about anything it wanted to do. I think, you know, 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:57.320 for the time being, the company is really very focused 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.640 on executing as best it can on the strategy of 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:04.920 reimagining Porsches on behalf of its customers. And that's a 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.480 great business. You know, are there's a long pipeline of 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:10.960 things that can be done. You know, vehicles that can 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.880 be reimagined that I think, you know, would be welcome by. 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.679 All Porsche enthusiasts. 0:11:15.679 --> 0:11:18.679 And look, I think the company knows that not everyone 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.560 wants a reimagined car. Some are the purists, They want 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:24.480 the seventy three r US exactly as it was. Others 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:26.240 may say, well, now I'd like to see a different 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:28.600 version of that car. What could be done if you 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.440 modernize it? And I think that's there's plenty to do 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.800 just with that. And our capital was intended to help 0:11:35.840 --> 0:11:39.400 the company get to a place where its production could 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:41.880 support the fixed costs and the business that are necessary 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.320 to create vehicles of this quality and with these kinds 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:45.920 of finishes. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:47.000 And I was wondering about that. 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:48.920 How did you get involved in what kind of investment 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:49.800 do you have in Singer? 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:53.040 Yeah, well, we were asked to refinance a facility that 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:57.600 they had in place from a lender, and you know, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.599 did that and provided some other work and capital facilities 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.560 and allowed them to just take the capital, you know, 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.240 in the most efficient form possible, while allowing Rob the 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:10.800 founder and Maz the CEO, to really direct the strategy 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:14.440 of the business. They've got a spectacular team of key 0:12:14.480 --> 0:12:20.400 executives there and some fantastic engineers that the craftsmen are unbelievable. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.959 I've been to a lot of you know, really high 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:29.120 end vehicle manufacturing facilities and singers. You know, when they 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.400 look at the finishes, you look at the body work, 0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.160 you look at the paint. It's as good as anybody 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.720 out there. Gorgeous and and by the way you're starting, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.080 you know, with a company as your reference. In Porsche, 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:41.079 I think does it as well or better than anyone 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.720 if you look at the tolerances and Porsche panels, you know, 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.800 as compared to some other very very hand automobile companies. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.840 You know, it's really hard to get into where Porsche 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:50.960 is pretty. 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:51.920 Good, build quality, very good. 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:54.720 But how did they know to ask you? I mean, like, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:56.720 were you already into Porsche? 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:57.120 No? 0:12:57.520 --> 0:12:59.280 I mean was I into Porsche's Yeah? I mean I 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.080 loved cars, but I grew up not being able to 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:05.200 afford any. My first car was a seventy eight Corolla 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:10.400 SR five hatchback that was nmission of course, yeah. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:11.080 Rusting away. 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.000 How much did you pay for that car? 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:13.280 Zero? 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.800 Because my dad said, if you can get it running, 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:18.280 you can drive it. And so I quickly learned how 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:21.760 to overhaul an engine and do breaks and a series 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:24.320 of other things in the driveway. Not the safest thing 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.280 in the world, you know, like in the old days 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.320 without jack stands like not smart. 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:30.240 But I bet you still love driving it. 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:31.560 Oh yeah, I don't have it anymore. 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:32.800 No, no, I mean all the time. 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.720 Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, Like it was awesome. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:38.640 You taught myself how to drive a stick on it 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:41.880 and yeah. But I think you know, when you have 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:44.440 those experiences, you fall in love with cars and you 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:46.760 imagine that it's not that it's not the slowest thing 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.000 on the road, and you imagine that it doesn't have 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.760 to rush through you know, the door panels. But you know, 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.240 as as you get older and into life, you know, 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.800 hopefully you can afford something better. And I the weird 0:13:56.840 --> 0:14:01.480 thing is, two weeks before the Porsche investment and became available, 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:05.920 our partner in the Hurts investments of firm Culture Taris, 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:07.559 and one of the founders there is a guy named 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.200 Greg O'Hara, and you know, we were just talking and 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:11.760 he's like, is there anything you always wanted but you 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.680 wouldn't leave still buy. I'm like, yeah, there's this one 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:15.880 car and he's like, yeah, me too, and he's like, 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.199 you know, he said, my thing's a singer. I'm like, 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.320 oh my god, that's mine as well. And he's like, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:22.400 why don't you have one? I'm like cause't. I just 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.840 can't let myself do it. It's too special, right, It's 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:26.960 always that thing I held on a platform. And so 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:31.000 literally two weeks later, totally unrelated, I get a in 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:34.600 a meeting or having a barbecue with somebody and he says, oh, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.600 you must be looking at Singer, given your view on 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.000 vehicles and you know, this kind of digital versus analog world. 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:42.600 And I said, no, there's no way Singer needs any 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:45.720 financial assistants. They get a multi year backlog and he's like, no, no, no, 0:14:45.760 --> 0:14:48.840 they're looking for some capital. And so we get connected 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.560 to the lawyer that was representing him, and one thing 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.560 led to another. And what's nice about that is, you know, 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.520 we've learned a ton about the space and the industry, 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:00.000 and I think that we've been able to add value 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:02.920 and helping the company think strategically. And what I would 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:05.920 say is that I think Singers now have a view 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:08.040 that you know, maybe it's a little bit more of 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:11.600 a luxury brand than what we originally thought. And with 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.480 all things luxury, the goal is sell less for more. 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:18.520 So let's not push the sales higher. Let's push sales, 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.760 you know, target sales units lower. Maybe get a little 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:25.680 bit additional price, but make it more exclusive. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.920 And I think, you know that's a really I hate that. 0:15:29.200 --> 0:15:30.720 I won't love it. I love it one time. 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.680 You know, Keanu Reeves makes these arch motorcycles, of course, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.200 and I ran into him and makes a m Doukatti 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.480 World premiere in Milan a few years ago, and he 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:43.720 was saying he was talking to the CEO, and I 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:45.680 kind of barge in their conversation. He was saying, they're 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.040 making another version and the one they sells are like 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:49.080 seventy five grande. 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:51.640 I can't really justify that. So I was like, oh, cool, are. 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.160 You going to make one that's cheaper? And he said no, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:55.680 it's going to cost twice the price. 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:58.120 And I was like, I'm priced. 0:15:57.840 --> 0:15:58.280 Out, all right. 0:15:58.400 --> 0:16:00.840 I know, well that is interesting because I was going 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.560 to ask if you considered Singer to be a luxury 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.920 asset for sure, and do you value that differently than 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.360 like an infrastructure asset, for instance. 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.160 So infrastructure, you know, you know, in a reasonably low 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:15.840 rate environment like the more we're in now, I mean 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:17.640 it's not as low as it as it was, but 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.520 you know, infrastructure assets are command high multiples if the 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:24.160 durability of earnings is very stable. But if we say, 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:27.640 let's compare it to another manufacturing business, it's worth a multiple, 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.040 you know, like if a manufacturing business its ten percent 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:34.720 ebitdam margins is worth you know, seven times ebitdes six 0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:38.440 seven times. But you know, Singers with their margins is 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:43.200 worth you know, mid teens, high teens, which is consistent 0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:45.920 with where if you were to graph out not Ferrari, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.600 ferraris a little bit higher because that brand is really 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:49.640 pretty spectacular. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.120 But there's a case to. 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.960 Be made that you know, Singer represents one of the 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:56.720 very few luxury brands that are based in the US, 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.240 and that was you know, really created in the US, 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.520 and me Rob done a great job of bringing that 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.159 California car ethos you know, into. 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:05.600 The business, and. 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:13.720 I think his ability to create this zeitgeist of you know, 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:16.960 of Singer is is really incredible. And Maz and the 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:20.160 team have done an amazing job of marketing it globally 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:22.600 and trying to do it in a way that that 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:27.080 respects our partners and and you know, at the same time, 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:30.639 you know, makes it a business that can grow and 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:32.080 be profitable. 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.800 This may derail our whole conversation, but I'm going to 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:46.240 ask it anyway, because I'm really fascinated by what you 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:51.760 said about, you know, sort of mentioning and verbalizing that 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.520 you had singer on a pedestal basically, and two weeks 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:57.320 later you have an opportunity to get involved. And I 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.239 remember in Barrie's conversation you mentioned a friend I think 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.480 of your dad's when you were very young, who asked 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.720 what you wanted and you told him, and in a 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.520 matter of months later, you were You were there, you 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:12.399 were in the Cayman Islands with a boat making the 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.560 amount of money that you had said, how often does 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:19.640 this happen to you? And what is this magic that 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.320 you are seemingly able to conjure when you speak things? 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:26.640 And then the universe? 0:18:27.880 --> 0:18:30.440 Yes, it's not a superpower everybody has. 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:36.639 It's it's about manifesting an outcome. You just you know, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.359 you have to be open minded to it that you 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:40.960 know there's a god. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:42.320 It's going to sound super corny, but. 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:44.760 There's a really good book called The Secret, and if 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.359 you haven't read it, you should read it. That's for 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.680 everybody listening. I don't care how successful you are, you 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:51.719 should read the book. And you probably if you're if 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:53.919 you happen to be very successful. You're probably either very 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.080 luckily lucky or you're you're already you know, using some 0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:00.439 of these skills. I think you have to be open to, 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:03.560 you know, whether we call it the universe or we 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.680 just call it, you know, karma, we call it, you know, 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:10.520 the coincidences of life. You have to be open to 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:15.120 allowing these things to come into your sphere. And I think, 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.359 you know, as it relates to Singer, that was something 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.679 we cared about, and sure enough it presented itself. Racing 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:23.879 was something that we thought would be really interesting and 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:26.320