Speaker 1: You know Cheryl Burke from her twenty six seasons on
Speaker 1: Dancing with the Stars. But behind the rhinestones and glam,
Speaker 1: Cheryl's life was filled with trauma, addiction, and abandonment. All
Speaker 1: of this has profoundly affected her life. Cheryl says she's
Speaker 1: never had a healthy romantic relationship. On this powerful episode
Speaker 1: of Navigating Narcissism, Cheryl and I explore the roots of
Speaker 1: the painful, traumatic, and difficult life she's endured, what she's
Speaker 1: learned about herself, and how a conversation with me years
Speaker 1: ago led to a significant revelation about her own father.
Speaker 1: From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm Doctor Romney
Speaker 1: and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be
Speaker 1: used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice.
Speaker 1: Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and
Speaker 1: or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any
Speaker 1: medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters
Speaker 1: discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may
Speaker 1: be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed
Speaker 1: are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating
Speaker 1: in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of
Speaker 1: Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees.
Speaker 2: Share.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, you and I actually met a few years
Speaker 1: ago when I was on your podcast and you talk
Speaker 1: to me about narcissism right and been a foreshadow. You said, oh,
Speaker 1: you should have your podcast. Yeah I didn't, and here
Speaker 1: we are an even better. You're a guest who knew
Speaker 1: I was psychic, So thank you.
Speaker 2: Of course I want you to know how much you
Speaker 2: have affected my life in a way that you probably
Speaker 2: don't know. But when you we were on the podcast,
Speaker 2: we did talk about my real father who has passed,
Speaker 2: and you mentioned how the qualities of a narcissist, right,
Speaker 2: and it really put everything into perspective for me, and
Speaker 2: in a weird way, I was able to not necessarily
Speaker 2: validate his actions or anything, but to at least be
Speaker 2: able to label it in a way and have some
Speaker 2: sort of piece as to Okay, so my father was
Speaker 2: a narcissist and that was a huge revelation. So thank you. Well.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that so much. I think having a frame
Speaker 1: for something sometimes it's even just about lifting some of
Speaker 1: that self blame and recognizing that it's a structural thing
Speaker 1: that was simply going to happen to anyone who happens
Speaker 1: to be in the position you were in as his daughter,
Speaker 1: and it lifts us out of the story. You were
Speaker 1: still hurt by it, you were still affected by it.
Speaker 1: None of that is taken away, but it's a whole
Speaker 1: other level when you feel at all that you're partly
Speaker 1: responsible for it, right, And that's the piece that the
Speaker 1: framework helps with. What amazing about you is how much
Speaker 1: candor you bring when you share your stories and your experiences,
Speaker 1: And it is so important because people do see you
Speaker 1: as a performer. People almost project a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: onto you. And when you stop being the person on
Speaker 1: the screen, the dancer, and you show your humanity but
Speaker 1: also what you've been through with such vulnerability, you give
Speaker 1: permission to millions of other people to lift some of
Speaker 1: the shame off of themselves. So I always think it's
Speaker 1: powerful when somebody who has a public platform does that
Speaker 1: kind of open sharing. I don't think people quite understand
Speaker 1: what an impact that has, So I would say that
Speaker 1: on behalf of many survivors, thank you so much, and
Speaker 1: you've shared some really profound and painful experiences from experiencing
Speaker 1: sexual abuse, as a child, to even a journey of sobriety.
Speaker 1: So all of this is the kinds of things people
Speaker 1: grapple with but don't talk about.
Speaker 2: Thanks for creating an amazing outlet and resource for people,
Speaker 2: because this is very important. I heard you say recently
Speaker 2: that though it may seem like we're going through this
Speaker 2: as a collective of being able to talk about our traumas,
Speaker 2: at the same time, we're not, you know, and on
Speaker 2: top of it all because of you know, social media.
Speaker 2: There's amazing things about it, but there's also the negative
Speaker 2: things about it, which is people feeling like they have
Speaker 2: the right to judge you for being vulnerable, and to
Speaker 2: say that I don't get affected by it to this
Speaker 2: day would be a lie. I'm already being vulnerable, and
Speaker 2: then on top of it, I'm being question as to
Speaker 2: why I'm being vulnerable or I'm over sharing. So thank
Speaker 2: you for educating and continuing to have these uncomfortable conversations.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I do appreciate that, and I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I think that we often are We're open to these
Speaker 1: stories almost only to the point where sort of we
Speaker 1: learn the information, but we don't want to hear the
Speaker 1: emotion and what it does to the person. You know,
Speaker 1: it's always like what I call sort of trauma storytelling
Speaker 1: that we're just we want to hear the terrible thing
Speaker 1: that happened. But that's a tiny top of an iceberg.
Speaker 1: The rest of it is how it's shaped a person
Speaker 1: and how it affects how they go through the world
Speaker 1: and how they've had to carry that burden and how
Speaker 1: they ultimately put some of that down and grow and
Speaker 1: heal and sometimes have setbacks. That really is where the
Speaker 1: focus needs to be. But I think we get so
Speaker 1: caught up in the tell me what happened, Okay, now
Speaker 1: I'm done, Yeah, and that actually yeah, not believe in
Speaker 1: or when you bring the emotion in people, I go,
Speaker 1: that's enough, we've heard. We don't want to hear your
Speaker 1: raw emotion. And so that's definitely what this is really
Speaker 1: a space about survivors, and I think all of these
Speaker 1: stories that come up, they're much more perpetrator focus. We're
Speaker 1: so curious about people who do bad things, right, But
Speaker 1: what we don't really ever unpack is what happens to
Speaker 1: the person who experience to the bad things. And it
Speaker 1: is remarkable to me how uninterested we've historically been or.
Speaker 2: Who gets then almost made out to be the perpetrator.
Speaker 1: That's actually something, interestingly Churel we talked about with an
Speaker 1: expert of ours, doctor Fried, who developed a model of
Speaker 1: that called DARVO. DARVO is an acronym developed by doctor
Speaker 1: Jen for Fried and stands for deny, attack and reverse
Speaker 1: victim and offender. It is the way manipulative and abusive
Speaker 1: people respond to accusations. I like to think of it
Speaker 1: as supercharged gaslighting. When you face up to an abuser
Speaker 1: about their behavior, they will deny it, attack you for
Speaker 1: calling them out, and then flip to behaving like the
Speaker 1: victim and shaping the narrative as though you are harming them.
Speaker 1: It can leave many people in abusive relationships feeling as
Speaker 1: though they are the ones who have done something wrong.
Speaker 2: I'll never forget I got sexually molested when I was
Speaker 2: a little girl, and I testified against him in court
Speaker 2: when I was like nine years old. And I remember
Speaker 2: even that time as if it was yesterday. I just
Speaker 2: felt I was here sitting in front of the perpetrator
Speaker 2: right and it wasn't just me, it was quite a
Speaker 2: few people. They wouldn't let my mom with me inside
Speaker 2: the court, and I will never forget feeling like I
Speaker 2: was doing something wrong, like I was lying. That's I
Speaker 2: would say, the start of not necessarily trusting myself, because
Speaker 2: in a way it was a way of grooming. This
Speaker 2: man did a great job of doing that, Like it
Speaker 2: wasn't physical pain. And it was to the point where
Speaker 2: I started questioning myself, likes to did he do anything
Speaker 2: bad because he never hurt me. And then it didn't
Speaker 2: help being like testifying against this man and not necessarily
Speaker 2: I didn't feel like I was being believed at all,
Speaker 2: and it was just a horrible feeling. I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1: It's a horrible feeling when you also stacked it up
Speaker 1: nine years old. If any of us close our eyes
Speaker 1: and think back to how young.
Speaker 2: Yeah, nine is, Yeah, that's young, right.
Speaker 1: Adult survivors of any form of sexual assault or trauma
Speaker 1: rarely testify in their cases, So what you did would
Speaker 1: have been beyond the pale for even an adult, and
Speaker 1: it's understandable why nobody wants to testify in these cases.
Speaker 1: These systems are all designed to give perpetrators their that's
Speaker 1: how our justice system is set up, and to be
Speaker 1: doubting of the accuser. That is the foundation of how
Speaker 1: this justice system is set up. It's innocent until proven guilty. Well,
Speaker 1: if that's the case, that means an accuser is then
Speaker 1: being viewed through a suspicious lens, right, And that's particularly
Speaker 1: pronounced and profound when a person is bringing sexual trauma,
Speaker 1: especially a child as a miner whose brain hasn't really
Speaker 1: developed in a way to fully integrate what this is.
Speaker 1: Children look to adult for safety. That's what they do.
Speaker 1: So when an adult violates a child's safety, the child
Speaker 1: doesn't actually have a good template to turn to for that,
Speaker 1: and so the child's go to is to figure out
Speaker 1: how they're complicit in this because that story allows them
Speaker 1: to be safer in the world at large. Otherwise the
Speaker 1: world becomes real dangerous, real fast. All adults become potentially risky.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: We talk about people being invalidating and traumatizing, and frankly,
Speaker 1: narcissistic systems are too. I think the judicial system is
Speaker 1: a great example of a system that is invalidating and traumatizing,
Speaker 1: especially for survivors of any form of sexual violence.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for saying all of that. It just reminds
Speaker 2: me of people in general who suffer in silence because
Speaker 2: of the fact of either feeling like they weren't believed
Speaker 2: when telling their story or there's so much shame because
Speaker 2: of not being able to or feeling like they can't
Speaker 2: communicate it. You know, I was blessed, I guess enough
Speaker 2: for my mom to put me into therapy since I
Speaker 2: was a little girl, and I haven't stopped, and it's
Speaker 2: something that it's not negotiable in my life. But it
Speaker 2: has been really hard to put everything into words my
Speaker 2: body because I'm a dancer. I have a sematic therapist.
Speaker 2: I haven't talk therapists, but the sematic is a lot easier,
Speaker 2: but I'm still learning how to be able to communicate
Speaker 2: this through talking.
Speaker 1: It's so interesting you say that, Cheryl, because trauma is
Speaker 1: very much encoded in stored somatically. That's where we keep it.
Speaker 1: And what we've learned in the last thirty years of
Speaker 1: trauma treatment is that that sematic focus is a game change,
Speaker 1: right and reorienting to our bodies. What's remarkable to me
Speaker 1: is you a trauma survivor, your body became your form
Speaker 1: of art, So what an ultimate way to heal. But
Speaker 1: also it's really weird too.
Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, but you're going to stuff yourself in
Speaker 2: a dance costume when you've been violated, right, and comfortable
Speaker 2: dancing in front of millions of people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for people who are listening. You know, when we're
Speaker 1: talking about how we hold things sematically, we hold them
Speaker 1: in our body. So trauma gets held in the body.
Speaker 1: And I've been working for years, I mean, if not lifetimes,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, over the years, it would
Speaker 1: be many times people wouldn't connect. It would be even
Speaker 1: things like when people felt they couldn't speak, the strangulation
Speaker 1: in the throats, anxiety, it's felt in the gut, it's
Speaker 1: felt in the head, it's felt in the shoulders. It's
Speaker 1: and that's often where people would process it first, right,
Speaker 1: And it's then teaching people you understand. I always say
Speaker 1: that the brain, the mind often gaslights the body. The
Speaker 1: body's holding all the truth and the brain's like, come on,
Speaker 1: like drama, body, right, and so, but I think that
Speaker 1: it's because the brain and the body are serving different functions.
Speaker 1: The brain is trying to keep you safe, right, So
Speaker 1: it's like, body, don't tell me this, like everything's dangerous.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no no no, we can't work with that, right,
Speaker 1: And so the brain's like just chill body, because I
Speaker 1: can't manage this much threat and the body feels the threat.
Speaker 1: One of the things we often see with trauma survivors
Speaker 1: is you can teach them to trust their bodies, sometimes
Speaker 1: a little quicker than we can teach them to trust
Speaker 1: their minds, right, because this is where it's all held.
Speaker 2: Because you can't hide the feeling.
Speaker 1: You can't hide the feeling, you can't hide your sensation.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people don't connect the dots interesting.
Speaker 1: They have the sensation, they've had this experience, but what
Speaker 1: they don't realize is that this stuff that's held in
Speaker 1: their body the Semitic stuff, and that their body is
Speaker 1: signaling something to them. And so that's why, in some ways,
Speaker 1: your body is an interesting early detection device because I
Speaker 1: will tell particularly people have survived any kind of trauma,
Speaker 1: whether it be physical, sexual, or even emotional. Listen to
Speaker 1: your body, because your poor brain has been trying to
Speaker 1: run circles and makes sense to go it does and listen,
Speaker 1: and when you're feeling that that might be a sign
Speaker 1: to say, you know what, I think I'm going to
Speaker 1: step out of this situation because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: data there.
Speaker 2: But with that feeling when you're like, do I walk
Speaker 2: through this alleyway or not? Like you just know you
Speaker 2: just need to give it a second and trust it.
Speaker 2: It's body awareness, just knowing when your stomach hurts or
Speaker 2: whatever it is. Oucha, you ran to the door, done
Speaker 2: that a few times, you know it hurts, like and
Speaker 2: just acknowledging it. But yes, I'm blessed that dance was
Speaker 2: my form of I'm blessed first of all that my
Speaker 2: mom was able to afford my dancing career, but also
Speaker 2: my mom thought I was deaf growing up because I
Speaker 2: didn't talk at all. She took me to a hearing
Speaker 2: specialist who said, no, miss, but your daughter's going through PTSD,
Speaker 2: which is why she's not talking. Like how this was
Speaker 2: even for the sexual abuse and I just my mom
Speaker 2: and dad divorced when I was two, so that was
Speaker 2: very traumatic and though it was like yesterday, another traumatic
Speaker 2: event happened was witnessing my father being intimate with another
Speaker 2: woman at such a young age. Though they were separated,
Speaker 2: I didn't put two and two together. So that was
Speaker 2: like my very first memory as a kid.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go backwards, All right, let's go back.
Speaker 1: So you were not talking. You didn't really start talking
Speaker 1: until you were two, No, after that, three four, maybe
Speaker 1: five five? Okay, all right, so that would have been
Speaker 1: something that would have jumped out. Okay, yeah, but at
Speaker 1: two you said your parents divorce. Right, Can you talk
Speaker 1: to me about that period of time because it sounds
Speaker 1: like that that was a separated or separated but that's
Speaker 1: a significant event for sanchi, young child to us no
Speaker 1: language to even understand what was happening. Yeah, So what
Speaker 1: was all that like?
Speaker 2: Well, it was interesting because my mother's Filipina. She was
Speaker 2: raised long story, shortened poverty and moved here to the
Speaker 2: States and created a nursing agency called Nurse Provider. So
Speaker 2: she opened up the very first nursing agency. Like how
Speaker 2: we as talent have agents. So she was very, very busy.
Speaker 2: And I was born in eighty four and that's when
Speaker 2: her company had just started, so there wasn't a lot
Speaker 2: of I guess I was raised with my Filipina nanny
Speaker 2: more than anybody as far as my parents go. So
Speaker 2: there's that We're living in the Bay Area where I'm from,
Speaker 2: and I just remember going bouncing from house to house.
Speaker 2: So my father's home for a couple of days, and
Speaker 2: then my mom, you know, but then my Filipina nanny
Speaker 2: was with me at all times. Oh so she'd go
Speaker 2: from house to back correct yes, yes, yes, yes, but
Speaker 2: still like she wasn't able to drive, she couldn't speak English.
Speaker 2: So that was another reason why I didn't talk, because
Speaker 2: we had two different languages spoken in home.
Speaker 1: You had a lot going on, and that kind of
Speaker 1: the chaos, the multiple languages, all of that. I mean,
Speaker 1: now we would probably have assessed a child like you
Speaker 1: very differently. Well, what I'm hearing is busy parents, yes,
Speaker 1: distracted parents, Yes, you're going back and forth. The only
Speaker 1: consistent through line in your life is a paid kit
Speaker 1: nanny who didn't speak who didn't speak English. What I'm
Speaker 1: hearing is being affected. There was attachment.
Speaker 2: I am totally anxious attachment.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, And so let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about any anxious attachment is because people are going to say, well,
Speaker 1: what does that mean if someone's anxiously attached? What does
Speaker 1: it mean to you? Before I launch into sort of
Speaker 1: a professorial what anxious?
Speaker 2: Okay is? I love this already. I could talk to
Speaker 2: you for weeks. I have anxiety when it comes to
Speaker 2: first of all relationships but abandonment issues. It's interesting because
Speaker 2: me and my therapists were talking about this in length,
Speaker 2: actually about avoidant versus anxious, and I am a little
Speaker 2: bit of both, but I'm mainly anxious though the avoidant
Speaker 2: had just started to happen because of the fear of
Speaker 2: feeling needy and maybe feeling rejected because of my anxious
Speaker 2: attachment issue that I then quickly switch over to becoming avoidant.
Speaker 2: So it all like it's not either or what.
Speaker 1: Does that look like when you become So if you go.
Speaker 2: So like if I feel rejected by let's say, if
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, let's cuddle, or like I'm becoming I'm
Speaker 2: extra vulnerable right through my body and I don't feel
Speaker 2: like that other person is open to it, then I
Speaker 2: will right away my wall.
Speaker 1: Fast right and and so you know, with this protective
Speaker 1: you're protecting, I'm protecting myself and this kind of you know,
Speaker 1: the kind of early inconsistency in mild chaos you were
Speaker 1: living in, will impact attachments, so totally. You know, the
Speaker 1: gold standard that what we hope for for everybody is
Speaker 1: a secure attachment, of course, and with the secure attachment,
Speaker 1: the child feels safe, They feel that they're they can
Speaker 1: they have readily available caregivers that they can beckon and
Speaker 1: make needs known to, and they feel safe expressing those
Speaker 1: needs and that those needs would not be rejected or
Speaker 1: the child will be abandoned. It's so interesting to me
Speaker 1: to see you. You literally gave this big expence. Oh,
Speaker 1: I said that. You know that that is something that
Speaker 1: you want and want and wish for. Right, Yeah, children.
Speaker 2: Can be then realize that only I can do that for.
Speaker 1: Myself as now, But some children can be securely attached
Speaker 1: to one caregiver and not to another. Of course, but
Speaker 1: when we get into the area and.
Speaker 2: We had my second caregiver who admosted me.
Speaker 1: There you go. See. So that's what we're going to
Speaker 1: get you that now, when a caregiver engages in harm,
Speaker 1: you were older than then I would know. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so not much older, but those early early caregiver attachments,
Speaker 1: those become really profoundly important. As other people come into
Speaker 1: the sphere of the child, it's still going to affect attachment.
Speaker 1: The way they researched this was they would actually look
Speaker 1: at what's called separation behavior and reunion behavior. So children
Speaker 1: being separated from their caregiver. Usually in this research, it
Speaker 1: was a mother how they would do it goodbye, and
Speaker 1: how they would do it hellodbye, and that's them. I
Speaker 1: was mom was dressed up in a ball gown and
Speaker 1: like mind you, she was working like long hours. I
Speaker 1: remember grabbing onto her ank I'll never forget it. And
Speaker 1: she was with her friends. And it's with any goodbyes,
Speaker 1: any goodbyes. Did generalize says to all goodbyes. Right, So
Speaker 1: the goodbye is chaotic and there's a lot of distress
Speaker 1: and it takes a minute to soothe the child. Then
Speaker 1: the child does their thing. Then when the child comes
Speaker 1: back with the caregiver, there's this almost like almost like
Speaker 1: a don't like you're back, don't leave me again, and
Speaker 1: almost like a pro right. That's the only way I
Speaker 1: could describe it.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: In the avoidantly attached child, when the point of separation comes,
Speaker 1: they kind of walk off and when the parent comes back,
Speaker 1: there could be some tears, some agitation, but by and
Speaker 1: large they remain disinterested.
Speaker 2: What are the parents like when you're avoidant attachment.
Speaker 1: They're neglectful. There's much more. It's very much a.
Speaker 2: Different like neglectful versus intrusive busy.
Speaker 1: Well that's that's a neglect. But there's also there was
Speaker 1: intrusiveness too, right, there was also like it's not as
Speaker 1: though you didn't think there was anyone there, you know,
Speaker 1: it's that they were there and they were kind of
Speaker 1: like up, down, in out, probably overinvolved, under involved, that
Speaker 1: kind of thing that it's not like nobody there.
Speaker 2: And can you get to the secure attachment.
Speaker 1: It takes a lot of work, it does, you know.
Speaker 1: But here's the thing you said, you're in therapy. Therapy
Speaker 1: becomes actually one of those places where the secure attachment
Speaker 1: gets created again. You know that the therapist is there
Speaker 1: on time, and they're there and available, and they don't
Speaker 1: reject you because you say something. And that if in
Speaker 1: long term psychotherapy, that can be one place for it.
Speaker 1: Really healthy friendships that persist for a long time. We
Speaker 1: can have these safe, secure bases we slowly start to create.
Speaker 1: Some people will say some of that starts for them
Speaker 1: when they have children, that they become a secure base
Speaker 1: for the child. Now, some anxiously attached parents can also
Speaker 1: be hovery. So they really need to get their stuff
Speaker 1: in order before they have a child. Is a good
Speaker 1: way to do it. Have a dog first, you know,
Speaker 1: have a dog first. I think it absolutely can be
Speaker 1: it can be reworked in adult relationships, but it has
Speaker 1: to be intentional. It can't just be that you get
Speaker 1: lucky and you find it good. But then you said,
Speaker 1: at the age of three, I just want to understand
Speaker 1: what happen that you walked in on your father. Yes,
Speaker 1: and he was having sex with someone obviously no mother, Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 1: how did it look at my mother? Okay, okay, you
Speaker 1: had to type how did that? You obviously have?
Speaker 2: That was traumatic?
Speaker 1: That's traumatic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll never forget as well. Like I remember,
Speaker 2: you know, because I was staying there so I had
Speaker 2: to shower, you know, and I needed help, so he'd
Speaker 2: make me shower with this like woman who was his secretary. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was pretty traumatic seeing that. And I just remember
Speaker 2: seeing opening the door and seeing just like the back
Speaker 2: of her she had long black hair. It was it's interesting,
Speaker 2: like and she was naked.
Speaker 1: Obviously.
Speaker 2: This is how much detail I know. I was sitting
Speaker 2: in my dad's brown leather chair watching Sesame Street on PBS,
Speaker 2: and I wanted him to change the channel. And I
Speaker 2: go in and there was like a crack in the door,
Speaker 2: and then I saw him, you know, being with this
Speaker 2: other woman. And obviously I didn't know it was his
Speaker 2: secretary back then, obviously I didn't know. I couldn't put
Speaker 2: anything into words at the moment, but of course it
Speaker 2: was traumatic, and I think that was the start of
Speaker 2: you know, what I thought was and.
Speaker 1: What what would that be?
Speaker 2: That would be all unhealthy? I guess toxic traits of
Speaker 2: a man, which is a narcissistic personalities abuse. And I
Speaker 2: don't just say that because of my father. I say
Speaker 2: this because of the perpetrator as well, the person who
Speaker 2: actually abused me. And then on top of it all,
Speaker 2: like the pattern that's that was my definition of love
Speaker 2: was the man who wasn't available.
Speaker 1: Well, that's what it is. It's the chaos, right love.
Speaker 2: I would still say, I'm a recovering addict, but still
Speaker 2: like there is that feels like home still sometimes like
Speaker 2: my lazy brain, as I say, which is just me
Speaker 2: not being present or conscious as much. It goes back
Speaker 2: to that like easily.
Speaker 1: So that early instance, Okay, you walk in on your
Speaker 1: so your father who is in theory, these are his
Speaker 1: few days with you. He's not being an attentive caregive
Speaker 1: no instead, what he's doing is you know, having this
Speaker 1: fling with his secretary. You see this, Okay?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he knows I would assume he knew.
Speaker 1: Right this one instance was I mean sheheryl. People have
Speaker 1: walked in on their on parents, maybe even parents and
Speaker 1: someone else having sex. Right, It's an image that often
Speaker 1: stays with people. That event was one. How did that
Speaker 1: connect to your larger relationship with your father, because it
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like that that was so.
Speaker 2: He left that country for his own selfish reasons. So
Speaker 2: my dad was a very successful lawyer in the bar
Speaker 2: area and then followed his passion and I won't say
Speaker 2: it here with the P and the Y, but open
Speaker 2: up a bunch of strip clubs. That's his passion, right, correct?
Speaker 2: It was rest and peace. I'm sure it's no longer
Speaker 2: his passion.
Speaker 1: I would hope you never know what happens on the
Speaker 1: other side, that's for sure.
Speaker 2: I can't tell you any different. I mean, I'm just
Speaker 2: assuming or maybe dreaming that he's now like this. Who
Speaker 2: knows anyway, Rest and peace dad? But yeah, so he
Speaker 2: had a bunch of strip clubs in Pataya, in Thailand,
Speaker 2: and clearly he loves loved his Asian women and opened
Speaker 2: up a bunch of strip clubs. I was exposed to
Speaker 2: that world because my mom wanted me to continue having
Speaker 2: a relationship with my father. Didn't want to obviously, I
Speaker 2: guess promote me not talking to him or seeing him.
Speaker 2: So it was like a once a year it was
Speaker 2: a family getaway to Pataya, not at his strip clubs.
Speaker 2: But he did live on top of his strip clubs
Speaker 2: called Bubbles.
Speaker 1: So when you would go to Thaighland for these vacations
Speaker 1: on a top of bubbles and.
Speaker 2: With my stepdad, with my stepsister by mom, So your
Speaker 2: mom's a family affair mom stepfather's sister, my mom remarried. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So would you.
Speaker 1: Stay on top of bubbles or would you.
Speaker 2: No, we would stay at the Holiday Inn. Okay, it's
Speaker 2: way nicer there. Just y that it is here.
Speaker 1: Stay at the Holiday Inn. But it was you were
Speaker 1: very aware of the whole What was it you mean clubs?
Speaker 2: It was a clubs. I was never going in the
Speaker 2: club right, And my dad was an alcoholic, so he
Speaker 2: was only able to talk to us in a silver
Speaker 2: way after five pm, So we wouldn't talk to him
Speaker 2: before five and we would see him between the windows
Speaker 2: of five and eight, and he loved to have long
Speaker 2: dinners and long talks and conversations. I'd be jet lag,
Speaker 2: I'd fall asleep wherever we are, and he would take
Speaker 2: my stepdad out once a year and it would be
Speaker 2: at one of his clubs. That's all I remember. And
Speaker 2: then the rest we went to go see elephants like
Speaker 2: it was not very eventful.
Speaker 1: Okay. So what that also communicates is that your father
Speaker 1: made a choice. He left his one daughter, yeah okay,
Speaker 1: and when she's a very small child to pursue his
Speaker 1: strip club dream in Thailand. So he's not doing this
Speaker 1: in the Bay Area. Now, he's doing this on the
Speaker 1: other side of the world and leaves you for his
Speaker 1: own need with no awareness, no reflection, no empathy.
Speaker 2: And no care really care. Yeah, honestly, Like I remember dancing,
Speaker 2: when I started in the ballroom dancing competitive world, my
Speaker 2: mom signed me up to do this competition in Hong
Speaker 2: Kong and we're like, oh, because it's close by. You know,
Speaker 2: your dad can finally see you in person. After all
Speaker 2: these years he hasn't come to see you, and he
Speaker 2: I'll never forget. I got a call the night before
Speaker 2: our flight and he flaked and That was very, very
Speaker 2: traumatic for me because he was just not available, and
Speaker 2: when he was it was between the hours of five
Speaker 2: and eight.
Speaker 1: How old were you in the ballroom dancing competition?
Speaker 2: I was like thirteen or fourteen.
Speaker 1: So all those years you kept maintaining hope around Yeah,
Speaker 1: of course.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting because to this day, I feel
Speaker 2: like my real father will always know more about me
Speaker 2: than my mom in a way, because I felt like
Speaker 2: I was never judged by him because he couldn't tell
Speaker 2: me what to do because he was never there. As
Speaker 2: I got older, we would have long talks and conversations
Speaker 2: like as if he was a buddy of mine. But
Speaker 2: still so much pain. You know, I could and always
Speaker 2: still wanting to feel like I was being though I
Speaker 2: wasn't validated. I'm still yearning for that, you know.
Speaker 1: Every child? Yes that though, I think that what we
Speaker 1: forget about children because it's not comparable to describe what
Speaker 1: happens to a child with a narcissistic parent is what
Speaker 1: happens to an adult in a narcissistic relationship. Right. The
Speaker 1: child can't be taught that the parent is never going
Speaker 1: to see you, get you, recognize you, acknowledge you. I
Speaker 1: mean he wasn't around, He wasn't in your life physically,
Speaker 1: so it wasn't a real safety need, like he wasn't
Speaker 1: sort of like the one locking the door at night,
Speaker 1: but it was more of a that psychologically, we feel
Speaker 1: like we have to have these attachment needs and they
Speaker 1: shape who we are. I am valid because my parents
Speaker 1: love me, right, and so the hope that a child
Speaker 1: keeps creating around that. And when parents are chronically disappointing,
Speaker 1: as many narcissistic parents are. And remember narcissistic parents, they
Speaker 1: come in two forms. Either they're over intrusive and they're
Speaker 1: constantly in your stuff. You know it wasn't that right
Speaker 1: and were then you have these detached narcissistic mom Your
Speaker 1: mom was right, So you're detached, detached narcissistic parent who
Speaker 1: they will think nothing of not showing up. They'll think
Speaker 1: you should just get over it. You're just your secondary thought.
Speaker 1: If it had lined up for him and he had
Speaker 1: some reason to be in Hong Kong, he would have
Speaker 1: shown up at your thing.
Speaker 2: And except the fear of flying, it was paranoia, nothing
Speaker 2: to do with me.
Speaker 1: Right, fear of flying. He managed to get to Thailand.
Speaker 2: Right, nothing to do with me. Yet I thought back
Speaker 2: then everything to do with me, You feel like it's
Speaker 2: your fault, everything is your fault, and then those are
Speaker 2: the men I needed.
Speaker 1: That's right, and that that idea of everything your fault,
Speaker 1: that's at the center of classical formulations of trauma, like
Speaker 1: Judith Hermann's work, who studied children who have gone through trauma,
Speaker 1: and then her work is sort of seminal work on
Speaker 1: this idea of the child takes responsibility Judith Herman, and
Speaker 1: that stays with the person their entire lives. We will
Speaker 1: be right back with this conversation. And so, okay, you've
Speaker 1: gotten interested in dancing, and your mom has invested the
Speaker 1: money for you to take dance classes is cheap, which
Speaker 1: is not cheap, and now you're competitively dancing all over
Speaker 1: the world, all over the amazing So you are just
Speaker 1: really loyal at this obviously, which we now know for sure,
Speaker 1: But even at thirteen, well, I was wanting to like,
Speaker 1: that's my personality.
Speaker 2: As you know, I'm an addict. I'm a recovering addict.
Speaker 2: But you know I'm all or nothing, which is why
Speaker 2: you know, my therapist and I have for years now
Speaker 2: worked consistently on the gray area because it is very
Speaker 2: black or white for me in my mind.
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought of all or nothingness like that?
Speaker 1: Almost to be a form of dissociation. It's a way
Speaker 1: to not feel pain, right.
Speaker 2: Girl, you're speaking by language, Yes, I just got jills. Absolutely,
Speaker 2: I'm really good at productivity. That's my new drug.
Speaker 1: Productivity is actually the It's the drug of the twenty
Speaker 1: first century. And everyone thinks you're a hero for engaging,
Speaker 1: especially in this.
Speaker 2: Country because I've lived everywhere almost and I swear this
Speaker 2: is the only kind that celebrates the hustle, and it's
Speaker 2: actually nothing to celebrate because with that comes stress, With
Speaker 2: that comes to oh my god. I mean I could
Speaker 2: talk about that for hours, but yes, and my mother
Speaker 2: was that right. So is that she was raised in
Speaker 2: a Filipino family where vulnerability wasn't celebrated. It was a
Speaker 2: shamed like you were not supposed to show that side
Speaker 2: of you, coming from the Asian culture. And then on
Speaker 2: top of it all, she numbed through productivity. I mean
Speaker 2: she went from rags to riches and that was her
Speaker 2: straight up her by herself hustle.
Speaker 1: I mean again, motion is very good, but I think
Speaker 1: also having something that absorbs your mind. That's healthy, something
Speaker 1: that absorbs your mind, But using that to numb yourself
Speaker 1: and in essence to it unconsciously, that's right, because you're
Speaker 1: not processing the stuff you need to process now, and
Speaker 1: then you're doomed to keep repeating these trauma cycles because
Speaker 1: you're not actually addressed ceiling. Right, So your numbing was
Speaker 1: coming through this competitive dancing. Then it was alcohol, and
Speaker 1: then it was alcohol. When did you start?
Speaker 2: Dream When I moved here and when I started dancing
Speaker 2: on the Stars in two thousand and six, I was
Speaker 2: twenty one. I started when I was legal, Okay, legal? Okay,
Speaker 2: So you're dancing Advice and my Debutant's Ball when I
Speaker 2: was eighteen.
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're you would you dance competitively? Dad's not
Speaker 1: in your life, doesn't.
Speaker 2: My stepdad is my dad at the step.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, you step father. Your stepfather's great, wonderful is So.
Speaker 2: However he did I mean, I'm not saying, I'm just
Speaker 2: saying the facts here. He the person who sexually molested me,
Speaker 2: came from you know, his side, I guess came. He
Speaker 2: brought this man who was taking care of his daughter.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm not blaming him by any means. But
Speaker 2: you know, I'm just letting you know the fricks.
Speaker 1: But that was also a disruption in our minds. We
Speaker 1: we pair things, we learned things through association. So as
Speaker 1: much as you you love him and he's been a
Speaker 1: good person in your life, he is associated with then
Speaker 1: bringing in this really harrowing experience into your life. But
Speaker 1: then what you get to eighteen?
Speaker 2: Okay, well you know, thirteen to eighteen, okay, so that's
Speaker 2: my virginity at thirteen. You know, ballroom dancing is very intimate.
Speaker 2: We're basically dry humping each other, just so that everyone
Speaker 2: knows this is how intimate it is. A ballroom industry
Speaker 2: reminds me of the entertainment industry. A lot lots of narcissists,
Speaker 2: lots of great things as well. It's all about the
Speaker 2: you know, unfortunately, the way you look, and it's all
Speaker 2: about like it's old school. It is a man's world
Speaker 2: in a way. The man leads, the woman follows, and
Speaker 2: it's like that in real life behind the ballroom and
Speaker 2: all the glitz and glamour of it as well, and
Speaker 2: we're all just hustling, competing, fighting for our lives for
Speaker 2: a stupid trophy at the end of the day. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's not like you win millions of dollars, like if anything,
Speaker 2: you're spending Yeahney, which then is why you know, like
Speaker 2: when it comes to traveling. You know, my mom obviously
Speaker 2: she worked her ass off, you know, and she paid
Speaker 2: for everything. But not everyone can do that in the
Speaker 2: ballroom world, right, So like you know, these kids are,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes dancing on the streets, and I remember
Speaker 2: doing that in Union Square once because my mom and
Speaker 2: I got in a fight and she goes, I'm not
Speaker 2: paying for your airline ticket to England and I dance
Speaker 2: on the street. I mean like two thousand dollars with
Speaker 2: my dance partner, like just for the day. So it's possible,
Speaker 2: right to do it. But when you're a teenager, the
Speaker 2: hustle was already starting for me, and I was going
Speaker 2: to England just to quickly mention this Blackpool was like
Speaker 2: our version of the Olympics, and that happens every May,
Speaker 2: and so you'd have to take political lessons. You have
Speaker 2: to like go there and train and we would spend
Speaker 2: summers there and my mom couldn't always come with me.
Speaker 2: I couldn't always have a chaperone because both parents were
Speaker 2: working full time, and you know, my chaperone was my stepsister,
Speaker 2: which honestly was not a great chaperone. I had a
Speaker 2: chaperone her at some point, but like really, it was
Speaker 2: like you are living this world of playing dress up
Speaker 2: and working your ass off blood, sweat, and tears, and
Speaker 2: you're with this one person who's your dance partner. So
Speaker 2: things are abound to happen.
Speaker 1: So it was a dance partner, yeah, okay, And so
Speaker 1: that sounds like that was sort of was a normative
Speaker 1: in the world, you know, not normal. I also looked
Speaker 1: like this when I was thirteen, so okay, well, so okay,
Speaker 1: So then you know, you were I was very developed, okay,
Speaker 1: and that's young though, thirteen years young and start to
Speaker 1: start having sex. And so you go from thirteen to eighteen,
Speaker 1: did you do school remotely or did you go back
Speaker 1: to school?
Speaker 2: I would go to high school.
Speaker 1: You go to high school and then do the dancing
Speaker 1: on the weekends.
Speaker 2: Then I was like living two lives. And then I
Speaker 2: had a boyfriend also after you know, that first partner.
Speaker 2: Because I had like a total of eight to ten
Speaker 2: partners throughout my competitive world and dance partners. Dance partners. Yeah, no, no,
Speaker 2: not my sophomore year. I got into two very abusive relationships.
Speaker 2: That was when that started.
Speaker 1: That's young again, young for these things. An adult person's
Speaker 1: brain can't process an abusive relationship. And after already having
Speaker 1: been through really abandonment by your father. Abandon it might
Speaker 1: be a strong word for your mother, but she certainly
Speaker 1: was not in your life, you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: as much as as much she could have been, but
Speaker 1: she was there, she was supporting you financially, did the
Speaker 1: best she could. You were sexually abused, and now you're
Speaker 1: thirteen having sex. You're young, and then my parents didn't
Speaker 1: you know, And you're in emotionally abusive relationships and you're
Speaker 1: far away from it, and.
Speaker 2: I'm looking out for outside validation clearly by joining this ballroom,
Speaker 2: competitive world full of lashes, rhinestones, and spray dands.
Speaker 1: So those are your teens and then you turn eighteen, right,
Speaker 1: I mean that's sort of the magic adult moment. Did
Speaker 1: things shift in terms of you graduated high school?
Speaker 2: I had a debutant's ball. Oh that's my mom's fault. Okay,
Speaker 2: she made me Okay, I was very shy growing up
Speaker 2: in my teens, but again, dance was my way of communicating,
Speaker 2: so that was the one thing I knew I was
Speaker 2: good at. I was never good at school. I wasn't
Speaker 2: curious and I didn't care, and I was kind of
Speaker 2: a loner. So I was with this protective, jealous boyfriend
Speaker 2: for most of my high school and with that comes
Speaker 2: no friends. And then I also had my dancing life
Speaker 2: that I was kind of ashamed of in a weird way.
Speaker 1: Protective jealous boyfriend was okay with dance world.
Speaker 2: Didn't know. Dad didn't know, he would know. But then
Speaker 2: I would just go back and forth because there was
Speaker 2: a certain time where my mom wouldn't let me be
Speaker 2: away from it. So I had rules to follow, and
Speaker 2: those were the times that i'd go to the dance
Speaker 2: studio because I knew he was going to be jealous
Speaker 2: and controlling and protective. Yeah, okay, So there were moments
Speaker 2: of like that, and then the make up breakup, makeup, breakup,
Speaker 2: and then there was another one. And then there was
Speaker 2: a dance partner that I danced with who was also abusive.
Speaker 2: That was yeah, and then I moved to l.
Speaker 1: Were these physically abusive relationships emotionally abusive, both Okay, so
Speaker 1: that's a huge pardon to care.
Speaker 2: And no one knew at that time. I was not
Speaker 2: in therapy, but I had a lot of older friends
Speaker 2: in the ballroom world who helped me through, you know, yes,
Speaker 2: because I didn't feel comfortable enough to go to my parents.
Speaker 1: Right, So all of this is unprocessed. There's now multiple
Speaker 1: unprocessed from us at this point. Oh yeah, was your
Speaker 1: dad completely out of your life?
Speaker 2: Then my real dad?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're probably alogical dead in Thailand.
Speaker 2: I think there was a moment there where we stopped
Speaker 2: talking for a few years, but it was a constant letdown,
Speaker 2: you know, and as I got older, I saw it.
Speaker 2: But then I remember, like that Hong Kong trip, I
Speaker 2: stopped talking to him for like a few years. That
Speaker 2: was a choice that I made. And yeah, so I
Speaker 2: mean I wouldn't even consider him to be somebody I
Speaker 2: could call and talk to. But I did tell him
Speaker 2: everything afterwards after the fact.
Speaker 1: Did two of you ever get on a more normalized
Speaker 1: relationship together?
Speaker 2: And that's normal. I would visit him, we would, I would,
Speaker 2: and I brought my dance partner at the time of
Speaker 2: my dance coach. We went and then I saw his
Speaker 2: strip clubs really like active happening face to face there
Speaker 2: when I was like eighteen nineteen. And then I remember
Speaker 2: taking my ex husband there when he was basically on
Speaker 2: his deathbed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you and your dad was on his deathbed.
Speaker 2: Basically am in there? Okay.
Speaker 1: He stayed in Thailand for the rest of his yes life. Okay,
Speaker 1: so now this all you If you're going into adulthood,
Speaker 1: you're continuing to dance, but you're also continuing to be
Speaker 1: in relationships.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh I was never single.
Speaker 1: Okay, you were, Oh, you were never single, So talk
Speaker 1: about that now.
Speaker 2: This is the longest I've ever been single. Oh for
Speaker 2: a year and a half almost, all right, Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I choose to date myself right now, I really do
Speaker 2: not want to date anybody still, Okay.
Speaker 1: So then if you were never single, what was that?
Speaker 2: Like so much energy emotionally, like an emotional rollercoaster, but
Speaker 2: I was addicted to Like, without it, I felt like
Speaker 2: my life was boring and stagnant. Though that's my goal
Speaker 2: now to be boring but not boring, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean. Like that feeling of just being okay and
Speaker 2: at peace and at ease was something that I was
Speaker 2: not necessarily craving because I labeled it as boring and
Speaker 2: you're not in love. Then for me, being in love
Speaker 2: was the drama that you see on TV.
Speaker 1: That's trauma bonding. Yeah, that's right there, that's trauma bonding.
Speaker 1: The chaos becomes conflated with love. And so getting into
Speaker 1: a relationship that doesn't have the highs and lows and
Speaker 1: the good days and the bad days and all of that.
Speaker 1: When it's sort of steady, people will say, well, that's
Speaker 1: a friendship or that's not love, or I'm not feeling it.
Speaker 2: Mom and stepdad, and I was like, oh, they're definitely
Speaker 2: bored with each other, but really, no, that's just a
Speaker 2: healthy I wish I would have seen that as a
Speaker 2: little girl.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious about this because you were in so
Speaker 1: many relationships, one after the other after the other. Was
Speaker 1: there a commonality between all of these people that they
Speaker 1: were all abusive? That was one? Okay, there you go.
Speaker 1: Not I was hoping you'd say they all had brown eyes,
Speaker 1: but okay, so the commonality.
Speaker 2: They were all most of them were narcissists, and the
Speaker 2: ones that weren't I wasn't that into.
Speaker 1: Okay, So let me ask you this then, because It's
Speaker 1: interesting when you've had a life where you've had multiple
Speaker 1: relationships within validating toxic, narcissistic people. What attracted you to
Speaker 1: these people? I kind of think I know the answer,
Speaker 1: but I never want to present.
Speaker 2: One of them reminded me of my father.
Speaker 1: Okay, well there you go.
Speaker 2: It is one hundred percent true from either the way
Speaker 2: they look or and the personality traits. I've been cheated
Speaker 2: on multiple times and knew about it, and it was
Speaker 2: just a little tiny version of Steve Burke.
Speaker 1: When did you have the insight that all of these
Speaker 1: men that you've dated over the years somehow reminded you
Speaker 1: of your father?
Speaker 2: So this was just maybe five six years ago, Oh recently.
Speaker 2: So I have two therapists. I have a Semitic and
Speaker 2: then I have a traditional one, doctor Wexler now for
Speaker 2: a decade every week and ten years ago so I
Speaker 2: was still drinking. So when she would try and talk
Speaker 2: to me about I just she told me I wasn't
Speaker 2: having it. So none of it.
Speaker 1: So in those early years, you were just going from
Speaker 1: man after man who signed The quality of them resembled
Speaker 1: your absolutely the same chaos, betrayals, all of that over and.
Speaker 2: Like clockwork, yeah, okay, yeah, everything.
Speaker 1: It must have been hard there to start stop so
Speaker 1: many relationships that takes a toll on you too, and
Speaker 1: it kind of makes it sort of concrete that this
Speaker 1: is just how it is.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, so this is what it was.
Speaker 2: I could tell my body that when it was a
Speaker 2: nice guy, I was disgusted by them. Discussed literally so discussed,
Speaker 2: which just shows you how much I really loved myself,
Speaker 2: which was not a lot. Right, So because I didn't
Speaker 2: know that, I didn't know that, it was very foreign
Speaker 2: to me. The only thing that felt like home was
Speaker 2: these abusive whether it be emotionally being gas lit, and
Speaker 2: that's what I was attracting, and that's what got me going.
Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go back a little too to what
Speaker 1: was happening then. Yeah, when the abuse was happening in
Speaker 1: the relationship, I didn't like.
Speaker 2: The physical abuses. Okay, I just want to be clear
Speaker 2: with anyone listening. Obviously it's not something that I wanted.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no no. But when let's use the emotional abuse,
Speaker 1: because that's what's so common narcissistic relationships. When the emotionally
Speaker 1: abusive moments were happening, which I'm guessing were things like
Speaker 1: dismissiveness and criticism and mom jealousy and validation, jealousy, control, manipulation, gas, Like, yes,
Speaker 1: what was the story you were telling yourself at those times?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I don't think I was even aware
Speaker 2: back then. I don't think I was having that dialogue.
Speaker 1: So it was almost like this is just a relationship.
Speaker 2: I mean, I watched Pretty Woman when I was too young, obviously,
Speaker 2: but my nanny, who didn't speak English, she watched three movies.
Speaker 2: Well Dynasty wasn't a movie, but Dynasty, and I was
Speaker 2: watching this with her Pretty Woman and sound of Music.
Speaker 2: Sound of Music's more like it, but at like between
Speaker 2: ages three and six, like I shouldn't be trying to
Speaker 2: look like Julia Roberts, like an undressed like a hooker,
Speaker 2: and say, Cheryl, you know it was interesting. I started
Speaker 2: this YouTube channel during the pandemic and I went through
Speaker 2: all my mom's VHS tapes. For those of you that
Speaker 2: don't know what a VHS tape is, look it up.
Speaker 2: And I saw myself. This was insane, Okay. I saw
Speaker 2: my molester there having like Thanksgiving dinner with all of us,
Speaker 2: and how avoid and how nobody was paying any attention to,
Speaker 2: like how creepy this man was hovering over me, and
Speaker 2: you know the kids there. And then on top of
Speaker 2: it all, I saw myself cut to another scene Do
Speaker 2: I look? Pretty? Do I look? And I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my, this poor child and that was me. And
Speaker 2: I can tell that I was being influenced. And I
Speaker 2: do have to tell you that pretty Woman. I can
Speaker 2: recite it like I wrote the script, and it's just
Speaker 2: not a.
Speaker 1: Pretty woman is not okay. And that's maybe one day
Speaker 1: we'll do an episode on all the reasons pretty Woman
Speaker 1: is not okay.
Speaker 2: I seriously though, I still love it, but it's not
Speaker 2: okay at that age.
Speaker 1: Right, right, I don't know that it's okay at any
Speaker 1: age really to actually, you know, I mean when you
Speaker 1: really think about it, right, I think they tried to
Speaker 1: make it that what was the feminist line? Like one
Speaker 1: day the prince rescued her, but she rescued him first.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh no, honey, it's too late for that line.
Speaker 1: I think we have just we have done too many
Speaker 1: problematic things. You are not cleaning this film up with
Speaker 1: one little rescue line. So but I do think though
Speaker 1: that what you do bring to is this the sexualization.
Speaker 1: Say you were sexualized as a child and this wasn't
Speaker 1: being seen. I mean, I think that that is something
Speaker 1: we see in any of these sort of what we
Speaker 1: could call traumatogenic environments, especially where sexual abuse is happening,
Speaker 1: where it is this unawareness and this disconnection from the
Speaker 1: experience of the children, from the dynamics within the room.
Speaker 1: Everyone sort of so caught up in their own thing
Speaker 1: and their own shick and all of that. It was
Speaker 1: real hard for me to watch this.
Speaker 2: There was so many emotions going through my body from anger, resentment.
Speaker 2: I wanted to reach through the VHS tape the TV
Speaker 2: screw of my laptop and just be like shake everybody,
Speaker 2: like what don't you see it? This was an interesting thing.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I recommend it, because if you
Speaker 2: do do this, I have somebody with you that you trust.
Speaker 2: Because it was very It was like reliving it, but
Speaker 2: then it was healing mm hmmm, all at the same time.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it can be, because I think that
Speaker 1: these things can be. You can see it, you can
Speaker 1: understand what the influences where you could understand. You were
Speaker 1: too young to see it. You didn't make sense of
Speaker 1: that kind of a storyline, how it gets confused in
Speaker 1: a child's mind. So now you're going through this sort
Speaker 1: of series of bad relationships. They're beginning and they're ending.
Speaker 1: When these relationships would end, who was ending them there?
Speaker 2: Well, there's lots of ending and coming back together because
Speaker 2: I loved the reuniting.
Speaker 1: So sometimes it would be the same guy for a back.
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Especially this high school one.
Speaker 2: It was like and I mean to the point where
Speaker 2: he was like stalking me and I was like, uh,
Speaker 2: but I always had somebody ready for me to pick
Speaker 2: up the pieces, you know what I mean. Gale from relationship,
Speaker 2: I'm not kidding. I went from relationship to relationship. So
Speaker 2: I went from like this high school boyfriend straight to
Speaker 2: my last partner. There was never really a huge gap
Speaker 2: of transition for me, like right in a way spaced
Speaker 2: it out or I didn't have the strength to leave
Speaker 2: somebody until I had somebody else lined up. And that's
Speaker 2: that was the pattern.
Speaker 1: So the relationships became a place of soothing. They became
Speaker 1: right that you know, more of the numbing that you
Speaker 1: have no matter what, because you didn't have to simply
Speaker 1: be with yourself, right, That's what there from doing that,
Speaker 1: so I have a very full picture here. Okay, the
Speaker 1: relationships continue in this cycle. Stop, start, they come, they go, chaos, abuse,
Speaker 1: gas lighting. You're not seeing it. There's no part of
Speaker 1: you saying what am I doing? Okay? And that's very common, Yeah,
Speaker 1: very very common. There's nothing unusual about that.
Speaker 2: Well, the worst was like those silent treatments. Oh my god,
Speaker 2: that would kill me to the point where I actually
Speaker 2: it was interesting those like depending on how long the
Speaker 2: silent treatment went on, like if it was from my
Speaker 2: dance partner, who like I was there in New York
Speaker 2: with then moved from the barrier to New York, and
Speaker 2: I remember I never forget, like over Thanksgiving it was
Speaker 2: like he was gaslighting me and he wouldn't talk to
Speaker 2: me and didn't talk to me for like a week,
Speaker 2: and I would call my mom and cry and tell her.
Speaker 2: But when it comes to any other type of abuse
Speaker 2: like physical or mental, I never called my mom. It
Speaker 2: was just realizing this as I'm talking to you. Interesting,
Speaker 2: why do you think that was? Why do you think
Speaker 2: that that because it's silent treatment, that was like more
Speaker 2: painful than anything.
Speaker 1: Because that was an abandonment.
Speaker 2: Oh of course that was what my dad did.
Speaker 1: It was the loss of engaging.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt so alone. Yeah, I felt very I
Speaker 2: felt abandoned, period, point blank. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, the silent treatment is it's a common gambit
Speaker 1: in narcissistic relationships, especially once they realize it works. Right,
Speaker 1: It's very passive, aggressive, And what I'm about to say
Speaker 1: is going to sound very cynical even, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just even I'm surprised by the cynical. But they get
Speaker 1: a lot of bang for their buck on them, right,
Speaker 1: for no effort. And once they learn it works, they're
Speaker 1: going to keep doing it right because they're.
Speaker 2: Like, oh, meaning like I'm effected.
Speaker 1: You're getting a rise out of the other person's does
Speaker 1: that make sense?
Speaker 2: Yes? And control them. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And now the silent treatment isn't punitive for everyone, but
Speaker 1: for most anyone who has even a secure attachment, it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: But if you have an anxious attachment, it is like
Speaker 1: flaying a person alive. Yeah, because it's the ultimate. It's
Speaker 1: worse than abandonment because it is true abandonment. They're not
Speaker 1: communicating with you, They've not used to exist, right, that's
Speaker 1: the ultimate fear.
Speaker 2: Vers is when you're working with the person too, and
Speaker 2: then you're living in like a little box in Harlem
Speaker 2: and the only door separating the two of you is
Speaker 2: a bathroom door. And then wow, it was powerful and
Speaker 2: it got me every time, like I felt paralyzed. I
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever felt that much. I think pain
Speaker 2: or paralyzation since that time.
Speaker 1: Being stuck, being frozen, can't That actually is a sympathetic
Speaker 1: nervous system response. Right when we think of how you
Speaker 1: know the sympathetic nervous system is an animal, any mammal,
Speaker 1: it's in a human being, and it's fight, flight, freeze,
Speaker 1: and fawn. Those are the four.
Speaker 2: Eraphist that I'm addicted that I only know those feelings
Speaker 2: so still to this day.
Speaker 1: Well, it's a response when you think something catastrophics happening, right,
Speaker 1: not right or not. But see, the thing is the
Speaker 1: silent treatment. When we think about the sympathetic nervous system,
Speaker 1: it's the same reason why a zebra is able to
Speaker 1: run away from a lion. Right, everything gets mobilized, All
Speaker 1: systems shut down except the system that are going to
Speaker 1: make that zebra's legs move as fast as can be
Speaker 1: away from the lion. Once they're out of harm's way,
Speaker 1: they go right back to parasympathetic functioning and they graze,
Speaker 1: just chill. Right, So, a lion chasing the zebra is
Speaker 1: a true mortal threat. A person giving you the silent
Speaker 1: treatment is actually not a mortal threast, but your brain
Speaker 1: interprets it that way. But when the you keep turning
Speaker 1: the sympathetic nervous system on and off, on and off, freeze, freeze, freeze, freeze,
Speaker 1: there's all this weird in the box.
Speaker 2: Amen, sister, Amen, That's what it is.
Speaker 1: And to wear and tear. It's not as simple as
Speaker 1: like I'll just keep fight, fighting and freezing. No no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you don't want there's an opportunity to cause there.
Speaker 2: So is there a way now to get a little
Speaker 2: deeper on this? Is there a way to be addicted
Speaker 2: to it?
Speaker 1: To those responses? I don't know that you were addicted
Speaker 1: to the sympathetic.
Speaker 2: Response, like I only know that.
Speaker 1: I always use the word addiction very carefully when it
Speaker 1: comes to sort of these relational cycles, because it turns
Speaker 1: the person being harmed into an active actor participants.
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: And and so I always steer away from that because
Speaker 1: I think that languaging has been used to use a
Speaker 1: disease model to capture a person who's going through psychological manipulation.
Speaker 1: So that's but it's also not putting survivors in a
Speaker 1: passive role. But you only knew what you knew, and
Speaker 1: for you, the relief of tension that would come when
Speaker 1: the person would come back around was still the fantasy
Speaker 1: you held around the father, who was not going to leave,
Speaker 1: who was going to show up, who's going to come
Speaker 1: to Hong Kong, who was going to be there, who
Speaker 1: was going to be a decent human being at some
Speaker 1: level when you needed him to be a father? That
Speaker 1: men could be safe, but your templates for men across
Speaker 1: the board were unsafe. And even though you loved and
Speaker 1: cared about your stepfather, he brought danger into your life unwittingly.
Speaker 1: So you see what I'm saying. So it's like all
Speaker 1: of that became danger and so yes, then and every
Speaker 1: man and every man behaved in a way that was dangerous,
Speaker 1: that represented that right, and so the hypothesis kept coming.
Speaker 1: And then the safe men were disgusting, so you weren't
Speaker 1: interacting with them, right, it's not crazy, It actually kind
Speaker 1: of makes sense.
Speaker 2: No, it's not right, yeah, no, totally.
Speaker 1: It does.
Speaker 2: It helps with feeling more compassionate towards myself.
Speaker 1: So you said you haven't been in a relationship for
Speaker 1: a year and a half, Well, yes, divorce, okay's been single.
Speaker 1: So you got married. May I ask how long you
Speaker 1: were married? For?
Speaker 2: Two years?
Speaker 1: Two years? Okay? And how long were you together before
Speaker 1: the marriage?
Speaker 2: So we were together in the beginning when I first
Speaker 2: moved to LA I would say two thousand and seven,
Speaker 2: for a couple of years, broke up for ten years,
Speaker 2: reunited for a year and a half, got married.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, so it was on and out relationship
Speaker 1: and then you got married.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Did you also find yourself repeating some of your same
Speaker 1: patterns in this relationship?
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm not saying anything about that person, but yes,
Speaker 2: what you're asking about the similar patterns. Yes, absolutely, for sure.
Speaker 2: They looked very.
Speaker 1: Much alike your father and this person.
Speaker 2: So, I mean he would agree to if you heard this.
Speaker 1: So, so you have not had a relationship with an
Speaker 1: adult man, an intimate romantic relationship with an adult man
Speaker 1: that was ever healthy at this point. No, no, okay,
Speaker 1: all right, So do you have hope that you can yes,
Speaker 1: about to get myself healthy. Okay, yeah, got it all right.
Speaker 1: So it's not as though you've ruled that out, because Cheryl,
Speaker 1: there's people in your position will sometimes say I'm out,
Speaker 1: I fold, this is not my game, and then I'm
Speaker 1: not doing it. I'm going to be alone forever.
Speaker 2: Oh well, I can only live right now, right like
Speaker 2: I don't. I can't tell the future. However, I love
Speaker 2: to get married again, but less this is another thing.
Speaker 2: I have to work on it therapy. I go from
Speaker 2: like zero to a thousand, So of course I still
Speaker 2: believe in it. I mean, I don't know if I
Speaker 2: know the definition of a perfect relationship is, but I
Speaker 2: know that I will continue the pattern if I don't
Speaker 2: change myself.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, what do you think
Speaker 1: a healthy relationship looks like two individuals?
Speaker 2: That's very important because I thought that, uh, we were
Speaker 2: one here. Notebook doesn't help, so they should take that
Speaker 2: off the fucking sorry excuse me.
Speaker 1: Oh no, you can say, talk away the notebook. You
Speaker 1: mean the movie?
Speaker 2: The movie needs to go away? All these movies about love.
Speaker 1: We can need movies?
Speaker 2: Or is it dysfunctional? I think dysfunction is normal.
Speaker 1: So he was really stocky in the beginning of the
Speaker 1: relationship the notebook, Yeah, I heard that. You think like
Speaker 1: he jumped, he climbed up the ferris wheel, you see.
Speaker 1: Like I was like boundary violation. She's she's saying no.
Speaker 2: No, yes. I was like, why does that happen to me? No?
Speaker 1: No, no, Stocky, Stocky, Stocky, And they've romanticized, and like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep coming by, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: keep coming by, and you're about to braise someone else.
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep coming about to watch it again
Speaker 1: by keep coming by. I really should have healthy movie night.
Speaker 2: No, really, you should do like a.
Speaker 1: Screening and we'll come together and say, can we talk
Speaker 1: about why that was not helping?
Speaker 2: No, that was so attachment avoided attachment and psychopathic personality traits, Like,
Speaker 2: that's definitely what you should do.
Speaker 1: Well, I think what happens is it's an ends justify
Speaker 1: the means kind of thing, like oh, they were old
Speaker 1: together and they had the kids and they had this
Speaker 1: and then you know whatever, the health and the shower
Speaker 1: of sex and the swans and the water, But ahead
Speaker 1: of all of that was the stocky fair behavior. Right,
Speaker 1: she had a terrible mother.
Speaker 2: That's what I seriously I mean, it would get me
Speaker 2: every time that stockery behavior, like.
Speaker 1: Okay, so that was a note just no stalking. Some
Speaker 1: clims of Ferris Wale don't date that.
Speaker 2: It actually reminds me of how I basically in a
Speaker 2: weird way, the stocking from my ex was actually enticing.
Speaker 1: Okay, so it's good. And here's the thing. I think
Speaker 1: it's so important you say that out loud, righty, because
Speaker 1: there's absolutely no shame in saying that, because you're saying, like,
Speaker 1: this was love, that was your definition of love, because
Speaker 1: you know what it was. It was unmistakable, right. So
Speaker 1: it's like a volume button. If something's that volume ninety,
Speaker 1: you're gonna hear it, right, whereas anything more subtle that
Speaker 1: that's oh I don't know about that. But like, because
Speaker 1: of that, not being able to get that consistently, especially
Speaker 1: from your father, there was no ambiguity. Stalking is like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're into me, right, So it becomes this massive over correction.
Speaker 1: And so it's really important that you say that. You
Speaker 1: and I think for people to say, well, I don't
Speaker 1: want to say that entice me because then that makes
Speaker 1: me look bad. No, it doesn't. No, it helps you
Speaker 1: understand what was happening, and then the work becomes you know, unravel, Yeah, unpacking.
Speaker 1: Why that would have been enticing because many many people
Speaker 1: feel like they're like they must feel like they're crazy, honestly, Well, no,
Speaker 1: what a lot of people feel is that. And I
Speaker 1: get this is doctor Romney, Are you kidding me? Like
Speaker 1: I feel guilty, I feel dirty. I liked love bombing.
Speaker 1: I'm like, love bombing's great. If you could find a
Speaker 1: respectful that's the whole full court press. Baby, you're my everything, presence,
Speaker 1: dinners out take, you know, showing up a lot, texting
Speaker 1: you twenty five times a day. I can't stop thinking
Speaker 1: about you, right right, And so yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not My love language is not gifts, but it's definitely.
Speaker 1: You know what I mean, the intensities that the flowers
Speaker 1: the night out gotten me every time. Yep. And so
Speaker 1: somebody said, well, is there ever healthy love bombing? And
Speaker 1: I mean, if you could find a person in text
Speaker 1: who is nice, kind, respectful, all that disgusting stuff, right right,
Speaker 1: and don't love that bombing you tend they tend not
Speaker 1: to go together. Like a healthier person is going to
Speaker 1: have a little bit more of a like trust pace, right.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about the healthy relationships. Okay, so you've
Speaker 1: wonly given me two individuals.
Speaker 2: Two individuals. Okay, Trust for me is accountability. I've realized
Speaker 2: this recently that I can even have friends who don't
Speaker 2: hold themselves accountable. It's great, okay, supporting each other obviously
Speaker 2: as someone who is not jealous in that sense of
Speaker 2: your career or success, very secure attachment would be great.
Speaker 2: Wanting to evolve constantly, learn, grow, and patience and kind.
Speaker 2: Cute would help. I'm kidding, that's fine. And successful their
Speaker 2: own life. Successful meaning not just like the amount of
Speaker 2: money they have in their bank account, but successful like
Speaker 2: the confidence that they have from within. Yeah. Okay, so listener,
Speaker 2: a good listener.
Speaker 1: Great, Great, I.
Speaker 2: Mean I can go on all day.
Speaker 1: These are the things that make a healthy relationship. Two individuals,
Speaker 1: and by that I understand what you mean. Not two
Speaker 1: people are so and men, not like one. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: two people. There's a sense of separateness, but you know.
Speaker 2: All in like, there's no forty fifty in my eyes.
Speaker 1: Right, trust, there's trust, there's accountability. If the two people
Speaker 1: support each other, there's a sense of safety, growth, orientation,
Speaker 1: patient kind that you find them cute, these are things
Speaker 1: that describe a healthy person. Some of this could asking
Speaker 1: about relationship. What makes a healthy relationships?
Speaker 2: I think really though, for me, I think just because
Speaker 2: I only can talk based off my experience. But it
Speaker 2: is allowing for the other person to be their own person. Okay, right,
Speaker 2: that is a big thing for mer. I tend to
Speaker 2: get very consumed.
Speaker 1: Got it. Okay, so I got that.
Speaker 2: It's a person or a job. Right? Communication? Key?
Speaker 1: What does communication mean to you?
Speaker 2: Well? Responsive communication would help, meaning like, I'm also this weird,
Speaker 2: not weird. I'm very like to the second, you know,
Speaker 2: with time and so when someone says they're going to
Speaker 2: be there and they're not there at that time, with
Speaker 2: no phone call saying that they're going to be late,
Speaker 2: it really urks me. So then my brain starts to think,
Speaker 2: oh my god, they're cheating. Oh my god, like I
Speaker 2: fall down this rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: Oh so it's shit, which could and it's interesting you
Speaker 1: go there because you could take it. It's like they're
Speaker 1: they're actually not respectful of a standard that I put out.
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, no, no, which is what they're doing. And
Speaker 1: that is enough for it to be a problem. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: that's enough for it to be a problem. Okay, so
Speaker 1: I'm hearing so far that you've got here. Now we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about a fancy word, but it's a
Speaker 1: good fancy word. There's a term out there called inter subjectivity.
Speaker 1: It's used by a guy named Dan Jaw who's a therapist,
Speaker 1: just fantastic work in narcissistic relationships. But the concept of
Speaker 1: intersubjectivity is the idea that two people can be in
Speaker 1: a relationship and have their own experience and perceptions and
Speaker 1: simultaneously also recognize that the other person is having their
Speaker 1: own experience and perceptions.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of the opposite of gaslighting. Right. So
Speaker 1: simplest example, you go out to dinner with somebody and
Speaker 1: he says this was absolutely terrible, and you're like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, this was the best lasagna I've ever had.
Speaker 2: Two different things, right, yes, yes.
Speaker 1: And you don't say to him, so you're wrong, there's
Speaker 1: no way you're positive, or he couldn't turn to say
Speaker 1: there's no way your lasagna was good because my meal
Speaker 1: was bad. That would be in a great example of
Speaker 1: their intersubjective. It's an overly simple example, but it's that
Speaker 1: capacity to do that that's a core pillar here. And
Speaker 1: what you're talking about also though, is respecting boundaries and
Speaker 1: expecting boundaries.
Speaker 2: And also I think transparency it is very important.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, right, and that goes back to the trustingnibilities
Speaker 1: and so. But a lot of the stuff you're laying
Speaker 1: out here, interestingly, Cheryl, is very much related to stuff
Speaker 1: like trust boundaries.
Speaker 2: I think it's my number one right.
Speaker 1: It's understandable because that's all going back to that secure
Speaker 1: base kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: Safety is everything to people who've been through trauma.
Speaker 2: Not to everybody.
Speaker 1: I think that for everybody in general, they already have
Speaker 1: that internalized sense of it, so they sort of feel that.
Speaker 2: They expect that that is.
Speaker 1: There's a risk in that too, though, because you know,
Speaker 1: if something terrible happens to them, they may go through
Speaker 1: the world as though it's a little bit safer. I'll
Speaker 1: put it this way to you. I am a trauma
Speaker 1: survivor too, not nearly at the level you have, but
Speaker 1: definitely a trauma survivor, and I definitely go through work
Speaker 1: a little bit like military. You know, yes, hypervigilance, supervigilant.
Speaker 2: No, it's never it's not a good I mean, if
Speaker 2: you're a label.
Speaker 1: It's not good.
Speaker 2: I am so, and I don't. I think the ballroom
Speaker 2: community the competitive because we dance all in the dance
Speaker 2: floor together. So my hypervigilance is quite scary.
Speaker 1: What you mean by scary because that to me, it's
Speaker 1: a normal trauma response.
Speaker 2: But I'm too vigilant to where like it's hard for
Speaker 2: me and I don't know if there's such a thing,
Speaker 2: but like I am too aware of my well.
Speaker 1: It's exhausting. Paranoia almost well, I think that it's exhausting
Speaker 1: if it's paranoia, if you think it's resulting in people
Speaker 1: coming at you or harming you, I used to Okay,
Speaker 1: so that's come down a little bit a lot of it.
Speaker 1: Then it's the idea is that, But hypervigilance is exhausting.
Speaker 1: It is so right you almost want to view it
Speaker 1: as when you have too many apps and stuff open
Speaker 1: on your phone, your phone's running slow. That's what hypervigilance does.
Speaker 1: It just slows you down and it completely depletes your
Speaker 1: bandwidth because you're like, and there's a thing over there,
Speaker 1: and there's a sound over there, and there's a this,
Speaker 1: and there's a that, and it SAPs our capacity to
Speaker 1: be mindful right.
Speaker 2: And since my sobriety it's been even stronger.
Speaker 1: My conversation will continue after this break, so that talk
Speaker 1: about your journey of sobriety, because you had talked about
Speaker 1: how you are sober. So around twenty one year, I
Speaker 1: did first drink, and then what happened.
Speaker 2: And then I used it. When I first started drinking,
Speaker 2: it was mainly to calm my anxiety down from paparazzi.
Speaker 2: It was pretty bad when I first came here in
Speaker 2: two thousand and six. My dance partner, just to give
Speaker 2: you some perspective, here was Nicko Lachet's little brother, Drew Liche.
Speaker 2: This is during the height of him and Jessica Simpson's course.
Speaker 2: So I come here from New York at the time,
Speaker 2: and I had no voice, like, I had no opinion,
Speaker 2: didn't know what my favorite color was, and then all
Speaker 2: of a sudden, people wanting to ask me a question
Speaker 2: when I was so used to taking the back seat
Speaker 2: and being a follower not a leader. Was an adjustment.
Speaker 2: So my anxiety was through the roof, though I couldn't
Speaker 2: even put words to it at that moment. So alcohol helped,
Speaker 2: but I was a functioning alcoholic, so no one knew
Speaker 2: that I was even I mean, I was normal in
Speaker 2: their eyes.
Speaker 1: So you didn't have impairments at work. It's not like
Speaker 1: you miss rehearsals or never shows or anything like that. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: but it was the drinking got out of control.
Speaker 2: It got out of control to the point where I
Speaker 2: was drinking seven days a week. Now, it never when
Speaker 2: people ask me what my rock bottom is, It's almost
Speaker 2: like my rock bottom was the fact that I was
Speaker 2: at my height of success when I was drinking, and
Speaker 2: that I never really my rock bottom if you were
Speaker 2: to think about it now for me, at least as
Speaker 2: a sober person trying to stay sober one day at
Speaker 2: a time. If I think back, like when big things happen,
Speaker 2: like my divorce or you know, leaving Dancing with the Stars,
Speaker 2: when something mildly trauma traumatic, I guess because I don't
Speaker 2: know if you want to, I don't know if you
Speaker 2: don't measure it. But if anything traumatic like that, or
Speaker 2: anything that changes in my life that's drastic, I do
Speaker 2: at times think about drinking, and then I think about,
Speaker 2: you know what, fuck it. I was the most successful
Speaker 2: when I was drinking anyway, so that to me is
Speaker 2: a rock bottom. It's not necessarily checking into rehab.
Speaker 1: Right, right, So do you got sober on your own?
Speaker 1: You did twell step, Yes, I'm still. I'm still very much.
Speaker 1: I do have a sponsor. And to say it's not
Speaker 1: a battle it would be a lie. But I quit
Speaker 1: basically for vanity reasons, because I started as soon as
Speaker 1: my dad died. I came home, had a drink and
Speaker 1: I just I busted out into hives. And this was
Speaker 1: right before my engagement party. And so I decided to
Speaker 1: stop because of vanity reasons. Okay, well any important storm,
Speaker 1: I would guess though those hives were probably famous. Yes, right,
Speaker 1: you co located them with the alcohol, so my body
Speaker 1: whatever it is, Yes, yes, I think that reality things
Speaker 1: were happening at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I didn't know how to feel it.
Speaker 1: So now you have to cope without the alcohol. You've
Speaker 1: taken one form of numbing away, but you've acknowledged that
Speaker 1: another form of numbing is the You've also taken two
Speaker 1: forms of numbing away, the chaotic relationships and the men
Speaker 1: and the alcohol. You've now turned to work. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you know and that you know or staying busy. That
Speaker 1: can be a tricky pattern. But now you've been single
Speaker 1: for a year and a half.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I tell people that people who are coming out of
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship, and in you, your case has been a
Speaker 1: series of many narcissistic relationships, right is that I tell them?
Speaker 1: I tell me you got to do doctor Romney's twelve
Speaker 1: month detalks. And by that, I mean you got to
Speaker 1: spend a year. Can it be more all alone? It
Speaker 1: can be absolutely more than twelve months. And people say,
Speaker 1: what are you about? What's the twelve months of it all?
Speaker 1: And I said, in that year, you have to encounter
Speaker 1: every single anniversary, date, thing, issue, street, corner, restaurant, you
Speaker 1: fought alone? Right and so? And holidays are tough for people, right, Holidays, birthdays,
Speaker 1: dates that something can happened in your relationship that had
Speaker 1: some meaning, and press take them all back, and you
Speaker 1: need a year. A lot can.
Speaker 2: Happen in a year. It is more than a year.
Speaker 1: And I think more than a year is into bad thing.
Speaker 1: But a minimum of year. And people are saying, are
Speaker 1: you kidding me? A year? And I said I know
Speaker 1: that too.
Speaker 2: I was like, if you told me this years ago,
Speaker 2: I'd be like, I'm not talking to you.
Speaker 1: No, And a lot of people have said that, like
Speaker 1: saying no sex, no touch. I'm like, yep, and you will.
Speaker 1: I mean, even if it's a way of finding self,
Speaker 1: embrace whatever that looks like to you. But that coming
Speaker 1: back to yourself because healing from narcissistic abuse, the narcissistic relationships,
Speaker 1: the key pillar of that is coming into yourself, allowing
Speaker 1: yourself to be an individual outside of the shadows of normal.
Speaker 1: What I'm doing not only absolutely normal. I'm signing off
Speaker 1: on it, and I don't sign off on much, so
Speaker 1: it's yes, I mean, it is that twelves.
Speaker 2: I'm not even interested.
Speaker 1: Good like I don't because that's great.
Speaker 2: Is it sixty years then since I've dated maybe it's
Speaker 2: a total of six to seven narcissism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, you might. You might need longer than
Speaker 1: you my dear, after all, I'm therapist, But it's it's
Speaker 1: a coming back into oneself. And I don't believe a
Speaker 1: person can go on that journey with somebody else. Right,
Speaker 1: I say to people, you don't even know what thermostat
Speaker 1: setting you like, because it was always what they wanted. Right,
Speaker 1: You don't know, you don't know a favorite color, I
Speaker 1: don't know anything. So you need to go out there
Speaker 1: and have all that. What pizza toppings do you like?
Speaker 1: Do you even like pizza? Do you want the thermostat
Speaker 1: at sixty eight or sixty two or seventy five? What
Speaker 1: kinds of movies do you like?
Speaker 2: You know what's actually I'm the part of myself. I
Speaker 2: can answer all your questions.
Speaker 1: See that's great. And a lot of folks will say
Speaker 1: they'll struggle, they'll say, I know what that is, but well,
Speaker 1: and they'll recognize they're still using the narcissistic person as
Speaker 1: a frame of reference. So that's really what coming out
Speaker 1: of it is.
Speaker 2: Like I said, we could just do a ten parter
Speaker 2: to this. This could be a whole season.
Speaker 1: Just Cheryl and doctor Romeny. Great, I'll do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great, exactly, super No, But this is all
Speaker 2: very helpful. I love I just love this all. I
Speaker 2: love it. Though it's hard to hear sometimes, but it
Speaker 2: just helps.
Speaker 1: What was the hardest thing you learned about narcissistic relationships
Speaker 1: that you had to take in that was necessary for
Speaker 1: you to push through your healing.
Speaker 2: I think what was hard for me, first of all
Speaker 2: was to wrap my head around the fact that I
Speaker 2: was only attracted to them. However, it helps to continue
Speaker 2: to educate myself by, for example, listening to your podcast
Speaker 2: and doing more research, and it helps to then find
Speaker 2: the compassion because when you really hear repeatedly over and
Speaker 2: over again that it has something to do with the survivor,
Speaker 2: you can breathe. It takes a load off.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm actually going to push back on this idea.
Speaker 1: You say, well, I've always been attracted to narcissists. I
Speaker 1: don't actually think that's true. I think that that was
Speaker 1: my true. You were attempting to work through a pattern. Right,
Speaker 1: If you're to bring people down to some brass tacks,
Speaker 1: especially trauma survivors, it's the seeking not only of safety,
Speaker 1: but of attachment and of love and of connection. Right.
Speaker 1: What you were trying to do was healthy. You were
Speaker 1: trying to bring connection into your life, love, attachment, all
Speaker 1: of that. Your template was skewo and damage and harmed
Speaker 1: by trauma right at a young age, at a young age.
Speaker 1: And so then what ends up happening is is that
Speaker 1: there is a the up and down and the chaos
Speaker 1: of those relationships. Is you don't you're not registering them
Speaker 1: as a problem, right, Right, And keep in mind to Cheryl,
Speaker 1: I think one of the challenges of narcissistic relationships is
Speaker 1: it's not terrible every day. The good days were really good, really.
Speaker 2: Good, Yeah, And that's what I would hold on to, right.
Speaker 1: And you'd hold on to that and then into huge narratives.
Speaker 1: Can that's why the make up and break up with
Speaker 1: some right obviously, then you got to have it all
Speaker 1: again and have it all again. And so I think
Speaker 1: that this idea of the narcissistic person is having horns
Speaker 1: and a forked tail and all of that is nonsense.
Speaker 1: These are incredibly charming, charismatic, fun interesting period is definitely yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean that's that's They're very compelling, and so be
Speaker 1: hard on anyone to be hard on themselves for saying
Speaker 1: I was drawn to someone who's really interesting, smart and compelling.
Speaker 1: That's a normal want. It's the also giving yourself permission
Speaker 1: to say that might have all been good, but this
Speaker 1: is not healthy. So I got to disengage from that.
Speaker 1: For you, that disengagement was never going to happen, because
Speaker 1: that was still working through this other kind of a cycle.
Speaker 1: Doctor Jennifer Fry, she talks about this thing called betrayal
Speaker 1: blindness and how when we're being betrayed. You don't see it,
Speaker 1: you don't acknowledge it, you almost don't register it. And
Speaker 1: when you don't do that, the relationship can continue.
Speaker 2: Right, And is it because you're avoiding to see it
Speaker 2: or you.
Speaker 1: Just don't see it's not safe to see it. It
Speaker 1: means you're not going to be able to maintain attachment,
Speaker 1: connection and love, like you'll lose something too important. Right,
Speaker 1: You've had to learn to do that since you were
Speaker 1: so small, Right, seeing that having sex through a door,
Speaker 1: having been abused, and in fact, interestingly in that case,
Speaker 1: you were willing to acknowledge what it was, which was
Speaker 1: actually quite remarkable. But you know, in the sense of
Speaker 1: you testified in that case because not everyone you know,
Speaker 1: but yes, not everyone testified. But then in these other
Speaker 1: relationships in adulthood, you know, treating me badly, cheating on me,
Speaker 1: whatever they're doing, it's like whosh. In fact, you use
Speaker 1: this beautiful analogy, but just whoshes away. And when it
Speaker 1: wishes away, you can stay in the relationship. But the
Speaker 1: problem is that comes with an opportunity cost, as you
Speaker 1: kind of just whishing all this and rubbing all that
Speaker 1: stuff away, like that's not a thing or no, that's
Speaker 1: a thing.
Speaker 2: You just like being blind, being literally what she calls.
Speaker 1: Betrayal blind, that's how she calls it, but.
Speaker 2: She refers to it as it away, but like protecting.
Speaker 1: Those betrayals, like okay, yeah, we're good, we're good, right.
Speaker 1: The problem is is that we're good, it's not really
Speaker 1: because this it's all piling up, and as it piles up,
Speaker 1: you're feeling anxious, you're feeling sad, you're feeling a sense
Speaker 1: of despair, you're drinking, you're feeling worthless. So all this
Speaker 1: unhealthy stuff is coming up behind it, but you keep
Speaker 1: having that not acknowledging, not acknowledging, not acknowledg JA And
Speaker 1: then one day you acknowledge in each of those relationships.
Speaker 1: So six seven relationships, something happened and like you said,
Speaker 1: you'd quickly pivot into a new relationship, but something ended it.
Speaker 1: Maybe you kind of saw it, but it seems like now,
Speaker 1: after all you've been through being in therapy, yeah, you
Speaker 1: are now able to see, oh that person cheated on me,
Speaker 1: that person mistreated me.
Speaker 2: And you can't see it, yes, right, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then you can see it.
Speaker 2: No, And but it was interesting the very first physical
Speaker 2: abusive relationship was pretty bad that and then it was
Speaker 2: interesting how I was blind to seeing like the welts
Speaker 2: on my legs and that's it.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not acknowledged, I'm not processing it.
Speaker 2: But now I'm so sensitive to any type of emotional
Speaker 2: abuse and let alone, wouldn't they person wouldn't even dare
Speaker 2: to touch me. But I maybe it's an overreaction, but
Speaker 2: I don't think it is. It's just, you know, for me,
Speaker 2: it's a boundary that you just don't cross, and that's great,
Speaker 2: and whether whatever, and right away it's a red flag.
Speaker 2: So then I leave like it's just like you're done
Speaker 2: in two seconds.
Speaker 1: So the last few questions, Sure, okay, you've worked on
Speaker 1: your mental health, you've worked through a lot of your trauma,
Speaker 1: you're maintaining sobriety. How is all of that going for you,
Speaker 1: especially in light of your you've gone through some major
Speaker 1: relationship changes and you know, and leaving Dancing with the Stars,
Speaker 1: these are two big changes for you. Yes, okay, So
Speaker 1: how do you balance you know, all of the healing
Speaker 1: against these two major transitions.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's separate, Okay, I think that the
Speaker 2: reason why I did leave both situations you just mentioned
Speaker 2: is because of the fact that I'm healing, and I
Speaker 2: think that it works hand in hand. Yes it does,
Speaker 2: but it's scary as shit. And I'm not going to
Speaker 2: say that my sobriety has been easy and that I'm healed,
Speaker 2: because it's it's going to be a lifelong battle and
Speaker 2: amazingness sometimes and not so amazing sometimes, and I just
Speaker 2: my job is just to take this life one day
Speaker 2: at a time.
Speaker 1: Well, it is a lifelong battle, and I think that
Speaker 1: that's the reality of it, that there will be those
Speaker 1: dark knights of the city. It's not a battle, I
Speaker 1: guess because the journey, it's a process.
Speaker 2: It is and it's like it's heaviest shit and it's exhausting,
Speaker 2: But there's more days of not feeling like that than
Speaker 2: if I were just a wing it.
Speaker 1: Yeah life, Yeah, that's great, I mean, and that's progress.
Speaker 1: And now what I hear that's so promising is that
Speaker 1: you acknowledge what happened. Right, if we talk to you
Speaker 1: like you said nine years ago, you wouldn't even have
Speaker 1: been like what and.
Speaker 2: And they've been defensive about everything right.
Speaker 1: And then, and that just simply means you weren't in
Speaker 1: that moment of readiness, just like you had with your therapist,
Speaker 1: she'd bring it up. You're like, no, thank you, And
Speaker 1: for any of us who are therapist like, okay, not.
Speaker 1: I think there's certain things I'm still not ready to
Speaker 1: talk about and you'll likely right. You know, you'll get there.
Speaker 1: So how do you feel about getting into a new relationship?
Speaker 1: Not not okay. So that's me, myself and my friends,
Speaker 1: and you're dark. I love that, okay, and.
Speaker 2: I am just currently. Look, there's moments of feeling lonely,
Speaker 2: but I'm more alone than lonely. I'm not lonely. That's
Speaker 2: a big I actually crave being alone now, and I
Speaker 2: guess I'm not for small talk anymore. Like there's a
Speaker 2: lot of things that I'm learning about myself becomes a
Speaker 2: very small, tiny little group of people. Great. Since I
Speaker 2: got sober, my whole everything's changed. But also as hard
Speaker 2: as I have been curious to work, a lot's changed.
Speaker 2: And I'm proud of myself and I don't think I
Speaker 2: could have ever said that.
Speaker 1: Which is great because I think that what you're saying, though,
Speaker 1: is that you're able to in being alone you feel safe,
Speaker 1: and that's.
Speaker 2: A big feeling.
Speaker 1: Yes, right, and there was a time when you didn't
Speaker 1: feel sw when you were alone. That's a huge sort
Speaker 1: of a transitional Yeah, you know, so you're right, which
Speaker 1: is really really great. You're also talking about discernment. You
Speaker 1: have a small group of friends. That is about discernment
Speaker 1: that not anyone can get through the gate. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: that's a big deal for survivors.
Speaker 2: Right, boundaries in general.
Speaker 1: Yes, boundaries jail. But say that again. You said you're
Speaker 1: proud of yourself.
Speaker 2: No, I am really proud of myself. I love myself
Speaker 2: like I actually do. And the more I continue to
Speaker 2: make these decisions, whether they be big, smaller, or however
Speaker 2: you want to measure it, it's it had to be
Speaker 2: done in order for me to continue on this path
Speaker 2: of healing. Because if I continued in any type of
Speaker 2: relationship or workplace with feeling like I'm not being respected
Speaker 2: or treated the way I should be, I'm leaving.
Speaker 1: Which is again we're back to discernment, which is a
Speaker 1: huge part of healing from these relationships. And I have
Speaker 1: to say, listen, nobody else can do sixth grade for you. Right,
Speaker 1: you got to go through the pain of all of
Speaker 1: algebra and whatever you've got to do in sixth grade.
Speaker 1: It's the same thing with this. I think that when
Speaker 1: a person can get through this, they can see it.
Speaker 1: They have the supports, they have therapy, they have friends,
Speaker 1: they have activities that they love to do. I love
Speaker 1: to dimond pain, you know, perfect diamond pain or diamond painting,
Speaker 1: arts and crafts, which is great. You have your pup,
Speaker 1: you have all those things. Is all I have to
Speaker 1: tell you. One thing I don't know that I'm going
Speaker 1: to ever be to do is my fantasy has always
Speaker 1: been I could help people get ahead of it. I
Speaker 1: could teach people how to identify these patterns and stop
Speaker 1: them from ever getting into the first place. I'm not
Speaker 1: seeing that happen. You know, most people say, anyone who
Speaker 1: hasn't been through it, they are no interest in what
Speaker 1: I have to say. And I hate to say it,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, everybody's gonna go's gonna come by this
Speaker 1: bus stop soon enough, so don't you worry about that?
Speaker 1: And you don't. Yeah, it's almost like telling a teenager,
Speaker 1: don't do this, don't do this. You have to just
Speaker 1: hope that I call it sort of harm reduction. At least,
Speaker 1: How can we make your fall as soft as possible,
Speaker 1: because you're going to fall, kind of going to make
Speaker 1: them a stair so you know it's white.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's gonna be you're falling. Your story is.
Speaker 1: Amazing because you've been through it and you are so
Speaker 1: self reflective on what happened and how it happened and
Speaker 1: even the parts of it that were enticing, and you
Speaker 1: own it and you know you've come to this place.
Speaker 1: I don't think you could come to this place without
Speaker 1: in some ways sat walking through some of these steps.
Speaker 2: And this is actually a really big deal. I don't cry,
Speaker 2: but like I'm trying just to feel and so thank you.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. You don't know how many people need to
Speaker 1: hear this, because it's really it's it's remarkable when I
Speaker 1: hear someone come all the way you came.
Speaker 2: So thank you for everything you do.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm so happy, op I think I'll touch more
Speaker 1: cynical than darling Oprah, but I think that you know what,
Speaker 1: we need a cynical Oprah in that's the world order.
Speaker 2: I mean, Asian.
Speaker 1: We got it. And you know what, there's more people
Speaker 1: in Asia than anywhere else, so we've got the viewers.
Speaker 1: That's what I'm your sister, and you are too, and
Speaker 1: I can't dance a step, so maybe one day you
Speaker 1: can teach me. I will, that's right, and then I
Speaker 1: can keep teaching you about as free sessions.
Speaker 2: We're good tea any day.
Speaker 1: Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Cheryl. First,
Speaker 1: people often think that finding love is the ultimate sign
Speaker 1: of success and healing. However, for many people, it actually
Speaker 1: may be a period of solitude. Cheryl's story shows us
Speaker 1: that getting to know who you are outside of a
Speaker 1: relationship is the true summit of healing. Your process might
Speaker 1: not look like everyone else's, and that's okay. In our
Speaker 1: next takeaway, Cheryl talked about stalking being enticing. Now, what
Speaker 1: she's calling stalking may be that obsessive, intrusive, unrelenting interest,
Speaker 1: the constant checking in, or the incessant need to pull
Speaker 1: someone back into a relationship. Cheryl's feelings are common. As
Speaker 1: a psychologist, I've seen many people shamed for admitting that
Speaker 1: they found this behavior appealing. For people like Cheryl who
Speaker 1: have acknowledged attachment issues, this intense interest can feel like
Speaker 1: an antidote to the fear of a band and create
Speaker 1: a false sense of security. But unfortunately will lead to
Speaker 1: a very unhealthy and toxic relationship. In this next takeaway,
Speaker 1: Cheryl found that understanding attachment styles was very helpful. Understanding
Speaker 1: attachment behaviors means going back to early childhood. Remember, children
Speaker 1: need attachment to survive, but if there are early disruptions
Speaker 1: in these attachments that will have implications for our adult relationships.
Speaker 1: There are believed to be four types of adult attachment styles.
Speaker 1: The first is secure. These are folks who are able
Speaker 1: to make mutual, safe, and sustained relationships, are not preoccupied
Speaker 1: with being abandoned or with rejection while they are in
Speaker 1: relationships and are comfortable with closeness. The second is the
Speaker 1: avoidant attachment style, which looks like someone who has not
Speaker 1: comfort with being or getting close and may feel that
Speaker 1: they don't need their partner. People with this attachment style
Speaker 1: may pull away when people try to get close. With
Speaker 1: the third style the anxious attachment style. This is someone
Speaker 1: who feels insecure about close relationships even as they want
Speaker 1: these relationships. There can be a real fear of abandonment
Speaker 1: or rejection and a belief that they overwhelm partners with
Speaker 1: their needs for closeness. And finally, There's also the anxious
Speaker 1: avoidant mix, where people are not only not comfortable with
Speaker 1: close relationships, but they are also anxious about the relationship,
Speaker 1: so trust and a fear of getting close to a
Speaker 1: partner are issues. It can be useful to know your
Speaker 1: attachment style as well as your partners if you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship, because it can give you insight about how
Speaker 1: you move through relationships and the cycles you get stuck into.
Speaker 1: Having a history of narcissistic parents or early trauma can
Speaker 1: definitely put a person at risk for anxious, avoidant or
Speaker 1: anxious avoidant attachment styles, and having an anxious or an
Speaker 1: avoidant anxious attachment style can also put you at risk
Speaker 1: for getting stuck in unhealthy, antagonistic, and narcissistic relationship cycles.
Speaker 1: You aren't doomed, and therapy can be an important place
Speaker 1: to explore these patterns within yourself and establish secure attachment
Speaker 1: skills you can take into close relationships. In our show notes,
Speaker 1: you'll find a quiz that can help you determine your
Speaker 1: attachment style. In this next takeaway, Cheryl shared that for
Speaker 1: a while, healthy people who could offer her a healthy
Speaker 1: relationship disgusted her, and that is not unusual especially if
Speaker 1: someone is prone to trauma bonding and has a relationship
Speaker 1: template that love is rejection and chaos and invalidation and
Speaker 1: of actually finding comfort in the breakup makeup union cycles.
Speaker 1: It makes sense and it is part of what she
Speaker 1: observed at a young age, but we are not defined
Speaker 1: by our histories. It does take work to make the
Speaker 1: transition to experiencing these less volatile and chaotic relationships as satisfying,
Speaker 1: and that work often has to be done while we
Speaker 1: are not in a relationship and through psychotherapy. And for
Speaker 1: our last takeaway, Cheryl shared that she is single now
Speaker 1: and has been for over a year after an adult
Speaker 1: life of only being in relationships. Solitude is an essential
Speaker 1: part of healing from narcissistic relationships. And I wasn't kidding
Speaker 1: when I talked about a twelve month detox, a period
Speaker 1: of time when you are out of a romantic relationship
Speaker 1: and learning about yourself and learning how to be with
Speaker 1: yourself without a relationship, to become familiar with who you
Speaker 1: are without having to shape yourself to what someone else
Speaker 1: needs you to be. This development of identity, autonomy, and
Speaker 1: sense of self can be stolen if you have been
Speaker 1: in NonStop narcissistic relationships from a young age and spending
Speaker 1: time on your own, overwhelming as it may feel, is
Speaker 1: essential to healing. Relationships can be a place to hide,
Speaker 1: numb and not do the work of becoming our authentic selves.
Speaker 1: It's a chance for your nervous system to take a
Speaker 1: rest and for you to be able to focus on
Speaker 1: your emotions and your whole self.