WEBVTT - Breaking Traumatic Cycles with Cheryl Burke 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.960 You know Cheryl Burke from her twenty six seasons on 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:08.119 Dancing with the Stars. But behind the rhinestones and glam, 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:13.160 Cheryl's life was filled with trauma, addiction, and abandonment. All 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:17.319 of this has profoundly affected her life. Cheryl says she's 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.560 never had a healthy romantic relationship. On this powerful episode 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.439 of Navigating Narcissism, Cheryl and I explore the roots of 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:31.080 the painful, traumatic, and difficult life she's endured, what she's 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:35.320 learned about herself, and how a conversation with me years 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:40.000 ago led to a significant revelation about her own father. 0:00:40.960 --> 0:00:45.640 From Red Table Talk Podcasts and iHeartMedia, I'm Doctor Romney 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:51.600 and this is Navigating Narcissism. This podcast should not be 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.000 used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:00:55.560 --> 0:01:00.480 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:01:00.760 --> 0:01:05.160 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:11.360 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:17.200 discussed on this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:21.240 be triggering to some people. The views and opinions expressed 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:25.680 are solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.840 in the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of 0:01:28.920 --> 0:01:34.240 Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia or their employees. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:35.640 Share. 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.000 Oh yes, you and I actually met a few years 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:43.160 ago when I was on your podcast and you talk 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:47.360 to me about narcissism right and been a foreshadow. You said, oh, 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.280 you should have your podcast. Yeah I didn't, and here 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:52.640 we are an even better. You're a guest who knew 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:54.040 I was psychic, So thank you. 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:56.520 Of course I want you to know how much you 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.560 have affected my life in a way that you probably 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:01.080 don't know. But when you we were on the podcast, 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:04.000 we did talk about my real father who has passed, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:08.399 and you mentioned how the qualities of a narcissist, right, 0:02:08.520 --> 0:02:12.560 and it really put everything into perspective for me, and 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:16.120 in a weird way, I was able to not necessarily 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:20.000 validate his actions or anything, but to at least be 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:22.919 able to label it in a way and have some 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.079 sort of piece as to Okay, so my father was 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:30.200 a narcissist and that was a huge revelation. So thank you. Well. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.120 I appreciate that so much. I think having a frame 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.880 for something sometimes it's even just about lifting some of 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.080 that self blame and recognizing that it's a structural thing 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.800 that was simply going to happen to anyone who happens 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:46.000 to be in the position you were in as his daughter, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.280 and it lifts us out of the story. You were 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.280 still hurt by it, you were still affected by it. 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.679 None of that is taken away, but it's a whole 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.079 other level when you feel at all that you're partly 0:02:56.120 --> 0:02:58.680 responsible for it, right, And that's the piece that the 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.799 framework helps with. What amazing about you is how much 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.320 candor you bring when you share your stories and your experiences, 0:03:06.680 --> 0:03:09.680 And it is so important because people do see you 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:12.800 as a performer. People almost project a lot of stuff 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:16.080 onto you. And when you stop being the person on 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.480 the screen, the dancer, and you show your humanity but 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:25.160 also what you've been through with such vulnerability, you give 0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:28.000 permission to millions of other people to lift some of 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.240 the shame off of themselves. So I always think it's 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.680 powerful when somebody who has a public platform does that 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.320 kind of open sharing. I don't think people quite understand 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.680 what an impact that has, So I would say that 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:42.000 on behalf of many survivors, thank you so much, and 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.840 you've shared some really profound and painful experiences from experiencing 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:50.960 sexual abuse, as a child, to even a journey of sobriety. 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.000 So all of this is the kinds of things people 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:54.520 grapple with but don't talk about. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:57.680 Thanks for creating an amazing outlet and resource for people, 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.320 because this is very important. I heard you say recently 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:03.880 that though it may seem like we're going through this 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:06.680 as a collective of being able to talk about our traumas, 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:10.080 at the same time, we're not, you know, and on 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.080 top of it all because of you know, social media. 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.520 There's amazing things about it, but there's also the negative 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:17.400 things about it, which is people feeling like they have 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:21.000 the right to judge you for being vulnerable, and to 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.680 say that I don't get affected by it to this 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:26.359 day would be a lie. I'm already being vulnerable, and 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:27.880 then on top of it, I'm being question as to 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.159 why I'm being vulnerable or I'm over sharing. So thank 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.840 you for educating and continuing to have these uncomfortable conversations. 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:37.839 Well, yeah, I do appreciate that, and I agree with you. 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:40.920 I think that we often are We're open to these 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.839 stories almost only to the point where sort of we 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.880 learn the information, but we don't want to hear the 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:48.240 emotion and what it does to the person. You know, 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.840 it's always like what I call sort of trauma storytelling 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.040 that we're just we want to hear the terrible thing 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:55.800 that happened. But that's a tiny top of an iceberg. 0:04:56.000 --> 0:04:58.920 The rest of it is how it's shaped a person 0:04:59.120 --> 0:05:01.120 and how it affects how they go through the world 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.040 and how they've had to carry that burden and how 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:06.360 they ultimately put some of that down and grow and 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.760 heal and sometimes have setbacks. That really is where the 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:11.839 focus needs to be. But I think we get so 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.240 caught up in the tell me what happened, Okay, now 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:17.919 I'm done, Yeah, and that actually yeah, not believe in 0:05:18.880 --> 0:05:20.960 or when you bring the emotion in people, I go, 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:22.960 that's enough, we've heard. We don't want to hear your 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.840 raw emotion. And so that's definitely what this is really 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.400 a space about survivors, and I think all of these 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:32.640 stories that come up, they're much more perpetrator focus. We're 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.440 so curious about people who do bad things, right, But 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:38.039 what we don't really ever unpack is what happens to 0:05:38.120 --> 0:05:41.560 the person who experience to the bad things. And it 0:05:41.640 --> 0:05:45.480 is remarkable to me how uninterested we've historically been or. 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.280 Who gets then almost made out to be the perpetrator. 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.520 That's actually something, interestingly Churel we talked about with an 0:05:51.560 --> 0:05:54.520 expert of ours, doctor Fried, who developed a model of 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:59.679 that called DARVO. DARVO is an acronym developed by doctor 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:05.599 Jen for Fried and stands for deny, attack and reverse 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:10.279 victim and offender. It is the way manipulative and abusive 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:14.440 people respond to accusations. I like to think of it 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:19.080 as supercharged gaslighting. When you face up to an abuser 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.120 about their behavior, they will deny it, attack you for 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.000 calling them out, and then flip to behaving like the 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.960 victim and shaping the narrative as though you are harming them. 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:34.279 It can leave many people in abusive relationships feeling as 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:37.839 though they are the ones who have done something wrong. 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.680 I'll never forget I got sexually molested when I was 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.680 a little girl, and I testified against him in court 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:48.600 when I was like nine years old. And I remember 0:06:48.760 --> 0:06:52.080 even that time as if it was yesterday. I just 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.000 felt I was here sitting in front of the perpetrator 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:57.320 right and it wasn't just me, it was quite a 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.440 few people. They wouldn't let my mom with me inside 0:07:00.440 --> 0:07:02.840 the court, and I will never forget feeling like I 0:07:02.880 --> 0:07:05.279 was doing something wrong, like I was lying. That's I 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:09.520 would say, the start of not necessarily trusting myself, because 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.720 in a way it was a way of grooming. This 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:14.120 man did a great job of doing that, Like it 0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:16.760 wasn't physical pain. And it was to the point where 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:19.600 I started questioning myself, likes to did he do anything 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:21.760 bad because he never hurt me. And then it didn't 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.800 help being like testifying against this man and not necessarily 0:07:25.840 --> 0:07:29.280 I didn't feel like I was being believed at all, 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.040 and it was just a horrible feeling. I'll never forget it. 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:35.080 It's a horrible feeling when you also stacked it up 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.200 nine years old. If any of us close our eyes 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:39.760 and think back to how young. 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.560 Yeah, nine is, Yeah, that's young, right. 0:07:43.160 --> 0:07:47.120 Adult survivors of any form of sexual assault or trauma 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.280 rarely testify in their cases, So what you did would 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:53.320 have been beyond the pale for even an adult, and 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:56.600 it's understandable why nobody wants to testify in these cases. 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:00.560 These systems are all designed to give perpetrators their that's 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.120 how our justice system is set up, and to be 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.600 doubting of the accuser. That is the foundation of how 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.600 this justice system is set up. It's innocent until proven guilty. Well, 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:13.840 if that's the case, that means an accuser is then 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:17.720 being viewed through a suspicious lens, right, And that's particularly 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:21.320 pronounced and profound when a person is bringing sexual trauma, 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:25.520 especially a child as a miner whose brain hasn't really 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.680 developed in a way to fully integrate what this is. 0:08:29.120 --> 0:08:33.240 Children look to adult for safety. That's what they do. 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.800 So when an adult violates a child's safety, the child 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:41.520 doesn't actually have a good template to turn to for that, 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:45.200 and so the child's go to is to figure out 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.280 how they're complicit in this because that story allows them 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.280 to be safer in the world at large. Otherwise the 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:57.360 world becomes real dangerous, real fast. All adults become potentially risky. 0:08:57.679 --> 0:08:57.880 Yeah. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:01.400 We talk about people being invalidating and traumatizing, and frankly, 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:05.560 narcissistic systems are too. I think the judicial system is 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.560 a great example of a system that is invalidating and traumatizing, 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:12.920 especially for survivors of any form of sexual violence. 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.800 Yeah, thanks for saying all of that. It just reminds 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.680 me of people in general who suffer in silence because 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.600 of the fact of either feeling like they weren't believed 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.400 when telling their story or there's so much shame because 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.600 of not being able to or feeling like they can't 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.080 communicate it. You know, I was blessed, I guess enough 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.240 for my mom to put me into therapy since I 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:36.200 was a little girl, and I haven't stopped, and it's 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:40.160 something that it's not negotiable in my life. But it 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:42.880 has been really hard to put everything into words my 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:45.560 body because I'm a dancer. I have a sematic therapist. 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.320 I haven't talk therapists, but the sematic is a lot easier, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.600 but I'm still learning how to be able to communicate 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:54.320 this through talking. 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:58.200 It's so interesting you say that, Cheryl, because trauma is 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.560 very much encoded in stored somatically. That's where we keep it. 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.080 And what we've learned in the last thirty years of 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.240 trauma treatment is that that sematic focus is a game change, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.400 right and reorienting to our bodies. What's remarkable to me 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.800 is you a trauma survivor, your body became your form 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.040 of art, So what an ultimate way to heal. But 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:19.960 also it's really weird too. 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:21.640 You're like, yeah, but you're going to stuff yourself in 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:25.440 a dance costume when you've been violated, right, and comfortable 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:26.760 dancing in front of millions of people. 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:30.280 Yeah, for people who are listening. You know, when we're 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.480 talking about how we hold things sematically, we hold them 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.280 in our body. So trauma gets held in the body. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.720 And I've been working for years, I mean, if not lifetimes, 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:41.200 and I have to say, over the years, it would 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.040 be many times people wouldn't connect. It would be even 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.160 things like when people felt they couldn't speak, the strangulation 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.760 in the throats, anxiety, it's felt in the gut, it's 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:54.040 felt in the head, it's felt in the shoulders. It's 0:10:54.440 --> 0:10:57.840 and that's often where people would process it first, right, 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.920 And it's then teaching people you understand. I always say 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.360 that the brain, the mind often gaslights the body. The 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:08.840 body's holding all the truth and the brain's like, come on, 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.760 like drama, body, right, and so, but I think that 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:15.400 it's because the brain and the body are serving different functions. 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:19.480 The brain is trying to keep you safe, right, So 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:22.760 it's like, body, don't tell me this, like everything's dangerous. 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:25.199 No no, no, no no no, we can't work with that, right, 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:27.400 And so the brain's like just chill body, because I 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.000 can't manage this much threat and the body feels the threat. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.040 One of the things we often see with trauma survivors 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:34.880 is you can teach them to trust their bodies, sometimes 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:36.839 a little quicker than we can teach them to trust 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.720 their minds, right, because this is where it's all held. 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:40.800 Because you can't hide the feeling. 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:43.079 You can't hide the feeling, you can't hide your sensation. 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.720 But a lot of people don't connect the dots interesting. 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.040 They have the sensation, they've had this experience, but what 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.439 they don't realize is that this stuff that's held in 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.160 their body the Semitic stuff, and that their body is 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.880 signaling something to them. And so that's why, in some ways, 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.640 your body is an interesting early detection device because I 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.960 will tell particularly people have survived any kind of trauma, 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.480 whether it be physical, sexual, or even emotional. Listen to 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:10.199 your body, because your poor brain has been trying to 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.360 run circles and makes sense to go it does and listen, 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:15.920 and when you're feeling that that might be a sign 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:17.160 to say, you know what, I think I'm going to 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.839 step out of this situation because there's a lot of 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:20.400 data there. 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:22.840 But with that feeling when you're like, do I walk 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.480 through this alleyway or not? Like you just know you 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.840 just need to give it a second and trust it. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:32.400 It's body awareness, just knowing when your stomach hurts or 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.360 whatever it is. Oucha, you ran to the door, done 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.400 that a few times, you know it hurts, like and 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.800 just acknowledging it. But yes, I'm blessed that dance was 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.840 my form of I'm blessed first of all that my 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:46.200 mom was able to afford my dancing career, but also 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.880 my mom thought I was deaf growing up because I 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:51.560 didn't talk at all. She took me to a hearing 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:56.000 specialist who said, no, miss, but your daughter's going through PTSD, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.720 which is why she's not talking. Like how this was 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.160 even for the sexual abuse and I just my mom 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.000 and dad divorced when I was two, so that was 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:08.120 very traumatic and though it was like yesterday, another traumatic 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.360 event happened was witnessing my father being intimate with another 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.119 woman at such a young age. Though they were separated, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.320 I didn't put two and two together. So that was 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.000 like my very first memory as a kid. 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.360 Okay, so let's go backwards, All right, let's go back. 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.679 So you were not talking. You didn't really start talking 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:27.520 until you were two, No, after that, three four, maybe 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.760 five five? Okay, all right, so that would have been 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:32.280 something that would have jumped out. Okay, yeah, but at 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.520 two you said your parents divorce. Right, Can you talk 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.520 to me about that period of time because it sounds 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.120 like that that was a separated or separated but that's 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:42.680 a significant event for sanchi, young child to us no 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.160 language to even understand what was happening. Yeah, So what 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:46.840 was all that like? 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.599 Well, it was interesting because my mother's Filipina. She was 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.800 raised long story, shortened poverty and moved here to the 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.320 States and created a nursing agency called Nurse Provider. So 0:13:57.360 --> 0:13:59.959 she opened up the very first nursing agency. Like how 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:05.680 we as talent have agents. So she was very, very busy. 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:09.720 And I was born in eighty four and that's when 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.120 her company had just started, so there wasn't a lot 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.600 of I guess I was raised with my Filipina nanny 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.040 more than anybody as far as my parents go. So 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.600 there's that We're living in the Bay Area where I'm from, 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:24.800 and I just remember going bouncing from house to house. 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.800 So my father's home for a couple of days, and 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.480 then my mom, you know, but then my Filipina nanny 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:33.640 was with me at all times. Oh so she'd go 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.240 from house to back correct yes, yes, yes, yes, but 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:38.840 still like she wasn't able to drive, she couldn't speak English. 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.000 So that was another reason why I didn't talk, because 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:42.840 we had two different languages spoken in home. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:44.960 You had a lot going on, and that kind of 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.520 the chaos, the multiple languages, all of that. I mean, 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:51.120 now we would probably have assessed a child like you 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:54.880 very differently. Well, what I'm hearing is busy parents, yes, 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:58.200 distracted parents, Yes, you're going back and forth. The only 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.720 consistent through line in your life is a paid kit 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:05.040 nanny who didn't speak who didn't speak English. What I'm 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:06.920 hearing is being affected. There was attachment. 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:09.800 I am totally anxious attachment. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.640 Okay, all right, And so let's talk a little bit 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:13.880 about any anxious attachment is because people are going to say, well, 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.400 what does that mean if someone's anxiously attached? What does 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.600 it mean to you? Before I launch into sort of 0:15:18.640 --> 0:15:20.160 a professorial what anxious? 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.400 Okay is? I love this already. I could talk to 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.160 you for weeks. I have anxiety when it comes to 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.240 first of all relationships but abandonment issues. It's interesting because 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.400 me and my therapists were talking about this in length, 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.880 actually about avoidant versus anxious, and I am a little 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:40.760 bit of both, but I'm mainly anxious though the avoidant 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:43.440 had just started to happen because of the fear of 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:49.040 feeling needy and maybe feeling rejected because of my anxious 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:55.280 attachment issue that I then quickly switch over to becoming avoidant. 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.200 So it all like it's not either or what. 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:00.920 Does that look like when you become So if you go. 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.760 So like if I feel rejected by let's say, if 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:06.680 I'm like, oh, let's cuddle, or like I'm becoming I'm 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:12.200 extra vulnerable right through my body and I don't feel 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.680 like that other person is open to it, then I 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:17.480 will right away my wall. 0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:22.040 Fast right and and so you know, with this protective 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.920 you're protecting, I'm protecting myself and this kind of you know, 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:28.520 the kind of early inconsistency in mild chaos you were 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.560 living in, will impact attachments, so totally. You know, the 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.960 gold standard that what we hope for for everybody is 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.840 a secure attachment, of course, and with the secure attachment, 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.440 the child feels safe, They feel that they're they can 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.160 they have readily available caregivers that they can beckon and 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:47.280 make needs known to, and they feel safe expressing those 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:49.360 needs and that those needs would not be rejected or 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:51.720 the child will be abandoned. It's so interesting to me 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:54.440 to see you. You literally gave this big expence. Oh, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.200 I said that. You know that that is something that 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.840 you want and want and wish for. Right, Yeah, children. 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:03.640 Can be then realize that only I can do that for. 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:07.120 Myself as now, But some children can be securely attached 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:10.159 to one caregiver and not to another. Of course, but 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:11.280 when we get into the area and. 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:13.320 We had my second caregiver who admosted me. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.080 There you go. See. So that's what we're going to 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.399 get you that now, when a caregiver engages in harm, 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:21.360 you were older than then I would know. So yeah, 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.440 so not much older, but those early early caregiver attachments, 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.639 those become really profoundly important. As other people come into 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:32.560 the sphere of the child, it's still going to affect attachment. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.280 The way they researched this was they would actually look 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:39.040 at what's called separation behavior and reunion behavior. So children 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.720 being separated from their caregiver. Usually in this research, it 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.320 was a mother how they would do it goodbye, and 0:17:44.359 --> 0:17:48.439 how they would do it hellodbye, and that's them. I 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:50.560 was mom was dressed up in a ball gown and 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.679 like mind you, she was working like long hours. I 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:56.000 remember grabbing onto her ank I'll never forget it. And 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.240 she was with her friends. And it's with any goodbyes, 0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:01.520 any goodbyes. Did generalize says to all goodbyes. Right, So 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.920 the goodbye is chaotic and there's a lot of distress 0:18:03.960 --> 0:18:06.199 and it takes a minute to soothe the child. Then 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.320 the child does their thing. Then when the child comes 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.800 back with the caregiver, there's this almost like almost like 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.600 a don't like you're back, don't leave me again, and 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:21.119 almost like a pro right. That's the only way I 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:21.800 could describe it. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:22.760 Yes, yes, yes. 0:18:22.840 --> 0:18:27.320 In the avoidantly attached child, when the point of separation comes, 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.120 they kind of walk off and when the parent comes back, 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:32.840 there could be some tears, some agitation, but by and 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:34.720 large they remain disinterested. 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.560 What are the parents like when you're avoidant attachment. 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:41.280 They're neglectful. There's much more. It's very much a. 0:18:40.600 --> 0:18:44.520 Different like neglectful versus intrusive busy. 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:47.639 Well that's that's a neglect. But there's also there was 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.320 intrusiveness too, right, there was also like it's not as 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.000 though you didn't think there was anyone there, you know, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:55.639 it's that they were there and they were kind of 0:18:55.680 --> 0:19:00.119 like up, down, in out, probably overinvolved, under involved, that 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:02.680 kind of thing that it's not like nobody there. 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.440 And can you get to the secure attachment. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.359 It takes a lot of work, it does, you know. 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.840 But here's the thing you said, you're in therapy. Therapy 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.440 becomes actually one of those places where the secure attachment 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.240 gets created again. You know that the therapist is there 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:18.399 on time, and they're there and available, and they don't 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.199 reject you because you say something. And that if in 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:23.800 long term psychotherapy, that can be one place for it. 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:27.280 Really healthy friendships that persist for a long time. We 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:31.320 can have these safe, secure bases we slowly start to create. 0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:34.000 Some people will say some of that starts for them 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.920 when they have children, that they become a secure base 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:39.720 for the child. Now, some anxiously attached parents can also 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.119 be hovery. So they really need to get their stuff 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.320 in order before they have a child. Is a good 0:19:44.320 --> 0:19:45.800 way to do it. Have a dog first, you know, 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:48.520 have a dog first. I think it absolutely can be 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:51.760 it can be reworked in adult relationships, but it has 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:54.040 to be intentional. It can't just be that you get 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.440 lucky and you find it good. But then you said, 0:19:57.440 --> 0:19:59.679 at the age of three, I just want to understand 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.879 what happen that you walked in on your father. Yes, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.919 and he was having sex with someone obviously no mother, Yeah, no, no, 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.119 how did it look at my mother? Okay, okay, you 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.320 had to type how did that? You obviously have? 0:20:12.560 --> 0:20:13.280 That was traumatic? 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:14.040 That's traumatic. 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:16.879 Yeah, and I'll never forget as well. Like I remember, 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:18.840 you know, because I was staying there so I had 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.640 to shower, you know, and I needed help, so he'd 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.240 make me shower with this like woman who was his secretary. Yeah, 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.399 it was pretty traumatic seeing that. And I just remember 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:30.160 seeing opening the door and seeing just like the back 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:33.480 of her she had long black hair. It was it's interesting, 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:34.480 like and she was naked. 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:35.200 Obviously. 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.600