WEBVTT - Episode 2 - 7:15 In The Morning 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:05.400 When people ask me, what are your brothers like? I 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.200 turned my head and smile. How do you say camp fires, 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:15.120 American trucks and wet grass. My brothers are w d forty, 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:21.479 cast iron gates and thermal underwear. They're broken windows, shell 0:00:21.600 --> 0:00:26.480 casings and swinging screen doors. Ryan is my twin, Dylan 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:29.440 is my opposite, but on the right day, we're the same. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.520 I want to tell you a story, a true story, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:37.199 but truth is always based in opinion, and who's to 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:42.160 say that we're telling the truth. Welcome to The Dougherty Gang, 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:45.919 a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios, Episode 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:49.920 two fifteen in the Morning. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a crime 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:54.040 producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker. We've been working 0:00:54.080 --> 0:00:57.080 with producer Beth Greenwald on The Dougherty Gang for months now. 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:00.200 The three siblings have agreed to tell their story for 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.360 the very first time, each from separate prisons. Lee Grace 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.520 Dockerty is at Federal correction Institute Aliceville in Alabama, Ryan 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.319 is in United States Penitentiary Tucson in Arizona, and Dylan 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:14.880 is at the Federal Corrections Institute in Bennettsville in South Carolina. 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:18.120 This call was from the Federal prison. Me and Dylan 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:20.119 were just looking at each other like in a state 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.360 of shock and surprise. If Dylan is under anxiety, you 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.800 know that I'm going to be under anxiety, because Dylan 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:31.280 is usually a very cool, calm collected person. I felt 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.080 like everything was really stacked against us, you know what 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:34.880 I mean. And I just felt like he was just 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:37.679 unfair from the start. On the afternoon of August one, 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:40.240 two thousand and one, twenty one year old Ryan Dougherty 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.080 came home from court, met with his probation officer and 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.040 found out he was in a situation where he would 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.480 soon be sent to prison, away from his son, who 0:01:47.520 --> 0:01:51.760 was days away from being born. Here he is speaking 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.320 with Beth Greenwald, and so now this guy's at your 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:56.360 home and he's telling you all these things in these threats, 0:01:56.360 --> 0:02:00.559 and is Dylan there. It was with the little shorty 0:02:00.600 --> 0:02:03.000 a k because he had put the majority of the 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:06.560 firearms in there. And the guy goes over and jiggles 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:09.080 it because it's got a log chain through two holes 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.520 that are bored into the doors of the shed. And 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:15.480 I'm already of the mind pretty much we're gonna rock 0:02:15.520 --> 0:02:17.560 and rolling it out of here. The guy gave it 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.079 a mighty little job, and he you know, he came inside. 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:22.079 He's like, hey, you're gonna did you give me a 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:24.079 key to dad or open it for me or whatever 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.360 some some ship like that. He leaves, and what happens, Yeah, 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.080 he leaves, and then we started talking about things. And 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:33.600 then my baby's mother tells my brother and sister. She's like, 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:37.120 holy shit, I can't believe my fucking ears of what 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.239 this guy just threatened. Feeling he was out of options, 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.720 he and his siblings, twenty nine oldly Grace and twenty 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.080 six year old Dylan, we're grappling with the reality they 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.320 were facing. Here's the Grace. I think all that stress 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.680 was coming out, and he was coming out in negative ways. 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:56.160 And I think Dylan, being the older, protective big brother, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.240 was looking at this as a short term solution of 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.440 let's run from the problem because the base officer does 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:05.760 not want to work with Ryan. I wouldn't say I 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.480 was thinking clear. It's hard to explain, but also stars 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:10.840 had aligned. It was like the gravitational pool was just 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:13.839 that's what it was. It was just a really bad 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:17.240 situation for our family. All we knew about prison is 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.919 from what we have seen on TV or movies. We 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:22.680 basically thought, okay, well you go to prison and you die. 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:25.600 So with us going into that with that type of fear, 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.919 that type of anxiety, we basically thought that any time 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:31.280 in prison is a death sentence. You know that. There's 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:33.400 the state of mind that we were in. We didn't 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.680 know any better. You know, nobody in our family had 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.120 ever been to prison. With the strict mandate the probation 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:41.240 officer was laying out, Ryan felt like he was in 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:45.040 an impossible situation. The probation officer comes to your job, 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.920 and Florida's the right to work state. Your probation officer 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:51.080 comes to your job, and your job's like, yo, you're 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:52.760 on probation. Man. We don't want to deal with this 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.600 ship or somebody like you. You're fired. You're like, bro, 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.320 if I get fired, I'm going back into prison. Ran 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:00.440 just felt like he couldn't do the probably Asian, there 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.720 was no way with him having a newborn baby. How 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.880 was he going to facilitate childcare? How was he going 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.280 to drop in that school. There were so many questions 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.360 that we didn't know, and it just seemed impossible to 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.520 work around all these rules. After the probation officer left, 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:18.359 anxiety and fearmounted and Lee Grayson Dillon met up with 0:04:18.440 --> 0:04:20.000 Ryan at his house to figure out a way to 0:04:20.040 --> 0:04:22.520 protect Ryan and keep him from being sent to jail 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:24.960 for fifteen years. We were all at the house. We're 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:28.000 sitting down. I'm writing shoot on paper because I'm dumb 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:31.360 and paranoid enough to think that the fucking ankle bracelet monitor, 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:33.560 I don't know if it's got like a microphone on it. 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.320 That's how young and stupid I was, and like fucking paranoid. 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.479 That's that's how bad my thought process was at that age. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:42.800 We were sketching it out. We would go back and 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.120 forth and kind of trying and figure out what seemed 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:47.839 like something iron and for plotting. What we were plotting 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:51.599 was relatively calm about it. So we sit there, we 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.280 scotch out a rough plan and that was it as 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.680 I sit now, granted up had ten years to think 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.039 about it, But my brain works differently than did that right? 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.800 You know, you can very a very basic litmus has 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:05.800 is just to say things out loud and if they 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.640 sound stupid, maybe don't do them. And for that one, 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:11.160 it was just a dumb fucking idea. How long did 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.120 it take for the plan to come into fruition? Was 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:15.960 in a ten minute conversation? Was it an all night conversation? 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:19.920 It was pretty much all night because I know, I 0:05:19.960 --> 0:05:22.480 was laying on the couch and I'm talking. Ryan's next 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:25.279 to me, Dylan's pacing, so it was just everything was 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:29.000 just happening so fast, and Ryan was just upset. He 0:05:29.080 --> 0:05:32.560 was shaking. It would go from anger to grief to sadness. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.320 You know, I felt kind of traumatized from the whole 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.560 ship and I just snapped. So yeah, I wasn't exactly 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:40.400 thinking right, and I was at the point where I 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:42.640 was almost just happy, just happy that you know this, 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.120 this will force a resolution. Hopefully somebody will pay attention 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.559 once they've seen this fucking bomb that went off. Here's 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:50.840 Dylan again. You know, we're just gonna do this. X 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.000 y Z will get that, and then we'll be gone 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.440 and everything will be all right. You know. The playoff 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:58.279 was really fluid, but you know, Ryan's girlfriend was going 0:05:58.320 --> 0:05:59.800 to come down south and meet up with us, and 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.359 the US settles will this will will be. The wheels 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:04.679 began to turn and an off the cuff plan was hatched. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:07.560 Early the next morning, the siblings would pack up and 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.159 head to Mexico, where they'd start fresh. Ryan would send 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:13.800 for Amber and the baby once they got settled. The 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:17.039 timeline was very last minute, because at no point did 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:19.240 we ever look at each other and say, let's get 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:22.000 in the car, let's load up the guns. Our plans 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.400 were actually to stay under the radar, not just from 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.560 the probation officer, but from anybody that was trying to 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:31.160 track us. I'm not gonna say it was like blind 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:33.760 in my rage, but I was like I was blinded 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:36.040 by you know, just kind of me in that corner. 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:38.960 You get to a point, I guess all people probably 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.320 have it where whatever you do snap, it's it's very 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.600 hard to come back to making like rational decisions. I 0:06:45.720 --> 0:06:49.080 just snapped in like a big way. Older sister Lee 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.320 Grace wanted nothing more than to help a little brother 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.640 out of the situation. I think he was under so 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.000 much stress that my brother Ryan, he did not know 0:06:57.040 --> 0:06:58.960 what to do. You know, he's a young man, this 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.080 is his first baby. He was under a lot of 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.760 pressure from his baby's mother. I've sent some text messages 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.120 that were inappropriate. If it was that bad. Why did 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:11.160 you just give me probation? The judge in court saying 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:13.560 in my transcripts, he's like, I'm sorry, I'm lumping you 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.120 in with four year olds at rape eleven year olds, 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.200 But unfortunately our legislator has no difference. He has. Dr 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.400 Avidan Moleski. He's a PhD and associate professor who specializes 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.920 in complex family difficulties and developmental psychology. He's also the 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:31.600 author of Sibling Issues and Therapy. Dr Mlevski followed the 0:07:31.600 --> 0:07:35.160 doctor case closely. Here he is speaking with producer Beth Greenwald. 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:38.239 When this story first broke, What were your initial thoughts 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:43.880 on this family, these siblings? My first knee jerk reaction 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.520 to when you hear a story of three a young 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:52.800 adults driving around violently, shooting at cops across several states 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:56.800 and bank robberies, and right, your first initial reactions, these 0:07:56.800 --> 0:08:00.680 are criminals, let's go get them. What's sad? And more 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:03.280 of a rational part of my brain kicks in and 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.360 considering that it was a sibling story, I started reading 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:09.200 up on this case a little bit further, and then 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:12.560 as a story unfolds and more information comes around, and 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.240 then I started realizing that It's much more complicated than 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.400 the black and white of the good guys and the 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.000 bad guys when you really look at the crime involved 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:24.600 and how they were sentenced and how they were treated 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:29.080 even initially. Why Ryan had to be registered as a 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.920 sex offender, that whole story of how it developed is 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:38.360 a system failure. These siblings, the entire system failed with them. 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:41.520 The only system that did not fail them is the 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.240 sibling system. It was the only system that took care 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.120 of them, the sibling dynamic that they had. And let 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.960 me ask you something. This thing that happened was going 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:54.280 to destroy the rest of his life for all intensive purposes, 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:58.120 register as a sex offender, ankle monitoring device, all these things, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:00.880 And did you feel like, just in your opinion, if 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.360 something had been broken down a little bit, if things 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.800 had been explained, if he wasn't looking at fifteen years 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:08.360 in jails for sex thing? You know, was that a 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:11.480 system fail as you said, or kind of unpack that 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.280 a little bit if you don't mind, you have to 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:17.640 register as a sex offender equal to someone a fifty 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:20.400 year old perfort who raped a kid in a yard. 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.720 They are registered in the same registry because as a 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:28.520 nineteen year old he sexted someone who thought it was fifteen. 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:31.640 Now we're obviously not condoining that behavior in any way, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.800 but do we really equate the actions of the nineteen 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.120 year old that was basically sending a loot text to 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.120 a rapist? We can now again legally we do. And 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.439 that's part of the failure here. He did something far 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:49.400 less severe than that, and that really spiral this in time. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.240 That's what got this entire story going. So when I 0:09:52.320 --> 0:09:54.559 say it was a system failure, this is one of 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.240 the kegs that failed him. Here's Ryan speaking with Beth 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.600 green Walt. Would you say it was Serve Bivle mode? 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.320 Panic mode? You know your panic, and when you panic, 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.959 you don't think Clark directly when it's a situation like that. 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.040 I mean, I don't know how clearly they were thinking. 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:11.520 I don't know the thought process. I mean, I know 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.719 in my whole life from my brother and sister, it's 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:16.120 just difficult to say what was going through their head. 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:19.079 I mean, as they were older than me, not carry 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:21.199 guilt around with me, and I'm probably well for the 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.000 rest of my life even though they tell me not to. 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.400 Eventually I ruined their whole life and it's just hard 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:31.079 to live with that. Frank Kazinski is the owner of 0:10:31.160 --> 0:10:34.400 Tampa Bay Monitoring. His company has been providing alcohol and 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.640 GPS monitors for over a decade. He shared his thoughts 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.199 on how Ryan's probation was structured. In his case, he 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:45.199 was given this bracelet with the idea that one he 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:50.600 was responsible for paying for it. And I'm guessing, and 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:52.440 I don't know this for a fact, that he was 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.320 placed on some form of house arrest, which meant you 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.440 had to keep track of everywhere you went if you 0:10:58.480 --> 0:11:01.240 had anything any except pations that had to be approved 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:06.120 by a probation officer or some authority. And in this case, 0:11:06.200 --> 0:11:09.120 also you have to make sure you kept up the payments, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:11.520 Like you gotta go to like meetings like three times 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.040 a week, and you gotta pay like twelve a month 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:15.960 to beyond that probation. You know, I'm pulling in like 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:19.520 a month, So you want to under of that, and 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.280 then you want me to sucking be at this place 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:23.640 at that time. By like as soon as I tell 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:25.920 my job, hey, I can't work today, I have to 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.960 go to this meeting, they're gonna be like, yeah, we'll 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.840 find another employee. It's the right to work state that's 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:35.760 a problem. There's jurisdictions such as Tennessee that the state 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.000 literally will pay for the bracelet if you can't because 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:43.559 they figure it's a cheaper way of number one avoids overcrowding. 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.679 Two that allows you to keep your job. Three you 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.679 sleep in your own bed with your family. Mommy and 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:53.600 Daddy are they're not in jail in this case. They 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.760 basically told him that he was responsible for paying for 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.920 this thing and he couldn't do it, and they didn't care. 0:12:00.520 --> 0:12:03.600 It was basically being set up for failure. People charge 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.480 anywhere from eight to fifteen dollars a day, and I mean, 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.800 I don't know too many people can pay fifteen or 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.600 you know, sometimes ten dollars a day plus a deposit 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.760 or whatever else is necessary. But why they insisted on 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.480 a payment here when they know the guy you didn't 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:21.400 have the pot or the window to throw it out 0:12:21.400 --> 0:12:25.320 of his is nonproductive. Ryan was feeling hopeless as he 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.920 processed what this one mistake from two years ago would 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:29.839 do to the rest of his life. Once you get 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:33.800 a felony, you're fucking pigeonholed into a goddamn mediocre job 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:36.839 and a mediocre life and like just barely making it. 0:12:37.080 --> 0:12:39.280 Go figure out what the minimum wage's in Florida at 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:41.160 the time when I was there, it's like fucking eight 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.079 dollars or some ship. Go figure out what rent costs. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.360 Go figure out what food costs. Figure out what a 0:12:46.400 --> 0:12:48.880 car payment costs. Are out the cell phone payment costs, 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.800 figure out what insurance costs. There's no way to cover it. 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.959 You know, you get to a point where you're just 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:56.960 sitting there and you're like, well, what is the point 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.640 of me even being alive anymore? You know, what's the point? 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.160 What could I do? The deathbed promised Dylan made to 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:05.880 his dad to look out for his little brother with 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:09.720 something Dylan took very seriously. He felt powerless, and as 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:13.440 a result, his frustration intensified. The part that really, you 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.199 know bothers me is we've all made mistakes. We've all 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.120 done things that we maybe regret a little bit or 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:22.680 or a lot of it later. I'm not saying everybody's 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.599 committed a felony. You know, my brother made an automistakes 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:27.839 as a kid. It's just another one of those things. 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.560 It's like not unfortunate advance the way that at all unfolded. 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:32.920 It was like we were all on pins and needles. 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.520 I could just see anger Dylan and just build with 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.920 his anger. It's just coming out of him. And it 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:41.800 was just a really anxious time. Lee Grace was struggling 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:44.080 with her addiction to drugs and was coming off the vendor. 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.360 The situation was forcing her to quit pills cold Turkey. 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.040 I don't feel good. I need my kills, and they're 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:52.920 basically saying no, you don't. You know, so I don't 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:56.600 have any pills with me. I don't have any drug footsoever. 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.959 So you know, all my zanex are gone. I'd eaten 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:06.600 all of them. We're going to take a quick break here. 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:17.200 We'll be back in a moment. The plan was to 0:14:17.200 --> 0:14:19.200 try to get some sleep and leave first thing in 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:24.120 the morning. I remember I was extremely drowsy. I had 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.400 only slept for about four or five hours, and I 0:14:26.440 --> 0:14:28.280 got up and it was early in the morning. I 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.120 just remember being on the porch and looking and I'm 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.680 looking now and it's it's very bright and everything is 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.080 just kind of happening. But I'm just physically there. I'm 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.840 not my emotions are just somewhere else. I was almost 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:42.120 kind of emotionally shut down. But I remember carrying things 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:44.320 and putting them in the back of the subaru, and 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.760 I'm just looking at Dylan and I'm just following him. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:50.280 I'm just trying to kind of gauge how everything is 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.080 gonna happen. But at the same time, you don't know 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.040 something bad is going to happen. You just have a 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.560 very ominous feeling. As the Doctrity has packed up the car, 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.200 it was obvious their plan came from a place of panic, 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.880 not common sense. The siblings weren't prepared on any level 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:07.520 for the journey ahead. You're not gonna be honest with you. 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.560 I don't even think we packed any food or water. 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.080 You know, later on down the line, we thought we're like, hey, man, 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.680 we should probably get a water bottle, just a really 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.800 simple water bottle. At one point, I was going back 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.600 and forth. Am I gonna go with them the whole 0:15:22.600 --> 0:15:25.240 way to Mexico with them? Or maybe I was going 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.400 to stay with Amber because you know, she's about to 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.080 give birth to this baby, and I wanted to be 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:32.920 there for my nephew and help out with the baby. 0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.440 And even if it was only in my own head, 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.240 I was thinking, well, maybe I need to stay with 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:41.840 Amber as you know, her older sister, or you know, 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.000 to look out for the rest of the family that 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.920 we would be leaving behind. Um. Now, when I got 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:50.600 in the car and um we we left, that's why 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.480 I decided, well, this is this is where I'm at, 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.600 This is I'm going to continue to stay with Ryan 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.600 and Diylan because they need me. I think we knew 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.480 we should need the money before we left Florida at 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:02.840 that point, you know what I mean, it was it 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.440 was just a whirlwind. I had so many tools. I 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:07.560 probably could have you got on the arnet and had 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:09.720 a you know, on eBay and had a yard sale 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:14.040 and come up with dollars. In retrospect, it's easy to 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:15.840 see that selling the tools would have been a smarter 0:16:15.920 --> 0:16:18.560 plan than packing up the guns to sell. We were 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:22.640 going to cross into Mexico once we had cash, because 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:25.400 we didn't want any credit cards. We didn't want any 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:28.160 ties to where we were going. The docertees didn't have 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:29.920 much money on them and they knew they would need 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.560 cash to make it to Mexico undetected. We actually had 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.120 my brother's guns and he was going to sell them 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:42.360 to make money. Dylan's friend was going to purchase the 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.000 guns from us and give us cash. I feel like 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.840 I did, would uh, you know anybody? We do as 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:51.040 far as you know, maybe not as going to the 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.400 degree that I carried in, but I know the great 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.320 set of shumen. On the other foot, I wouldn't even 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.080 have to ask something on They would have been there 0:16:58.120 --> 0:16:59.960 for me just as much as I was there for Ryan. 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:04.080 And Ryan loving Amber the way he did. If he's 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.520 separated from someone he loves, he's going to go off 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.200 the deep end. So a lot of his thought process 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:12.199 was what do I do without my baby's mom? What 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:14.960 do I do without the baby? So you know that 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:17.720 really factored in. It was harsh. It was very harsh 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:21.240 on him. He was very sad, He was very lonely. 0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.000 You know, he was expressing a lot of distress. Amber 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:26.680 was due to give birth in a matter of days 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.399 and it crushed Ryan to leave her. Here again is 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:32.679 Ryan speaking with Beth greenmalt So you knew it was 0:17:32.680 --> 0:17:34.719 a son before you left, correct you guys found out 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.040 the sex of the baby? Yeah? I did. I went with. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:38.639 I took off of work. You know what, man, it 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.640 was the weirdest thing that would make her happy. Man. 0:17:40.840 --> 0:17:42.920 She was just so happy that I would be willing 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:44.480 to take off of work to come, and I'm like 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.560 taking her myself. I'm like, man, she's crazy if she 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:48.800 thought that she could keep me from coming to go 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.280 to the ultrasound, whether to see if it was a 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:55.400 boy or a girl. I had a ritual with her. 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.919 I would always come back in and uh, kids her 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:00.880 goodbye before I went to work. I'd leave, I get 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.960 all the way out, and I have like a little ritual. 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.200 I'm all the way back in the house and I 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:06.919 pull the cover down just a little bit because she 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:08.560 always goes back to bed because I get up so 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.520 fucking early to work, and I always give her a 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:12.159 kiss and I always tell her I love her, some 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:13.920 thing I would always do before I went to bed, 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.920 and uh, I got to go back inside. She's all pregnant, 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:20.320 belly and big and standing on like the front stoop 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.000 on the inside crying, you know, And I told her 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:29.200 I loved during goodbye. Driving away, I drive about fifteen 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.440 miles away from the house. Twenty miles away from the house, 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:33.359 I'm like, ah, I can't have this ankle pricelet no 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.160 more cut it off. I wrapped it up with its 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:38.560 box neatly, and I said it nicely on the side 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:40.040 of the road in a place where they could easily 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:42.480 locate it and get their ship back. Once you line out, 0:18:42.480 --> 0:18:45.000 of course, and you commit yourself to it for some 0:18:45.080 --> 0:18:47.440 things that you just can't take back. You know, once 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:51.000 you cross that rubicon, you're just fucked like you to 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:53.760 that cause and you've got no choice but to see 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.199 it through. Here's some additional inside from dr Abbadan Mileski's 0:18:57.200 --> 0:19:00.960 conversation with Beth Ryan. Obviously commit a crime two years 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:04.359 earlier than the start of this quote unquote crime spree, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.680 and he was labeled as sexual offender, and he's the 0:19:07.720 --> 0:19:10.240 first to admit and take ownership of that what he 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.359 did was wrong. But he was eighteen or nineteen and 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.480 he sent sexually an appropriate text to a minor. Now 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:21.000 a nineteen year old is not functioning completely in terms 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:24.479 of decision making. Our magic reaction is, oh, he's a criminal. 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.280 That's it. Either he's got a rap sheet already. And 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:30.480 we think in this black and white way when it 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:33.760 comes to cool criminals, when you start puling white, and 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.000 I think this story is a window into this larger 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:39.240 issue of how do we deal with quote criminals, and 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.080 we just boxed them all in. And this sex registry 0:19:42.119 --> 0:19:48.840 is the greatest example of that. But socially, psychologically, developmental, psychology, neurologically, 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.560 it's a whole different story. So again, the system, many 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:56.560 systems failed them, except for the symboling system. And let's 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:58.679 go back a little bit, because you know, their father 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.560 really instilled in the children from a young age the 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:05.439 importance of family. So how does that land. You know, 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.640 in that family dynamic, they were clearly a close knit 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:12.800