1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,639 Speaker 1: This is Robert Lamb and this is Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of our series on elf Shot. Now, 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: this is an idea we introduced in part one. If 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to that yet, you should go back 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: check that one out first. But basically elf shot is 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: a what would you say, rob like, it's a complex 9 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: of interlocking folk beliefs, not a single belief, but it's 10 00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: found especially in the British Isles and essentially centering on 11 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: the idea of fairies or elves attacking mortal humans and 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: especially their live stock with supernatural weapons. Would you say 13 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: that's fair? Yeah? Yeah. There there's a lot going on 14 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: in it, as we discussed in the first episode. I mean, 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: on one hand, there there's the interpretation of artifacts, artifacts 16 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: that from various time periods, both ancient and relatively recent. Uh. 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: There's also the attempt to understand mysterious ailments, mostly in 18 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: in livestock, but sometimes in human beings as well, and 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: then various folk traditions getting wrapped up into these scripts. 20 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: And it's also it seems to be highly regional too. 21 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: Uh so it's uh, it's not. There's not just one 22 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 1: elf aero script. We have multiple scripts. It ends up 23 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: tying into folk medicine and so forth as well. Yeah, 24 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: and that folk medicine aspect is is very interesting. I 25 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 1: want to come back to that in just a minute. 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 1: So in the last episode we we did talk about 27 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 1: some direct accounts of folk beliefs about elf shot, especially 28 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: in Scotland, I think is where a lot of these 29 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: accounts came from, and they included things like, okay, you 30 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: have a story where a calf suddenly falls ill and 31 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: dies with no apparent explanation, and then the farmer confirms 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: that elf shot was the cause because he and his 33 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: neighbor open up the cow's body and they find a 34 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: hole in its heart, even though there was no hole 35 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: in the hide. So it must have been some kind 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 1: of supernatural fairy weapon that can pierce through the hide 37 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: without actually breaking it and strike only the internal organs. 38 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: And then, of course, when it was believed that there 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: was an injury of this kind caused by an elf 40 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: for a fairy weapon, uh, there were plenty of magical 41 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: remedies and rob can you characterize what some of the 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: main themes in these remedies were. Yeah, some of the 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,359 Speaker 1: main themes included, of course, being able to fetch either 44 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 1: the elf arrow or or have an elf arrow that 45 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: you found, or elf arrows that were in the possession 46 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: of the town or local community, and using those in 47 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: the treatment. Oftentimes this would take the form of of 48 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: immersing them in water and then using that that water 49 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: either as a drink for the afflicted or as something 50 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: that is rubbed on the liquid, flickted or poured on 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 1: the site of the wounding, that sort of thing. But again, 52 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: there are a number of different versions of this, and 53 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: the various wrinkles get added depending on which tradition you're 54 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: looking at which account. Yeah, other things were just like, hey, 55 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: mix up some gunpowder with some eggs and stuff like 56 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: that and then feed that to the cow. Right delicious. 57 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: But anyway, I wanted to address a question that came 58 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: up while we were talking uh talking last time. I 59 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: didn't have the answer to it at the time, so 60 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 1: I decided to look it up before we recorded this episode. 61 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: And the question is is there such a thing as 62 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: the placebo effect for non human animals? Of course, the 63 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: placebo effect in humans is something that often comes up 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: when we're talking about, well, you're talking about medicine in 65 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: any context, but it's especially important when you're talking about 66 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: like the history of pre scientific medicine, Like why did 67 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: people think that soaking a stone arrowhead and water and 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: then pressing it to their skin had actually healed them 69 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: of a disease? Like if you have a you know, 70 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 1: any a tumor or a bacterial infection or something, we 71 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: can be relatively confident that this intervention does not actually 72 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: shrink the tumor or kill the bacteria. And yet people 73 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 1: often thought interventions like this had healed them. So what 74 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: made them think that? I think some of that can 75 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: be chalked up to a concept that we did an 76 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: episode about, I think last year. It was a statistical 77 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: phenomenon called regression towards the mean or regression to the mean. 78 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,720 Speaker 1: But you can also think of this concept as returning 79 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: to the baseline. So UH as a quick explainer for that, 80 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: imagine you suddenly get a pain in your foot and 81 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: you've never had that pain before, and you're like, ah, 82 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: it really hurts. I don't know what to do, but 83 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: your friend says, well, I know what to do. You 84 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: have to sing a Gregorian chant and then you have 85 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 1: to lick the morning do from a spider's web. So 86 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: you try that out. You want your foot to stop hurting, 87 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: and then what do you know, sometime after that, your 88 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: foot does stop hurting. Now, in a situation like this, 89 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 1: we we really all have a tendency to think something 90 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: has been proved here, like, ah, the spider do did work, 91 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:17,479 Speaker 1: But actually, how do you know that your foot wouldn't 92 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: have stopped hurting on its own, just as soon if 93 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: you didn't do any of that stuff. In fact, the 94 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: whole point is that your foot doesn't usually hurt. The 95 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: state of pain is an outlier, that's an anomalous condition, 96 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 1: So things going back to normal on a certain time 97 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 1: scale is a totally expected outcome, all things being equal, 98 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: and regression to the mean is especially important in medicine 99 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: because it tends to be specifically when we're in an 100 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: anomalous condition, a condition that is not normal for us, 101 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: that we seek medical interventions. So if you want to 102 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: know if a medical intervention actually works or not, you 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: have to compare its efficacy against a say, placebo control group. 104 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: Instead of just giving somebody a treatment and saying did 105 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 1: you get better? If you do that, you don't know 106 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: if they would have gotten better anyway. Having the comparison 107 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: between the two groups gives you confidence in the efficacy. 108 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: But on top of just the regression to the mean 109 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: as a as a baseline effect, you've also got psychological 110 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: effects where if you actually compare people who receive an 111 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,160 Speaker 1: intervention like a medicine or a ritual or a doctor's 112 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: visit versus people who don't receive any intervention, sometimes people 113 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: who receive an intervention have better outcomes on average, even 114 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: if there's no way that intervention is actually doing anything. 115 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: If it's like you know, pressing the arrowhead deer skin. Uh. 116 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: This might be considered the pure placebo effect, improved outcomes 117 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: associated with an intervention even though it's not doing anything 118 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: mechanistically or chemically to solve the problem. And though the 119 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 1: placebo effect shows up for a range of conditions and treatments, 120 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: it seems to be especially powerful for conditions that are 121 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: modulated by the brain, such as the perception of pain 122 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: and other types of discomfort. So, to bring it back 123 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: to the question of of elf shot cattle, could it 124 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: be possible that a non human animal benefits from the 125 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: placebo effect of a magical cure in some way, even 126 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: though they can't understand the concept of medicine or develop 127 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: expectations that the magical cure would heal them. Uh. And 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 1: the you know the thing I was wondering about what 129 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: this is. There's evidence that some placebo effects and humans 130 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: are created not so much by the expectation that the 131 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: treatment is efficacious, but by the reassurance felt in the 132 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: presence of a doctor or nurse who has a good 133 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: bedside manner. And I thought, well, maybe it's possible that 134 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: animals could be calmed or soothed by certain kinds of 135 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: human attention, even if they're not able to understand that 136 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: it is for the intended purpose of healing. So anyway, 137 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: I went looking this up and I found an interesting 138 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: article by Emily Antis, who is also the author of 139 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: a book we've talked about on the show before called 140 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: The Great Indoors that's all about the effects of living 141 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: and spending time indoors. But this was an article published 142 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: in the Atlantic in twenty nineteen called a Crucial blind 143 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: Spot in Veterinary Medicine. So the top line answer here 144 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: is a clear yes. There is such a thing as 145 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: the placebo effect in non human animals in veterinary medicine, 146 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,559 Speaker 1: but it probably works by different means than the human 147 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,640 Speaker 1: version of the placebo effect. So here's an example, and 148 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: this begins by talking about a particular study of treatments 149 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: for canine epilepsy epilepsy and dogs. This research was being 150 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: carried out in the early two thousands. I think this 151 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: was in the year two thousand three, and the citation 152 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: here is the Journal of Veterinary Medicine. The article was 153 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 1: called Placebo Effect in Canine Epilepsy Trials and the authors 154 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: were Munyana, Jong and Patterson, eventually published in two thousand ten. 155 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: And the story is that the researchers were testing an 156 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 1: ant convulsant drug called uh leave tarrassetam, and it was 157 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 1: intended to curtail epileptic seizures in dogs. So in the 158 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: test group, the group that was actually getting the drug, 159 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: eight six percent of dogs of their owners reported a 160 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 1: reduction in seizure frequency, which bodes very well for the drug. 161 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: But then the study also happened to have a placebo 162 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: control group, which we're receiving a dummy treatment that was 163 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 1: supposed to do nothing, and in that group, seventy nine 164 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: percent also saw a reduction in reported seizures seventy nine 165 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,599 Speaker 1: compared to eighty six. That's that's impressive, right, Well, it 166 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: would tend to make you doubt that that the test group, 167 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 1: that that it's actually the drug that is making the difference. 168 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: So at the time of this study, Anthes notes that 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: the double blind placebo controlled trials were not all that 170 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: common in veterinary medicine, which makes sense on one hand 171 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: because again, like non human, animals are not thought to 172 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: be able to develop expectations about a about a drug 173 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: treatment or the efficacy of medicine, So how could you 174 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: expect a placebo effect to exist in dogs? But it's 175 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: a good thing to study did use such a controlled design, 176 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: because otherwise the medicine would have looked really good until 177 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: you realize that fake medicine leads to results that look 178 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: about the same or almost as good. I guess it's 179 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: just the healing power of pill pockets, right, my god, 180 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: you can never doubt the hand that those things stink 181 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: so much and dogs love them. What do they put 182 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: in those things? Do do you work in a pill 183 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: pocket factory? Tell? Maybe we don't want to know what 184 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: goes into pill pocket. That would be that's Halloween content. 185 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: I have not had a good run with with feline 186 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 1: pill pockets. Um oh, I'm sorry, and I'm not to 187 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: say they don't. You know, they work in some some cats, 188 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: and some cats are not crazy about them. My cat 189 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: will spit it out and then like dissected. And in 190 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: some brands of pill pockets you just didn't want to 191 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: want a piece off anyway, She's like, no, not eating that. 192 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: So do you ever use the trick this? This works 193 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,079 Speaker 1: for us in the past where if if the animal 194 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: is skeptical of the pill pocket with the pill in it, 195 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: you first have to give them an empty pill pocket 196 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: that has no pill in it, so they get used 197 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: to like, oh yeah, I can just eat this straight up. 198 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: And then the second one or the third one you 199 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: give them. I mean, that's a lot of pill pockets 200 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: if you're stacking it up. But if you're desperate, you 201 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: can try the empty pill pocket first to lower their defenses. Well, 202 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: you'd think that would work, but we ended up using 203 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 1: the water syringe to just blast it into the back 204 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,959 Speaker 1: of her throat and that seems to work well again 205 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: and that's a method that's not going to work for 206 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: every cat either, So it's uh, it's tough getting the 207 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 1: meds in these animals sometimes. Oh and I should also 208 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: know that. So the main study uh Anthes is talking 209 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: about here in this article is in dogs, but she 210 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: also cites studies that have reported placebo effects in cats 211 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,600 Speaker 1: and in horse is. Uh So, anyway, how on earth 212 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 1: could this be? Like again, we're assuming that dogs themselves 213 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: are not developing expectations that a drug will be effective. 214 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: I think that's a very fair assumption. They don't understand 215 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: what's going on. How on earth could such a strong 216 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: placebo effect manifest? And a number of ideas are discussed 217 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: in this article. One is, when we already talked about 218 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: regression to the mean, right, people are more likely to 219 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: enroll in a clinical trial for their dogs epilepsy if 220 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: seizures have been especially bad lately, And conditions like epilepsy 221 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: tend to sort of wax and wane on their own anyway, 222 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: So you know, you could enroll the dog at a 223 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: time when their seizures are bad, and then that would 224 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: just tend to, by the law of averages, give way 225 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: to a period where they return to the baseline and 226 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: have fewer seizures, So again, a good reason to have 227 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: a placebo control group to compare your test group to. UH. 228 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,839 Speaker 1: Second thing that I thought was interesting, Anthes sites something 229 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: called the hawthorne An effect, which is the idea that 230 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: people often behave differently when they know they're being studied 231 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: or observed. I think the name of this effect comes 232 00:13:09,960 --> 00:13:15,320 Speaker 1: from UH some anecdote about industrial productivity research which found 233 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 1: all kinds of spurious effects for things like, oh, what 234 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: would happen if we change the lighting in this room? 235 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: Are workers more productive? Oh? It turns out they are. 236 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: But then one ex post facto explanation for all these 237 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: spurious results is just that when employees know that they're 238 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,719 Speaker 1: part of an experiment, they are more productive because they 239 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,559 Speaker 1: know they're being closely scrutinized. Now, this would not apply 240 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: so much to the dogs themselves, but probably to the owners. 241 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: So in the case of the epilepsy studying dogs, Antis 242 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: writes that UH that all of the dogs in the 243 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: study were already on at least one other anti seizure medication, 244 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: and the leaveder acetam was being studied as a supplemental drug. 245 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: So one possibility is that once enrolled in a study, 246 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: pet owners may have been more consistent about making sure 247 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,600 Speaker 1: their dogs got all doses of their pre existing pretested 248 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: epilepsy medication on time. Other possible explanations what about more 249 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: attentive veterinary care. It's possible that while enrolled in the study, 250 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: the animals were we're getting special attention from from vets, 251 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: and this would be partially in line with the explanation 252 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: I was guessing about beforehand, something roughly parallel to the 253 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: effect of a reassuring doctor or nurse. Uh. And I 254 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: think it is a pre existing finding that sometimes gentle 255 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: affectionate attention from humans can help animals like dogs and 256 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: horses show fewer symptoms of discomfort or anxiety and things 257 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: like that. In some cases, you could actually have classical conditioning. Uh. Probably, 258 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: it's hard to see how it would apply to this case, 259 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: but Anti writes quote for example, rats that have regularly 260 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: been getting insulin injections will still experience blood sugar changes 261 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: if they suddenly start receiving saline injections instead. Again, I 262 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: don't think this would apply directly to the epilepsy study, 263 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: but you can imagine it applying to other studies. But 264 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: then the primary explanation favored by anthis in this article 265 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: is something called the caregiver placebo effect or the placebo 266 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: effect by proxy. And this one's pretty straightforward when you 267 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: think about it. Animals can't report or explain their own symptoms. 268 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: Understanding the symptoms experienced by an animal, whether that's something 269 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: like a seizure or whether it's something even more elusive 270 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 1: like discomfort or pain, that requires human observation of some kind, 271 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: usually reports by the pet owners, and the pet owner 272 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 1: absolutely can form expectations about improvement based on believing that 273 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: their pet is getting a treatment of some kind, even 274 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,239 Speaker 1: though their their pet might actually be in the placebo 275 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: arm of the study. They don't know that. If it's 276 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: a good if it's a well designed study, uh so 277 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: they think their pet might be receiving the actual drug. 278 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: They form expectations that the pet will be getting better, 279 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: and thus they they interpret everything they see in light 280 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: of those expectations. Because again, seizure frequency in the study 281 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: in question was measured by owner reports, and you might imagine, well, okay, 282 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's pretty clear whether a dog is 283 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: having a seizure or not. Well, you might assume that, 284 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: but in fact, pet owners are not always there to 285 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: see a seizure take place. Sometimes you have to interpret 286 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: ambiguous evidence. So the example given in the article is, 287 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: if there's a spot of saliva on the floor, is 288 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: that a sign that the dog had a seizure unobserved 289 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: and drooled on the floor or is that just nothing? 290 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: Did the dog just dripped? Rule? Because they just dripped? Rule. Uh. 291 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,600 Speaker 1: If if the owners believe their dogs are receiving a 292 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: drug that will help reduce the seizures, does that actually 293 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: make the owner less likely to interpret that evidence as 294 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: evidence of a seizure. Yeah, Okay, I see what. I 295 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: see what you're talking about here. Okay, Like I well, 296 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,679 Speaker 1: he's on the medicine, So I guess that's that's not 297 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 1: a seizure drule, that's just druel. Yeah. The article also 298 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: cites a veterinary surgeon at the University of Minnesota named 299 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: Michael Consimius who gives a really interesting example from a 300 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: different study. This was a study on anti inflammatory treatments 301 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: for arthritis in dogs, and they did a trial that 302 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: involved both subjective and objective measurements of how well this 303 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: anti inflammatory was doing to reduce reduce arthritic pain in 304 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: the limbs, and so the subjective measure was you would 305 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: ask both pet owners and veterinarians to observe the dog 306 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 1: and rate how much pain they seem to be in. 307 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: And then there were also objective measures, and this would 308 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: be having the dog walk on a on a complicated 309 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: setup of digital scales to determine how much weight the 310 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: dogs were putting on each limb while walking, because if 311 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: the dog, if one of the dog's limbs is in pain, 312 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: they will tend to put less weight on that limb. 313 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: And this study found conflicts between the subjective measures and 314 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: the objective measures. So in the placebo group, owners and 315 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: vets who thought the dog might be receiving the drug 316 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: but actually they were just getting a placebo, reported improvements, 317 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 1: but the objective measure, the scales did not show improvements. 318 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: So the in the placebo group they're getting a fake treatment. 319 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: The owners and the veterinarians are like, yeah, we think 320 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: the dog is doing better, but when you put them 321 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: on the scales, they're still not putting weight on that limb. 322 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: So the dog itself is not affected by receiving the placebo, 323 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: but the human observers are interestingly even the veterinarians. This 324 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: is interesting because when we first raised the question about 325 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: BOTHO effected animals and then when you brought up dogs here, 326 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: my first thought was, well, dogs are are highly social animals, 327 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: so perhaps there is some sort of social by namic 328 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: between the way that they're human is treating them, like 329 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: maybe it has to do lee, and maybe it has 330 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: to do with with pill pockets, like oh, I'm getting 331 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: more snacks or I'm getting more attention or something like that. 332 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: And then that of course would be something that would 333 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: not seem to readily translate into the livestock world. But 334 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 1: what we're looking at here these are examples that, if 335 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, would translate rather readily into the world 336 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,960 Speaker 1: of caring for livestock. Yeah, because it's about the human observers, 337 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: like the cow whatever is making it into these reports 338 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: that are in like anthropological texts or you know, folklore 339 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: journals or whatever. The cow doesn't actually get to write 340 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: that report that's made by humans, and it's usually going 341 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: to be like the farmers saying, yeah, my cow got 342 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: better or something like that. And they could well be 343 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: affected by caregiver placebo effect. They form expectations of efficacy, 344 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: and they interpret what they see through that lens. Another 345 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: thing is that this article reports how sometimes animal pain 346 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: is observable to one human onlooker but not to another. Again, 347 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: just based on expectations, like our emotional biases are very 348 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,920 Speaker 1: strong in this area. And and one example given would 349 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: be a you know, a pet owner brings an animal 350 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: into the vet and it was in pain before, and 351 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: the vet observes that the animal does still appear to 352 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: be in pain, but the owner says, no, no, no, 353 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: he's not he's in he's much better now. I've been 354 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: giving him these homeopathic treatments I found. And you know, 355 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: that's a mix of things. Like the pet owner, they 356 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: love their pet, so they desire to believe that the 357 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 1: beloved animal is doing better. And then on top of that, 358 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: you could have like a choice supportive bias bias too, 359 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, where you interpret reality in a way that 360 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: that supports the idea that what you have decided to 361 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: do was the right decision. So the choice supportive bias 362 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: says your selected intervention is working. And that may be 363 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: a magical treatment or a or a non science based 364 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: intervention like homeopathy or something, and that can blind you too. 365 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: Signs of distress that other unbiased onlookers could see. Yeah. Yeah, 366 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 1: because because at least you feel like you're doing something 367 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: in those cases, and or you're consultant. You may be 368 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: consulting experts in the local community that are also assuring 369 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 1: you like, yeah, this is the way to go, this 370 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,199 Speaker 1: is what will will get results. Yeah. And I think 371 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: the important thing to stress here is that this occurs. 372 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 1: You don't have to be like an uncaring you know, 373 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: companion to to your non human animal of whatever type. 374 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 1: It is like you can care very much about their 375 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: well being and have this kind of bias. It's not 376 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: like a result of being cold and unfeeling and cruel. 377 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: So just a couple of final notes on this article. 378 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: One is just a big takeaway is you should be 379 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,439 Speaker 1: careful when observing the symptoms of of a non human animal, 380 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: of a pet or whatever, uh, not to let these 381 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: kinds of biases prevent you from finding the most effective 382 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: treatment or solution. You know, whenever possible, try to look 383 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 1: for objective pieces of behavioral evidence that remove your subjective 384 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: evaluation from things. And then the other thing is about 385 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: the standards of evidence within veterinary medicine. Unfortunately, the history 386 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: of veterinary studies has included fewer double blind, placebo controlled 387 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: trials than human medicine. Because again, for a long time, 388 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: nobody really thought placebo effect would come into play in 389 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: a major way in veterinary medicine. But it looks like, 390 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: at least in some cases, it really does, especially when 391 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: that reported outcomes are based on owner's perceptions. And so 392 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: this is changing and more more evidentiary standards like this 393 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: are being introduced into veterinary medicine. But it may mean 394 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: that the evaluation of the true efficacy of veterinary medicine 395 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: has in some cases, especially when the basis is older, 396 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 1: maybe on a lower standard of evidence than in human 397 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: drug trials. But fortunately that that is changing. But anyway, 398 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: so I'm bringing all this back to thoughts about how 399 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: this could relate to like a Scottish farmer in the 400 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 1: seventeenth century who believes that his his cow is sick 401 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: or his horse is sick because it has been elf shot, 402 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: it has been you know, hit by a ferry arrow 403 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 1: and summon someone to provide a magical cure that maybe 404 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: involves neolithic flints or egg mixed with gunpowder and healing 405 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,239 Speaker 1: their cow I I wonder how it relates to that. 406 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I would guess that the specifically that last 407 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: when the caregiver placebo effect would would be a major 408 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: factor here. Yeah, yeah, I think so that seems to 409 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: be the That would seem to be the key. Though. 410 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: It also makes me wonder about the idea of a 411 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: of an inverse thing. This is not addressed in the 412 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: article at all, but a a caregiver no sebo effect. 413 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it makes me wonder how you could have 414 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: anxieties or beliefs about danger, other kinds of things taking 415 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: place purely within the mind of the animal caregiver that 416 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: give rise to spurious diagnoses of of illness or symptoms 417 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: in the animal. Like what if actually the cow was fine. 418 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: The farmer just gets freaked out about the idea that, oh, no, 419 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: something bad is happening to my cow for some reason, 420 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: and and that brings on the illusion of distress, which 421 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: could then be treated by some kind of magical intervention, 422 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 1: and then what do you know of the cow's fine afterwards? Yeah. 423 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: This is especially possible given some of the the linked 424 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: or perceived to be linked activities to elf shot, the 425 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: cases where humans did something they shouldn't have to attract 426 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: the attention of the elves, be it, you know, trumping 427 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: on sacred ground, cutting down of a sacred tree, um 428 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: or or or so something of this nature, um or 429 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: even just the finding of the elf ere like this 430 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 1: was curious. I was out with my cattle and I 431 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: found this artifact on the ground. It's clearly an artifact 432 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: of the elves. I better check on my cattle and 433 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: see how they're doing. Oh, this one's not doing too well. 434 00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I didn't make that connection with the picking 435 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 1: up of the flint, but yeah, that makes sense. Thank you, 436 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: Thank you. Now, there was a paper we talked about 437 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: a little bit in the previous episode that I wanted 438 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: to come back to and just mention a couple of 439 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: more interesting little stories from uh. It was that paper 440 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: called elf Shot Cattle by Thomas Davidson that was published 441 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,159 Speaker 1: in the journal Antiquity in nineteen fifty six. Remember, this 442 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: is the one that was collecting a lot of those 443 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 1: reports about elf shot. One of the things that caught 444 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: my attention was the claim that a lot of times 445 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: these injuries from elf shot are not inflicted directly by 446 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 1: fairies or elves themselves. Davidson cites an author named Luid 447 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: writing that there's a belief among some that fairies have 448 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: to use humans as intermediaries in order to inflict these injuries, 449 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 1: since the fairies have little power to cause direct physical 450 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: injury to animal bodies them selves. So sometimes these stories 451 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: say humans are like sucked up into the air by 452 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 1: fairies and then given fairy weapons and then forced to 453 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: shoot at men or cattle. M So okay, so sort 454 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: of possession going on here. Yeah. One example of this 455 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,439 Speaker 1: is a story called the Tale of Black Donald of 456 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: the Fairy Throng Uh. And this is a story where 457 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: there's this guy named Donald and he's out plowing. He's 458 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,719 Speaker 1: plowing the land, he's working in the furrows, and this 459 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: is on the Aisle of Tyree, which is off the 460 00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: coast of Scotland. And Donald's he's plowing and he gets 461 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: uh sucked up by a fairy convoy and uh, and 462 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: then they force him to drop an arrow from the 463 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: sky that kills a speckled cow. And this actually connects 464 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: with some of the critical stuff I was reading about 465 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: the elf shot tradition, which says that actually in a 466 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of these stories, it is being alleger that it's 467 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,359 Speaker 1: he whoman's who are doing the inflicting, like witches or 468 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: something who are inflicting damage with these weapons rather than 469 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 1: elves directly. Interesting and in the end this it gets 470 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: into a common trope in many cultures of the of 471 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: sort of like the outsider within somebody within the community, 472 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: either somebody from outside the community or somebody within the 473 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: community that has been corrupted somehow. Yeah. Yeah, one thing 474 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,360 Speaker 1: I had to mention just because it was funny. There 475 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: there's a long section of this paper that talks about 476 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: alleged cures for elf shot, and one is a recorded 477 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: anecdote of a wise woman curing a cow in the 478 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 1: Shetlands by asking the crofter, the farmer, to bring her 479 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: a Bible, and he brings the Bible, and she rips 480 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: pages out of the Bible and balls them up into 481 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: a pellet and then crams the Bible page pellet into 482 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: a dimple in the cow's skin. Then there's another one 483 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,360 Speaker 1: I have to share because it involves crabs and and 484 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: raises a mr for me that I cannot solve. So 485 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: maybe the listeners have some input on this. So this 486 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 1: is from a source Davidson sites called Shetland folklore. This 487 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: is a book by Spence, and I'm going to read 488 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: directly from Davidson summary here. Oh, I'm sorry, this is 489 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:19,399 Speaker 1: still about traditions in the Shetlands. Quote. A variant prescription 490 00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: from the same area directs the wise woman to take tar, 491 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: a needle, a bible, a fire brand, and some fairy crabs. 492 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: Waving the burning brand, she walked three times witter shans 493 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: round the cow. That means counterclockwise three times witter shans 494 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: round the cow, jabbing the animal with the needle, waving 495 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: a leaf of the Bible over its back, and muttering 496 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: an incantation. The firebrand was placed in a pot of 497 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: tar and set at the cow's head so the fumes 498 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: would make her cough. She was then given the fairy 499 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 1: crabs to eat alive. The ashes of the fire brand 500 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: were later mixed with the tar into three pills, which 501 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: were administered to the animal on three successive mornings. What 502 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: so involves eating the fairy crabs alive, it says she, 503 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: And I'm sorry, I'm not sure if that means the 504 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: cow or the wise woman. I think that means the cow. Yeah, 505 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: I remember reading this in the source during the initial 506 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: research phase. And I could not figure out what fairy 507 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,440 Speaker 1: crabs where. I was like, yeah, it was I was trying, 508 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: my mind was struggling to form. I was just imagining 509 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: like a glowing blue crab. I was confused too, and 510 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: I tried to look this up. There is an animal 511 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 1: called a fairy crab, you can see it if you 512 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: google that phrase. But it's clearly not what this is 513 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: referring to, because it's a species of squat lobster called 514 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: the scientific name is Laurea gianni and it's native to 515 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: the Pacific. It's found like off the coast of Australia 516 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: and UH and Indonesia. I think, so this is clearly 517 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: not what they're talking about in the Shetlands. And I 518 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: was trying to find more information and I just could not. 519 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: So I wonder if this refers to I don't know, 520 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: if this is a local Shetland name for a certain 521 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: type of animal, like an actual crab or some type 522 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 1: of insect or something. I really have no idea. Yeah, 523 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: I can imagine it going in different directions, some sort 524 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: of novel crab that's found on the shore or or 525 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: turned up in nets, or or indeed something that is 526 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: found uh. You know, in in streams, or is not 527 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: a crab at all, but some sort of an insect 528 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: with some sort of folk medicine properties to it. Or 529 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean certainly we have examples in in plenty of 530 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: cultures where something is named after an animal, but it's 531 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: not itself an animal. It could be you know, you 532 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: can imagine a situation where the fairy crab is actually 533 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: some sort of a root, uh something into that effect. 534 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: So there's so many different directions that could go in 535 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: not not knowing exactly what this is referring to. Well, 536 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,080 Speaker 1: hey listeners, if you've got inside on this, you know 537 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: what the fairy crabs are, right in. One last subject 538 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: that Davidson brings up with respect to elf shot is 539 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: the idea of of curved plow furrows and ridges in 540 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: order to quote Wander the fairy, which I found so interesting. 541 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: It's the idea that if you you go throughout Scotland 542 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: and you look at some old cultivated fields, you'll find, 543 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, these places that are uh, they're they're dug 544 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: with a what's known as like a ridge and furrow system, 545 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 1: So you'll see a series of basically you know, lines 546 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: where like you'd have a plowed area and then like 547 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,719 Speaker 1: a sort of ridge of of moved earth piled up 548 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: in between them. And an interesting thing about a lot 549 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,680 Speaker 1: of these is they are created with with so that 550 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: the ridges and the furrows are not straight lines, but 551 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: are curved or crooked or s shaped even. And it 552 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: is believed by some that the purpose of this is 553 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 1: to confuse or quote wander the ferry to uh, to 554 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: maybe lead the ferry off course or lead the elf 555 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: off course. This is not the only system, by the way, 556 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,640 Speaker 1: that would use this, Like Davidson notes that a lot 557 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: of amulets that are designed for protection against fairies have 558 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: a rays of kind of spiral patterns or can you know, 559 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: complex whirls within them, or labyrinths or something, and that 560 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: this is designed to confuse the evil spirits, to kind 561 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: of send them on a on a maze like journey 562 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: that will lead them astray and keep them from harming you. 563 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 1: These If if you haven't seen these ridgin furrow features, 564 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: definitely look them up to do an image search, because 565 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: you can see lots of wonderful aerial photographs of this 566 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: sort of thing. And yeah, you can sort of imagine 567 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: the trail of the of the elf going astray here. Oh, 568 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: some of the ones you're looking at are the curved ones, 569 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: because some are just straight, but others some are just straight. 570 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: But I was looking at one in particular here where 571 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: you do see you kind of see a mix in 572 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: this particular one. You see the different areas of land 573 00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: and definite curves in some areas where and one kind 574 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: of has like almost like a fern look because you 575 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,560 Speaker 1: have the line going down the middle and you have 576 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: some like like different wavings on each side. So the 577 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: magical understanding here again is that this, well, it could 578 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: throw fairies off just generally because you know, you you 579 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: make twisting paths in order to confuse evil spirits. But 580 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: the other thing would be it doesn't allow them to 581 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,840 Speaker 1: get a clear straight line shot at the cattle, like 582 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 1: at the oxen that you're using to plow the field. Yeah, 583 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: this is strange, Like this idea of the elf is 584 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 1: kind of like this. Uh, you know, I guess you 585 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: look at different folklore systems, it's like you want to 586 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: avoid doing things that draw attention to yourself. You know, 587 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: we definitely see that with the elf and fairy folk traditions, 588 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: and in this part of the world with the wearing 589 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 1: of green, which we've discussed before. Don't wear the green 590 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: that's the color of the elves or the fairies. They'll 591 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 1: come at you. You also see that with editions of 592 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: the Evil Eye in the Middle East, where there are 593 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: various things like you should not do because this invisible 594 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 1: nefarious forces out there in the world, and you do 595 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: not want it aware of your presence or your fortune. 596 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 1: So you don't. Don't, don't get on its radar, don't 597 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 1: have direct lines leading to you, be that line something 598 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: like you know, you're shouting about how beautiful your child is. 599 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 1: Um you know, in the case of some of the 600 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: Evil Eye traditions in particularly in Judaism, I remember hearing 601 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: about reading about um or or in this case, like 602 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 1: a physical line through the altered landscape. I think this 603 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: type of belief is still present even in like modern 604 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: day and Christianity. Like I remember when I was a 605 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: kid hearing about the dangers of playing with a weigia board, 606 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: and the idea was it attracts demonic attention. I mean, 607 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,839 Speaker 1: it's literally like the it's it's like when you play 608 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: with a wegia board. It's not so much something about 609 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: the board as evil, but it. It's sort of like 610 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:01,279 Speaker 1: puts up a beacon to demons that says, hey, I'm available. Uh, 611 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 1: you know, pay attention to me, and they will hone 612 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: in on you because you have done that. Yeah. Oh. 613 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: In quick note, I mentioned Judaism and the evil eye 614 00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: and so forth. The evil eyes not necessarily like a 615 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: part of Judaism. I don't want to imply that, but 616 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: it is something that is sort of in the folklore 617 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: traditions of various people in the Middle East, including you'll 618 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: see that in Judaic culture. Yeah. And certainly we see 619 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: similar site case with with this here because we have 620 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,560 Speaker 1: people who are discussing that have taken you know, that 621 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:31,240 Speaker 1: have converted to Christianity, and that they're still they're still 622 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,480 Speaker 1: practicing beliefs, they're still engaging in belief of the elves, 623 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: but they're also incorporating in some of these Christian traditions 624 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: like well, maybe maybe you know, wat up a Bible 625 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: page and stick it into that furrow in the cow 626 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: and that will help to this is this next thing 627 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: is not really addressed in Davidson, but I was wondering 628 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: about this, uh, because I was reading about the ridge 629 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: and furrow system elsewhere after after reading this passage from Davidson, 630 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: and it seems to me that sometime the strips that 631 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: are plowed in this system are curved for totally mundane 632 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,279 Speaker 1: reasons that have nothing to do with magical beliefs. I 633 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,399 Speaker 1: think that they're they're often curved just because of Uh. 634 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,040 Speaker 1: It was a sort of necessary consequence of the types 635 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 1: of plow rigging and and oxen pulling teams that they 636 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: used at the time. They would lead to a farrow 637 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: or ridge being kind of like curved off at each 638 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: end every time the team turned around to make a 639 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,360 Speaker 1: new line. Uh. And that makes me wonder if something 640 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: like twisting twisting in these rows could have originally been 641 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: a totally mundane thing that somebody saw and then in 642 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,480 Speaker 1: trying to explain why it was like that without understanding it, 643 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,600 Speaker 1: they came up with this explanation about confusing the ferries 644 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: and then afterwards did did it like that on purpose? 645 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: It's like like somebody like that. The landowner whoever comes 646 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 1: out to check on the work is like, Dale, what's 647 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: going on with these ridges and furrows? Look and look 648 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 1: at it. It's just like I can tell it's crooked. 649 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: And Dale was like, well, do you want the fairies 650 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: coming straight at you. I didn't think, so You're welcome. 651 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: This of course also reminds me of on one hand 652 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 1: this and this may have well be connected, uh, the 653 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: the idea that vampires might be deterred by hanging some 654 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: sort of a nodded item or or carefully woven item 655 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: out for them, like a complex pattern that will draw 656 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: their attention and they have to deal with and maybe 657 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: get they'll either spend all their time doing that and 658 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 1: leave you alone, or perhaps even get caught in the 659 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: sunlight the loose track of time. And then of course 660 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: I can't help but think of crop circles as well, 661 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,800 Speaker 1: which again, as we've discussed I think we've discussed this 662 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 1: in the show before. I mean crop crop circles are 663 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 1: pretty much put to bed as a you know, is 664 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,799 Speaker 1: the work of human actors. But thinking about like sort 665 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,520 Speaker 1: of the draw to do this to a field, like 666 00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: the human um intention to do this, and there's there 667 00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: are several factors that can play into that someone which 668 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: may actually they come up in our next episode of 669 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: such to blow your mind. But um, but the the 670 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: idea of like just seeing that field, like I wonder 671 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: if there's some sort of draw that like, no, the 672 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 1: lines are too too perfect. Everything is just too pristine, 673 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: like this this this, this land has been too finely transformed. 674 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: We gotta get some swirls in there. We gotta get 675 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: some circles, you know. Yeah, that is a good comparison. 676 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: I didn't think you were going to crop circles though. 677 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to mention the jung she 678 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 1: being uh being warded off by spilling glutinous rice on 679 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 1: the floor because they'll I think they'll be counting the grains, right. Oh, yeah, 680 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: that that also, that's a good point as well. I've 681 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,800 Speaker 1: forgot about that one, something about yeah, the the inhuman 682 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: analytical mind of the of of non human beings and folklore, 683 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: and that there they can be led astray by and 684 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: by either random randomized patterns or things of of human 685 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 1: creation that have some sort of eloquence to them, which 686 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: is kind of ironic given that we're talking about situations 687 00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: where human beings may in some cases of just like 688 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,439 Speaker 1: completely flipped their wig over finding an old flint arrow 689 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: in the dirt. So I I guess it cuts both winds. Now, 690 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: there's one more paper. I wanted to briefly mention that 691 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,280 Speaker 1: gets way more into the weeds about a particular text 692 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: that is believed or has been believed to reference elf shot. 693 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: But I thought this was interesting too. So this was 694 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: a paper by a professor of English at the University 695 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: of Leeds named Alaric Hall called Calling the Shots the 696 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: Old English Remedy Gift Horse of Scotland CE and Anglo 697 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: Saxon elf Shot, published in two thousand five. So this 698 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,600 Speaker 1: paper is mainly an attempt to critically re examine an 699 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: Anglo Saxon text called Gift Horse of Scotland c. Which 700 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: is a passage from a medieval Anglo Saxon medical text 701 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 1: that has been widely interpreted as being about elf shot. 702 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,319 Speaker 1: The title gift Horse of Scott and c. Translates to 703 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: if a horse be and then the word is off scotten, 704 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 1: And the question is what does of Scott mean? It's 705 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 1: been traditionally translated as elf shot if a horse be 706 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: elf shot. Hall argues that it should not be understood 707 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,479 Speaker 1: that way, and yet there are still references to elf 708 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: attacks within the passage. So this is Hall's translation of 709 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: this text, which is interesting in itself. If a horse 710 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: be off Scott take, then a dagger who's halft is 711 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: of fallow Ox's horn, and in which there are three 712 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: brass nails. And then there's a term that every time 713 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: is rendered as right slash. Inscribe, I'm just gonna say, inscribe. 714 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:48,279 Speaker 1: Inscribe on the horse on the forehead, Christ's mark, so 715 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: it bleeds. Inscribe then Christ's mark on the spine, and 716 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 1: on each of the limbs which you can grasp. This, 717 00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: shall you do take a staff strike on the act, 718 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: then the horse will be well. And inscribe on the 719 00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 1: daggers handle. These words been a de cite omnia opera 720 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: domini dominum, which means bless all the works of the 721 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 1: Lord of lords. Should it be Alf's which is on it, 722 00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: this will do as a remedy for it. And so 723 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: Hall makes the argument in this paper that the primary 724 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: condition being described in this text under the word off 725 00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: scotten should not be translated as elf shot, as it 726 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: traditionally has been. But it's something like badly pained. It's 727 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:42,880 Speaker 1: more more mundane condition that is prompting this entire remedy. However, 728 00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: even if that's correct, the last line of the remedy 729 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: does mention the idea of this word alf the a 730 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: E combined vowel and then l f e uh. Though 731 00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: this sentence is also kind of difficult to translate, the 732 00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: one that's got the alfh in it. I think that 733 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 1: the understanding that makes the most senses, this whole remedy 734 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: is for regular bad pain and horses, and then there's 735 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,880 Speaker 1: an additional remedy, the one that's riding on the daggers 736 00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: handle the words bless all the works of the Lord 737 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 1: of lords. Uh. That additional remedy is like a special 738 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: extra dose of holiness that should be applied if the 739 00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: cause of the horses pain is injury by an elf. 740 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: Though it doesn't explain how you tell the difference between 741 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: normal bad pain and bad pain caused by an elf. 742 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,879 Speaker 1: You know, of course, the the elf injury being even 743 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: more unholy and requiring more holiness or more piety in 744 00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: order to undo either way you shake it. From a 745 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,800 Speaker 1: modern perspective, it's a lot of uh cutting and striking 746 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,040 Speaker 1: of a pain horse. Yeah, jeez, you feel bad for 747 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,880 Speaker 1: the horse now, as we uh, As we go to 748 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,399 Speaker 1: close out this look at elf shot, I did want 749 00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,839 Speaker 1: to come back to some basic questions, some of which 750 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:01,240 Speaker 1: we've already got into, concerning the art theology of elf shot, 751 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: who were the people who made these artifacts and how 752 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: did they get to the regions where the artifacts were found? 753 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: And then of course you know, interpreted and reinterpreted within 754 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: these folkloric traditions. Uh. This of course is a broad 755 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,319 Speaker 1: question because as we've we've mentioned already, we're talking about 756 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,680 Speaker 1: multiple areas. We're talking about locations throughout the British Isles 757 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,640 Speaker 1: and even outside of the British Isles. But just limiting 758 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: the question to the British Isles, were still looking at 759 00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: close to a million years of occupation by various human species, 760 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:32,520 Speaker 1: including Neanderthals. And as for the how they got there, 761 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: the predominant theories involved land bridges between Europe and Britain 762 00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,920 Speaker 1: that were president at the time. And regarding Ireland, I've 763 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,840 Speaker 1: seen hypotheses that involve boats, land bridges and also ice bridges. 764 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: But just to give a few examples that really sort 765 00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,680 Speaker 1: of drive home at the time we're talking about here, Uh, 766 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 1: there are stone tool and footprints in Norfolk. The date 767 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:59,000 Speaker 1: back and estibated nine hundred thousand years uh, and these 768 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 1: would be the work and the and or the footprints 769 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,360 Speaker 1: of Homo antecessor. Notable here are the Happisburg footprints in Norfolk, 770 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: and also a black flint hand axe was also found 771 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: in this area. So Homo antecessor they were makers of 772 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: simple stone tools, and it looks like many experts think 773 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,080 Speaker 1: that they might not have had mastery of fire. By 774 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: four thousand BC, e Neolithic culture was firmly established on 775 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: the British Isles and lasted till roughly Uh, it's just 776 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: you know, the rough time period of our histories, uh, 777 00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: two thousand, five hundred BC. And of course between three 778 00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: thousand BC and two thousand BC we see the construction 779 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: of Stonehenge, one, of course the most famous, if not 780 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: the most famous testament to prehistoric Britain. And of course 781 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:50,759 Speaker 1: even Stonehenge gets wrapped up into various folklore, traditions and 782 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:56,640 Speaker 1: folkloric interpretations and reinterpretations that involved at times the wizard Merlin, 783 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: but also the Christian devil, and even during the Roman period, 784 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,560 Speaker 1: which would have been a roughly forty three CE two 785 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: four tense, the Roman sky god Kalis. More realistically or 786 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: more on this sort of you know, realistic interpretation and 787 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,319 Speaker 1: reinterpretation standpoint, it was at one point thought to be 788 00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: credited to the work of Druidic culture. But this culture 789 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: didn't exist till three d b C, which would have 790 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,280 Speaker 1: been too late, so the stones were already ancient history 791 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:30,359 Speaker 1: to the Druids. Now, another example that I found really 792 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 1: interesting of talking about found arrowheads uh in the British Isles. 793 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:40,280 Speaker 1: In archaeologists from the University of Reading discovered a four thousand, 794 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:44,320 Speaker 1: five hundred year old flint arrowhead a few miles from Stonehenge, 795 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,320 Speaker 1: and according to David Dawson, director of the Wiltshire Museum, 796 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 1: this particular arrowhead is not only finally preserved, but incredibly fragile, 797 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: suggesting that it was never actually intended for use in 798 00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: war or hunting, but was rather ceremonial or decorative and 799 00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,240 Speaker 1: or decorative um this was. You can look up images 800 00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:08,200 Speaker 1: of this. There was some news articles at the time. 801 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,840 Speaker 1: The arrowhead was unearthed in two parts, two different digs, 802 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: five years apart, and it is quite elegent looking. It 803 00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:19,320 Speaker 1: has like one it has barbs, but one really long 804 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: barb and elongated barb on one side. So I don't 805 00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: know about you, but I find that really interesting because 806 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: I think it's easy to think of folkloric interpretation of 807 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,480 Speaker 1: found objects to be a luxury of later civilizations on 808 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,440 Speaker 1: the British hiles to think supernaturally about about these about 809 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,440 Speaker 1: these items. But certainly, and certainly there's a lot we 810 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,759 Speaker 1: don't know about concerning pre Roman and prehistoric Britain. But 811 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,360 Speaker 1: even of forty years ago, uh, this find would suggest 812 00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,439 Speaker 1: that people here were already capable of sublime interpretations and 813 00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,839 Speaker 1: uh and perhaps mystical meanings for their own created artifacts. 814 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,360 Speaker 1: That you could have this this sacred arrow, uh that 815 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: wasn't found, that was made, but some of the same 816 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,040 Speaker 1: energy that goes into the the the interpretation of these artifacts, 817 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,279 Speaker 1: you know, thousands of years later, was already present in 818 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,400 Speaker 1: the cultures that made their home here, right. And so 819 00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 1: we don't know what it would have been used for, 820 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: but it's clear that it would not have been useful 821 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: for actual shooting of an arrow. So you know, it 822 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,600 Speaker 1: could be decorative, it could be medicinal, some kind of amulet. 823 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:27,279 Speaker 1: It could be magical or ceremonial. We don't know, but 824 00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,520 Speaker 1: in any case, it would be a symbolic arrowhead rather 825 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: than one used for the literal, direct mundane purpose. Yeah, 826 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,360 Speaker 1: and so you can imagine at some point in in 827 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:43,200 Speaker 1: history after this point, uh, if someone were to find 828 00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 1: an arrow had like this especially, I mean any arrow 829 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: had obviously any kind of novel lump of stone um 830 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: could find itself interpreted as an elf arrow and and 831 00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:57,800 Speaker 1: and incorporated into elf shot folklore. But imagine if you 832 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,799 Speaker 1: found this, you know, clearly and an arrow that that 833 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: looks too fine to be shot. You know, that's almost 834 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: ephemeral in its construction, Like who would make this? Why 835 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,080 Speaker 1: would they make this? Clearly this is the work of 836 00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,239 Speaker 1: the elves. But also I think it's just yeah, it's 837 00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,799 Speaker 1: just worth remembering the the deep history of of of 838 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,960 Speaker 1: people on the British Isles. You know, it might not 839 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,640 Speaker 1: be as deep as uh as some other areas. I like, 840 00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:24,399 Speaker 1: you know, you're looking at what on France, I think 841 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: it's what one point fifty seven million years ago we 842 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,960 Speaker 1: have some of the earliest known evidence of human beings. 843 00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:35,240 Speaker 1: But still you have human species on the British Isles. Uh. 844 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,080 Speaker 1: You know that as early as almost a million years ago, 845 00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,319 Speaker 1: different species, different cultures, different waves of technology and arrivals 846 00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:47,360 Speaker 1: in the subsequent centuries and millennium millennia, and of course 847 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:51,800 Speaker 1: different waves of interpretation and reinterpretation of what came before. 848 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 1: All Right, we're gonna go and close it out there, 849 00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:56,839 Speaker 1: but obviously we'd love to hear from everyone out there. 850 00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:59,799 Speaker 1: We'd especially love to hear from folks listening to the 851 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: show oh on the British Aisles, or folks who have 852 00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: spent time on the British Isles. Perhaps you have some 853 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,520 Speaker 1: tidbits some local lore to share with us. If so, 854 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: we'd love to hear from you. Reminder that Stuff to 855 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind is a primarily a science podcast that 856 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,319 Speaker 1: publishes on Tuesdays and Thursdays and the Stuff to Blow 857 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: Your Mind podcast feed but on Monday's we do a 858 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:25,280 Speaker 1: listener mail episode where we read various missives from our listeners. 859 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,520 Speaker 1: On Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or monster fact. 860 00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: On Friday's we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time 861 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: to set aside most serious concerns and just talk about 862 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,640 Speaker 1: a weird film. Huge thanks as always to our excellent 863 00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,920 Speaker 1: audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to 864 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode 865 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future, 866 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,880 Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at 867 00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff 868 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: to blow your mind. It's production I Heart Radio. For 869 00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,239 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio. This is the I 870 00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listening to 871 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.