WEBVTT - #334 Jason Flom with Anthony Sims 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.080 When we first released this episode on September eighth, twenty 0:00:03.120 --> 0:00:06.600 twenty one, Anthony Simms had already spent twenty two years 0:00:06.640 --> 0:00:08.959 in prison and was hoping to bring some much needed 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:12.920 attention to this horrendous injustice. At the time his passed, 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:17.680 the freedom were uncertain. Since then, some monumental changes have occurred. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.360 For this updated episode, we spoke again with Anthony and 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.279 his legal team. You'll hear this episode as it was 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:27.760 originally released, but with brand new content to pick up 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:33.800 where we left off. On eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, a 0:00:33.840 --> 0:00:36.800 woman named Rachel claims to have seen her neighbors Julius 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:40.839 Graves and Charlie Winbush talking. Charleiku was telling her fiance 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.040 Graves about how a man named Lee run Chen, who 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.040 worked at the Chinese restaurant up the block, mister Hings, 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:51.720 had touched her inappropriately. Graves replied that he would scare him. 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.920 Later that day, Julius Graves, his fiance's cousin, and another 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.880 younger friend had a few drinks with Graves's friend, Anthony 0:00:58.920 --> 0:01:02.440 Simms as they listened music by Anthony's car. As the 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.720 evening wrapped up, Graves asked Anthony to drive him down 0:01:05.720 --> 0:01:09.280 the block to mister Hinks. Oblivious to any issue with Chen, 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.880 Anthony agreed they went into the restaurant when it is 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:17.279 believed that Graves shot and killed Lee run Chen. In shock, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.680 Anthony fled alone while Graves and the two younger guys 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:23.840 returned to Graves's apartment, wiped the gun clean, figured out 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:26.000 where to stash it, and began to conjure up a 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.480 story to deflect blame from Graves and onto Anthony Simms. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:32.559 With Graves at a number of his friends and family 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:37.080 supporting this phony narrative, investigators set their sights on Anthony. 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.520 Only one witness came forward independently who was neither coerced 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:45.880 nor friends and family of Julius Graves, Graves's neighbor Rachel, 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.920 who was on the phone outside of mister Hinks during 0:01:48.920 --> 0:01:52.120 the shooting and saw Graves running from the restaurant with 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:55.680 a soft off shotgun in his hand. Yet her statement 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:59.520 was ignored by investigators and hidden from the defense, and 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:04.000 as a result, Anthony Simms continues to serve twenty five 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:08.320 years to life. This is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.720 Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.839 and today if you hear my voice sounds sort of down. 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.840 I mean, this is one of the most troubling wrongful 0:02:30.880 --> 0:02:34.840 conviction cases that I've ever seen in twenty eight years 0:02:34.840 --> 0:02:37.480 of doing this work, which is almost as long as 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:41.000 Anthony Simms has been locked up for a crime he 0:02:42.080 --> 0:02:45.320 obviously didn't commit. First of all, I want to introduce 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.880 the two attorneys who are so devoted to this case 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.520 and to this man, Jonathan Hiles and Thomas Hoffman. Thank 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:53.440 you both for being here. 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:56.080 Thank you, Thank you for doing this Jason. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.920 And now of course saving the best for last. And 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.760 I'm just so sorry that you're here under these circumstances, 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:05.840 but I'm honestly honored that you're here with us today 0:03:06.040 --> 0:03:09.760 on the podcast. So Anthony Simms, welcome to Rafel Conviction. 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:10.680 Thank you. 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.880 And Anthony, of course, is now a forty five year 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.400 old man, twenty four years into a twenty five to 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.280 life sentence for a murder he didn't commit. Now, this 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.519 began back in nineteen ninety eight, but I want to 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.200 go back even further than that. Anthony, where did you 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:30.880 grow up and what was your childhood like? Was it 0:03:30.919 --> 0:03:32.000 a happy childhood? 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:36.360 Yes, I grew up in Brooklyn, York, and I grow 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.000 of a mother, father and my two older brothers, and 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.840 we had was a very happy, loving family. We would 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:45.120 do a lot of fun activities together, go on vacations. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.520 I remember every Sunday was family day. 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.120 And leading up to when this awful crime occurred, you 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.960 had kids of Beyonce at that time. What was life 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:55.440 like for you? 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:58.160 I live what I thought was a normal life. I 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:00.840 worked for Bell Atlantic Telephone company. You know, he stole 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.760 a phone lines and provided doubts on the customers. I 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.160 live with my fiance Keisha and my two sons at 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:06.520 the town. 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.000 So this brings us to May eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.760 when you, Anthony, witnessed a terrible crime. There was a 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.640 Chinese restaurant, Mister Hings, which was down the block from 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.120 where your former friend Julius Grace lived, and around ten 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.000 o'clock that night, a man named Lee Runschen, who worked 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:27.200 at Mister Hings, was shot and killed. But earlier that day, 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.320 before any of that happened, you thought you were just 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:32.920 going to swing by Graves's apartment to show him this 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.520 new car you bought your fiance Keisha. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.000 Julius Graves was at that time my best friend. I 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.560 wanted to show him the car, and I bought my 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.400 wife this a process, So I drove to his house 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:45.520 at that town. He asked me to drive him to 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:47.960 the liquor store. I went to the regular store and 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.280 bought some beer. We was talking. I was letting the 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:54.360 music play from my car radio, and then his two 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.799 friends came over, his fiance's cousin Derek and then later 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:02.039 on his friend Louis, and they was listening to music 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.880 with us. And I want to say, like around ten o'clock, 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.279 it was getting late. I wanted to go home show 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:10.680 my wife the cause, and I wanted to be home 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:13.920 with my sons. So Julius asked me to drive him 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.599 to them Chinese restaurant. So I thought this is a 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:20.480 weird request because he lived down around a corner from 0:05:20.480 --> 0:05:22.279 the restaurant, and I thought he could have just walked. 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.360 So I said, I listen, I was drinking a couple 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.000 of beers. Let me go to the thought about some 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:27.919 breast minds, because I don't like driving around like that. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:30.560 I remember Julius saying, listen, and I'm going to the house. 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:32.760 I'm gonna go check with Charlie, which is his girlfriend 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.440 at the time, to see if she wanted anything from 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.760 the store as well. So I said, all right, so 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:39.760 I can only assun him. That's the time that he 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.520 got the weapon. And when I got back to my car, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.719 Julius was sitting in my passenger seat and his two 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:48.120 little friends were sitting in the back. They know that 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:49.760 I didn't expect him to be in a car because 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.640 they looked at me with this look like, all right, well, 0:05:52.680 --> 0:05:54.480 we're just going to go to this restaurant with you. 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:56.320 So I didn't think nothing. I very I got in 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.200 the car and I drove him to them Chinese restaurant. 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.920 When I got it out of the restaurant, I started 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.839 looking around for the menus and stuff to see what 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:06.880 I was going to purchase for my wife. The next 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:08.719 thing I know, I saw Julius come in the store 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:12.279 with like a weird expression on his face, and almost 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.880 immediately he resent his fans and pulled out a soda 0:06:15.000 --> 0:06:18.719 sode gun, and I remember thinking like, what the hell 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:20.120 was going on and where did he even get that 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:22.080 gun from? I asked, I said, what the hell are 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.480 you doing? Are you crazy? Julius said, he said no, 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:28.839 approached the counter, pointed the gun out one of the 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.440 workers and pulled the trigger and I couldn't believe it. 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.320 I fell to blood rush for my body and all 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:37.839 I remember at that time just running out the store, 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:41.240 getting in my car. Julius jumped in there too, and 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:43.640 I said get out. I kicked everybody. I said, everybody, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:46.960 get out of my car, and I Joe Hooman told 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.960 Keisha what happened. That was the worst night of my life. 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.719 Yeah, it would be the worst night of almost anyone's 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.279 life to witness something like that. 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:58.719 I got home, I got on the phone and I 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:00.839 called them and I, so, what the hell is wrong 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.039 with you? Probably curts him. I said some other things following, Basically, 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:06.120 I want to know why did he put me in 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.760 that situation? Why did he allow me to walk into that? 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:11.520 Why didn't he come in? What was going on? Maybe 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:12.760 he thought I would talk him out of it. I 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:17.760 don't know, but he just kept apologizing and definitely told 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:19.840 me that you know the person that he found out. 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:22.320 I can't believe it. And I said, Julius, don't ever 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.160 call me again. I don't want to hear from you 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.720 no more. I just wanted to try to separate my 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:27.320 cell phone. 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:32.320 So it turns out that Julius Graves had a motive, 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.840 and that is that Graves was upset that mister Chen, 0:07:37.000 --> 0:07:40.760 who worked at the Chinese restaurant, had reportedly touched the 0:07:40.880 --> 0:07:45.680 hand of Graves's Beyonce Sharlee earlier in the day of 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.600 the murder, that he had touched her hand inappropriately. She 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.760 was upset about this, she told Graves, and Graves said 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.920 that he would go to the restaurant and scare the victim. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:00.120 We know he did a lot more than that, but 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.640 that appears to have been the motive that we didn't 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:05.640 find out until many years later. Now, what was known 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.200 at the time is that after the murder, after Anthony 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:13.320 got Graves and his two friends, Derek Dollop and Louis Cologne, 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:16.760 to leave the car, it is undisputed that Graves took 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.480 the shotgun used in the murder, went back to the 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.640 apartment where he was staying, feverishly wiped off the shotgun 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:26.760 to get his fingerprints off of it, and then gave 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.600 the gun to his friend Louis Cologne to hide from police. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.440 And Louis, by the way, was only fourteen years old 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.600 at the time. Graves's excuse for doing this is that 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:42.160 he wasn't thinking. That was his only justification. 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:42.520 Now. 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:46.160 Furthermore, this murder weapon, the sawed off shotgun, had previously 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.640 been kept in a lock box in the apartment where 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:54.559 Graves was staying, and Graves and his friend Derek Dollop, 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:58.480 who was also his fiance's cousin, admitted even that they 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.080 knew the shotgun was kept there and had seen it 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:05.199 there before. So all the evidence suggested that the shotgun 0:09:05.559 --> 0:09:08.800 belonged to Graves, and it is undisputed he had handled 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:11.000 it right after the murder. 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:14.400 Occurred, right and the physical evidence from the scene later 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.920 proved that this sought off shotgun from Graves' apartment was 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:20.640 used in the murder. So this is where we start 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.120 seeing a narrative being formed from the Graves camp to 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:27.680 try to deflect responsibility for this murder away from Graves 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.640 and toward Anthony. And initially it will seem like a 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:35.000 lot of witnesses came forward to support what was really 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.760 just coming straight from Graves's imagination and what later became 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:42.000 the prosecution's narrative. But it will become clear as we 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:44.719 move along here that none of these witnesses were to 0:09:44.800 --> 0:09:47.080 be believed, they should have been believed for two reasons. One, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.400 it's discovered later that these eyewitness accounts are initially riddled 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.520 with glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that were then changed to 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:59.880 fit a cohesive narrative in time for trial, which is, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.520 it's just not typical what a group of people are 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:05.680 telling the truths obviously right. And two, most of the 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:08.880 witnesses are friends and family of Graves. There are only 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:12.559 two witnesses, two who are not Graves's friends or family, 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:16.080 one of whom was coerced by police into an ambiguous 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:19.320 statement that nonetheless helped the prosecution's case at the time 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.320 of trial, and the other is the only independent witness 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:25.199 who bravely came forward to tell the truth about Graves's 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.000 motive and having seen him running from the restaurant with 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.720 a gun. However, none of this info about these two 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.559 witnesses was known to the defensive trial, but we'll get 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.560 to that later. Now. Right now, let's focus on the 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:41.760 dubious narrative coming from the Graves camp. So, the day 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:45.840 after the murder, Sharleek's brother, William Robertson told police a 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.120 second hand story from Sharleek that Sharleek had said that 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:52.920 Anthony had come by earlier the day of the murder 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.520 and taken the shotgun out of the apartment. Then comes 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:59.000 the narrative from Graves about the night of the murder. Okay, ready, so, 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.880 according to Graves, Anthony dropped by the apartment around six 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.680 pm and they had a few drinks. Anthony allegedly showed 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:08.800 Graves a shotgun that he had in his trunk, a 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.679 shotgun that Graves should have recognized as the one from 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.400 his apartment. Now, at some point, Anthony and Graves are 0:11:15.480 --> 0:11:19.200 joined by Sharleik's cousin, Derek Dallup and another younger friend, 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:24.479 Luis Cologne. According to Graves, Anthony had a previous altercation 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.800 with the victim, Lee run Chen, who worked at the 0:11:26.880 --> 0:11:30.960 Chinese restaurant down the block, Mister Hings. The reason behind 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:35.440 this disagreement and the timing changed between initial interviews and trial. 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:40.880 In this farcical version of events, Anthony allegedly had refused 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.120 to pay for something at Mister Hings because it was 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.600 either something he hadn't ordered, or some chicken was undercooked, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:50.079 or it didn't look right, you know, lying is tricky 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.880 that way, right, It gets hard to keep track of 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.679 your own bullshit anyway. At the time of this alleged 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:01.040 problem and refusal of payment, Lee run Chen allegedly pulled 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.720 a gun on Anthony, to which Anthony allegedly responded that 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:09.280 he would get Chen for this. According to Graves, that night, 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:11.880 in the lead up to the murder, Anthony brought up 0:12:11.920 --> 0:12:14.360 this two to three week old and then later four 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.320 to five month old beef several times and was getting 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.200 heated up about it before they headed to mister Hings, 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.360 where Anthony was the one who allegedly shot Lee run Chen, 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:29.240 not Graves, whose fiance had complained to him about Chen's 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:33.680 inappropriate touching earlier that day. So this just super believable 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:37.240 narrative is what became the prosecution's theory. 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.080 It just feels liberated to hear you retell that story 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:44.280 because it sounded crazy to me, and from you saying 0:12:44.360 --> 0:12:46.280 how crazy it sounds to you, that means a lot. 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.040 Because I've always believed down the line that the truth 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.079 was going to come out. I didn't know that it 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:54.079 would be in prison twenty three years before this truth 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:55.559 came out, and it's. 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.760 Going to be out there now finally for everyone to 0:12:57.800 --> 0:13:01.360 hear it, and Jonathan, there's even more to know about 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.280 Graves's ridiculous narrative. 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:08.280 The story against Anthony was not only ridiculous, but as 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:12.800 he alluded to, it was so inconsistent. Graves first actually 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.920 told police Anthony and Graves's other two friends had gone 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.000 to the Chinese restaurant earlier on that evening and then 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.440 come back and Anthony was heated about an argument with 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.120 the victim. But Graves's two friends never said they went 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.440 to the Chinese restaurant. It was just made up. So 0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:32.160 Graves had to change his story and say that he 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.880 had witnessed an argument between Anthony and the victim months 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.360 earlier over a food order, and that Anthony was still 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.840 fuming about this months later on the night of the murder. 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.920 Again Graves's friends right who were trying to back him up. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:49.400 They never said that Anthony had any beef with a 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.640 victim or was fuming about it in the car that evening, 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.800 So the story never really made sense. But what was 0:13:55.880 --> 0:14:00.800 important to police and prosecutors, unfortunately, was clear the case. 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.839 And once they had Graves and his two friends who 0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.800 were willing to point the finger at Anthony as a 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.640 scapegoat the train had left the station. 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:13.960 Okay, so they've got their site set on you, Anthony. 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:16.560 Initially they show up at your job, but you were 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:19.040 out that day. This tipped you off though that they 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.479 were at least looking to talk to you, and eventually 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:24.480 you went involuntarily. I mean, you were an innocent man. 0:14:24.840 --> 0:14:27.320 So did you think, well, I'll just go in there, 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:29.200 clear this up and head on home. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.360 I did, And a big key as being left out 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.280 was there was a camera inside of that restaurant. So 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.520 I thought, regardless that somebody would at one point in 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.160 time review the tape and that I had nothing to 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.080 worry about. The tape would clear everything up for me. 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.320 So yes, drove of myself to the precinct, and that's 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.160 why I been ever since talked away. 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:52.960 You never walked out of there again, never walked out. 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:57.560 Now what happened with the videotape from the Chinese restaurant? 0:14:57.920 --> 0:14:59.880 They said that the tape wasn't recalling. 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:01.160 Do you believe that? 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:03.880 To be honest, I don't know what to believe anymore. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:05.320 I used to have a lot of faith in the 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:09.360 conditional system, but from being a crossert to myself and 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:11.960 listening to some of the other harves stories from people 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.520 in here with me, I don't know what to believe. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:14.800 Now. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:33.920 They had their man, and any other evidence that existed 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:39.160 then were emerged later that suggested Anthony was innocent or 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:42.480 that Grace was guilty was just an inconvenience to the 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:46.840 prosecution's case, and so it was not disclosed to the defense. 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:49.480 And of course listeners of this show will know that 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:53.120 when the authorities withhold exculpatory evidence, it's called a Brady violation. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.920 Brady violations are illegal, but as our listeners also know, 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:02.640 Brady violations rarely seem to be any actual ramifications for 0:16:02.680 --> 0:16:05.680 the people who commit them. So it just keeps fucking 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:08.680 happening in case after case. And in this case, I 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.120 believe the worst Brady violation, the worst one among so many, 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:15.000 is the sole independent witness who came forward in this 0:16:15.160 --> 0:16:18.000 case that I alluded to earlier, whose statement was hidden 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.960 from the defense. Will refer to her only as Rachel. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.080 So Rachel was right outside the Chinese restaurant where the 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.960 murder occurred, talking on a payphone. This was an undisputed fact, 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:34.280 and police spoke to her and initially she said that 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.240 she had heard the shot and seen people running from 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.000 the Chinese restaurant, but she didn't have her contacts in 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.240 and so she couldn't identify who those people were. That 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.480 was what she said. Now, this was not a neighborhood 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.840 where it was easy to report to police who you 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.320 had seen involved in a murder, much less if that 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:58.920 person was your neighbor. And actually Rachel, who was seventeen 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.160 at the time, she neighbors with Julius Graves. Now, a 0:17:03.200 --> 0:17:06.639 couple of weeks went by and Rachel had kept this 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:11.520 information to herself, but her conscience was gnawing away at her. 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.480 She learned that Anthony had been wrongfully arrested for the crime, 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:21.239 and she actually received a call from Anthony's wife at 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:24.760 the time, Keisha, who said to Rachel, I hear you 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.359 were present at the scene and that you may have 0:17:27.400 --> 0:17:30.760 seen something. Please just talk to police, tell them what 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:34.280 you saw, whatever you saw, Please just tell them the truth. Now, 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.040 at around the same time, Rachel actually had an exchange 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:43.720 with Graves and his fiance outside of their brownstone. During 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:47.199 that exchange, Rachel said, I know what you did. I 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.520 saw what you did. In truth, she had seen Julius 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:55.120 Graves running from the Chinese restaurant with a shotgun right 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.800 after the shot was fired, and she said, I know 0:17:57.880 --> 0:17:59.399 what you did, and you're trying to put it on 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:03.520 somebody else us and Graves said, you talk too much 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.520 and if you keep talking, I'm going to shut you up. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:11.359 And so she called police spoke to a detective and 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.560 she said, I saw Julius Graves running from the Chinese 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.920 restaurant with a big, long gun. I know it was him. 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.080 He's my neighbor. And the detective said, we already have 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.400 another guy. It was the taller guy. Anthony is six', 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.680 Three graves is five to. Nine rachel, said, NO i, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.080 know they look completely. DIFFERENT i know that it Was 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.560 graves who was running with a. Shotgun and the detective basically, said, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.960 well thank you for your time and hung up the. 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.320 Phone Shaw leek had anticipated That rachel could go to the, 0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:48.400 police so ShW leek reports that as. Harassment they had that. 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:52.760 Report but IF i can complete that, incredibly even Though 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:57.480 rachel lived next door To, sharlie they did not Question 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.880 rachel at all about that police. 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:03.199 Report they didn't have to go across the country to 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:06.440 interview somebody or across the, state right they'd go across the. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:11.800 Street across the. Street somebody who actually had begged to be, 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.760 interviewed even though she had been threatened by a really dangerous, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.040 guy was, like, No i'm going to do the right. 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.880 Thing but instead she just got shut down by those 0:19:20.920 --> 0:19:24.160 who are supposed to protect, us which Left graves out 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:27.280 on the streets to potentially commit more violent, crimes While 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:29.960 anthony was stripped of his freedom and civil. Rights so 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:32.960 back to this. Investigation if you want to call it, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:36.760 that the grandmother Of graves's, children you, know Char leak's, 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.640 mom signs on to parrot some of the. Narrative this 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:44.160 Is Dorothy, bolding whose story changed from her initial interview 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.359 when she didn't Mention Anthony graves or even having been 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:53.880 at Mister hings at. All this. Interview critical information here 0:19:54.000 --> 0:19:56.439 was hidden from the, defense and by the time the 0:19:56.520 --> 0:19:59.560 grand jury and the trial roll, around she's changed her, 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.480 story now claiming to be able to Implicate anthony in the. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:08.320 Murder but still the investigators needed to get someone outside 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:10.960 Of graves's inner circle in order to strengthen the. Case 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.359 and AS i alluded to, earlier this is the only 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.800 other witness Besides rachel who was not directly related To. 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:21.520 Graves she was a single mom who certainly appears to 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:25.080 have been coerced into giving an ambiguous statement that helped 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.920 the prosecution's case a, trial and will refer to this 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.320 witness As, shalima. 0:20:30.400 --> 0:20:34.520 Now shalima as we have since. Learned she initially told 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.520 police that, she when visiting her friend's apartment across the 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.520 street from the, murder had heard this loud, bang had 0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.480 looked out the window from a second floor on a 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.280 dark night and had seen a couple of men ran 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.760 out of The chinese, restaurant but she couldn't describe them at. 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:53.879 All she'd seemed that one of them appeared to be 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:56.560 holding a long, done but she couldn't make any sort of, 0:20:56.800 --> 0:21:00.200 description and they, said, well let's take you in and 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.720 see if we can refresh your. Memory they took her, 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.719 in they separated her from her young, child and they 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:11.679 interrogated her for hours and wouldn't tell her where her child, 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:15.639 was which she kept, asking and then eventually they emerged 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:19.240 with a report saying that she identified the taller man 0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:22.840 as being the one holding the, gun which was something 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:25.720 that was clearly fed to her because she told police 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.200 that she couldn't describe the men she had, seen including 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.399 the person who was running with the. Gun we first 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:35.080 learned that in the past. Year shalima, SAID i don't 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.000 know HOW i could have testified THAT i saw the 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:41.560 taller man running with the. SHOTGUN i couldn't have made a, 0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:46.280 description and that's WHAT i told, Detectives and their response 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:50.439 was to take me in for basically a full day of, 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:55.320 interrogation separated from my, child until they had pressured her 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:56.840 to give them what they. 0:21:56.880 --> 0:22:00.280 Wanted, Right, so now they finally had someone as this 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.159 idea was to corroborate what The graves camp was. Saying 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.120 So july, second nineteen ninety, eight they charged, You, anthony 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:10.240 with two counts of murder in the second degree intentional 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:13.359 and depraved, indifference and one count of criminal possession of 0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.080 a weapon in the fourth, degree a weapon that you 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:19.200 had never even held in your, Hand and before trial 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:23.720