1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,080 Speaker 1: When we first released this episode on September eighth, twenty 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: twenty one, Anthony Simms had already spent twenty two years 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: in prison and was hoping to bring some much needed 4 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: attention to this horrendous injustice. At the time his passed, 5 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: the freedom were uncertain. Since then, some monumental changes have occurred. 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: For this updated episode, we spoke again with Anthony and 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: his legal team. You'll hear this episode as it was 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: originally released, but with brand new content to pick up 9 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: where we left off. On eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, a 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: woman named Rachel claims to have seen her neighbors Julius 11 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: Graves and Charlie Winbush talking. Charleiku was telling her fiance 12 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: Graves about how a man named Lee run Chen, who 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: worked at the Chinese restaurant up the block, mister Hings, 14 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: had touched her inappropriately. Graves replied that he would scare him. 15 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: Later that day, Julius Graves, his fiance's cousin, and another 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: younger friend had a few drinks with Graves's friend, Anthony 17 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: Simms as they listened music by Anthony's car. As the 18 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: evening wrapped up, Graves asked Anthony to drive him down 19 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: the block to mister Hinks. Oblivious to any issue with Chen, 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: Anthony agreed they went into the restaurant when it is 21 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:17,279 Speaker 1: believed that Graves shot and killed Lee run Chen. In shock, 22 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Anthony fled alone while Graves and the two younger guys 23 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: returned to Graves's apartment, wiped the gun clean, figured out 24 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: where to stash it, and began to conjure up a 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: story to deflect blame from Graves and onto Anthony Simms. 26 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:32,559 Speaker 1: With Graves at a number of his friends and family 27 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: supporting this phony narrative, investigators set their sights on Anthony. 28 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: Only one witness came forward independently who was neither coerced 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: nor friends and family of Julius Graves, Graves's neighbor Rachel, 30 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,920 Speaker 1: who was on the phone outside of mister Hinks during 31 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: the shooting and saw Graves running from the restaurant with 32 00:01:52,160 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: a soft off shotgun in his hand. Yet her statement 33 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: was ignored by investigators and hidden from the defense, and 34 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: as a result, Anthony Simms continues to serve twenty five 35 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: years to life. This is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. 36 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me, 37 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 1: and today if you hear my voice sounds sort of down. 38 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, this is one of the most troubling wrongful 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: conviction cases that I've ever seen in twenty eight years 40 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: of doing this work, which is almost as long as 41 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: Anthony Simms has been locked up for a crime he 42 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: obviously didn't commit. First of all, I want to introduce 43 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: the two attorneys who are so devoted to this case 44 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 1: and to this man, Jonathan Hiles and Thomas Hoffman. Thank 45 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: you both for being here. 46 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,080 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you for doing this Jason. 47 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: And now of course saving the best for last. And 48 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: I'm just so sorry that you're here under these circumstances, 49 00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: but I'm honestly honored that you're here with us today 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: on the podcast. So Anthony Simms, welcome to Rafel Conviction. 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 3: Thank you. 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: And Anthony, of course, is now a forty five year 53 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: old man, twenty four years into a twenty five to 54 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: life sentence for a murder he didn't commit. Now, this 55 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,519 Speaker 1: began back in nineteen ninety eight, but I want to 56 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: go back even further than that. Anthony, where did you 57 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: grow up and what was your childhood like? Was it 58 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: a happy childhood? 59 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 3: Yes, I grew up in Brooklyn, York, and I grow 60 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 3: of a mother, father and my two older brothers, and 61 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 3: we had was a very happy, loving family. We would 62 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 3: do a lot of fun activities together, go on vacations. 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 3: I remember every Sunday was family day. 64 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 1: And leading up to when this awful crime occurred, you 65 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: had kids of Beyonce at that time. What was life 66 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: like for you? 67 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 3: I live what I thought was a normal life. I 68 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 3: worked for Bell Atlantic Telephone company. You know, he stole 69 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 3: a phone lines and provided doubts on the customers. I 70 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 3: live with my fiance Keisha and my two sons at 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 3: the town. 72 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: So this brings us to May eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, 73 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: when you, Anthony, witnessed a terrible crime. There was a 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: Chinese restaurant, Mister Hings, which was down the block from 75 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: where your former friend Julius Grace lived, and around ten 76 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: o'clock that night, a man named Lee Runschen, who worked 77 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: at Mister Hings, was shot and killed. But earlier that day, 78 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: before any of that happened, you thought you were just 79 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: going to swing by Graves's apartment to show him this 80 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: new car you bought your fiance Keisha. 81 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 3: Julius Graves was at that time my best friend. I 82 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 3: wanted to show him the car, and I bought my 83 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 3: wife this a process, So I drove to his house 84 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 3: at that town. He asked me to drive him to 85 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: the liquor store. I went to the regular store and 86 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 3: bought some beer. We was talking. I was letting the 87 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 3: music play from my car radio, and then his two 88 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,799 Speaker 3: friends came over, his fiance's cousin Derek and then later 89 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 3: on his friend Louis, and they was listening to music 90 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: with us. And I want to say, like around ten o'clock, 91 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 3: it was getting late. I wanted to go home show 92 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 3: my wife the cause, and I wanted to be home 93 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 3: with my sons. So Julius asked me to drive him 94 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 3: to them Chinese restaurant. So I thought this is a 95 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 3: weird request because he lived down around a corner from 96 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 3: the restaurant, and I thought he could have just walked. 97 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 3: So I said, I listen, I was drinking a couple 98 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 3: of beers. Let me go to the thought about some 99 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 3: breast minds, because I don't like driving around like that. 100 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 3: I remember Julius saying, listen, and I'm going to the house. 101 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 3: I'm gonna go check with Charlie, which is his girlfriend 102 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 3: at the time, to see if she wanted anything from 103 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: the store as well. So I said, all right, so 104 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 3: I can only assun him. That's the time that he 105 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 3: got the weapon. And when I got back to my car, 106 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 3: Julius was sitting in my passenger seat and his two 107 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 3: little friends were sitting in the back. They know that 108 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 3: I didn't expect him to be in a car because 109 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 3: they looked at me with this look like, all right, well, 110 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 3: we're just going to go to this restaurant with you. 111 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 3: So I didn't think nothing. I very I got in 112 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 3: the car and I drove him to them Chinese restaurant. 113 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 3: When I got it out of the restaurant, I started 114 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: looking around for the menus and stuff to see what 115 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 3: I was going to purchase for my wife. The next 116 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 3: thing I know, I saw Julius come in the store 117 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: with like a weird expression on his face, and almost 118 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 3: immediately he resent his fans and pulled out a soda 119 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 3: sode gun, and I remember thinking like, what the hell 120 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 3: was going on and where did he even get that 121 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 3: gun from? I asked, I said, what the hell are 122 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 3: you doing? Are you crazy? Julius said, he said no, 123 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 3: approached the counter, pointed the gun out one of the 124 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: workers and pulled the trigger and I couldn't believe it. 125 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 3: I fell to blood rush for my body and all 126 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 3: I remember at that time just running out the store, 127 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 3: getting in my car. Julius jumped in there too, and 128 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: I said get out. I kicked everybody. I said, everybody, 129 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 3: get out of my car, and I Joe Hooman told 130 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 3: Keisha what happened. That was the worst night of my life. 131 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be the worst night of almost anyone's 132 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: life to witness something like that. 133 00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: I got home, I got on the phone and I 134 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 3: called them and I, so, what the hell is wrong 135 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 3: with you? Probably curts him. I said some other things following, Basically, 136 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: I want to know why did he put me in 137 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 3: that situation? Why did he allow me to walk into that? 138 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: Why didn't he come in? What was going on? Maybe 139 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 3: he thought I would talk him out of it. I 140 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 3: don't know, but he just kept apologizing and definitely told 141 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 3: me that you know the person that he found out. 142 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 3: I can't believe it. And I said, Julius, don't ever 143 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: call me again. I don't want to hear from you 144 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: no more. I just wanted to try to separate my 145 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 3: cell phone. 146 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 4: So it turns out that Julius Graves had a motive, 147 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: and that is that Graves was upset that mister Chen, 148 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 4: who worked at the Chinese restaurant, had reportedly touched the 149 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 4: hand of Graves's Beyonce Sharlee earlier in the day of 150 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 4: the murder, that he had touched her hand inappropriately. She 151 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 4: was upset about this, she told Graves, and Graves said 152 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 4: that he would go to the restaurant and scare the victim. 153 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 4: We know he did a lot more than that, but 154 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 4: that appears to have been the motive that we didn't 155 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 4: find out until many years later. Now, what was known 156 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: at the time is that after the murder, after Anthony 157 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 4: got Graves and his two friends, Derek Dollop and Louis Cologne, 158 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 4: to leave the car, it is undisputed that Graves took 159 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 4: the shotgun used in the murder, went back to the 160 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 4: apartment where he was staying, feverishly wiped off the shotgun 161 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: to get his fingerprints off of it, and then gave 162 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 4: the gun to his friend Louis Cologne to hide from police. 163 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 4: And Louis, by the way, was only fourteen years old 164 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 4: at the time. Graves's excuse for doing this is that 165 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 4: he wasn't thinking. That was his only justification. 166 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: Now. 167 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: Furthermore, this murder weapon, the sawed off shotgun, had previously 168 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 4: been kept in a lock box in the apartment where 169 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 4: Graves was staying, and Graves and his friend Derek Dollop, 170 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 4: who was also his fiance's cousin, admitted even that they 171 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 4: knew the shotgun was kept there and had seen it 172 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 4: there before. So all the evidence suggested that the shotgun 173 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 4: belonged to Graves, and it is undisputed he had handled 174 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 4: it right after the murder. 175 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: Occurred, right and the physical evidence from the scene later 176 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: proved that this sought off shotgun from Graves' apartment was 177 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: used in the murder. So this is where we start 178 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: seeing a narrative being formed from the Graves camp to 179 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: try to deflect responsibility for this murder away from Graves 180 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: and toward Anthony. And initially it will seem like a 181 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: lot of witnesses came forward to support what was really 182 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: just coming straight from Graves's imagination and what later became 183 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 1: the prosecution's narrative. But it will become clear as we 184 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 1: move along here that none of these witnesses were to 185 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 1: be believed, they should have been believed for two reasons. One, 186 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: it's discovered later that these eyewitness accounts are initially riddled 187 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: with glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that were then changed to 188 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: fit a cohesive narrative in time for trial, which is, 189 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: it's just not typical what a group of people are 190 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,680 Speaker 1: telling the truths obviously right. And two, most of the 191 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: witnesses are friends and family of Graves. There are only 192 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: two witnesses, two who are not Graves's friends or family, 193 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: one of whom was coerced by police into an ambiguous 194 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: statement that nonetheless helped the prosecution's case at the time 195 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: of trial, and the other is the only independent witness 196 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,199 Speaker 1: who bravely came forward to tell the truth about Graves's 197 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: motive and having seen him running from the restaurant with 198 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: a gun. However, none of this info about these two 199 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: witnesses was known to the defensive trial, but we'll get 200 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: to that later. Now. Right now, let's focus on the 201 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: dubious narrative coming from the Graves camp. So, the day 202 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 1: after the murder, Sharleek's brother, William Robertson told police a 203 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: second hand story from Sharleek that Sharleek had said that 204 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: Anthony had come by earlier the day of the murder 205 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: and taken the shotgun out of the apartment. Then comes 206 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: the narrative from Graves about the night of the murder. Okay, ready, so, 207 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: according to Graves, Anthony dropped by the apartment around six 208 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: pm and they had a few drinks. Anthony allegedly showed 209 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: Graves a shotgun that he had in his trunk, a 210 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: shotgun that Graves should have recognized as the one from 211 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: his apartment. Now, at some point, Anthony and Graves are 212 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: joined by Sharleik's cousin, Derek Dallup and another younger friend, 213 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:24,479 Speaker 1: Luis Cologne. According to Graves, Anthony had a previous altercation 214 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: with the victim, Lee run Chen, who worked at the 215 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: Chinese restaurant down the block, Mister Hings. The reason behind 216 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: this disagreement and the timing changed between initial interviews and trial. 217 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: In this farcical version of events, Anthony allegedly had refused 218 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: to pay for something at Mister Hings because it was 219 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: either something he hadn't ordered, or some chicken was undercooked, 220 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:50,079 Speaker 1: or it didn't look right, you know, lying is tricky 221 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 1: that way, right, It gets hard to keep track of 222 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: your own bullshit anyway. At the time of this alleged 223 00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: problem and refusal of payment, Lee run Chen allegedly pulled 224 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: a gun on Anthony, to which Anthony allegedly responded that 225 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: he would get Chen for this. According to Graves, that night, 226 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: in the lead up to the murder, Anthony brought up 227 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: this two to three week old and then later four 228 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: to five month old beef several times and was getting 229 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,200 Speaker 1: heated up about it before they headed to mister Hings, 230 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: where Anthony was the one who allegedly shot Lee run Chen, 231 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: not Graves, whose fiance had complained to him about Chen's 232 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: inappropriate touching earlier that day. So this just super believable 233 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: narrative is what became the prosecution's theory. 234 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 3: It just feels liberated to hear you retell that story 235 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: because it sounded crazy to me, and from you saying 236 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 3: how crazy it sounds to you, that means a lot. 237 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: Because I've always believed down the line that the truth 238 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 3: was going to come out. I didn't know that it 239 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 3: would be in prison twenty three years before this truth 240 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 3: came out, and it's. 241 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 1: Going to be out there now finally for everyone to 242 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: hear it, and Jonathan, there's even more to know about 243 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 1: Graves's ridiculous narrative. 244 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 4: The story against Anthony was not only ridiculous, but as 245 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 4: he alluded to, it was so inconsistent. Graves first actually 246 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 4: told police Anthony and Graves's other two friends had gone 247 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: to the Chinese restaurant earlier on that evening and then 248 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 4: come back and Anthony was heated about an argument with 249 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 4: the victim. But Graves's two friends never said they went 250 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 4: to the Chinese restaurant. It was just made up. So 251 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 4: Graves had to change his story and say that he 252 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: had witnessed an argument between Anthony and the victim months 253 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 4: earlier over a food order, and that Anthony was still 254 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 4: fuming about this months later on the night of the murder. 255 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 4: Again Graves's friends right who were trying to back him up. 256 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 4: They never said that Anthony had any beef with a 257 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 4: victim or was fuming about it in the car that evening, 258 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 4: So the story never really made sense. But what was 259 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 4: important to police and prosecutors, unfortunately, was clear the case. 260 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,839 Speaker 4: And once they had Graves and his two friends who 261 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 4: were willing to point the finger at Anthony as a 262 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 4: scapegoat the train had left the station. 263 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so they've got their site set on you, Anthony. 264 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: Initially they show up at your job, but you were 265 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: out that day. This tipped you off though that they 266 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,479 Speaker 1: were at least looking to talk to you, and eventually 267 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 1: you went involuntarily. I mean, you were an innocent man. 268 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: So did you think, well, I'll just go in there, 269 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: clear this up and head on home. 270 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 3: I did, And a big key as being left out 271 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 3: was there was a camera inside of that restaurant. So 272 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 3: I thought, regardless that somebody would at one point in 273 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 3: time review the tape and that I had nothing to 274 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 3: worry about. The tape would clear everything up for me. 275 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 3: So yes, drove of myself to the precinct, and that's 276 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 3: why I been ever since talked away. 277 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: You never walked out of there again, never walked out. 278 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: Now what happened with the videotape from the Chinese restaurant? 279 00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 3: They said that the tape wasn't recalling. 280 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: Do you believe that? 281 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 3: To be honest, I don't know what to believe anymore. 282 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 3: I used to have a lot of faith in the 283 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 3: conditional system, but from being a crossert to myself and 284 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: listening to some of the other harves stories from people 285 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: in here with me, I don't know what to believe. 286 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 2: Now. 287 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 4: They had their man, and any other evidence that existed 288 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 4: then were emerged later that suggested Anthony was innocent or 289 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 4: that Grace was guilty was just an inconvenience to the 290 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 4: prosecution's case, and so it was not disclosed to the defense. 291 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: And of course listeners of this show will know that 292 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 1: when the authorities withhold exculpatory evidence, it's called a Brady violation. 293 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 1: Brady violations are illegal, but as our listeners also know, 294 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: Brady violations rarely seem to be any actual ramifications for 295 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: the people who commit them. So it just keeps fucking 296 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 1: happening in case after case. And in this case, I 297 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: believe the worst Brady violation, the worst one among so many, 298 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 1: is the sole independent witness who came forward in this 299 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: case that I alluded to earlier, whose statement was hidden 300 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: from the defense. Will refer to her only as Rachel. 301 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 4: So Rachel was right outside the Chinese restaurant where the 302 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 4: murder occurred, talking on a payphone. This was an undisputed fact, 303 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 4: and police spoke to her and initially she said that 304 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 4: she had heard the shot and seen people running from 305 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 4: the Chinese restaurant, but she didn't have her contacts in 306 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 4: and so she couldn't identify who those people were. That 307 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 4: was what she said. Now, this was not a neighborhood 308 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 4: where it was easy to report to police who you 309 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 4: had seen involved in a murder, much less if that 310 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 4: person was your neighbor. And actually Rachel, who was seventeen 311 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: at the time, she neighbors with Julius Graves. Now, a 312 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 4: couple of weeks went by and Rachel had kept this 313 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 4: information to herself, but her conscience was gnawing away at her. 314 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 4: She learned that Anthony had been wrongfully arrested for the crime, 315 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:21,239 Speaker 4: and she actually received a call from Anthony's wife at 316 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 4: the time, Keisha, who said to Rachel, I hear you 317 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 4: were present at the scene and that you may have 318 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:30,760 Speaker 4: seen something. Please just talk to police, tell them what 319 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 4: you saw, whatever you saw, Please just tell them the truth. Now, 320 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 4: at around the same time, Rachel actually had an exchange 321 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 4: with Graves and his fiance outside of their brownstone. During 322 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 4: that exchange, Rachel said, I know what you did. I 323 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 4: saw what you did. In truth, she had seen Julius 324 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,120 Speaker 4: Graves running from the Chinese restaurant with a shotgun right 325 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 4: after the shot was fired, and she said, I know 326 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 4: what you did, and you're trying to put it on 327 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 4: somebody else us and Graves said, you talk too much 328 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 4: and if you keep talking, I'm going to shut you up. 329 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 4: And so she called police spoke to a detective and 330 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 4: she said, I saw Julius Graves running from the Chinese 331 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,920 Speaker 4: restaurant with a big, long gun. I know it was him. 332 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 4: He's my neighbor. And the detective said, we already have 333 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 4: another guy. It was the taller guy. Anthony is six', 334 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 4: Three graves is five to. Nine rachel, said, NO i, 335 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 4: know they look completely. DIFFERENT i know that it Was 336 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 4: graves who was running with a. Shotgun and the detective basically, said, 337 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 4: well thank you for your time and hung up the. 338 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 2: Phone Shaw leek had anticipated That rachel could go to the, 339 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:48,400 Speaker 2: police so ShW leek reports that as. Harassment they had that. 340 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: Report but IF i can complete that, incredibly even Though 341 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 2: rachel lived next door To, sharlie they did not Question 342 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,880 Speaker 2: rachel at all about that police. 343 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:03,199 Speaker 1: Report they didn't have to go across the country to 344 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: interview somebody or across the, state right they'd go across the. 345 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: Street across the. Street somebody who actually had begged to be, 346 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: interviewed even though she had been threatened by a really dangerous, 347 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,040 Speaker 1: guy was, like, No i'm going to do the right. 348 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: Thing but instead she just got shut down by those 349 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: who are supposed to protect, us which Left graves out 350 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: on the streets to potentially commit more violent, crimes While 351 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: anthony was stripped of his freedom and civil. Rights so 352 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: back to this. Investigation if you want to call it, 353 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: that the grandmother Of graves's, children you, know Char leak's, 354 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: mom signs on to parrot some of the. Narrative this 355 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: Is Dorothy, bolding whose story changed from her initial interview 356 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 1: when she didn't Mention Anthony graves or even having been 357 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: at Mister hings at. All this. Interview critical information here 358 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,439 Speaker 1: was hidden from the, defense and by the time the 359 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: grand jury and the trial roll, around she's changed her, 360 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: story now claiming to be able to Implicate anthony in the. 361 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: Murder but still the investigators needed to get someone outside 362 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: Of graves's inner circle in order to strengthen the. Case 363 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: and AS i alluded to, earlier this is the only 364 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,800 Speaker 1: other witness Besides rachel who was not directly related To. 365 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: Graves she was a single mom who certainly appears to 366 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: have been coerced into giving an ambiguous statement that helped 367 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case a, trial and will refer to this 368 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: witness As, shalima. 369 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 4: Now shalima as we have since. Learned she initially told 370 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 4: police that, she when visiting her friend's apartment across the 371 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 4: street from the, murder had heard this loud, bang had 372 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 4: looked out the window from a second floor on a 373 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 4: dark night and had seen a couple of men ran 374 00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 4: out of The chinese, restaurant but she couldn't describe them at. 375 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 4: All she'd seemed that one of them appeared to be 376 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 4: holding a long, done but she couldn't make any sort of, 377 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 4: description and they, said, well let's take you in and 378 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 4: see if we can refresh your. Memory they took her, 379 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,719 Speaker 4: in they separated her from her young, child and they 380 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 4: interrogated her for hours and wouldn't tell her where her child, 381 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,639 Speaker 4: was which she kept, asking and then eventually they emerged 382 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 4: with a report saying that she identified the taller man 383 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 4: as being the one holding the, gun which was something 384 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 4: that was clearly fed to her because she told police 385 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 4: that she couldn't describe the men she had, seen including 386 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 4: the person who was running with the. Gun we first 387 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 4: learned that in the past. Year shalima, SAID i don't 388 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 4: know HOW i could have testified THAT i saw the 389 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 4: taller man running with the. SHOTGUN i couldn't have made a, 390 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 4: description and that's WHAT i told, Detectives and their response 391 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 4: was to take me in for basically a full day of, 392 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 4: interrogation separated from my, child until they had pressured her 393 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 4: to give them what they. 394 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: Wanted, Right, so now they finally had someone as this 395 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 1: idea was to corroborate what The graves camp was. Saying 396 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: So july, second nineteen ninety, eight they charged, You, anthony 397 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: with two counts of murder in the second degree intentional 398 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 1: and depraved, indifference and one count of criminal possession of 399 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: a weapon in the fourth, degree a weapon that you 400 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: had never even held in your, Hand and before trial 401 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: even began In april nineteen ninety, Nine graves attempted to. 402 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 4: Disappear graves didn't want to. Testify he wanted to get 403 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 4: himself off of the, hook but even he perhaps had 404 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: some pangs of conscience about falsely implicating someone who had 405 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 4: formerly been his, friend and so he went underground before 406 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 4: the trials, started and he was on probation at the, 407 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 4: time actually on a weapons possession, charge and he hadn't 408 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 4: been reporting to his probation officer for three, years and 409 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 4: so The District attorney's office actually initiated proceedings to Revoke graves's. 410 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 4: Probation he would be remanded to prison. 411 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: Potentially this one's really. MYSTIFYING i, mean do you have 412 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: a guy who has a propensity to, violence who knows 413 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: his way around with, weapons who was a possession of the, 414 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: gun who had a previous weapons, violation and it's, like, 415 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: yeah now we're just gonna ignore. 416 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 2: That julius was asked, directly have you reported to your 417 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: probation officer often and? Regularly he answered, yes when he 418 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 2: hadn't reported for three, years and that why was not. 419 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: Corrected and clearly the credibility Of graves was. Critical we 420 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 2: did not know that he had not reported till last. 421 00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: Year so at, trial the state Presented shalima along With 422 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: graves's cadre of liars Right graves, himself of, course and 423 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: is fiance's Cousin Derek, dallap his Friend Luis, cologne and 424 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: the grandmother Of graves' two, Children Dorothy. Bolding Now bolding's 425 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: story changed. Twice in her initial, interview she didn't mention Seeing, 426 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,479 Speaker 1: Graves anthony or even having been At Mister. Hings and 427 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: then at the grand jury she testified that while drinking 428 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: outside Of Mister hings she Saw anthony enter with a 429 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: long gun and heard a shot fired Before graves entered the. 430 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: Restaurant then at, TRIAL i don't, know maybe she had 431 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,119 Speaker 1: some pangs of conscience either, way, though she testified that 432 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: she Saw anthony go, in followed By, graves then heard 433 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: a gunshot but never saw a. 434 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 4: Gun Miss bolding for initial report would have really discredited 435 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 4: her as a prosecution witness was not. Disclosed also not 436 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 4: disclosed or bias given her relation To Julius. 437 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: Graves, okay so now There's. Shalima she also testified against, You. 438 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: Anthony she said that on the night of the, shooting 439 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: she was visiting a friend who lived on the second 440 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: floor in an apartment across the street From Mister. Hings 441 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: she said that she heard a gunshot and looked out 442 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: the window to see two black men running from the, 443 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: restaurant and that quote the tall guy had. 444 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 4: A Gun this was helpful for the prosecution Because anthony 445 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 4: was taller Than. Graves, now the prosecutor tried to get 446 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 4: her to Identify. Anthony you, know look around the. Courtroom 447 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 4: is the person you saw running with the gun? Here she, 448 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 4: SAID i don't, KNOW i can't. Say and also she 449 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,919 Speaker 4: testified that of the two men she saw, running it 450 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 4: was the person who was running, second who was behind 451 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 4: who was running with the. Shotgun graves testified that he 452 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 4: was running, second that he was Behind. Anthony so actually 453 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 4: her testimony was very, ambiguous but it was really the 454 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 4: only thing the prosecution had that came outside Of graves's inner. 455 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: Circle and as a, result the failure to disclose What 456 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 4: shalima had had told detectives from the beginning that she 457 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 4: couldn't describe anything was a very Damaging brady violation For anthony's. 458 00:25:53,840 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: Defense was there any real defense mounted in your, Case? Anthony, no. 459 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 3: We didn't even call any witnesses them on, behalf ALTHOUGH 460 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 3: i asked my, lawyer cannot testify and he said. No 461 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 3: he was really confident that there was no need for 462 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 3: them because the case was a weak case and they'll 463 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 3: eventually be able to, say you, Know julia did or, 464 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 3: whatever and that was. That SO i didn't really have a. 465 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: Defense so after hearing From graves's network of liars And 466 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: shalema's ambiguous, testimony and then importantly the absence Of, rachel 467 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: did you still hold out any hope at all that 468 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: you'd be? 469 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: VINDICATED i did only because it was a time during 470 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,200 Speaker 3: the deliberations or the jury came back into the courtroom 471 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: and they passed to note the sitting were, deadlocked and 472 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 3: the jet, said, well, Listen i'm going to give you 473 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 3: a brief allent. Charge he was basically, SAYING i don't 474 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 3: know what the problem. Is it's not like he's facing 475 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 3: the death on. 476 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:52,800 Speaker 1: It go give me a. 477 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 3: Verdict and they needed some, rebacks some questions and. STUFF 478 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 3: i was still, hopeful although hopeless slipping away. 479 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: At that, point but they came back and found you. 480 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 1: Guilty what was that moment was that if you can 481 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: just take us inside that courtroom and inside your mind 482 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: and your. Soul at that, MOMENT. 483 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: I was, shocked, CONFUSED i was, hurt, devastated. GNOSIS i, 484 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: MEAN i was. ANGRY i remember trying to stand, up 485 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 3: BUT i didn't have any feeling in my laity because 486 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 3: it's so. Weak, ironically what was going through my mind 487 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 3: at that point was my son's because they were so, 488 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,360 Speaker 3: young and every NIGHT i would tell them crazy bedtime, 489 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 3: stories either one THAT i read from a book OR 490 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 3: i used to make up some. Stories and he looked 491 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 3: forward to going to sleep just about could come in 492 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 3: the room and telling them. Stories AND i said to, 493 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 3: Myself i'm not going to be able to do that 494 00:27:48,840 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 3: for a. While as you can, imagine for the first 495 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 3: couple of, YEARS i was very. BETTER i WAS i was, 496 00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:16,639 Speaker 3: MAD i was, angry AND i was almost like a 497 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: walking dommie so to. SPEAK i, MEAN i was always 498 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 3: trying to do programs and stuff and trying to help 499 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 3: myself and help other people as, well but INSIDE i 500 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 3: was really messed. Up AND i remember going on the 501 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 3: visit one day and my, son Little Anthony, junior WHICH 502 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,879 Speaker 3: i loved to do all of both my, sons he was. 503 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 3: Crying he just broke out one day crying on a 504 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 3: visit and he, Said, daddy don't, Worry i'm Gonna i'm 505 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: gonna Get julius doing this to, you because he had 506 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 3: known at that Point julius as his uncle because we 507 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 3: were so. Close AND i looked at him AND i, said, No, 508 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: anthony don't ever say that. AGAIN i, SAID i don't 509 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: ever say. That, No AND i was very let them 510 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 3: know that the law will mentally prevail and there to 511 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,080 Speaker 3: work it self, out and in them saying. Tis he 512 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,880 Speaker 3: looked at me and he, says lord and, dad and 513 00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 3: you got to promise me that you would never do 514 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 3: anything to him Linger AND i, SAID i. WON'T i 515 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 3: promise you. That and it was that point THAT i 516 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 3: forgave you is AND i continue to live my life 517 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 3: as a life give for, them but also trying to 518 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 3: help any and everybody out because in a sense helping 519 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 3: me as. Well but that was my turning. Point that's 520 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 3: WHEN i forgave him for doing what he. 521 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: Did, wow sounds like you did a hell of a, 522 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: job even in the brief time you had with your, 523 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 1: sons raising them and teaching them. 524 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 3: Right, unfortunately prison has a way to divine, families as 525 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: you can only. Imagine so my son's, mother which is 526 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 3: my wife at the, town her name is Also, keisher 527 00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 3: this prison vi became too much for us and it 528 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 3: felt LIKE i was holding her back from living her. 529 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 3: Life so we both came to the agreement that we 530 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 3: should just Divorce sympara so that she can live the 531 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 3: life of the. Speak And god always has a way 532 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: of making things. Happen but my wife, today which is 533 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 3: also Named, keisha it is my junior high school. Girlfriend 534 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 3: she was my cheerleader WHEN i was the captain of 535 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 3: the basketball. Team So jesus started to write me and 536 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 3: one thing turned into. Another all of the old feelings came, 537 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 3: back and we decided to try one more time to get. 538 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 3: Married and that was prond of the best decision of my. 539 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 5: Life my name Is Keisha simms AND i Am Anthony simmons's, 540 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 5: wife and it is it's the best decision that we've 541 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 5: ever made THAT i have ever. Made anthony AND i, 542 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 5: were you, know junior high school. Sweethearts you, know people 543 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 5: in the situation always think that the people in, prison you, 544 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 5: know they should be grateful that someone makes a type 545 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 5: of commitment to them under these. Circumstances but for, Me 546 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 5: anthony has brought just so much to my. Life he 547 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 5: hasn't riched my life so. Much i've grown so much 548 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 5: as a person because of. Him this situation in particular 549 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 5: has made me, stronger and So i'm just grateful that 550 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 5: he chose me to go on this journey with him 551 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 5: and to fight for his. 552 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: Innocence one, DAY i was reading the newspaper from a 553 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 3: friend of mine Named Kevin. Jenkins he asked me to 554 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 3: read this article because the articles involved the person that 555 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 3: we both knew From greenhavins And Manuel. Cooper devin suggested 556 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 3: THAT i try to get in touch With Tom, hoffman 557 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 3: the lawyer that got this guy. Out SO i talked 558 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 3: to my wife and she said that night it was 559 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 3: all for her to sleep because she worked around a 560 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 3: lot of. Lawyers she knew that she only had one 561 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 3: shot at this and she was making with a bullet. 562 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: Points she was rehearsing what she would saying because she 563 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 3: knew that it was really important to Obtain Thomas. Hoffman she, 564 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 3: said the first Thing tom wanted to knows wasn't, anything 565 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: because he would not represent anybody who was not. Innocent 566 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: And keisha, told, yes he, is But i'm going to 567 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 3: send you some information so that you can see it for. 568 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 5: Yourself at that, POINT i had all Of anthony's legal 569 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 5: work because his son had kept all of his, documentation 570 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 5: and he, said, well send me everything that you. Have 571 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,479 Speaker 5: So i'm working from. Home ALL i have is An 572 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,720 Speaker 5: adobe scanned app on my phone which can only scan 573 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 5: one page at a. Time one Of anthony's transcripts is 574 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 5: four hundred and some are. Pages that's just only one. 575 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 5: Transcript AND i did that for, days you, know trying 576 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 5: to get all the information to, him and he saw 577 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 5: all of the, discrepancies you, know and all the violations 578 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 5: and things that we had always. Seen tom knew That 579 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 5: anthony was, innocent and it was just astounding evidence to support. 580 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 3: That in The rest Is, HISTORY i Got Tom hoffin 581 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 3: And hanton have page for. 582 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: Bono it's an amazing, STORY i, mean a tale of 583 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: two keishas which eventually resulted in these two, attorneys which 584 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: of course brings us to the post. Conviction and it 585 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: looks like before you both got, involved there were some 586 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: filings surrounding an inappropriate remark by the, prosecutor ineffective assistant, 587 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: claims trial court, errors discriminatory jury, challenges all of which 588 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: were serious points but ultimately. Failed there was some new, 589 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: evidence a recantation of trial testimony From. Graves we know 590 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: he was feeling remorseful for Throwing anthony under the, bus 591 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 1: but he didn't want to come. Clean so THIS Affi 592 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: david really is reflective of, that meaning he doesn't tell 593 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 1: the whole. Truths he basically says That anthony went inside 594 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: Mister hings and, He Julius, graves did. Not he continued 595 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 1: that he didn't see who Shot chen and was coerced 596 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: to testify that he had Seen anthony do. It so 597 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: it takes the onus off Of, anthony but it's definitely 598 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 1: not the exonerating evidence that one would hope, for as 599 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: were the other filings in this. 600 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 4: Case everything that sort of happened in those initial post 601 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 4: trial proceeds was sort of skirmishes around secondary, issues which 602 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 4: unfortunately is often the best you can do for a 603 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 4: convicted person until you get A Tom hoffman to fully 604 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 4: reinvestigate the case like a. 605 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: Detective right Without, tom we wouldn't know the context Around shalima's, 606 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: testimony which is what passed for a corroborating witness For 607 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: graves and his whole network of, liars and then the 608 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 1: Major brady violation in Hiding rachel for all of these. Years, 609 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: remember she Witnessed charlik And graves talking about the inappropriate, 610 00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: touching which established the. Motive she Saw graves running from 611 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: Mister hings with a. Gun then when she Confronted charleick And, 612 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: graves she was, threatened you talk too. Much you keep, 613 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: Talking i'm gonna shut you, up was the. Quote not 614 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,760 Speaker 1: to even mention all of the previously unknown or ignored 615 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: holes and shifts And graves's. Narrative and, finally we haven't 616 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: even talked about this, yet but there was a cook 617 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: at Mister hings who had a view of the shooter 618 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 1: and described his complexion as quote not. Black this is 619 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: consistent With graves's light brown, skin While anthony importantly has 620 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: a dark. Complexion, So, tom what is being done with 621 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 1: all of these sculpatory evidence that you've? 622 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: Compiled the year four point forty was initially filed In, 623 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 2: december and we Attach rachel's Affidavit shulima's. Statement we also 624 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 2: found this documentation That graves had lied about reporting to 625 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:33,080 Speaker 2: his probation officer often and. Regularly we also found Additional brady, 626 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: violations and as the case was, preceding we then get 627 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 2: even more documents FROM, foil including That graves on the 628 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 2: day of his, testimony received, money received housing together with his, 629 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,399 Speaker 2: girlfriend his girlfriend's, brother and the brother's. Girlfriend and then 630 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 2: he eventually gets twenty five thousand dollars in. Benefits all 631 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,839 Speaker 2: this comes, out so we then amend. Ourition we also 632 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: found out That cologne had told one of his friends 633 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: that it was his friend who committed the. Shooting, well 634 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 2: his friend Was Julius. Graves that was only recently, ascertained 635 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 2: as with, others AND i should, say look the current 636 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 2: four forty eightyas in their, response they did not address 637 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 2: any of our. Allegations Did Julius graves lie or did 638 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 2: he not? Lie not? Addressed they, said you could have a. Hearing, 639 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,400 Speaker 2: well the hearing's gonna take quite a, while And anthony 640 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,640 Speaker 2: should be home. Now the evidence is. Overwhelming the resistance 641 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 2: on undoing a wrongful conviction is, you. 642 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely it is even under normal. Circumstances but here 643 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: In brooklyn there's been an even more obstinate than usual 644 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: obstacle in this. Case anthony brought his case to The 645 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Conviction Review unit in twenty, seventeen and one would 646 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 1: think that the good folks there would take one look 647 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: At graves's bullshit and do something about. It but the 648 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: man tasked with running THE CiU In brooklyn since twenty 649 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: fourteen Was Mark, hale who just so happens to be 650 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 1: the man who Prosecuted anthony's. 651 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: Case H. 652 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: But and this is a big. Butt Mark hale just 653 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: retired at the beginning Of july twenty twenty. One so 654 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,479 Speaker 1: while this is good news For, anthony there are still 655 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: plenty of ways that this might not work. Out even 656 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: With Mark hale out of the. Way brooklyn Da Er 657 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 1: gonzalez continued to oppose throwing out his wrongful, conviction knowing 658 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: That anthony only had two other, options his four to 659 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: forty motion in front Of Judge Jenny, chun who had 660 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,680 Speaker 1: never granted a single four to forty motion in his lengthy, 661 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: career or going in front of the par. Board both 662 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: were dubious. Avenues so they went in front of this, 663 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: judge And Julius graves not only admitted to perjuring himself at, 664 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,480 Speaker 1: trial also continued to say things that contradicted what he 665 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,359 Speaker 1: had previously said under. Oath, Meanwhile Mark hale also took 666 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: the stand and claimed over and over again to have 667 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: no memory of this Case Julius, graves or the Egregious brady. 668 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: Violations the emotion is still. Pending, meanwhile the summer of 669 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: twenty twenty, Two anthony was eligible for, parole and the 670 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,240 Speaker 1: board was much more reasonable releasing him on his first. 671 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: Try So, anthony welcome. 672 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,840 Speaker 3: Back thank you for having me. 673 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: Again, Well i'm sure your, Family keisha and everyone is 674 00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 1: just ecstatic to have you. Home so tell me about 675 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: your first moments on the outside with. 676 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 3: Them it was. 677 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 6: SURREAL i couldn't believe. It december, FIRST i was. RELEASED 678 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 6: i walked through the, DOORS i put my different clothes 679 00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 6: on that my wife sent, me AND i stood outside 680 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 6: AND i was Met byha with his big hug and 681 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:53,439 Speaker 6: smiles of. Joy ALTHOUGH i was, outside it didn't seem. 682 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:56,560 Speaker 6: Real nothing at that moment seemed. Real and we drove 683 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 6: to a Nearby. Dinah she just wanted to make sure 684 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 6: THAT i had something good to eat for a. CHANGE 685 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 6: i had sunnyside of, eggs hash brown Answer whole fries 686 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 6: and it had some, toast and we ate and we. 687 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 6: Talked she held my, HAND i held, hers AND i 688 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 6: just tried to take it all. 689 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: IN i gotta imagine that all of this has been, 690 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: amazing but. BITTERSWEET i, mean you're finally, free but only 691 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,839 Speaker 1: after all of those. Years years you can't get, Back 692 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,360 Speaker 1: and there must be a lot of mixed, emotions and 693 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: it's got to just be a burning desire to just 694 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: clear your. 695 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:34,600 Speaker 6: Name that's the main. Thing because Although i'm, Free i'm 696 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 6: still technically award to the. State i'm on parole right. 697 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 6: NOW i have to report to a parole, officer so 698 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 6: WHENEVER i need to go, SOMEWHERE i have to call 699 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 6: and get permission to. GO i thank god that the 700 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 6: parole officer that was designed to me is a cool parole. 701 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 3: Officer he's. 702 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 6: Decent you, know he does his, job but he's not 703 00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 6: one of those sticklers to just try to mess with, 704 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,279 Speaker 6: people so he's. Fair but, Yeah i'm Still i'm still 705 00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:01,360 Speaker 6: a water to. State thing that could. Happen go for, 706 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,439 Speaker 6: BIT i get pulled, over somebody has a rough. Day 707 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 6: he could just throw me right back in. 708 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 1: There so what are the plans going? Forward right? 709 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 6: Now it's a waiting. 710 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 3: Game it's nothing. 711 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,640 Speaker 6: More we could do everything now rest in the hands 712 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 6: of the, judge any chunk which is optimistic and hopeful 713 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,280 Speaker 6: that you know he'll he'll do the right day and exonerate. 714 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 6: Me if, he as an exonerators, did then of course 715 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 6: we're gonna put an Appealing, well you. 716 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,799 Speaker 1: Have all of our support and your quest to lay 717 00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 1: claims your actual, innocence and with that we're gonna go 718 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: to closing, arguments where first of, All i'm gonna thank you, 719 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,360 Speaker 1: AGAIN i mean just for being, you because you inspire 720 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,480 Speaker 1: the fuck out of. Me, HONESTLY i know you don't, 721 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: curse BUT i. Do you inspire me to want to 722 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 1: work harder and smarter and longer hours to help the 723 00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: other countless number Of Anthony simmons out. There and Now 724 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,399 Speaker 1: i'm gonna sit back in my, chair turn my mic, 725 00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: off and just listen to any closing thoughts that you 726 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: may want to. Share i'm really excited that you're. Here 727 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: i'm really excited that you're. Free So jonathan And thomas will, 728 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,680 Speaker 1: go and then we're going to save you for. 729 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 4: LAST i think it's important to look at the broader 730 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 4: picture and how this injustice, occurred and it's because the 731 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 4: system did not value the life Of Anthony, simms and 732 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 4: it also did not value the life Of lee Run. 733 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 4: Chun what we're fighting to do is to make sure 734 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 4: that justice is served For anthony and also for the, 735 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 4: victim for the truth to, emerge and every ounce of 736 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,800 Speaker 4: help we can get to ensure that happens is deeply 737 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 4: appreciated because the truth has been clear from the start 738 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 4: That Julius graves was the perpetrator of this awful, crime 739 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,959 Speaker 4: Not Anthony. Simms so thank you, Again, jason. 740 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,719 Speaker 2: Thank you again for doing. THIS i believe you have 741 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,640 Speaker 2: had one hundred and forty five podcasts of people who 742 00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 2: were wontfully. CONVICTED i have listened to. Many while the facts, 743 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 2: vary the stories are all the. SAME a horrific crime is, 744 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:11,759 Speaker 2: committed drawing wide media and public, attention perpetrators need to 745 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,720 Speaker 2: be taken off the street and held to. Account, however 746 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: the concern of the police and the prosecutors is not 747 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 2: to find the actual, perpetrator but to give the public 748 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,320 Speaker 2: the perception that the case was. Solved it did not 749 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 2: matter whether the right person was brought to, justice as 750 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 2: long as the conviction was secured and the public fear. 751 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:36,719 Speaker 2: Allayed As jonathan, said neither the victim nor the defendant's 752 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,759 Speaker 2: life is valued as long as the cases were so 753 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,120 Speaker 2: to the public is not, valued as the police did 754 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 2: not care whether the actual perpetrator remained loose and posed 755 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,320 Speaker 2: the danger to the. Public also common in order to 756 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 2: win these, cases favorable evidence pointing away from defendants guilt 757 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,960 Speaker 2: is disregarded, and in contravention of the prosecutor's constitutional, duty 758 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:09,560 Speaker 2: is hidden from the. Defender, meanwhile husband's, wives, mothers, fathers, sisters, 759 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:14,960 Speaker 2: brothers and sons and daughters are, destroyed all in the 760 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 2: interest of winning at all. Courts people ask me why 761 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,600 Speaker 2: DO i do? THIS i Now i'm giving it. AWAY 762 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 2: am A holocaust. SURVIVOR i was born in nineteen forty. 763 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 2: Four basically my, family extensive family was wiped, down and 764 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:43,319 Speaker 2: That holocaust was caused by people remaining. Silent undo this horrific, Injustice. 765 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 1: ANTHONY i just want to say thank you again for 766 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: all the. 767 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 6: Supporters definitely to you for taking the Time i'll actually 768 00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:53,520 Speaker 6: hear our stories and give us a platform or give 769 00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 6: me a platform to talk about these wrongful. Convictions Since 770 00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:58,439 Speaker 6: i've been, Out i've been doing a lot of things 771 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 6: to try to bring awareness a criminal. Justice i've been 772 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 6: very supportive in different venues to speaking, engagements AND i 773 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 6: will always try to lend a voice to the people 774 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 6: who can't be. HEARD i just pray and hope that 775 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 6: you know this nightmare is over with. SOON i pray 776 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 6: and hope That Danny tune just does the right thing 777 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,560 Speaker 6: and go over the material and review everything and then 778 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 6: exonerate me so THAT i could live my. LIFE i 779 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 6: Know i'll never be able to get those years. BACK 780 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 6: i know That i'll never be able to get the 781 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,839 Speaker 6: scar off of me of, prison you know What i'm. 782 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 6: Saying BUT i just want a fresh start AND i 783 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 6: just pray for that. Opportunity and, AGAIN i thank you 784 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 6: for to support and. Everything and of COURSE i thank 785 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,919 Speaker 6: my beautiful wife because she's the. Truth that's my better 786 00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 6: half right. There so thanks, again. 787 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rapel. Conviction i'd like to 788 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,879 Speaker 1: thank our production Team Connor, Hall Jeff, cliburn And Kevin, 789 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: artist with research By Lyla. Robinson the music in this 790 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: production was supplied by three TIME oscar nominated Composer Jay. 791 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: Ralph be sure to follow us On instagram At Wrongful, 792 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: conviction On facebook At Wrongful conviction, podcast and On twitter 793 00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,480 Speaker 1: at Wrong, conviction as well as At lava For. Good 794 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: on all three. Platforms you can also follow me on 795 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:24,920 Speaker 1: both TikTok And instagram At It's Jason. Flam Wrongful conviction 796 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: is the production Of lava For good podcast and association 797 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: With Signal Company number one