1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: I'm at a senior reporter for Bloomer Green. Welcome to zero. 2 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: Now let me take you back to an extraordinary heat 3 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: wave in London this summer. The air felt like it 4 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: was straight from a desert, and as a reporter, I 5 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: took the opportunity to go out and talk to people 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: about their feelings on climate change and how it's affecting them. 7 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: I feel like there's just this impending doom. I'm constantly 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,319 Speaker 1: anxious about it. If it's causing this heat wave, then 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: it's making it very hard to sleep. They're worried, and 10 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: it's not hard to see why. Just look at what's 11 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: happened since talking to them in July. A third of 12 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Pakistan has been flooded, California has been pushed close to 13 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: blackouts by a heat wave, Europe has suffered spectacular wildfires, 14 00:00:56,280 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: and the Yangtze River in China dried up. The climate 15 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: crisis is reshaping everything around us, and it's a crisis 16 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: caused by US. We have pumped out huge amounts of 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: greenhouse gases in pursuit of growth, changing the climate in 18 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: the process. Look that growth has been broadly good for us. 19 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: I grew up in India and when I look at 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: my own family, I see that every generation has lived longer, 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: We've had ever growing opportunities, and fortunately that's helped each 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: generation become richer. That story, well, my story is shared 23 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,279 Speaker 1: by hundreds of millions of other people around the world. 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: But how true will it be for future generations? Because 25 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 1: the very things that powered progress over the last few 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: centuries are starting to reverse it. You can blame many things, 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: fossil fuels, power structures that resist change, politics that ignore 28 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: the vulnerable. I can keep going. The good thing is 29 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: that we know the solutions that we must deploy. These 30 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: won't just save coral reefs and polar bears, Don't get 31 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: me wrong, I love, but we'll also ensure that humans 32 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 1: continue to thrive. The goal is clear. We need to 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: cut emissions as close to zero as possible, as soon 34 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: as possible, and that's what this podcast is about. Each 35 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: week you'll hear from leaders, scientists, politicians, thinkers and tours 36 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: about the tactics and technologies taking us to a world 37 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: of zero emissions today, energy crisis, climate laws, and yet 38 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: another British government. Let's go back to the people baking 39 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: in the London heat. My next question to them was 40 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: who they thought should be tackling the climate crisis, and 41 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 1: one answer came back more than any other. I think 42 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: this is a governmental responsibility. I think governments have to 43 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: play at governments in the global Nordy government has to 44 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: actually make policies. Until the government decides to make is 45 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,639 Speaker 1: string changed. Then there's not really much we can do. Government. 46 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: They've got a point. Government, wherever you live, will play 47 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: a crucial role in tackling climate change. That's why for 48 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: this first episode of Zero, I wanted to talk to 49 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: someone who has been instrumental in shaping climate policy, Baroness 50 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,640 Speaker 1: Brianie Worthington. Today, Brianie sits in the UK's House of Lords, 51 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: but she began her career as a climate campaigner before 52 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: finding her way to writing the UK's signature piece of 53 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,799 Speaker 1: climate legislation, the Climate Change the Act of two thousand 54 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: and eight. As Friends of the Earth have said, the 55 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 1: world's first climate change law will also be a world 56 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 1: class climate change law. The law received extraordinary support. Out 57 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: of the four hundred and sixty six members of Parliament 58 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,840 Speaker 1: who cast their votes, only three voted against it question 59 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 1: time as many as that opinci. The law commits the 60 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: UK to a massive ten emissions. The country is legally 61 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: bound to achieve net zero by twenty fifty, and many 62 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: other countries have followed the UK's example in creating their 63 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: own climate laws. Now, with a new Prime Minister in 64 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: office and a climate champion King, this law will play 65 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: an even more important role. That's because there are real 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: challenges to the net zero target, record high energy prices, 67 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: a climate skeptic energy minister, and plans for more drilling 68 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: in the North Sea. In today's episode, Briany explains why 69 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: this historical law will hold up against these challenges and 70 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: how the UK can go beyond net zero. Briany, welcome 71 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 1: to the show. Thank you. Actually, it's delightful to be here. 72 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:47,120 Speaker 1: You've just come from hearing King Charles give his first 73 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: speech to the Parliament and that's come just a week 74 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: after the UK got a new Prime minister. Lisztruss, it's 75 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: a busy time in the UK. Huh oh. Yes, it's 76 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: been a pretty turbulent week. But some politics is often 77 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: and quite turbulent, and that's partly why you need good 78 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: laws to keep them focused on the things that matter 79 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: over the long term. So that's what we're going to 80 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: talk to you about today the Climate Change Act, and 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: I want to start with your involvement in it. You 82 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: were an English grad who got to write this law. 83 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: How did that happen? I started out really caring about 84 00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: wildlife conservation after I had finished university and I was 85 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: a member of different charities, but I also started as 86 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 1: a fundraiser for a charity. Then I got interested in 87 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: policy because I could see that it's basically needed to 88 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: find ways of creating systemic change that affected everybody, rather 89 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: than trying to do individual site battles or species battles. 90 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: So we started working on a piece of legislation called 91 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 1: the Wildlife and Countryside Act to try and update it 92 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: and make tougher rules to protect species and habitats. And 93 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: I was sitting in a meeting with a civil servant 94 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: from English Nature and they said, oh, well, of course 95 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: by the time in staws passed, this will probably become 96 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: irrelevant because climate change is coming. It's going to change everything. 97 00:05:57,320 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: I remember thinking, well, if that's the case, I need 98 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: to work on cimate change. If there's the late nineties, 99 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: so you could get access to data quite easily on 100 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: the internet, so I was able to find the UK's 101 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: inventory look at where the emissions were coming from, and 102 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: it's really clearly coming from the power sector and from energy. 103 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: So I kind of thought, right, I just want to 104 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 1: work on that. So I ended up working for Friends 105 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: of the Earth and they may be their UK climate campaigner, 106 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: and that was fantastic. Now, when you got into the 107 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: work of trying to get legislation passed on climate, let's 108 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: first just understand why there was a need for climate 109 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 1: change legislation in the UK at all. Well, I was 110 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: really clear that we had a kind of approach to 111 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: tackling climate change which wasn't working because if you look 112 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 1: at the data in the nineties, late eighties, early nineties, 113 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: there was a discernible trend down because we were closing 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: down coal stations and replacing them with gas stations, and 115 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: they were both newer, so they were more efficient and 116 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 1: less polluting. And then something happened around the sort of 117 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: mid nineteen nineties where it stopped happening and emissions started 118 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: spiking up with again. And because the power sector is 119 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: so dominant, such a big portion of the emissions, if 120 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 1: the power sector starts to emit more, the whole economy 121 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 1: starts to emit more. And it was basically down to coal. 122 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: Coal was coming back online because gas was getting more expensive, 123 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: and the Labor government had come in and said moratorium 124 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: on any new gas stations. We want to hold onto 125 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: the coal industry for political reasons. So it was clear 126 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,239 Speaker 1: that the government had no policy on this and because 127 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,520 Speaker 1: of us, this big swing happening on commodity prices between 128 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: gas and coal. There was nothing in the sort of 129 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: tool kit that addressed that. So I just kind of 130 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 1: decided we needed a whole economy approach and we needed 131 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: to make all of government responsible. There was a mood 132 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: in the UK at that time where we wanted to act. 133 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: Around the turn of the millennium, there were lots of 134 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: news stories, headline coverage back climate. There was a heat 135 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 1: wave early two thousands that really shocked people with a 136 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: lot of deaths in France. In a period of six 137 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 1: weeks from late July to the end of August, over 138 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand people were killed in France by heat exhaustion, 139 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: dehydration and heat stroke. The atmosphere was in favor of 140 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: something big being done, and that's why we launched the 141 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,160 Speaker 1: Big Ask campaign, and that's with the Friends of the 142 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Earth and there was a very specific, clear ask in 143 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: the big, big ask what was it? That was the asking? 144 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: How did you come to it? So myself and a 145 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: couple of colleagues sat down and that's all good. I 146 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: did start, you know, just with a blank piece of 147 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: paper and drew out some graphs and said, well, what 148 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: do we actually want? And what we wanted at that 149 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: time was emissions to be constrained under a linear path, 150 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: and we wanted a three percent peranum reduction. That was 151 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: really what we wanted. The timing of the emissions cuts matters. 152 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: It's the area under the curve that creates the risk. 153 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: So we didn't want to leave it or the last 154 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,719 Speaker 1: moment and then suddenly dashed towards zero. We wanted to 155 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: start early and put constraints on the total emissions because 156 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: that's what determines the risk. So that was the kind 157 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 1: of slightly the esoteric thing that we were asking for. 158 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: But we created a campaign which was much more basic, 159 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: which was just saying we don't have climate laws, we 160 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: should have climate laws. And you know, we had an 161 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: advertising agency working with us and they produced really great 162 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: little short videos and we got celebrities involved, and then 163 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: you know, a sort of snowball started to really build 164 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,719 Speaker 1: and it just caught a moment in time. Yeah, Radiohead 165 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: made its way to the Big Gas campaign. It was wonderful. 166 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: Tom York rang Friends of the Earth proactively and he 167 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: would he would. He just said, I'm feeling I'm feeling 168 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: sad about this. I'm depressed. I want to know what 169 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: I can do to help. Can you tell me what 170 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,680 Speaker 1: I can do to help? And so we said, you 171 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: can help us, and he did. He helped us launch 172 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: the campaign. To be perfectly honest, the best thing about 173 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: the Big Ask thing for me is the fact that 174 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: there's no longer this sense of powerlessness and three is 175 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: what I had for so long about it all. The 176 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: government is the only place where you can actually sort 177 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: of say, this is what's going to happen. Everybody's going 178 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: to have to deal with it. I'm going to get 179 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: on with it now. When the Climate Change Act passed, 180 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: only three members of Parliament opposed the bill, while four 181 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: hundred and sixty three boarded in favor. Every party supported it. 182 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 1: Why did it get so much support? It happened because 183 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: we had this populars who were educated, Because we had 184 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: the media carrying good stories about climate change. We had 185 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: NGO's putting out really good information on climate change, we 186 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: had scientists, We've got a lot of scientists in the 187 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: UK work on climate change, so there's a steady stream 188 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: of information. And I think there was a feeling that 189 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: if you didn't take this seriously, you'd be punished in 190 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: the polls or it would be seen that you weren't 191 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: a serious party. And also David Cameron had come in 192 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: as leader of the Conservatives, and he'd obviously realized that 193 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 1: he needed to rebrand them and came up with this 194 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:41,839 Speaker 1: concept of an oak tree as their new brand, and 195 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: obviously done lots of polling and went out famously to 196 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: Hugger Husky. And so when Friends of the Earth went 197 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 1: to him and said, look, we really want a new 198 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: comprehensive set of laws on climate change, he was like, yeah, okay, 199 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: I'll deliver that if you let me into government. That 200 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,040 Speaker 1: then meant the pressure was on the other party's to 201 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: degree you kind of hit a lot of lucky circumstances. 202 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: But then more broadly, the bill itself is pretty hard 203 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: to object to. It's not utopians, it's not saying shut 204 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,359 Speaker 1: everything down. It's just saying let's have a sensible framework 205 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: and let's keep ourselves focused. That wasn't that much you 206 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: could really object to, and it had a really good 207 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: run through Parliament. It's got strengthened in Parliament, which was fantastic. 208 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: Now I want to move to the current moment. Trust 209 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: as the new prime minister. It's only been a week 210 00:11:28,559 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 1: and a bit and the most pressing challenge for her 211 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: is orchestrating the government's response to record high energy prices. 212 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: What would you do if you were a prime minister? 213 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: It what a lovely question. Well, I mean, fortunately, now 214 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: we are in a situation where the solutions to climate 215 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: change and the solsion to air quality and the solutions 216 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: to high prices are all the same thing, which is, 217 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: you use less energy and you use cleaner energy, all 218 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: the errors appointing the same direction. So what you would 219 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:00,840 Speaker 1: do is you'd run a massive campaign of insulation so 220 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: that our homes become less leaky, and you would double 221 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: down on the fastest to deploy clean electricity sources, and 222 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: you'd get building. Now she's got the last bit about 223 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 1: getting building, But unfortunately, for whatever reason, the things they're 224 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: going to build are going to be more oil and 225 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: gas potentially, and that's a sort of false solution unfortunately, 226 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: but you can see where it comes from in the party. 227 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: But she has also promised to cap energy prices, which 228 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: is sort of going to give a blank check to 229 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: oil and gas companies. Yeah, I mean, we're going to 230 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: pay at some point, aren't we, Whether it's through higher 231 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: taxation in the long run or worst credit ratings. We 232 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: just don't know what the full consequence will be of 233 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 1: this big intervention into the market. The problem is it's 234 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:47,319 Speaker 1: really hard to change energy pricing because it's a global 235 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: market and we don't have global rules at the moment, 236 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: so every country is trying to struggle with this. And 237 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 1: we get our gas About forty five of our gas 238 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,600 Speaker 1: comes from our own sources in the North Sea, but 239 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: we can't control those prices because it's not state owned 240 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 1: and those companies are charging what they can get away with. 241 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: So really we've got to find other sources. But over 242 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: the last twenty years, we've basically been investing in offshore 243 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: wind because I believe it or not, the UK is 244 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: the Saudi Arabia of wind, and we've been harnessing that 245 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,559 Speaker 1: in ever more efficient turbines and developing a whole new 246 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: source of income and stability from the North Sea. So 247 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: that's where the future is and that won't be stopped. 248 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: That will continue. But politically, of course, it's an easy 249 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: message to say we're going to take every last drop 250 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: of oil and gas out of the North Sea. That's 251 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: not the long term answer. I didn't expect you to 252 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: use a Boris Johnson phrase on wind energy power. We 253 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 1: want to be the Saudi Arabia of window, the Saudi Arabia. 254 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: That's that's not Johnson, he's borrowed. That's at ye potential. 255 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 1: I mean, we've got over a huge, huge gas of wind. Now, 256 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: what are the mechanisms within the Climate Change Act that 257 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: make it an effective piece of legislation today. There's a few. Then. 258 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,439 Speaker 1: One one is the what I call the legal tronome, 259 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: which is you must do this action by this date 260 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: and if not you can be judicially reviewed, you need 261 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: to be taken to court. And that requires them to 262 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: set carbon budgets, report on budgets, set policies for budgets. 263 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: The carbon budget is just a limit on the total 264 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: amount of emissions that the government can emit in any 265 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: five year period and every five years that limit is 266 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: decreased so that eventually they'll reach net zero. Yeah, so 267 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 1: that creates a framework which they are legally obliged to 268 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: stick to no matter what's happening in the political cycle. 269 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: And that's important because these net zero goals there are 270 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: decades out and having a timely requirement which fits within 271 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: the sort of political cycle will keep the politicians honest 272 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: and accountable, that's right. So famously, long distance targets are 273 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: easy to sign up to because they're not in your 274 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: term of office, and it sort of keeps the momentum 275 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:58,760 Speaker 1: because setting a long distant target and then forgetting about 276 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: it is a disaster as far as the climates concerned. 277 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 1: And so the legal metronome really is like a time 278 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: bound thing. And that's one mechanism. What else is there 279 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: in the Climate Change Act? So there are a number 280 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: of other really important features, not least the creation of 281 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: the Committee on Climate Change, which is an independent body 282 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: that's outside government and provides independent advice on the setting 283 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: of the targets and the budgets. And they can be 284 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: called on for all sorts of advice, and they also 285 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: keep an eye on the policies to see if they 286 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: are adding up we also Part three of the Act 287 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: is very enabling. We took a bunch of enabling powers 288 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: that future governments could use to bring in different policies 289 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 1: that we're kind of help them get to the targets. 290 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: So we I think part of the reason why the 291 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: bill was so popular was that we didn't dictate the 292 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,240 Speaker 1: precise way in which you could get to your targets, 293 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: but we gave them mechanisms and so that was way 294 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: of selling it to people. Now the UK has met 295 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 1: the first, second, and third carbon budgets. Yes, they're said 296 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: three at a time they bore out fifteen years out. Yeah, 297 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: the first three for a second have been met or 298 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 1: the third they're about to meet this year. Yes, just 299 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: closing now, isn't it. Twenty three is the start of 300 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: the next one. And then there's fourth and fifth and 301 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: sixth carbon budget which they are not on track to 302 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: me now, So what happened to keep them on track 303 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: for the first, second, and third and why are they 304 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: not on track for the fourth? The first things they 305 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: sat really very loose budgets within government. They persuaded themselves 306 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: that they should go easy at the start, which is 307 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: completely the wrong way around. And thinking about it. If 308 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: you think about climate, you should go hard at the 309 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: start as fast as you can get all the low 310 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: hanging fr other way, because then you're gonna have a 311 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: lower emissions curve over time. But that's not what happened. 312 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: They set three very generous budgets. So now we're back 313 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,800 Speaker 1: onto a property directory where we're setting tougher targets that 314 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: are more in line with the long term goals, and 315 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: that's why they're harder. And so if the first three 316 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: carbon budgets were easy enough to meet, we've kind of 317 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: picked the low hanging fruit. And the UK has done 318 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: really well on offshore wind, which has made the technology 319 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: cheaper and that's allowing the deployment to happen, not just 320 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: in the UK but elsewhere in the world. How big 321 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 1: a deal do you think this decarbonization of electricity has been. Yeah, 322 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,399 Speaker 1: so it's been interesting watching the power sector transition, and 323 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: we shouldn't skip over that. What's happened in off shore 324 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: wind is incredible. And the fact we have now floating platforms, 325 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: you know, that's it is. It's truly transformed the industry 326 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: and we've kept we've done sensible things, we've kept nuclear, 327 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: we've always had hydro. You know, we've done electricity. Well, 328 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: now it gets into the point where what do we 329 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: do about the other sectors. And actually, the reason you 330 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: start with electricity is twofold one. It's not really a 331 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: traded commodity, So you're not going to expose to really 332 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: competitive distortions if you do things to that market, because 333 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: you can't just upsticks and get your electricity from somewhere else. 334 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: The second reason you do it is because electricity is 335 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: the enabler of decarbonization in the other sectors. So electrify 336 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: everything is a pretty good proxy for how you sort 337 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:52,160 Speaker 1: out climate change. Decarbonized electricity and an electric everything, and 338 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: we're starting to do that. And then you get to heat, 339 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: and again it was a big debate, you know, oh, 340 00:17:57,359 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: well are we sure? How do we how do we 341 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,479 Speaker 1: decarbonize build buildings that need heat? And actually, now it's 342 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: becoming really clear that it's heat pumps, an electric heat 343 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: that's going to sort that out too. Hydrogen may play role, 344 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: but again I think just the physics of it are 345 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: not going to really make it competitive, and so the 346 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: really hard stuff is going to start hitting things like agriculture, industry, transport. 347 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 1: Tell us what the government can do with the legislation 348 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: it has in plays and whether there's need for future 349 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: legislation to meet these goals. So we do have these 350 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: enabling powers I mentioned, and they are going to be 351 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: used to bring in, for example, the hundred percent clean 352 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: mandate and transport. So we're going to Michael go famous 353 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: he said he was going to ban the sale of 354 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: ice vehicles vehicles, and he was the Environment secretary, he 355 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: was the environment sectorally at the time. And the way 356 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: that's going to actually be brought in to bear is 357 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: through an obligation to sell electric vehicles and that was 358 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: enabled through the powers that were already in the Climate 359 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: Change Act. So that's a good example of where the 360 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: whole segment of the emissions is going to be hopefully 361 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: now tackled. Finally, there are other mechanisms that government has 362 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: that don't require legislation. So, for example, in agriculture, it's 363 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: kind of unique in that it has a huge amount 364 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: of public money going into already in subsidy, and that 365 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: same Michael Goo famously said that they would only make 366 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,239 Speaker 1: payments now for public money for public good and one 367 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: of those public goods is the climate. The big thing 368 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: there is livestock and how do you get slightly well, 369 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: a lot fewer sheep and cows in our landscape. That's 370 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: going to be the big challenge, and that is coming, 371 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: but probably won't be the first thing they try and 372 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: tackle now. The UK is also being forced to keep 373 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: coal power plants open through the winter. It's giving out 374 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,640 Speaker 1: fossil fuel licenses. The Climate Change Act has survived all 375 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: sorts of crises in the past, financial crisis, Brexit, multiple 376 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: prime ministers, COVID recession, but now feels really dire. The 377 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: UK's energy crisis and inflation is really making people question 378 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: whether we keep on the track. Do you think the 379 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: current moment pauses a challenge to the Act itself. I 380 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: don't think so, because I think the solutions are the 381 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: same to the problem. Right, So, why we've got a problem, 382 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: it's because fossil fuels are very volatile and we don't 383 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: have enough indigenous fossil fuels to meet our energy needs. 384 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: Even in gas where we have the North Sea gas, 385 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: fifty percent of what we consume is imported. So there 386 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 1: is no real scenario where we are independent on fossil 387 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 1: and that anyone who thinks that fracking is the answer 388 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: is nuts. Really, the UK's geography and social kind of 389 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: structure doesn't allow it. So the answer is more indigenous sources. 390 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: And our indigenous sources are We're an islanded nation with 391 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: offshore wind that can provide a huge amount. We're going 392 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: to interconnect to all parts of different parts of Europe 393 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: so that we can dock into a transmission network that 394 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 1: acts as a battery for us. Will build nuclear because 395 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: that will be domestic and secure and it won't come 396 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 1: on stream for the next couple of decads. It's not 397 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: a fast solution, but it's the ultimate solution to fossil fuels, 398 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: to have renewables and nuclear providing you with large amounts 399 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: of clean electricity, and then transmission connectors to improve your interconnectedness, 400 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: so that narrative is not going to change. And well, 401 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: we forgot to mention energy efficiency. If you're facing really 402 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: high fuel bills, people will find alternatives and work out 403 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: how to reduce their use, so that demand destruction will 404 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: also happen. And just at the time when you know 405 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: petrol prices are through, the roof evs are coming to 406 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: market and they're proving to be popular and cheap and 407 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: affordable to run. And fun to drive. So you know 408 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: that lonely hasten the long term shift to electric transport. 409 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: What happens if the UK falls off track and does 410 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: not meet if uture common budget? There could be lots 411 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: suits right absolutely that, yes, as we've already seen the 412 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: first one be successful. There would be I'm sure judicial 413 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: proceedings brought potentially by green groups and that would then 414 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: require a judge to decide what the reparation is that 415 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: the government has to make. And we were always hoping 416 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: a sensible judge would say, well, you have to pay 417 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,919 Speaker 1: to find money from the treasury to pay for the 418 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: over emissions that you've allowed to be emitted, maybe against 419 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: the social costal carbon, which would be the sort of 420 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 1: the price that academics think h Ton is causing in 421 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: terms of impact. And of course in July twenty twenty 422 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 1: two there was a ruling the judge did not ask 423 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: the UK to pay, but it did say the government 424 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 1: has to outline how exactly at zero policies will achieve 425 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: the emissions targets it has. And the people behind those 426 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: lawsuits were civil society groups like Friends of the Earth 427 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: and Client Earth and the Good Law Project. Yeah yeah, yeah, 428 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: So I've Alrea had he had our first example, and 429 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 1: that was interesting because that was a court case about 430 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:48,080 Speaker 1: future action, not a retrospective. You've already failed. So I 431 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: think clearly that civil society values this piece of legislation, 432 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: is watching it carefully and doing what's necessary to keep 433 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: the government honest. Let's take the worst case scenario. We've 434 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: talked about how climate laws, once in place, can help 435 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: hold a government into account, but laws are also made 436 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: by government. Could the new government scrap the Climate Change 437 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: Act altogether? They could, but they've got their hands full 438 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: with other issues, and I really think why would you 439 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: pick that fight right now? It's still got huge support 440 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: amongst the public, and huge support Amoks, backbench MP's, and 441 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 1: they also know that we've still got that civil society 442 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 1: group out there that if this were even really ever 443 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: to become a serious problem, you'd see people mobilizing. And 444 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: we all know els it's not the root cause of 445 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: the problem. So you'd be creating all this pain for 446 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: yourself without actually helping. So why why do it? I 447 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: think it won't rise the tough of anyone's agenda. Is 448 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: that One reason why one of the first things that 449 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: the new Prime Minister did was to set out a 450 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: review of how the government is going to reach its 451 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: nancier target. Secondly, we will conduct a review to ensure 452 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: we deliver net zero by twenty fifty in a way 453 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: that is pro business and pro growth. So I think 454 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,400 Speaker 1: the review of net zero is actually not a bad 455 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,880 Speaker 1: idea because if you think what's happened is the government's 456 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: made interventions into markets to try to correct for the 457 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: externality of climate change. So you start interviewing one way, 458 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: then you have to do another intervention and another intervention. 459 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: There's an energy bill going through at the moment which 460 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: is bringing in an further intervention in favor of carbon 461 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: capture and storage. We have a Nuclear Financing Act that 462 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: was passed, so there's been a lot of government intervention 463 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 1: and I suspect what the government wants to do is 464 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: have a little look at how does this all this 465 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,719 Speaker 1: inter relate. Is there a simpler, more effective way of 466 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: doing this to give clarity about what our intentions are. 467 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: But it's not a bad thing for us to keep 468 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: asking ourselves, are we doing this in the most efficient 469 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: way possible? And so this you don't think is pandering 470 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: to the climate skeptic audience that is there in some 471 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: wings of the Conservative Party, but also in some political 472 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: margins the UK broadly. It could have been, but I 473 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: don't think it is. And what's good about now is 474 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: that the incumbency has shifted. There are people out there 475 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: who now are very vocal about how beneficial net zero 476 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: is and they will put forward their evidence. And the 477 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: power companies, the electricity sector has really shifted in the 478 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: last twenty years. They used to be a huge impediment 479 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: because they were mostly running thermal plant and didn't want 480 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: anything to happen to change the profitability of those plants. 481 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: And now nearly all of them have got a diverse 482 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: portfolio with a lot of clean in it, and some 483 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: of them are solely clean. And they're going to have 484 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: an influence and they're going to want to make sure 485 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: that their investments don't get derailed. I think you'll have. 486 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: It'll be good because it'll draw out the evidence and 487 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: that's probably what a new cabinet needs. Despite the challenges, 488 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: the UK has got more emissions than any other major economy. 489 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: What can others learn from how the UK did it? 490 00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:04,479 Speaker 1: That's coming up after the break now. One thing that 491 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: many people will find surprising is that the UK has 492 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: got the most emissions among rich countries in the world. 493 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: Its emissions have declined forty percent since nineteen ninety. Yeah, 494 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: he's seen the lovely graph of how we've decombanized their 495 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: electricity system faster than any country on the planet. It's brilliant. Yeah. Now, 496 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: how much of that is because of the Climate Change Act? Oh? Well, yeah, 497 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: the Climate Change Act is a long term thing, and 498 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: that decombanization was already underway. And that's an interesting story 499 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: in itself because in the late nineties, actually early nineties, 500 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 1: you were starting to see privatization of the electricity sector, 501 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: which was putting enormous pressure on the nuclear industry, and 502 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 1: so they lobbied very effectively for a support mechanism that 503 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: would mean they could still compete in an open market, 504 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 1: and it's called a non fossil fuel obligation and that 505 00:26:55,840 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: was widened from beyond nuclear into all clean and that 506 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: gave a market in wind and that piece of policy 507 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: really kickstarted an ann immersive industry that's now you know, 508 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 1: at the giguat scale through successive policies, and that was 509 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: helped by the European Union passing renewables targets, legally binding 510 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: renewables targets on all member states, and the Climate Change 511 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: Act provided a good framework, but I couldn't to hand 512 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 1: on hard. It wouldn't have happened without the Climate Change Act. 513 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: What the Climate Change Act come where I think that 514 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: comes into its own is ensuring that this is not 515 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 1: just about one sector, but it's at all sectors, and 516 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: we don't just stop at one. One thing we shouldn't 517 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,640 Speaker 1: discount is the soft effect. And I've seen this sort 518 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: of firsthand. Really, a project that was being discussed by 519 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: a power company was coming in with the economics of 520 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,360 Speaker 1: it was a clean energy project, hydro project. The economics 521 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: were marginal, but in the deck that they used to 522 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 1: come to a conclusion on whether to invest, they had 523 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: a slide on the Climate Change Act, and really the 524 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: message was all things being equal, given the Climate Change Act, 525 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: clean power is going to have a premium in the future. 526 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: So that helped tip in favor of the project. So 527 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: it's had a transformative effect of the direction of travel 528 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: is clear, and it's illegally backed, so there's no doubting 529 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: that that's going to be in place. With all the 530 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: political backing that it has. We've seen similar acts being 531 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,400 Speaker 1: passed in New Zealand, in Sweden, in France. Just last 532 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: week Australia's new climate legislation was passed, So it's not 533 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: as comprehensive as the UK's, but it's at least set 534 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: a target that the country is now legally bound to meet. 535 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: What have they taken on board? And are there things 536 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: that they've done that are interesting and different? The Swedish 537 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: ones interesting because they've gone early. You know, they've gone 538 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: to zero early, and I believe that they're planning to 539 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 1: go negative, so they've already gone beyond that. Because really, 540 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: what countries like the UK should be thinking is not 541 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: just our own flow of emissions on an annual basis. 542 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: That's relatively straightforward. We're not a big emitter. What we 543 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: should be doing is thinking about the historic the liability 544 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: that we've built up over the one hundred plus years 545 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,000 Speaker 1: post industrial revolution. So we've got to be paying back 546 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800 Speaker 1: and that's the equitable way of doing it. Because if 547 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: you go to a country like India and say hey, 548 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: you know we've decarbonized and now you need to they're like, well, hang, 549 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: we didn't even carbonize, so you know you've got rich 550 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: on the back of this. Now you're telling us to stop. 551 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: That seems a little unfair given up capita emissions are tiny. 552 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: The UK has too, I think embrace the fact that 553 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: we're going beyond zero. I think New Zealand's interesting because 554 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: they've got a very different emissions profile. Most of their 555 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: emissions come from land use sector, whether that's livestock or 556 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 1: a forestry, so they've have been grappling with the problems 557 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: of methane and how do they really do land us 558 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: well and they've done some really interesting things. They've put 559 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: some senses into their forests to try and work out 560 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: genuinely empirically which the forests that are sinks which are not, 561 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: so that they base it on science and that's really interesting. 562 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: We're going to have to do something similar suspect the 563 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: land used and land used change. Parts of the budgets 564 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: are a little fuzzy and they're used by countries because 565 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: they're not very precise. So that's going to have to 566 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: be a lot more fine tuned and New Zealand's probably 567 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: at the forefront of that. Knowing what you know now, 568 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,959 Speaker 1: is there a generalizable formula that you would apply for 569 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: a climate act that any country could pass. I think 570 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: there are some features that So one is try to 571 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: make it a technology agnostic framework, because the minute you 572 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: get into picking winners at that level, you get into fights, 573 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 1: and so everyone's got their favorite idea of what the 574 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: solution is going to be, So try and keep out 575 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: of that and put in a framework that's truly just 576 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: about the outcome, not the means. I think the probably 577 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: the other thing I learned was that ambition and flexibility correlated. 578 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: So if you put a lot of ambition into something, 579 00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 1: you need flexibility and vice versas. So why we have 580 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: five year budgets is it gives government five years to 581 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: sort themselves out, not a single year. And that's why 582 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: we could get three of them. You know, it was 583 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: a trade off. I wanted nine, I got three. And 584 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: so you know, there those flexibilities that make it possible 585 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: for politicians or for civil servants to go, Okay, we'll 586 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: live with this, And that's an important thing to bear 587 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: in mind when you're drafting. So when the Climate Change 588 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: Jack passed, the target was to reach eighty percent reduction 589 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: in emissions relative to nineteen ninety levels by twenty fifty. 590 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: Lots of numbers by the target was eighty percent reduction 591 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: that then got upgraded to net zero by twenty fifty. 592 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: In the process, other targets had to be changed, and 593 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: so the new UK target is a nearly eighty percent 594 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: reduction by twenty thirty five. Is that down to the act? 595 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: Is it down to the politics? I think it's done 596 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: to a few factors. I mean, one is the fact 597 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: that the crisis is getting ever more pressing and evidence 598 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: is piling up everywhere. But I also think that the 599 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,680 Speaker 1: technologies that we were going to need to make the 600 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: transition coming down in price, and they're becoming more trusted 601 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: and more normal to investors and stakeholders. So we've got 602 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: potential to move faster now. And I think public pressure 603 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: on politics isn't going to go away. I mean, we've 604 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: broke up people who we know who have been hit 605 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: by the impacts of climate change. I mean, Pakistan is 606 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: currently still underwater and it's there. These are events that 607 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: I don't think when I started out thirty years ago, 608 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: I was expecting to see now maybe twenty forty towards 609 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 1: the end of my life, not right now. So everything's 610 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: happening on a much more curtailed time scale. The field 611 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: scientists that you speak to are pretty freaked out at 612 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: how fast this is going. So that pressure to keep 613 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 1: doing more is just going to keep increasing. The original 614 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: target has been brought forward fifteen years. Is that going 615 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 1: to happen again? Oh? I hope. So I really think 616 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: that the UK is really well placed to show that 617 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: you can continually ratchet. I mean, that's what the whole 618 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: of the Paris Agreement is based on, is that industrialized nations, 619 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: once they get going, you're going to realize, actually, this 620 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: isn't as bad as we thought. In fact, it's saving 621 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: us money in certain places. Let's go faster. So if 622 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: that's the case, there's absolutely no reason why we can't 623 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: get to net zero before twenty fifty. And you remember 624 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: that this is a global challenge. So I would love 625 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 1: the UK government to acknowledge that they can go beyond 626 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: zero by helping other countries decarbonize. And the UK, among 627 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: industrialized nations, probably has a bigger responsibility given it was 628 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 1: among the first to industrialize. With all that call that 629 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: went out, I mean, the historical emissions if we take 630 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: a cumulative that puts this small island very high up 631 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: top in its historical impact on YA crisis. Now I'm 632 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: glad you've said that, because when we were trying to 633 00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:39,240 Speaker 1: discuss the need for this legislation in government, we would 634 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: be a lot of economic analysis thrown out us that 635 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 1: said there was no point in the UK leading because 636 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: the farmers that supposed to be a fast follower when 637 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: the costs of the technologies had already come down and 638 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: we'd benefit from them. But we would go back to 639 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: that with a moral argument and say, for we didn't 640 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 1: do that with the Industrial Revolution. We led the world 641 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: into this problem through the Industrial Revolution and we we 642 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: benefited hugely from being the first first runner, So why 643 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: would that not be the same now? And that's what 644 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: we managed, i think, to persuade government of that there 645 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 1: was upside and there was an absolute moral imperative to act. 646 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 1: Now you're making me change my mind a little bit 647 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: about politics here by saying morality counts, well, you know 648 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 1: it does, doesn't. It's the primacy of all of this 649 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: detailed economic analysis. It's been shown to be a little 650 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,240 Speaker 1: bit inadequate for the complexity of how you look after 651 00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: the world or how you look after your country. Even 652 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,960 Speaker 1: you know, it's a much more complex problem than the 653 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 1: economists would have you believe, and therefore morality and judgment 654 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: absolutely comes into it. So it matters who your leaders are. 655 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: It matters who the sectory state is, and who the 656 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,160 Speaker 1: junior ministers are because they're going to be making judgment calls, 657 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: and it matters who the captains of industry are they 658 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: also make judgment calls. You know, there's an awful lot 659 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 1: of non technical decision making that happens, and we need 660 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: that to be done with an eye to history and 661 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,760 Speaker 1: an i'd the past, and it is a moral question. 662 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: That was a great conversation. Thank you, Branny, well, thank you, 663 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: Actually I really enjoyed it. Let's good to go down 664 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: memory line but also to think about the challenges ahead. 665 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: So thank you. The UK has seen many governments since 666 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: this law was passed, too many if you ask some. 667 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: Yet in that time the UK's climate targets have only 668 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: become more ambitious. That's the stickiness of laws and why 669 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,720 Speaker 1: having them is so important. Thanks for listening to Zero. 670 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: If you like the show, please rate, review, and subscribe. 671 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd and Christine Driscoll 672 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Akshatarati. Our theme music is by Wonderly. 673 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: Have a suggestion for our topic someone you'd like to 674 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 1: hear from Email us at zero pod at bloomberg dot net. 675 00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: We'll see you next week.