1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Hello, it's or Hee. Before we get started, I wanted 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: to tell you that my new book, Oliver's Great Big 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: Universe Evolution Changes Everything, is coming out September sixteenth. It's 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: a great read for smart kids and smart adults with 5 00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:17,240 Speaker 1: lots of science, humor and heart. Check it out at 6 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: Great Big Universe dot net. Thanks a lot. Hey, welcome 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: to sign Stuff. Reproduction of iHeartRadio. I'm Poritchhim and Doday 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: were answering the question does money make you happy? Now? 9 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: This is the second part of a two part series 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: on happiness, so be sure to listen to part one. 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: In this episode, we're going to continue our conversation with 12 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 1: a couple of experts about what science says are the 13 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: factors that affect our happiness. We're going to talk about purpose, 14 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: stoicism and money. Does money make you happy? Or is 15 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: it the case as they say that more money means problems? 16 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:08,959 Speaker 1: The answer is coming up. Hey everyone, all right. In 17 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: the last episode, we talked about some of the main 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: factors that affect our happiness. Genetics is one of them, 19 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: and in a study that tracked the happiness of hundreds 20 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: of thousands of people, doctor Matt Killingsworth at the University 21 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: of Pennsylvania found three main factors that play a role 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: in how happy we feel. One living in the moment, 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: two having in person interactions with others, and three staying 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,320 Speaker 1: physically active. But these are not the only things that 25 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: make us happy. Here's more of my conversation with doctor Killingsworth. Now, 26 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: I wonder these three factors you mentioned. Are those the 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: three main factors because they have the highest impact on 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: our happiness? But do you mention these because these are 29 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: three that we have some control over. 30 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: It's some of both, but I think those are some 31 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,040 Speaker 2: of the biggest and most unified things I see, And 32 00:02:00,280 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 2: there are things that we could conceivably control. But you know, 33 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 2: there's other stuff that matters too. 34 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to spend the rest of the episode 35 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: talking about some of the other factors that affect our happiness, 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: starting with having a purpose in life? Does that make 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: you happy? Here's my friend and co author of the 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: book Out of Your Mind, Professor Dwayne Godwin of Wake 39 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Forest University. Let's talk about purpose, this idea that finding 40 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 1: purpose in your life will somehow lead to your happiness. 41 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: What do we know from psychology about purpose? 42 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 3: Well, purpose is important to a sense of well being. 43 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 3: For the most part, our psychology is wired to seek purpose. 44 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: There is a story about Victor Frankel, and Victor Frankel 45 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 3: famously wrote A Man's Search for meeting. He was in 46 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: a concentration camp during World War Two, you know, held 47 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 3: captive by the Nazis, and while he was imprisoned there, 48 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 3: he noticed that the people who survived often had some reason, 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: some purpose in their life to live, whether it was 50 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 3: taking care of a loved one, taking care of unfinished business, 51 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 3: or you know, their spiritual beliefs. And he wrote that 52 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 3: those who have a why to live can bear almost 53 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 3: me How so, you know that idea of being able 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: to find purpose even in the context of suffering is important. 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: How would you define purpose as it'sychology. 56 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 3: You know, helping others, you know, working on projects that 57 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 3: I find personally very satisfying. From a neuroscience perspective, purpose 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 3: activates again the brain's reward system. It does so more 59 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: consistently than something like a fleeting pleasure. Purpose driven individuals 60 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 3: tend to show higher activity in the prefrontal cortex because 61 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: again that's the place where you're doing these sorts of 62 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 3: assessments of positive emotional valance, and that's associated with things 63 00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 3: like long term planning, moral reasoning, and overall levels of satisfaction. 64 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: In other words, the idea of purpose, when your actions 65 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 1: align with a greater goal that you think has value, 66 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: is one way to activate your brains reward center, because 67 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: that's kind of how your brain is wired. This doctor 68 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: Garmin speculates probably came from how our brains evolved. But 69 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is that somehow our brain 70 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:28,039 Speaker 1: evolved to need purpose to be happy. 71 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: Well, our brain found a way to be happy when 72 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 3: we were being purposeful. You know, it could be that 73 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: from an evolutionary perspective, that having purpose. If you think 74 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: about now communities of early humans, Now that was a 75 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: trait that was selected for because having a purpose and 76 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 3: contributing to the community was obviously a great survival benefit 77 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 3: for the collective. And you can imagine that the opposite 78 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 3: of that, not having a purpose, would be somewhat counterproductive 79 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 3: to the community. 80 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: But I guess sometimes in our modern lives we can 81 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: get kind of stuck because we don't have a purpose. 82 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: I think that's right. I think that a real danger 83 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:09,600 Speaker 3: in our society when we have become so disconnected from 84 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: one another. You're not going to, you know, be scrolling 85 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 3: through Facebook and necessarily find your purpose. 86 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: I asked doctor Killingsworth if purpose was something he's seen 87 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:23,680 Speaker 1: in the data from the thousands of people who sign 88 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: up on Track Yourhappiness dot org. People mention things like 89 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: purpose a lot. Does that volunteer your non objective category. 90 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think to me, that's almost more 91 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 2: like an outcome than a predictor. I think a lot 92 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: of the things that bring us happiness, like living a 93 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: purposeful life, for a meaningful life, for all kinds of 94 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 2: other things to some degree or kind of satisfying fundamental 95 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 2: human needs because we're a social species, and so you know, 96 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 2: when you engage with other people, when you feel respected 97 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 2: by them, when you have all of these other like 98 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: social features, that would show up on all these other 99 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 2: different forms of happiness outcomes as well. 100 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,839 Speaker 1: What doctor Killingsworth is saying is that a happy life, 101 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: in a way will have its own purpose. Meaning you 102 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,480 Speaker 1: can think of having a purpose or aligning your actions 103 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: to your values as making you happy, or you can 104 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: think that finding things that make you happy aligns your 105 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: actions with your values, giving you a purpose. It's all 106 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: a feedback loop in your brain, so you can look 107 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 1: at it both ways. And this brings up another factor 108 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: that affects your happiness, which is how your brain reacts 109 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: to events. Let's talk about stoicism. What is that. 110 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, Stoicism is one of my favorite philosophical concepts. It 111 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:44,840 Speaker 3: was popularized by Marcus Aurelius, and for people who don't know, 112 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 3: he was the emperor in Gladiator, So at the beginning 113 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 3: of Gladiator he was the guy that was in charge 114 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: of Rome. So he was a Roman emperor. Russian here, 115 00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 3: not Russell Crowe. They were buddies, you know, at least 116 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 3: that's my memory of Gladiator. Marcus Aurelius was a Roman 117 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 3: emperor and he was a Stoic philosopher, and he was 118 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 3: very much into self regulation and how to regulate his 119 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 3: own emotions and his responses to things, because he felt, hey, 120 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 3: I have this important position. I need to be on 121 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 3: top of my game. And so he wrote down a 122 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: lot of reflections in the form of a journal. He 123 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: to remind himself how to deal with the world, how 124 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 3: to accept pain, how to accept change, and how to 125 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 3: deal with things like loss. He lived during a time 126 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 3: of plagues war, he lost several of his children that 127 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: his writings are filled with reminders to welcome challenges and 128 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 3: to focus on what is within one's own control. 129 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: Okay, you might be wondering what does ay Roman philosopher 130 00:07:52,760 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: have to do with science, and the answer is that 131 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: Stoicism and Marcus Aurelis's writing have become the base is 132 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 1: for something called cognitive behavioral therapy. 133 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah. Kinditive behavioral therapy is really one of the most popular, 134 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 3: i would say, and most widely subscribed counseling therapies where 135 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: you assess the world and what happens in the world 136 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 3: somewhat dispassionately, and negative self talk is diminished in your perception. 137 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 3: I think we an example. You know what happens if 138 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: you lost one hundred dollars out, Well, if I lose 139 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: this money, you know, there are two responses to it. 140 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,960 Speaker 3: One is, oh, I'm stupid. I shouldn't have lost that money. 141 00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: I really needed that money. I'm not going to be 142 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: able to make my rent, or I'm not going to 143 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,320 Speaker 3: be able to buy those shoes that I really wanted. 144 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 3: Those sorts of things, those sorts of negative self talk 145 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: bits that can help to really drive our mood and 146 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 3: our emotions to a negative place. But the other way 147 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: to look at it is, hey, you know it is money. 148 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: It's replaceable in the ground scheme of things. You will 149 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 3: probably get that one hundred dollars back through some way 150 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 3: or another. And yes, I lost one hundred dollars, but 151 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 3: someone else, perhaps someone who really needed that money, will 152 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 3: will find that money. Now, it doesn't really blunt the 153 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 3: fact that you lost a hundred bucks. But what it 154 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 3: does do is allows you the emotional space to process 155 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 3: that and not allow it to drive your total emotional response. 156 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: It's about taking a step back and that that gives 157 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: you the power to kind of choose how you're going 158 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: to interpret what happened. 159 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 3: I think that's a good way to put it. 160 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 1: If you've been to therapy, this idea of changing the 161 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: way you look at things might be familiar to you. 162 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: And this is important because you might remember from the 163 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: Happiness Tracking project that mind wandering, especially mind wandering negative thoughts, 164 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: is highly correlated with unhappiness. Well, according to doctor Godwin, 165 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: the solution is not to stop having negative thoughts, but 166 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: to train your brain to change how you view those thoughts. 167 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,680 Speaker 3: You know, if you talked about the neuroscience of cognitive 168 00:10:06,720 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: behavioral therapy. I think that there are two elements to it. 169 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 3: One is engaging these sort of logical based areas of 170 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 3: the brain, areas like prefrontal cortext but it's also the 171 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 3: process of slowing things down so that you have time 172 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 3: to process. We know from the neuroscience literature that activity 173 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 3: and patterns of activity actually are capable of rewiring the brain. 174 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 3: So learning to take a step back and providing different 175 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 3: thought patterns that can effectively change your response should the 176 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: same set of circumstances arise in the future. 177 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: In other words, you can train your brain to see 178 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,920 Speaker 1: things on the bright side, which the data shows will 179 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: make you happier. All right, Now, we're going to get 180 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 1: to the question of money. And here I'm going to 181 00:10:53,320 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: guess you believe one of two things, One that money 182 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: doesn't really make you happy, or two that money does 183 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 1: make you happy, but only up to a certain point. Well, 184 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: if you believe either of those things, I'm here to 185 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: tell you that the size of happiness says you're wrong. 186 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: We're going to get into that after the break, will 187 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: be right back and we're back right. We're talking about 188 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,680 Speaker 1: the different factors that affect your happiness, and now we 189 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: get to the topic of money. Does money make you happy? Well, 190 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: According to doctor Killingsworth, for a long time, the conventional 191 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: wisdom in scientific circles was that the answer was no. 192 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 2: So if you go back to the state of the 193 00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 2: scientific literature, I think the kind of common narrative amongst 194 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: happiness researchers is that money doesn't really matter very much 195 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: for happiness, like especially given how much people seem to 196 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 2: care about it. While there's something that's true about that 197 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: that I'll mention in a minute, I think we actually 198 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 2: got that kind of wrong. It turns out that people 199 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 2: who make more money are pretty consistently happier. You know, 200 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 2: on average, people who earn more tend to be happier. 201 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 2: You could be rich and miserable, you could be poor 202 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: and very happy, but on average, flipping the money switch 203 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: up without making other things worse probably is going to 204 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: nudge you in a positive rather than a negative direction. Least, 205 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 2: that's kind of the shape of the correlation that I observe. 206 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:30,839 Speaker 1: Now I know what you're thinking at this point, which 207 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: is yes or Hey, of course money helps make you happy. 208 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: He need some money to survive, to have something to eat, 209 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: and to have a roof over your head. But surely 210 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: at some point money stops being useful, And that's what 211 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: I thought too, So I asked doctor Killyesworth this question. 212 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: Is there an amount after which money will not make 213 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: you happier? Or is having more money always better? 214 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: Well, that's a good question. You've hit on one of kind 215 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 2: of the key topics here. Starting around twenty ten, there's 216 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 2: this very famous paper by Dannykanneman and ingus student where 217 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 2: they found that while cognitive aspects of well being seemed 218 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 2: to keep rising with income, they argued that the emotional 219 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 2: component of happiness rises up to around seventy five thousand 220 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 2: dollars a year in income, and then it plateaus. And 221 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 2: when I run into regular people, if they know like 222 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: one thing about the signs of happiness or what is 223 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 2: the data show, it's probably that finding. That's like the 224 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: one thing that probably the most people know. 225 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, you might have heard about it in the news. 226 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: The study from Dustin and ten supposedly found that making 227 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: more money makes you happier, but only up to about 228 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: making seventy five thousand dollars in income a year, and 229 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: after that it doesn't make you any happier. And this 230 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: finding was very popular, I think because it confirms what 231 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: we all want to believe, which is that money isn't everything, 232 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: that rich people are not necessarily happier than the rest 233 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: of us. But actually, when doctor Killingsworth looked into it, 234 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: this turned out to be not quite true. 235 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 2: One of the things that I've been working on in 236 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: the last few years is kind of unpacking this relationship. 237 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: So I've now run this big set of using experience 238 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: sampling a really really great way to measure how people 239 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 2: are actually feeling. And it turns out in my big study, 240 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: when I look at the relationship between how much money 241 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: people earn and how happy they really feel in the 242 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 2: moments of their lives, happiness in the moment just keeps 243 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 2: going up. There wasn't an inflection point at seventy five 244 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: thousand dollars or any other particular level of income. There 245 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 2: didn't seem to be any threshold where that relationship change. 246 00:14:31,600 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 2: It just sort of kept going modestly but steadily. 247 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: Upward, meaning people with more money have fewer negative in 248 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 1: the moment happiness. 249 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, just kind of their average moment gets a little 250 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: bit better and a little bit better the more money 251 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: they tend to be earning. So people are more satisfied 252 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: and more fulfilled and find life more meaningful on average 253 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: to a modest degree. When they earn more money, I 254 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 2: see and their day to day experiences seem to be 255 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 2: better as well. 256 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: So more money, not more problems, More money, fewer problem 257 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: on average. What doctor Klein'sworth found was that an average, 258 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: having more money always makes you happier. That's true if 259 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: you're poor or if you're already rich. Getting more money 260 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: in general will make you even happier. This doesn't just 261 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: show up in doctor Kleinsworth data. There have been natural 262 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: experiments that prove this. 263 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: Money is hard to experiment with compared to lots of 264 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: other things, but we have pretty good evidence that when 265 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 2: people are like randomly assigned more money, they actually become 266 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: substantially happier as well. There are some nice natural experiments, 267 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 2: for example, called lotteries, So there are some great studies 268 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 2: that have been done where they've looked at people who 269 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 2: play the lottery a similar amount. But then some people 270 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 2: win and some people don't. Uh, and when you follow 271 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: those people up later, the people who want and got 272 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 2: more money actually turn out to be happier and sometimes 273 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 2: quite a bit and sometimes for quite a long time. 274 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 2: There was a great study I think it was in 275 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: Sweden where they looked at people ten years later after 276 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,479 Speaker 2: they won. It's a pretty decently sized effect. 277 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: Now, to be fair, one thing that doctor Kellingsworth found 278 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: that doesn't get better with more money is stress. 279 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: However, when I look at like, what is like the 280 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 2: emotional profile of people who are earning more money, they're 281 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 2: not necessarily less stressed. That's kind of the one emotion 282 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: that doesn't really get better when you earn more and 283 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 2: more and more money. So if you think, hmm, it'll 284 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 2: be great, you know, when my income is doubled, you 285 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: might not be any less stressed. But pretty much every 286 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: aspect of kind of your emotional life, at least my 287 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: data would predict, are probably going to be better. 288 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: In other words, if someone offers you money, you should 289 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 1: take it. On average, having money will only increase your happiness, 290 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: even if it doesn't make you less stressed. Now, of course, 291 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: there are several caveats here. Number one, this relationship between 292 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: money and happiness is on average, having more money doesn't 293 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: guarantee you're going to be happier. And number two, money 294 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: isn't everything. It's just one of the many things that 295 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: contribute to your happiness. 296 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 2: It's just one of the many leavers. So I think 297 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: the part that's really true and importantly true is that 298 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: tons of things matter for happiness, and money and income 299 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 2: is just one of them. So if you sacrifice all 300 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: kinds of other sources of happiness and make more money, 301 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 2: you're probably going to be less happy, even if money 302 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: is helpful. 303 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 1: Now, one interesting fact about money and happiness is said 304 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: having more money on average will make you happier, but 305 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: having friends or neighbors that make more money than you 306 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:39,879 Speaker 1: will tend to make you unhappier. In one study, researchers 307 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: from the London School of Economics look at data from 308 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: a survey of Americans from nineteen seventy two to two 309 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: thousand and eight that ask three questions, how happy are you? 310 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: How much money do you make? Do you think you 311 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: make more or less money than other Americans? The analysis 312 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: found that people who tended to think they made less 313 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 1: money than others also tended to be unhappier, no matter 314 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 1: how much money they actually made. In general, making more 315 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: money than your friends and neighbors will make you happier, 316 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: and making less will make you unhappier. There is good news, though, 317 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: which is what happens when you think about why money 318 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: brings us happiness. 319 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 2: When I look at why is there this positive relationship 320 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 2: between money and happiness, and what I find is that 321 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: about eighty percent of that relationship, even for that emotional component, 322 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: can be explained by the fact that as people earn 323 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: more money, they feel more in control of their lives. 324 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: So if you have someone with a low income but 325 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 2: feels very in control of their life, they psychologically look 326 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 2: a lot like a very well off. 327 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,520 Speaker 1: Person Whoah, it comes down to control and not having 328 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 1: to worry about the future. 329 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 2: I haven't necessarily looked at it in terms of like 330 00:18:52,359 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: the future in quotes, but yeah, the more money you have, 331 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,440 Speaker 2: the more you tend to feel in control of your life, 332 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: and that seems to be uniquely able to explain this relationship. 333 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: In other words, doctor Killingsworth also asks people, how in 334 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: control of your life do you feel? And the people 335 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 1: who said they felt more in control of their lives 336 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 1: tended to be the people who had more money, and 337 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: they also tended to be the people who were happier, 338 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: which tells you that most of the value of having 339 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: money is just having more control of your life. 340 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 2: So I looked at lots of other factors as well, 341 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: and it's kind of fueling in control of your life. 342 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 2: That's the biggest one. Another one is the simply the 343 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 2: more money you earn, the less likely you are to 344 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: have trouble paying bills. So when I look at the 345 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: lowest income people in my study, almost half of them say, yeah, 346 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 2: I had trouble paying a bill in the last two weeks, 347 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: Whereas if you go to the people with very high incomes, 348 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 2: it's like seven percent of them. So you get a 349 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 2: seven x difference in the likelihood that bills are a 350 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 2: source of uncertainty and riskiness for you. So those two 351 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: things together are at least within the set of things 352 00:19:57,520 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: that I measured, those were kind of the biggest expl 353 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: natory factors. 354 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: Now, this is probably not surprising to you. If you 355 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:07,200 Speaker 1: have money, you don't have to worry as much about 356 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: what's going to happen to you or how are you 357 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: going to pay your bills. But the point doctor Killingesporre 358 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: says is that once you know that's the real reason 359 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 1: money affects your happiness, you can work around it. 360 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 2: However, and I think this is part of what is 361 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 2: a little bit empowering. While if you look at this 362 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: relationship between money and happiness, about eighty percent of that 363 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 2: can be explained by people who earn more money feel 364 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 2: more in control of their lives, but the flip side 365 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 2: of that is that only about twenty percent of how 366 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: in control of you feel of your life is due 367 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 2: to money. 368 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:41,360 Speaker 1: What what do you mean? What do you mean? 369 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: What I think that points to is the fact that, well, 370 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 2: what money brings us perhaps is control over our life. 371 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 2: There are ways that we can get control over our 372 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 2: life that have nothing to do with money. And so 373 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: you could kind of have a workaround for money itself 374 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: by finding ways to kind of take control of your life, 375 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 2: like what kind of life do you want to live? 376 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 2: And how could you reorient your life to live that life? 377 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 2: And so the more you find the ways to do that, 378 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 2: perhaps suggestively, speculatively, it might be possible that you could 379 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: end up kind of getting the life of someone who's 380 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 2: richer without necessarily having to earn more money. 381 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 1: What doctor Killy Sporth is saying is that, yes, having 382 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 1: more money will make you happier. That's mostly because it 383 00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 1: gives you the feeling of being in control of your life. 384 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: So if you can figure out other ways to get 385 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: that feeling, then maybe you don't need as much money. 386 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,200 Speaker 1: All Right, when we come back, we're going to tackle 387 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 1: the last piece of the happiness puzzle, and then I'm 388 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: going to ask each of our experts if they're happy. 389 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: So stay with us, we'll be right back. Welcome back. 390 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 3: One thing that we should talk about is depression. There 391 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 3: are certainly a case of individuals with treatment resistant depression. 392 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,719 Speaker 3: And as much as we can affect the way our 393 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: brains work by how we think, there are individuals who 394 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: cannot do that or are their brains are not wired 395 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 3: in such a way that will allow them to take 396 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 3: these tools and do something with them. So that we 397 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 3: have to really step back a little bit to say 398 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: that disorders of brain circuits, like disruptions in how areas 399 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 3: like the frontal lobes or the amygdala and the hippcamp 400 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 3: is how they communicate. If those are disrupted, then it's 401 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: really difficult for you to think your way out of 402 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 3: that and to think yourself into a happy set of circumstances. Right, 403 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,159 Speaker 3: So there's a limit to which these things can be 404 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 3: very helpful and effective. But I think if you have 405 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 3: treatment resistant depression, then that's something that you have to 406 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,640 Speaker 3: go and get seen about by professional all. 407 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: Right, the lassie slip puzzle we're going to tackle here 408 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: is what does this all need? And to do that, 409 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the question of what 410 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: happiness is and whether it's what we feel in the 411 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: moment or what we feel when we take a step 412 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: back to think about how our lives are going. Because 413 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: as we learn, how you answer the question are you 414 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: happy can be different depending on when you're asked that question, 415 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: but according to our experts, that difference is not totally random. 416 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 2: One of the things that I've seen to some degree 417 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 2: is that I think happiness is simpler than we realize, 418 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: and its causes are more complex than we realize. 419 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 420 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 2: So you've hit on I think one of the key 421 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,639 Speaker 2: sort of features of all of this. There's one element 422 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: of this that's really how good or bad our moments are, 423 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: But then there are also these other more kind of 424 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 2: slower moving elements, like is your life fulfilling and meaningful 425 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 2: and satisfying? Overall? When I look across all the different 426 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 2: things that matter, for happiness. It turns out pretty similar 427 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 2: things matter for all the different flavors. You know, a 428 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: fulfilling life overall is also tends to be produced by 429 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 2: the kinds of things. Things that you know, drive good 430 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 2: experiences in the moment, and I think the reality to 431 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 2: some extent is that both of those things are going 432 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 2: to come together. Those stable factors that we think of 433 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 2: as affecting things like how satisfied you are, tend to 434 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 2: affect your moment, and having good experiences in the moment 435 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: that you have over and over again also produce kind 436 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 2: of a good life in the overall sense. 437 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 3: So when I told you that my cork is floating, 438 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 3: that's the best analogy that I can come up with, 439 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: because you can kind of imagine your emotional life as 440 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,719 Speaker 3: a quirk bobbing on the ocean, and every wave that 441 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 3: lifts that cork, maybe it's a moment of joy or pleasure. 442 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: It's like a little burst of dopamine, and then the 443 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 3: troughs of disappointment or sadness could reflect some kind of 444 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 3: dip in the brain's reward circuitry. 445 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:52,480 Speaker 1: Okay, what doctor Killing's Worth and doctor Gotwyn are saying 446 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: is that there's a certain simplicity about the experience of happiness. 447 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,240 Speaker 1: If you're having a lot of good moments in your life, 448 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: your brain is wired to recognize that and tell you, hey, 449 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: things are going well, keep it up, and you feel happy. 450 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: Or if you're having a lot of bad moments, your 451 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: brain is wired to tell you, Hmmm, something's not right 452 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:17,120 Speaker 1: here and you feel unhappy. And I think this tells 453 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: you two things about happiness. The first is that variations 454 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: in how happy you feel are inevitable. 455 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 2: So even people that are pretty happy will have some 456 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 2: really miserable moments, and even people that are pretty unhappy, 457 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 2: you'll have some really great moments, like how can someone 458 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 2: who's so unfulfilled have such a happy moment? Or if 459 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 2: I'm supposedly living such a great life, why am I 460 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 2: having this moment where I feel so terrible? But I 461 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: think that's just kind of a feature of being human, 462 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 2: is that we have this dynamic element of happiness that 463 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 2: really does change. 464 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 1: Into the words nobody has a perfect life. We all 465 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: have our ups and downs. And the second thing I 466 00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: think all of this tells is is that if there 467 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: is something wanted to change about your life and your happiness, 468 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,119 Speaker 1: a good place to start is to pay attention to 469 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: those day to day moments. Happier people do have ups 470 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: and downs, but according to doctor Killingsworth's data, those ups 471 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: and downs are better quality. So you can look at 472 00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 1: your own moments and see what's costing them and potentially 473 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,600 Speaker 1: change them, or if you can't change them, maybe you 474 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 1: can work around them. Because as we've learned in these episodes, 475 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: there are a lot of things that affect your happiness, 476 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: and I. 477 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 2: Think that's emblematic of kind of a general tactic and 478 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: strategy for thinking about happiness is if there's some part 479 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: of it that you're kind of blocked on, Like I 480 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 2: want to have the happiness that that thing would give me, 481 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: but maybe that's a hard thing for me to change. 482 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,719 Speaker 2: I'm in a job that has some future, but for 483 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,639 Speaker 2: whatever reason, I can't really change that job. Or you know, 484 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: I earn this amount of money and you know I'm 485 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 2: a teacher. There's just no way I'm going to start 486 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 2: earning six hundred thousand dollars a year. Or I have 487 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: a challenging relationship with this family member. I'm not going 488 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 2: to stop interacting with them. It's important enough for me 489 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 2: to sustain that. Can we find workarounds for the things 490 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 2: that we maybe can't change by understanding the kinds of 491 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 2: happiness and the ways that they might bring us happiness 492 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 2: if they were different. I see, you know, how can 493 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 2: we be the river flowing around the rock? 494 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: I see? I see sometimes in our lives we find 495 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: that there's this lever that we just can't pull, and so, 496 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: understanding more about the whole picture, let's just work around 497 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: that by pulling other levers. 498 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, when I was saying earlier that measuring happiness is 499 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,640 Speaker 2: simpler than we think, but the causes of happiness are 500 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 2: more complicated than we realize. There's a downside to that, 501 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: which is there's no one silverable to happiness. But the 502 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: upside is it gives us a lot of options for 503 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 2: how we pursue it. There are all of these different 504 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: levers we can pull. So if for you one of 505 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,879 Speaker 2: those levers is really sticky you can't move it, that's okay, 506 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: just find a different one. 507 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: There. Are you happy now? I mean, are you happy? 508 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: That we're coming to the end of the k So 509 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: I thought i'd end things by asking our two experts 510 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 1: if they're happy? All right, Matt, thank you so much. 511 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: Last question, are you happy. 512 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:10,719 Speaker 2: I am pretty happy. 513 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: You know. 514 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 2: Like I said, happiness is a wiggly line. So I 515 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: have moments that are amazing and moments that are challenging, 516 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 2: and lots of moments in the middle. But overall, I 517 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: love my life. I love getting to work on this problem. 518 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 2: I also get to take all the things that I 519 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: learn and try to apply them myselves. 520 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: And think your happiness changed before and after this project. 521 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 2: Definitely, I mean, I've learned a lot from it. One 522 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: of the biggest warnings for me was the very first 523 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: one that I talked about and discovered, which was this 524 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 2: relationship to mind wandering by nature. I think and spend 525 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: a lot of time thinking and in my head, and honestly, 526 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: wasn't until I both collected the data and looked at 527 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: all of the results that I started to recognize when 528 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: that was helpful and when that wasn't so helpful. 529 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: All right, that was pretty good, Dwayne. Do you feel 530 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: pretty happy about that conversation? 531 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 3: I'm content with it. 532 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: Well, well, don't get too excited there. 533 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 3: Well that's my wife saying. You know, this is what 534 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 3: I did. So I went to a restaurant my wife, 535 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 3: and it was a new restaurant that we hadn't eaten 536 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 3: at before, and at the end of it, it's like, 537 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 3: you know, what did you think? And my standard response 538 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: is I wasn't too bad. I have this sort of 539 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 3: glitch where I can't like fully invest in it. And 540 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 3: it was great. It was hash Browns and an omelet 541 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 3: and it was wonderful. But my normal response is I 542 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 3: wasn't bad. I'm sort of like a Larry David. I 543 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 3: guess pretty pretty, pretty good. 544 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: Well, I think we make a good team then, because 545 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 1: my wife tells me I'm too positive all the time. 546 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 3: Oh really, so you're you would say, wow, that was 547 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 3: the best ever. 548 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: I love everything. I love every mine of air I read. 549 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 3: Well, that's a good way to be. That's true happiness 550 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 3: if you can reach that state. 551 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: Well, I'm also a cartoonist. I think that helps. All right. 552 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,880 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. See you next time. And hey, 553 00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: if you want to join doctor Killingsworth's Study of Happiness, 554 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: just go to track your Happiness dot org. And if 555 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: you want to read the book Doctor Godwin and I Rode, 556 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: just search for Out of your Mind The Biggest Mysteries 557 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: of the Human Brain in your favorite bookstore. Thanks for 558 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: joining us, See you next time. You've been listening to 559 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Science Stuff the production of iHeartRadio, written and produced by 560 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:31,000 Speaker 1: me or Ycham, edited by Rose Seguda, executive producer Jerry Rowland, 561 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: and audio engineer and mixer Kasey Peckram. And you can 562 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: follow me on social media. Just search for PhD Comics 563 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: and the name of your favorite platform. Be sure to 564 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: subscribe to Sign Stuff on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 565 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts, and please tell your 566 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,120 Speaker 1: friends We'll be back next Wednesday with another episode.