Speaker 1: T. T.
Speaker 2: Did you see that Psychology Today article where the guy
Speaker 2: is talking about the rise of single men being lonely.
Speaker 2: He was talking about the day to day we're coming
Speaker 2: up on cuff and season. Yea, it is a lot
Speaker 2: to consider.
Speaker 3: And a lot of men were not happy about it.
Speaker 3: They took it personally, and you know, a hit dog
Speaker 3: will holler.
Speaker 2: Oh, that's taking me back to our Dialects and Accents episode.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, apparently that article is talking about very specific
Speaker 4: people because they were very mad.
Speaker 2: I think when we consider relationships, we're not just talking
Speaker 2: about romantic relationships, right. How you show up in all
Speaker 2: types of platonic familial relationships. All of those things are
Speaker 2: important to consider, and so we had to bring it
Speaker 2: straight to the lab.
Speaker 4: I'm T T and I'm Zakiah and from Spotify.
Speaker 5: This is Dope Labs.
Speaker 3: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that makes it
Speaker 3: hardcore science, pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.
Speaker 2: And this week we're talking all about that healthy dose.
Speaker 2: Make sure you get the right prescription. Specifically, we're looking
Speaker 2: at attachment styles, attachment theory, how you make friends, how
Speaker 2: to handle conflict, all of it.
Speaker 4: Let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 2: What do we know?
Speaker 4: TT?
Speaker 3: Well, I think one thing that we know personally is
Speaker 3: that friendship is very special and also very important.
Speaker 2: Yes, friendships can be these really deep intimate connections, and
Speaker 2: we talked about this many moons ago in LAP twenty six.
Speaker 3: I feel like another thing that we know, especially at
Speaker 3: this big age, is that it's hard to make new friends,
Speaker 3: Like I don't know the last time I made a
Speaker 3: new friend. It's not as easy as it was when
Speaker 3: we were kids on the playground, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: Yes, or even in college. And I think because of that,
Speaker 2: we also know that losing a friendship can be really rough.
Speaker 4: M hm Okay, So what do we want to know?
Speaker 2: You know, I think we've seen a lot about relationships
Speaker 2: and how they've changed, especially over the pandemic. But we
Speaker 2: want to know why friendship is so important? Why is
Speaker 2: it important to us? Why do we have these big
Speaker 2: feelings around friendship?
Speaker 3: I think I want to know more about the difference
Speaker 3: between friendship and romance, So a platonic friendship and non
Speaker 3: platonic and what are the differences, what are the strengths
Speaker 3: and weaknesses of either of them?
Speaker 2: And I think the other thing I want to understand
Speaker 2: is how people are approaching friendships in different ways. And
Speaker 2: you know, I think we call those attachment styles. But
Speaker 2: I've seen it in relationships. But what does it mean
Speaker 2: in friendships?
Speaker 3: That's a really good question, and so piggybacking off of that.
Speaker 3: When we know what our attachment styles are, Conflict is
Speaker 3: inevitable in any relationship. But how should we be handling
Speaker 3: conflict with our friends?
Speaker 2: Yes, and if the conflict means the friendship passed to end,
Speaker 2: how do we make new friends? We know it's hard,
Speaker 2: but how do we jump over that hurdle and make
Speaker 2: some new No new friends?
Speaker 4: No new friends? No new friends? No no, Now.
Speaker 2: Let's jump into the dissection.
Speaker 4: Our guest for today's lab is doctor m Rissa G. Franco.
Speaker 1: My name is doctor Borissa G. Franco.
Speaker 6: I am a professor, a speaker, psychologist, and author of
Speaker 6: the book Platonic, How the Science of Attachment can help
Speaker 6: You Make and Keep Friends.
Speaker 3: Not only is doctor Franco a psychologist, but she's also
Speaker 3: a friendship expert. She's traveled the world studying the science
Speaker 3: behind friendship.
Speaker 2: Now you may remember we've had doctor Franco on Dope
Speaker 2: Labs before we learned a lot from her in Lab
Speaker 2: twenty six, and she didn't have a book then, so
Speaker 2: we can't wait to get into the information that's in
Speaker 2: this text. Yes, we know how important friendship is for
Speaker 2: me and TT, but what does science tell us about friendship?
Speaker 6: We know from the science set just like we need food,
Speaker 6: we need water, we need air, we need social connection
Speaker 6: to be functioning at our best, which is why research
Speaker 6: actually finds that the impact of loneliness is a kind
Speaker 6: to smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. It's actually linked to
Speaker 6: how long you live, your level of connection even more
Speaker 6: so than you're die, and the amount.
Speaker 1: That you exercise.
Speaker 3: So if this doesn't underscore how important friendship is in
Speaker 3: combating loneliness, I don't know what will fifteen cigarettes a day,
Speaker 3: how many cigarettes are in a pack.
Speaker 6: I also think friendship specifically plays a huge role in
Speaker 6: our identities. When we hang out with our friends, we
Speaker 6: learn different ways of being in the world, and we
Speaker 6: begin to incorporate that into who we are as people.
Speaker 3: A lot of people put a lot of energy into
Speaker 3: dating or finding their life love partners, but doctor Franco
Speaker 3: is right, friendships are also really really important to our identities.
Speaker 2: And doctor Franco says that people often pit romance and
Speaker 2: friendship against each other when they're actually a lot more
Speaker 2: connected than we might think.
Speaker 6: Friendship is part of what having a healthy romantic relationship
Speaker 6: looks like. For example, there are studies that find that
Speaker 6: when you're going through conflict with your partner, you're gonna
Speaker 6: have dysregulated stress hormone release, but not if you have
Speaker 6: close friends. And so friendship in the ways that it
Speaker 6: stabilizes us and grounds us also primes us to experience
Speaker 6: healthier relationships and all other aspects of our lives.
Speaker 2: Friendships feel like those before you could really swim. They
Speaker 2: would give you those little things to go on your
Speaker 2: arms to keep you from drowning. Uh huh, floaties when
Speaker 2: you jump into a sea of conflict. Friendship is like
Speaker 2: the floaties to be like, hey.
Speaker 4: We have you bellied.
Speaker 2: We're not gonna let you drown. Friends, that's perfect, and
Speaker 2: this friendship has been that for me. Baby.
Speaker 3: Okay, we more than floaties. Now, we a whole scuba suit.
Speaker 3: We come with oxygen.
Speaker 2: Okay, go down there if you want.
Speaker 3: We've got even when you're down in the depths, you
Speaker 3: still got it, we ask doctor Franco to break down
Speaker 3: the difference between romantic and platonic relationships.
Speaker 6: The origin of platonic comes from Plato the philosopher, and
Speaker 6: he talked about friendship at a time when it really
Speaker 6: wasn't seen on a hierarchy like it is today. And
Speaker 6: in fact, they talk about a philosopher in the book
Speaker 6: who has this quote around friendship being so beautiful because
Speaker 6: we don't need sex to keep us together. We're just
Speaker 6: in it because of each other's characters. And even if
Speaker 6: we don't have this formal ceremonity to hold it together,
Speaker 6: we're still in this relationship and in that way, it's
Speaker 6: divine and its own right.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, you know, I believe in the ability
Speaker 2: to go. I think if every day you get to
Speaker 2: wake up and choose like, yes, I still want to
Speaker 2: engage with this person, it must be real.
Speaker 4: Ye, Okay.
Speaker 3: In Doctor Franco's book, she has this thing that she
Speaker 3: calls a shovel friendship, and it's a person who is
Speaker 3: your friend that would literally bury the body should you
Speaker 3: show up. And I told her, Zakia is absolutely my
Speaker 3: shovel friend.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing, right, Somebody that is willing to
Speaker 2: do that for you has to love you. Doctor Franko
Speaker 2: tells us that people compartmentalize platonic and romantic relationships too much,
Speaker 2: and that the same thing that makes romance successful also
Speaker 2: creates successful friendships. A.
Speaker 6: Rout Ad and I go as far as to argue
Speaker 6: that actually romance is part of friendship, right, like those
Speaker 6: feelings like you're idealizing someone, you want to spend all
Speaker 6: your time with them, your territorial of them. People often
Speaker 6: feel that in friends, particularly with best friendships, and that's
Speaker 6: separate from sexual interest.
Speaker 3: I love this point, and doctor Franco talks about this
Speaker 3: in her book with some very specific stories throughout history.
Speaker 3: One of our favorites that she shared was about President
Speaker 3: Abraham Lincoln and his close friend Joshua Speed. They were
Speaker 3: so close, these two men, they shared a bed, they
Speaker 3: were love letters to each other back then.
Speaker 4: That was all considered normal.
Speaker 6: Romance has actually been part of friendship, even more so
Speaker 6: than marriage throughout history, because we used to get married
Speaker 6: to people because we wanted to pull resources, we wanted
Speaker 6: to be affiliated with their family. It was a practical endeavor,
Speaker 6: and the sexes were considered so distinct, so the idea
Speaker 6: was you can't really connect with someone who's a different
Speaker 6: gender as you. Where you find that deep romance, those
Speaker 6: people that really get you, those people you feel passionate about,
Speaker 6: is through your friends and so Abe and Joshua speed
Speaker 6: story and historians still argue over whether this was sexual,
Speaker 6: But I frame it in the larger context of the
Speaker 6: time that their interaction was normal. Friends would carve their
Speaker 6: names into trees, friends would even go on the honeymoons
Speaker 6: of people that got married. Romance as being a part
Speaker 6: of friendship was all normal, and we've only stigmatized it
Speaker 6: more or seen it as separate from friendship within the
Speaker 6: past one hundred.
Speaker 1: And fifty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I told t T that I would be on
Speaker 2: her honeymoon before I realized it was going to be hiking.
Speaker 2: Then I was out.
Speaker 3: Then no one came. Shoot, my goodness. Everybody bailed out.
Speaker 3: What happened? Whatving?
Speaker 4: But I was at the wedding. Yes, you were one
Speaker 4: of my bridesmaids. You have to be there. It was
Speaker 4: no way I was doing it without you.
Speaker 2: The stigmas be damned. I wasn't worried about those stigmas. Okay,
Speaker 2: no new day new age and I'm feeling good.
Speaker 3: But we wanted to know more about like when all
Speaker 3: of this happened, When did that shift with friendship occur?
Speaker 3: And doctor Franco talks about how industrialization actually impacted our
Speaker 3: approach to friendship.
Speaker 6: Before eighteen sixty seven, our sexual orientation it wasn't an identity.
Speaker 6: It was just forbidden to have sex with someone of
Speaker 6: the same sex. It wasn't forbidden to be gay, and
Speaker 6: all these sort of consolation of behaviors that we associate
Speaker 6: with being gay, like if you hold a friend's hand,
Speaker 6: you're not having sex with them, so that's not stigmatized.
Speaker 6: Or you write them a love letter, you're not having
Speaker 6: sex with them, so that wasn't stigmatized at the time.
Speaker 6: And then what started to happen is at that time,
Speaker 6: industrialization was happening. People were moving into cities, things are
Speaker 6: more anonymous, There started to be more same gender relationships.
Speaker 6: There is a push for psychiatrists, specifically Sigmund Fred another
Speaker 6: guy named Richard Vonkraft Ebbing, where they sort of created
Speaker 6: this theory around same sex love. They created almost this
Speaker 6: concept of sexual orientation as a larger identity because they
Speaker 6: wanted to say that it was a disorder, So they
Speaker 6: created this identity to then push this agenda of something
Speaker 6: went wrong in your childhood that made you attracted to
Speaker 6: be with someone of the same gender.
Speaker 3: So what Freud was trying to do was intellectualize homophobia
Speaker 3: by saying that homosexuality was some sort of perversion, and
Speaker 3: that was to reinforce his and society's views of homosexuality.
Speaker 4: So Freud was just a piece in the overall puzzle that.
Speaker 3: Creates this society that is steeped in homophobia and affecting
Speaker 3: same sex platonic relationships.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of this has to do
Speaker 2: with the gendering of friendship. It was normal before for
Speaker 2: men to have friends and be you know, the homies,
Speaker 2: the same way we see besties always characterized as women
Speaker 2: in the media. That was the same thing we were
Speaker 2: seeing with men. It wasn't until over time we saw
Speaker 2: friendship being characterized as feminine and femininity being tied to homosexuality,
Speaker 2: and homosexuality being seen as negative that men felt to
Speaker 2: perform heterosexuality, that they had to distance themselves from friendship
Speaker 2: which felt feminine to them, and it becomes stigmatized along
Speaker 2: with a lot of behaviors that were previously considered platonic.
Speaker 3: Remember when we started saying, well, not we, But when
Speaker 3: folks started saying romance, romance when it was just two
Speaker 3: men that were friends, Yeah, what are we doing here?
Speaker 4: The homophobia is just peaku.
Speaker 6: All of these arguably romantic behaviors that were so normal
Speaker 6: to friendship because of homophobia really became a lot less normal.
Speaker 6: And even now, I think there's this concept in the
Speaker 6: research called homo hysteria, which is fear of being perceived
Speaker 6: as gay, and I think that phenomenon in particular really
Speaker 6: affects straight men's ability to connect with each other. And
Speaker 6: there's a study that the more homophobic a man is,
Speaker 6: the less his friendships are because of the way we
Speaker 6: conflate any sort of intimacy, natural normal intimacy between men,
Speaker 6: we conflate it with sexual interest.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: We need to be talking about this because it's not
Speaker 2: just in the research.
Speaker 4: I'm seeing it.
Speaker 3: I'm seeing it playing out on Instagram and Twitter and
Speaker 3: the tiktoks daily daily.
Speaker 2: Honey, If this is affecting your friendships, and we are
Speaker 2: saying friendships are a key part of your romantic relationships,
Speaker 2: it's also affecting your romantic relationships too.
Speaker 3: Right, Because everything that you're supposed to be getting from
Speaker 3: your friends, you are trying to get from your romantic partner.
Speaker 3: With your romantic partner will ten times out of ten not.
Speaker 4: Be able to fulfill.
Speaker 3: So you really just out here in a relationship and
Speaker 3: still lonely.
Speaker 2: Fifteen cigarettes a day. I think this brings us right
Speaker 2: back to what we were saying about friendship. This is
Speaker 2: just another type of relationship. And if you haven't practiced
Speaker 2: friendship with your platonic friends, you're supposed to automatically know
Speaker 2: how to do it in a relationship.
Speaker 4: I don't think that's how that works, y'all. Not Alan
Speaker 4: overson out here.
Speaker 3: You need you need to practice practice. Yes, we're talking
Speaker 3: about practice.
Speaker 2: And so when we think about how do people show
Speaker 2: up in friendships right now, a lot of this is
Speaker 2: related to attachment theory and attachment styles, how people show
Speaker 2: up and how this affects their connection with others.
Speaker 6: So the idea is who we are affects how we connect,
Speaker 6: and how we've connected affects who we are our personality,
Speaker 6: our trust of other people, our openness, our friendliness. That's
Speaker 6: fundamentally shaped by whether we've connected in the past or
Speaker 6: been heard in the past. That's really affected who we are.
Speaker 3: In her book, Doctor Franco talks about six traits that
Speaker 3: make it more likely for you to connect with people
Speaker 3: their initiative, vulnerability, authenticity, productive, anger, affection, and generosity.
Speaker 6: You would have these traits naturally if you didn't go
Speaker 6: through some previous baggage trauma, big t, small tea charmer.
Speaker 6: But if you didn't go through these wounds, you would
Speaker 6: all have these traits. We're all inherently pro social and
Speaker 6: social creatures.
Speaker 2: That's right. Most primates that includes us are working together
Speaker 2: in a social order to benefit ourselves and others. Okay,
Speaker 2: And so how you're raised, your neighborhood, your economic factors,
Speaker 2: your education, all of that determines the types of connections
Speaker 2: that you make. Those early interactions kind of set that
Speaker 2: mold for how you engage as you move about the
Speaker 2: cabin of life. And so if you're operating with one
Speaker 2: set of instructions and somebody else's operating with another, it
Speaker 2: can be hard to make healthy, strong connections with those folks,
Speaker 2: or even to form connections in the first place. We
Speaker 2: begin to learn how to attach to others as babies,
Speaker 2: and those experiences continue to inform our relationships as adults.
Speaker 6: Attachment theory is basically telling us you have these early
Speaker 6: relationships with your parents. It created a template for how
Speaker 6: people will respond to you throughout life. And because social
Speaker 6: interaction is inherently very ambiguous, you don't know why someone's
Speaker 6: not responding to you. You don't know if someone's quiet
Speaker 6: because they hate you or because they're.
Speaker 1: Tired or hungry.
Speaker 6: This template tends to be what is reality for us.
Speaker 6: It tends to be what impacts our bodies, what impacts
Speaker 6: how we respond, what impacts how we behave in our friendships,
Speaker 6: more so than the truth, more so than whatever the
Speaker 6: reality actually is.
Speaker 3: We've talked about the mind body connection before in previous
Speaker 3: labs like our lab called Good Anxiety with doctor Wendy Suzuki,
Speaker 3: in Mind over Matter with doctor Susanne O'Sullivan and Art
Speaker 3: Therapy with Professor Juliet King. And our relationships with other
Speaker 3: people can affect how we feel in our bodies, depending
Speaker 3: on whether we feel safe or not, and if we're
Speaker 3: fearful or anxious, our bodies might go into fight or
Speaker 3: flight with our friends, making it hard to make decisions
Speaker 3: or have a calm conversation.
Speaker 2: So when we think about it, our life experiences yes
Speaker 2: create eight and cement what our attachment styles are going
Speaker 2: to be.
Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, our brain begins to predict.
Speaker 2: How our relationships should go, how we connect with other people,
Speaker 2: and it's all based on what we've seen before. So
Speaker 2: over time, your template of what happens in relationships becomes
Speaker 2: internalized as your attachment style, and this then predicts how
Speaker 2: we form attachment or connection in relationships with others.
Speaker 3: Doctor Franco's book focuses on three attachment styles, anxious, avoidant,
Speaker 3: and secure. The first style is anxious attachment.
Speaker 6: You think everybody is going to abandon you when it
Speaker 6: comes to relationships. You are clinging or you take things personally.
Speaker 6: You appreciate the ability to earn people's loves, so you
Speaker 6: enter in relationships with people that don't treat you right.
Speaker 6: You have trouble expressing your needs because again, you think
Speaker 6: people are going to abandon you, and you tend to
Speaker 6: develop friendships really quickly, but they can be very volatile
Speaker 6: and also end very quickly.
Speaker 4: Look to your left and to your right, do you
Speaker 4: know someone like this or is it you right?
Speaker 2: And that makes sense if you are nervous about things,
Speaker 2: you're trying to quickly get to the good part. And
Speaker 2: you don't want people to leave, so you're going to
Speaker 2: be constantly doing those things. That makes sense to me.
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco share some tips for folks with different attachment styles.
Speaker 2: Here's what she suggests. If you're anxiously attached.
Speaker 6: For anxiously attached, one thing that would really help is
Speaker 6: to assume people like you. When you're anxiously attached, you
Speaker 6: have this implicit low self esteem and you think other
Speaker 6: people don't like you. So if it's ambiguous and you
Speaker 6: don't know, just assume that people like you.
Speaker 2: The second is avoidant attachment.
Speaker 6: You tend to not have that many friends, and if
Speaker 6: you do, they don't feel like they really know you.
Speaker 6: Feels like you're at a distance. You don't ask your
Speaker 6: friends for anything. You feel very easily burdened if they
Speaker 6: ask you for something. If there's a problem in friendship,
Speaker 6: you just sort of tend to cut it off. Your
Speaker 6: template is that people can't be trusted and if I
Speaker 6: go to them for help, they will not help me.
Speaker 6: So I have to be self sufficient and that affects
Speaker 6: how avoidantly attached people interpret the world. For example, I
Speaker 6: say a study that shows that when someone does something
Speaker 6: nice for it, avoidantly attached people, they think that that
Speaker 6: person is doing it because they want something out of them,
Speaker 6: and that's the.
Speaker 1: Reality that is in their body.
Speaker 6: So when people do nice things for them, they're not
Speaker 6: even taking that in and they continue to go forth
Speaker 6: in the world like it's true that people can't be
Speaker 6: trusted even when people are showing them love all around them.
Speaker 2: This has to do with how you have formed these
Speaker 2: templates for attachment in the past or in your early
Speaker 2: stages as a child.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 3: The next tip is one that works for both anxious
Speaker 3: and avoidant attachment styles, and it's to recognize moments of
Speaker 3: safety in your relationships.
Speaker 6: When you are anxiously or avoidantly attached, you tune in
Speaker 6: so much to the negative because that's what your internal
Speaker 6: template is, and you don't notice when people are being
Speaker 6: loving towards you, or affirming you or supporting you. And
Speaker 6: so when your friend shows up for you, when your
Speaker 6: friend listens to you, when your friend reaches out to you,
Speaker 6: just to check in, pause and savor that in your body.
Speaker 6: What does that feel like for you internally?
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco cites the work of doctor Rick Hansen, another psychologist,
Speaker 2: about internalizing moments of safety and how that can actually
Speaker 2: change your brain structure. For avoidantly attached people, doctor Franco
Speaker 2: suggests asking yourself if there's something that someone has done
Speaker 2: to suggest that they're untrustworthy, and if.
Speaker 6: You cannot identify something that they've done, recognize that your
Speaker 6: assumption that you can't trust them is coming from your
Speaker 6: history rather than the realities of the situation, and ask yourself,
Speaker 6: how would I go about this relationship differently if I
Speaker 6: felt like I could trust that.
Speaker 1: Person and experiment.
Speaker 6: Experimenting is really important for changing our attachment styles, because
Speaker 6: attachment sells like an algorithm. If A, then B. If
Speaker 6: I'm vulnerable, people will reject me. If I reach out,
Speaker 6: people won't want to hear from me. And when we
Speaker 6: experiment and we do the thing that makes us scared
Speaker 6: and there's a different outcome, and we savor that outcome,
Speaker 6: we internalize that outcome, we feel the impact in our bodies.
Speaker 6: That's the work of changing our internal algorithm.
Speaker 2: And so when doctor Franco mentions changing our internal algorithm,
Speaker 2: it's not changing our attachment style, but it's changing how
Speaker 2: we operate, how we move.
Speaker 3: You know, knowing your attachment style is just knowing yourself
Speaker 3: a little bit better. I feel like I fall more
Speaker 3: in the avoidant attachment style, and with that knowledge, I
Speaker 3: can be a better friend to my really good friends
Speaker 3: because I can say I don't want my really good
Speaker 3: friends to feel like I don't want to be around
Speaker 3: them or like I don't value them. So now that
Speaker 3: I know this about myself and what my knee jerk
Speaker 3: reactions might be, I can do a little course correction
Speaker 3: with the people I love. And that brings us to
Speaker 3: the third style of attachment, and it's called secure attachment.
Speaker 6: And then you have securely attached people who are comfortable
Speaker 6: giving and receiving affection, who tend to initiate more friendships,
Speaker 6: have more enduring friendships, be better at working through conflict
Speaker 6: in friendships, make their friends feel safer. And their biggest
Speaker 6: assumption is they assume people like them at all stages
Speaker 6: of friendship, and that helps them initiate new friendships, That
Speaker 6: helps them work through conflicted ways where it doesn't get
Speaker 6: into fight or flights, that helps them rekindle old friendships.
Speaker 6: They just have this sort of endless optimism and perspective
Speaker 6: taking where they're thinking about their friends' needs and their
Speaker 6: own and balancing the.
Speaker 2: Two well that sounds nice.
Speaker 3: Yes, I know someone just like this, the friendliest friend
Speaker 3: of all friends.
Speaker 5: I'll let y'all guess.
Speaker 2: You know TC. When I consider this, I don't think
Speaker 2: any one attachment style is better than the other.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we're tempted to say, you know, secure
Speaker 3: attachment is the superior attachment.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just how much course correction might you
Speaker 2: have to do for other people to understand what's going
Speaker 2: on you to get out of your own way, even right,
Speaker 2: because it doesn't change the interactions that we're all having.
Speaker 2: It's just how we're coding them as they come in, Like,
Speaker 2: what's my algorithm saying this interaction we're having means?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: So like if someone with security attachment walked into a
Speaker 3: room full of people, they might say, oh, look at
Speaker 3: all these potential friends, or look at all of these
Speaker 3: friends that I'm about to have. And someone with avoiding
Speaker 3: or anxious attachment might walk into that same room and say, mmm,
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. But if you know those things about yourself,
Speaker 3: you might say, I'm walking into this room, I'm unsure
Speaker 3: of all these people. I don't trust them, but maybe
Speaker 3: I'll open myself up. The first person that walks up
Speaker 3: to me and says hello, maybe i'll, you know, continue
Speaker 3: a conversation with them rather than run away like I
Speaker 3: would do. People can work towards being securely attached, but
Speaker 3: sometimes it's also a sign of privilege. That means that
Speaker 3: you have experienced a better childhood environment than a lot
Speaker 3: of other people. It's easier for you to regulate your emotions.
Speaker 3: Oprah has this really good book with Bruce Perry where
Speaker 3: he talks about regulation as a privilege. It means that
Speaker 3: you haven't been through traumas and also maybe systemic traumas too,
Speaker 3: like you know, racism, sexism, hobophobia, all these things could
Speaker 3: also contribute.
Speaker 2: And so if you are securely attached, what should you do.
Speaker 6: In recognizing the privilege of your attachment. I think you,
Speaker 6: as the secure person can do things that other people
Speaker 6: might not be able to do, like be regulated in conflict,
Speaker 6: bring up conflict and issues with your friend and de
Speaker 6: escalating that conflict, keeping things really fair, being there for
Speaker 6: your friends when they are vulnerable, and making them feel
Speaker 6: validated and love. Like you have all of these superpowers,
Speaker 6: and the more that you use them, the more security
Speaker 6: you're going to give to other people. You're going to
Speaker 6: heal a lot of people with the ways that you
Speaker 6: show up in the world.
Speaker 2: What doctor Franklin is saying is so important. There have
Speaker 2: been plenty of times where this friendship has been healing
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 4: You know, same, same, Absolutely.
Speaker 2: It becomes a positive cycle, right because if you are
Speaker 2: affirmed and healed here, you know, it fuels you up
Speaker 2: and you can go out into the world and spread
Speaker 2: a little bit more love.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's like pay it forward or like a ripple effect.
Speaker 4: Mm hm. They say hurt people, hurt people, but healed
Speaker 4: people heal people.
Speaker 2: You're gonna start making bumper stickers.
Speaker 3: I can't take credit for this stuff. I'm sure I
Speaker 3: heard it on TikTok. All right, let's take a break
Speaker 3: and when we come back, we'll get into how to
Speaker 3: address conflict with friends, how vulnerability can make our connections stronger,
Speaker 3: and how to make new friends.
Speaker 2: We're back and next week we're talking all about the
Speaker 2: economy with doctor Vanessa Perry. She's going to help us
Speaker 2: understand inflation, the recession, the FED, the interest rate changes,
Speaker 2: all the things that you need to know to be
Speaker 2: able to navigate the murky waters of what is the
Speaker 2: US economy.
Speaker 4: Okay, let's get back to the lab.
Speaker 3: We've been talking to doctor Marissa Franco about the importance
Speaker 3: of friendship attachment theory and how our attachment styles affect
Speaker 3: our relationships, and.
Speaker 2: We really wanted to learn more about conflict in friendships too.
Speaker 2: It's normalized to have fights with your significant other or
Speaker 2: someone that you're dating, but it can feel kind of
Speaker 2: awkward to have conflict with a friend. Sometimes it seems
Speaker 2: easier to just end the whole friendship.
Speaker 4: That's usually my style.
Speaker 3: I'm always just like, oh, you want to auga, I
Speaker 3: can't argue with you, ha ha ha.
Speaker 2: Even if you don't want to argue, TT is gonna
Speaker 2: still take that route. Even if you don't argue.
Speaker 3: If I even get a whiff of an argument, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I'm out.
Speaker 4: That actually happened to me and you and.
Speaker 2: We talked about it before. And if you haven't heard it,
Speaker 2: go back and listen to Lab twenty six, which is
Speaker 2: called what about your Friends.
Speaker 3: Yes, I tried to stop being friends with Zekiah and
Speaker 3: she wouldn't let me, thankfully. Thankfully, Doctor Franco said this
Speaker 3: normal for all kinds of intimate relationships to have conflicts,
Speaker 3: and that includes friendships and In her book, she talks
Speaker 3: about how she learned to get over her fear of
Speaker 3: conflict in friendships.
Speaker 6: I felt like, if there's a problem in friendship, it's
Speaker 6: my job to get over it. That's how I'm a
Speaker 6: good friend until I could it anymore.
Speaker 1: And it's one of my best friends.
Speaker 6: We got into an argument, little things like she got
Speaker 6: mad at me when we say django, but it started
Speaker 6: to accumulate and I'm like, Okay, I think it's my
Speaker 6: job to get over it, but I'm not.
Speaker 1: And now I'm withdrawing.
Speaker 6: So maybe this whole me trying to solve this problem
Speaker 6: on my own is it really working? And I came
Speaker 6: across the study that was like open and pass conflict
Speaker 6: contributes to more intimacy.
Speaker 1: Guys, Like, what.
Speaker 6: What conflict could benefit our friendships? It's not just conflict,
Speaker 6: it's how you do it. It's how you express your anger.
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco says that authenticity is key when you're navigating
Speaker 2: conflict with your friends.
Speaker 1: We hear the word a lot.
Speaker 6: It's so hard to pin down and how I define
Speaker 6: it is who we are when we're not hijacked by
Speaker 6: our defense mechanisms. So when we're in fight or flight,
Speaker 6: we're hijacked by our defense mechanisms because those are protecting
Speaker 6: a deeper and more vulnerable feeling a fear of hurt.
Speaker 6: And when we're not hijacked by these defense mechanisms, instead
Speaker 6: of me telling you you suck in this way, you're
Speaker 6: an awful friend, I'm going to talk shit about you
Speaker 6: now to my other friends.
Speaker 1: All of that is my.
Speaker 6: Hurt being expressed in these inauthentic ways. And so if
Speaker 6: I can instead say, actually, I was just really hurt
Speaker 6: and I felt really disappointed and I felt kind of
Speaker 6: down right, I can stay with that level of vulnerability
Speaker 6: instead of using these defense mechanisms to make me less
Speaker 6: vulnerable but also to harden my friendships.
Speaker 3: Authentic vulnerability is a lot harder to practice than it sounds,
Speaker 3: because what comes naturally to us is our defense mechanisms,
Speaker 3: and those kick in automatically.
Speaker 6: We know that's happening because we become reactive. We feel
Speaker 6: like the way respond has to be urgent in the moment.
Speaker 6: Right now, it almost feels impulsive when we're communicating in
Speaker 6: that way that's not authentic. And so if we can
Speaker 6: get to that more authentic place, that's what the conflict
Speaker 6: that's healing. Looks like there's this psychoadalyst's Virginia Boulner, and
Speaker 6: she talks about flaccid safety versus dynamic safety. Flaccid safety,
Speaker 6: we just pretend the problems aren't happening, and we are
Speaker 6: comforted by our game of pretend. Dynamic safety. We rupture,
Speaker 6: we repair. We know that when problems come up, we
Speaker 6: can repair, and we experience a deeper level of intimacy.
Speaker 2: Yes, I love dynamic safety, we know, but no, it's important,
Speaker 2: like I wish everybody to have a friend in their
Speaker 2: friend group that is like that, because when you create
Speaker 2: spaces for your friends to feel like they can be vulnerable.
Speaker 3: Doctor Franco's absolutely right. It deepens the friendship. It makes
Speaker 3: you feel more connected, it makes you feel heard, it
Speaker 3: makes you feel seen and in a world where nobody's
Speaker 3: looking and seeing anybody or listening to anyone, I hope
Speaker 3: you can feel like that.
Speaker 4: With your close friends.
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, our bodies, even when you think
Speaker 2: about how we get strong when we exercise tears in
Speaker 2: the muscles, you know our body has systems for physical
Speaker 2: rupture and repair. And so it's really interesting and exciting
Speaker 2: to me because you know, I love all things about
Speaker 2: the body that we can do this emotionally as well.
Speaker 3: Yes, So if we're looking to deepen a friendship, how
Speaker 3: do we actually work on being more vulnerable with our friends.
Speaker 6: I used to very much see vulnerability as a burden
Speaker 6: to people. And my mom she never cried until her
Speaker 6: father died. That was the first time I saw her cry.
Speaker 6: So was it modeled for me?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 6: I think as black women, there's historical reasons why we
Speaker 6: maybe don't feel as safe being volterable. And I thought
Speaker 6: everybody wanted to see me as perfect and polished, so
Speaker 6: I tried not to be votable.
Speaker 2: That's very real, but also very hard.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really tough for you know, women of color,
Speaker 3: people in marginalized communities to show that level of vulnerability.
Speaker 3: I think for black women specifically the whole, Like black
Speaker 3: women are super hard and super tough and they don't
Speaker 3: feel pain type of thing. It really prevents us from
Speaker 3: being able to experience these vulnerable moments because people don't
Speaker 3: expect it from us and don't give us the space
Speaker 3: to do it right.
Speaker 2: Leave me out of the strong black woman trope. I
Speaker 2: have weak ankles and weak risks.
Speaker 6: Part of being human is having to be vulnerable. I'm
Speaker 6: sorry to break it to you. I've had to break
Speaker 6: it to myself. It really hit home to me when
Speaker 6: I interviewed this expert on secrets, Michel Slepian. He had
Speaker 6: this study where he looked at who's really good at
Speaker 6: holding the weight of their secrets? Is there something inhering
Speaker 6: about them? Were they very self sufficient or independent? But
Speaker 6: he found that the people that were best at navigating
Speaker 6: the weight of their secrets had actually told someone their
Speaker 6: secrets and that person received it positively. And I asked him,
Speaker 6: what is the number one thing you would suggest that
Speaker 6: we do with our secrets so they don't feel oppressive
Speaker 6: to us, And he said, tell someone, tell someone about
Speaker 6: your secrets. We become strong through sharing who we are
Speaker 6: with someone who loves and validates us, and we internalize
Speaker 6: that love and that regard into our hearts and to
Speaker 6: our core.
Speaker 2: Recently, I had a friend ask me about therapy, and
Speaker 2: you know, if anybody's asked me, I'm like, hey, I
Speaker 2: am a strong proponent of therapy at time, thinking it's
Speaker 2: very good for you to have a place where you
Speaker 2: can talk and feel like you can share secrets. And
Speaker 2: the person was asking me about how to use a therapist.
Speaker 2: She's like, well, you have all these friends and she
Speaker 2: was like, well, are there things that you would tell
Speaker 2: your therapists that you wouldn't tell your friends?
Speaker 4: And I was like, not really.
Speaker 2: I feel like my friends are like, wily, I'll be dumping,
Speaker 2: I'll be fitting all that trash and you just come
Speaker 2: and scoopid and.
Speaker 4: You put it in these little squares.
Speaker 2: You are good to me. But I was saying, sometimes
Speaker 2: because there's so much romance or loving friendships, they won't
Speaker 2: tell you that your poop is thinking. They won't tell
Speaker 2: you that it's your roses really smell like boom boom
Speaker 2: boom boom, you know, and you might need somebody to
Speaker 2: do that, and they will accept your secrets. But that
Speaker 2: can be helpful to kind of build your ability to
Speaker 2: share with someone you're paying to keep your secrets.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and doctor Franco said, it's okay to start slowly
Speaker 3: by scaffolding your vulnerability.
Speaker 6: Who in your life feels the safest start with that.
Speaker 6: Maybe it's your therapist, I don't know, if it's your mom.
Speaker 6: Talk to them first, because if they make you feel
Speaker 6: safe when they share their reaction, what that's going to
Speaker 6: do is make it feel less vulnerable when you go
Speaker 6: to the second person, who's more.
Speaker 1: Of a wild card.
Speaker 3: According to research by doctor Anna Brook, there's something called
Speaker 3: the beautiful mess effect, which makes us assume that people
Speaker 3: will judge us more for being vulnerable while dismissing the
Speaker 3: positive outcome of being seen as authentic.
Speaker 6: So remind yourself that if you think your vulnerability is
Speaker 6: going to lead to people taking advantage and there's no
Speaker 6: evidence of this, then you might be experiencing the beautiful
Speaker 6: mess effect. Remember that it doesn't have to be comfortable.
Speaker 6: You're doing this because it fulfills your larger values of
Speaker 6: taking care of yourself or connecting with people. It's get
Speaker 6: active love to yourself to be vulnerable.
Speaker 2: That's a great point. Maybe understanding that vulnerability serves a
Speaker 2: larger purpose in deepening our relationships can help us challenge
Speaker 2: ourselves to lean into it even when it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: And I think another great point is we talked about
Speaker 3: in the last episode with doctor Franco about dignifying friendships,
Speaker 3: Like if you give your friendship some dignity, being vulnerable
Speaker 3: will be part of dignifying that friendship. And something that's
Speaker 3: also important to keep in mind is your own boundaries.
Speaker 3: There's a big spectrum between healthy discomfort and feeling unsafe.
Speaker 2: We talked about this a little bit in LAP seventy five.
Speaker 2: Can you change Someone's mind? When we're talking about conflicts
Speaker 2: around prejudice or other topics that have real effect on
Speaker 2: our lives, racism, homophobia, classism, all the other isms, there
Speaker 2: are cases where you won't be able to see eye
Speaker 2: to eye and stay in relationship with that person, and
Speaker 2: you may feel unsafe with that person and have to
Speaker 2: end a friendship. And doctor Franco says that her identity
Speaker 2: as a black woman has affected how she navigates her friendships.
Speaker 6: I often hear white people, privileged people saying, well, being
Speaker 6: mature means getting over it and still being friends, And
Speaker 6: maybe that's the right choice for some people. But I
Speaker 6: think that assumption that that's for everyone can really discount
Speaker 6: how unsettling it can feel to be friends with someone
Speaker 6: who you feel doesn't humanize you as a person. I
Speaker 6: talk about in the book how I went through this
Speaker 6: experience where my friend, she's white, she called me a
Speaker 6: diversity higher, which she introduced me to all of her
Speaker 6: other friends and how it sounds like a single moment,
Speaker 6: but what I talk about in the book is that
Speaker 6: it's not a passing moment. It's a cumulative moment that
Speaker 6: is a trigger because it reminds you of every moment
Speaker 6: someone has treated you like you're less intelligent throughout your
Speaker 6: entire life, because it reflects that you are living in
Speaker 6: a larger society that devalues your intelligence. And if you
Speaker 6: think about a paper cut that's been cut at in
Speaker 6: the same place for hundreds of years, it's going to
Speaker 6: be a very deep wound.
Speaker 2: It's important that your friends that are other races or
Speaker 2: a different class see.
Speaker 4: You as equal.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I feel like we saw a lot of
Speaker 3: friendships relationships coming to a head during the Black Lives
Speaker 3: Matter movement COVID when folks were communicating pain and some
Speaker 3: of their friends, family members, loved ones, we're dismissing them,
Speaker 3: and so people were having to reckon with Wow, what
Speaker 3: do I do next?
Speaker 4: Do I keep this person in my life?
Speaker 3: Do I say no and draw a hard line and say, okay, well,
Speaker 3: this friendship is over, this relationship is over.
Speaker 4: Those are decisions that you have to.
Speaker 3: Make because when we're talking about certain issues, it's life
Speaker 3: or death. And if someone doesn't humanize you and champion
Speaker 3: your voice and hear you and see you, that ain't
Speaker 3: a friend. It don't sound like a friend to me,
Speaker 3: sounds like an enemy.
Speaker 2: And what you're talking about tt doctor Franco talks about
Speaker 2: in her book and calls it adjusted mutuality. And the
Speaker 2: adjusted part is key because if you're just having a mutuality,
Speaker 2: then that's just one to one. Everybody's view is equal.
Speaker 2: But when you have friends that are from different groups,
Speaker 2: let's say one from a privileged group run from a
Speaker 2: disadvantage group, that one to one isn't holding to the
Speaker 2: same weight. And so doctor Franco says that what we
Speaker 2: need is the more privileged person to do a little
Speaker 2: bit more work to understand the disadvantaged person's perspective, and
Speaker 2: that is adjusted mutuality.
Speaker 6: And the truth is that we need this adjusted mutuality
Speaker 6: in our friendships to correct for a world in a
Speaker 6: society that is inherently non mutual, Like we're not becoming
Speaker 6: friends in a blink slate. We're becoming friends in a
Speaker 6: place where if you're from a disadvantage identity, you have
Speaker 6: to spend so much more time and energy understanding the
Speaker 6: perspective of privileged.
Speaker 3: People, and we know that privilege and identity are complex.
Speaker 3: Some things are fixed, like race, where you were born,
Speaker 3: et cetera, while other circumstances might change over time, like
Speaker 3: class education. It's important to consider the complexity of someone's
Speaker 3: whole personhood in our relationships. Doctor Franco shares three steps
Speaker 3: for building friendships with people who may have different privileges
Speaker 3: in life experience than you. Those three steps are vet, vulnerability,
Speaker 3: and voice.
Speaker 6: That is looking for people that do value your identity
Speaker 6: when you're choosing who to be friends with.
Speaker 3: Vulnerability is bringing your full self to the friendship, just
Speaker 3: like we were talking about before, which means you don't,
Speaker 3: you know, break off little pieces of yourself and only
Speaker 3: show parts of yourself to your friend.
Speaker 6: And then voice means when your friend screws up and
Speaker 6: says something hurtful, you gotta tell them. Often, if we
Speaker 6: don't have the conversation or the conflict because we're afraid
Speaker 6: the friendship's going to end, the friendship ends anyway because
Speaker 6: we withdraw because we're so RESTful and we're like, I
Speaker 6: don't want to be around this, so goodbye. And so
Speaker 6: if you actually want to continue on the friendship. You
Speaker 6: have to be able to say that was actually pretty
Speaker 6: hurtful to me, Like, what did you mean when.
Speaker 1: You said that?
Speaker 3: And I think that anybody who has friends, these are
Speaker 3: things that you know, the vulnerability and being your full
Speaker 3: self and the friendship are things that we can all
Speaker 3: continue to do because like, even if you've had a
Speaker 3: friend since you were five years old, you know that
Speaker 3: you've changed and that person has changed.
Speaker 4: Your lives have changed a lot of different ways.
Speaker 3: And so these are exercises that we have to continually
Speaker 3: do with all of the people that we care about.
Speaker 3: It's not just something that oh, we did it once
Speaker 3: and then we can forget about it. It's something that
Speaker 3: we have to put into practice and do consistently, especially
Speaker 3: when we care about folks.
Speaker 2: You know, we started the top of this episode talking
Speaker 2: about that Psychology Today article, but that's not the only
Speaker 2: place that I've seen conversation about friendship and belonging. And
Speaker 2: you know, even coming out of the pandemic, we talked
Speaker 2: about loneliness and what people experienced and how many people
Speaker 2: are saying their friendships have changed.
Speaker 3: Absolutely because they weren't able to meet up see each
Speaker 3: other in the ways that they used to prior to
Speaker 3: the pandemic when we were all having to stay at home.
Speaker 4: Yeah, friendships definitely went through.
Speaker 2: It, and once you kind of he and on it,
Speaker 2: it's hard to not see the thread of friendship running
Speaker 2: through so much of what's surround us. I was looking
Speaker 2: at Abbot Elementary and they were saying like it was
Speaker 2: an episode about work friends, whether they were real friends.
Speaker 4: Or work friends.
Speaker 2: You know, and you know me and you were out
Speaker 2: of college. Yeah, and so it becomes hard to maintain
Speaker 2: friendships and to build new ones, and to sometimes decide
Speaker 2: if you will keep the ones you have.
Speaker 3: Right, Right, Because as we are moving through our lives,
Speaker 3: things change. Who we are changes, and so there's a
Speaker 3: lot of difficult decisions that we have to make. And
Speaker 3: sometimes it's not that you've outgrown a person, but you
Speaker 3: have changed so much that maybe your lives don't overlap anymore.
Speaker 1: And I think.
Speaker 2: Because we are in this society that is moving so
Speaker 2: fast and rewards productivity and not stopping to take a beat.
Speaker 2: Along with the changes that you're having, right, you're also
Speaker 2: processing every single thing that happens to you through your
Speaker 2: own lens. And I think we've talked about this in
Speaker 2: can you change someone's mind? When we talk to Dave McRaney,
Speaker 2: you know, you're processing of what's happening to you. The
Speaker 2: same thing could be happening to somebody else and they
Speaker 2: may receive it completely differently.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: Have you ever had moments where someone is telling the
Speaker 3: story and it involves you and they're imitating you, and
Speaker 3: you're like, I wasn't yelling.
Speaker 4: They're like, yes, you were. You're like, no, I wasn't.
Speaker 2: Let me tell you yes. And I was just talking
Speaker 2: about this last night, actually it was today, because I
Speaker 2: was saying that I have these shocks most of the
Speaker 2: time with you, when we are talking, you will imitate me,
Speaker 2: And I say, have you seen those things where it
Speaker 2: says you don't think you have an accent? There are
Speaker 2: things that I say or the way I think things
Speaker 2: come across when you play that tape back that's not
Speaker 2: how I intended it a lot of the time, and
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot. One of my friends'
Speaker 2: moms who I'm always excited to talk to, she's so funny,
Speaker 2: she's so animated, and I'm always like, Hey, what's going on?
Speaker 4: How are you?
Speaker 2: And when she replies to me, she says, hello, how
Speaker 2: are you, because she said I talk like a robot
Speaker 2: and that I have no inflection. Oh no, that's how
Speaker 2: she receives the way I'm speaking to her like that.
Speaker 2: I'm not excited to talk to her, but I am.
Speaker 3: So that just underscores the point that you and doctor
Speaker 3: Franco made. Who we are and how we grew up
Speaker 3: and the things that we've experienced through our lives will
Speaker 3: dictate how we receive information from our friends, from our family,
Speaker 3: from people that we work with, to people that you're
Speaker 3: just walking by on the street. I was listening to
Speaker 3: the radio and they were talking about how there is
Speaker 3: a specific demographic, which is black men, that we're struggling
Speaker 3: at the workplace because they are less likely to make
Speaker 3: eye contact with, you know, some of their superiors. And
Speaker 3: so they were saying that that was impacting their work
Speaker 3: relationships because I guess their superiors felt like they weren't trustworthy,
Speaker 3: that it seemed like they weren't doing what they were
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing because they weren't making eye contact.
Speaker 3: But you got to think of the context of black
Speaker 3: men in America. Not too long ago, Emmett Till was
Speaker 3: killed for looking at a white woman in the eye or.
Speaker 4: Speaking to her or something whatever happened.
Speaker 3: And so you can imagine how incidences like that, and
Speaker 3: an innumerable amount of other incidences that are similar to that,
Speaker 3: would shift how black men interact with not only white women,
Speaker 3: but they're superiors at work and white men.
Speaker 2: All this stuff is all jumbled up, and we're not
Speaker 2: stopping to take the time. These brains will have you
Speaker 2: lumping people's behaviors into all kinds of categories. This determines
Speaker 2: what we like, This determines what we don't like. This
Speaker 2: determines the the type of people we decide to pursue
Speaker 2: relationships with, the people we choose to trust. Like you said,
Speaker 2: it's all in there together. And so I think when
Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to reflect and say, hey, what's
Speaker 2: my style? The only person's behavior you can control as
Speaker 2: your own baby, Okay. And so if you spend a
Speaker 2: little time saying, how do I move in the world,
Speaker 2: how do I perceive people's actions?
Speaker 4: I think this can kind of help you.
Speaker 2: And this may help you also see what might be
Speaker 2: missing or should be added or should be dialed back
Speaker 2: in some of your friendships. Absolutely, what I'm taking away
Speaker 2: is that you don't want dynamic safety.
Speaker 3: My friend is tired of my dynamic safety. You guys,
Speaker 3: I'm not tired of nothing. I want to go on
Speaker 3: record and say that I'm not tired of nothing.
Speaker 4: My friend, she understands me. She gets me. I do,
Speaker 4: and that's all I ask. All.
Speaker 3: All right, it's time for one thing and my one
Speaker 3: thing for this week. And Knda Is the kid is
Speaker 3: one thing for this week too, But she has her
Speaker 3: own thing is doctor Marissa G.
Speaker 4: Franco's book.
Speaker 3: It's called Platonic How the Science of Attachment can help
Speaker 3: You Make and Keep Friends, And it is out right now.
Speaker 3: She gave us an advanced look at it, and let
Speaker 3: me tell you, I have a rainbow of highlights and tabs.
Speaker 4: It's so good.
Speaker 3: I think there's something for everyone to learn about themselves
Speaker 3: in this book and to help them be a better friend.
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, co sign on that.
Speaker 4: What's your one thing this week? Zee?
Speaker 2: My one thing along with this book has been this newsletter.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: I love a newsletter that I've been reading by Carissa Potter,
Speaker 2: and it's called Bad at Keeping Secrets. Now we're gonna
Speaker 2: link both doctor Franco's book and this newsletter in the
Speaker 2: show notes. So that's Dope labspodcast dot com and you
Speaker 2: can just click on the show notes and it will
Speaker 2: take you there. This newsletter explores emotions, feelings, thoughts, and
Speaker 2: regulating your thoughts and I just loved it.
Speaker 4: It's a substack newsletter.
Speaker 2: So I read one post that was about regret and
Speaker 2: it was so good that I had to talk about regret.
Speaker 2: I think I came and talked to you about regret
Speaker 2: after that. I posted it on my Instagram. So good,
Speaker 2: but can't wait for people to check it out. That's
Speaker 2: it for Lab seventy eight. But guess what, we have.
Speaker 4: A poem for you.
Speaker 2: We want to know which attachment style do you identify
Speaker 2: with the most anxious, avoidant or secure? Let us know
Speaker 2: and knowing these things, does it make you think back
Speaker 2: on any interactions you've had. I want to hear drop
Speaker 2: the t in the DM. So, okay, call us at
Speaker 2: two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight
Speaker 2: and tell us what you thought, or give us an
Speaker 2: idea for another lab you think we should do this semester.
Speaker 2: We really like hearing from you, and I did get
Speaker 2: y'all's text. Okay, I'm getting to zero two five six
Speaker 2: seven seven zero two.
Speaker 3: Eight, and don't forget there's so much more for you
Speaker 3: to dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat
Speaker 3: sheet for today's lab and additional links and resources in
Speaker 3: the show notes. Plus, you can sign up for our
Speaker 3: newsletter check it out at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special
Speaker 3: thanks to today's guest expert, Doctor Marissa Franco.
Speaker 2: Find her on Twitter at doctor Marissa G.
Speaker 3: Franco, and you can find us on Twitter and Instagram
Speaker 3: at Dope Labs Podcast.
Speaker 2: Tt is on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho.
Speaker 4: And you can find Zakia at z said So.
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Ohm
Speaker 2: Media Group. Our producers are Jenny Radlett Mass and Lydia
Speaker 2: Smith of WaveRunner Studios. Our associate producer is Caro Rolando.
Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Rob Smerciak, with additional editing,
Speaker 2: mixing and sound design by Hannes Brown.
Speaker 3: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Ali
Speaker 3: zugi Era from Spotify Creative producer Miguel Contreras.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Till krat Key,
Speaker 2: and Brian Marquis, Executive producers from Mega Own Media Group
Speaker 2: rs t T Show Dia and Zakiah Wattley