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Speaker 1: T. T.

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Speaker 2: Did you see that Psychology Today article where the guy

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Speaker 2: is talking about the rise of single men being lonely.

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Speaker 2: He was talking about the day to day we're coming

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Speaker 2: up on cuff and season. Yea, it is a lot

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Speaker 2: to consider.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of men were not happy about it.

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Speaker 3: They took it personally, and you know, a hit dog

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Speaker 3: will holler.

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Speaker 2: Oh, that's taking me back to our Dialects and Accents episode.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, apparently that article is talking about very specific

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Speaker 4: people because they were very mad.

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Speaker 2: I think when we consider relationships, we're not just talking

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Speaker 2: about romantic relationships, right. How you show up in all

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Speaker 2: types of platonic familial relationships. All of those things are

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Speaker 2: important to consider, and so we had to bring it

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Speaker 2: straight to the lab.

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Speaker 4: I'm T T and I'm Zakiah and from Spotify.

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Speaker 5: This is Dope Labs.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that makes it

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Speaker 3: hardcore science, pop culture and a healthy dose of friendship.

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Speaker 2: And this week we're talking all about that healthy dose.

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Speaker 2: Make sure you get the right prescription. Specifically, we're looking

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Speaker 2: at attachment styles, attachment theory, how you make friends, how

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Speaker 2: to handle conflict, all of it.

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Speaker 4: Let's get into the recitation.

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Speaker 2: What do we know?

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Speaker 4: TT?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think one thing that we know personally is

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Speaker 3: that friendship is very special and also very important.

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Speaker 2: Yes, friendships can be these really deep intimate connections, and

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Speaker 2: we talked about this many moons ago in LAP twenty six.

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Speaker 3: I feel like another thing that we know, especially at

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Speaker 3: this big age, is that it's hard to make new friends,

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Speaker 3: Like I don't know the last time I made a

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Speaker 3: new friend. It's not as easy as it was when

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Speaker 3: we were kids on the playground, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: Yes, or even in college. And I think because of that,

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Speaker 2: we also know that losing a friendship can be really rough.

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Speaker 4: M hm Okay, So what do we want to know?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think we've seen a lot about relationships

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Speaker 2: and how they've changed, especially over the pandemic. But we

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Speaker 2: want to know why friendship is so important? Why is

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Speaker 2: it important to us? Why do we have these big

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Speaker 2: feelings around friendship?

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Speaker 3: I think I want to know more about the difference

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Speaker 3: between friendship and romance, So a platonic friendship and non

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Speaker 3: platonic and what are the differences, what are the strengths

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Speaker 3: and weaknesses of either of them?

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Speaker 2: And I think the other thing I want to understand

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Speaker 2: is how people are approaching friendships in different ways. And

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Speaker 2: you know, I think we call those attachment styles. But

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Speaker 2: I've seen it in relationships. But what does it mean

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Speaker 2: in friendships?

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Speaker 3: That's a really good question, and so piggybacking off of that.

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Speaker 3: When we know what our attachment styles are, Conflict is

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Speaker 3: inevitable in any relationship. But how should we be handling

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Speaker 3: conflict with our friends?

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Speaker 2: Yes, and if the conflict means the friendship passed to end,

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Speaker 2: how do we make new friends? We know it's hard,

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Speaker 2: but how do we jump over that hurdle and make

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Speaker 2: some new No new friends?

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Speaker 4: No new friends? No new friends? No no, Now.

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Speaker 2: Let's jump into the dissection.

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Speaker 4: Our guest for today's lab is doctor m Rissa G. Franco.

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Speaker 1: My name is doctor Borissa G. Franco.

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Speaker 6: I am a professor, a speaker, psychologist, and author of

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Speaker 6: the book Platonic, How the Science of Attachment can help

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Speaker 6: You Make and Keep Friends.

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Speaker 3: Not only is doctor Franco a psychologist, but she's also

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Speaker 3: a friendship expert. She's traveled the world studying the science

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Speaker 3: behind friendship.

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Speaker 2: Now you may remember we've had doctor Franco on Dope

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Speaker 2: Labs before we learned a lot from her in Lab

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Speaker 2: twenty six, and she didn't have a book then, so

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Speaker 2: we can't wait to get into the information that's in

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Speaker 2: this text. Yes, we know how important friendship is for

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Speaker 2: me and TT, but what does science tell us about friendship?

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Speaker 6: We know from the science set just like we need food,

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Speaker 6: we need water, we need air, we need social connection

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Speaker 6: to be functioning at our best, which is why research

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Speaker 6: actually finds that the impact of loneliness is a kind

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Speaker 6: to smoking fifteen cigarettes a day. It's actually linked to

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Speaker 6: how long you live, your level of connection even more

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Speaker 6: so than you're die, and the amount.

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Speaker 1: That you exercise.

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Speaker 3: So if this doesn't underscore how important friendship is in

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Speaker 3: combating loneliness, I don't know what will fifteen cigarettes a day,

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Speaker 3: how many cigarettes are in a pack.

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Speaker 6: I also think friendship specifically plays a huge role in

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Speaker 6: our identities. When we hang out with our friends, we

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Speaker 6: learn different ways of being in the world, and we

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Speaker 6: begin to incorporate that into who we are as people.

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Speaker 3: A lot of people put a lot of energy into

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Speaker 3: dating or finding their life love partners, but doctor Franco

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Speaker 3: is right, friendships are also really really important to our identities.

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Speaker 2: And doctor Franco says that people often pit romance and

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Speaker 2: friendship against each other when they're actually a lot more

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Speaker 2: connected than we might think.

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Speaker 6: Friendship is part of what having a healthy romantic relationship

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Speaker 6: looks like. For example, there are studies that find that

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Speaker 6: when you're going through conflict with your partner, you're gonna

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Speaker 6: have dysregulated stress hormone release, but not if you have

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Speaker 6: close friends. And so friendship in the ways that it

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Speaker 6: stabilizes us and grounds us also primes us to experience

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Speaker 6: healthier relationships and all other aspects of our lives.

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Speaker 2: Friendships feel like those before you could really swim. They

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Speaker 2: would give you those little things to go on your

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Speaker 2: arms to keep you from drowning. Uh huh, floaties when

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Speaker 2: you jump into a sea of conflict. Friendship is like

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Speaker 2: the floaties to be like, hey.

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Speaker 4: We have you bellied.

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Speaker 2: We're not gonna let you drown. Friends, that's perfect, and

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Speaker 2: this friendship has been that for me. Baby.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we more than floaties. Now, we a whole scuba suit.

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Speaker 3: We come with oxygen.

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Speaker 2: Okay, go down there if you want.

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Speaker 3: We've got even when you're down in the depths, you

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Speaker 3: still got it, we ask doctor Franco to break down

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Speaker 3: the difference between romantic and platonic relationships.

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Speaker 6: The origin of platonic comes from Plato the philosopher, and

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Speaker 6: he talked about friendship at a time when it really

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Speaker 6: wasn't seen on a hierarchy like it is today. And

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Speaker 6: in fact, they talk about a philosopher in the book

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Speaker 6: who has this quote around friendship being so beautiful because

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Speaker 6: we don't need sex to keep us together. We're just

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Speaker 6: in it because of each other's characters. And even if

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Speaker 6: we don't have this formal ceremonity to hold it together,

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Speaker 6: we're still in this relationship and in that way, it's

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Speaker 6: divine and its own right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, you know, I believe in the ability

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Speaker 2: to go. I think if every day you get to

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Speaker 2: wake up and choose like, yes, I still want to

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Speaker 2: engage with this person, it must be real.

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Speaker 4: Ye, Okay.

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Speaker 3: In Doctor Franco's book, she has this thing that she

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Speaker 3: calls a shovel friendship, and it's a person who is

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Speaker 3: your friend that would literally bury the body should you

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Speaker 3: show up. And I told her, Zakia is absolutely my

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Speaker 3: shovel friend.

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Speaker 2: And that's the thing, right, Somebody that is willing to

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Speaker 2: do that for you has to love you. Doctor Franko

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Speaker 2: tells us that people compartmentalize platonic and romantic relationships too much,

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Speaker 2: and that the same thing that makes romance successful also

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Speaker 2: creates successful friendships. A.

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Speaker 6: Rout Ad and I go as far as to argue

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Speaker 6: that actually romance is part of friendship, right, like those

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Speaker 6: feelings like you're idealizing someone, you want to spend all

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Speaker 6: your time with them, your territorial of them. People often

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Speaker 6: feel that in friends, particularly with best friendships, and that's

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Speaker 6: separate from sexual interest.

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Speaker 3: I love this point, and doctor Franco talks about this

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Speaker 3: in her book with some very specific stories throughout history.

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Speaker 3: One of our favorites that she shared was about President

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Speaker 3: Abraham Lincoln and his close friend Joshua Speed. They were

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Speaker 3: so close, these two men, they shared a bed, they

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Speaker 3: were love letters to each other back then.

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Speaker 4: That was all considered normal.

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Speaker 6: Romance has actually been part of friendship, even more so

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Speaker 6: than marriage throughout history, because we used to get married

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Speaker 6: to people because we wanted to pull resources, we wanted

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Speaker 6: to be affiliated with their family. It was a practical endeavor,

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Speaker 6: and the sexes were considered so distinct, so the idea

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Speaker 6: was you can't really connect with someone who's a different

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Speaker 6: gender as you. Where you find that deep romance, those

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Speaker 6: people that really get you, those people you feel passionate about,

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Speaker 6: is through your friends and so Abe and Joshua speed

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Speaker 6: story and historians still argue over whether this was sexual,

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Speaker 6: But I frame it in the larger context of the

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Speaker 6: time that their interaction was normal. Friends would carve their

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Speaker 6: names into trees, friends would even go on the honeymoons

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Speaker 6: of people that got married. Romance as being a part

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Speaker 6: of friendship was all normal, and we've only stigmatized it

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Speaker 6: more or seen it as separate from friendship within the

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Speaker 6: past one hundred.

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Speaker 1: And fifty years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I told t T that I would be on

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Speaker 2: her honeymoon before I realized it was going to be hiking.

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Speaker 2: Then I was out.

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Speaker 3: Then no one came. Shoot, my goodness. Everybody bailed out.

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Speaker 3: What happened? Whatving?

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Speaker 4: But I was at the wedding. Yes, you were one

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Speaker 4: of my bridesmaids. You have to be there. It was

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Speaker 4: no way I was doing it without you.

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Speaker 2: The stigmas be damned. I wasn't worried about those stigmas. Okay,

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Speaker 2: no new day new age and I'm feeling good.

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Speaker 3: But we wanted to know more about like when all

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Speaker 3: of this happened, When did that shift with friendship occur?

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Speaker 3: And doctor Franco talks about how industrialization actually impacted our

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Speaker 3: approach to friendship.

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Speaker 6: Before eighteen sixty seven, our sexual orientation it wasn't an identity.

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Speaker 6: It was just forbidden to have sex with someone of

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Speaker 6: the same sex. It wasn't forbidden to be gay, and

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Speaker 6: all these sort of consolation of behaviors that we associate

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Speaker 6: with being gay, like if you hold a friend's hand,

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Speaker 6: you're not having sex with them, so that's not stigmatized.

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Speaker 6: Or you write them a love letter, you're not having

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Speaker 6: sex with them, so that wasn't stigmatized at the time.

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Speaker 6: And then what started to happen is at that time,

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Speaker 6: industrialization was happening. People were moving into cities, things are

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Speaker 6: more anonymous, There started to be more same gender relationships.

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Speaker 6: There is a push for psychiatrists, specifically Sigmund Fred another

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Speaker 6: guy named Richard Vonkraft Ebbing, where they sort of created

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Speaker 6: this theory around same sex love. They created almost this

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Speaker 6: concept of sexual orientation as a larger identity because they

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Speaker 6: wanted to say that it was a disorder, So they

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Speaker 6: created this identity to then push this agenda of something

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Speaker 6: went wrong in your childhood that made you attracted to

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Speaker 6: be with someone of the same gender.

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Speaker 3: So what Freud was trying to do was intellectualize homophobia

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Speaker 3: by saying that homosexuality was some sort of perversion, and

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Speaker 3: that was to reinforce his and society's views of homosexuality.

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Speaker 4: So Freud was just a piece in the overall puzzle that.

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Speaker 3: Creates this society that is steeped in homophobia and affecting

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Speaker 3: same sex platonic relationships.

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Speaker 2: And I think a lot of this has to do

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Speaker 2: with the gendering of friendship. It was normal before for

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Speaker 2: men to have friends and be you know, the homies,

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Speaker 2: the same way we see besties always characterized as women

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Speaker 2: in the media. That was the same thing we were

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Speaker 2: seeing with men. It wasn't until over time we saw

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Speaker 2: friendship being characterized as feminine and femininity being tied to homosexuality,

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Speaker 2: and homosexuality being seen as negative that men felt to

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Speaker 2: perform heterosexuality, that they had to distance themselves from friendship

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Speaker 2: which felt feminine to them, and it becomes stigmatized along

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Speaker 2: with a lot of behaviors that were previously considered platonic.

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Speaker 3: Remember when we started saying, well, not we, But when

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Speaker 3: folks started saying romance, romance when it was just two

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Speaker 3: men that were friends, Yeah, what are we doing here?

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Speaker 4: The homophobia is just peaku.

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Speaker 6: All of these arguably romantic behaviors that were so normal

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Speaker 6: to friendship because of homophobia really became a lot less normal.

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Speaker 6: And even now, I think there's this concept in the

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Speaker 6: research called homo hysteria, which is fear of being perceived

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Speaker 6: as gay, and I think that phenomenon in particular really

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Speaker 6: affects straight men's ability to connect with each other. And

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Speaker 6: there's a study that the more homophobic a man is,

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Speaker 6: the less his friendships are because of the way we

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Speaker 6: conflate any sort of intimacy, natural normal intimacy between men,

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Speaker 6: we conflate it with sexual interest.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 2: We need to be talking about this because it's not

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Speaker 2: just in the research.

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Speaker 4: I'm seeing it.

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Speaker 3: I'm seeing it playing out on Instagram and Twitter and

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Speaker 3: the tiktoks daily daily.

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Speaker 2: Honey, If this is affecting your friendships, and we are

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Speaker 2: saying friendships are a key part of your romantic relationships,

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Speaker 2: it's also affecting your romantic relationships too.

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Speaker 3: Right, Because everything that you're supposed to be getting from

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Speaker 3: your friends, you are trying to get from your romantic partner.

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Speaker 3: With your romantic partner will ten times out of ten not.

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Speaker 4: Be able to fulfill.

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Speaker 3: So you really just out here in a relationship and

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Speaker 3: still lonely.

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Speaker 2: Fifteen cigarettes a day. I think this brings us right

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Speaker 2: back to what we were saying about friendship. This is

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Speaker 2: just another type of relationship. And if you haven't practiced

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Speaker 2: friendship with your platonic friends, you're supposed to automatically know

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Speaker 2: how to do it in a relationship.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that's how that works, y'all. Not Alan

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Speaker 4: overson out here.

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Speaker 3: You need you need to practice practice. Yes, we're talking

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Speaker 3: about practice.

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Speaker 2: And so when we think about how do people show

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Speaker 2: up in friendships right now, a lot of this is

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Speaker 2: related to attachment theory and attachment styles, how people show

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Speaker 2: up and how this affects their connection with others.

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Speaker 6: So the idea is who we are affects how we connect,

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Speaker 6: and how we've connected affects who we are our personality,

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Speaker 6: our trust of other people, our openness, our friendliness. That's

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Speaker 6: fundamentally shaped by whether we've connected in the past or

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Speaker 6: been heard in the past. That's really affected who we are.

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Speaker 3: In her book, Doctor Franco talks about six traits that

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Speaker 3: make it more likely for you to connect with people

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Speaker 3: their initiative, vulnerability, authenticity, productive, anger, affection, and generosity.

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Speaker 6: You would have these traits naturally if you didn't go

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Speaker 6: through some previous baggage trauma, big t, small tea charmer.

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Speaker 6: But if you didn't go through these wounds, you would

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Speaker 6: all have these traits. We're all inherently pro social and

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Speaker 6: social creatures.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Most primates that includes us are working together

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Speaker 2: in a social order to benefit ourselves and others. Okay,

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Speaker 2: And so how you're raised, your neighborhood, your economic factors,

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Speaker 2: your education, all of that determines the types of connections

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Speaker 2: that you make. Those early interactions kind of set that

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Speaker 2: mold for how you engage as you move about the

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Speaker 2: cabin of life. And so if you're operating with one

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Speaker 2: set of instructions and somebody else's operating with another, it

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Speaker 2: can be hard to make healthy, strong connections with those folks,

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Speaker 2: or even to form connections in the first place. We

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Speaker 2: begin to learn how to attach to others as babies,

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Speaker 2: and those experiences continue to inform our relationships as adults.

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Speaker 6: Attachment theory is basically telling us you have these early

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Speaker 6: relationships with your parents. It created a template for how

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Speaker 6: people will respond to you throughout life. And because social

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Speaker 6: interaction is inherently very ambiguous, you don't know why someone's

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Speaker 6: not responding to you. You don't know if someone's quiet

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Speaker 6: because they hate you or because they're.

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Speaker 1: Tired or hungry.

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Speaker 6: This template tends to be what is reality for us.

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Speaker 6: It tends to be what impacts our bodies, what impacts

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Speaker 6: how we respond, what impacts how we behave in our friendships,

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Speaker 6: more so than the truth, more so than whatever the

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Speaker 6: reality actually is.

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Speaker 3: We've talked about the mind body connection before in previous

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Speaker 3: labs like our lab called Good Anxiety with doctor Wendy Suzuki,

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Speaker 3: in Mind over Matter with doctor Susanne O'Sullivan and Art

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Speaker 3: Therapy with Professor Juliet King. And our relationships with other

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Speaker 3: people can affect how we feel in our bodies, depending

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Speaker 3: on whether we feel safe or not, and if we're

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Speaker 3: fearful or anxious, our bodies might go into fight or

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Speaker 3: flight with our friends, making it hard to make decisions

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Speaker 3: or have a calm conversation.

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Speaker 2: So when we think about it, our life experiences yes

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Speaker 2: create eight and cement what our attachment styles are going

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Speaker 2: to be.

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Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, our brain begins to predict.

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Speaker 2: How our relationships should go, how we connect with other people,

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Speaker 2: and it's all based on what we've seen before. So

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Speaker 2: over time, your template of what happens in relationships becomes

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Speaker 2: internalized as your attachment style, and this then predicts how

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Speaker 2: we form attachment or connection in relationships with others.

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Speaker 3: Doctor Franco's book focuses on three attachment styles, anxious, avoidant,

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Speaker 3: and secure. The first style is anxious attachment.

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Speaker 6: You think everybody is going to abandon you when it

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Speaker 6: comes to relationships. You are clinging or you take things personally.

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Speaker 6: You appreciate the ability to earn people's loves, so you

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Speaker 6: enter in relationships with people that don't treat you right.

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Speaker 6: You have trouble expressing your needs because again, you think

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Speaker 6: people are going to abandon you, and you tend to

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Speaker 6: develop friendships really quickly, but they can be very volatile

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Speaker 6: and also end very quickly.

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Speaker 4: Look to your left and to your right, do you

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Speaker 4: know someone like this or is it you right?

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Speaker 2: And that makes sense if you are nervous about things,

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Speaker 2: you're trying to quickly get to the good part. And

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Speaker 2: you don't want people to leave, so you're going to

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Speaker 2: be constantly doing those things. That makes sense to me.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Franco share some tips for folks with different attachment styles.

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Speaker 2: Here's what she suggests. If you're anxiously attached.

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Speaker 6: For anxiously attached, one thing that would really help is

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Speaker 6: to assume people like you. When you're anxiously attached, you

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Speaker 6: have this implicit low self esteem and you think other

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Speaker 6: people don't like you. So if it's ambiguous and you

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Speaker 6: don't know, just assume that people like you.

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Speaker 2: The second is avoidant attachment.

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Speaker 6: You tend to not have that many friends, and if

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Speaker 6: you do, they don't feel like they really know you.

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Speaker 6: Feels like you're at a distance. You don't ask your

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Speaker 6: friends for anything. You feel very easily burdened if they

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Speaker 6: ask you for something. If there's a problem in friendship,

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Speaker 6: you just sort of tend to cut it off. Your

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Speaker 6: template is that people can't be trusted and if I

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Speaker 6: go to them for help, they will not help me.

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Speaker 6: So I have to be self sufficient and that affects

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Speaker 6: how avoidantly attached people interpret the world. For example, I

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Speaker 6: say a study that shows that when someone does something

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Speaker 6: nice for it, avoidantly attached people, they think that that

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Speaker 6: person is doing it because they want something out of them,

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Speaker 6: and that's the.

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Speaker 1: Reality that is in their body.

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Speaker 6: So when people do nice things for them, they're not

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Speaker 6: even taking that in and they continue to go forth

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Speaker 6: in the world like it's true that people can't be

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Speaker 6: trusted even when people are showing them love all around them.

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Speaker 2: This has to do with how you have formed these

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Speaker 2: templates for attachment in the past or in your early

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Speaker 2: stages as a child.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: The next tip is one that works for both anxious

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Speaker 3: and avoidant attachment styles, and it's to recognize moments of

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Speaker 3: safety in your relationships.

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Speaker 6: When you are anxiously or avoidantly attached, you tune in

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Speaker 6: so much to the negative because that's what your internal

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Speaker 6: template is, and you don't notice when people are being

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Speaker 6: loving towards you, or affirming you or supporting you. And

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Speaker 6: so when your friend shows up for you, when your

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Speaker 6: friend listens to you, when your friend reaches out to you,

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Speaker 6: just to check in, pause and savor that in your body.

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Speaker 6: What does that feel like for you internally?

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Speaker 2: Doctor Franco cites the work of doctor Rick Hansen, another psychologist,

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Speaker 2: about internalizing moments of safety and how that can actually

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Speaker 2: change your brain structure. For avoidantly attached people, doctor Franco

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Speaker 2: suggests asking yourself if there's something that someone has done

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Speaker 2: to suggest that they're untrustworthy, and if.

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Speaker 6: You cannot identify something that they've done, recognize that your

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Speaker 6: assumption that you can't trust them is coming from your

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Speaker 6: history rather than the realities of the situation, and ask yourself,

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Speaker 6: how would I go about this relationship differently if I

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Speaker 6: felt like I could trust that.

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Speaker 1: Person and experiment.

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Speaker 6: Experimenting is really important for changing our attachment styles, because

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Speaker 6: attachment sells like an algorithm. If A, then B. If

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Speaker 6: I'm vulnerable, people will reject me. If I reach out,

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Speaker 6: people won't want to hear from me. And when we

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Speaker 6: experiment and we do the thing that makes us scared

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Speaker 6: and there's a different outcome, and we savor that outcome,

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Speaker 6: we internalize that outcome, we feel the impact in our bodies.

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Speaker 6: That's the work of changing our internal algorithm.

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Speaker 2: And so when doctor Franco mentions changing our internal algorithm,

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Speaker 2: it's not changing our attachment style, but it's changing how

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Speaker 2: we operate, how we move.

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Speaker 3: You know, knowing your attachment style is just knowing yourself

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Speaker 3: a little bit better. I feel like I fall more

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Speaker 3: in the avoidant attachment style, and with that knowledge, I

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Speaker 3: can be a better friend to my really good friends

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Speaker 3: because I can say I don't want my really good

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Speaker 3: friends to feel like I don't want to be around

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Speaker 3: them or like I don't value them. So now that

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Speaker 3: I know this about myself and what my knee jerk

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Speaker 3: reactions might be, I can do a little course correction

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Speaker 3: with the people I love. And that brings us to

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Speaker 3: the third style of attachment, and it's called secure attachment.

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Speaker 6: And then you have securely attached people who are comfortable

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Speaker 6: giving and receiving affection, who tend to initiate more friendships,

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Speaker 6: have more enduring friendships, be better at working through conflict

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Speaker 6: in friendships, make their friends feel safer. And their biggest

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Speaker 6: assumption is they assume people like them at all stages

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Speaker 6: of friendship, and that helps them initiate new friendships, That

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Speaker 6: helps them work through conflicted ways where it doesn't get

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Speaker 6: into fight or flights, that helps them rekindle old friendships.

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Speaker 6: They just have this sort of endless optimism and perspective

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Speaker 6: taking where they're thinking about their friends' needs and their

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Speaker 6: own and balancing the.

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Speaker 2: Two well that sounds nice.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I know someone just like this, the friendliest friend

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Speaker 3: of all friends.

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Speaker 5: I'll let y'all guess.

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Speaker 2: You know TC. When I consider this, I don't think

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Speaker 2: any one attachment style is better than the other.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we're tempted to say, you know, secure

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Speaker 3: attachment is the superior attachment.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's just how much course correction might you

435
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Speaker 2: have to do for other people to understand what's going

436
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Speaker 2: on you to get out of your own way, even right,

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Speaker 2: because it doesn't change the interactions that we're all having.

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Speaker 2: It's just how we're coding them as they come in, Like,

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Speaker 2: what's my algorithm saying this interaction we're having means?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: So like if someone with security attachment walked into a

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Speaker 3: room full of people, they might say, oh, look at

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Speaker 3: all these potential friends, or look at all of these

444
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 3: friends that I'm about to have. And someone with avoiding

445
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: or anxious attachment might walk into that same room and say, mmm,

446
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 3: I'm not sure. But if you know those things about yourself,

447
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,159
Speaker 3: you might say, I'm walking into this room, I'm unsure

448
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 3: of all these people. I don't trust them, but maybe

449
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 3: I'll open myself up. The first person that walks up

450
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,120
Speaker 3: to me and says hello, maybe i'll, you know, continue

451
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 3: a conversation with them rather than run away like I

452
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 3: would do. People can work towards being securely attached, but

453
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 3: sometimes it's also a sign of privilege. That means that

454
00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 3: you have experienced a better childhood environment than a lot

455
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 3: of other people. It's easier for you to regulate your emotions.

456
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 3: Oprah has this really good book with Bruce Perry where

457
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 3: he talks about regulation as a privilege. It means that

458
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: you haven't been through traumas and also maybe systemic traumas too,

459
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: like you know, racism, sexism, hobophobia, all these things could

460
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 3: also contribute.

461
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: And so if you are securely attached, what should you do.

462
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 6: In recognizing the privilege of your attachment. I think you,

463
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 6: as the secure person can do things that other people

464
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 6: might not be able to do, like be regulated in conflict,

465
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 6: bring up conflict and issues with your friend and de

466
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 6: escalating that conflict, keeping things really fair, being there for

467
00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,560
Speaker 6: your friends when they are vulnerable, and making them feel

468
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,159
Speaker 6: validated and love. Like you have all of these superpowers,

469
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 6: and the more that you use them, the more security

470
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 6: you're going to give to other people. You're going to

471
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 6: heal a lot of people with the ways that you

472
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 6: show up in the world.

473
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: What doctor Franklin is saying is so important. There have

474
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,920
Speaker 2: been plenty of times where this friendship has been healing

475
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: for me.

476
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 4: You know, same, same, Absolutely.

477
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: It becomes a positive cycle, right because if you are

478
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: affirmed and healed here, you know, it fuels you up

479
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,520
Speaker 2: and you can go out into the world and spread

480
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 2: a little bit more love.

481
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 4: Absolutely, it's like pay it forward or like a ripple effect.

482
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 4: Mm hm. They say hurt people, hurt people, but healed

483
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 4: people heal people.

484
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: You're gonna start making bumper stickers.

485
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 3: I can't take credit for this stuff. I'm sure I

486
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 3: heard it on TikTok. All right, let's take a break

487
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: and when we come back, we'll get into how to

488
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 3: address conflict with friends, how vulnerability can make our connections stronger,

489
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 3: and how to make new friends.

490
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: We're back and next week we're talking all about the

491
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 2: economy with doctor Vanessa Perry. She's going to help us

492
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: understand inflation, the recession, the FED, the interest rate changes,

493
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: all the things that you need to know to be

494
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: able to navigate the murky waters of what is the

495
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 2: US economy.

496
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 4: Okay, let's get back to the lab.

497
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 3: We've been talking to doctor Marissa Franco about the importance

498
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 3: of friendship attachment theory and how our attachment styles affect

499
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 3: our relationships, and.

500
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 2: We really wanted to learn more about conflict in friendships too.

501
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,439
Speaker 2: It's normalized to have fights with your significant other or

502
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: someone that you're dating, but it can feel kind of

503
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 2: awkward to have conflict with a friend. Sometimes it seems

504
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 2: easier to just end the whole friendship.

505
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: That's usually my style.

506
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 3: I'm always just like, oh, you want to auga, I

507
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 3: can't argue with you, ha ha ha.

508
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,720
Speaker 2: Even if you don't want to argue, TT is gonna

509
00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 2: still take that route. Even if you don't argue.

510
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: If I even get a whiff of an argument, I'm like,

511
00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: I'm out.

512
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 4: That actually happened to me and you and.

513
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: We talked about it before. And if you haven't heard it,

514
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: go back and listen to Lab twenty six, which is

515
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 2: called what about your Friends.

516
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,280
Speaker 3: Yes, I tried to stop being friends with Zekiah and

517
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 3: she wouldn't let me, thankfully. Thankfully, Doctor Franco said this

518
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 3: normal for all kinds of intimate relationships to have conflicts,

519
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 3: and that includes friendships and In her book, she talks

520
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,639
Speaker 3: about how she learned to get over her fear of

521
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 3: conflict in friendships.

522
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 6: I felt like, if there's a problem in friendship, it's

523
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 6: my job to get over it. That's how I'm a

524
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 6: good friend until I could it anymore.

525
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: And it's one of my best friends.

526
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 6: We got into an argument, little things like she got

527
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 6: mad at me when we say django, but it started

528
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,920
Speaker 6: to accumulate and I'm like, Okay, I think it's my

529
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 6: job to get over it, but I'm not.

530
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: And now I'm withdrawing.

531
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 6: So maybe this whole me trying to solve this problem

532
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 6: on my own is it really working? And I came

533
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 6: across the study that was like open and pass conflict

534
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 6: contributes to more intimacy.

535
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: Guys, Like, what.

536
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 6: What conflict could benefit our friendships? It's not just conflict,

537
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 6: it's how you do it. It's how you express your anger.

538
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: Doctor Franco says that authenticity is key when you're navigating

539
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: conflict with your friends.

540
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: We hear the word a lot.

541
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 6: It's so hard to pin down and how I define

542
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,959
Speaker 6: it is who we are when we're not hijacked by

543
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 6: our defense mechanisms. So when we're in fight or flight,

544
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 6: we're hijacked by our defense mechanisms because those are protecting

545
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 6: a deeper and more vulnerable feeling a fear of hurt.

546
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 6: And when we're not hijacked by these defense mechanisms, instead

547
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 6: of me telling you you suck in this way, you're

548
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,959
Speaker 6: an awful friend, I'm going to talk shit about you

549
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 6: now to my other friends.

550
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 1: All of that is my.

551
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 6: Hurt being expressed in these inauthentic ways. And so if

552
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 6: I can instead say, actually, I was just really hurt

553
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 6: and I felt really disappointed and I felt kind of

554
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 6: down right, I can stay with that level of vulnerability

555
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 6: instead of using these defense mechanisms to make me less

556
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 6: vulnerable but also to harden my friendships.

557
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 3: Authentic vulnerability is a lot harder to practice than it sounds,

558
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: because what comes naturally to us is our defense mechanisms,

559
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 3: and those kick in automatically.

560
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 6: We know that's happening because we become reactive. We feel

561
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 6: like the way respond has to be urgent in the moment.

562
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 6: Right now, it almost feels impulsive when we're communicating in

563
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 6: that way that's not authentic. And so if we can

564
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 6: get to that more authentic place, that's what the conflict

565
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 6: that's healing. Looks like there's this psychoadalyst's Virginia Boulner, and

566
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 6: she talks about flaccid safety versus dynamic safety. Flaccid safety,

567
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 6: we just pretend the problems aren't happening, and we are

568
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 6: comforted by our game of pretend. Dynamic safety. We rupture,

569
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 6: we repair. We know that when problems come up, we

570
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 6: can repair, and we experience a deeper level of intimacy.

571
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: Yes, I love dynamic safety, we know, but no, it's important,

572
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: like I wish everybody to have a friend in their

573
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 2: friend group that is like that, because when you create

574
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 2: spaces for your friends to feel like they can be vulnerable.

575
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 3: Doctor Franco's absolutely right. It deepens the friendship. It makes

576
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 3: you feel more connected, it makes you feel heard, it

577
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 3: makes you feel seen and in a world where nobody's

578
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 3: looking and seeing anybody or listening to anyone, I hope

579
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: you can feel like that.

580
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 4: With your close friends.

581
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: Yes, and you know, our bodies, even when you think

582
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: about how we get strong when we exercise tears in

583
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 2: the muscles, you know our body has systems for physical

584
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: rupture and repair. And so it's really interesting and exciting

585
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: to me because you know, I love all things about

586
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 2: the body that we can do this emotionally as well.

587
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: Yes, So if we're looking to deepen a friendship, how

588
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: do we actually work on being more vulnerable with our friends.

589
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 6: I used to very much see vulnerability as a burden

590
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 6: to people. And my mom she never cried until her

591
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 6: father died. That was the first time I saw her cry.

592
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 6: So was it modeled for me?

593
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: You know?

594
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 6: I think as black women, there's historical reasons why we

595
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 6: maybe don't feel as safe being volterable. And I thought

596
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 6: everybody wanted to see me as perfect and polished, so

597
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 6: I tried not to be votable.

598
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: That's very real, but also very hard.

599
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really tough for you know, women of color,

600
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 3: people in marginalized communities to show that level of vulnerability.

601
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 3: I think for black women specifically the whole, Like black

602
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 3: women are super hard and super tough and they don't

603
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: feel pain type of thing. It really prevents us from

604
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 3: being able to experience these vulnerable moments because people don't

605
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 3: expect it from us and don't give us the space

606
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 3: to do it right.

607
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 2: Leave me out of the strong black woman trope. I

608
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: have weak ankles and weak risks.

609
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 6: Part of being human is having to be vulnerable. I'm

610
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 6: sorry to break it to you. I've had to break

611
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,720
Speaker 6: it to myself. It really hit home to me when

612
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 6: I interviewed this expert on secrets, Michel Slepian. He had

613
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 6: this study where he looked at who's really good at

614
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 6: holding the weight of their secrets? Is there something inhering

615
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 6: about them? Were they very self sufficient or independent? But

616
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 6: he found that the people that were best at navigating

617
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 6: the weight of their secrets had actually told someone their

618
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 6: secrets and that person received it positively. And I asked him,

619
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,239
Speaker 6: what is the number one thing you would suggest that

620
00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 6: we do with our secrets so they don't feel oppressive

621
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 6: to us, And he said, tell someone, tell someone about

622
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 6: your secrets. We become strong through sharing who we are

623
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 6: with someone who loves and validates us, and we internalize

624
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 6: that love and that regard into our hearts and to

625
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 6: our core.

626
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,239
Speaker 2: Recently, I had a friend ask me about therapy, and

627
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: you know, if anybody's asked me, I'm like, hey, I

628
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 2: am a strong proponent of therapy at time, thinking it's

629
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: very good for you to have a place where you

630
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: can talk and feel like you can share secrets. And

631
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 2: the person was asking me about how to use a therapist.

632
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: She's like, well, you have all these friends and she

633
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:10,239
Speaker 2: was like, well, are there things that you would tell

634
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: your therapists that you wouldn't tell your friends?

635
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 4: And I was like, not really.

636
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: I feel like my friends are like, wily, I'll be dumping,

637
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 2: I'll be fitting all that trash and you just come

638
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 2: and scoopid and.

639
00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 4: You put it in these little squares.

640
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: You are good to me. But I was saying, sometimes

641
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: because there's so much romance or loving friendships, they won't

642
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 2: tell you that your poop is thinking. They won't tell

643
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 2: you that it's your roses really smell like boom boom

644
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: boom boom, you know, and you might need somebody to

645
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 2: do that, and they will accept your secrets. But that

646
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: can be helpful to kind of build your ability to

647
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: share with someone you're paying to keep your secrets.

648
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and doctor Franco said, it's okay to start slowly

649
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: by scaffolding your vulnerability.

650
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 6: Who in your life feels the safest start with that.

651
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 6: Maybe it's your therapist, I don't know, if it's your mom.

652
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 6: Talk to them first, because if they make you feel

653
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 6: safe when they share their reaction, what that's going to

654
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 6: do is make it feel less vulnerable when you go

655
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:09,919
Speaker 6: to the second person, who's more.

656
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: Of a wild card.

657
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: According to research by doctor Anna Brook, there's something called

658
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: the beautiful mess effect, which makes us assume that people

659
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 3: will judge us more for being vulnerable while dismissing the

660
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 3: positive outcome of being seen as authentic.

661
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 6: So remind yourself that if you think your vulnerability is

662
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 6: going to lead to people taking advantage and there's no

663
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,760
Speaker 6: evidence of this, then you might be experiencing the beautiful

664
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 6: mess effect. Remember that it doesn't have to be comfortable.

665
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 6: You're doing this because it fulfills your larger values of

666
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 6: taking care of yourself or connecting with people. It's get

667
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 6: active love to yourself to be vulnerable.

668
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 2: That's a great point. Maybe understanding that vulnerability serves a

669
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: larger purpose in deepening our relationships can help us challenge

670
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: ourselves to lean into it even when it's uncomfortable.

671
00:34:59,480 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 4: Right.

672
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,680
Speaker 3: And I think another great point is we talked about

673
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 3: in the last episode with doctor Franco about dignifying friendships,

674
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 3: Like if you give your friendship some dignity, being vulnerable

675
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: will be part of dignifying that friendship. And something that's

676
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 3: also important to keep in mind is your own boundaries.

677
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: There's a big spectrum between healthy discomfort and feeling unsafe.

678
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 2: We talked about this a little bit in LAP seventy five.

679
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 2: Can you change Someone's mind? When we're talking about conflicts

680
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: around prejudice or other topics that have real effect on

681
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: our lives, racism, homophobia, classism, all the other isms, there

682
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 2: are cases where you won't be able to see eye

683
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: to eye and stay in relationship with that person, and

684
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: you may feel unsafe with that person and have to

685
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 2: end a friendship. And doctor Franco says that her identity

686
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 2: as a black woman has affected how she navigates her friendships.

687
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 6: I often hear white people, privileged people saying, well, being

688
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,719
Speaker 6: mature means getting over it and still being friends, And

689
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 6: maybe that's the right choice for some people. But I

690
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 6: think that assumption that that's for everyone can really discount

691
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 6: how unsettling it can feel to be friends with someone

692
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 6: who you feel doesn't humanize you as a person. I

693
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 6: talk about in the book how I went through this

694
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 6: experience where my friend, she's white, she called me a

695
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 6: diversity higher, which she introduced me to all of her

696
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 6: other friends and how it sounds like a single moment,

697
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 6: but what I talk about in the book is that

698
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 6: it's not a passing moment. It's a cumulative moment that

699
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 6: is a trigger because it reminds you of every moment

700
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,400
Speaker 6: someone has treated you like you're less intelligent throughout your

701
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,120
Speaker 6: entire life, because it reflects that you are living in

702
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 6: a larger society that devalues your intelligence. And if you

703
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 6: think about a paper cut that's been cut at in

704
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 6: the same place for hundreds of years, it's going to

705
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 6: be a very deep wound.

706
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 2: It's important that your friends that are other races or

707
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 2: a different class see.

708
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 4: You as equal.

709
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I feel like we saw a lot of

710
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 3: friendships relationships coming to a head during the Black Lives

711
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: Matter movement COVID when folks were communicating pain and some

712
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 3: of their friends, family members, loved ones, we're dismissing them,

713
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 3: and so people were having to reckon with Wow, what

714
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 3: do I do next?

715
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 4: Do I keep this person in my life?

716
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 3: Do I say no and draw a hard line and say, okay, well,

717
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,160
Speaker 3: this friendship is over, this relationship is over.

718
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 4: Those are decisions that you have to.

719
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 3: Make because when we're talking about certain issues, it's life

720
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:37,000
Speaker 3: or death. And if someone doesn't humanize you and champion

721
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,759
Speaker 3: your voice and hear you and see you, that ain't

722
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,319
Speaker 3: a friend. It don't sound like a friend to me,

723
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 3: sounds like an enemy.

724
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: And what you're talking about tt doctor Franco talks about

725
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 2: in her book and calls it adjusted mutuality. And the

726
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 2: adjusted part is key because if you're just having a mutuality,

727
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 2: then that's just one to one. Everybody's view is equal.

728
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 2: But when you have friends that are from different groups,

729
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: let's say one from a privileged group run from a

730
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: disadvantage group, that one to one isn't holding to the

731
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: same weight. And so doctor Franco says that what we

732
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,959
Speaker 2: need is the more privileged person to do a little

733
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 2: bit more work to understand the disadvantaged person's perspective, and

734
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 2: that is adjusted mutuality.

735
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 6: And the truth is that we need this adjusted mutuality

736
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 6: in our friendships to correct for a world in a

737
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,360
Speaker 6: society that is inherently non mutual, Like we're not becoming

738
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 6: friends in a blink slate. We're becoming friends in a

739
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 6: place where if you're from a disadvantage identity, you have

740
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 6: to spend so much more time and energy understanding the

741
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,839
Speaker 6: perspective of privileged.

742
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: People, and we know that privilege and identity are complex.

743
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 3: Some things are fixed, like race, where you were born,

744
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 3: et cetera, while other circumstances might change over time, like

745
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: class education. It's important to consider the complexity of someone's

746
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 3: whole personhood in our relationships. Doctor Franco shares three steps

747
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 3: for building friendships with people who may have different privileges

748
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 3: in life experience than you. Those three steps are vet, vulnerability,

749
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: and voice.

750
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 6: That is looking for people that do value your identity

751
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,839
Speaker 6: when you're choosing who to be friends with.

752
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 3: Vulnerability is bringing your full self to the friendship, just

753
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: like we were talking about before, which means you don't,

754
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:19,800
Speaker 3: you know, break off little pieces of yourself and only

755
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 3: show parts of yourself to your friend.

756
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 6: And then voice means when your friend screws up and

757
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 6: says something hurtful, you gotta tell them. Often, if we

758
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 6: don't have the conversation or the conflict because we're afraid

759
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 6: the friendship's going to end, the friendship ends anyway because

760
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 6: we withdraw because we're so RESTful and we're like, I

761
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 6: don't want to be around this, so goodbye. And so

762
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 6: if you actually want to continue on the friendship. You

763
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 6: have to be able to say that was actually pretty

764
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 6: hurtful to me, Like, what did you mean when.

765
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: You said that?

766
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 3: And I think that anybody who has friends, these are

767
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 3: things that you know, the vulnerability and being your full

768
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 3: self and the friendship are things that we can all

769
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: continue to do because like, even if you've had a

770
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 3: friend since you were five years old, you know that

771
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: you've changed and that person has changed.

772
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 4: Your lives have changed a lot of different ways.

773
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 3: And so these are exercises that we have to continually

774
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 3: do with all of the people that we care about.

775
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 3: It's not just something that oh, we did it once

776
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:16,640
Speaker 3: and then we can forget about it. It's something that

777
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 3: we have to put into practice and do consistently, especially

778
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:22,959
Speaker 3: when we care about folks.

779
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 2: You know, we started the top of this episode talking

780
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 2: about that Psychology Today article, but that's not the only

781
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 2: place that I've seen conversation about friendship and belonging. And

782
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: you know, even coming out of the pandemic, we talked

783
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 2: about loneliness and what people experienced and how many people

784
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 2: are saying their friendships have changed.

785
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 3: Absolutely because they weren't able to meet up see each

786
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 3: other in the ways that they used to prior to

787
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 3: the pandemic when we were all having to stay at home.

788
00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, friendships definitely went through.

789
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 2: It, and once you kind of he and on it,

790
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 2: it's hard to not see the thread of friendship running

791
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: through so much of what's surround us. I was looking

792
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: at Abbot Elementary and they were saying like it was

793
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 2: an episode about work friends, whether they were real friends.

794
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 4: Or work friends.

795
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 2: You know, and you know me and you were out

796
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: of college. Yeah, and so it becomes hard to maintain

797
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 2: friendships and to build new ones, and to sometimes decide

798
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: if you will keep the ones you have.

799
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: Right, Right, Because as we are moving through our lives,

800
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 3: things change. Who we are changes, and so there's a

801
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 3: lot of difficult decisions that we have to make. And

802
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: sometimes it's not that you've outgrown a person, but you

803
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,760
Speaker 3: have changed so much that maybe your lives don't overlap anymore.

804
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 1: And I think.

805
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: Because we are in this society that is moving so

806
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,479
Speaker 2: fast and rewards productivity and not stopping to take a beat.

807
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: Along with the changes that you're having, right, you're also

808
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: processing every single thing that happens to you through your

809
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 2: own lens. And I think we've talked about this in

810
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 2: can you change someone's mind? When we talk to Dave McRaney,

811
00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: you know, you're processing of what's happening to you. The

812
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: same thing could be happening to somebody else and they

813
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,560
Speaker 2: may receive it completely differently.

814
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 4: Right.

815
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 3: Have you ever had moments where someone is telling the

816
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 3: story and it involves you and they're imitating you, and

817
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 3: you're like, I wasn't yelling.

818
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: They're like, yes, you were. You're like, no, I wasn't.

819
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 2: Let me tell you yes. And I was just talking

820
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,200
Speaker 2: about this last night, actually it was today, because I

821
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: was saying that I have these shocks most of the

822
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: time with you, when we are talking, you will imitate me,

823
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 2: And I say, have you seen those things where it

824
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 2: says you don't think you have an accent? There are

825
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 2: things that I say or the way I think things

826
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: come across when you play that tape back that's not

827
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 2: how I intended it a lot of the time, and

828
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 2: I think about that a lot. One of my friends'

829
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 2: moms who I'm always excited to talk to, she's so funny,

830
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 2: she's so animated, and I'm always like, Hey, what's going on?

831
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 4: How are you?

832
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 2: And when she replies to me, she says, hello, how

833
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 2: are you, because she said I talk like a robot

834
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 2: and that I have no inflection. Oh no, that's how

835
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 2: she receives the way I'm speaking to her like that.

836
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 2: I'm not excited to talk to her, but I am.

837
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: So that just underscores the point that you and doctor

838
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 3: Franco made. Who we are and how we grew up

839
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 3: and the things that we've experienced through our lives will

840
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 3: dictate how we receive information from our friends, from our family,

841
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 3: from people that we work with, to people that you're

842
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 3: just walking by on the street. I was listening to

843
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 3: the radio and they were talking about how there is

844
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 3: a specific demographic, which is black men, that we're struggling

845
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,719
Speaker 3: at the workplace because they are less likely to make

846
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 3: eye contact with, you know, some of their superiors. And

847
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 3: so they were saying that that was impacting their work

848
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 3: relationships because I guess their superiors felt like they weren't trustworthy,

849
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 3: that it seemed like they weren't doing what they were

850
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 3: supposed to be doing because they weren't making eye contact.

851
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 3: But you got to think of the context of black

852
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 3: men in America. Not too long ago, Emmett Till was

853
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 3: killed for looking at a white woman in the eye or.

854
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,720
Speaker 4: Speaking to her or something whatever happened.

855
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 3: And so you can imagine how incidences like that, and

856
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: an innumerable amount of other incidences that are similar to that,

857
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:44,320
Speaker 3: would shift how black men interact with not only white women,

858
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 3: but they're superiors at work and white men.

859
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: All this stuff is all jumbled up, and we're not

860
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 2: stopping to take the time. These brains will have you

861
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 2: lumping people's behaviors into all kinds of categories. This determines

862
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 2: what we like, This determines what we don't like. This

863
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: determines the the type of people we decide to pursue

864
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: relationships with, the people we choose to trust. Like you said,

865
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: it's all in there together. And so I think when

866
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 2: you have the opportunity to reflect and say, hey, what's

867
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 2: my style? The only person's behavior you can control as

868
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 2: your own baby, Okay. And so if you spend a

869
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: little time saying, how do I move in the world,

870
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: how do I perceive people's actions?

871
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 4: I think this can kind of help you.

872
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: And this may help you also see what might be

873
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,759
Speaker 2: missing or should be added or should be dialed back

874
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: in some of your friendships. Absolutely, what I'm taking away

875
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: is that you don't want dynamic safety.

876
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 3: My friend is tired of my dynamic safety. You guys,

877
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 3: I'm not tired of nothing. I want to go on

878
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: record and say that I'm not tired of nothing.

879
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 4: My friend, she understands me. She gets me. I do,

880
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 4: and that's all I ask. All.

881
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 3: All right, it's time for one thing and my one

882
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 3: thing for this week. And Knda Is the kid is

883
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: one thing for this week too, But she has her

884
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: own thing is doctor Marissa G.

885
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: Franco's book.

886
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 3: It's called Platonic How the Science of Attachment can help

887
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 3: You Make and Keep Friends, And it is out right now.

888
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 3: She gave us an advanced look at it, and let

889
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: me tell you, I have a rainbow of highlights and tabs.

890
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 4: It's so good.

891
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 3: I think there's something for everyone to learn about themselves

892
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 3: in this book and to help them be a better friend.

893
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 2: Yes, definitely, co sign on that.

894
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 4: What's your one thing this week? Zee?

895
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 2: My one thing along with this book has been this newsletter.

896
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 5: You know.

897
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 2: I love a newsletter that I've been reading by Carissa Potter,

898
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 2: and it's called Bad at Keeping Secrets. Now we're gonna

899
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 2: link both doctor Franco's book and this newsletter in the

900
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: show notes. So that's Dope labspodcast dot com and you

901
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,359
Speaker 2: can just click on the show notes and it will

902
00:46:56,400 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: take you there. This newsletter explores emotions, feelings, thoughts, and

903
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 2: regulating your thoughts and I just loved it.

904
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 4: It's a substack newsletter.

905
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 2: So I read one post that was about regret and

906
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:11,760
Speaker 2: it was so good that I had to talk about regret.

907
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: I think I came and talked to you about regret

908
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: after that. I posted it on my Instagram. So good,

909
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: but can't wait for people to check it out. That's

910
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 2: it for Lab seventy eight. But guess what, we have.

911
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 4: A poem for you.

912
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: We want to know which attachment style do you identify

913
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 2: with the most anxious, avoidant or secure? Let us know

914
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,479
Speaker 2: and knowing these things, does it make you think back

915
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: on any interactions you've had. I want to hear drop

916
00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: the t in the DM. So, okay, call us at

917
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight

918
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: and tell us what you thought, or give us an

919
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 2: idea for another lab you think we should do this semester.

920
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: We really like hearing from you, and I did get

921
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,839
Speaker 2: y'all's text. Okay, I'm getting to zero two five six

922
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: seven seven zero two.

923
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 3: Eight, and don't forget there's so much more for you

924
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 3: to dig into on our website. There'll be a cheat

925
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 3: sheet for today's lab and additional links and resources in

926
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 3: the show notes. Plus, you can sign up for our

927
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 3: newsletter check it out at Dope labspodcast dot com. Special

928
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,720
Speaker 3: thanks to today's guest expert, Doctor Marissa Franco.

929
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: Find her on Twitter at doctor Marissa G.

930
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: Franco, and you can find us on Twitter and Instagram

931
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 3: at Dope Labs Podcast.

932
00:48:28,640 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 2: Tt is on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho.

933
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: And you can find Zakia at z said So.

934
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,240
Speaker 2: Dope Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Ohm

935
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 2: Media Group. Our producers are Jenny Radlett Mass and Lydia

936
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: Smith of WaveRunner Studios. Our associate producer is Caro Rolando.

937
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 2: Editing and sound design by Rob Smerciak, with additional editing,

938
00:48:53,480 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: mixing and sound design by Hannes Brown.

939
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,919
Speaker 3: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Ali

940
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 3: zugi Era from Spotify Creative producer Miguel Contreras.

941
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,399
Speaker 2: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Till krat Key,

942
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 2: and Brian Marquis, Executive producers from Mega Own Media Group

943
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 2: rs t T Show Dia and Zakiah Wattley