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Speaker 1: Heart Media, or their employees. Hey everyone, So I had
Speaker 1: learned that Miriam Webster made gas slighting the word of
Speaker 1: the year for two thousand twenty two, and just so
Speaker 1: you know, in two thousand nineteen it was toxic. So
Speaker 1: there's something happening out there. I was both shocked, thrilled,
Speaker 1: and a little concerned. Frankly, when I saw that was
Speaker 1: the word of the year, I was happy because finally,
Speaker 1: what we're seeing is that people are starting to get
Speaker 1: educated about these patterns. And sometimes when you have a
Speaker 1: word for something and you realize that it's a thing,
Speaker 1: you're in a better position to cope with it and
Speaker 1: not think that you're the only one. So that part
Speaker 1: made me happy. The part that gave me concern is
Speaker 1: that not everybody understands it. Gas Lighting isn't just somebody saying, gut,
Speaker 1: never happened. That's sort of like it's taking a really
Speaker 1: subtle concept and making it simple. Gas Lighting is a
Speaker 1: is a much more complex process. It requires that you
Speaker 1: have trust in someone or you believe in their expertise.
Speaker 1: For example, would have to be like a partner or
Speaker 1: a family member, a close friend, or someone you're turning
Speaker 1: to for their expertise. Yes, the first step is that
Speaker 1: they do deny your reality, perception or experience, deny that
Speaker 1: something happened, or deny that you remembered something pro really,
Speaker 1: but the next piece is essential and required for it
Speaker 1: to be gas lighting, which is then then the person
Speaker 1: goes to the next step and says, there's something wrong
Speaker 1: with you, what's wrong with your mind? You seem real paranoid,
Speaker 1: you're off, my gosh, you're so sensitive, so much drama
Speaker 1: with you, You're so emotional. You see that step, It
Speaker 1: goes just beyond saying that didn't happen. It's them saying
Speaker 1: that didn't happen, and there's something wrong with you. Gas
Speaker 1: Lighting is not a one off. It happens over and
Speaker 1: over and over again in a relationship, and the challenges
Speaker 1: if you keep hearing not only your reality is wrong,
Speaker 1: or reality that you perceive is wrong, or experience you
Speaker 1: had never happened, and then you keep being told there's
Speaker 1: something wrong with you. That accumulates over time, especially if
Speaker 1: you don't understand what it is. If it's happened in
Speaker 1: other areas of your life, it feels plausible. Most people
Speaker 1: then turn to self blame, and if it happens long enough,
Speaker 1: at the end of this cycle, what we see is
Speaker 1: a person who is actually completely imprisoned by the gas
Speaker 1: lighter and just simply agrees with them on everything, and
Speaker 1: to the world, what it looks like is that the
Speaker 1: person standing next to that gas lighter is in full
Speaker 1: agreement with them. That's where we see things develop like
Speaker 1: cult like structures or even cult like families, where nobody's
Speaker 1: in disagreement and it really does feel that there's no
Speaker 1: reality allowed except for the gas lighters. So I think
Speaker 1: it's amazing that it's there. I think it's important you
Speaker 1: understand it the way I said it. But my concern though,
Speaker 1: too is that as words become the word of the
Speaker 1: year toxic and this year gaslight, is that we might
Speaker 1: sort of start losing the power of the word. Everybody
Speaker 1: out there is putting it up on their big Talk,
Speaker 1: on their Instagram, and many times they're not using it correctly.
Speaker 1: And what it means is that if we cheapen or
Speaker 1: weaken this word or don't use it correct glee the
Speaker 1: people who really are being gaslighted, and gaslighting is in
Speaker 1: fact emotional abuse that can do some real psychological harm
Speaker 1: to a person that over time, what this can do
Speaker 1: to a person is really nefarious. So making it seem
Speaker 1: like it's just sort of like a lie or a
Speaker 1: disagreement or a difference of opinion is where we miss something. However,
Speaker 1: when Miriam Webster decided to make this their word of
Speaker 1: the year, it's not likely they were thinking about what
Speaker 1: was happening just in individual relationships, but what's happening in
Speaker 1: the world at large, with the media, with honestly even
Speaker 1: governments at some level, political leaders often denying the reality
Speaker 1: of people on the basis of all kinds of things,
Speaker 1: people from any kind of group that doesn't have power
Speaker 1: in society, whether that's on the basis of ethnicity or
Speaker 1: gender identity, or sexual orientation, socioeconomic status, pick something. And
Speaker 1: these groups who often don't have the same kind of
Speaker 1: societal power are the ones who are most likely to
Speaker 1: be gaslighted by the very institutions and platforms that are
Speaker 1: allegedly supposed to be telling them the truth. So all
Speaker 1: of that said, whether gas lighting is happening to you
Speaker 1: in an individual relationship with somebody you care about, or
Speaker 1: whether it's happening to you every time you look at
Speaker 1: your social media feed or every time you look at
Speaker 1: the news, for this word to have been chosen means
Speaker 1: that it's taking a toll and finally getting the notice
Speaker 1: that I actually think this phenomenon needs. But make sure
Speaker 1: that you understand it correctly. And I really want to
Speaker 1: thank all of you for listening to Navigating narcissism, and
Speaker 1: it's my pleasure for once to actually be answering everyone
Speaker 1: else's questions about this. And so now we're going to
Speaker 1: take on some of the questions that people have been
Speaker 1: sending to us all season, not just about gas lighting,
Speaker 1: but about anything else you can think about that relates
Speaker 1: to narcissism and narcissistic relationships. So in our first question,
Speaker 1: going to take on something that we actually haven't taken
Speaker 1: on in an episode of Navigating Narcissism, We're going to
Speaker 1: talk about narcissistic siblings. The person who's writing is writing
Speaker 1: about a narcissistic sister who has been taking advantage of
Speaker 1: aging parents and makes her family feel bad whenever she
Speaker 1: doesn't get her way, which is exactly what we would
Speaker 1: expect of a narcissistic person in a family system. The
Speaker 1: person who sent in this question only has this one sister,
Speaker 1: but her sister has always targeted her and turns her
Speaker 1: into a villain of every story. Her sister has a son,
Speaker 1: the only grandchild in their small family, and she uses
Speaker 1: that son as a tool and a weapon. The person
Speaker 1: asking this question wants advice on how to deal with
Speaker 1: narcissistic siblings. There are a lot of stories out there
Speaker 1: about narcissistic relationships, but not a lot on siblings, so
Speaker 1: any insight would be appreciated. I'm so glad this person
Speaker 1: sent in this question because the power of narcissistic siblings
Speaker 1: actually may represent one of the most powerful relationships and
Speaker 1: the most impactful relationships a person can have with a
Speaker 1: narcissistic person. There can be so much grief that's created
Speaker 1: by having a narcissistic sibling. There may very well have
Speaker 1: been a point in time and you can look back
Speaker 1: at old family photographs that this may very well have
Speaker 1: been someone you were sitting in the bath with or having,
Speaker 1: you know, snuggling in bedwidth or at your birthday parties
Speaker 1: and holidays. They're part of your history. And yet it's
Speaker 1: quite often the case that people who have narcissistic siblings
Speaker 1: will say, even back then, there was trouble in paradise
Speaker 1: because so many people who come from family systems where
Speaker 1: they have a narcissistic sibling will have a recollection that
Speaker 1: in some cases their sibling was frankly bullying them, may
Speaker 1: have even been manipulative, or might even have those sorts
Speaker 1: of dichotomyes where the narcissistic sibling might have been the
Speaker 1: favorite child or their golden child or something like that.
Speaker 1: But whatever those early dynamics are, when they start creeping
Speaker 1: into adulthood, things get messy. If we really fast forward
Speaker 1: to later in life when parents are getting older, there
Speaker 1: might be issues around estates, wills, trusts, or even who's
Speaker 1: going to take care of those parents. I can tell
Speaker 1: you this, A narcissistic sibling or siblings will have no
Speaker 1: problem expecting that one sibling is going to step in
Speaker 1: and do all the heavy lifting and navigation of caring
Speaker 1: for elderly parents. But when it comes time to divide
Speaker 1: the pie of an estate, I can promise you those
Speaker 1: narcissistic siblings will be the first ones at the trough.
Speaker 1: And the other thing to keep in mind, too, is
Speaker 1: that the narcissistic siblings may only start rolling around when
Speaker 1: control over a parent's affairs really starts to matter. And
Speaker 1: this is no joke. I have seen people say that
Speaker 1: they had to spend years in courts trying to fight
Speaker 1: all kinds of things and power of attorney and poor
Speaker 1: healthcare decision. This is a very, very real issue, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people soft pedal at thinking
Speaker 1: I'll deal with it when it comes. When it comes,
Speaker 1: it can actually be quite tragic. But before all of
Speaker 1: that happens, there are numerous other ways that a narcissistic
Speaker 1: sibling can show up and really be a problem for
Speaker 1: the other siblings or siblings in that system. Narcissistic siblings
Speaker 1: will continue to triangulate in the same way they did
Speaker 1: when you were little kids. They need to be the
Speaker 1: favorite child. They want to be the one who's viewed well.
Speaker 1: But that's not enough for them. They also need the
Speaker 1: other siblings to be viewed negatively. The person who wrote
Speaker 1: the question is always turned as the villain so that
Speaker 1: the narcissistic sibling can be the one that looks good.
Speaker 1: And then there's this additional wrinkle of things like grandchildren
Speaker 1: and nieces and nephews, which is not unusual for narcissistic
Speaker 1: people in a family system. Whether the narcissistic siblings or
Speaker 1: even the narcissistic siblings in law, may use children as
Speaker 1: a tool as a weapon, not only to garner validation,
Speaker 1: but also to punish people if you don't do exactly
Speaker 1: what it is they want. So the question is how
Speaker 1: do you deal with narcissistic siblings. Hate to tell you, folks,
Speaker 1: it's exactly the same way you deal with all narcissistic people.
Speaker 1: You start with basics, radical acceptance, realistic expectations. This person,
Speaker 1: this sibling, who you've known since they were a small child,
Speaker 1: is not going to change. You never want to call
Speaker 1: them out. You do not want to say you're gas
Speaker 1: lighting me. I think you're narcissistic. That's not only not
Speaker 1: going to work, it's probably going to inflame the situation.
Speaker 1: So it is about having those realistic expectations. But this
Speaker 1: goes one step further. That radical acceptance and realistic expectations
Speaker 1: has to take in your parents as well. It's not
Speaker 1: clear from this person's question whether the parents or parents
Speaker 1: are narcissistic. Does and seems so. They're not bringing that up,
Speaker 1: but they are getting older and the narcissistic sister is
Speaker 1: taking advantage of those parents. You are not going to
Speaker 1: likely be the one who converts the parents. I have
Speaker 1: worked with so many clients over the years who had
Speaker 1: a narcissistic sibling, and I'll tell you the impacts I
Speaker 1: saw were every bit as bad as I saw in
Speaker 1: peoplehood narcissistic partners. And the mistake many of them made
Speaker 1: was they went up to the parents. They didn't confront
Speaker 1: the sibling, but they went to the parents and they say, hey, sister,
Speaker 1: brother is so toxic? Is so? This is so that?
Speaker 1: And in nine times out of ten, those parents defended
Speaker 1: the toxic sibling and actually chastised the non narcissistic sibling
Speaker 1: for saying such a thing. It's not a good play,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work, and it often creates more chaos in
Speaker 1: the family system. So number one are those realistic expectations.
Speaker 1: It's not going to change. Miss person is not going
Speaker 1: to come around. And so the tool I give almost
Speaker 1: all survivors is that idea and that thing I've talked
Speaker 1: about over and over again, don't go deep. What do
Speaker 1: I mean by that? Deep stands for don't defend, don't engage,
Speaker 1: don't explain, and don't personalize. Basically, don't go deep is
Speaker 1: a fancy way of saying, don't get in the mud
Speaker 1: with them. It's not going to work. So if you
Speaker 1: do engage, or you do try to defend yourself in
Speaker 1: an argument, you certainly have every right to, but know
Speaker 1: where it's going to end up. It becomes about boundaries.
Speaker 1: But it also becomes about another concept I talked about,
Speaker 1: which is called true north. Seeing that grandchild or seeing
Speaker 1: that niece nephew, how important is that and how important
Speaker 1: is that to your parents? And how important is it
Speaker 1: to you to make that possible for your parents. I
Speaker 1: hate to say it, but it may very well be
Speaker 1: when sister rolls around with the kid, and that's something
Speaker 1: your parents want and it matters to them. You don't
Speaker 1: have to be there. There may be grief around not
Speaker 1: seeing the niece or nephew, or when they're there you
Speaker 1: just sort of listen and you don't engage. None of
Speaker 1: these are optimal solutions, I agree, and some people may
Speaker 1: go the course of sadly, I'm gonna have to lose
Speaker 1: the niece, the nephew whatever it is, and and the sister,
Speaker 1: which you might be okay with, or I'm going to
Speaker 1: grin and bear it so my parents can have the
Speaker 1: sort of illusion that they do have that family for
Speaker 1: a minute. But on a more serious note, where you
Speaker 1: really want to keep your eye on the ball is
Speaker 1: ongoing sort of planning around how your parents finances will
Speaker 1: get managed as they get older. Because your sibling is
Speaker 1: so manipulative, there is a real risk that she may
Speaker 1: be financially advantaging the situation. It's not clear to me
Speaker 1: if that's what's happening. Once again, where it gets tricky,
Speaker 1: and I've seen this happen over and over in families
Speaker 1: where the non narcissistic or healthier or more empathic sibling
Speaker 1: tries to weigh in, even tries to get the parents
Speaker 1: to speak with a trust attorney. They make sure that
Speaker 1: their resources will carry them through to the end of
Speaker 1: their lives, and the parents are often resistant to it,
Speaker 1: feeling like, oh, we don't need people mucking around in
Speaker 1: our finances. I trust you too, as my daughters, to
Speaker 1: do this, And that can be a huge mistake that
Speaker 1: you do want to make a real concerted effort to
Speaker 1: do that, because if you wait too long and one
Speaker 1: or both parents become incapacitated, your hands will be tied.
Speaker 1: But in the interim before it gets that dire, it
Speaker 1: is really about disengaging, practicing sometimes what we call low
Speaker 1: contact or what Tina Swidden, who actually was a guest
Speaker 1: on navigating narcissism, called yellow rocking, which is not just
Speaker 1: being sort of flat, but actually having a little warmth
Speaker 1: in your voice, gratitude and all the good manners that
Speaker 1: we have, but still not over engaging, and a combination
Speaker 1: of all that, which is really a rule book for
Speaker 1: how to deal with any narcissist. May get you over
Speaker 1: the hump with a sibling, but also to the person
Speaker 1: who wrote this question, be prepared acared. If you really
Speaker 1: do start detaching from your sister, you will not only
Speaker 1: likely get pushed back from your parents, but even the
Speaker 1: world at large, which still tends to view family estrangement
Speaker 1: as a fault of the person who is deciding to
Speaker 1: put boundaries up, rather than recognizing that this person was
Speaker 1: probably in a situation that was really bad for them
Speaker 1: and is making a decision to protect themselves and to
Speaker 1: have to deal with that negativity and pushback often means
Speaker 1: that tools like therapy and other supports become absolutely essential
Speaker 1: as you navigate this narcissistic situation. So thank you for sharing.
Speaker 1: None of this is easy, but I hope that you're
Speaker 1: able to find a good place to land on that
Speaker 1: feels okay for your parents, protects them in the long term,
Speaker 1: but above all else also helps you feel better in
Speaker 1: this situation. So with our next question, this person is
Speaker 1: opening up without a doubt. I've been married to an
Speaker 1: narcissist for fifteen years, so you can substitute however many
Speaker 1: years that's been for you, five, ten, fifteen, fifties, sixty,
Speaker 1: put your number in there. So this person's questions are,
Speaker 1: is divorce the only option for someone in a relationship
Speaker 1: like this? So let's take that question on first. No,
Speaker 1: it's absolutely not a hallmark of my work is to
Speaker 1: remind people that ending the relationship is just one of
Speaker 1: many options. I recognize that issues around children, finances, culture, religion,
Speaker 1: safety all play a role in how people decide on
Speaker 1: whether or not to leave these relationships. But it isn't
Speaker 1: all just that. Let's face it. I mean, for some folks,
Speaker 1: they still love the person, like the good days are
Speaker 1: really good, the sex is still really good. There's parts
Speaker 1: of this that I like, and there's parts of this
Speaker 1: that I hate, and it's so hard to reckon style.
Speaker 1: That's actually where a lot of folks in these relationships are,
Speaker 1: and yet they feel pressured to end it. Everyone said,
Speaker 1: you're supposed to leave a narcissist, not necessarily, So that's
Speaker 1: why the show is called Navigating Narcissism, not dumping narcissism,
Speaker 1: because it really is about figuring out what works in
Speaker 1: your life. There is no one size fits all, so
Speaker 1: absolutely not, divorce is not the only option. Please keep
Speaker 1: in mind, though, what I'm saying is taking into account
Speaker 1: that there is no danger physical danger in this relationship,
Speaker 1: that no one is being physically harmed or things like
Speaker 1: that are happening. Obviously in those situations, far more serious
Speaker 1: intervention needs to be happening. There's a whole slate of options,
Speaker 1: and you know what, divorce maybe an option down the road.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many folks I know who
Speaker 1: say family court is a mess. There's no way I'm
Speaker 1: doing joint custody. I need to be under the same
Speaker 1: roof as my kids. So they tough it out and
Speaker 1: their birthday present to themselves on the morning of their
Speaker 1: child's eighteenth or they is to file for divorce because
Speaker 1: no more custody issues. So people will handle this differently.
Speaker 1: Next question this person is asking is I've come to
Speaker 1: the conclusion that I cannot change him, But can I
Speaker 1: change the way I think and relate to him? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: But here's where I want to frame this. Don't make
Speaker 1: it about I'm going to make all these changes in myself.
Speaker 1: I'm going to change how I relate to him because
Speaker 1: I don't want people to maintain those cycles of self
Speaker 1: blame that are so classical in these relationships. The key
Speaker 1: is beginning from recognizing no one is going to change
Speaker 1: anyone else. But that doesn't mean you need to change
Speaker 1: who you are. If anything, what it means is start
Speaker 1: giving yourself permission to be yourself, because to be in
Speaker 1: one of these relationships is basically like being hijacked. You
Speaker 1: have to give up on you to keep that relationship afloat.
Speaker 1: So let's not do that anymore. Now you might think, well,
Speaker 1: they're not gonna like it if I'm being my real me.
Speaker 1: They're not going to like it either way, so you
Speaker 1: might as well give voice to your authentic self start
Speaker 1: working on that. That's going to cause more arguments, no
Speaker 1: two ways about it. Don't go deep, minimize your engagement,
Speaker 1: don't get in the mud, don't defend, don't engage, don't explain,
Speaker 1: but also don't personalize. Their behavior isn't about you. Anyone
Speaker 1: in this marriage of this person would be enduring what
Speaker 1: you're enduring. It's not a use thing, it's a them thing.
Speaker 1: So you can, for example, recognize that you're not going
Speaker 1: to get any emotional needs met in this relationship. You
Speaker 1: can recognize that they are completely oblivious to your needs,
Speaker 1: don't care and likely resent your needs. You're not going
Speaker 1: to get any of that met here, that nothing you
Speaker 1: do will ever feel like enough because they need what
Speaker 1: they need when they need it. And short of you
Speaker 1: waking up tomorrow morning and being a mind reader, which
Speaker 1: I'm sure you already have been quite a bit in
Speaker 1: the last fifteen years. The only way a narciss sistic
Speaker 1: relationship could ever really work is if you could read
Speaker 1: their minds anticipate their needs before they even had them,
Speaker 1: then they would think you're perfect. That is not possible,
Speaker 1: nor even if it was possible, a healthy way to
Speaker 1: go through life, because basically you're living in psychological servitude
Speaker 1: to them, and I cannot sign off on that. So
Speaker 1: it's really understanding the unchangeability, not engaging with it, starting
Speaker 1: to cultivate your own supports, and slowly and quietly starting
Speaker 1: to give permission to the authentic parts of yourself. So
Speaker 1: you're not always living in service to this person's needs
Speaker 1: because frankly, they're not noticing yours and they don't care
Speaker 1: about yours. So it's no longer letting them annex your soul.
Speaker 1: So that's the change that would have to happen. Is
Speaker 1: no longer thinking that this can improve, thinking that there
Speaker 1: is a someday better, don't future your fake yourself. So
Speaker 1: the third question this person asked, building on that, is
Speaker 1: is it possible to stay with the narcissistic person and
Speaker 1: remain healthy. My answer to that is ish many people stay.
Speaker 1: If I were to estimate and spitball number, I'd say
Speaker 1: that number is pretty close about fift of people stay.
Speaker 1: For all the reasons I have listed, can you remain healthy?
Speaker 1: And the reason I say ish is if you can
Speaker 1: really ratchet your expectations, have that deep acceptance, grieve the
Speaker 1: loss of what you know, recognizing that you're not going
Speaker 1: to have a really connected, deep marriage, and the loss
Speaker 1: of what that would be. Thinking of this life would
Speaker 1: have been different with a different kind of marriage. You
Speaker 1: just have to work that through. In the long term,
Speaker 1: living with someone who never sees you, who never notices you,
Speaker 1: who does not have empathy for you, you're on a
Speaker 1: roller coaster of good, bad, up, down, sad, mad glad
Speaker 1: kind of stuff that is not good for anyone in
Speaker 1: the long term. It's almost like living with a smoker.
Speaker 1: You're not going to die of lung cancer on day two,
Speaker 1: but the accumulation of that over time, that second hand
Speaker 1: smoke is going to make you sick. And so I
Speaker 1: think that you can do things to up the probability
Speaker 1: that you remain healthy again above all else, if you
Speaker 1: do only one thing, that one thing is to cultivate
Speaker 1: social support, have friends, be in therapy, be in a
Speaker 1: support group, be in a class, anything where you have
Speaker 1: voices in your life that are not gas lighting you,
Speaker 1: that do see you, that you have relationships that are
Speaker 1: reciprocal and compassionate and respectful. Those can be a hedge
Speaker 1: against what is happening in your marriage. And I have
Speaker 1: seen people who have actually really made a pretty healthy
Speaker 1: horse race of it. But it requires doing, and that's work.
Speaker 1: Once we get to a certain age, making friends gets harder,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't make it any less important. You need
Speaker 1: to do it. And then having routines touchstones that you have,
Speaker 1: whether it's a walk you take each day or a
Speaker 1: meditation you do each day. In meditation and mindfulness work
Speaker 1: can also be quite useful, as well as using your
Speaker 1: breath as a way to sort of self suze throughout
Speaker 1: the day. Practicing self compassion is huge because we internalize
Speaker 1: their toxic voices and talk to ourselves in a very
Speaker 1: self judgmental way. Finding ways to practice self kindness and
Speaker 1: feel less isolated and not let the thoughts that, oh
Speaker 1: my god, this is my life, this is wretched, not
Speaker 1: let that overwhelm us. All of those things Practicing that
Speaker 1: sort of self compassion in many different ways can also
Speaker 1: be a piece that allows you to be healthier. I
Speaker 1: can't sugarcoat it. Staying in a relationship like this will
Speaker 1: take a toll, but there are things you can do
Speaker 1: to really act as a hedge and they'll go a
Speaker 1: long way to helping you feel quite a bit more
Speaker 1: sane in one of these relationships. And then the last question,
Speaker 1: and I think many people listening will resonate to this
Speaker 1: last question. Does it make me unhealthy to even consider
Speaker 1: staying with someone that I know is toxic? It really
Speaker 1: requires a careful analysis and a deep dive, ideally with
Speaker 1: a therapist, but you know, with even if it's on
Speaker 1: your own or with a really really skilled listening friend.
Speaker 1: Is what is your why? Why are you staying in
Speaker 1: this relationship? Is this about you believing you're going to
Speaker 1: be able to change this person? Is this about future
Speaker 1: faking when they retire, when we move, when we have
Speaker 1: more money, when this, when that, those are concerns. If
Speaker 1: it's a belief that you're going to go to therapy
Speaker 1: and that because of how you change, it's going to
Speaker 1: make the relationship better. Any decision that's based on an
Speaker 1: idea that the relations and chip itself it's going to
Speaker 1: improve is a risky way to make the decision to stay,
Speaker 1: because it's it's a bad bet. But if you really
Speaker 1: do do the critical analysis, and many people have, they
Speaker 1: have said things like I have now looked at and
Speaker 1: I'm seeing how family court is running. A person might,
Speaker 1: for example, have a child with special needs and saying,
Speaker 1: now this just child and their routines, I need to
Speaker 1: oversee this, or someone else maybe saying that by living
Speaker 1: in an expensive city, that's a big one. For most
Speaker 1: people of normal means, the idea of securing a second
Speaker 1: residence just doesn't work. So they say, Okay, we're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to do that, so I'm going
Speaker 1: to have to figure out something here, because it could
Speaker 1: have again ramifications for living, custody, commuting, all kinds of
Speaker 1: stuff like that. So there are practical things there. If
Speaker 1: it's coming down to practicalities and you're being very honest
Speaker 1: with yourself and it's not because you think some magical
Speaker 1: relationship ferry is going to come floating in and making
Speaker 1: it all better, then I don't think it's unhealthy to
Speaker 1: consider staying. And that kind of self judgment can often
Speaker 1: lead survivors to shame themselves when they stay. It just
Speaker 1: requires you being honest and open and realistic with yourself
Speaker 1: as well. I know a lot of people grapple with this.
Speaker 1: Leaving and divorcing is not the only option. It is
Speaker 1: to some and even then folks, and even then to
Speaker 1: this person, post separation abuse is real. Again. Tina Swidden,
Speaker 1: who was on this podcast, talked about post separation abuse
Speaker 1: what happens when the relationship ends, and that's its own
Speaker 1: form of problems. Over and over on navigating narcissism, I've
Speaker 1: talked about this idea that just because the relationship ends
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that the problems do. And so making choices
Speaker 1: for yourself without judging yourself and saying, what kind of
Speaker 1: fool stay is married to a narcissistic person. So many
Speaker 1: millions of people that I would never called fools make
Speaker 1: that choice. The key is to make that choice with
Speaker 1: your eyes wide open. One of the things I do
Speaker 1: observe is that when people decide to stay in these marriages,
Speaker 1: and they do it with radical acceptance and realistic expect
Speaker 1: nations and disengage and low contact and build up their
Speaker 1: own supports, something happens organically where the person would have
Speaker 1: thought five years before divorce would have been impossible by
Speaker 1: actually giving themselves permission to see the relationship clearly, no
Speaker 1: longer playing the gas lighted future fake. Maybe someday, maybe
Speaker 1: this will happen if I try this, and on and
Speaker 1: on in a self blame. Once that gets lifted and
Speaker 1: you see it for what it is, it's like in
Speaker 1: that harsh, glaring light, you can't unsee it. And some
Speaker 1: people will say, you know what, I spent three, four
Speaker 1: or five ten years fortifying myself seeing it clearly, and
Speaker 1: when I couldn't unsee it anymore, divorce started feeling like
Speaker 1: a viable option, and they found themselves leaving, but not
Speaker 1: nearly as quickly as they thought. So keep in mind
Speaker 1: that this is an evolving process. You don't know how
Speaker 1: it's going to go. You may end up leaving, you
Speaker 1: may not. But any decision that is focused on your growth,
Speaker 1: on your authenticity, on your self compassion, and above all else,
Speaker 1: on your individualtion, on your separating from this person, not
Speaker 1: getting your identity from their happiness, but from your own,
Speaker 1: that's a winner. Anytime. Thank you for your question. We
Speaker 1: will be right back with my answers to your questions.
Speaker 1: In this next question, this person asks a very brief question,
Speaker 1: but I think it's one that many people ask about,
Speaker 1: and it's something we haven't actually covered in navigating narcissism,
Speaker 1: which is have you dealt with addicts that displayed traits
Speaker 1: of narcissism and is this common in people living with addiction?
Speaker 1: And the answer to that is yes. Addiction and narcissism
Speaker 1: share a lot of commonalities. There is a lot of denial, rationalization, justification,
Speaker 1: blame shifting, distorted or minimal empathy, egocentricity, selfishness, as it were, entitlement.
Speaker 1: All of those things we see in addiction, we also
Speaker 1: see them in narcissism. Now, not every addict is narcissistic,
Speaker 1: and obviously not every narcissistic person is an addict. What
Speaker 1: I've witnessed is and sometimes we won't even fully get
Speaker 1: it until the person stops using. And where I've seen
Speaker 1: it is where a family will have a family member
Speaker 1: who's struggling with addiction, living with addiction, and then that
Speaker 1: family member goes to rehab and they get treated, and
Speaker 1: some weeks later they come home sober and they'll say,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this person still does not have empathy,
Speaker 1: and they're really entitled, and they're still really mean. And
Speaker 1: the family will say, what, we thought that when they
Speaker 1: stopped using, they're going to become more self aware and
Speaker 1: more capable of empathy. It's not even like they thought
Speaker 1: they'd come home and be a sweetheart. But in many ways,
Speaker 1: the very things, the very elements of that toxic personality,
Speaker 1: they remain toxic. But the family thought it was the addiction,
Speaker 1: and that's when we know we're dealing with that overlay.
Speaker 1: The people in the treatment facility would have noticed the
Speaker 1: same that these are often clients that are really difficult
Speaker 1: to engage in treatment, who are often quite dismissive, quite contemptuous,
Speaker 1: and all of that. So that's actually a really painful
Speaker 1: wake up call for these families and who may also
Speaker 1: see it because as we know, with addiction, it is
Speaker 1: a disease, and in there may be periods where there
Speaker 1: might be periods of less use, and in a person
Speaker 1: who is an addict but doesn't have the co occurring narcissism,
Speaker 1: in those periods of clarity, you will actually see someone
Speaker 1: who like they're they're they're still in there. It's the
Speaker 1: damn drugs and alcohol. But for people who are narcissistic
Speaker 1: and have co occurring addiction, what you might see is
Speaker 1: you might see some shifts in behavior, but the things
Speaker 1: that remain constant the entitlement, the lack of empathy, the
Speaker 1: lack of self reflective capacity, then diminish self awareness, the
Speaker 1: control all of that, the need for dominance. That's never
Speaker 1: to go away from my chair. From a treatment perspective,
Speaker 1: and when I've worked with addiction medicine, physicians and etcetera
Speaker 1: on this issue, it makes treatment trickier. And what we
Speaker 1: see is that there may be a greater likelihood of relapse.
Speaker 1: And we see this in particular when a person is
Speaker 1: a vulnerable narcissist and more of the resentful, sullen, grievance
Speaker 1: filled angry at the world narcissism, those folks are more
Speaker 1: likely to relapse. And because you've got to remember narcissism
Speaker 1: is at its core, there's a challenge with regulation. They
Speaker 1: cannot manage emotion. The upwelling of negative emotions for lots
Speaker 1: of narcissistic people brings up a lot of shame. Well,
Speaker 1: you want to know one way to get rid of
Speaker 1: a feeling of shame numb it, and there are no
Speaker 1: faster way to numbin emotion than drugs and alcohol. So
Speaker 1: the drugs either active, numb it soothed, push it down
Speaker 1: like a substance that's more of a depressant like alcohol,
Speaker 1: or become a way to pump up that grandiosity like
Speaker 1: you'd see with the stimulant like cocaine, when a person
Speaker 1: is even more jazzed up and really feel like they're
Speaker 1: the king of the world. So drugs and alcohol will
Speaker 1: interact with narcissism in a way to sort of enhance regulation,
Speaker 1: and then that youth can spiral out of control. In
Speaker 1: my work with clients who have co occurring narcissism and
Speaker 1: addiction and men, I tell you it was a wild ride.
Speaker 1: It was like it was like it was like riding
Speaker 1: a bull on cocaine, quite frankly, because it was just
Speaker 1: it was a ride that would never end. We were
Speaker 1: either managing the crisis around the narcissism and the relational
Speaker 1: disruptions and all of that, or we were managing the
Speaker 1: crisis of a relapse, or we were managing the crisis
Speaker 1: of addiction. And I was just a shrink. You can
Speaker 1: imagine what this must be like for family members, and
Speaker 1: it can make relationships really difficult. It can even make
Speaker 1: it can make recovery a complicated space. We talked with
Speaker 1: somebody who had a spouse with a lot of narcissistic
Speaker 1: characteristics who was living with an addiction, and what she
Speaker 1: had observed was that he even turned his recovery as
Speaker 1: a way to get validation. And that's also not unusual
Speaker 1: that we would see somebody who uses twelve step more
Speaker 1: as a place to get validation rather than what it's
Speaker 1: meant to be, which is really a place of humility
Speaker 1: and a place to really commit to who a person
Speaker 1: needs to be to recover, to make this a daily practice,
Speaker 1: a commitment and recognize that there's something much bigger running
Speaker 1: the show. That's really hard for a narcissistic person. But
Speaker 1: we do sometimes see the risk of performative recovery where
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person will sort of seemingly be committed to
Speaker 1: recovery more to get validation than really in the hard
Speaker 1: work of recovery. But for me is as a therapist,
Speaker 1: it's like whatever I can harness to keep this person
Speaker 1: from using all often use. So when I've been working
Speaker 1: with a narcissistic clients who also are living with addiction.
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, if the validation seeking what's keeping them
Speaker 1: sober for now, I'm going to work with that that
Speaker 1: We'll deal with the narcissism in a minute. But the
Speaker 1: narcissism never goes away. So I thank you for that
Speaker 1: question because it is a really important overlap in one
Speaker 1: that we still don't fully understand well. So in our
Speaker 1: next question, we'll be talking about religious trauma. This person
Speaker 1: is working to untangle religious trauma that they've endured from
Speaker 1: the church. They realized that the church, this organized system
Speaker 1: of the church, they feel it functions in a narcissistic way.
Speaker 1: They then like, in this religious system to a cult.
Speaker 1: They say, I can't explain it, but it feels like
Speaker 1: I was raised in a cult. The gas lighting, invalidation, control, isolation, shame,
Speaker 1: and the rage and threat of being discarded when you
Speaker 1: were out of line. Even though my church wasn't headed
Speaker 1: by a single charismatic leader, the movement and the denomination
Speaker 1: is charismatic and grandiose. They taught us that we were
Speaker 1: the only ones that were right and going to heaven
Speaker 1: because of our specific brand of faith, and they were
Speaker 1: not pleased about this. This person says, it's all b Yes,
Speaker 1: I no longer believe that God will judge you based
Speaker 1: on how little you sinned, but rather how you treated
Speaker 1: those you gain power over. I don't believe in eternal
Speaker 1: condemnation either anymore, as far as I care. It's a
Speaker 1: fear tactic to keep people in line. So this person's
Speaker 1: question really is well, they have two questions. One is
Speaker 1: how did the church sort of prime us to become narcissistic. Supply,
Speaker 1: churches have an advantage, not just churches, All religious communities
Speaker 1: have an advantage. Right, People who walk into religious communities
Speaker 1: are making the assumption that these are communities that are
Speaker 1: organized around good, that are organized around God, and we
Speaker 1: make assumptions that God is beneficent and God is good.
Speaker 1: I would have to believe that a god, any God,
Speaker 1: would be not anti narcissistic, because I do believe that
Speaker 1: God would love everyone, but wouldn't judge people on their
Speaker 1: sins and rather on their goodness. A church, though, is
Speaker 1: a human engineered organization, and as a result, it's going
Speaker 1: to be vulnerable to all the problems an organization has triangulation, chaos,
Speaker 1: power struggles, domination, all the things, and and yet the
Speaker 1: problem is people go in in many ways without their
Speaker 1: suspicion meters on because this is a house of God,
Speaker 1: you know, the problem is is that God is an
Speaker 1: always present at the meetings to call out the toxic bs,
Speaker 1: and so those people who anoint themselves as the carriers,
Speaker 1: as the vessels of God, there's something the little grandiose
Speaker 1: about that. From the jump right, one would actually argue
Speaker 1: that God probably resides in the most ordinary amongst us,
Speaker 1: and not the person who's wearing a shiny suit and
Speaker 1: driving a fancy car. So churches are very much and
Speaker 1: again all religious communities, not just churches, pick a religion,
Speaker 1: pickets denomination. People are at their most vulnerable going in
Speaker 1: because they're not only vulnerable, but their trust is almost absolute.
Speaker 1: So once toxic systems are in play, the challenge then
Speaker 1: becomes is you may have narcissistic players, but then you'll
Speaker 1: have tons and tons of enablers who effectively become the flock.
Speaker 1: So anybody who wants to individuate and be their own
Speaker 1: person within such a system is going to be pathologized.
Speaker 1: And any church that doesn't hold space for individuation, for
Speaker 1: people being their true selves. That's already an unhealthy organization psychologically,
Speaker 1: psychological growth comes for holding space for people where they
Speaker 1: are at, not where we want them to be. And
Speaker 1: so that unwillingness to let people be themselves, which many
Speaker 1: religious communities are are guilty of, is something that is
Speaker 1: almost a set up for many religious communities to start
Speaker 1: becoming quite toxic. So in that way, a church primes
Speaker 1: people to become narcissistic supply, because churches are often places
Speaker 1: of obedience, duty, and obligation, and so it's it's in essence,
Speaker 1: it becomes a form of social control. And people who
Speaker 1: have their own independent relationships with God, with religion, with
Speaker 1: whatever higher power and spiritual force out there that they
Speaker 1: interact with, that private relationship is often their most intimate relationship,
Speaker 1: and that what happens in the church is something that's
Speaker 1: much more organized and curated. It's not going to be
Speaker 1: as honest. And yet those organizations often don't necessarily enhance
Speaker 1: that personal relationship a person has with their God or
Speaker 1: with their higher spiritual power, but rather they want to
Speaker 1: all run through that religious community. Not all religious communities
Speaker 1: are like this, by the way, Some are quite collaborative
Speaker 1: and cooperative and actually joined together in that way. But
Speaker 1: unfortunately it happens all too often because some people have
Speaker 1: too much power and the trust is too absolute, which
Speaker 1: can all you need is one toxic player in that system,
Speaker 1: and the entire system could actually easily be contaminated. The
Speaker 1: other question, though, this person asks, is how does a
Speaker 1: narcissistic person maintain a relationship with God or with any deity?
Speaker 1: And I found this to be a fascinating question. I
Speaker 1: had to sit with this one for a minute, and
Speaker 1: I have to tell you, I actually think it would
Speaker 1: be a very grandiose relationship. And what happens is narcissistic
Speaker 1: people tend to seek out other people that they perceive
Speaker 1: to be high status, and they get narcissistic supply from
Speaker 1: hanging out with people they perceive to be high status.
Speaker 1: So that's why they'll often dump friends if they start
Speaker 1: hanging with somebody who's more connected or has more money
Speaker 1: or something like that. But what gets really interesting is
Speaker 1: that when you think about God, like, I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the hottest sticking in the room, right, So of God
Speaker 1: your best friend? You know. That's so in a way,
Speaker 1: I think that many narcissistic folks are going to believe
Speaker 1: that the relationship that they have with a deity, that
Speaker 1: they have with a higher power, that they have with
Speaker 1: God is better than everybody else's relationship. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: by the way I know God more, God returns my
Speaker 1: text kind of thing. And so you really can get
Speaker 1: into this perverse place where they think they've like God's
Speaker 1: their homie kind of thing, like they've they've got it
Speaker 1: all worked out, and you're not. You, of course, are
Speaker 1: not as close to God or higher Power as them,
Speaker 1: And that's where we start getting into the really dangerous
Speaker 1: spaces of spiritual narcissism, where narcissistic people will claim to
Speaker 1: be more spiritually evolved, more holy, more connected to the
Speaker 1: voice of God, more connected to the spirit than everyone
Speaker 1: else because they've been chosen. I think it's really grandiose
Speaker 1: to think that one person has chosen. I think the
Speaker 1: whole idea of a healthy God is that God to
Speaker 1: egalitarian and chooses everyone. So I think that that's what
Speaker 1: a narcissistic person's relationship often is with a spiritual force,
Speaker 1: is that their relationship is better than anyone else's. So
Speaker 1: it's got all the narcissistic flair, the entitlement, the arrogance
Speaker 1: and basically God likes me better, so it's not going
Speaker 1: to be a healthy relationship, and they're often going to
Speaker 1: weaponize that spiritual relationship and hold it over others and
Speaker 1: make the argument that I have a closer relationship with
Speaker 1: whatever the spiritual forces than you ergo. I'm better. So
Speaker 1: even in spaces that should be clean, spiritual, and holy,
Speaker 1: somehow toxic relationships managed to mess them up. So thanks
Speaker 1: for that question. My session will continue with my answer
Speaker 1: to your questions after this break. I'm a PhD candidate
Speaker 1: with an emotionally abusive supervisor. Chronic gas lighting, blame shifting, lies, threats, discrimination,
Speaker 1: future faking, all of it. This person wanted to reach
Speaker 1: out and ask me, Dr Romany, would you be willing
Speaker 1: to speak about narcissism and academia. Oh? Yes, I would.
Speaker 1: I have seen several high caliber students being victimized by
Speaker 1: my supervisor, and it's heartbreaking to see the toll it
Speaker 1: takes on their self worth and career aspirations, as well
Speaker 1: as their physical and mental health. I've known the abusive
Speaker 1: supervisor for nine years, worked directly with her for seven years.
Speaker 1: The patterns are consistent. Students before me were abused. I've
Speaker 1: experienced similar forms of abuse, and students younger than me
Speaker 1: continue to be abused, but there appears to be no
Speaker 1: help available. She has known in the department as controlling
Speaker 1: and shady, but that's about it. Nobody seems to care
Speaker 1: that her actions have very real and lasting consequences for
Speaker 1: her victims. Do you have any recommendations or advice for
Speaker 1: graduate students in my position? So let me begin with
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry for you, and I know this better
Speaker 1: than you would think. When I read this question, this
Speaker 1: is one of the ones I actually kind of felt
Speaker 1: in my chest because I know what this can do
Speaker 1: to a career for anyone, and so early in the game.
Speaker 1: So I'm going to be a downer for a minute,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna be a downer for a specific reason.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna really be a therapist for a minute.
Speaker 1: I mean to sit here and tell you there's a
Speaker 1: lot less to do about this than you think, which
Speaker 1: isn't good to hear. But there's a reason I'm saying that,
Speaker 1: because if I sat here and play a little miss
Speaker 1: let's try this, and let's try that, I'd be taking
Speaker 1: you down a treacherous garden path which could actually hurt
Speaker 1: your career before it even begin. And the reason I
Speaker 1: say that is more than anything else to be validating,
Speaker 1: because it can be really frustrating to believe that there
Speaker 1: is something to be done. You try to do those things,
Speaker 1: not only does nothing happen, but you end up finding
Speaker 1: out that you might have put yourself in harm's way.
Speaker 1: So let's break it down a little bit. What you
Speaker 1: describe is a real example of sort of intergenerational institutional abuse,
Speaker 1: and academia is unique for this. For those of you
Speaker 1: listening who don't work in university settings, university settings are
Speaker 1: incredibly unique and how difficult it is to remove somebody
Speaker 1: who holds something called tenure from their positions. Once a
Speaker 1: person gets tenure, they get a very unique form of
Speaker 1: job security. Now there's a wonderful thing about that, because
Speaker 1: back in the day, tenure was designed so people could
Speaker 1: openly speak their minds and not feared that they were
Speaker 1: going to lose their job through some form of retribution.
Speaker 1: Though I have to say even that star to change
Speaker 1: in academia. But secondarily it just sort of protected people
Speaker 1: in those roles. But the problem is that kind of
Speaker 1: you can't touch me nous when it is held by
Speaker 1: a person who has a narcissistic or antagonistic style, is
Speaker 1: a disaster because what it means is that students in
Speaker 1: these models, students, fellows, residents, whomever is training like this
Speaker 1: are viewed as disposable because you're going to come and go.
Speaker 1: But that person, who they know damn well they cannot
Speaker 1: get rid of without a huge legal battle. Would rather
Speaker 1: hope and hold their breath that the students just going
Speaker 1: to move on, then take on the task of removing
Speaker 1: that person. And if that professor is a hot shot
Speaker 1: bringing in grant money, publishing science, forget it. The probability
Speaker 1: of seeing any movement in this is really really low.
Speaker 1: In the interim, I'm here to validate you and say
Speaker 1: I have no doubt a harm this is causing you.
Speaker 1: How difficult it is, the eggshells you walk on just
Speaker 1: to be able. It's already hard enough to be a
Speaker 1: graduate student. It's ten times harder when you're having to
Speaker 1: do this with so much anxiety. I would say, glean
Speaker 1: support without it being gossipy. It doesn't have to be.
Speaker 1: Let's all go talk badly about this supervisor. But one
Speaker 1: place that can be useful is being there for each other.
Speaker 1: There's actually some really interesting research that was written about,
Speaker 1: I believe, in the Harvard Business Review, and what they
Speaker 1: were talking about is that when people have to work
Speaker 1: under conditions of working with someone really awful like your supervisor,
Speaker 1: that you can see that these really tight and healthy
Speaker 1: alliances can form between the people who are stuck working there,
Speaker 1: and through all that support, they may actually generate some
Speaker 1: really interesting ideas, be much stronger supports for each other,
Speaker 1: and create a really special place. As someone firsthand who
Speaker 1: has had this happen, being in really toxic academic settings
Speaker 1: but ended up making some incredibly important alliances that decades
Speaker 1: later remain important to me, I know how that works.
Speaker 1: I see it happen, and it can really result in
Speaker 1: some amazing things. That's number one. Number two. As soon
Speaker 1: as you can get a position away from this person,
Speaker 1: do it. It's not going to change, So it often
Speaker 1: means you need to leave, and that sometimes means taking
Speaker 1: a position in a less prestigious institution. It may mean
Speaker 1: changing some of your research focus or your teaching focus
Speaker 1: or whatever it is, but because that's not likely to change,
Speaker 1: hanging around longer no different than in any kind of
Speaker 1: narcissistic relationship. Not only are things not going to get better,
Speaker 1: it means that ten years down the road, you're going
Speaker 1: to look backwards and say I should have gotten out
Speaker 1: ten years ago because I could see how this was
Speaker 1: never going to change. The next thing you want to
Speaker 1: keep in mind is document everything, and I mean everything.
Speaker 1: It's almost becomes its own part time job because if
Speaker 1: you ever do, you decide to pursue something. Human resource
Speaker 1: departments anywhere, and particularly in university settings, are notorious for
Speaker 1: moving glacially again knowing the restrictions tenure puts on them
Speaker 1: to do anything. By documentation, I also mean emails, any
Speaker 1: other form of inappropriate communication that's come your way, much
Speaker 1: more detailed minutes of meetings, whatever you can bring, if
Speaker 1: you decide to pursue it, you will need that documentation.
Speaker 1: That documentation also serves a secondary function because it conserved
Speaker 1: to validate you to say, Okay, my journal five years
Speaker 1: ago was saying the same thing. Now, this is not
Speaker 1: going to change. Because to the last part of your
Speaker 1: question that nobody seems to care that her actions have
Speaker 1: very real and lasting consequences, You're absolutely right. Most people
Speaker 1: in the system don't care Sadly, many people in these
Speaker 1: kinds of employment settings almost view this as a bit
Speaker 1: of a hazing ritual. We are seeing some bits of
Speaker 1: change here and there. I do think that the Me
Speaker 1: Too movement may have put a little bit more attention
Speaker 1: on workplace abuses, but since so much of Me Too
Speaker 1: was really focused almost solely on sexual harassment, it actually
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily extend to the other kinds of abuses you
Speaker 1: talk about, which your psychological abuses that really harm people
Speaker 1: at developmental stages in their career. But I know how
Speaker 1: real this is, and I have to say, having lived
Speaker 1: through some things like this that were similar, I remember
Speaker 1: when I got to that juncture in my career and
Speaker 1: I was in a very traditional academic career, and I
Speaker 1: remember looking down that pathway and saying, you're either going
Speaker 1: to stick this out and maybe find out that this
Speaker 1: isn't gonna work out, or you're just going to make
Speaker 1: the leap. And I made the leap. And it was
Speaker 1: a very interesting leap because it it harmed and even
Speaker 1: distorted my career in some ways, but it got me
Speaker 1: away from the problematic person. But what was fascinating is
Speaker 1: that many years later I talked to people who stayed
Speaker 1: in the position and things were exactly the same. So
Speaker 1: my my prediction was actually spot on, and I can
Speaker 1: almost promise you the same in your situation. So get
Speaker 1: that support from others, be a mentor for those who
Speaker 1: might be more junior, and consider figuring out what your
Speaker 1: escape looks like as soon as you can, because then
Speaker 1: you can be the next generation of academic that's not
Speaker 1: doing this to others. But in the interim, this one
Speaker 1: is not going to be easy, and I really do
Speaker 1: wish you luck because we need your scholarship. We need
Speaker 1: the scholarship of sane people because the problem is in
Speaker 1: academia almost more than many other spaces, it's the toxic,
Speaker 1: narcissistic people who too often kind of over occupy the
Speaker 1: air waves because I think in some ways they just
Speaker 1: act like bullies with PhD s, and that often gives
Speaker 1: them a legitimized voice, and that a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't pay attention to the students because like I said,
Speaker 1: they think you're coming and going, and that damn tenure,
Speaker 1: while it's so important, it can really really keep some
Speaker 1: really antagonistic people having too much power for too long.
Speaker 1: So thanks again and good luck and I hope your
Speaker 1: degree in your training goes really smoothly. So in this
Speaker 1: next question, this is actually something really important because I
Speaker 1: don't believe we really tackled this in navigating narcissism, so
Speaker 1: it's a great one for us to unpack. Here, this
Speaker 1: person is asking, I'm wondering if you have thoughts on
Speaker 1: selective narcissism. I've heard this used to describe people who
Speaker 1: seem to be generally empathic but then don't show any
Speaker 1: empathy for lgbt Q plus people or BIPOC people are
Speaker 1: people of color, for example. I've wondered about this because
Speaker 1: I'm queer myself, and I don't understand the lack of
Speaker 1: empathy that my parents have shown. I try very hard
Speaker 1: to be understanding about the fact that they grew up
Speaker 1: in a different time with different expectations, and that they
Speaker 1: never expected to have a queer child, But no matter
Speaker 1: how gently I try to talk to them about it,
Speaker 1: nothing seems to help. I try to tell them that
Speaker 1: the way that they have spoken about queer people my
Speaker 1: whole life has had a really painful impact on me,
Speaker 1: and they either yell at me, saying, how dare you
Speaker 1: say that to me? We've done nothing but love you,
Speaker 1: or they laugh and scoff saying, please stop exaggerating, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: So on this question, I'm going to start, first of
Speaker 1: all to say, you know, thank you for sitting in
Speaker 1: such a vulnerable question, because what's being voiced here is
Speaker 1: something that generations of people have experienced and still continue
Speaker 1: to experience, and it is it's devastating because we still
Speaker 1: very much live in a world of bias. So let's
Speaker 1: start with the selective narcissism, because I actually don't know
Speaker 1: if I agree with this term. I believe that somebody
Speaker 1: who's generally empathetic and then carries an unempathetic stance about
Speaker 1: an entire group of people is not empathic. They're not
Speaker 1: because the ability to dismiss an entire group of people
Speaker 1: merely based on a singular care acteristic you're queer, your black,
Speaker 1: whatever it may be, that's not empathy. So that to
Speaker 1: me is showing a failure in empathy. And then it
Speaker 1: shows me that there may be they may have good manners,
Speaker 1: and I think we make a real mistake of confusing
Speaker 1: manners and empathy. That they may be able to keep
Speaker 1: it together with certain groups because they feel validated because
Speaker 1: they're amongst people like them. But I I've got to
Speaker 1: tell you to me, racism and narcissism, and genderism and
Speaker 1: heterosexism and narcissism are highly highly associated. So I don't
Speaker 1: think it's selective narcissism. I think it's a very narcissistic approach. Again,
Speaker 1: when you're able to eliminate an entire group of people
Speaker 1: on the basis of a bias, that's just me. I
Speaker 1: am sure there are people out there who would take
Speaker 1: me to task on that, but that's what I believe.
Speaker 1: Now you're bringing this though to the level of your family,
Speaker 1: that becomes an entirely different kind of experience, because while
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that any of us could fully under
Speaker 1: stand why there's discrimination and bias in the world, we
Speaker 1: can sometimes feel a slight step removed from it, were
Speaker 1: hurt by it, were harmed by it. But it's not
Speaker 1: the same as the people who care about us. We're
Speaker 1: supposed to care about us. The things that this person
Speaker 1: says in their question, that when a person is showing
Speaker 1: up and in a very vulnerable way saying the things
Speaker 1: you're saying are hurting me, so are sharing a feeling
Speaker 1: the push back is how dare you share your emotion
Speaker 1: then gas lighting them, We've always loved you. Clearly, this
Speaker 1: person doesn't feel loved because they have been basically invalidated
Speaker 1: on the basis of being queer. And they laugh and
Speaker 1: scoff and say, stop exaggerating, that's ridiculous, more gas lighting.
Speaker 1: I think this has happened for many people. It is
Speaker 1: part of their process of coming out. They had one
Speaker 1: belief about their family. They suspected that coming out would
Speaker 1: be difficult, that process of coming out is difficult, and
Speaker 1: that fear is infirmed. I think that when a person
Speaker 1: is queer and grows up in a family where they
Speaker 1: know it will be difficult, they've already had to do
Speaker 1: so much justifying and shape shifting because of that fear,
Speaker 1: because of knowing that they would be rejected if they
Speaker 1: came out, And then after coming out, the family then
Speaker 1: continues to reject, but then doubles down even more, continues
Speaker 1: to gaslight. Gaslighters. Don't just start gaslighting one day, that's
Speaker 1: what gaslighters gaslight. There like scorpion scorpions thaying gaslighters gaslight.
Speaker 1: It's just how it goes, and so they were likely
Speaker 1: gaslighting you all along, so here to be rejected on
Speaker 1: the basis of simply who we are, okay, whether it's queer,
Speaker 1: whether it's being a person of color, whether it's race,
Speaker 1: what it's a rejection of who we are. These are
Speaker 1: not choices as we make they are who we are
Speaker 1: to me is the ultimate invalidation. To have it happen
Speaker 1: with a family member is absolutely devastating. The uphill climb
Speaker 1: that this kind of question reveals is then not only
Speaker 1: having to deal with a toxic family, but a recognition
Speaker 1: that many times these beliefs, especially when they're being presented
Speaker 1: in this cruel, gas lighted way, are like concrete and
Speaker 1: almost impossible to move in all of the questions we've
Speaker 1: been taking on. Therapy is often an essential ingredient towards healing.
Speaker 1: In a situation like this one, it's absolutely essential not
Speaker 1: only therapy, but therapy with a therapist who is really
Speaker 1: aware of the dynamics and issues around coming out, especially
Speaker 1: when there is toxic pushback in the face of it.
Speaker 1: We live in a world characterized by discrimination and bias
Speaker 1: and gas lighting on the daily, and that is why
Speaker 1: all of us, unwittingly are in a relationship with the
Speaker 1: narcissistem and we didn't even know it. It's just basically
Speaker 1: the world at large. When this trickles into your family system,
Speaker 1: it's all the usual rules of managing narcissistic relationships. What
Speaker 1: this person did, they did something I called going into
Speaker 1: the tiger's cage. This person expressed a very real need,
Speaker 1: a very real emotion to someone close to them, in
Speaker 1: this case their family, and said, the way you've spoken
Speaker 1: about queer people has hurt me. It's been painful. I
Speaker 1: always say it's I call it the tiger's cages. You
Speaker 1: can go into the tiger's cage. Odds are what's going
Speaker 1: to happen is the tiger is going to tear your
Speaker 1: throat out. Right. Every so often, you might be wrong.
Speaker 1: You go on the tiger's cage. You're like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: actually just a cat. But if it's a tiger, you're
Speaker 1: gonna get hurt. And maybe you sometimes go into that
Speaker 1: cage to find out if it really is a tiger,
Speaker 1: and then word of advice, don't go back into the
Speaker 1: damn cage again. This person went into the cage and
Speaker 1: what they saw there's something painful that is not likely
Speaker 1: to change it is not your job to educate your
Speaker 1: parents on this issue. You've done your best, and to
Speaker 1: keep doing that may very well comment harm to you
Speaker 1: to your own mental health to keep doing that. It's
Speaker 1: very personal to you on how you would choose to
Speaker 1: integrate your family into your life going forward. Some people
Speaker 1: would say I'm done and really put their focus on
Speaker 1: chosen family, recognizing what the journey was and grieving the
Speaker 1: loss of family, which for any of us to know
Speaker 1: that was not an unconditionally loving space is utterly devastating.
Speaker 1: If you choose to maintain contact with your family, then
Speaker 1: it's done with in a way that is informed by
Speaker 1: the fact that they are invalidating you that it's not
Speaker 1: going to change. To keep realistic expectations, to really think
Speaker 1: about whether you'd want to bring a partner into that
Speaker 1: circumstance where they are going to hear that critique. Some
Speaker 1: people say, my partner and I are on the same page.
Speaker 1: They're willing to come in. I was actually just with
Speaker 1: a gay couple recently, two men, and they were sharing
Speaker 1: stories about family of origin, and they knew exactly what
Speaker 1: their dealing with a part It's like, I love them,
Speaker 1: we know what we're dealing with they go in together,
Speaker 1: and so that's that's a very personal choice and that
Speaker 1: one that you need to work through. But the key
Speaker 1: work for you it's again not going deep, not defending,
Speaker 1: not engaging, not explaining, and not personalizing. This is their bias.
Speaker 1: Don't let it at all diminish your brightness, your journey
Speaker 1: and who you really are, because that's what they're doing,
Speaker 1: is they're negating who you really are. But this becomes
Speaker 1: the work of therapy to recognize how often you were
Speaker 1: overtly shamed your entire life for who you are. That
Speaker 1: is a very very heavy wound to carry. Unpacking that
Speaker 1: and therapy becomes essential as part of your journey of
Speaker 1: individuation and then deciding how it works for you to
Speaker 1: fit your family into your life, but recognizing that likely
Speaker 1: going forward it will at best be a very superficial
Speaker 1: relationship that has always got that sort of cloud of
Speaker 1: judgment and shame hanging over it. And as I've said
Speaker 1: to others, self, compassion becomes a huge part of this
Speaker 1: work and having support from other individuals who may have
Speaker 1: gone through very similar processes as you, so you don't
Speaker 1: feel alone in this and feel supported. It is devastating.
Speaker 1: It is devastating to be invalidated by our parents for
Speaker 1: whom we simply are. But it's not insurmountable. And I
Speaker 1: really thank you for bringing up this question because it's
Speaker 1: it envelops two issues, not just what happens in individual families,
Speaker 1: but what happens in the world at large. And again
Speaker 1: a pushback, I don't believe in selective narcissism. If people
Speaker 1: may have nice manners, say their pleases and thank yous,
Speaker 1: and remember the right gift, and even help a person out,
Speaker 1: but if they weren't willing to extend that help to
Speaker 1: another human being on this arbitrary basis, that does not
Speaker 1: count as empathy in my book. Maybe that's just me,
Speaker 1: but I'm sticking. I'm sticking to my point of view.
Speaker 1: So thank you again for your incredibly vulnerable question. I
Speaker 1: have no doubt that many other people will benefit from this.
Speaker 1: I'd like to conclude by saying thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for joining us, thank you for your questions, something that
Speaker 1: I hope to keep getting to on a regular basis,
Speaker 1: especially when it rounds out what we're already talking about
Speaker 1: on navigating narcissism. One thing that these questions teach us
Speaker 1: is how devastating these relationships can be, no matter what
Speaker 1: the nature of the relationship is. And I also do
Speaker 1: want to reiterate yes, getting your questions answered can be helpful,
Speaker 1: but in most cases, talking to a licensed mental health
Speaker 1: practitioner about these issues to unpack not only issues related
Speaker 1: to narcissistic abuse, but then many other sorts of psychological
Speaker 1: and psychosocial challenges that come from these relationships is often necessitated.
Speaker 1: So thank you, Thank you for your vulnerable questions. Thank
Speaker 1: you for allowing me for a moment of attempt to
Speaker 1: shed a light on these issues. And please keep those
Speaker 1: questions coming in. It's a real privilege to read them,
Speaker 1: and many of them have forced me to really do
Speaker 1: a research deep dive to ensure that I keep this
Speaker 1: knowledge base moving forward in the hopes of validating each
Speaker 1: of your experiences in these very difficult situations. Thank you
Speaker 1: again for listening. A big thank you to our executive
Speaker 1: producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valen Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and Dr
Speaker 1: Rominey de Vassela. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones,
Speaker 1: associate producer Maria Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally,
Speaker 1: thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnahe
Speaker 1: and Calvin Bailiff.