1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: I guess we don't just start, do we We have 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: we have to be people first. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, 3 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 1: the people want to hear are our witty banter and 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: our delightful personal stories. Hit me quick, my friends listeners. 5 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: She froze. It was a great visual gag. Unfortunately, I'm 6 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:36,080 Speaker 1: sure I like very scared and it was good. We 7 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,240 Speaker 1: got to get this show on video, right, it's been 8 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: disguised face. Um, all right, well how about delightful personal 9 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: stories then? Um, it's tough. I mean, the only one 10 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: I have is that Atlanta is being sold to developers, 11 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,280 Speaker 1: piece by piece, so that everything we love about it 12 00:00:56,320 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: will soon be gone with delightful hilarious son, But what 13 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 1: an anecdote? I love it hilarious. I'm trying. I'm really 14 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: trying to think of something. I don't know. I know, 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 1: it's been a it's been a downer day. I was, 16 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: I had I had a hilarious story. I was on 17 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: the phone with customer service for my cell phone provider, 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: um for I don't know, four hours last night, in 19 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: six hours today, hilarious. That was a good time, rip 20 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: roaring treat for the whole family. Uh yeah, go ahead 21 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: and leave them unnamed. They are all time tooth heads. 22 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: I could say that. Um I, I mean I had 23 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: my first therapy appointment ever. Another another exciting, thrilling fun 24 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: time for everyone. Uh, it's good. It's been a hard 25 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,559 Speaker 1: week alright, already dealing with business things. And how about 26 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: how about now that the walls are down, I can 27 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: see that screaming goat you got me for Christmas? Go ahead, 28 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: grab it didn't come through, I don't know if it didn't. 29 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody saw thor Love and Thunder, 30 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: but it's basically that same thing. But this toy came 31 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: out long before that movie because the joke in that 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: movie was like nine years old, extremely old. Um, but yeah, 33 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,639 Speaker 1: you loved that. That should always made you laugh. You 34 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: could scream you should have had it today when you're 35 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: on the phone with All Time two hits. Oh that's right, 36 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 1: I should really let your feelings out. We had so 37 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: much fun in our last episode. We were talking about 38 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: those Reddit breakups. We didn't even get to the Reddit 39 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: marriage proposals or the Reddit sex stories, which will end 40 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: up in an episode later for sure, but we did 41 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: mention to all that we were doing that episode because 42 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 1: we were deep in research for this episode, which I 43 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: should say these episodes. Yes, I got I fell in 44 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: love with these folks, so you know how it happens. 45 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: It really does. Sometimes the ridiculous romances are really with 46 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,799 Speaker 1: us and our subjects, that's true. But I really fell 47 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: in love with them, and I got so fascinated in 48 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: the history because it's theater history, so of course special 49 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: place in my soul. But but they're just so amazing 50 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: and kind of forgotten today. So and they deserve to 51 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: be known about, I think definitely. Yeah, I just we 52 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: got real into it. Y'all might not know this about 53 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 1: us because we hide it pretty well, but we are 54 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: of the theater persuasion in our backgrounds. Hello, I'm a 55 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: thespian acting act and so yeah. So this story about Vaudeville, 56 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: early days of theater and uh and theater diversity more 57 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,080 Speaker 1: exciting also something we here in Atlanta are fortunate to 58 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: get a decent dose of. Although uh, the tide's been 59 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: turning more in that direction fortunately, yeah, hopefully nationwide, hopefully. 60 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: I would say these performers kind of set that tone 61 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: early on in the turn of the Turn of I 62 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: guess I have to say the turn of the twenty century. 63 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: Now we turned a whole other century since then, so 64 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: but no. At the turn of the twenty century, no 65 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: vaudeville act was as popular or sought after as the 66 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: Black Vaudeville troop of Williams and Walker. Bert Williams, who 67 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: is still recognized as one of the greatest black comedians 68 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: of all time, and George Walker, who was an equally 69 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: talented performer and very savvy businessman. They put together their 70 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: own vaudeville troop in the eighteen nineties. But when George 71 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: married Ada Overton and she joined the troop, the skype 72 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: became the limit for these guys. With her choreography, their 73 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: elaborate sets and costumes, and their determination to showcase black 74 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 1: people in a less stereotypical way, they took Vaudeville by storm, 75 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: and then Broadway and then the world. So let's learn 76 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: more about these incredible theater legends, right, let's go, Hey, 77 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: their French come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got some 78 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,920 Speaker 1: stories to tell. There's no matchmaking a romantic tips. It's 79 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: just about ridiculous relationships. A lover might be any type 80 00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: of person at all, and abstract concept or a concrete wall, 81 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: but if there's a story where the second Clinch Ridiculous 82 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: role vance a production of iHeart Radio. So. George Walker 83 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: was born in Kansas in eighteen seventy two or eighteen 84 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: seventy three, and he started his performing career early. He 85 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: toured around with medicine and minstrel shows as a child. Now, 86 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: minstrel shows had been one of the most popular comedic 87 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: entertainments since eighteen forty eight because northern white people were 88 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: really curious about what life was like in slavery, and 89 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: who better to explain it to them than white men 90 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: who really understood. So, yeah, white guys would put on 91 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: black face, they would paint on very wide red lips, 92 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: and they would wear white gloves, and they would imitate 93 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 1: these songs and dances of southern black people. Imitate, I 94 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,760 Speaker 1: think is a stretch. Imitators exaggerate, Yeah, just really do badly. 95 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:34,279 Speaker 1: I'm sure do poorly. Um. According to a New Yorker 96 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: article by Claudia roth pier Punt called Behind the Mask, 97 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: the minstrel show became quote the nation's first homegrown entertainment craze, 98 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: which I had never I never knew that minstrel shows 99 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 1: were like our first American made entertainment. I know, I 100 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: know sadly it does, but I guess we did import 101 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 1: a lot of our entertainment from from Europe until yeah, 102 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: that's true to their own stuff. Um, but I did 103 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: not know that America, you know, love it has a 104 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,479 Speaker 1: tendency to say I'm gonna put my own stamp on 105 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: this thing, and then that stamp is super racist. Well 106 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: that's It's what's what's extra crazy to me is that 107 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: right and right and here, right here, the very first 108 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: homegrown American entertainment thing had its roots in slavery. So 109 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: it's very odd to me that, you know, people who 110 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 1: don't like critical race theory are like, way, don't need 111 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: to learn about slavery, and it's like, actually, it's like 112 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: literally part of every American story. You can't leave it 113 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: out because it's it left an indelible stamp on so 114 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: much of American life. It's just anyway, So minstrel shows, uh, 115 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: we're first about kind of introducing I guess slavery life 116 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: and and southern black people's lifestyles to northern white people, 117 00:07:55,960 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: but they quickly devolved into mockery's of in support of slavery, 118 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: and then later after the Civil War in support of 119 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: Jim Crow segregation law. So that's when they kind of like, 120 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: I think, I guess at first, at least for a 121 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,119 Speaker 1: little while, very short period of time, they were since 122 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: a year like this is this is what they look 123 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: like down there they're doing. We want to share their 124 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: like way of life with you. And it quickly became like, 125 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: look at these idiots kind of wow, okay vibes, which 126 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: almost is like exposing what was already underneath it anyway, 127 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: just like oh yeah, sure they were sincere about it. 128 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm sure they were very earnest and honesty with it. No, 129 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: and then it just became like, actually, we're really just 130 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: being racist. Let's just go ahead and be upfront about it. 131 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: Why lie now? Actually, Jim Crow segregation laws were named 132 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: after a minstrel character because black people were depicted as 133 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: either the Jim Crow, which was a dimwitted, lazy country buffoon, 134 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: or the Jim Dandy, or as it was also called, 135 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: the Zip coon character um, which was a smooth talking 136 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: urban high class type. Obviously, the word coon is a slur. 137 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: It was a slur in its own time, it is 138 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: a slur today, so not a word to like add 139 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: to our vocabularies or anything like that. Usually we don't 140 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: say that kind of stuff if it's not historically important 141 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: relevant story. In this case, it is, so we did 142 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 1: preserve that name in this story. It's so interesting. I 143 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: really thought that Jim Crow was a guy that that 144 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: public education failed to teach me about. But it was 145 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: actually a character that public education failed to teach me exactly. Okay, 146 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: either way, public education failed you. So you can still 147 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: be mad once. That's it. That's the only time public exactly, 148 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: just the one time. Now in minstrel shows, even black 149 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: performers wore black face because of how much white audiences 150 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 1: just hated to see black people on stage. Serious, not kidding. 151 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: They would put on black cork, a burnt cork makeup 152 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: and be like, look, I'm here, I am white people. 153 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 1: What's wrong with us? I do laugh sometimes, like I'm 154 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: just like, white people are so sensitive. I mean, you 155 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: see it today too, But it's just it's it really is. Yeah. Yeah, 156 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: I shouldn't do the Southern accent because I mean, this 157 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: wasn't even exclusively Southern. We're talking about New York, Boston, 158 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 1: d C, Chicago. Forget handle it. I forget about it. 159 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: I can't forget about it. Somebody got it. Do something 160 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,120 Speaker 1: different because it's hurt in my eyes, God, losers insane. Now, 161 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: by the eight nineties, minstrel shows were being elbowed out 162 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: by vaudeville variety shows, kind of a new form of entertainment, 163 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: but the black face and the minstrel stereotypical characters were 164 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: still incredibly popular. So when the charming and outspoken George 165 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: Walker met the served talented musician and comic actor Burt 166 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: Williams in San Francisco in eight they decided they would 167 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: team up and create a good vaudeville act that would 168 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,439 Speaker 1: get him out of menstrul circuit for good, because they 169 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: were done with all that awesome. Now. Burt Williams was 170 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: a year younger than George. He was born in the Bahamas, 171 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: but he emmigrated with his parents at eleven years old 172 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 1: to Florida and then they moved to California. Now, first 173 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,200 Speaker 1: he wanted to become an engineer, but he couldn't afford 174 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: to go to Stanford University, so he became a singing 175 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 1: waiter at hotels in San Francisco. Now, originally, when Burt 176 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: and George got together, they just played the expectations like 177 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 1: Burt Williams. Since he had lighter skin, he would play 178 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: the straight man of the act, and he would act 179 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: opposite George Walker's dark skinned, bumbling of type character, because 180 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: again it's just, oh, this must be what white people 181 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 1: want to see. It was the dandy Walker was the 182 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: jim Crow, right, But then they realized wouldn't the be 183 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: a lot funnier if we switched, which is brilliant comedy. 184 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: Quite frankly, so, George Walker, who was more dark skin 185 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: than Burt, would perform not in black face. He became 186 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: the well dressed, strutting dandie character, and he would spend 187 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: all the money that he borrowed or tricked away from 188 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: Burt Williams slow, countrified simpleton character, and Bert did perform 189 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: in black face to darken his light skin. Burt Williams, 190 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: in fact, once said of his stage character quote, even 191 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: if it rains soup, he would be found with a 192 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: fork in his hand and no spoon insight. I love it. 193 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: Just an unlucky, you know, kind of guy. Camille Forbes 194 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: in her book introducing Burt Williams, she points out that 195 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: they suppressed the worst quality of the stereotypes they portrayed. 196 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: They chose instead to lean into the comedy of opposites. 197 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: So they had the wily schemer versus the innocent duke. Yeah, 198 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:00,680 Speaker 1: it's like an odd couple. Kind of classic classic, Yeah. 199 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: The Forbes writes that usually Bert's character would triumph in 200 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: the end through quote rare but incisive manipulation, revealing his 201 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:13,599 Speaker 1: surprising awareness of the social order, despite his recognized identity 202 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: as a simpleton. At the time, white people who performed 203 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: in black face build themselves, as the Sea Word talked 204 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: about earlier. So Walker and Williams decided to call themselves 205 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: the two real coons, and that was to distinguish themselves, 206 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: even though they knew it was a slur and they 207 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 1: both hated it. They were like, but we're the real ones, 208 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: you know, basically now, Camille Forbes explains this, She said, 209 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 1: quote black entertainer's success depended on their ability to satisfy 210 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 1: white audiences desire for authentic performances of blackness. Bert and 211 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: George's self description was a recognizable response to that demand. 212 00:13:56,720 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: I just love that white people are like, I want 213 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: an authentic portray alee of blackness, but only white people 214 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: can do it and only white men. Also, I don't 215 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: want to see a lady. Yeah right, Okay, how authentic 216 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,120 Speaker 1: can it possibly be? That's like, that's like me being like, 217 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:17,119 Speaker 1: I only eat authentic Italian food at good old Italian 218 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: restaurants like the Olive Gardens, because that's oh my god, 219 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, that's it's also that's what they 220 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 1: wanted to see. They wanted to see enslave people and 221 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: segregated people portrait as being like happy and fine with 222 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: it and they're dumb and they don't care and it's 223 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: fine and that's the proper way of things. Yeah, when 224 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: you showed them the reality, they said, no, no, no, 225 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: that's not real. I've seen it before. I've seen shows. Yeah, 226 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: I know how. They're actually happy. They're singing. Yeah, you know, 227 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: which did happen in slavery because they would sing. People 228 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: to see they're singing, so they must be happy out there. 229 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: And it's like, actually that's instructions on how to escape 230 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,280 Speaker 1: slavery through the river are like, I mean, look, this 231 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: is important information because this is happening. This is happening 232 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: when we look at like textbooks now where they're trying 233 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: to change slavery to like involuntary employment and stuff like that, 234 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: and make it sound like people were having a better 235 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 1: time than they were, because guess what, they weren't having 236 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: any good time, or that they were treated better than 237 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: they were, or even that if they were treated well, 238 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: it justified the whole system of slavery, which it doesn't. 239 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: I don't care how well I'm nice you were, you know, 240 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: it does you owned another person. That's totally crazy. But 241 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: in Burton George's publicity photos, they were always like the 242 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: opposite of white people expected. They were immaculate and well dressed, 243 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: and this underlined the differences between the caricatures of black 244 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: men that people saw on stage and they themselves. Is 245 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: the real thing. Yeah, they're like what you're seeing ain't 246 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: even when I'm doing it, that ain't the truth. This 247 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: is the truth. I'm a classy motherfucker. That's the true. Right. 248 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: But even having done this and like making that distinct 249 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: difference in their marketing materials, they did catch heat from 250 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: the black community from time to time because some people 251 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: felt that they were helping to maintain these stereotypes in 252 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: white people's minds. But this also paved the way for 253 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: more black theater professionals to change the game completely. So 254 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 1: it's kind of a you know, it's a Mackavellian kind 255 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: of thing, ends and means and all that. But they 256 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 1: made a choice and they thought this was the best 257 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: thing we can do for ourselves and our community, and 258 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: we'll see how it plays out. And it seems like 259 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: it played out well. Yeah. I think it's one of 260 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: those cases of people having to swallow their teeth so 261 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: they can take a seat at the table and make 262 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: more room for other people who maybe hopefully it would 263 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: not have to swallow their teeth as much, and so forth. 264 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: It's like sacrificing for the progress. I'm a very impatient 265 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: person when it comes to like social change. I am 266 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: definitely I am definitely, like always screaming at the news, like, 267 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: but why does it takes along? Just do it now, 268 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: just tomorrow, have it be different. It's not hard, and 269 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,879 Speaker 1: I believe that it's not. But at the same time, 270 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: I've also had to recognize the value of incremental change, 271 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: and uh, the I don't even want to say necessity 272 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: because I really still don't think it is necessary, but um, 273 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: it has been in the past. You've seen incremental change work. 274 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: So sometimes you just like, well, let's get a little done, 275 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 1: and then we'll get a little more done, and then 276 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: a little more and eventually we'll have something to finish. 277 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: I know, right, But it's like it's one of those 278 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: things where you're like people take a long time to change, 279 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 1: and then systems take even longer to change because they're 280 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: full of people who take a long time to change. 281 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: So it's like, you know, it's just a pile of 282 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: time on top of time and slowness and type of slowness. No, 283 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: I just have and I did ever get finished either, 284 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: because every time, you know, you get somewhere, you're like, great, 285 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: that's where I wanted to get, and it's still not 286 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: far enough. Yeah. Yeah. And in realizing that I was 287 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: in a horrible situation now that I'm out of it, 288 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: I realized that that was stacked underneath ten other horrible things. Yeah, 289 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: you just had to deal with the first horrible thing 290 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: and then oh good, I'm not enslaved anymore. Wait a second, 291 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,879 Speaker 1: I can't open up bank account, you know, like that 292 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: it's not And during segregation too, was like so extra 293 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: annoying because it was like you're separate but equal, so 294 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: just go make your own thing, and so black people 295 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: were like, great, I'll go make my own thing. And 296 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: then white people are like, I don't like that you 297 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: have your own things, go in and like fucking destroy it. 298 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: So it's like, well, what I thought, that's what you 299 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: said you wanted me to do. I was over in 300 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 1: my own corner here, and now you're up in my corner. 301 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: I don't know, We're just dumb. History can be very frustrating, 302 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: especially looking at social change. Uh, let's take a break. 303 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,080 Speaker 1: Oh okay, let's let's marinate on that a little, but 304 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: for a second, come back and get back to this story, 305 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 1: because otherwise we're going to go off, uh and just 306 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: be like white people fixing racism on our podcast. We 307 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: should probably dial that back. Yeah, we'll get back to 308 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: the story right after this. Yeah, welcome back to the show, everybody. Okay. 309 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: So the Bert Williams and George Walker duo was first 310 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: added to a struggling musical called The gold Bug in 311 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,879 Speaker 1: the show closed like pretty much as soon as they 312 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: were cast a week or two later. I wanted to 313 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: see that. I don't know if you did well. I 314 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: guess that was very good. So yeah, The gold Bug 315 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: was consigned to the Broadway trash Bin, but the Williams 316 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: and Walker act got really good reviews their particular section 317 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: of the show, so they were able to get a 318 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: gig at another theater for a thirty six week run, 319 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: and that is a really good run. And they were 320 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:59,640 Speaker 1: also approached by a tobacco company to pose for advertisements. 321 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 1: But the company wanted two women on the poster as 322 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: well as the two gentlemens. So George was dating a 323 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: dancer named Stella at the time, so she came along 324 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: the photo shoot and she brought her friend, a beautiful, independent, 325 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: extremely talented performer named Aida Overton. Now I I did 326 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: the research for this episode, and I found I found 327 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: several sources said she started her life as Aida Overton 328 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 1: and then changed her name later to Aida, but they 329 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: didn't seem to agree on that. So one said it 330 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: was just a typo in the census and her name 331 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: was always Aida, or it was just a mistake. Another 332 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 1: said she changed it to match the Haitian goddess of 333 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: fertility and rainbows. Then we saw another thing that said 334 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: she changed it because another Aida joined the crew, joined 335 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: the cast, so she wanted to be had an eye 336 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: into her name to make it different, right, So I'm 337 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: not sure the true story because again these sources don't agree. 338 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna call her Aida Overton throughout the episode, 339 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: and of which means I'm gonna be singing Aida in 340 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: my head the whole time, because that's not a song 341 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: from Aida. I don't know what you just said. I don't. 342 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: I've never seen Aida. It's so good. First of all, theater. 343 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's Elton John's musical about the 344 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: slaves in Egypt, so take that for what it is. 345 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: But it's it's, you know what, the thing about Aida. 346 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: It's my favorite Elton John album because that whole show 347 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: is just straight up Elton John music and it's great, 348 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 1: and I there should have I would love to see 349 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: it with an Egyptian cast and not Adam Pascal. But 350 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: but I definitely played that soundtrack to Death in high 351 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: school and then I saw it at the Fox. It 352 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 1: was good. It wasn't great, but it was good, all right. 353 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: I guess I should listen it is it is an 354 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: iconic musical. I'm not a big musical person, so I 355 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: never come into it. But it's an Atlanta staple technically 356 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 1: because they premiered it here before it went to Broadway, 357 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: and um, they had this big mechanical moving pyramid that 358 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: moved around the stage that was apparently constantly breaking down 359 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: the whole performances without it or with it stationary anyway, 360 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: I'm going I'm getting into Aida. Yeah, that's not this 361 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: is about so. Aida Overton was born in New York 362 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,479 Speaker 1: on Valentine's Day, and the Library of Congress says she 363 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 1: quote was a child who seemed to have danced before 364 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: she walked, so her parents got her into musical training early, 365 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: and she joined her first black touring group at the 366 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: age of fifteen, and a few years later she joined 367 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: Black Patty's Troubadours, which was a troop owned and operated 368 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 1: by Matilda Cceretta Joiner Jones Cisiretta Jones was a soprano 369 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: who was called the Black Patty as a reference to 370 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: a famous Italian opera singer named Adelina Patty. And she 371 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: had a major impact on Aida because she was why 372 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 1: wasn't Adelina Patty the attack Allien Cicretta, Well you know why? Well, yeah, 373 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: you know why? You why? I don't know if maybe 374 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: Adelina came first, no idea, but you know, I still. 375 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: So anyways, Cieretta Jones had a major impact on Aida 376 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: because she was a black woman who owned her own company. 377 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: She sang at the White House for President Benjamin Harrison, 378 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: and she was the highest paid black entertainer of her time. 379 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: So Ida was definitely like, let me take some notes. 380 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: But right before this tobacco ad thing came up, Aida 381 00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: had a bad experience when the management and the performers 382 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: kind of went head to head over some pay dispute, 383 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: and Aida was just not like she was not trying 384 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 1: to get into all that. She was not trying to 385 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: get into some arguments. She said, no more drama in 386 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: my life, like Mary J. Blige, and she decided to 387 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,879 Speaker 1: retire from the stage for good. So when she accepted 388 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: this cigarette ad gig, she figured it's just a one 389 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: time job. She post some photos, get her cash, move on. 390 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: She says, this is uh. She says, I'll do one 391 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: more job. And that said, just like Danny Ocean, like this, 392 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: I'm getting out of the game for good. After this, 393 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: this will be enough to retire on Tahiti. I'll move 394 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: on to something completely different. Well, Burton George had a 395 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 1: different idea because they have been looking for a hook 396 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 1: for their vaudeville act, and they thought they found one. 397 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: It's called the cake walk dance. Now, the cake walk 398 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 1: has its roots in West African tribal traditions, according to 399 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: Camille Forbes, but in America it was inextricably linked with slavery. 400 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: Enslave people would dress up in their finest clothing and 401 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: do this partnered dance, and then the funniest or most 402 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: impressive or amazing or accomplished moves would win the prize, 403 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 1: which was a cake. Be The question is who takes 404 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: the cake? Oh Tuesday from Okay? Who takes the game? All? Right? Now, 405 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:07,280 Speaker 1: usually these dances would be judged by their enslavers, but 406 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: it quickly evolved into a satire of the enslavers, although 407 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: they probably didn't pick up on it. The dancers would 408 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: mimic all this fussy bowing and curtsying and all the 409 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: overly formal and poised movements of the white dances like 410 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 1: the waltz or the minuet, really just making fun of 411 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: all these properness. Yeah. Now, white entertainers in their minstrel 412 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,360 Speaker 1: shows almost always included a similar dance to a cake 413 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: walk that they called it a walk about or a strut, 414 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,120 Speaker 1: and they were usually a big feature in the show, 415 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,399 Speaker 1: so George and Burt knew that they should add one 416 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,880 Speaker 1: to their act too. And there's a real sublime irony 417 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: here that Camille Forbes talks about in introducing Burt Williams. 418 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,879 Speaker 1: She said, quote the dance thereby became the performance of 419 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: white entertainers in black face who imitated a black dance 420 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: create it to lampoon whites. By the time Williams and 421 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: Walker performed it, the irony was even further heightened or deepened, 422 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: as these black performers now performed a dance imitating whites 423 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: who mocked blacks who satirized whites pretentious and fussy mannerisms. 424 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: It's me, you copy me, I'm gonna copy. Now, I'm 425 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,120 Speaker 1: gonna copy the copy, and then you copy the copy 426 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: of the copy, and then but your copy is better. 427 00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: I'm mocking what you stole from me. I stole from you, 428 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: you stole back from me, and now I'm making fun 429 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 1: of you. For that's pretty great. And it's so it's 430 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: just that ship made me laugh so hard. It's like 431 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 1: we're making Oh, let's make fun of black people. It 432 00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: turns out they're making fun of us the whole time. 433 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:53,399 Speaker 1: But we didn't know that because again, that's superiority. They 434 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 1: just could never assume. I think they just couldn't put 435 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 1: it in their minds that enslaved people would have an 436 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: opinion of about them or be able to, I don't know, 437 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: think of them in a satirical way or whatever. Like. 438 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: They just wouldn't be able to see that irony. Um. 439 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:12,679 Speaker 1: But it was the white people who didn't see it, 440 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: you know. Anyway, So George went to ask Aida Overton 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 1: to join Williams and Walker and she said no, She's 442 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: said that was it alpha good? So George actually had 443 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: to visit her several times with different proposals and really 444 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: persist before she finally agreed to join. And it would 445 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: be the best decision of George's life. We'll find out 446 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: why right after this break. All right, welcome back to 447 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: the show. All right. So the inclusion of two women 448 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: in the Williams and Walker acts would set them apart 449 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: all by itself. But Ida was something special. I cannot 450 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: stress this enough. She would quickly become their leading choreographer, 451 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: and she had a star power that just held audiences spellbound. 452 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: You can't not get enough for her. You can't, don't exactly, 453 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: And I'm sure George thought because he was a pretty 454 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,240 Speaker 1: sad producer, and he was like, people want to look 455 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: at you, and that's just the truth. And if you 456 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,000 Speaker 1: have that, you can be even not very talented and 457 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: still have a good career. Right. But like she was 458 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 1: also incredibly talented. She's also beautiful, gorgeous, say gorgeous person. 459 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: We've been reading this whole story and this is the 460 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: first time I've googled her, and she is I don't 461 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: know what the word is. Yeah, it's very beautiful. I 462 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: want to watch whatever she's doing. In one of her pictures, 463 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: she looks a lot like I want to say, Zazzi 464 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: beats how to pronounce her name. I know it's wrong, 465 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: but she's amusing because she was saying it's not Zay. 466 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 1: I think it's just bits Ba. Yeah, well she's awesome. 467 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: She might she might do it our journey small leads 468 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: I know can sing. Maybe she would be a good choice. 469 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't know. Somebody make this movie and you tell 470 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: me who should player, because I will watch it that. 471 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: Camille Forbes writes, quote Ada in particular, made a difference 472 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: that not only equal great success for Williams and Walker, 473 00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: but also created a national craze for the cake walk. 474 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: Although Williams and Walker were not the cake walks innovators, 475 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 1: by the time they were done popularizing it, their names 476 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: would be forever linked with the dance. The first time 477 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: they performed the cake walk is part of their vodellact. 478 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: It was just Stella and Ada on stage with George 479 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: and Burst, but within a month they had added dozens 480 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: of dancers to the bill. Um. They had incredible moves. 481 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes they would bend over backwards until their heads almost 482 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: touched the floor. Um. Sometimes they were performed with buckets 483 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 1: of water on their heads and danced ecstatically and energetically 484 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 1: without spilling a single drop. Like it was just insange stunts. 485 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: You know. People are like, I can't believe what I'm 486 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,840 Speaker 1: looking at. And through eight ninety eight they tore their 487 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: acts throughout the nation, with the cake walk as their 488 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: big show sopper. They received incredible acclaim and they rose 489 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 1: to the top of the bob bill scene. Ata was 490 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: even being invited by white society elites to teach them 491 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 1: to cake walk in private lessons, which helped maintain its popularity. 492 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: She even wrote an article about it to like show 493 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 1: tell people how to do it. But people were obsessed, 494 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 1: like they were really interested. So by eight they were 495 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: established and they were successful, and George and Bert decided 496 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 1: that they were going to rent an elegant apartment on 497 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: fifty third Street in New York City, and this was 498 00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: in the middle of what was called Black Bohemia, and 499 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 1: they wanted to make this the central gathering place for 500 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: any black man who wanted to make a career in theater. 501 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: George Walker wrote that quote, by having these men around, 502 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to study the musical and theatrical 503 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: ability of the most talented members of our race. He's like, 504 00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 1: you know what I need the most talented black people 505 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,040 Speaker 1: there is. How about I just throw open my doors 506 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: and welcome them to me, and they'll come to me. 507 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: I mean, having a good central hangout spot is beneficial 508 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: for any artistic community, you know, or people to show 509 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: up and exchange ideas. I mean, I'm thinking about the factory, 510 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: thinking about a ton of different Broadway locations, East Village 511 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: in general. You know, like and you like, yeah, you 512 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: meet people to collaborate with and you'll come up with 513 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 1: things and you work on stuff and just having the 514 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: fellowship period, even if you do no work together, it's 515 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: just nice to hang out with people, like like a 516 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: fringe festival, you know, like that might be a good 517 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: place for artists to convene. If only someone I knew 518 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: organized and operated one of those, I would marry her 519 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: in a second. And um, although I want to ask 520 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: they specifically say men here, they were not inviting to 521 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:13,880 Speaker 1: women performers, I didn't see that they did. Particularly. Things 522 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: were just so gendered at this time that I think 523 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: if you had an organization, it was a fraternal organization, 524 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: it was a men's group. It was business was for men. 525 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,479 Speaker 1: So I think it's not that different. But like the 526 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: image of theater, you know, and you're thinking of, like, 527 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: all these are men, and we hang around and we 528 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: smoked cigars and we talked about what Broadway performance we're 529 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: going to do next week, you know. But you know, 530 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: that's so opposite of the image I grew up with 531 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: about what theater is. But then you get into theater 532 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and you're like it's still male dominated dominated definitely. Alright, 533 00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: So at this time, black acts were only given a 534 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: single slot on a vaudeville bill. At this was meant 535 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: to limit black entertainers influence and also to limit the 536 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 1: number of black people in the audience as well. Yeah, 537 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: stated goal by the way like this, It wasn't just like, 538 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 1: oh we figured out there the real reasons for doing it. 539 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: They were open about it was a feature. Now, George 540 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: and Burt knew that to build a real career they 541 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: would need to put up their own really big show. 542 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,800 Speaker 1: And thanks to this meeting place that they've created, they 543 00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: were in the best company possible to form their own 544 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: production team, which they called the Williams and Walker Company, 545 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: and they started producing full length musicals. Some of their 546 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: frequent collaborators were composer will Marion Cook or playwright Jesse A. 547 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 1: Ship and the poet and lyricist Paul Lawrence Dunbar and 548 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: Ida was their leading choreographer. Yeah, Paul Lawrence Dunbar I 549 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: have a little bit of a connection with because in 550 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: my high school we actually performed his poem We Wear 551 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: the Mask Kidding. We studied it and we we uh 552 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: like put it up as part of one of our 553 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,839 Speaker 1: shows that we did. Um. But yeah, he's it was 554 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: it was cool to learn a little bit more about him. 555 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: He's not much in this episode because we had too 556 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 1: much to go over. But he's an interesting guy. Look 557 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,400 Speaker 1: him up all right. Now. George was the business savvy 558 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: spokesman type in this group, and both he and Bert 559 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: insisted that they were only going to produce quality theater, 560 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 1: elaborate sets, big fancy props, costumes and lighting on par 561 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,280 Speaker 1: with the white theaters. They wanted to elevate the professionalism 562 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: of black theater and encourage black people to pursue theatrical careers. 563 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,319 Speaker 1: They also paid good salaries to their artists and their 564 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 1: stage hands. Now look at that, we're talking about an 565 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: abstract support of a place to gather together and like 566 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: very like encouraging, like we can do better, we can 567 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,400 Speaker 1: do the best. We don't have to do these stereo types. 568 00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: It's kind of an abstract support in that, but it 569 00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: was paired up with a very real, solid financial support 570 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: of money, good wages, which you need. Both so important. 571 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: It's been so hard, there's been a real um, it's 572 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: been a real reckoning. And I feel like in Atlanta, 573 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: at least in the last few years, UM, we've been saying, look, 574 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: you have to pay people. I know you're a low 575 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: budget theater company, but you got to find it. Otherwise 576 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: you're not a little budget theater company, you know, like 577 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: not a company. Yeah. I mean there's like we had 578 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: a theater company for you know, still technically and and 579 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: we did shows for well over a decade, um, you know, 580 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 1: mostly not paying ourselves at all. It was just like 581 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: we take our ten dollar ticket sales, we put them 582 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: back into account. We used that to paint the sets 583 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: next time. Um. And we all knew that going into it. 584 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,839 Speaker 1: And there wasn't like one person in charge getting paid 585 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: while no one else did or anything like that. Um. 586 00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: But uh, and and that's okay. I know a lot 587 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: of artists are like, look, they're still projects you do 588 00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: for the love, sure, sure, or like to get yourself 589 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: established or can write folks or whatever. There's plenty of 590 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 1: reasons to work for free. It's just that people will 591 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,800 Speaker 1: do it to exploit you, and they're like, your talent 592 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 1: is the reason I'm making money. So it was people 593 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: kind of going, well, then, my talent is worth money 594 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 1: right right exactly now. In The New York Age, which 595 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 1: was one of the most prominent black newspapers of its time, 596 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: they would later call George Walker quote the commander in 597 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,720 Speaker 1: chief of the Black theatrical Forces. Pretty cool, Pretty cool. 598 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: Their first full length show was called The Senegambian carnival Um. 599 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 1: It's described in the books Spread and Rhythm Around Black 600 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: Popular Songwriters from as being about George's dandy character trying 601 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: to con Bert's character out of some gold that Bert's 602 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: character had found in a Laska. But that plot quote 603 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: served mainly as a clothes line to hang song and 604 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,360 Speaker 1: Dan numbers on. So they hadn't quite got to like 605 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: a story, you know, a full story. It's more of 606 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: a through line exactly. Yeah. And it toured successfully for 607 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 1: a few months in Boston, d c. And Cincinnati. During 608 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,919 Speaker 1: this tour, Bert started courting a widowed actress eight years 609 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: older than him named Lottie Thompson Latti Dotti dog In. 610 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: He surprised George by announcing that he had married Lottie 611 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,520 Speaker 1: in a private ceremony, and I wonder if George was like, man, 612 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: I want to come, I'm your friends. Uh. Burt and 613 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: Lottie would stay together for the rest of Bert's life. 614 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: They never had any children of their own, but they 615 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,279 Speaker 1: did adopt and raised three of Lottie's nieces, and they 616 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 1: opened their home to orphans and foster children at just 617 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: like sweet romance between these two. But Burt was not 618 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: the only one hit with Cupid zero because George and 619 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: Ada had been falling in love during their two years 620 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: before arming together, and in June they got married when 621 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,760 Speaker 1: she was nineteen and he was twenty six, and Ada 622 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: became Aida Overton Walker, which is the name she's best 623 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: known as now. Their next show was called Sons of 624 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: Ham and this was a force about two bums who 625 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,800 Speaker 1: get mistaken for twin airs to a fortune that, according 626 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: to an article by Lily Johnson on Dartmouth Dot ETU, 627 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: was written as just a general plot outline so Burton 628 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: George could add lib and improvised throughout. They're just like, oh, 629 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,839 Speaker 1: we're two bums who are now rich. Hi, what's gonna happen? Now? 630 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,719 Speaker 1: Give me an emotion and a fruit it. Yeah, that's 631 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 1: pretty fun. Yeah. Just the first thing that popped into 632 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: my head was trading places. I know it's a little difference, 633 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: but you know, making bums rich and seeing what they 634 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: do with it is a classic story. I also wonder 635 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,600 Speaker 1: if they joked a little about the twins thing, because 636 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 1: they were not meant to be related, and I don't 637 00:38:57,480 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: think their characters were related, So I wonder if they 638 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: had any any humor in that of like y'all think 639 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: we look alt, Oh yeah, that's okay, we're twins. Give 640 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: us this money. That's good. I don't know. Unfortunately, there's 641 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,320 Speaker 1: no book to read of it or anything, but it's 642 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,240 Speaker 1: I like to think that they had a good moment, 643 00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,319 Speaker 1: that a good little bit with that. Now, brit and 644 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:18,919 Speaker 1: George had a friend in the audience who would write 645 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,600 Speaker 1: down jokes and slapstick that that worked, that hit that's brilliant, 646 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,439 Speaker 1: and that helped Williams and Walker learned what their audiences liked, 647 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,520 Speaker 1: and that helped them keep what worked and lose what 648 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: didn't in their shows. Brilliant because you can't always tell. 649 00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,279 Speaker 1: Sometimes you're on stage and you're like, man, they are 650 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: not responding at all right now, And then you talk 651 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:40,840 Speaker 1: to someone who was in the audience later and they're like, 652 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: I was dying. We were all laughing our asses off. 653 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: You can't always get it. So that's very clever, it is, 654 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,680 Speaker 1: and it's one of the beauties of theater, to be honest, 655 00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: because you're doing the show over and over and over again, 656 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: and they're like, so let's change it, let's fix it. 657 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 1: I mean, we'll put it up and then what doesn't work, 658 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: don't do it tomorrow, you know what I mean. It's 659 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: very stand up. Yeah, I hear. I was just listening 660 00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: to the Patton as well to talk about that. He's like, 661 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, you'll do your show and you'll write down 662 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: what works. He said, he was talking about taping a special. 663 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,080 Speaker 1: He was like, I tape this special, and of course 664 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: the five times after that that I did this show 665 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,520 Speaker 1: was so much better. Yeah, And I know you always 666 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 1: wish that, Like, I mean, that's just true live performance 667 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: all the time. You want to keep changing it because 668 00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 1: you're always finding good things that work and things that didn't. 669 00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,160 Speaker 1: As long as you keep working on it, I'll always 670 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 1: get better. Well well if you're if you do it 671 00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: right in theory. In addition to cutting out what didn't work, 672 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: they also cut all the black stereotypical characters. They were 673 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,479 Speaker 1: well known to vaudeville audiences. We already know that Burton 674 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,360 Speaker 1: George hated those kind of characters from the start, and 675 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: they worked to subvert the stereotypes of black men on 676 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: stage and also Aida totally refused to play stereotypes she 677 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: said she would only portray black women as dignified and 678 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,360 Speaker 1: well rounded. Good for her, but she's like, I know 679 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,560 Speaker 1: what I'm worth, and it's more than this and well 680 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: and and it was so much about the culture. You know, Unfortunately, 681 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: if you're from a marginalized population, you don't everything you 682 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: do is not just you representing everybody else, which is 683 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: an extra weight that is not shouldn't be there, but 684 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: it's just the fact of the matter. And Steve really 685 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,200 Speaker 1: felt all all three of them really felt like we 686 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: can use we're right in front of a bunch of 687 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: white people all the time, we can use this to 688 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 1: help every black person in the nation. And so they 689 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,240 Speaker 1: really felt they really felt like they could make some changes. 690 00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 1: I'll borrow a story I just heard, uh Carrie Washington 691 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: give on on our Friends Jason and Sean and Will's 692 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,239 Speaker 1: podcast SmartLess Friends of the Show. Um. She was on that, 693 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:55,320 Speaker 1: and she said that when she got Scandal, when she 694 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: was cast on Scandal, she was the first um Black 695 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: woman in a leading role on a on an hour 696 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 1: long drama. She was like, I know that if I 697 00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 1: don't do this right, it'll be another forty years before 698 00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,400 Speaker 1: this happens again. Wow. And I was like, damn, that 699 00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,400 Speaker 1: is so much extra weight to have to carry. That's outrageous. 700 00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:16,080 Speaker 1: Can you imagine? I can't. I'm like blown away that 701 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:17,839 Speaker 1: it took that long for there to be a leading 702 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,240 Speaker 1: actress in an hour long drama. That it was just scandal, 703 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 1: which pretty recent. That's wild, but it's true. It's just 704 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,319 Speaker 1: like a female director. You know, you're like, well, if 705 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:29,920 Speaker 1: this movie is amazing, people will say it's because of 706 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 1: some guy, and if it's bad, they'll say it's because 707 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:34,400 Speaker 1: of me. And no one will give a movie to 708 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 1: a woman ever. Again. We tried that once. It didn't 709 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: work exactly. I'm like, how many bad movies and men 710 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: made and they get a million other chances. We've all 711 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: made bad movies, and you know what you need next time? 712 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 1: Probably more money. That'll help. I'll fix it. So, all 713 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: that being said, they decided they were going to move 714 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: away from their minstrel roots into fuller, more human comedy styles. Yeah, 715 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: they're really realizing their dreams. You know, they're getting there now. 716 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,360 Speaker 1: Aida got a ton of fame during this show with 717 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,320 Speaker 1: her rendition of a song called Hannah from Savannah, and 718 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: she brought this song up to an instant hit, and 719 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,799 Speaker 1: she got national attention for her voice and her graceful 720 00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:23,040 Speaker 1: dance mastering. Plus Bert's rendition of a song good Morning 721 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 1: Carrie made that one of the biggest hits of nineteen 722 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:28,840 Speaker 1: o one, and that was covered by several artists, so 723 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 1: multiple nationwide hit songs came out of this show. Still, 724 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:37,359 Speaker 1: the world had its way of her mind in them 725 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,920 Speaker 1: that they were second class citizens in America. The New 726 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: Yorker says that back when they were on the minstrel circuit, 727 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:48,479 Speaker 1: both Bert and George barely escaped a Colorado mining camp 728 00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: where they were performing when they were accused of being 729 00:43:51,920 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: more well dressed than a black man had the right 730 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: to be, and they were stripped of their clothing by 731 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,040 Speaker 1: this mob. Some like jealousy because they're in a mining camp, 732 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,080 Speaker 1: so I'm assuming the miners maybe didn't have nice clothes 733 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,480 Speaker 1: and they were like, why do you have something nice? 734 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: And I don't. That's what sounds like to me, which 735 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: got some jealousy in it, I think definitely. In August 736 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,959 Speaker 1: of nineteen hundred, all these hysterical rumors started spreading around 737 00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 1: New York that a white detective had been shot by 738 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,560 Speaker 1: a black man. This caused a riot, and George did 739 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: not know about this and he got caught up in 740 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: it and was yanked off of a street car and 741 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 1: beaten by a white mob. Just still like, no matter 742 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: they're fame levels or anything like that, they're still being 743 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: like we said, reminded constantly, don't forget where a lot 744 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: of people in this country want you to be right. 745 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,239 Speaker 1: And it's like on stage you're a god, but off 746 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: stage you're just another black guy, and I don't care. 747 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: It's like as Sons of Ham ran for about sixteen performances, 748 00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: they did eight ninet and eight in nineteen o one. 749 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,719 Speaker 1: The meanwhile, the team of Williams and Walker were hard 750 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,560 Speaker 1: at work on their next show in Dahomey, where their 751 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,400 Speaker 1: characters are con men who traveled to the African country 752 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,840 Speaker 1: of Dahomey to colonize it along with a group of 753 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,000 Speaker 1: poor black people. And this was the first full length 754 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: show to open at an indoor venue on Broadway, entirely written, 755 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: produced and performed by black people. And there's a great 756 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: story where George Walker said that he was playing to 757 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,680 Speaker 1: an East Side audience and he was like singing a song, 758 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:31,920 Speaker 1: and he said, one day I'll sing this on Broadway 759 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:34,799 Speaker 1: and they all laughed, and like a month later they 760 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,640 Speaker 1: were on Broadway. So I love that amazing he manifested 761 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: it even cooler than that, it was a major hit 762 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,800 Speaker 1: and charters. In her book Nobody, The Story of Burt Williams, 763 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: wrote that critics noted that quote. All Burt Williams had 764 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,719 Speaker 1: to do was look at the audience and it went 765 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:59,919 Speaker 1: into spasms promptly, which makes me think of how sen 766 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: Apparently now these days we'll write a sketch and they'll 767 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,400 Speaker 1: just go Keenan cut to Keenan. Keenan reacts like Keenan 768 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: Thompson whatever. So good. I mean, all he has to 769 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,800 Speaker 1: do is make a little face man, and I'm on 770 00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 1: the floor. So good. He's got Burt Williams energy. But 771 00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,440 Speaker 1: to be fair, I was I've been a lifelong Keenan 772 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,719 Speaker 1: fan because my favorite show as a kid was all 773 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: that I never saw, Oh my god, and his bit 774 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,759 Speaker 1: about his bits like the frenchman in the bathtub doing 775 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: it was everyday French with Pierre's Marco, and he just 776 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: read the most ridiculous He'd be like, he'd be like, 777 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing did you French? Today? We learned to say 778 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: what does this fish doing in my mayonnaise jar? Was 779 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: very useful. It would take in French first and then 780 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: reveal what the ridiculous phrase was and then do his 781 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:54,280 Speaker 1: whole keenan comedy legend. Forever be a fan. Well anyway, 782 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:58,600 Speaker 1: Burt Williams was getting praised for his comedy stylings and 783 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: Aa became known as the Queen of the cake Walk. 784 00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:06,560 Speaker 1: One vaudeville performer Tom Fletcher wrote in his autobiography that 785 00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:10,840 Speaker 1: she was a dancer quote who could do almost anything, 786 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,839 Speaker 1: and no matter whether it was a fucking wing cake 787 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,399 Speaker 1: wop or even some form of grotesque dancing, she lent 788 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,960 Speaker 1: the performance and made gracefulness of movement which was unsurpassed 789 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,279 Speaker 1: by anyone. Tom Fletcher, by the way, was a black 790 00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,080 Speaker 1: Fodeville performer, and he wrote his autobiography One hundred Years 791 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: of the Negro in Show Business. It was published in 792 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,839 Speaker 1: nineteen four. It's like the only eyewitness account of black 793 00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: performers at the turn of the century, and apparently it's 794 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,279 Speaker 1: used as a source by like most theater historians. So 795 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:47,319 Speaker 1: that's a book I'd like to read. Tom Fletcher. Ladies 796 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:51,600 Speaker 1: and Gent's into Homie played for fifty three performances on Broadway. 797 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,120 Speaker 1: That's pretty good, before touring throughout England and Scotland, where 798 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,280 Speaker 1: they were so popular. They ended up doing a command 799 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: perform Our Months for the King and Queen of England 800 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:08,360 Speaker 1: at Buckingham Palace for Edward the eighth ninth birthday. Edward 801 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:10,680 Speaker 1: the eighth would later go on to abdicate the crown, 802 00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,320 Speaker 1: to marry a divorcee, and also become a fascist. So 803 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: this is kind of funny. He's became a big white supremacist. 804 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: But for his ninth birthday they were like, let's watch 805 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,520 Speaker 1: in Dahomie. I wish it had done more for him 806 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,200 Speaker 1: his mindset. So this was like the most popular musical 807 00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,960 Speaker 1: in London. It even became the first black musical to 808 00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: have its score published in in the UK. That is, 809 00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:37,279 Speaker 1: it was still not published in the US because we're 810 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:40,640 Speaker 1: still on our bullshit and aristocrats. They are also paid 811 00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: Aita to teach them private lessons in the cake Walk, 812 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: like she was doing in the US Library of Congress, 813 00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: writes quote. In the cake Walk, Williams and Walker had 814 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:54,560 Speaker 1: found a quintessential black modernist expression high art worthy of 815 00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:58,960 Speaker 1: being performed before royalty for the white elite and on 816 00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:02,840 Speaker 1: the concert stage, Aida Overton Walker provided the dance with 817 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,680 Speaker 1: new gloss, converting it from its past in lower class 818 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,440 Speaker 1: black dance halls that referenced the old slave culture to 819 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,719 Speaker 1: being an icon of the modern concert hall. And after 820 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: a year they returned to America and went on a 821 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: forty week tour across the United States and with this massive, 822 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: massive hit, i mean worldwide hit, everyone involved became household 823 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:33,720 Speaker 1: name that includes George Walker, Burt Williams, Ida Overton Walker, 824 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,800 Speaker 1: will Marian Cook, Jesse Ship, and Paul Lawence Dunbar like, 825 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: everyone involved were famous, so awesome. It's just so cool 826 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,040 Speaker 1: to see how how they did that incremental change. Right 827 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,279 Speaker 1: they started off in minstrel shows. They were like, well, 828 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,839 Speaker 1: do your stupid thing. Now we'll do our Roadville show 829 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:54,759 Speaker 1: where we still do your stupid thing, but a little 830 00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,160 Speaker 1: less stupidly. And then now we're doing our own musicals 831 00:49:58,280 --> 00:49:59,880 Speaker 1: and we're just not going to do your stupid thing 832 00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,160 Speaker 1: all We're just gonna show black people in black culture 833 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,279 Speaker 1: and you're gonna enjoy it. And they fucking did because 834 00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,720 Speaker 1: it was so good. That's so cool now, Lily Johnson 835 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: on Dartmouth Dot E du writes that their success within 836 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,719 Speaker 1: Dahomie helped George and Burt quote develop a formula for 837 00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:22,799 Speaker 1: their musicals, Fanciful Locations, big chorus numbers, featuring Aida over 838 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,520 Speaker 1: Tin Walker in a leading role, and a whole evening 839 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,320 Speaker 1: of laughs before the clowning hard look Simpleton Williams finally 840 00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:34,160 Speaker 1: got wise to the fast talking dandy Walker, and I 841 00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:36,279 Speaker 1: love that they were like, okay, listen, we wanna we 842 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,840 Speaker 1: want to be successful. Aida has to have a solo. 843 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:43,239 Speaker 1: Aida has to be one of the main She is 844 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:45,560 Speaker 1: the main attraction, so we've got to put her all 845 00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:47,960 Speaker 1: over this bitch. Of course. I love that you don't 846 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,400 Speaker 1: put Michael Jordan in a movie and he doesn't play basketball, 847 00:50:54,880 --> 00:50:58,120 Speaker 1: You don't put you don't put Ryan Gosling in something 848 00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,920 Speaker 1: and he doesn't take his shirt off? Does he know? 849 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,520 Speaker 1: Did you take a shirt off? And Gray Mane like 850 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,759 Speaker 1: he always gets a shirt off at some point. Yeah, 851 00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,239 Speaker 1: he got shot and they like banaged him up. You 852 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,959 Speaker 1: know they always do that. It's it's for us, Yeah, 853 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: it's for you. It's for all of us, always, for 854 00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,320 Speaker 1: all of us. Whatever. I has never never been a 855 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,960 Speaker 1: big Ryan Gosling fan, But this isn't about him, No, 856 00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: it's not way to make this great episode about black 857 00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:28,920 Speaker 1: people about a white guy throwaway reference to Ryan Gosling 858 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:37,280 Speaker 1: America's Sweetheart. No, I actually I love in my mind 859 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,480 Speaker 1: at a teaching the cakewalk dance to all these rich 860 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,840 Speaker 1: white aristocrats is just like, it's what am I picturing. 861 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:49,239 Speaker 1: I'm seeing like somebody teaching a bunch of rich white 862 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 1: people the Superman or something, you know, at a wedding. 863 00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,759 Speaker 1: But it's just like so embarrassing and she has to 864 00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:57,799 Speaker 1: be like, no, you're doing a great job, and they 865 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,239 Speaker 1: look ridiculous. I don't know if it was that, but 866 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: that's what it is. In my mind. I thought about 867 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,480 Speaker 1: like TikTok dances, because you know, there's so many TikTok 868 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,760 Speaker 1: dances that come from black creators and it's amazing sharp, 869 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,000 Speaker 1: really dope choreography. And then you'll see I think people 870 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,320 Speaker 1: were making fun of like Addison ray On Jimmy Fallon 871 00:52:16,320 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: because she came on to teach him some of these 872 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: tech shook dances and she was like, like, not good. 873 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:24,799 Speaker 1: It was barely as good. If you see them side 874 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:28,400 Speaker 1: by side, you're like, what is the comparison? And so 875 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,360 Speaker 1: it was just it was like I was just picturing 876 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:34,319 Speaker 1: these they're bending over backwards with their heads touching the ground. 877 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,759 Speaker 1: You know, I know white person did that, like you know, 878 00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,880 Speaker 1: so they must have been doing a very lame version 879 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,719 Speaker 1: of it. In comparison, Geralds, my head touched the ground 880 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:52,680 Speaker 1: just like a over. In my childhood, they would play 881 00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 1: musical chairs and whoever one they want a cake, whoever won, 882 00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: and they just called a cake walk. That what I 883 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: thought was a cake walk a long time. And then yeah, 884 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: I did this episode and I was like, oh, that's 885 00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: not what a cake walk is. Apparently it has its 886 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: roots in Americans slavory. Why did anyone tell me? I 887 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:16,439 Speaker 1: think it's so interesting that this elaborate dance for people 888 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:18,120 Speaker 1: who bending a records, touching their heads in the ground, 889 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:19,800 Speaker 1: or having buckets of water on their head not spilling 890 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 1: any it's called a cake walk. And now a cake 891 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,879 Speaker 1: walk means something easy, easy, Yes, right, I guess that's 892 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: deliberately ironic. Maybe so maybe so well, And I will 893 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,279 Speaker 1: say they talked a lot about how like Bird and 894 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:38,239 Speaker 1: George had some incredible moves to where I mean, they 895 00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: were like, most of these reviews are from white people, 896 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,319 Speaker 1: so they're like, he'll just pop his I'll blow out 897 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,480 Speaker 1: and his legs will go in opposite directions, and I 898 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,440 Speaker 1: just don't even know how he's doing this. You know, 899 00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:50,920 Speaker 1: how are your body moved like that? And then he 900 00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,439 Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. Um, But they made it look so easy. Yeah, 901 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,560 Speaker 1: They're like, it just looks so so simple, and you know, 902 00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: I don't know how you doing it, but you're making 903 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: it look really easy. So I wonder if, yeah, there's 904 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,560 Speaker 1: an added irony of like it's a cake walk, but 905 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:08,400 Speaker 1: it's actually kind of hard, right, right, There's got to 906 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:13,200 Speaker 1: be something there about sort of being detached from white culture, 907 00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,400 Speaker 1: like so much of white performance at the time is 908 00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 1: based in its own history, Like I have to be 909 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:21,239 Speaker 1: building on this of the past, or I have to 910 00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:25,200 Speaker 1: even be reforming what we've already done, or or improving 911 00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,640 Speaker 1: what we've already you know, there's rules and things I 912 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,120 Speaker 1: have to follow, and these guys come in and they're like, 913 00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,240 Speaker 1: I don't need to do an I'm gonna try something different, 914 00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,440 Speaker 1: entirely different new styles that that break convention because I'm 915 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: not living in the same conventions as you. And that's 916 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,880 Speaker 1: why there shows are able to be so impressive, especially 917 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,640 Speaker 1: to white people. Who are like, well, I've never even 918 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: considered something different than what I'm used to before, and 919 00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,920 Speaker 1: it blows their minds. And then they have, you know, 920 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:56,920 Speaker 1: they have so many, so much incentive to put themselves 921 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,279 Speaker 1: fully into this work and really create something impressive that's 922 00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,880 Speaker 1: going to stand out and and earn them, you know, 923 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:06,200 Speaker 1: the recognition and the money that they deserve for it. 924 00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 1: So it just I feel like you can see the 925 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,759 Speaker 1: inherent drive that makes these shows so incredible. Yeah, yeah, 926 00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean they're putting ten times the amount of effort 927 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: and heart right and passion because I mean, partly because 928 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,600 Speaker 1: they have to, and partly because if they don't do it, 929 00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,399 Speaker 1: who's going to do it? You know, like, no one else, 930 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,239 Speaker 1: no one else is trying to put a bunch of 931 00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,520 Speaker 1: black shows up on Broadway but me. So let me 932 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:32,200 Speaker 1: do this and do it to the best of my ability, 933 00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,320 Speaker 1: which is pretty damn good. So you're gonna be blown 934 00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,440 Speaker 1: away by me, you know. I just think they're just 935 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: so cool. I love them, and I love seeing how 936 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,120 Speaker 1: they're little steps. You know, they really I don't know 937 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:48,160 Speaker 1: if they really had like a master plan or anything, 938 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:50,080 Speaker 1: but you can see their little steps and how they 939 00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,360 Speaker 1: kept continuing like every show they would push a little 940 00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,680 Speaker 1: bit more and a little bit more against what everyone 941 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,279 Speaker 1: wanted to see or what they thought they wanted to see, 942 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,759 Speaker 1: because they always loved what they were given. So even 943 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:04,920 Speaker 1: if it was like, you know, even if it was 944 00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,080 Speaker 1: a show making fun of white people, white people liked it. 945 00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: You know, they're just like, I love it. Whatever you 946 00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:11,520 Speaker 1: want to show, we I'm into it, you know. I 947 00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:14,000 Speaker 1: guess that's a question I have to was their audience 948 00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,800 Speaker 1: perpetually predominantly white? It depended on the venue, because the 949 00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:22,200 Speaker 1: venues were all segregated, of course, so early on they 950 00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:25,239 Speaker 1: performed only for black audiences, and then when they would 951 00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: get they would be like the George Sorry, Williams and 952 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:30,200 Speaker 1: Walker would be like the only black act on a 953 00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:34,000 Speaker 1: vaudevilla bill, and that would be for white audiences. In 954 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,200 Speaker 1: in England and Scotland, it was a lot of white people. 955 00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,520 Speaker 1: You know, it just kind of tended theaters. But they 956 00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: did play for white audiences, which is pretty impressive. Yeah, well, 957 00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:49,000 Speaker 1: and I wonder how different those shows were too. I'm 958 00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: gonna be like, all right, we can we don't have 959 00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:54,600 Speaker 1: to worry about the white people in the audience for 960 00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: this show. So we're can have a little more fun 961 00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,560 Speaker 1: or something. Maybe I do wonder that would make sense, 962 00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:01,279 Speaker 1: right if you were, if you were in a room 963 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,920 Speaker 1: that felt really safe. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you you 964 00:57:04,040 --> 00:57:07,319 Speaker 1: pushed the boundaries more and made different jokes. But yeah, 965 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,759 Speaker 1: I guess that brings us to the end of part 966 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,960 Speaker 1: one our episode, because at this point, you know, we 967 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:18,320 Speaker 1: got Williams and Walker there there. They can only go up, 968 00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 1: they can only go up from here. They're already like 969 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:24,919 Speaker 1: blown people's minds, and they have more to give, even 970 00:57:24,960 --> 00:57:26,880 Speaker 1: more to give. So we will tackle the rest of 971 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:32,160 Speaker 1: their career highs and lows, tragic lows, um in our 972 00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 1: next episode. And I really hope that you enjoyed this 973 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,720 Speaker 1: this part because I'm just in love with all of them, 974 00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:40,560 Speaker 1: and I want a movie so badly. I'm already trying 975 00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:43,400 Speaker 1: to like come up with a budget to produce a 976 00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:47,480 Speaker 1: play about them or something, because I don't understand why 977 00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,680 Speaker 1: there's not a million projects about them. They're so cool. Look, 978 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:53,280 Speaker 1: we're we're in a bit of a fight with HBO 979 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:58,120 Speaker 1: Max right now, okay, because they're making some insane decisions. Um, 980 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:03,160 Speaker 1: but I am telling we need so badly ridiculous romance 981 00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:05,720 Speaker 1: TV show at this point because I'm just like so 982 00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: many of these episodes and it's not this is not us, 983 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,160 Speaker 1: this is not like because of our skills or anything 984 00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: like that. It's just the stories we're digging up and 985 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:18,800 Speaker 1: have gone largely untold. Uh that just should absolutely be 986 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:28,919 Speaker 1: at minimum movies, and some of them need supernatural length 987 00:58:29,240 --> 00:58:36,040 Speaker 1: TV shows about Maximilian and carlst You're going to say that, 988 00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 1: but it's true. There's so many of them that I'm like, 989 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: I don't even need to be in it, you know 990 00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:43,360 Speaker 1: what I mean? An actor, of course, I'd love to 991 00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:45,920 Speaker 1: be in it, but to be well, we'll be producers. 992 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: We can do whatever we want, do whatever we want. 993 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: We'll have a cameo and she'll get the news with 994 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: Diana Banks as you know Overton Walker. Oh no, no, no, no, 995 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,200 Speaker 1: no no, I would never do that. No, this is 996 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,920 Speaker 1: not the James at go Our Oh my god, can 997 00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:05,160 Speaker 1: you believe? Well anyway, let's but yes, I hope that 998 00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:07,800 Speaker 1: you loved if you have heard of Aida, Overton Walker, 999 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:11,360 Speaker 1: George Walker, Burt Williams. Already love to hear from you, 1000 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,800 Speaker 1: and especially if we've got anything wrong, obviously love to 1001 00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:16,960 Speaker 1: hear that. Would love to learn more about them. We 1002 00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:20,000 Speaker 1: haven't had a corrections corner in some time, thank you 1003 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,200 Speaker 1: very much. That's what I am sitting on one. But 1004 00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:25,000 Speaker 1: that's just because we don't want to admit that we're wrong. Yeah, 1005 00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:31,640 Speaker 1: exactly know, because it'll fit into another episode. Um, but yeah, 1006 00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,480 Speaker 1: we haven't, so I'm very happy about that. But if 1007 00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,960 Speaker 1: there's anything and here, obviously please do you know, reach out. 1008 00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,440 Speaker 1: But if you've never heard of them, I hope that 1009 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,320 Speaker 1: you fell in love with them the way that I 1010 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 1: did and are on edge of your seat for the 1011 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:48,200 Speaker 1: end of their for the second part of their story, 1012 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,960 Speaker 1: because it's just as awesome and fascinating and Aida is 1013 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:57,120 Speaker 1: just the Beyonce of her time. She deserves many a documentary. 1014 00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah real, I hope you enjoyed the part of this. Um, 1015 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much for listening. Please reach out to 1016 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:05,720 Speaker 1: us and we love to hear from you guys. Our 1017 01:00:05,760 --> 01:00:08,560 Speaker 1: email is ridic Romance at gmail dot com. Let's right. 1018 01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,760 Speaker 1: Find us on Twitter and Instagram. I am at Oh great, 1019 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:15,640 Speaker 1: it's Eli and I'm at Diana Mite Boom and the 1020 01:00:15,720 --> 01:00:18,800 Speaker 1: show is at ridic Romance. Yeah, and drop us a 1021 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:22,160 Speaker 1: rating and a review on Apple podcast and we cannot 1022 01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,840 Speaker 1: wait for part two, so come back and hear the rest. Yeah, 1023 01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,080 Speaker 1: we'll catch you all then, love you bye. So long friends, 1024 01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,800 Speaker 1: it's time to go. Thanks so listening to our show? 1025 01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,440 Speaker 1: Tell your friends name's uncles in dance To listen to 1026 01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,320 Speaker 1: a show Ridiculous Role Nance