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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace and what has been billed

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Speaker 1: as an accident. Now a young mother is dead after

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Speaker 1: movie superstar Alex Baldwin, She's what he believes to be

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Speaker 1: a blank, but it is anything but a blank, and

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Speaker 1: now a young woman is dead. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: tragedy on the film set of a new Alec Baldwin movie,

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Speaker 1: and what police are calling a misfire of a prop

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Speaker 1: gun in Santa Fe, New Mexico. The Sheriff's off says

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Speaker 1: there has just confirmed it was Baldwin who fired the

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Speaker 1: prop gun that killed a forty two year old female

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Speaker 1: director of stotography, Helena Hutchins. The film's director, Joel Souza

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Speaker 1: was also hurt. This incident happened on the set of

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Speaker 1: The Western Rust. Now detectives are investigating what type of

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Speaker 1: projectile discharged from this gun. So far, no charges have

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Speaker 1: been filed. Earlier today, Alec Baldwin did post a picture

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Speaker 1: on social media from this set. You were just hearing

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Speaker 1: our Frank Christine Johnson was CBS what really happened. According

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Speaker 1: to reports, the assistant yelled out cold gun just before

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Speaker 1: the shooting, which means the gun was safe that it

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Speaker 1: was loaded with a blank. So how do we have

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Speaker 1: a woman dead, another film person injured? With me and

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Speaker 1: all star panel to make sense of it all? If

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Speaker 1: we can? With me Dominate Romano lawyer joining us out

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Speaker 1: of New York at Romano Law dot Com is specialty

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Speaker 1: entertainment law, and I can tell you somebody's going to

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Speaker 1: need a lawyer. Doctor Sherry Schortz forensics psychologists joining us.

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Speaker 1: Karen L. Smith, forensic expert, host of Shattered Soul's podcast

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Speaker 1: at Beerbuns Forensics dot com. Paul Zike joining us special guest,

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Speaker 1: former police commander and author of Stop Him From Killing

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Speaker 1: Them on Amazon, and he has lots of experience using

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Speaker 1: firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes like Terminator Salvation.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Michelle Dupre forensic pathologists, former medical examiner, author of

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Speaker 1: Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and a former police detective. But

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Speaker 1: first to Alexis Terresschuck Crime Online dot com investigative reporter

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Speaker 1: joining us from Hollywood. Alexis is what is getting folded

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Speaker 1: into the story? Right or wrong? Is Alec Baldwin's history,

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Speaker 1: his reputation for let me just say hot headedness, to

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Speaker 1: put it euphemistically, if he thought it was a blank

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Speaker 1: and it should have been a blank. Then history aside

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Speaker 1: it was an accident, But how can it really be

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Speaker 1: an accident when somebody loaded this prop gun with real bullets.

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Speaker 1: Now just started at the beginning, alexis, did you know

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Speaker 1: the search warrant has just been released and we learned

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Speaker 1: a lot from that, But you go ahead. So they

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Speaker 1: were on a set in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's

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Speaker 1: a western style movie. So they were sitting in a

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Speaker 1: church and an old church scene and Alec Baldwin was

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Speaker 1: sitting in one of the pews and he was practicing

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Speaker 1: what's called a cross draw, and so that would be

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Speaker 1: where the person they take your left hand and grabs

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Speaker 1: the gun out of the holster on the opposite him,

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Speaker 1: pulled it across to fire. He was practicing this movie

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Speaker 1: standing the cinematographer, which is the person that makes the

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Speaker 1: movie beautiful. This is the person that that films the scene.

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Speaker 1: She was standing in front of him, with the assistant

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Speaker 1: director staring let'm pary, with the director standing right behind her.

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Speaker 1: He was looking over her shoulder to see what it

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Speaker 1: would look like when Alex pulled the gun out. He

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Speaker 1: pulls it out of the side points it at her

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Speaker 1: to show them, pulls the trigger and it fires a

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Speaker 1: live round into her, hits her in the stomach and actually,

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Speaker 1: believe goes through her and grazes the director sitting standing

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Speaker 1: right behind her. Hush has pronounced dead at an Albuquerque

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Speaker 1: hospital after being rushed to the emergency room. You know what,

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Speaker 1: I always love playing nine one one calls for a

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Speaker 1: jury because it takes you back to what's really happening.

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Speaker 1: Not a description, not someone recounting what happened, but you're

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Speaker 1: hearing what really happened. Take a listen to the beginning

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Speaker 1: of that nine one one call the location of your emergency.

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Speaker 1: We need them that we need an ambulist out of

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Speaker 1: financer free glances right now. We've got two people shot

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Speaker 1: on a movie set accidentally, he said, someone was shot.

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Speaker 1: Two people active with gun shot at on movie sets

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Speaker 1: in and the free grants and in a minute often

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Speaker 1: act you with medical detected, don't need us. Who are

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Speaker 1: you calling? What are the roads? Do okay? People station

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Speaker 1: on emergency Financer free grants. People accident always shot on

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Speaker 1: a movie set, top gun. We need out the media

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Speaker 1: like Financa free grants. Come on, say on the phone

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Speaker 1: an organated. Your name, na name Mitchell, just Mitchell, wants

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Speaker 1: upon over. You're calling from five ups. Don't hang up? Okay,

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Speaker 1: hold on just one second. Somebody else's call good, everybody

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Speaker 1: should be we can help us. Director in our camera

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Speaker 1: managemel woman open shots. Now you hear repeatedly the word

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Speaker 1: accident accidentally throughout that. But is it an accident? Very

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Speaker 1: often when you have, for instance, a dui crash, people go, well,

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Speaker 1: it was an accident, But was it because the driver

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Speaker 1: chooses to go to a bar to order drinks, to drink,

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Speaker 1: to become legally intoxicated, to then get the car keys,

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Speaker 1: walk to the car, get in the car, crank up,

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Speaker 1: reverse and drive out onto the roads. That sounds pretty deliberate.

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Speaker 1: So is it an accident? Is it gross negligence? Well,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to more of that nine one one call?

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Speaker 1: Was it loaded with a real bullet? Or will I

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Speaker 1: cannot start you back? Okay? We have two injuries from

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Speaker 1: and Lille doune shot. Okay, we're getting them out there already.

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Speaker 1: Just dam a phone listening thing, okay, because be that

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Speaker 1: yelled at me at once, because that's in about revision.

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Speaker 1: You can't and yell at me, he's such a chested

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Speaker 1: gun think responsible danger now, Miami. No, no, No, I'm

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Speaker 1: a script of supervisor, rare home many before injuries true

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Speaker 1: that I know of. I was sitting, we were rehearsing,

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Speaker 1: and it went off and I ran out. We all

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Speaker 1: ran out. There were doubled over the ID and the

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Speaker 1: camera woman and the direct and the director. We're clearing

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Speaker 1: the red can to come back. We're back on their

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Speaker 1: back in the town. I called them, were back in

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Speaker 1: the west in town. Is there any serious bleeding? I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I ran out of the building, Blane, I

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Speaker 1: still have to go through these Okay, are they compere?

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Speaker 1: We all learned. I'm hearing a lot of discussion in

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Speaker 1: the background. You hear the speaker talking to somebody else

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Speaker 1: about someone yelling at her and lunch about script revision,

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Speaker 1: and she says she's supposed to check the gun. He's

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Speaker 1: responsible for what happened. No, No, I'm a script supervisor,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know a lot about movie sets. I

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Speaker 1: can tell you more about a murder trial, but I

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Speaker 1: know this. A script supervisor should not be checking dangerous

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Speaker 1: weapons crime stories with Nancy Grace with me as Paul

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Speaker 1: Zike not only former police commander and author to stop

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Speaker 1: him from killing them on Amazon, but Twitter, at workplace

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Speaker 1: threats with a screen actors guild, and he has experience

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Speaker 1: using firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes. I

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Speaker 1: could go on, but I think that sums it up

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Speaker 1: for today. Paul's like, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: What went wrong? Obviously there was a live bullet and

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Speaker 1: what should have been a prop gun. But what happened, Nancy?

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Speaker 1: The only explanation for this is a systemic breakdown and

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Speaker 1: systems that are in place to ensure that live ammunition

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Speaker 1: is not present on the set. Okay, now that was

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Speaker 1: a lot of words, Paul's. I think you're saying somebody

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Speaker 1: didn't do their job. Well, absolutely, somebody did not do

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Speaker 1: their job and catastrophically did not do that. There's no

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Speaker 1: reason whatsoever for live ammunition to be on the set

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Speaker 1: of any set, because these weapons are capable of firing

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Speaker 1: live rounds. They're not really prop guns. They're deadly weapons

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Speaker 1: being used as props. Okay, right there, I want to

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Speaker 1: make that distinction. You're absolutely right when look, I'm a

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer, I'm a legal expert. You're the expert in

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Speaker 1: this world. When I say prop gun, I mean they're

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Speaker 1: using it as a prop. But you're making a very fine, subtle,

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Speaker 1: but important distinction. A prop gun is a fake gun.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it even can shoot. Is that right? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: If you're talking about say a prop knife, correct, it

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Speaker 1: has a flat edge on it. It's incapable of cutting you.

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Speaker 1: These are things that are not deemed to be dangerous.

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Speaker 1: A prop gun is simply as utilized on set. Are

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Speaker 1: weapons that are capable of firing live ammunition and therefore

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Speaker 1: accidentally live ammunition could be mixed with blank rounds. You know,

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Speaker 1: given time, this is just a disaster waiting to happen.

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Speaker 1: They need to move to true prop guns that are

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Speaker 1: incapable of chambering live ammunition. Until that happens, this has

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Speaker 1: a very strong chance of repeating itself. Well, okay, tell

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Speaker 1: me this. Paul's eye, Guys, with me Paul's eye. He

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Speaker 1: is a former police commander, He's an author screen actors.

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Speaker 1: Guill And has experienced using blanks during live action movie

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Speaker 1: scenes where we all think they're shooting real guns. If

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Speaker 1: you suspend your disbelief in movies like his Terminator Salvation,

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Speaker 1: those aren't real guns, so why are they using a

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Speaker 1: real gun to start with Paul's eye And I mean,

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Speaker 1: to me, having been forced to handle so many guns

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Speaker 1: and so many homicides, what moron wouldn't make sure that

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Speaker 1: there were blanks in the gun. It's hard to imagine

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Speaker 1: that during the loading of the weapon that was not

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Speaker 1: viewed very strictly as a weapon is loaded. And also

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Speaker 1: there's a chain of custody issue here on the scene

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Speaker 1: of Terminator salvation. As we would go, we would conduct

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Speaker 1: the battle scene, if you will, in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the night. We would be handed directly from the armor

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Speaker 1: fully automatic weapons and magazines, fully loaded with blanks, and

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Speaker 1: we would head straight out to where the scene was

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Speaker 1: to be shot, and then we would engage in the scene,

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Speaker 1: you know, five ten minutes later, hand the weapons straight

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Speaker 1: back to the armor, all the ammunition back to the armor,

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Speaker 1: all the magazines back to the armor, and we would

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Speaker 1: not be able to touch those weapons again until the

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Speaker 1: next scene. So from a chain of cuptody standpoint and

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Speaker 1: went directly from the armor directly to my hand, you know,

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Speaker 1: the co actor's hands that were with me, and that

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Speaker 1: was maintained very strictly hold on Paul, I've got a

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Speaker 1: so key in everything you're saying because dominant Romano, high

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Speaker 1: profile lawyer, joining us out of New York's specialty entertainment law.

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Speaker 1: That's why Dominic's joining us today. Dominic, hold on. When

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Speaker 1: you heard Paul's I say China custody, I immediately thought

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Speaker 1: of a serial murderer that I prosecuted on one murder.

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Speaker 1: We could get him on one and there ended up.

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Speaker 1: I would say three weeks before trial. I was just

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Speaker 1: looking at the evidence and I noticed that the bag

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Speaker 1: that contained the evidence wasn't signed. It had never been

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Speaker 1: signed by the homicide cop that picked it up. It

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Speaker 1: was DNA, and there's blood from where it had been

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Speaker 1: taken and carried to the crime lab. It wasn't written

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Speaker 1: on the back. Did anybody tamper with it? No, he

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Speaker 1: just didn't put his initials. I'm like, oh, dear Lord

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Speaker 1: in Heaven, the chain is broken. This could be attacked

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Speaker 1: at trial. I had to go back out to the

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Speaker 1: jail stand there and look at this killer while we

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Speaker 1: pulled his blood again. Then I carried it with my

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Speaker 1: investigator myself back to the crime lab to have it retested.

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Speaker 1: Praise the Lord in heaven. It was his DNA. Long

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Speaker 1: story short, that's chain of custody. Your case can be lost.

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Speaker 1: You can lose a serial killer because money didn't keep

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Speaker 1: the chain to preserve the integrity of the trial. That's

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Speaker 1: what I thought when Paul Zike said chain of custody.

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Speaker 1: But did you also hear him say dominant romano? He

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Speaker 1: handed it back to the It sounds like he was

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Speaker 1: saying armor or armory. But I've been reading about this case.

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Speaker 1: It's an armor er armor err who is the person

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Speaker 1: in charge of all the weapons? Hey, somebody is either

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Speaker 1: going to jail? Are they going to lose their house

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Speaker 1: over a lawsuit? Dominant Romano? I think you're right, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: and I think Paul is absolutely right. Look in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, no one should ever be killed by a

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Speaker 1: gun on a film set. Period. Those are the words

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Speaker 1: of Brandon Lee's sister. Brandon Lee shot on a film

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Speaker 1: set in the early nineteen nineties. This should not happen.

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Speaker 1: There are established protocols, chains of commend Nancy said, someone

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Speaker 1: either going to jail or lose their house as very

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Speaker 1: likely here. I mean there is There appears to be

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Speaker 1: some serious gross negligence on that set to allow that

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Speaker 1: to That is the appearance. And I don't know what

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Speaker 1: evidence can come out to rebut that presumption a live

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Speaker 1: round in well, as Paul's Ike has corrected me, it's

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Speaker 1: not a prop gun. They were using real guns. Hey,

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Speaker 1: let me ask you a question, Paul's eye. Explain the

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Speaker 1: difference and what a blank looks like as opposed to

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Speaker 1: a live round a bullet. We're saying live rounds, we're

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Speaker 1: talking about a bullet. What's the difference. Can't you just

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Speaker 1: look at them and you can see the difference in

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Speaker 1: most cases, absolutely, it's very clear. You can see the

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Speaker 1: difference in some types of calibers, say two two three,

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Speaker 1: if you will, that's what an AAR fifteen would shoot.

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Speaker 1: The blanks are kind of crimped at the end to

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Speaker 1: almost look like there's a bullet on the end of them.

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Speaker 1: But any sort of trained professional whatsoever, when you're handling

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Speaker 1: a blank, you know what's a blank, and it's a bullet,

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Speaker 1: you know it's a bullet. The blank does not have

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Speaker 1: a lead projectile or a still projectile at the end

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Speaker 1: of the round, So at the end it's either flat

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Speaker 1: or slightly crimped to hold in the gunpowder, which you know,

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Speaker 1: the firearm usually needs the gunpowder to correctly function the

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Speaker 1: weapon and cycle the weapon, and it's one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons why blanks are used. Okay, paul'sy. I really respect you,

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Speaker 1: but you're gonna have to dummy down from me. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because I would have to put you through intensive training

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Speaker 1: before you take the stand. Because a lot of people

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Speaker 1: do not know what you just said. Just think about

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Speaker 1: it and think if there's a way you can say

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Speaker 1: it in more simple terms. What's the difference between a

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Speaker 1: blank and a lie bullet when you look at it?

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Speaker 1: Speak English Man in the meantime, Wait a minute, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned Brandon Lee, and you're absolutely right. We pulled sound

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Speaker 1: of other cases almost identical to this. Is this not

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Speaker 1: the first time it's happened, believe it or not? Tyler?

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Speaker 1: Could you roll our cut forty four? Let's follow up

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Speaker 1: on what Paul Zike said about Brandon Lee. The bullet

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Speaker 1: comes from the killed Brandon Ley. Some believe a piece

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Speaker 1: of a proper bullet without gunpowder, and it may have

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Speaker 1: been left accidentally in the gun blank was fired at Brandon.

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Speaker 1: Some feel it's shot out the proper bullet, mortally wounding him.

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Speaker 1: Though there was an accident waiting to happen. The Crow

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Speaker 1: crewmember we spoke with says that there were many opportunities

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Speaker 1: for an accident to happen. Are the working conditions on

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Speaker 1: the set of The Crow particularly bad? Treely long hours,

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Speaker 1: eighteen hour days back to back at times, pushing ninety

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Speaker 1: hours a week, six day weeks is way too much.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that that overwork, that exhaustion might have

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Speaker 1: resulted in this accident? Jajcautions, all of them were definitely

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Speaker 1: not followed. It could have been prevented, did with better management.

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Speaker 1: The publicist for the movie The Crow denies that the

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Speaker 1: working conditions were insane. Certainly everyone was very tired and

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Speaker 1: exhausted from the shoe, but these are professionals and they're

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Speaker 1: used to working conditions like this. Okay, guys, you were

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Speaker 1: hearing our friends and Inside Edition, and I want to

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Speaker 1: follow up on what we're just hearing with Alexus terres Chuck.

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Speaker 1: I played that sound for a reason, alexis because on

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Speaker 1: the Alec Baldwin set of Rust there apparently were problems

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Speaker 1: with working conditions. A group of the crew had walked out,

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Speaker 1: I think the night before the claiming that they had

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Speaker 1: bad hotels. They were an hour away from a hotel

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Speaker 1: or motel, and if they worked late into the night,

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Speaker 1: they have to drive through I guess the desert, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were actually sleeping in their cars overnight.

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Speaker 1: That's just some of the complaints I've heard. But what

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Speaker 1: are the other complaints, if any, on the Alec Baldwin

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Speaker 1: movie set. Well, there have been complaints that things were

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Speaker 1: not safe. Quote, but one of the person is being

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Speaker 1: directly blamed for a lot of the unpage. When you

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Speaker 1: were listening to the nine one one calling, you said,

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Speaker 1: you heard the woman saying that he was yelling at

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Speaker 1: me things like that. This is the assistant director that

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Speaker 1: they're talking about. And this is the assistant director, David Halls,

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Speaker 1: who handed the gun to Baldwin instead this is a

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Speaker 1: cold gun. So what the people on the set were

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Speaker 1: saying is that Halls was not a responsible person. He

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Speaker 1: was very angry, he was making the job very difficult

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Speaker 1: for everybody to do, and they didn't trust him. Wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, you're saying David Halls was an assistant director. Yes, okay,

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Speaker 1: Well what about the honorer. Isn't she the one responsible

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Speaker 1: for all the weapons and the blanks or the bullets. Guys,

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Speaker 1: take another listen to our cut forty three. This is

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Speaker 1: about practically the same thing happening before. Listen. It was

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Speaker 1: here at the Carroll Co. Studios in Wilmington, North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: that actor Brandon Lee was filming The Crow. Ironically, the

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Speaker 1: film is about a man who dies and comes back

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Speaker 1: to life to advanish his death. Shortly after midnight last Tuesday,

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Speaker 1: Brandon Lee was preparing to film a routine action scene

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Speaker 1: in script for him to get shot at as he

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Speaker 1: walked toward door carrying a bag of groceries. Michael Massey,

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Speaker 1: the actor doing the shooting, is reportedly devastated by Lee's

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Speaker 1: death and remains in seclusion. The gunny was using was

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Speaker 1: supposed to be loaded with blanks. The camera's rolled, Brandon

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Speaker 1: Lee was performing for the last time. Literally's heart stopped

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Speaker 1: and efforts to resuscitate him were unsuccessful. Wednesday afternoon, Brandon

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Speaker 1: Lee was pronounced dead. The autopsy revealed some shocking information.

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Speaker 1: The A forty four caliber bullet was removed from Lee's body.

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Speaker 1: Detectives are proceeding with the investigation. Time stories with Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace straight out to Karen el Smith or his expert

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Speaker 1: host of Shattered Souls podcast beerbos dot com. Why you

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Speaker 1: and Karen Smith, Well, we deal a lot with forensics

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Speaker 1: in physics. When we do a reconstruction, we use snippets

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Speaker 1: of time and sometimes that can be split seconds, and

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Speaker 1: this includes trajectories of projectiles, and this trajectory can generally

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Speaker 1: be explained by the reporting. Alec Baldwin was reported to

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Speaker 1: be sitting at a church pew to a line of

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Speaker 1: camera angle when the gun was fired. Alina Hutchins then

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Speaker 1: collapsed on the floor and Joel Suza was struck in

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Speaker 1: the clavicles. That's an upward trajectory, which means both Hutchins

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Speaker 1: and Susa were standing up when the event occurred. The projectile,

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Speaker 1: now that has yet to be officially named as a

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Speaker 1: Speciftic caliber bullet or as something else that came out

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Speaker 1: of the gun muzzle that perporated Helena's body and subsequently

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Speaker 1: struck Joel. Now, in order for that to happen, the

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Speaker 1: kinetic energy, which is energy as the result of motion,

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Speaker 1: would be very high. We're dealing with mass or the

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Speaker 1: amount of matter in an object and energy dispersion. Guns

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Speaker 1: carry high volume of energy in a small space and

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Speaker 1: that from my experience, it tells me that it was

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Speaker 1: something other than just the paper or plastic watting from

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Speaker 1: a blank round. That needs to be confirmed by the

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Speaker 1: emmy and the investigators. But there are reports of live

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Speaker 1: ammunition bullets being on the set and that particular gun

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Speaker 1: allegedly being used for target practice that morning. There's a

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Speaker 1: lot of questions that needs to be answered by the

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Speaker 1: investigators and the m again for the set being used

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Speaker 1: as target practice. Paul Zyke, that shouldn't be that you've

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Speaker 1: got crew members out shooting bottles. I think that that's

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Speaker 1: coming out with live bullets and use that same gun

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Speaker 1: for a sane and a church full of people, And Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I just wanted to clarify the prior point. So very simply,

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Speaker 1: a blank is a shellcasing with gunpowder in it with

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Speaker 1: no bullet. A bullet is the same exact thing with

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Speaker 1: more gunpowder and a a live bullet at the end

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Speaker 1: of it that is made to travel through the barrel

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Speaker 1: and exit the weapon. Back to what you were saying

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Speaker 1: at the cardinal rule that's been broken, whether you're whether

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Speaker 1: you're involved in police training or you're involved in a

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Speaker 1: movie set, keeping live ammunition away from weapons that fire

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Speaker 1: live ammunition and keeping weapons at fire blanks away from

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Speaker 1: those instances. And when you mix those two together, the

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Speaker 1: odds of somebody having a spare live round in one

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Speaker 1: of their pockets or you name it is super high,

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Speaker 1: and it sounds very sloppy, and it just opens the

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Speaker 1: door for terrible things to happen. And that's where the

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Speaker 1: systemic breakdown and that controlled environment Jelly and Paul's like,

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Speaker 1: you're right. Super sloppy is one way to put it.

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Speaker 1: Gross negligence or unintentional murder is another way to put it.

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Speaker 1: I think I hear dominant romano jumping in go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Basically it's a catastroph miscalculations. I think two people here

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Speaker 1: should be folks. We should focus on one is the

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Speaker 1: armor like this is only according to reports her second movie,

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Speaker 1: The Chairs Read and the assistant director Day Halls, who

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Speaker 1: you mentioned before. According to reports, he was fired from

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Speaker 1: a twenty nineteen production of Freedom's Past. I don't remember

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Speaker 1: suffered a minor injury. Whoa whoa white white You got

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Speaker 1: me drinking from the fire hut hydro, which is not

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Speaker 1: a bad thing. It's too much at once. Old fly

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Speaker 1: in the world, would you have somebody that was fired

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Speaker 1: off another similar job handling your weapon. Okay, is that

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Speaker 1: what you just said? Dominic? Okay? Almost so almost the

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Speaker 1: Armorers twenty four years old, the person handling the weapons.

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Speaker 1: It's only her second film. She was just in a

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Speaker 1: podcast last month where she said, you know, she's a

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Speaker 1: bit nervous about her film, but it went well. While

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Speaker 1: there is apparently a famous armor okay, so we have

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Speaker 1: that an experienced armor. Number two. We have the assistant director,

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Speaker 1: the add Poles. Apparently, according to a report, he was

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Speaker 1: fired from the twenty nineteen production. The movie was freedom

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Speaker 1: passed after crew members suffered guess what a minor injury

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Speaker 1: when a gun unexpectedly discharged M dominant romano. The words

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Speaker 1: similar transactions are jumping to mind. I mean, if there

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Speaker 1: is a trial, you know that previous incident is going

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Speaker 1: to come in. I mean, this solidifies my thought that

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Speaker 1: this is not an accident, because an accents when you

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Speaker 1: totally don't see it coming. It's just like, ah the blue.

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Speaker 1: But if this guy, if it's correct, the ad had

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Speaker 1: a previous incident where somebody was shot on a set.

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Speaker 1: Even if it was a minor injury, then you should

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Speaker 1: have seen you either new or should have known. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree with that dominant romano. They're going to be

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Speaker 1: some serious questions to be asked, and there have to

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Speaker 1: be answers, and if they're if we don't have good answers,

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Speaker 1: someone is either going to be involved in a very

404
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Speaker 1: expensive lawsuit or depending on what they knew and when

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Speaker 1: they knew it and how careless they were, probably facing

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Speaker 1: some time. The other issue you alluded to earlier is

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Speaker 1: you know, cost cutting. It it's rampant in the industry

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Speaker 1: right now. We're coming out of a pandemic, and the

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Speaker 1: production company's decision not to book the crew hotel rooms

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Speaker 1: near the actual set, but to have them travel an

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Speaker 1: hour in each direction to get to and from their accommodation,

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Speaker 1: to have long hours where people walked off the set

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Speaker 1: earlier that day in protest. So this is a combination

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Speaker 1: what turned out to be a lethal combination at catastrophic

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Speaker 1: calculation on the part of the production company. Well, you

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Speaker 1: just said a mouthful, all in a good way, betroying

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Speaker 1: the armor or being an experience the ad thing a

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Speaker 1: prior similar transaction and budget cuts problems amongst the crew.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cuts six from our friends

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Speaker 1: at News Nation. Now let's start with the people responsible

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Speaker 1: for handling a gun. There are no ubiquitous rules across

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Speaker 1: all film sets, but generally there are some guidelines that

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Speaker 1: they follow, and here into a budget. Budget usually plays

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Speaker 1: a big role. On many sets, there are no fewer

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Speaker 1: than three people responsible for monitoring a weapon. A prop

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Speaker 1: master froms in charge of all props, is often supported

427
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 1: by a safety officer and a stunt coordinator, and depending

428
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: on the state, you may also need to bring in

429
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: an armorer whose only job is handling weapons. An armorer

430
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: is required by New Mexico state law. So the point is,

431
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 1: just like Dominant Romano was saying, budget plays a big role, Well,

432
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: you know what, you can tell that to the victim

433
00:27:49,320 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 1: and the victim's child and husband. Prime Stories with Nancy

434
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: Grace to you. Doctor Michelle Dupree, forensic pathologist for a

435
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide. I can

436
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: go on and on, doctor Dupree. I'm sure you, like myself,

437
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 1: have had to handle weapons in front of juries, and

438
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: I learned this from watching a pro try cases. I

439
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,680
Speaker 1: would always pick the gun up, holding it face down

440
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: with a barrel, pointing to the ground so the jury

441
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: or anyone else would not be alarmed. What you don't

442
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: want to do is scare your jury. I would walk

443
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 1: in front of the jury holding the weapon, nose down,

444
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 1: open the chamber, let them see me check it, hold

445
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: it up like I was examining it, you know, at

446
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: my eye level, so they can see that it was empty,

447
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: and then shut it and then give it to the

448
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: witness without fell. Even if it was a weapon that

449
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: I knew was inoperable, that was sp Why would that

450
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: not occur on a movie set? But describe how you're

451
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: supposed to handle weapons exactly, Nancy. You described it perfectly.

452
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: That is exactly what you should do. And if you're

453
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 1: giving a weapon to someone else, normally you have the

454
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: chamber open so that they can also see, and then

455
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: you both check it and know that it's empty or

456
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: that the blanks are in it. Tell me what you

457
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: can discern about what Karen Smith, forensics expert, just told

458
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: us about the injuries. What happened, Nancy. Even though these

459
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: are quote prop guns or blanks, they can still obviously

460
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: do devastating damage the watting or whatever they are filled with,

461
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: even in a blink. But this was not a blink.

462
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 1: This was an actual projectile. As we know, you mean

463
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: a bullet speak English cliber a bullet. Yes, yes, this

464
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 1: is a bullet. And the caliber of that bullet of

465
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: the gun is what is going to determine how much

466
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: damage has done. As she explained, the higher the caliber,

467
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: the more energy in that bullet, and so the more

468
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: damage done to the physical body. And of course the

469
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 1: location where that bullet enters the body in this case

470
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: was devastating. You know, another issue to doctor Sherry Schwartz,

471
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: I've been on a lot of TV sets, obviously in

472
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: movie sets for you know, cameos or some legal issue.

473
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you that, to Sherry Schwartz, a

474
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: movie set takes on a whole. It's like you're in

475
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: a different world. Like when you go to the movies

476
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: and you sit down and it goes dark, your mind

477
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: takes you there when you're on a movie set. I've

478
00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: never been on a single movie set that went on time.

479
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: You go to one or two o'clock in the morning,

480
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 1: it's pitch dark outside. You keep going until you get

481
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 1: the shot or you finish the scene or whatever. It's

482
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: called a movie world. I think that there is a

483
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: suspended fear. You think you're at a movie set, like

484
00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 1: when you go to Disneyland or when you're on vacation

485
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: on a cruise ship. You suspend your normal thinking it

486
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: doesn't seem real and you're not thinking, wow, there's a gun,

487
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: I could get shot because it's quote just a movie.

488
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: It's not real. How do we let me just say,

489
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: suspend our disbelief, suspend rational rules of functioning when you're

490
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: on a movie set or in a movie. You know,

491
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: like in a movie is where there's some nut with

492
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: a gun and you hear a sound, but you don't

493
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 1: think it's real because you're in a movie. What happens

494
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: in the human mind? Doctor Sherry, Well, when you don't

495
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: think that something is actually real, then you would not

496
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: calculate accurately what the potential risks are, right, And so

497
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: there is this gun on the set, but everybody thinks, oh,

498
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,480
Speaker 1: it's just make believe. We're setting this up to film it.

499
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 1: Nobody's actually going to get hurt. And so what happens

500
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: mentally is that you underestimate what the potential risks are.

501
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: And what happened here is an egregious underestimation. Right. So

502
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: for the rest of us. It's to make believes maybe

503
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: even for the actor, they know that they're just playing

504
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: a role, and everybody around them might know they're playing

505
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: a role. But there are people on the set who

506
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 1: are responsible for that gun and for taking that proper

507
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: care and knowing what the potential risks are. By g you,

508
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: Alexis Teresia Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, you have

509
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: heard Dominant Romano. Paul's like, well, everyone on the panel

510
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: weighing in. But apparently there were a lot of problems

511
00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 1: and a lot of disgruntled crew members understand that one

512
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: of the motels they had set them up to stay

513
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: overnight was at a place where the homeless and there

514
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 1: were drug addicts there. They were afraid to stay there.

515
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: What was going on on the set, But it seems

516
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 1: like what they were trying to do was make this

517
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: film as cheaply as possible. Understandable, but they were putting

518
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: people's lives at risk. It was fiftyse hotels were fifty

519
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: miles away, so after working fourteen hour days, the crew

520
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: was having to drive over an hour to get to

521
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: their hotel. Then they would have to be back within

522
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: like six hours, so they would get almost no sleep

523
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: at all. But they were also saying that things were

524
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,440
Speaker 1: just not safe. There had been an incident a few

525
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,959
Speaker 1: days earlier that one of the pop guns again prop gun,

526
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: real gun, had been accidentally fired, and so the crew

527
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: had been complaining to the producer, saying, this is not

528
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: a safe working environment, and they walked off the set.

529
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: And so Hollywood is very much a union in the business,

530
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: but the producers hired non union people to replace him.

531
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: These non union people that are not the people. That's

532
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 1: not the armorer, and it's not the assistant director. And

533
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: everybody's been talking. There is a line of protocol. You

534
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: have so many steps in the line of defense, so

535
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: that when this gun got to Alice Baldwin, at least

536
00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: two other people were responsible for saying that it wasn't loaded.

537
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: I mean, didn't somebody even scream out cold gun? Yes?

538
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: I mean they have to yell it out, you know

539
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,760
Speaker 1: what you were just saying. I know so many times

540
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: for different shoots. I don't know who he is that

541
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: carries that comes over and they have to do it

542
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: a certain way, they have to say a certain thing,

543
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 1: and they say it really loudly. I don't know why,

544
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: but I'm sure there's a reason for it, just like

545
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: they would yell out cold gun and everybody would hear it.

546
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: But I guess they yelled it out without checking Alexis.

547
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: And there are reports that yes, So there were three

548
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: guns that were set up and they were put on

549
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: a table outside the church set. And this is because

550
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: of COVID nineteen protocols, so not a lot of people

551
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: are in the if it's an enclosed set, they're not

552
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: there three guns. So the assistant director picked it up.

553
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 1: Dave Halls as the other best said, you know, have

554
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: a history of a lot of accidents on sets, and

555
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 1: handed it to Boldwin and he is the one that

556
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: yelled out cold gun. There's no nobody has said there's

557
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 1: so many people have spoken to the police on the set,

558
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: so many of the other crew members, and they said

559
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: they didn't know whether it actually was empty or not.

560
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: And these guns were used at lunch. This is a

561
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: post lunch break, so they broke for lunch at twelve thirty.

562
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: They come back after lunch. During that lunch time, there

563
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: are reports that the crew members were using this gun

564
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 1: and other guns to shoot beer bottles out in the

565
00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 1: desert area and using it as target practice, so there

566
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 1: could have been alive and there said there was lots

567
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: of live ammunition. Nobody was told they couldn't bring live

568
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: ammunition on set. That's another thing that that what do

569
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: you need live round on set? That's a big problem here.

570
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 1: And I think I would that Paul jump in. I'd

571
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,840
Speaker 1: like to jump in there. It's it's it's simply a

572
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: breakdown of the security of the scene. The only people

573
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: there that our arms should be security personnel. And you know,

574
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: in my years, my decade of fighting to keep workplaces

575
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: safe and to stop stalking offenders from killing victims, I

576
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: can tell you one thing, and that is nobody thinks

577
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: the unthinkable is going to happen. It's it's a matter

578
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: of just humans thinking. They think that, well, that happened

579
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: to somebody else, that didn't happen to me. And because

580
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: this is somewhat of a rare occurrence on a set,

581
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,920
Speaker 1: people got laxed, They got lack of daisical about fundamental

582
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,239
Speaker 1: when it comes to shooting a scene such as this.

583
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: And just like at any workplace, this is a workplace

584
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 1: out in the middle of the desert, just like it

585
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: would be in a and an office building, those protocols

586
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: broke down and people at work attempting to do the

587
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: right thing for the right reasons, had a catastrophic, devastating

588
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: thing happened. Because we as human beings think, well, if

589
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: it hasn't happened, it won't happen. And that's just not

590
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: the reality of life when it comes to dangerous events.

591
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: You know, Alec Baldwin is a great, great actor. A

592
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: lot of people don't like him because he rubs him

593
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: the wrong way with his jokes, with his actions with

594
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, just a history of comments and behavior that

595
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: irritates some people. But I can tell you this, when

596
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,800
Speaker 1: I saw the photos of him literally doubled over in grief,

597
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that was acting. I think that was real.

598
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 1: Who bears the fault of the death of a beautiful

599
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 1: young woman. I'm sure her husband a little child are

600
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: looking for answers. We wait as just as sun falls

601
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray's crime Story, signing off good Bye Friend,