1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: This whole experience really made me doubt my abilities as 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:09,879 Speaker 1: a parent and my self as a person. Basically every 3 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: aspect of my identity that I had spent so long 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: trying to find it like, shook everything. 5 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about 6 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 7 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: change everything. This is the story of an entire community, 8 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: one group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and 9 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later, 10 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: but for the majority of this episode, we're going to 11 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: tell it through one person's perspective. We'll call our Sarah. 12 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 2: Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer 13 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: in Vermont. She exudes cool, She's covered in tattoos and rocks, 14 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: a shaved head. 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: And never have to have a bad hair to I 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: just don't ever have hair. 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 2: She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child 18 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 2: in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 2: to make ends meet, and her father that old addiction. 20 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 2: Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about 21 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 2: organized religion, even the Christian undertones, and cartoons like veggietails 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 2: made her parents uncomfortable. 23 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,040 Speaker 1: I remember a conversation where my parents were like going 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: back and forth and they were like, well, it's just vegetables. 25 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: It seems fine, even though there's the religious stuff. My 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: parents were pretty anti religion. 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 2: But when Sarah was around ten, her parents' religious beliefs 28 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: began to shift. 29 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: My dad kind of got warmed up to it when 30 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: he was in Alcoholics Anonymous, and then less a year 31 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: later we were completely embroiled in a cult. 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: It started when her mom was recruited to join a 33 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: local church. 34 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: They were really nice to us, They were really supportive 35 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: of my mom. She made friends, and she struggles a 36 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 1: lot to make friends, and so she felt very at 37 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 1: home there. And my dad kind of hit it off 38 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: with a couple of the other dads and it seemed 39 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: like a really good community. Before we knew it, we 40 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:33,079 Speaker 1: were involved in Quiverful. 41 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 2: Quiverfool is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and 42 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 2: raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy 43 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: in their new church, and they became more involved in 44 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: Sarah's life than ever. 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 1: I just turned at eleven at this time, so this 46 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: was an improvement. It seemed like when people said like 47 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: this is the right path, it seemed believable to me. 48 00:02:56,680 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 2: This church became her new normal. 49 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: The services were a little bit intense, as like crying 50 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: and speaking in tongues and stuff like that, but I 51 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: was like, okay, well, sometimes they had a pot luck after. 52 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: Four and eleven year old, the pot luck desserts like 53 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 2: jello were enticing. 54 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: Then I started kind of moving beyond the jello and 55 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: we all got baptized, and then there was like purity stuff, 56 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:29,239 Speaker 1: a lot of purity stuff. So I pledged my virginity 57 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 1: to the church and my dad and it was almost 58 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 1: like a wedding. These pretty white dresses and go up 59 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: to an altar and it literally looks like a mass wedding, 60 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: but it's like little girls all marrying their dad. But 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: I was like eleven, so I was like, oh my god, 62 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: I get to dress fancy and have a little present 63 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: and more jello, so yay. 64 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 2: The standards around purity were very high. 65 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: It was normal for people in our community to save 66 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: their first kiss for marriage. 67 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,040 Speaker 2: Sarah's naturally curious, and that was tough to navigate in 68 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: this community. 69 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: Between me not having been raised in this environment and 70 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 1: having like a rebellious spirit is what I always got told, 71 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: just mostly just because I asked a lot of questions. 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,359 Speaker 1: It really put a bad light on our family. 73 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: Eventually she fell in line. 74 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: It's definitely been like kind of hammered in there to 75 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: trust authority completely, like there's a reason they're in this position. 76 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: I was totally and like I believed that fully. 77 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed 78 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 2: a bad kid by church standards. 79 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: She got kind of stuck with the bad kids. Everyone 80 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 1: said that they were always pulling shenanigans and they were 81 00:04:56,520 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: too loud, which they were just normal kids looking back, 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: we're just like nine year olds. 83 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 2: Some families in their church had as many as twenty children. 84 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 2: For the church, big families served a higher purpose. 85 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: You are basically trying to birth an army for the 86 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: end times, which you're told could come at any time. 87 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 1: So it already feels too late because it takes, like, 88 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: you know, a couple of years for kids to be 89 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: able to grow up. So they're like, you got to 90 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: have babies now. 91 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 2: Even though they already had six kids. Sarah's mom felt 92 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 2: pressure to grow their family, but she was struggling to 93 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 2: have more. 94 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,039 Speaker 1: She was getting lamed for her issues with not being 95 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: able to have like a ton of kids. It seemed 96 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: like her fault for having a rebellious and like worldly family. 97 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,039 Speaker 2: The church believed that God blessed you with as many 98 00:05:49,120 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 2: kids as you could handle, so if a family was 99 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 2: struggling to have more children, it was because their existing 100 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,359 Speaker 2: kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God, 101 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 2: Sarah's mom tried to contryll her kids, and she did 102 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: it by following the church teaching. 103 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 1: You start corporal punishment at birth. If they bite you 104 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: while they're nursing, you pull their hair. If they don't 105 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: have hair, you use the switch. 106 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: Sarah was only twelve when her mom asked her to 107 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 2: use a switch on her newborn sister. 108 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: I'm also a kid, and no matter how much on 109 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 1: doctrination there was, I just could not bring myself to 110 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: do that. It felt like some Stanford prison experiment kind 111 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: of thing. 112 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: This was a defining moment for Sarah. 113 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: At that point, I started questioning, is it because I'm 114 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 1: not faithful enough, is it because I shouldn't be a mother, 115 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: or is this just wrong? And that was the first 116 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: time I had considered it might be wrong. 117 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented and 118 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 2: the strictly enforced gender roles. 119 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: One of the weird things about Quiverfil is like boys 120 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 1: will be boys until they're forty five, but girls are 121 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: future mothers in training from day one. 122 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: When Sarah was fourteen, she started going to public school. 123 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: This was actually a form of punishment, but there she 124 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: met a new friend who opened her eyes to another 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: way of living, and her friend's mom was worried about 126 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: Sarah's home life. 127 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:38,679 Speaker 1: They were so concerned and rightfully so she basically told 128 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: me to come and live with them, and she would 129 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: lie to my mom about where I was if she asked, 130 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: My home was not that invested. To be honest, you 131 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: didn't really come looking. 132 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: Soon Sarah stopped coming home altogether. 133 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: And so I ended up moving in with this family 134 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: and they really did everything in their power to help 135 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: me out. So I do refer to her as my 136 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: foster mom, even though I was never officially in the 137 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: foster care system. 138 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom. 139 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: She wanted me to have like good role models and 140 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: got me involved in the community in a Jewish community. 141 00:08:17,840 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: She was never pushy about anything, and there were really 142 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: good role models. Jewish people don't proselytize, which I found 143 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: very strange. I was like, are they trying to convert me? 144 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: And she's like, they don't want you to convert, that's 145 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:35,320 Speaker 1: not a thing. They just want to give you some food. 146 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh cool. 147 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith. 148 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,479 Speaker 2: They nurtured her natural curiosity. 149 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: That was what was most appealing to me. I had 150 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: a million questions and they were excited to answer the 151 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: questions with more questions. There was never like a shut up, 152 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: don't ask that. It was like, so, this is three 153 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: different opinions that most people have. My opinion, what do 154 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: you think? 155 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd 156 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: fallen behind in school. 157 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,679 Speaker 1: My parents had taken me out of school in fourth grade, 158 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: and so from fourth grade to the end of sophomore year, 159 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: I had no education. 160 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 2: On her eighteenth birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she 161 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: decided to leave her foster family's home too. 162 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: I didn't want to burden this family, so I left 163 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: them as well. I hadn't been taught how to live 164 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: with normal people. It was just like time for me 165 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: to go, but they were instrumental in my running away 166 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 1: from the cult. And so I left and I went 167 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: to the nearest city and I was homeless for a year. 168 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: At first I was on the street, and then I 169 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: was in a shelter. For the first few months. It 170 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: was really rough. And then I got a job at 171 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: tattoo Studio and I became a body fiercer there through 172 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: an apprenticeship. It was like my passion. It was so 173 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: much fun. 174 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 2: She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She 175 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 2: still wanted faith in her life. Somehow, being exposed to 176 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 2: Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert. 177 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,440 Speaker 1: It gave me a sense of community and a sense 178 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: of stability that I think I was missing. And like, 179 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:32,079 Speaker 1: this very kind group of people who want to support 180 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: you and you don't owe them anything for that. That's 181 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: really nice for me. It's comforting, Like I don't like 182 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: go to bed wondering if I'm going to wake up 183 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 1: still part of my only community. 184 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 2: She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul. 185 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 2: She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh. 186 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 1: He had like mostly pictures of frogs, but they were 187 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: like from Google with like the water work. I was like, 188 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 1: that's really strange, and so I was curious and started 189 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: talking to him, and he was like hilarious. 190 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: For their first date, he brought her a surprise. 191 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: He brought me a Stuart Little two poster as a gift. 192 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 1: I was like, what a weird guy. 193 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: They dated casually for about six months, going on dates 194 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 2: when they both had time and money to spare. 195 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,520 Speaker 1: That was until the day of COVID lockdown in twenty twenty. 196 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,439 Speaker 1: I found out I was pregnant. 197 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,839 Speaker 2: As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew 198 00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 2: she would keep the baby. 199 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: I have terrible pcos, so I did not think I 200 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: was able to get pregnant, which is part of why 201 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: I wanted to keep the pregnancy so bad. 202 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul. 203 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 2: After she took a few minutes to process the news, 204 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:51,440 Speaker 2: she called him. 205 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: Both of us were just kind of crying and just 206 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: like trying to figure out what to say to the 207 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: other person. And so I told him, like, I want 208 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 1: to be a mom, like really bad. And I was like, 209 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: you don't have to have anything to do with this. 210 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: But he really wanted to be like a present and 211 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: good dad. 212 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 2: After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level, 213 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 2: she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking 214 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 2: care of young children her whole life. 215 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: I felt very comfortable with my ability to keep babies alive. 216 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: It's like, I've done this a million times. I know 217 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: exactly what I'm doing. 218 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 2: But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy 219 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 2: or nurturing, and she knew one thing for certain, she 220 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised. 221 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:48,079 Speaker 2: She would have to find another way. She would need resources. 222 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: Being an emotionally present and caring parent who's breezing a person. 223 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: I was like, oh my god, I have no idea 224 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,439 Speaker 1: what I'm doing, Like I need help now. 225 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 2: Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance 226 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: to mold a new life and a safe, supportive family. 227 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: It started with her and Paul. 228 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: I had like dated a couple of people before, but 229 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 1: I had not had a partner. 230 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: She would learn the meaning of true partnership during pregnancy. 231 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: I did have a super high risk pregnancy, and I 232 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: had to be on bed rest from like week twelve. 233 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: It was awful. It was terrible. I had to quit 234 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: my job. He had to support me and take care 235 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: of me, like physically put me in the shower and 236 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: help me shower, and like he was amazing. He bought 237 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: me a kindle, loaded it up with like every book 238 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: her and he would like put my socks on me 239 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: so my feet didn't get cold, so I didn't have 240 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: to like kick the blanket around to try to get 241 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: back over me. And he would do his work in 242 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: the bedroom whenever possible, so that I just had like 243 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: a person nearby. He just took amazing. 244 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 2: Care of me, and she learned by his example. 245 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: So has that really turned things for me? I was like, okay, 246 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: a successful relationship between friends, between partners, between parents and 247 00:14:36,520 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: children is like a huge mutual effort to make the 248 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: other person feel cared for. 249 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 2: She reached out to her friends who had young kids, 250 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles 251 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 2: she admired. 252 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: They had both suggested that I join some gentle parenting 253 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: groups on Facebook. 254 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a 255 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: lot of time on her hands. She brows group after 256 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: group until she found one that really resonated and it 257 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: was a huge community. 258 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: I think at the height there was like a couple 259 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 1: hundred thousand, and everybody in there, it seemed, was like 260 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: focused on the same goal that I was, where like 261 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: raising a functional, confident, compassionate person. And I was like, Okay, 262 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: this seems like a really good place for me to be. 263 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: She started spending hours every day in the group, reading 264 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: every post and asking questions of her own. 265 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: I was trying to absorb every single molecule of gentle 266 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: kind parenting advice that I could fit in my brain. 267 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: In the course of nine months. 268 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 2: Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed 269 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: a pattern. 270 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: Almost everyone in the group was trying to break some 271 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: kind of cycle of like abuse or neglect, and a 272 00:15:59,840 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: lot of people were like, my childhood was hellish, and 273 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm never letting that happen. So it just seemed like 274 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: a really supportive community for people who were trying to 275 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: do better for their kids. 276 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 2: For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group. 277 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 2: It was personal. She was a strange from her family, 278 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 2: so this group became a real community, supporting her through 279 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: pregnancy and celebrating with her. 280 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: With groups based around cycle breaking, some people don't have 281 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: a family to celebrate with them, and so we would 282 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: be that family. A person you don't even know would 283 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: be like, oh my gosh, after four years of trying, 284 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: we're finally pregnant and we got our first soldier sound 285 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: and it's twins, and we would all be like, oh 286 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: my god. Genuinely, I was so excited for these people. 287 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved 288 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 2: every post and enforced the community guidelines. 289 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: So the admins in the group, they were like moderating, 290 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: approving posts, but they were also kind of like leaders 291 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: in the group, because you know, people come there with 292 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 1: crisis level stuff, so if you're really struggling with something, 293 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: they're the first people to see the post because they 294 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: approve it and they really go out of their way 295 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: to make sure that people are safe. 296 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins, 297 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: so we'll call Becky. 298 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: She had posted a lot about being a Jewish parent. 299 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: Becky was a huge presence in the group. 300 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: She was like an admin and a super frequent poster. 301 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: People were very invested in her life. People knew her 302 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: kid by first name and like people had her birth 303 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 1: announcements on their fridge. 304 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 2: Becky was a successful attorney, would overcome a great deal 305 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 2: of adversity. 306 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: She had just a really difficult upbringing me and the 307 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: odds were completely stacked against her. She was a teen mom. 308 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: She had her first baby so young. She had also 309 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: suffered child loss, which was unimaginable to me. Just like 310 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: thinking about, you know how much I loved my son 311 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: before I had even met him. I think that's every 312 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: parent's worst fear. 313 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 2: Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource 314 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 2: and a guiding light for other parents in the group 315 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grateful raising 316 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: six other kids. But the tragedy didn't end there. Her 317 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: oldest child had recently been the victim of an anti 318 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 2: gay hate crime. 319 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: The sympathy and like hurt that I felt for her 320 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: knowing that her kid had been through this awful. 321 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 2: Becky posted all the details of the hate in the group. 322 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: There were hundreds of comments being like, we love you, Becky. 323 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: People were just so genuinely caring for her. She was 324 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: receiving gifts, some of them monetary. She was getting constant 325 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: affection and attention from everyone. 326 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 2: But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her 327 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: career and putting her all into raising her six children. 328 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 2: She was a super mom. 329 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,359 Speaker 1: Like she's amazing, you know. She had her kid in 330 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: these cultural emergence schools, and she was taking these incredible trips, 331 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: like they went to Scotland, and like she had these beautiful, enriching, 332 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: individualized lives that she had built for these kids. And 333 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: I was like, Wow, I need to get my acts 334 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: together if I want to be able to a parent 335 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 1: like this. And so I think I kind of idolized 336 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 1: her a little bit. 337 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life. 338 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: In all the videos, she was alone. There were no kids, sounds, 339 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: or never her husband. It was just her. I assumed 340 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: that it was like her five minutes alone. She wanted 341 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,160 Speaker 1: to connect with other parents. 342 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 2: Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too. 343 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,120 Speaker 1: Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook. 344 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 2: Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other 345 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 2: in the group. 346 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: It was a lot. It seemed like it was in 347 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 1: good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly. 348 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process 349 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: of converting to Judaism. She looked at Becky as a 350 00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 2: resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith. 351 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 2: But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested. 352 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: I was like, why are we not friends? And she 353 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: didn't even want to acknowledge it, which was very odd 354 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: to me. 355 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,680 Speaker 2: It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were 356 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: interested in the same things. 357 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: I'm passionate about heritage language, like that's my thing, and 358 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: she's a Jewish person who's passionate about heritage language. And 359 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: she would not speak to me about it. 360 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language 361 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:29,360 Speaker 2: learning skills. 362 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: She was speaking Ladino, which is like Judeo Spanish. It's 363 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: sort of adjacent to Yiddish, which is one of my languages. 364 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 1: And it really drove home to me and a lot 365 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 1: of other people how smart she was. 366 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 2: Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not 367 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: that common, so she really wanted to bond over that 368 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: shared experience. 369 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask questions about that, and I was like, 370 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: really looking for that advice from her, and unfortunately she 371 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: just would not. 372 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 2: And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky. 373 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 2: They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood, 374 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 2: Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some 375 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: of the same things. 376 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: I jokingly sometimes referred to myself as a rescue. It's like, 377 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,760 Speaker 1: you know, I was literally living on the street and 378 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 1: then living in a studio when I met my husband, 379 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: and I had probably like twenty bucks, So I was like, 380 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: that happens. That's crazy. We both had our like Cinderella moment, 381 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: and she just like did not the kinship thing wasn't mutual, 382 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, I'm being weird. 383 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,479 Speaker 2: Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to 384 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 2: offend Becky. 385 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, did I like say something? 386 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: So I was really concerned that I had really hurt her, 387 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 1: So she tried. 388 00:22:57,080 --> 00:22:58,960 Speaker 2: To connect with other people in the group. 389 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: I started seeking out other Jewish parents in that group, 390 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,159 Speaker 1: and everyone was like, you got to talk to Becky, 391 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,680 Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, okay, I'll try. 392 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher. 393 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: Every time I asked her a question, I would get 394 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that 395 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: I had ever heard before, but I guess she would know, 396 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: and so I started to sort of get back to 397 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: that place where I was like, am I qualified for this? 398 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,200 Speaker 2: The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before. 399 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to 400 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 2: doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith. 401 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: I don't know anything. I was like, maybe I am 402 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 1: further behind with conversion than I thought it was. 403 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 2: In the Winner of twenty twenty, Sarah's son was born. 404 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,480 Speaker 2: She had unexpected complications and the birth didn't go as planned. 405 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: Be very traumatic birth. It was really really bad. He 406 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: was almost completely fine, but I needed a lot of help. 407 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: At the very end of the birth, while my son 408 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: was being put in my arms, I had a psychotic 409 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: break and I ended up going into postpartum psychosis, and 410 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: I had no idea what that was about. 411 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: Two percent of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth. 412 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well 413 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 2: being and concerns that something is wrong, but it spirals 414 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,159 Speaker 2: into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be 415 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: really dangerous for both the mother and the baby. 416 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: I was hallucinating very vividly. But I had no idea 417 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,680 Speaker 1: that I was hallucinating, and so I was experiencing really 418 00:24:53,680 --> 00:25:02,480 Speaker 1: intense paranoia. You know, a lot of people have intrusive thoughts, scary, 419 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: violent ones, and once those thoughts start sounding like a 420 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: good idea, you need to talk to someone. I was 421 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: having those thoughts stored myself because I thought that if 422 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: I didn't get myself out of the picture, something would 423 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: happen to my baby. 424 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 2: She was scared and she didn't know what was going on, 425 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 2: so she reached out to a doctor. 426 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: When I sought advice from medical professionals, I was actually 427 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: told it was normal, but I didn't know how to 428 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: effectively communicate how serious it was, and so I was 429 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: at home in full psychosis with a new. 430 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 2: This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point. 431 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: I had like a full breakdown episode, and I was 432 00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 1: admitted to a hospital. I stayed there for a little 433 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: over a week. I think time really wasn't I'm not 434 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 1: really sure about that. It was really hard to like 435 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 1: be away from my baby, you know, but I did 436 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 1: feel that he was safer and I fell safer as well. 437 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: After she left the hospital, she was stable but the 438 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 2: experience was traumatic, so there was still some fear there. 439 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: I was really afraid to hold my son or be 440 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: alone with him for a long time. I loved him, 441 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: but I didn't trust myself to be a good parent. 442 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: I didn't even trust myself to be like a babysitter. 443 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: I just was so afraid that I would do something 444 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 1: terribly wrong. 445 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 2: So she turned to her support system, the parenting group. 446 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: And then as soon as I got out, I went 447 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: to the group because it's like, I don't know who 448 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: else that I could possibly ask about this, And I 449 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: started asking, like, has anyone had this happened before? And 450 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: the person who kept popping up was Becky And she 451 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: had postpartum depression before, and anxiety and OCD. She knew 452 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,959 Speaker 1: what she was talking about. She had been through like 453 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: a similar situation, not psychosist to my knowledge, but really 454 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: really rough mental health stuff following the birth of a baby. 455 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,280 Speaker 1: And I was so grateful to have that resource. 456 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 2: This was some of Becky's advice. 457 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: Just like go to therapy, just drink water, just wait. 458 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, okay, she would know, not me. 459 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 2: Sarah didn't just need advice, she needed someone who'd been 460 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: through this and made it out on the other side 461 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: to tell her that she was going to be okay, 462 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: that it wasn't her fault and that she wasn't a 463 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: bad mom. But Becky did the opposite. 464 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,440 Speaker 1: She was definitely implying that I wasn't cut out for this. 465 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: You know, this just isn't for some people. Maybe it's 466 00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: not for you. 467 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 2: Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear 468 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: at the time. She was isolated by COVID and her 469 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 2: postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep. 470 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: I mean, just validation would have gone a long way, 471 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: but she really went out of her way to make 472 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: it seem like anyone who was struggling was just so 473 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 1: beneath her and that she was just like supermom. And 474 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: so I was really questioning everything, and not in a 475 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 1: good way. 476 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,640 Speaker 2: This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life. 477 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,120 Speaker 2: She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded, 478 00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: Sarah focused on the positives she did have. 479 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 1: At this point, we are about two months away from 480 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: being officially Jewish. I'm going to the mikvah and I'm 481 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: so excited. It's like a huge deal. 482 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: A mikvah is a spiritual ceremony and it could be 483 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: used to officially annoint someone in the Jewish faith. So 484 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: Sarah's first mikvah was like a baptism. 485 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: I got dumped and it was amazing. It was so great, 486 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: and I passed my little exam and I got my 487 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: certificate for me and for my son. That was the best, 488 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: you know, I can't even describe like how like symbolic 489 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: and amazing. It fell after my weird, quiver full baptism 490 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: experience to go to a mikva of my own volition. 491 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,479 Speaker 2: During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started 492 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 2: teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as 493 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: a Jewish parent. 494 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: It took me like two or three years to be 495 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: what I would consider back to myself. But my light 496 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: at the end of the tunnel is that I'm the 497 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: Jewish parent in my son's life, and I have to 498 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: stick around and I have to keep him in touch 499 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:13,719 Speaker 1: with his culture. 500 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned a parent in a 501 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 2: way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was 502 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,719 Speaker 2: instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older, 503 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 2: Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child 504 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 2: in an inner faith marriage. 505 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: My husband is not religious at all, but we technically 506 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: are an interfaith family because he's not Jewish and I am. 507 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: And it's really hard to find supportive interfaith parenting spaces. 508 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: And Becky was a Jewish parent and an interfaith family, 509 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: and so I was like, hey, I really needed to help. 510 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: And she was receptive of that and gave a lot 511 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: of that was maybe more critical than I was expecting. 512 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: Every time I asked her a question, I would get 513 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that 514 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: I had ever heard before. But I guess she would know, 515 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: and so I started to sort of get back to 516 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 1: that place where I was like, am I qualified for this? 517 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 2: At the time, Becky had made a post about how 518 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 2: she keeps a kosher kitchen. 519 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: She was very much positioning herself as an authority, and 520 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 1: she made this big deal out of keeping kosher. 521 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself, 522 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: so in the comment section, she asked a follow up 523 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,479 Speaker 2: question about setting up a kosher kitchen. 524 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: I just had a question about separate sides of the 525 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: kitchen because I haven't done. 526 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 2: It, but Strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post. 527 00:31:54,400 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: It was weird. My comment got deleted very quickly when 528 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: I asked the question, and so I don't even think 529 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: I saw what her reply was. 530 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 2: So finally she turned to her rabbi. 531 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: I contacted him in tears, just like crisis mode, like 532 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm supposed to be doing this. I 533 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: can't be a parent like this, like you made a 534 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 1: mistake by letting me be jish, like I don't know 535 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: what's going on. And he was the first person to ask, 536 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 1: who is this person? Do you see them a lot? 537 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 1: Can you stop seeing them? I was like, they're just 538 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: a person on Facebook? And he's like, why are you 539 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: listening to that? Like what what is their role? What 540 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: is their authority here? And I was like, dude, I 541 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: don't know. Actually I don't call my rabbi dude, but 542 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: you know, I was like, yeah, that's a good question. 543 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: I had been interacting with her for almost three years, 544 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: and I never realized how badly it had been affecting 545 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,480 Speaker 1: me until he said that. 546 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 2: Pretty soon Sarah would get an answer to that question, 547 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 2: one she wasn't expecting. 548 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: So I was at home and then I got added 549 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: to this group chat that had like two hundred messages 550 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,320 Speaker 1: and it's called Therapy Sash and it had the name 551 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: of the parenting group. I was like late to be added, 552 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: and I was like, what is happening? And then one 553 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: of my friends from the group was like, I'll catch 554 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: you up. Thank god, you know, thank you so much, 555 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 1: and she tells me we just found out Becky the 556 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: admin and the parenting group. I was like, oh, I 557 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: know her. Go on. She just was like, she is 558 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: not real. 559 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 2: After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in 560 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:31,239 Speaker 2: Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who 561 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 2: she said she was. 562 00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: She was like, she is a catfish. She's been stealing 563 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: people's pictures of their children, pretending that they're her kids 564 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: and giving them these crazy backstories. Immediately, my brain went 565 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: to the child that had a hate crime committed against them. 566 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,239 Speaker 1: What possesses the person to see a picture of a 567 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,440 Speaker 1: child they don't know and invent a hate crime against them? 568 00:34:58,960 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: This cannot be. 569 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 2: The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page 570 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: and Becky was gone. 571 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: And then I saw the announcement from one of the admins, 572 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: just like how heart broken and shaken. 573 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:22,720 Speaker 2: She was two hundred of the most active group members 574 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 2: were all in a text called Therapy Sash, comparing their notes, 575 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,360 Speaker 2: trying to understand what was happening. 576 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: How could she not be real? I had seen her 577 00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: talking to her husband, like I'd seen videos of her, 578 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: and things just kept coming out over and over like 579 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: all day, and for that whole day, I just completely 580 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: abandoned my work and just stayed in the group chat. 581 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 2: Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self, with 582 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 2: her real name, but nearly everything else about her was 583 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 2: a lie. She didn't have six kids, she didn't have any, 584 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 2: she had never been a parent at all. 585 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,680 Speaker 1: We found out that none of her children are real. 586 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 1: Her children were pictures of someone else's children that she 587 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: had been taken from an account that she was following. 588 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: Her son that was talking to children of other people 589 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: in the group on kids Messenger was her and she 590 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: had given him this really traumatic backstory, but he wasn't 591 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: real at all. And then she had her husband that 592 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:42,720 Speaker 1: was her as well. 593 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 2: There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account 594 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 2: where she posed as her husband and filled out his 595 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 2: profile using stolen pictures from the Internet. 596 00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: She had taken pictures from I Believe an actor from Thailand. 597 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: Her entire family was her. 598 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,319 Speaker 2: Some people were friends with Becky in real life and 599 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 2: they were blindsided too. 600 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: People had met her in person while she was pregnant, 601 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: but she wasn't pregnant, and it was like she fooled 602 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: these moms of multiple kids. Nobody could have seen this coming. 603 00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 2: Becky lied about the death of her two year old 604 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had 605 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 2: actually lost kids of their own. 606 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: The thing that like sticks with me was the amount 607 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 1: of other parents in the group who had lost their children, 608 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: like toddlers and even older or younger, who were consoling 609 00:37:53,160 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: her and sharing their similar struggles Like what, who? Who 610 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 1: could do this? 611 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,000 Speaker 2: It was the extent of her lies that kept people 612 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 2: from questioning her. 613 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: If you say something like did you even have the 614 00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: death of a child and you're wrong, you are the 615 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,399 Speaker 1: worst for doubting this person, and no one who's an 616 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: actual normal person would want to do that. Then there's 617 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,319 Speaker 1: also the practical side of it, where she can just 618 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: delete your comment, she can just kick you out of 619 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 1: the group. She was an admins, so she could get 620 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:33,200 Speaker 1: rid of you. 621 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 2: The admins the people most intimately involved in running the 622 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 2: group were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud, and they 623 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,279 Speaker 2: needed answers. 624 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: When she was confronted by the admins that she was 625 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: close with, she said that she can't stop. I don't 626 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: understand why, but I do believe that she can't stop. 627 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,960 Speaker 2: After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together 628 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 2: to find out more about the real Becky. 629 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: When we started finding out more about her and we 630 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 1: spoke to someone in her life who knew more about 631 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,840 Speaker 1: her as a real person on her background, they revealed 632 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: to us that she had been doing this since high school, 633 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: making up people and making up herself. 634 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 2: There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was 635 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 2: actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected 636 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 2: vulnerable people. 637 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: I think that's the only thing she has ever told 638 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 1: the truth about other than her cat's name. 639 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 2: One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions 640 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 2: to the bar association in her home state, But as 641 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 2: far as the group knows, nothing has ever come with 642 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 2: that report. 643 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: It seems like it was a joke to a lot 644 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: of people. Because I think that there is this attitude 645 00:39:55,640 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 1: where if something happens online, mainly online it's not real, 646 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 1: and it was very real to a lot of us. 647 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,000 Speaker 2: It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found 648 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: out she wasn't Jewish at all. For three years, Sarah 649 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,680 Speaker 2: was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky, told that she 650 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 2: didn't know what she was talking about when it came 651 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 2: to her faith. And worst of all, when Sarah was 652 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,280 Speaker 2: going through a mental health crisis, Becky was there saying 653 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 2: she'd been through something similar and telling Sarah that maybe 654 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: she wasn't cut out to be a parent. 655 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: For me, it was transparently life or death at one 656 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: point with stories like this, if I hear them from 657 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: other people, you know, like on like that CATA show, 658 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, at what point would this person call it? 659 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: At what point would this person be like okay? And 660 00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: for her, it was not a new mom considering ending things, 661 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,920 Speaker 1: So I don't know what it could vastly be because 662 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: anyone in their right mind would have stopped. She knew 663 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 1: what I was going through, everyone did, and she just 664 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: did that regardless. 665 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's 666 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 2: trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's 667 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 2: worst fears. 668 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: That insecurity was there, and it's not like her doing that. 669 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: It was there. A lot of it was just that 670 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,719 Speaker 1: I felt that way, but she really honed in on it. 671 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: She could have really sense that stuff. And it's taken 672 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:50,399 Speaker 1: until like a couple of days ago to realize how 673 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,000 Speaker 1: awful and how deep it went and how much it 674 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: affected me. This whole experience just really made me doubt 675 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,840 Speaker 1: my abilities as a parent and my self as a person, 676 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: and just like basically every aspect of my identity that 677 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: I had spent so long trying to find, it like 678 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: shook everything. 679 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,960 Speaker 2: But then she started seeing it all differently. 680 00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 1: I saw that she had lied about something that made 681 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 1: me feel like an impostor, and she was the impostor 682 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: the whole time. I had actually done it, Like I 683 00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: had overcome a lot of the same things that she 684 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: had lied about. 685 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,200 Speaker 2: She's not just talking about parenting, she's talking about persevering 686 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity and a 687 00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 2: new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis. 688 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:58,000 Speaker 1: It went from me being angry about that and feeling 689 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,920 Speaker 1: like I had like myself down to me feeling like 690 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,719 Speaker 1: I am really proud of myself. I did this thing 691 00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: that is so hard that she had to lie about it. 692 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:12,520 Speaker 1: I did it for real. 693 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 2: One question Sarah still has is that, out of all 694 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 2: the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one. 695 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,760 Speaker 1: I really can't understand her reason for finding a group 696 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:34,839 Speaker 1: that was parents trying to break cycles of abuse and 697 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: take advantage of them and make them doubt themselves, people 698 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: who are in this incredibly vulnerable spot of trying to 699 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,439 Speaker 1: be better for their children and trying to be better 700 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,719 Speaker 1: for themselves. If I were evil, I would leave that 701 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:57,520 Speaker 1: one alone, you know. I just that seems like a line. 702 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,760 Speaker 2: Becky's deception changed the group, but for Sarah, it brought 703 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 2: her closer to the other real parents out there who 704 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 2: really wanted to connect and support each other. 705 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:11,719 Speaker 1: A lot of people did actually just disappear, just quit Facebook, 706 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,520 Speaker 1: quit online stuff. I'd not blame them at all. But 707 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: the thing that I found so kind of heartwarming, like 708 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: it almost feels like a Hallmark movie, is this pack 709 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 1: of moms that in hindsight saw somebody messing with other 710 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: moms and their kids and were like, absolutely not, And 711 00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,399 Speaker 1: we were there for each other, and we've gotten really 712 00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: close a lot of us have the way that we 713 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: were able to show up for each other. That kind 714 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: of undid a lot of the distrust that was immediately 715 00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,480 Speaker 1: planted by this like that was the initial function of 716 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:54,880 Speaker 1: the group. 717 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 2: We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom, 718 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 2: who wrote into our email Betrayal pod at gmail dot com. 719 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,720 Speaker 2: On Betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't 720 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,319 Speaker 2: see the deception right in front of them, but in 721 00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 2: this case, it was a group of thousands of people, 722 00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,799 Speaker 2: a whole community. So we asked members to send in 723 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 2: voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what 724 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 2: they said. I got to know her family. She presented 725 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:33,520 Speaker 2: herself as this perfect parent. She posted prolifically. 726 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 3: And also judging other people's parenting like she was just 727 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 3: this kind of professional. 728 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,640 Speaker 2: She would center herself in these conversations as almost an 729 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 2: authority figure. 730 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,160 Speaker 4: She always made it seem like it was this effortless, 731 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 4: seamless thing, and she just has it all together. 732 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 3: I saw my spouse self conscious. It's really aggravating that 733 00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:01,600 Speaker 3: anybody is comparing themselves to somebody who is, like measurably impossible. 734 00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,480 Speaker 4: I truly felt like I wasn't good enough. I was 735 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:06,720 Speaker 4: not a good enough parent. 736 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 2: When the community found out that Becky was a fraud, 737 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,719 Speaker 2: that deception felt personal. 738 00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,280 Speaker 3: Becky was talking to children pretending to be children. 739 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,600 Speaker 2: Her father's not dead, he's living still and is a physician. 740 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,840 Speaker 3: I've seen several friends of mine severely impacted by this 741 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 3: and how they just can't trust anybody. 742 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,160 Speaker 4: So many of us are really trying our best and 743 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,480 Speaker 4: our great parents. We just art out the perfect parent 744 00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,240 Speaker 4: because the perfect parent does not exist. 745 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,959 Speaker 2: Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright 746 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 2: side or the silver lining, but she did learn something 747 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,320 Speaker 2: from all of this. Here's Sarah again. 748 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,759 Speaker 1: This was one of the situations in my life that 749 00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:01,440 Speaker 1: pushed me to begin questioning who put you in charge? 750 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,280 Speaker 1: That's this simple question, but it has been incredibly difficult 751 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:09,319 Speaker 1: for me to ask because I was taught under no 752 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: circumstances should you ever ask that? And now I do. 753 00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,680 Speaker 2: Today Sarah has big news. 754 00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: Well, I'm almost eight months pregnant. We are having a 755 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: little girl. 756 00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 2: And this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself. 757 00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,120 Speaker 1: I don't feel the sense of dread that I thought 758 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:37,520 Speaker 1: I would because I've put a lot of effort into 759 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,760 Speaker 1: building a super strong community online and in real life 760 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,480 Speaker 1: with people that I know and people that I trust. 761 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm really excited to start out with the confidence in 762 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:58,360 Speaker 1: my role as the Jewish mom. I'm feeling really confident 763 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: and excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in 764 00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,880 Speaker 1: my son's abilities to be a big brother. I mean, 765 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: there are challenges always, and I have no idea what 766 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,319 Speaker 1: they're going to be yet, but I think that we 767 00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: can handle it. 768 00:48:14,920 --> 00:48:17,760 Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question, 769 00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:20,280 Speaker 2: why did you want to tell your story? 770 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,319 Speaker 1: The reason that I want to talk about it is 771 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: because I do think that she can't stop. I do 772 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 1: think that she's doing it again, and I think that 773 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: there are people other people in the world who do 774 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: stuff like this, of course, and so I want to 775 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: be there for another person to just say, like, you're 776 00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:40,720 Speaker 1: not crazy. 777 00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal. 778 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:53,960 Speaker 5: You eventually told me the whole story, and I said, 779 00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:59,560 Speaker 5: why met He said as my uncle would, saying why 780 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 5: not you. 781 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:05,040 Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal 782 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email 783 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 2: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 784 00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:16,839 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One 785 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,160 Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show 786 00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,320 Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 787 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank 788 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production 789 00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,000 Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 790 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,840 Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by 791 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,400 Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me 792 00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,240 Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced 793 00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,840 Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin Golden. 794 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio 795 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,920 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvechio. Additional editing support from 796 00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 2: Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines. Music library 797 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,320 Speaker 2: provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, 798 00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 799 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:10,799 Speaker 2: your podcasts.