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Speaker 1: a piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not

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Speaker 1: thinking about the environmental impact. But the people in the

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: I'm David Ego from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

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Speaker 3: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

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Speaker 3: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

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Speaker 3: three pound universe in our heads.

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Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, because the more we

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Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood, better we can

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Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

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Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get

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Speaker 3: your podcasts.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Daniel, do you remember the days before we had smartphones?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I try not to think about it too much.

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Speaker 4: Hey, well, you can't live with that Wikipedia at your fingertips.

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Speaker 1: You know, how else would I seem like an expert

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Speaker 1: on anything? But no, mostly I couldn't live without the

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Speaker 1: direction right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Are you the kind of driver that needs to

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Speaker 4: check them up every ten seconds?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is me. I like to know exactly where

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Speaker 1: I am on the surface of the air at all times. Huh,

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Speaker 1: At all times. I need constant updates to make sure

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Speaker 1: I've not gone off.

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Speaker 4: Well, what are you going to do when humans get

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Speaker 4: out into space? Are you going to get around there?

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Speaker 1: I'm just gonna wait until there are enough.

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Speaker 4: Cell towers, or at least WI fi.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basic human survival needs in space, air food and

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Speaker 1: Wi Fi.

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Speaker 4: Hi. I'm Jorge. I'm a cartoonist and the creator of

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Speaker 4: PhD Comics.

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Speaker 6: Hi.

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Speaker 1: I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I plan to

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Speaker 1: be the one millionth person in space.

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Speaker 4: One million.

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Speaker 5: There.

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Speaker 4: You know there are seven billion of those, so you know,

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Speaker 4: let's put it pretty far ahead in line.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I don't want to be the first person,

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Speaker 1: or the second person, or the hundredth person. But I

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Speaker 1: also don't want to be the last person.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 1: I want to go when it's still a new and

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Speaker 1: fresh but not dangerous. I'm not a test pilot kind

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Speaker 1: of a person.

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Speaker 4: You see. A million sounds about right.

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Speaker 1: A million sounds about right, But hey, I'm flexible two million,

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Speaker 1: million and a half. You know I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: elbow my way in that line.

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Speaker 4: Well, welcome to our podcast where you are first in

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Speaker 4: line to hear this. It's called Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 4: the Universe. The production of iHeartRadio, where normally we take

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Speaker 4: you on a mental trip around the cosmos, zooming out

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Speaker 4: from the tiniest little particles that define the basic building

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Speaker 4: blocks of the universe, all the way out to the

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Speaker 4: grandest structures that shape the nature of the cosmos itself. Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I just think of us as your guides, as your

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Speaker 4: personal GPS to all of the amazing and wonderful things

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Speaker 4: that are in the universe and also all of the

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Speaker 4: unknown things that are out there for us to discover.

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Speaker 1: Do you think we're a good mental gps. Sometimes we

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Speaker 1: get lost, We get on a discussion about neutrinos and

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Speaker 1: we end up talking about snack foods.

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Speaker 4: Well, well, you know, I think detours are part of

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Speaker 4: the fun of a trip, right.

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Speaker 1: I wish the mind navigation like Siri would tell me, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: pull over and get the chips. There's a good snackshop

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Speaker 1: right here.

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Speaker 4: Why not? Yeah, that should be a setting.

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Speaker 1: Right, suggests snacks? I like that, suggest Yeah, AI engineers,

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Speaker 1: get on it.

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Speaker 4: Not in a hurry. Should be maybe an option open

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Speaker 4: to wonderful discoveries.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And on this podcast we try to open

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Speaker 1: your mind to all the future wonderful discoveries that science

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Speaker 1: will bring us. And we do that by talking about

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Speaker 1: the cutting edge of science, all the questions that science

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Speaker 1: has not answered, all the things scientists are trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out, and all the technical problems they're trying to

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Speaker 1: solve on their journey to give us the answers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I think sometimes the thing about a journey

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Speaker 4: of discovery is the journey itself, you know.

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Speaker 1: And the friends you make along the way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, not just where you go and what

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Speaker 4: do you find when you get there, but also how

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Speaker 4: do you get there, and how do you how do

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Speaker 4: you even know where to go when you're going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think people imagine that it's hard to get

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Speaker 1: to Jupiter or Pluto because it's so far out there.

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Speaker 1: It's just like you gotta throw a rock really far

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Speaker 1: into but it's not just really far away, it's like

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Speaker 1: very hard to find. You know. Pluto is a small

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Speaker 1: rock in the vast, vast reaches of space. If you're

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Speaker 1: going to throw something in that direction, you have to

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Speaker 1: be really precise. You have to really know how to

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Speaker 1: aim it and have to be able to course correct

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Speaker 1: along the way, and that turns out to be not

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Speaker 1: so easy. It's much harder than stopping for snacks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, they have good snacks in Jupiter, so

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Speaker 4: you know, it makes it a little gassy at the end,

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Speaker 4: but you know, it's all totally worth.

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Speaker 1: It, right, right, the Red Storm chips.

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Speaker 7: I love this.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So today we're going to be asking a question

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Speaker 4: that I personally have had a lot of curiosity about

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Speaker 4: over the years. I've always wondered about this question, and

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Speaker 4: even more so now recently I've been rewatching all the

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Speaker 4: Star Wars movies and so this is a question that's

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Speaker 4: really present in my mind that I've been asking myself recently.

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Speaker 1: So, and why is that? Are you imagining how you're

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Speaker 1: going to navigate to your in laws house on the

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Speaker 1: Jovian moons from your vacation place in Saturn or what

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Speaker 1: inspires you to think about this?

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Speaker 4: Well, my wife and I are immigrants, but we're not

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Speaker 4: that kind of alien. But no, I just kind of wonder.

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Speaker 4: Do you know in Star Wars they always get lost

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Speaker 4: or they pop up in all kinds of places, and

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Speaker 4: so how do you know where you are? And how

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Speaker 4: do you know where to go? Or you know, they

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Speaker 4: talk about like a map of the galaxy. What does

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Speaker 4: that even look like or how would that even be useful?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very rare that they're like make a wrong turn.

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Speaker 1: They're like, were we supposed to turn left at that

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Speaker 1: pulsar or right? I don't even really remember, it feels

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Speaker 1: like that's all just sort of been integrated into the

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Speaker 1: electronics they have in front of them. But those are

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Speaker 1: hard problems, right, It's not necessarily trivial to figure out.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And if you think about it, in popular culture,

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Speaker 4: there's only been like one TV show about getting lost

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Speaker 4: in space.

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Speaker 1: You mean, it was.

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Speaker 4: Called Lost in Space. You know at least you know

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Speaker 4: what it's about.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So today on the program, we'll be asking the question

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Speaker 4: how do you navigate in space?

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Speaker 1: Space? Space? And this is a problem that's relevant to

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Speaker 1: future navigation, Like imagine you are flying a spaceship with

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Speaker 1: lots of people on board and trying to get everybody

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Speaker 1: safely to Alpha Centauri. And it's also a question today

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Speaker 1: as NASA and the ESA launch satellites to explore our

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Speaker 1: Solar System, how do they make sure they get to

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Speaker 1: the right spot? How do they course correct if they

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Speaker 1: are off? Who does those calculations? Is it on board

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Speaker 1: the satellite or back here on Earth? Are there people

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Speaker 1: with protractors and pencils scribbling things furiously? How does that

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Speaker 1: actually work?

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Speaker 9: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Because you know, space is pretty big, and it's three dimensional,

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Speaker 4: you know, at least three dimensional at least, Yeah, that

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Speaker 4: we know of that we think about right now. But

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Speaker 4: it's a multi dimensional and you're out there and you know,

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Speaker 4: there's no mountain to reference, no street signs, how do

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Speaker 4: you get around? How do you know where to go?

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Speaker 1: You think that third dimension is going to lead to

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Speaker 1: like a lot more marital arguments in the future, like

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Speaker 1: I told you to turn up at that moon. Oh man,

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Speaker 1: why did you turn down? This is like so many

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Speaker 1: more ways.

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Speaker 4: To whole new dimension to divorces.

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Speaker 1: Probably no, but it is really hard, and it's also

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Speaker 1: vital because you're so much further away from your resources.

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Speaker 1: Like these spaceships they leave Earth, they're never getting a refill,

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Speaker 1: like they run out of gas because they got lost.

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Speaker 1: They're just lost. So you have like a very limited

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Speaker 1: window to make the moves you need to make to

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Speaker 1: enter that orbit or to fly by the moon. There's

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Speaker 1: no redos, Like you have a one tank and that's it.

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Speaker 1: So it's absolutely critical that you don't get lost and

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Speaker 1: that you figure out how to get where you need

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Speaker 1: to go.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, as usual, we were wondering how many people

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Speaker 4: out there had thought about this question or even have

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Speaker 4: an idea about how to navigate in space. So, as usual,

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Speaker 4: Daniel went out there and asked the internet to try

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Speaker 4: to answer this question, how do you navigate in space?

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Speaker 1: That's right, and if you'd like to participate in our

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Speaker 1: virtual person on the street interviews, just shoot us an

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Speaker 1: email to questions at Danielanjorge dot com. We would love

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Speaker 1: to put your uninformed speculation on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: And so think about it for a second. If you

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Speaker 4: were out in space, in the middle of the galaxy

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Speaker 4: or in between galaxies, how would you know which way

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Speaker 4: to make your way home? Here's what people had to say.

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Speaker 2: Because gravity distal space and time and everything, maybe you'd

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Speaker 2: have to go Maybe you'd have to shoot a little

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Speaker 2: bit off it because as you cut, as you go

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Speaker 2: close to and an object, you'd kind of be taken

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Speaker 2: into its gravitational swing. Other than that, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: How do you navigate through deep space? Do you just

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Speaker 2: keep a set of stars to your left and hopefully

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Speaker 2: you're going the same direction? I have no idea.

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Speaker 5: Maybe like by distracting energy from the Sun, or if

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Speaker 5: we're very patient, maybe with solar sales we could navigate

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Speaker 5: deep space.

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Speaker 4: Maybe through a pulse of a star, or like I

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Speaker 4: don't know, pole stars or something.

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Speaker 10: I think the only way you can navigate in deep

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Speaker 10: space is the way we do it now by using

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Speaker 10: stars and galaxies, things that are consistent, not necessarily constellations,

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Speaker 10: because that could you know in three D space they

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Speaker 10: have depth, and they have angles that they are relative

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Speaker 10: each other, you know, consolations new But if we use

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Speaker 10: stuff like pulsars and quasars and you know the Andromeda gag,

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Speaker 10: see those things, we can coordinate ourselves using a couple

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Speaker 10: of those angles, we can coordinate ourselves in deep space.

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Speaker 11: I think, never creating in deep space, what American would

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Speaker 11: still need the basic rules of navigation, you'd either use

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Speaker 11: inertial navigation, sitting time, speed, and direction from some in

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Speaker 11: short style.

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Speaker 1: You will have to pick something like the sun and

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Speaker 1: navigating reference to the sun.

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Speaker 12: Let's say, if you're heading to a prime century, we

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Speaker 12: should at least have an inbuilt special air and visible

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Speaker 12: telescopes I mean linz and meadows, and special lasers and

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Speaker 12: optimal path correction systems and some kind of special clocks.

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Speaker 6: Navigating in deep space I would have to assume it's

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Speaker 6: much like ceiling the ocean.

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Speaker 4: You look at the stars and see where're at relative

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Speaker 4: to the stars.

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Speaker 8: After your statement that space is expanding faster than the

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Speaker 8: speed of light, or faster than light can travel through it,

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Speaker 8: I really have no idea.

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Speaker 4: Now, I think you could go anywhere you go.

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Speaker 6: Yep, Well, hopefully you can do that, but how you

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Speaker 6: do it? My idea would be to mount a big,

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Speaker 6: giant telescope on the top of your spacecraft, on the

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Speaker 6: front and the back, so you can see where you're

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Speaker 6: going and where you came from. Maybe a telescope as

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Speaker 6: big as Hubble, because your spacecraft's going to have.

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Speaker 1: To be that big.

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Speaker 5: After we leave the planet and learn about the further

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Speaker 5: stars that we don't see on Earth, we can pick

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Speaker 5: three stars, and by keeping track of the distance between

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Speaker 5: us and the stars, we can know our position, and

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Speaker 5: when the stars are too far away, we can always

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Speaker 5: pick three any new stars that we found out about

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Speaker 5: along the way in our journey.

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Speaker 1: So there are a lot of ideas there. What do

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Speaker 1: you think of those?

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Speaker 4: Pretty good? Pretty good. I feel like people were sort

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Speaker 4: of thinking about triangulation and using the stars somehow to

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Speaker 4: tell where you are. I feel like that's a pretty

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Speaker 4: common idea in science fiction movies and boots. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you just look at the stars around you and you

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Speaker 4: know where you are and you know where to go,

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Speaker 4: or like if you look at the stars and you

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Speaker 4: don't recognize things, then you're kind of in trouble.

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Speaker 1: I like the guy who said, let's put a huge

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Speaker 1: telescope on the front and on the back of your spaceship,

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Speaker 1: because I want that anyway. Like, if I'm flying through space,

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Speaker 1: I want a big telescope because I want to see

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Speaker 1: what stuff's around me. You know, I want to do

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Speaker 1: some sight seeing when I'm out there.

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Speaker 4: Why do you need one in the back though, just

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Speaker 4: to see the fits of people that you leave behind?

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Speaker 1: Well, because I mean, I guess you could turn your telescope.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're saying you'll need one telescope plus like a

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Speaker 1: mount or something, but hey, more telescopes are better.

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Speaker 4: Well, I feel like that is a sort of a

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Speaker 4: common thing, is to look at the stars around you

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Speaker 4: and somehow you said to orient yourself, you know, kind

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Speaker 4: of like we use the North Star for a long

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Speaker 4: time to kind of tell which way was north when

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Speaker 4: you're out in the middle of the ocean. Is that

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Speaker 4: kind of an idea that we can use at all?

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Speaker 1: It is an idea that we can use. And it

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Speaker 1: rests on this notion that if you have an accurate

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Speaker 1: map of the stars, you can compare that to what

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Speaker 1: you're seeing and look for landmarks and try to measure

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Speaker 1: angles between the stars to give you a sense for

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Speaker 1: where you are. For example, if two stars are almost

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Speaker 1: lined up in your vision, then that tells you that

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Speaker 1: you're along a line drawn between those two stars. And

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Speaker 1: if you can find other examples measuring angles between stars,

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Speaker 1: you can give you sort of a point in three

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Speaker 1: D space for where you are at that moment.

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Speaker 4: Well, I guess the problem that I I've always sort

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Speaker 4: of thought about is like, what if you find yourself

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Speaker 4: on the other side of the galaxy, how would you

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Speaker 4: even recognize any of the stars because the stars are

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Speaker 4: going to look totally different from the other side of

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Speaker 4: the galaxy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you just look at like teleported to a

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Speaker 1: random place in the universe where you have no reference points,

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Speaker 1: there's literally no way to know where you are because

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Speaker 1: there's no absolute reference there's no point in space that's

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Speaker 1: defined in zero and you can measure your location relative

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Speaker 1: to that. If you get teleported to an arbitrary point

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Speaker 1: in space. Special relativity says it's impossible to know where

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Speaker 1: you are. You can only measure your distance relative to

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Speaker 1: other stuff. So if you have no familiar references, you're

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Speaker 1: totally screwed.

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Speaker 4: Wow, and things are like changing in time. Also that

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Speaker 4: everything's moving, so you're sort of totally lost in.

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Speaker 1: You're totally lost.

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Speaker 9: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The only way to orient yourself in space is relative

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Speaker 1: to known things. So if you get teleported to some

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Speaker 1: part of space that's totally unfamiliar, then you literally have

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Speaker 1: no way to find your way back except for randomly

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Speaker 1: exploring until you do find a landmark.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to try that the next time I get

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Speaker 4: lost and my spouse is complaining, I'm like, it's special relativity.

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Speaker 4: It's a flaw of the universe. It's not my fault.

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Speaker 1: Daniel said, this should work. Don't you feel like smartphones

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Speaker 1: must have solved this marital complaint? Rights don't have to

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Speaker 1: argue about how to navigate anymore, and they just listen

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Speaker 1: to the phone.

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Speaker 4: That's right. The phone has saved a lot of marriages, probably.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, or maybe if people are like, no, listen to

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Speaker 1: my phone, well, my phone says it's faster take.

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Speaker 4: The expressway using Google Maps. No way, exactly, Why aren't

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Speaker 4: you using ways.

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Speaker 1: People who argue are going to argue anyway.

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Speaker 4: I guess, so I guess phones can't fix that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, navigators throughout history have used the stars,

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Speaker 1: Like if you have sailed the oceans, then to figure

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Speaker 1: out where you are in this vast sea where you

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Speaker 1: can see no landmarks, is just to look up and

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Speaker 1: look for star marks, right, to look for positions of

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Speaker 1: stars in the sky. That gives you a sense for

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Speaker 1: where you might be.

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Speaker 4: All right, well, let's get into the sort of the

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Speaker 4: nitty gritty of this problem. And because I know you've

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Speaker 4: told me that there are sort of several ways in

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Speaker 4: which we can right now sort of calculate where we

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Speaker 4: are in space, you know, barring kind of like a

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Speaker 4: complete map of the entire galaxy. So step us through.

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Speaker 4: What's the sort of the basic way that we get

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Speaker 4: around in space.

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Speaker 1: So the simplest way and the dumbest way and the

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Speaker 1: worst way is basically dead record, And that says you

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Speaker 1: know where you started. You started on Earth, and if

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Speaker 1: you have a record of all the moves you took,

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Speaker 1: you went in this direction at this velocity, you should

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Speaker 1: be able to calculate where you went because you know,

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Speaker 1: spacecraft followed the laws of physics, and we know what

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Speaker 1: those laws are. We have a whole model of the

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Speaker 1: Solar system, so we should be able to predict if

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Speaker 1: you leave in this direction at this time, and you

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Speaker 1: fire your rockets here and there, we should be able

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Speaker 1: to predict where you end.

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Speaker 4: That's kind of like closing your eyes and like knowing

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Speaker 4: where you are right now, closing your eyes and just

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Speaker 4: by like counting your steps and how you think you turn,

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Speaker 4: sort of like making it to your fridge or something

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Speaker 4: like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like following one of those treasure maps, like

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Speaker 1: fifteen paces forward, then turn left step four paces, then

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Speaker 1: dig right right. And that's a little terrifying. Like if

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Speaker 1: you remember the days before smartphones where people had to

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Speaker 1: like actually write down directions and there were things like

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Speaker 1: drive for fifteen miles, then take a left right, and

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Speaker 1: you had no idea is this the correct left or not?

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Speaker 5: You know?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and we all know how well that works

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Speaker 4: in the middle of the night when you have to

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Speaker 4: go to the bathroom with in total darkness, you know,

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Speaker 4: you better put your hands in front of you just

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Speaker 4: in case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so sailors used to call this dead reckoning

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Speaker 1: and you know it's not terrible, like it works. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we have a pretty good model of the Solar system,

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Speaker 1: and we have rockets, and we can even measure we

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Speaker 1: don't even have to just guess at like the effect

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Speaker 1: of thrust. You can measure how much you've accelerated using accelerometers.

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Speaker 1: You can measure your direction that you ended up in

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Speaker 1: using gyroscopes. So we've tried to be really careful about this,

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Speaker 1: and some spacecraft in the history of you know, American exploration,

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Speaker 1: have used dead reckoning.

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Speaker 4: But I guess it's tricky too, because you know, in

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Speaker 4: space you can count your steps, like there's nothing to

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Speaker 4: hold on to. To tell you how far you move,

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Speaker 4: you have to you have to like measure your acceleration

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Speaker 4: and then integrate debt to convert it to velocity, and

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Speaker 4: then integrate dad to convert that to distance. So it's

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Speaker 4: like a lot of room there to get errors.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and you mentioned a very step there, which is integration,

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Speaker 1: and that requires knowing the time. You can't count your steps.

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Speaker 1: What you need is a very accurate clock. And the

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Speaker 1: more accurate your clock, the more you accurately you can

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Speaker 1: calculate how far you've gone. So if you said, I

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Speaker 1: shot off in this direction this speed, Well, did you

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Speaker 1: go for two point seven seconds or two point eight

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Speaker 1: seconds When you're traveling at ten thousand kilometers per second,

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Speaker 1: that makes a big difference.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And when distances are so huge, right, and the

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Speaker 4: stakes are so high, like you can if you miss

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Speaker 4: Jupiter by a few miles, it could be bad. Used.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as you're going to do a Jupiter drive by right,

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Speaker 1: then you only get one shot at it, literally, right,

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Speaker 1: And so it's pretty tricky. And the problem here is

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Speaker 1: that errors build up, Like you make a little mistake

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Speaker 1: because you turned a little too far, then you're off,

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Speaker 1: and the next time you can't correct it, and so

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Speaker 1: the errors just build up and they integrate, and eventually

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Speaker 1: you can be pretty far from where you thought you were.

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Speaker 4: It literally is like walking around with your eyes closed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So that's the most basic strategy, and you

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Speaker 1: can make that more sofiic sticated by doing corrections. You

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Speaker 1: could say, well, I'm going to use dead reckoning. Plus

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Speaker 1: I'm going to look at the stars and I'm going

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Speaker 1: to try to figure out if I'm off. And this

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Speaker 1: is what like a lot of astronauts did, like Apollo

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Speaker 1: eleven apollow thirteen. They flew to the Moon by dead reckoning,

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Speaker 1: but occasionally they would check in and they would look

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Speaker 1: at the stars and try to get a more precise

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Speaker 1: measurement for where they were, and they would use that

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Speaker 1: to correct their flight path.

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Speaker 4: Really, so, I guess two questions. One is why didn't

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Speaker 4: they just use the Moon as a reference. They were

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Speaker 4: flying towards it and they could tell if they were

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Speaker 4: going away from it or towards it, and the size

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Speaker 4: of it too, wouldn't it tell you sort of the distance?

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Speaker 4: And then my second question was, you know, can you

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Speaker 4: actually use the stars to tell where you are?

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Speaker 1: You can? So, yes, they were pointed at the moon,

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Speaker 1: but that's pretty rough, right, And what you want to

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Speaker 1: do was get to the Moon and then enter into

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Speaker 1: orbit around the Moon. And that was a very precise maneuver.

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Speaker 1: And just like with a spacecraft, they had a limited

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Speaker 1: amount of fuel, so if they burnt their fuel the

443
00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 1: wrong time, they might not be able to make it home.

444
00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: Fuel was very expensive to lift off the surface of

445
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 1: the Earth, and so everything was a very tight budget,

446
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 1: so they had to be really precise exactly.

447
00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:11,880
Speaker 4: You can't just pull a UI in space.

448
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,640
Speaker 1: That costs a lot of energy to pull a yui

449
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,800
Speaker 1: like you missed the snack shop. You missed the snack shop, man,

450
00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 1: you are not going back. And yes, they did stellar navigation.

451
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 1: They looked by I to find stars and they measured

452
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,600
Speaker 1: the declination using gyroscopes and they use that to correct

453
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 1: their calculations. A huge fraction of the time they actually

454
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 1: spent in that module was typing data into that computer.

455
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:33,879
Speaker 4: Wow.

456
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a complicated system. And remember the whole program

457
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 1: was loaded into the computer before it launched, Like you

458
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 1: didn't have guys up there, like you know, tiptapping editing

459
00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,879
Speaker 1: the program being like I think we might changed the

460
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,440
Speaker 1: flight path or something. They had it all built in

461
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,760
Speaker 1: with the opportunity for small corrections based on looking at

462
00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,360
Speaker 1: those stars.

463
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 4: So what do you mean declination like where the constellation

464
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 4: was relative to the Earth or something like that.

465
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 1: No, relative to them, right, they had an idea for

466
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,440
Speaker 1: where they were an idea for if we are here,

467
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 1: the stars should appear at this angle relative to the spaceship,

468
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,920
Speaker 1: and then they would measure where is the star relative

469
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 1: to where the spaceship is pointing because I had careful gyroscopes. Interesting,

470
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 1: and those angles help them figure out exactly where they are.

471
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,080
Speaker 4: All right, Well, that sounds like it worked because they've

472
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,520
Speaker 4: gone to the moon a few times, so I can't

473
00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,919
Speaker 4: argue with that. All right, Well, let's get into some

474
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,840
Speaker 4: of the other ways that we can navigate in space

475
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 4: and whether or not they could help us explore the

476
00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,320
Speaker 4: furthest reaches of the cosmos. But first, let's take a

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Speaker 4: All right, Dina, we're talking about navigating in space. Space, space, space.

528
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 4: You know, I just wonder why there's always an echo

529
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 4: when people talk about space, because there's no echoes in space.

530
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: It's because it's cool, man, It's so cool, cool cool.

531
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: It makes it sound mysterious. It gives you a sense

532
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: of literally space, right, echoes give you a sense of

533
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: big emptiness. But you know that's just the audio version

534
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 1: of the artistic impression, which you know, I'm not a fan.

535
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,399
Speaker 4: You're not a fan of the echoes in space.

536
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: No, I'm a fan of realistic science fiction and should

537
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: give us a sense or what it's actually like to

538
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 1: be out there. Though maybe you know, if you're in

539
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,159
Speaker 1: a tiny little metal box, maybe there are actually a

540
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 1: lot of echoes inside.

541
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 4: I see. Well, we're talking about how to navigating space,

542
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 4: which is a big question, you know. I feel like

543
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 4: you know, whenever you watch a movie like Star Wars,

544
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,679
Speaker 4: it's like, how are they getting around? How do they

545
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 4: know where to go? And so we talked about it

546
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 4: one way, which is dead reckoning. Like if you know

547
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 4: you're on Earth and you leave Earth, you can sort

548
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,639
Speaker 4: of track your progress, but then you also have to

549
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 4: kind of correct your errors as you go.

550
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 1: That's right, and a better way to do that is

551
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: not just be based on your initial calculation from Earth,

552
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: but take inspiration from how your smartphone gets you to

553
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,920
Speaker 1: your friend's house, which is that it gets messages from satellites.

554
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 1: Here on Earth. We have the GPS system, which is

555
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: constantly broadcasting messages. That's giving your phone an idea for

556
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: where it is, and your phone figures out where it

557
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: is by hearing these messages and knowing how long it

558
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: took the message to get here from the satellite, and

559
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: it uses that to figure out where the phone is.

560
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 4: Right and it also uses like a map, Like your

561
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 4: phone knows where all the satellites should be at any time,

562
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 4: so once it gets a signal, it sort of knows

563
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:57,719
Speaker 4: where it is.

564
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, precisely, it knows where the satellites are a and

565
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: then it gets these messages. And the messages have a

566
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: little timestamp on them. They say I sent this message

567
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: at exactly this time, and if you get this message,

568
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 1: you know, seventeen milliseconds later, then you know how far

569
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: the message flew because you knew it flew at the

570
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,680
Speaker 1: speed of light. And you get enough of these things

571
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: and you can figure out where you are. And there's

572
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 1: an analogous system. There's GPS for deep space.

573
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 4: There is there's a space GPS.

574
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a space GPS, and it's called the Deep

575
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: Space Network and NASA runs it and it basically sends

576
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: messages out in deep space from three locations on the Earth,

577
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: and satellites get those messages, send them back and then

578
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: we can use that to figure out where the satellite is.

579
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 4: Oh, it's like a reverse What are you serious, It's

580
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 4: like a reverse GPS.

581
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: It's like a reverse GPS. Yeah. What happens is you

582
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 1: send a message to a satellite and then it comes

583
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,360
Speaker 1: back and you count, well, how long did it take

584
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 1: for the message to go there and come back? And

585
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: that gives you a sense for the distance. And then

586
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: when the message comes back, it's a little bit shifted

587
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 1: based on the speed of the satellite, and that tells

588
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: you how fast this satellite is moving away from you.

589
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 1: So it gives you a measure of the current position

590
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: and the velocity of the satellite.

591
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 4: But I guess that only works for satellites, right, Like,

592
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 4: it doesn't work if I'm in Jupiter, or does it?

593
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 1: Well, it works for anybody that can receive these deep

594
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: space messages and send them back. So it doesn't give

595
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: you your position relative to Jupiter. No, it only gives

596
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,879
Speaker 1: you your position and velocity relative to Earth.

597
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 4: Right, But like, if you know where Earth is, what

598
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 4: this signal help you know where you are in this

599
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 4: solar system.

600
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,480
Speaker 1: No, because you can't actually do the calculation yourself. And

601
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: that's one problem with this deep space network is that

602
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: only Earth gets to figure it out. Earth gets your message,

603
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: and then the second link gives Earth the information about

604
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 1: where you are, and then the folks on Earth have

605
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: to calculate, okay, turns out you are in this position

606
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: and send it to you. So it's kind of a

607
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 1: lot of back and forth. It's not that you can

608
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: just get this message from the deep space network and

609
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 1: figure it out yourself the way your phone can from

610
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: gas one directional, right, because it comes with these timestamps.

611
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 4: Right, So why couldn't this work the same way.

612
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: The reason is the clock. The clock on the satellite

613
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: is not very good, because really accurate clocks are necessary

614
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: to do these calculations. Is because it's much more important

615
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: to be super accurate, more important than your phone's GPS,

616
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: and the clocks that are on the satellites are not

617
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: good enough to do this. So they have to do

618
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: the calculation back on Earth and then send it to

619
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 1: the satellite. Because on Earth they have these super precise

620
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: atomic clocks that keep everything in lockstep.

621
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,640
Speaker 4: Interesting, all right, So we can't rely on the Earth

622
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 4: it tell us where we are, like if I'm out

623
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 4: in space or can we can we rely on Earth

624
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 4: to tell me where I am.

625
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: Earth can figure out where you are, how far you

626
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,719
Speaker 1: are from the Earth, and how fast you're going. But

627
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: you know, it's kind of limited, like they can get

628
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: really precise measurements of where you are up to about

629
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 1: one meter, which is really pretty amazing, like you're out

630
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: you know ju butter distance and Earth can measure how

631
00:28:58,080 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: far away you are to within.

632
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 4: One meter well, based on the balance of the echo,

633
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 4: like the signal coming back and going there and back.

634
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, just timing the echo because they have really precise

635
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: atomic clocks. But what they can't do is figure out

636
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: like where you are laterally, like your angle, because there

637
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: they don't have an echo measurement, right, and so they

638
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: are the uncertainty is more like four kilometers for every

639
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: au the distance between the Earth and the Sun.

640
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 4: I see because you know, if we're out by Jupiter,

641
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: we don't shine like a star, that's right, right, Like

642
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 4: we're not visible to the Earth, so they have no

643
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 4: idea where we are. They just know kind of how

644
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 4: far we are.

645
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: They know how far you are, and they figure out

646
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: where you are latterly basically using dead reckoning and then

647
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 1: correcting using these radio measurements. Oh, but you know, that's

648
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 1: a pretty big uncertainty. If you get out to like

649
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 1: the distance of Pluto, then there are uncertainty is two

650
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: hundred kilometers, which is really big if you're trying to

651
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 1: enter into the orbit of Pluto.

652
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that sounds like a pretty big error. You're

653
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 4: off like two hundred kilometers in your phone GPS, you

654
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: be in a whole different state. Yeah.

655
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: And so practically what these folks do is they use

656
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: landmarks in the Solar system to correct. So if you're

657
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,200
Speaker 1: getting near Jupiter, this satellite can be like, okay, I

658
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 1: see where Jupiter is. It can compare it to where

659
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 1: I thought Jupiter should be, and it can use that

660
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: to correct. So you're like, you're getting landmarks. You're like, oh,

661
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: you're driving your friend's house. There's supposed to be a

662
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: hill there, hopes I must be in the wrong.

663
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 4: Spot and passing the McDonald's I know from the halfway

664
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 4: there kind of thing.

665
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so cameras on board can give accurate measurements

666
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: of nearby objects, not very far away, only very nearby.

667
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: You see a big well known asteroid. You pass the

668
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: Moon or a planet, then you can correct you no

669
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: longer reliant on the messages from Earth.

670
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 4: Interesting, but the satellite does that calculation or like it

671
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 4: has to send the picture back and then here on

672
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 4: Earth we're like, oh, it just passed Jupiter. This is

673
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: where you are.

674
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's all done. On Earth currently sends the data

675
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: back and then we can get corrections, all right. And

676
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: that's one of the problems is that a lot of

677
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: this stuff relies on calculations done on Earth and then

678
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: these back and forth communications with the deep space network

679
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: which tie up the deep space network. You know, you're

680
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: only talking to one satellite. All the other ones are waiting,

681
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: so you can only talk to like, you know, a

682
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: few of them at a time. And that's pretty serious

683
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: because like GPS doesn't work that way. GPS just sends

684
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: out its messages and all the phones in the world

685
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: just can listen. It doesn't have to be bothered by

686
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: the fact that I'm using it and somebody else is

687
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: using it at the same time. But deep space network

688
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: gets tied up every time a satellite needs to figure

689
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 1: out its position. So they have a new idea for

690
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,120
Speaker 1: how to improve this, so they can be more like GPS.

691
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 4: I see how does that work? Just put more clocks

692
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: in it.

693
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: Or yes, build a really precise clock and put it

694
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: on the satellite. The most precise clocks we have are

695
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: atomic clocks. These are clocks that measure little atoms doing

696
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: very precise wiggles that like vibrated a very specific frequency.

697
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: One of the most precise things in the universe because

698
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: that just happens over and over and over again, exactly

699
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: the same timestep. But these atomic clocks, they're expensive and

700
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 1: they're big. And so the reason that we don't have

701
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: good clocks on satellites is because nobody's ever miniaturized them.

702
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: Oh so, NASA spent a lot of time building a

703
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: deep space atomic clock, basically a miniaturized version of an

704
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: atomic clock you can put on the satellite.

705
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 5: Uh.

706
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 4: And is it a lot smaller.

707
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lot smaller, and it's a lot cheaper,

708
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: and it's about the size of a toaster. Wow.

709
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 4: So you wouldn't want to wear this atomic clock.

710
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: It's not ready for wristwatch use.

711
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 4: Yes, if you want to be super untimed meetings and

712
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 4: podcast recordings could wear an atomic clock. But it might

713
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 4: be a little inconvenient.

714
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: No, And these atomic clocks cost you know, fifty to

715
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars, which amazingly is actually cheaper than

716
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: some wristwatches you can buy for wear. I never understood that.

717
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: But some people spend ridiculous like.

718
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 4: Gold plated iPhones.

719
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, Well, I spent a few years in Switzerland

720
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: where they have these ridiculous watch shops. You can go

721
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: in and spend two hundred thousand dollars on a fancy watch.

722
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: But it's like hand built with all these little levers

723
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,560
Speaker 1: gears it thereby you know, dwarves underground or something I don't.

724
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: Know, And it's not even as accurate as a toaster

725
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 4: exactly exactly.

726
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: I'll take a toaster's eyes atomic watch from my wrist

727
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: any day, any day. But the idea there is if

728
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: you have this atomic clock on the satellite, then it

729
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 1: can get messages from the deep space network that have

730
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: timestamps on them that say we sent this message at

731
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: whatever time, and it can just compare that to it's

732
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: atomic clock and they say, oh, it took x seconds

733
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 1: to get here. I can figure out where I am myself.

734
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: And that's a big step forward in what they call

735
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: autonomous satellite navigation, where the satellites are just sort of

736
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: driving themselves.

737
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: Right, then it's more like the GPS we have on

738
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 4: our phones.

739
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, and it can just be sort of passive.

740
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: The folks at home don't have to do these calculations

741
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: themselves and updated to the satellite. So there are fewer

742
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: links because the Deep Space network is kind of sort

743
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: of overburdened right now. It's got like too many things

744
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 1: to do. It's being time sliced between too many projects,

745
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: so this would really free it up, all.

746
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 4: Right, Well, it sounds like thinks at are looking good

747
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 4: for navigating within the Solar System. So we're getting better

748
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: clocks on these satellites and spacecraft, and we're also we

749
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 4: can also use familiar landmarks like Jupiter or other planets

750
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 4: or the Sun to sort of orient where we are

751
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: within the Solar System. That's right, But then it sort

752
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,400
Speaker 4: of gets stricier once we get out into space, right.

753
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, all these things still rely on being able to

754
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: contact Earth. You're getting these messages from the Deep Space Network,

755
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 1: which is on Earth, and if you want to navigate

756
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 1: to like Alpha Centauri or halfway across the galaxy, you

757
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: don't want to be getting messages from Earth. They're going

758
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: to be way too faint. You're not gonna be able

759
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: to pick the name. So you need a broader system.

760
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: You need a galaxy spanning system in order to get

761
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: you out of the Solar System and still make it

762
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 1: to McDonald's.

763
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 4: We need like a capital GPS galactic positioning system. All right, Well,

764
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 4: let's get into how you would actually navigate if you

765
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 4: wanted to venture out from the Solar System or even

766
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: go to another galaxy. But first, let's take a quick break.

767
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: When you pop a piece of cheese into your mouth

768
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're probably

769
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: not thinking about the environmental impact of each and every bite.

770
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: But the people in the dairy industry are us. Dairy

771
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including being greenhouse

772
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: gas neutral by twenty to fifty. That's why they're working

773
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: hard every day to find new ways to reduce waste,

774
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 1: conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions. Take water,

775
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,879
Speaker 1: for example, most dairy farms reuse water up to four

776
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,399
Speaker 1: times the same water cools the milk, cleans equipment, washes

777
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: the barn and irrigates the crops. How is US dairy

778
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that turn

779
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: the methane from maneure into renewable energy that can power farms, towns,

780
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: and electric cars. So the next time you grab a

781
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: slice of pizza or lick an ice cream cone, know

782
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: that dairy farmers and processors around the country are using

783
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:55,439
Speaker 1: the latest practices and innovations to provide the nutrient dense

784
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: dairy products we love with less of an impact. Visit

785
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: usdairy dot com slash sustain ability to learn more.

786
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 3: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

787
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,759
Speaker 3: recently hit the number one science podcast in America. I'm

788
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 3: a neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring

789
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 3: the three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at

790
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 3: a whole new series of episodes this season to understand

791
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 3: why and how our lives look the way they do.

792
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 3: Why does your memory drift so much? Why is it

793
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 3: so hard to keep a secret, When should you not

794
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 3: trust your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for

795
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 3: magic tricks?

796
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720
Speaker 1: And why do they love conspiracy theories.

797
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: I'm hitting these questions and hundreds more because the more

798
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 3: we know about what's running under the hood, the better

799
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 3: we can steer our lives. Join me weekly to explore

800
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 3: the relationship between your brain and your life by digging

801
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,240
Speaker 3: into unexpected questions. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

802
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

803
00:36:59,560 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 3: your pods.

804
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 13: Parents, are you looking for a screen free, engaging way

805
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 13: to teach your kids the Bible, one that's easy to

806
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 13: understand and enjoyable for multiple ages. Kids Bible Stories Podcast

807
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 13: is here to help. I created this for my own children,

808
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 13: and it's now a favorite among thousands of families. Kids

809
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,879
Speaker 13: love the vivid imagery, scriptures, and sound effects, while parents

810
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,760
Speaker 13: appreciate the apply section for meaningful conversations. We have hundreds

811
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 13: and hundreds of beautiful episodes that bring the Bible to

812
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 13: life when you simply press play. It's a sound and

813
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 13: practical resource that walks alongside you as you teach your kids.

814
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 13: We want kids to see how incredible God's word is

815
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 13: in an engaging and memorable way with Kids' Bible Stories Podcast.

816
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 13: Listen to Kids' Bible Stories podcast on the iHeartRadio app,

817
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 13: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

818
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 4: All right, there, we're talking about how to not get

819
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 4: lost in space.

820
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 1: Although that's such a fun shit is it?

821
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 4: You like that show that the new one or the

822
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:08,799
Speaker 4: old one?

823
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: I like the old one, but the new one's fun

824
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:11,800
Speaker 1: watching with the whole family because you know, it's a

825
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 1: bit of a family adventure, some family tension there. You know,

826
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: do you leave somebody behind if you were frozen underwater

827
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: on some alien moon, would your family stop and save

828
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: you or not?

829
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 5: Oh?

830
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:22,359
Speaker 2: Man?

831
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 4: To me, it was almost too much family drama. I'm like,

832
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 4: where's the space? And then getting lost in space? They're

833
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 4: like melting ice?

834
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I thought it was good anyway.

835
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 4: It was a lot of fun anyway. So yeah, it's

836
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 4: a problem if you go out into space, especially like

837
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 4: in another part of the galaxy where the stars are

838
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 4: in a totally different arrangement. How do you get around?

839
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 4: How do you know where you are and how do

840
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 4: you know where to go? So what can we do then, Daniel?

841
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, what you need is some other source of signals.

842
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: You either have a very accurate galactive map of where

843
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: all the stars are but as you say, these things

844
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: are changing in time, and we have only measurements from Earth,

845
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: and those positions are not that accurate. What you really

846
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: need is some sort of network of signals from all

847
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 1: over the galaxy sending you time stamped messages. I mean,

848
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 1: if you could design it yourself, you would have a

849
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: bunch of sources around the galaxy sending you messages saying

850
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: time equals one, time equals two, time equals three, right,

851
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 1: and from.

852
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,759
Speaker 4: Those like the like the GPS satellites we have just

853
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 4: now on Earth, you just.

854
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: Have If you just have GPS satellites all the way

855
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: through the galaxy, super powerful, that would be enough because

856
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: you could use the nearest satellites to figure out how

857
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: far you are from each one, and you'd need three

858
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 1: of them to triangulate your position in three D space,

859
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 1: and then you'd be golden. But you know that's a

860
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: trillion dollar program, right.

861
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 4: Could you use like galaxies to orient yoursell Like you know,

862
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 4: like if I'm in somewhere in the Milky Way, I

863
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 4: could tell where the center of the Milky Way was maybe,

864
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 4: and I could look for other galaxies out there and

865
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 4: sort of can I use that to orient myself?

866
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can get a rough orientation that way, right,

867
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: you can tell you know where Andromeda is relative to

868
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 1: the Milky Way, so you can spin yourself around and

869
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: tell where Andrameda is. But it's very rough. I mean,

870
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 1: Andrama is really far away, and so measuring its location

871
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:09,720
Speaker 1: precisely is not that helpful. We need much more precision

872
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: than you can get from just like fixing the positions

873
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,200
Speaker 1: of other galaxies, like, yeah, that'll tell you roughly. But

874
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: if you want to navigate and you want to save

875
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,719
Speaker 1: fuel and you want to make it with your thousand

876
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: frozen human bodies to Alpha Centauri or whatever, then you

877
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:24,759
Speaker 1: got to be more precise than that.

878
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 4: You don't want to miss by a few million kilometers.

879
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: You get it, You do not, And then they start

880
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 1: to warm up and they're, you know, expecting to land

881
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: on Alpha Centauri and have breakfast, and you didn't bring

882
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: any cross and.

883
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 4: So you're saying, the one idea could be, like to

884
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,800
Speaker 4: make these GPS satellites and put them all over the galaxy.

885
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 4: But that's really expensive.

886
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's ridiculous, Like we wouldn't even know how to

887
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: get them there. Right, that's the whole problem, And.

888
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 4: You're right, how would the satellites know where to go

889
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 4: or where they are? You'd have to like, how would

890
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,840
Speaker 4: we know where they are? We'd have to bootstrap them somehow.

891
00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: If you don't know where the satellites are, then then

892
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 4: very useful, right They're like, here's a signal from someplace

893
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:04,919
Speaker 4: we don't know, Thank you very much.

894
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: That's useless. So what you need to do is find

895
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: some naturally occurring equivalent something in the galaxy that operates

896
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: similar to GPS that'll let you figure out where you are.

897
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 1: And it turns out the galaxy provides it's.

898
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 4: Is it alien satellites? Danny? Are you going for the

899
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 4: alien button?

900
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: I didn't even think about the alien button, but now

901
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 1: I am. Now I'm wondering if aliens are using our

902
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: GPS system to navigate our solar system right to us. Yes, well,

903
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: if you entered a solar system that already had alien

904
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: civilization had GPS signals, then yeah, you could use it

905
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: without them even noticing because it's a passive system.

906
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 4: Right right, then maybe they're using us as a GPS

907
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,480
Speaker 4: exactly exactly.

908
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 1: That's the concern. But even without aliens, there are naturally occurring,

909
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 1: very regular clocks in our galaxy. Interesting, and they are

910
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: called pulsars.

911
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 4: Oh, you don't have to build them, they're already.

912
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: There, already there. We talked on the podcast before about

913
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: what happens when really massive stars collapse, that they blow up.

914
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 1: This is a supernova. And then if there's enough stuff

915
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:11,400
Speaker 1: in the center of it, in the core, but not

916
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: enough to make a black hole, it can form this

917
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: thing called a neutron star, which is a ridiculously dense

918
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,760
Speaker 1: ball of matter. It's called like the mass of the Sun,

919
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 1: but it's the size of a city.

920
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 4: Right, It's like almost a black hole.

921
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: It's almost a black hole. Yeah, if your star was

922
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 1: like eighty to thirty masses of the Sun, then you're

923
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: probably going to turn into a neutron star. If it

924
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 1: was heavier, then you probably get into a black hole.

925
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 1: But some of these neutron stars are amazing because they

926
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: have a magnetic field which is really intense. And the

927
00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 1: magnetic field means that there's a huge column of radiation

928
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: that's spewed out from the north magnetic field and the

929
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: south magnetic field. So they're like shining a really bright

930
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: light of radiation in two directions in space.

931
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 4: Right, Because the stars themselves don't shine that much, but

932
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 4: like the chaosic around them, with the magnetic field and

933
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 4: all the stuff around them, then that is what glows

934
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 4: and points in a particular direction.

935
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: Exactly. There's no fusion happening inside a neutron star, but

936
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,279
Speaker 1: there's still an intense amount of other radiation produced, and

937
00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: the magnetic field funnels it into these tight beams. And

938
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: then if the magnetic north pole is not aligned with

939
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 1: the spinning of the star right, if it's not perfectly

940
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: aligned like on Earth, then what you get is this

941
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: neutron star that's sweeping around. It's rotating, but the direction

942
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: in which its signal is beaming keeps scanning through the galaxy.

943
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 4: Like a galactic lighthouse, you know, like a spotlight that

944
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 4: just bins.

945
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 1: Just like that. Yeah, Or like just like on the

946
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,479
Speaker 1: top of a police car, you have this rotating red

947
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:47,080
Speaker 1: light and it never turns on off, but it looks

948
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 1: to you like it's flashing. So from Earth, if you

949
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 1: look at a pulsar, it goes on off, on off,

950
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: on off, on off, very regularly, just like a lighthouse

951
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: wood or a police light, and it's not actually turning

952
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: on off, it's just sort of sweeping past you, right.

953
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,279
Speaker 4: So we can use these to kind of tell where

954
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 4: we are, like as literally like lighthouses in space.

955
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 1: Sort of like lighthouses in space. And the reason is

956
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 1: that they're incredibly accurate. They have about as much regularity

957
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: as an atomic clock. Really, like these little particles in

958
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: very special conditions and cold climates and special laboratories are

959
00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: very regular. But these enormous, massive spinning hunks of neutrons

960
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: are also regular. And so they're basically like a very

961
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: powerful galactic clock that's constantly descending out a pulse like

962
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:36,439
Speaker 1: tick tick tick tick.

963
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 4: Whoa suddenly that makes a nice guy a little more stressful.

964
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 4: It's full of ticking clocks. But it's like crazy periods too, right,

965
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 4: It's not like tick tick tick tick, it's like every

966
00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 4: twenty milliseconds they're shining.

967
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 1: There's a big variety of them, from radio pulsars down

968
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: to X ray pulsars. It depends, as you say, on

969
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: their period. And these ones that are very fast and

970
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: like twenty milliseconds, these are the best ones to use

971
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: for timing. And it's hard to imagine like an enormous

972
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 1: super dense star boiled down into a tiny object that

973
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: spins every twenty milliseconds. Right, It's like, hey, thousands and

974
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 1: thousands of times a second, this huge thing is spinning.

975
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: It's an incredible amount of energy and.

976
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,200
Speaker 4: It's mind blowing. So we can use these because we

977
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 4: know from Earth where they are, and so if you're

978
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 4: out there in space, you could maybe find them by

979
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 4: looking out, and then you can tell kind of where

980
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 4: you are because you could recognize them by what they're period.

981
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, each one has its own fingerprint because of its period,

982
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: and you already know where they are, so you find them,

983
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,359
Speaker 1: you identify them. You're like, okay, this is pulsar XJA

984
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 1: seventeen or whatever, and then you listen to the pulses,

985
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: you know, tick tick tick, and based on the pulses

986
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,279
Speaker 1: that you hear, you can tell where in the waveform

987
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: you are. Now, the problem is they don't send messages

988
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: like the GPS satellite. It's a GPS satellite. Say okay,

989
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 1: it's time equals seven, it's time equals eight, and then

990
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: when it gets to you, you can compare against your

991
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: own clock. You have like synchronized clocks on each side,

992
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 1: so you can measure how long it takes the signal

993
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: to get there. That's from the GPS pulsars aren't as convenient.

994
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: They don't have a clock built in that labels each

995
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 1: pulse separately, so it's harder to tell exactly how long

996
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 1: it took the pulse to get there.

997
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 4: Right, But why do you need to know that? Couldn't

998
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 4: you just kind of look where they are, you know

999
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 4: the angle to you, and then use like three or

1000
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,359
Speaker 4: four of them to kind of triangulate where you are.

1001
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: What you really want to know is your distance to

1002
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: an individual pulsar, because that defines your position on the

1003
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: surface of a sphere that surrounds that pulsar. Then you

1004
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: do it for another pulsar, and then your distance is

1005
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: defined by where those spheres intersect. If you do it

1006
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 1: for three pulsars, then you can figure out where your

1007
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: distance is exactly in three D space. You're right that

1008
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: you can tell roughly where you are by the angles,

1009
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: but that's not precise enough. What you really want to

1010
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 1: know is the distance to these things.

1011
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 4: Really, why is the angle not precise enough?

1012
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: Because these things are really really far away, right, and

1013
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,360
Speaker 1: so a pretty big change in the location of the

1014
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 1: pulsar relative to you corresponds to a really small change

1015
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: in the angle. So what you really want to know

1016
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: is the radial distance, not just the angle.

1017
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 4: Oh, I see, it works if you're moving a huge distances,

1018
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 4: but like kind of tell you, like by the meter

1019
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 4: where you are.

1020
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, or if you're really close to something, like if

1021
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: you're really close to Jupiter, then it's angle relative to

1022
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: you has a lot of powerful information about your location.

1023
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: But if Jupiter is really far away, then that information

1024
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: loses value. And all these pulsars are pretty far away.

1025
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,040
Speaker 1: But there's actually a really cool trick to overcoming this

1026
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: problem of pulsars not being like GPS.

1027
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 4: Satellites just using because correct, because I don't have the timestamp.

1028
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 4: They just have a pulse.

1029
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, So all you know is where you are on

1030
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,960
Speaker 1: the pulse. And so say these pulses are like, you know,

1031
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: a kilometer long, for example, So if you listen to

1032
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: a specific pulsar, then you could tell where you are

1033
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 1: within that one kilometer long pulse. You're like, oh, I'm

1034
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: at the top of it, or I'm at the bottom

1035
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 1: of it, or I mean the quiet part of it

1036
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: or the loud part of it. That doesn't actually tell

1037
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: you how far you are from the pulsar. What you

1038
00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: know is how far you are through one pulse length,

1039
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 1: but you don't know how many more pulse lengths there

1040
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,319
Speaker 1: are between you and the pulsar. If you know you're

1041
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 1: halfway through its pulse, then you could be half a

1042
00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 1: pulse length away from the original pulsar. Or you could

1043
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: be one and a half pulse lengths away, or three

1044
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,320
Speaker 1: hundred and forty two and a half pulse lengths away.

1045
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: There's an infinite number of possibilities. So instead of locating

1046
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: you onto a single sphere when you know the distance,

1047
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,479
Speaker 1: it's actually giving you an infinite number of spheres, each

1048
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: one one pulse length away, because all of those are

1049
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: consistent with what you're seeing. That's not as good as GPS,

1050
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 1: but you know it can still work because you can

1051
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,320
Speaker 1: do the same thing for another pulsar and get another

1052
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: set of spheres, and then find a third pulsar and

1053
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 1: get a third set of spheres, and where those spheres

1054
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 1: intersect is the number of places that you could be

1055
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: places that are consistent with the signals you're seeing. It's

1056
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: not just one place. It's not a unique solution. There's

1057
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: still a few ambiguities. There's more than one possible location

1058
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: that's consistent with those signals, and then you have to

1059
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: figure out which one is yours based on where you

1060
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,160
Speaker 1: thought you were recently, and you know other clues.

1061
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 4: I see you're sort of converting the timestamp of these

1062
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: pulses to like using the speed of light to kind

1063
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 4: of tell where you are in terms of space.

1064
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you don't know exactly how far you

1065
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,560
Speaker 1: away you are from the pulsar. You know, like, I'm

1066
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: a certain number of beats of this pulsar's pulse away

1067
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 1: plus a little bit, you know, only that extra little bit.

1068
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 1: And so there's lots of different solutions, lots of different

1069
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,400
Speaker 1: possibilities for how far you might be away from one pulsar.

1070
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: But if you have two or three or four, then

1071
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: you can narrow it down. You can say I'm a

1072
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: certain distance from this one, a certain distance from that one.

1073
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 1: It's a harder problem because these pulsars aren't nicely timestamped,

1074
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 1: but people have figured it out, and if you do

1075
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: all the mathematics, you can figure out where you are

1076
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: in the Solar System to within five kilometers.

1077
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 4: Wow, that's pretty good.

1078
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 1: That's pretty good.

1079
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,800
Speaker 4: That's better than the two hundred from before.

1080
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, it's pretty good. And it works all the

1081
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 1: way across the galaxy, not just within our solar system.

1082
00:50:12,520 --> 00:50:14,919
Speaker 1: So you can be really far from even if Earth

1083
00:50:15,000 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 1: in blodes in nuclear war, you can still figure out

1084
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 1: where you are.

1085
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 4: From these pulsars. Are the pulsars distributed all over the

1086
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 4: galaxy or are we only looking at the ones around us?

1087
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: They're distributed across the galaxy. People have done a study

1088
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: and they found like fifty or sixty good X ray

1089
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 1: pulsars that are distributed well enough across the galaxy that

1090
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: you could use them as reference points.

1091
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:36,839
Speaker 4: Oh wow.

1092
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: So and they've actually tried this. They've done it. They've

1093
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: built a little one and they flewid on the International

1094
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 1: Space Station and they tried it and it worked.

1095
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 4: Oh wow. Pretty cool. All right, So it sounds like

1096
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 4: we do have a GPS for the galaxy. We have

1097
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 4: a galactic pulsar system. You should also call it GPS.

1098
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: It's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I love this idea

1099
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: of like, you know, astronomers don't get to build what

1100
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 1: they want, They just get to look out there and

1101
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: find stuff and use it to be clever to extract

1102
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 1: the information they need. And here's another great example of

1103
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: just like making do with what you have.

1104
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,959
Speaker 4: Right, It's almost like a nature in the universe made

1105
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,200
Speaker 4: these lighthouses and put them all over the galaxy just

1106
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 4: for us to kind of use to get around.

1107
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not just for us, but it would be

1108
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: a cool science fiction universe where we actually visit one

1109
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 1: of these pulsars and discover, oh, they're artificial. Maybe they're

1110
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 1: part of some Allien global positions stem.

1111
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 4: Oh it is a lighthouse. Yeah, it didn't occur naturally.

1112
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be pretty awesome. That would be worth

1113
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: some echoes in space space space space space space.

1114
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,359
Speaker 4: Cool cool cool. All right, Well, I feel a lot

1115
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:44,479
Speaker 4: better now about Star Wars and about other science fiction

1116
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 4: movies and books. It sounds like in the future we

1117
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 4: could be using these pulsars to kind of know where

1118
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:51,840
Speaker 4: we are in the galaxy and to kind of build

1119
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 4: a map of the entire place.

1120
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as we venture out further and further beyond

1121
00:51:56,840 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: our solar system and try to explore other solar systems,

1122
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: this will be a critical way to know where we

1123
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: are and hopefully how to come home.

1124
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so future space explorers flying around with their

1125
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,919
Speaker 4: partners and spouses can not argue about where they are

1126
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 4: getting lost, which would probably make for a messy divorce

1127
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 4: out in space.

1128
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: Well, they probably still argue, like, let's not use that pulsar.

1129
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: That one's not reliable. Everybody's using that pulsar.

1130
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 4: You sound like you sound like your father. All right, Well,

1131
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 4: I hope that was interesting and gives you a little

1132
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 4: bit more of a sense that we kind of know

1133
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 4: where we are in the universe and the galaxy, and

1134
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 4: that it would be a little bit hard to get

1135
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:36,000
Speaker 4: lost in space.

1136
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: That's right. And this idea of pulsars took decades to

1137
00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: figure out to narrow down to make it work, and

1138
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: it only gives us five kilometer uncertainty. Probably somebody out

1139
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: there will have an even better idea for how to

1140
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: narrow down our position. So have that idea today so

1141
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: that it's ready for us to use in twenty or

1142
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 1: thirty years.

1143
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 4: That's right. You don't want to miss those snacks, you know.

1144
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,359
Speaker 4: If you miss that snack by five kilometers, that's that's

1145
00:52:58,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 4: not good. I'm not eating that thing.

1146
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:01,799
Speaker 1: If you learn nothing else today. Remember there are no

1147
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,880
Speaker 1: U turns in space or echoes, but there probably are snacks.

1148
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 4: All right, Thanks for joining us, See you next time.

1149
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain

1150
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts

1151
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

1152
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. When you pop a

1153
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Speaker 1: piece of cheese into your mouth, you're probably not thinking

1154
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Speaker 1: about the environmental impact. But the people in the dairy

1155
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1156
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1157
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Speaker 1: Sustainability to learn more.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which

1163
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:18,799
Speaker 3: recently hit the number one science.

1164
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Speaker 1: Podcast in America.

1165
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 3: I mean neuroscientists at Stanford and I've spent my career

1166
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 3: exploring the three pound universe in our heads.

1167
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,360
Speaker 1: Join me weekly to explore the relationship.

1168
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 3: Between your brain and your life, Because the more we

1169
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 3: know about what's running under the hood better we can

1170
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 3: steer our lives. Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman

1171
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get

1172
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:42,640
Speaker 3: your podcasts.

1173
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 7: I'm doctor Laurie Santos, host of the Happiness Lab podcast.

1174
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 7: As the US elections approach, you can feel like we're

1175
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 7: angrier and more divided than ever, But in a new

1176
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 7: hopeful season of my podcast I'll Share with the Science

1177
00:54:57,760 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 7: Really shows it was surprisingly more united than most people think.

1178
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 5: We all know something is wrong in our culture, in

1179
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 5: our politics, and that we need to do better, and

1180
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 5: that we can do better.

1181
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 7: Listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you

1182
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:13,640
Speaker 7: listen to podcasts.