WEBVTT - Punishment and Accountability 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.760 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wika FA Daily with 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.920 Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody recording not So Live from 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.720 the Brooklyn Silarium. Folks. I'm really excited to bring you 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:27.800 this conversation today with the innovation director of an organization 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.640 called Impact Justice. Aisha to Yusuf is a person who 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:35.760 has been working for the last several years of her career, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.960 but since the founding of Impact Justice in twenty fifteen, 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:43.639 on reimagining what our criminal justice system should and can 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:48.159 look like. In the conversation, we get into all of 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.360 the ways in which you know, society has honestly been 0:00:51.479 --> 0:00:55.680 built to opt to dehumanize people. Right. There are systems 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.840 right that are at play that force people into make 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.360 unthinkable choices because they feel like they don't have any 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.480 other choices to make. And what does it mean in 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.600 a society that is supposed to be industrialized, that is 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:12.800 supposed to house the land of the free and when 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:17.720 we look at how we treat these folks that are incarcerated, right, 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:22.360 I don't think that because you commit a crime that 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:26.360 you should lose your humanity, but that's exactly what has 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.760 been happening in our criminal justice system ever since its inception. 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:33.399 You know, I've often said on woke af that the 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.880 criminal justice system isn't broken. It's working exactly the way 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.039 that it was intended to work. It is locking up 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:44.920 black and brown people. Right. If you watched Ava Durbnay's 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:48.400 thirteenth Amendment, you learned all about the ways in which 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:54.160 this system was created to create another mechanism for forced labor. Right, 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:58.120 Like we hear stories every summer that there are fires 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:02.240 in California raging across the state. We learn about the 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:08.239 fact that they are firefighters who are actually incarcerated, that 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.560 aren't even being paid a dollar a day to literally 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:16.040 fight deadly fires. But then when those same people get 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:18.880 out of prison, they wouldn't be able to go and 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.280 get a job as a firefighter, even though that is 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:24.600 exactly what they were doing while they were in prison. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:27.400 So what does it mean that we set up these 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.040 systems right that are not about rehabilitation, They are not 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:37.320 about accountability, but instead they are steeped in punishment. And 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:40.079 I've been thinking about this a lot since the conversation 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:45.280 I had with Ice too, because the reality is in America, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:51.040 we believe deeply in punishment. It's actually one of our foundations. Right, 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.639 If what do you think that the laws right now 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.520 that are crumbling all around us with regard to a 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:00.959 woman's right to an abortion or a person with a 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:03.799 uterus's right to an abortion, what do you think that 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.600 that is about? That is about punishing women, right for 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.840 having the audacity to want to have autonomy over their bodies. 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.440 Right for being able to say that, you know what, 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.360 we are over fifty percent of the population and we 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.560 get a say on when, where, and if we decide 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.679 to have children. But then you had lawmakers, particularly obviously 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:28.080 Republican lawmakers, who were putting into practice a couple of 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:33.239 years ago, transvaginal ultrasounds before women go and get an abortion. Well, 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:40.160 when you ask the medical doctors, are trans transvaginal ultrasounds necessary, right, 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.480 they told no, there's actually no medical use for that 0:03:44.920 --> 0:03:49.280 before we were to administer an abortion. But the point 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.960 of it was humiliation, The point of it was harm. Right, 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:59.640 And so when we hear stories ever infrequently, particularly during 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:04.200 COVID in twenty twenty, I was wondering, when we're talking 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:08.640 about social distancing and wearing masks, we were looking to 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:15.440 the looking to the prison system to ramp up the 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:20.880 production of masks, to ramp up the production of hand 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:25.760 sanitizer and other metrics of cleanings. And guess what, those 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:30.320 same prisoners that we're working for no money to produce 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.880 and keep the country safe weren't allowed to use the 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:39.000 hand sanitizer or the masks. But we didn't hear about 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.599 massive COVID outbreaks in these facilities because we don't give 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:48.320 a fuck. Like that's the reality is that in America. 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:51.280 I recognize that we are a country that really is 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:54.760 a bunch of fucking ostriches that want to bury our 0:04:54.760 --> 0:04:57.560 heads in the sand. You see. We want to say 0:04:57.600 --> 0:05:01.159 that we lock up the bad people and throwaway the key, 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:05.839 except we get to pick and choose who is bad 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:09.520 and who is good, who is worth rehabilitating, and who 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.200 isn't who. When we were listening to the Kyle Rittenhouse 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.400 trial and everybody's talking about that motherfucker's future, I don't 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.520 ever remember hearing anybody talk about what about Trayvon Martin's future, 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:26.599 what about Tamere Rice's future? Right when it's black and 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.680 brown people that are the victims, we don't get to 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.080 have our humanity front and center. And so one of 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.799 the questions that I asked I should too, is how 0:05:36.000 --> 0:05:41.760 is it that you humanize the incarcerated when free black 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:46.640 and brown people are not able to experience the fullness 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.800 of their humanity because we are being looked at through 0:05:49.920 --> 0:05:54.400 the white gaze and filter. Right, we're out here marching 0:05:54.480 --> 0:05:56.479 and screaming on the top of our lungs that black 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:01.240 lives matter, because they fucking don't. And so it's you know, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:08.400 to be in a job that is about humanizing those 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.760 that we choose to see as animals. And what I 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:17.159 find really just frustrating is that we spend more money 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:23.000 more money keeping people locked up, keeping people in violent 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:28.839 dysfunction then we do on our education system. Right. One 0:06:28.880 --> 0:06:30.760 of the things that I should too will talk about 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:35.560 is the food in prisons, right, forcing people to eat 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:40.520 food that is literally labeled not for human consumption, but 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.440 because we are telling these people and reinforcing every single day, 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:48.320 every hour of every day, that they are worthless, what 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.840 do we think is going to happen when they're released, 0:06:51.400 --> 0:06:54.480 because then we put them into a situation where not 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.320 only have we finally gotten to a place to ban 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.800 the fucking box so that people can actually re enter society, 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:05.320 but what is it that we think that they are 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:08.320 re entering society with. It is not a better sense 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.720 of self. It is not a sense of accountability. It 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:13.400 is not a sense that I want to be a 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.920 part of this society. It's that I have had pain 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:21.480 and violence inflicted on me for however many months or years, 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.600 and now I have even more internalized trauma than I'm 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:29.920 going to act out like. It's not rocket science. Why 0:07:30.000 --> 0:07:33.880 there is such high recidivism rates because we don't create 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:37.920 a system that views everyone equally, that says that people 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:43.360 are worthy just by virtue of being fucking human. We 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:49.960 spend so much energy trying to change systems that are 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.280 working exactly the way that they should. But one of 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.080 the things that I should too, will say as well, 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.880 is that you know she is not cynical. Is that 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.800 she cannot afford cynicism in this job because she wouldn't 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:05.960 be able to do it. And it got me to thinking, right, 0:08:06.040 --> 0:08:08.600 because I refer to myself as a cynic I say 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.960 that I'm probably one of the most hopeless people. And 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:14.720 somebody had said to me the other day too, They're like, Danielle, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.280 you're not because if you were, you wouldn't do this 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.200 show if you were, you wouldn't get so enraged every 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:24.160 single day. You get enraged and frustrated, right, and you're 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.360 filled with this type of passion because you want to 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.160 see better. You want people to be better, and you 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:34.880 believe that they can if given enough information. And one 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.640 of the things that she says is the same that 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:42.120 we have to believe that we can be better. We 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.280 have to believe that we can do better, because if 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.280 we think that this is it right, that this is 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:53.160 as good as it gets, then we are fucking future generations. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:55.719 You know. One of the things that I will end 0:08:55.760 --> 0:09:02.320 on in our interview is this, Those that were formerly 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:07.520 enslaved right believed in a better day. They prayed for 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.080 a better day. They fought for a better day. They 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.560 fought for a freedom that many of them knew that 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.080 they would never see, that they would never experience, but 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.160 they did so anyway. And that is something that I 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:23.960 need to remind myself of on a daily basis. And 0:09:24.000 --> 0:09:26.680 I want to remind all of you that, yes, the 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:30.640 times that we are totally living in right now, absolutely 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:35.160 and one hundred percent feel eternally fucked, and it may 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:39.000 be for quite some time, but just because we may 0:09:39.080 --> 0:09:43.280 not experience. Right, the equity that we are fighting for 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.760 each and every day doesn't mean that it is not 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.800 worth fighting for. And that is the reminder that I 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.560 got in my interview coming up next with Isshatu Yusef 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:59.920 of Impact Justice Folks. I am very happy to well 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:02.760 come to wok F for the very first time, hopefully 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:05.679 not the last time. I should too. Yusef, who is 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:10.840 the director of Innovative Programs at Impact Justice and Impact 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:15.640 Justice Folks, is a national innovation and research center advancing 0:10:15.679 --> 0:10:19.080 new ideas and solutions for justice reform, which, as we 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.000 talk about on wok F, is desperately needed. I should too. 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:26.920 Thank you so much for joining and you know, this 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:33.120 must be a really precarious time to be in the 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.839 work of justice reform and kind of reimagining what an 0:10:37.880 --> 0:10:41.880 actual justice system would look like. Can you talk to us, 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.680 just give us a better picture of Impact Justice and 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.760 the work that you all have been doing since the 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:53.040 inception in twenty fifteen. Yeah, so I'm super excited to 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.280 be here as well. I'm clearly a fan and I 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:57.640 didn't think I did a chance to do this. I'm 0:10:57.640 --> 0:11:00.480 super excited to speak with you. Yeah, so should tun 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.280 The director of Innovation Programs. And you know what's interesting, 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:05.679 I've we've gotten a lot of asks around what's it 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:07.960 like to be in the justice system now that everyone's 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:09.599 talking about it, you know, and what I think is 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:12.040 really interesting and not that much has changed for us, 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.040 aside the fact that people want to actually listen to 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.080 us sometimes now right the you know, you know, I 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:19.280 think that you know what's real is that you know 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:21.480 I've been I've been in back to most of my career. 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:23.400 I've been in justice work. UM. And the folks that 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.920 are really in the trenches, both on the advocacy research side, 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.520 have been in doing this work for a long time, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.520 a lot of it silently or a lot of it 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.040 like beating downdoors. And so I think what has changed 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.160 the last few years is that people actually well, people 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.800 that have like a moral compass, that want to actually 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:40.880 talk about it and are more are more interested in 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:42.680 hearing about what it is we've been screaming about for 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.040 a really long time. UM. And so Impact Justice has 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.079 been around for six years. Although we have every most 0:11:48.080 --> 0:11:50.000 people in that organization, I've been doing this work for 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:52.280 a really long time. UM. We are a research and 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:55.400 innovation organization right. Research is what we say a proxy 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:58.720 for knowledge and innovation is really about risk and imagination 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.520 and possibility, and because we work in such an antiquated system, 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.679 both of those things are highly necessary. What's unfortunate is 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:07.920 at our risk and possibility because the way the system 0:12:07.960 --> 0:12:11.000 is set up is around people, right. But at the 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.080 same time, we have to able to think differently about 0:12:13.120 --> 0:12:16.120 how do we really impact the justice system and impact justice. 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.120 We think about that and kind of four distinct ways, 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.880 which is diversion, which means how do we keep people 0:12:20.920 --> 0:12:23.080 out of the system. There's a huge conversation that's been 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:26.480 happening nationally around the reduction of mass incarceration. That is 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.120 actually a bipartisan conversation in a lot of ways. But 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.320 the way we really hit to mass incarceration is like 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.160 keeping people out from the very beginning. We do that 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:36.080 by diversion a lot of our storave justice practices things 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.280 like that. The second piece we think about is what 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:41.719 the term is called conditions of confinement. I hate the term, 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.880 but that's the term folks use, and that's really thinking 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.000 about what's happening to people, why they are inside. What 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.719 is unfortunate is now oftentimes in our system, we lock 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:51.280 the key and throw it away and throw them inside, 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:53.480 and they're like, they're in there. Ye, what's real is 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:55.880 that they are humans. They are people, and they will 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.320 get out. Right. Ninety eight percent of people that are 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.280 incarcerated get out. So if we don't providing both dignity, 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:03.560 respect and care for them while they're in there, the 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:05.319 person that comes out is probably not the person you 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:07.400 want to wear neighborood because you tortured them and cause 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.280 intense trauma. So a lot of the work we do 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.960 is around conditions of confinement, have sexual as salt, the 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.240 food that they eat, things like that. The third piece 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.160 we do is abound re entry, which is right the 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:20.480 folks that ninety eight percent of folks that go in 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:22.839 will come out. So one of the work, kind of 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:24.760 the two pillars that we really focus on, is really 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:27.760 around how do you provide the necessary resources to provide 0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.440 people with the things that they need upon reentry, housing, 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:35.560 a job, navigation, and that's both juvenile and adult because 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.280 both those folks in the folks coming out, we want 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.080 to adhere to that. And then all of that, as 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.480 we said, I said, was rooted in research, which is 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:44.680 a proxy for knowledge. Everything we do is not just 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:48.559 evidence based practice, but also we use participatory research, which 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.160 means we actually talk to the people that are that 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:53.720 we're talking about that word, pack those system to actually 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:56.000 help build our programs out to make mehia adhere to 0:13:56.000 --> 0:14:00.880 what it is their needs are so i AD impact justice. 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:02.200 We do all that. We've done that for the last 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:04.320 six years. Most of us have done that for mucho longer. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.360 But you know, the truth is is given the kind 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:09.280 of rise and even from you know, George Floyd and 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:11.719 Brianna's hair and all of those things, you know what 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:15.200 ended up happening was the stuff that we did every 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.120 single day, people wanted to hear about more. And that 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.920 was in a lot of ways great, right, because people 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:24.680 were interested in hearing about the atrocities that are happening 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:29.520 to particularly black communities, particularly Native communities and brown communities, right, 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:31.960 and so it just gave rise to people actually wanted 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:33.960 to listen to what we want to say. It doesn't 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:37.800 mean that the people actually heard it differently. Doesn't also 0:14:37.920 --> 0:14:40.800 mean that. It also doesn't mean that, like you know, 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.520 more dollars came to support organizations like ours in some 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.080 cases but not always and it doesn't mean that we 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.040 you know, that we have easier time changing policies and 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.200 laws because their policies and laws. But what it does 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:53.880 mean is that we get to have the voice of 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.520 the people that are impacted a little bit louder. And 0:14:56.560 --> 0:15:01.640 it also did mean that more people were alerted to 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.040 the issues that impact around in black and poor communities, 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.080 which I think is the biggest difference. What I saw 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.920 almost instantly were people that work in completely different field, 0:15:10.560 --> 0:15:13.280 who don't have to do, who don't well, they don't 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.160 know they do, but often don't know that they know 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.920 someone's been incarcerated. I don't live in poor communities, right, 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:21.960 being like, wait, what's going on? You know? Tell me 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.000 about that, you know? And so I think that process 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.880 and that outcome is a good outcome, a terrible reason 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:30.520 to have that outcome, that it was a good outcome 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.720 that we got to bring people into the conversation that 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.880 didn't care before and didn't know to care. You know, 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.000 I want to talk about you know, thank you so 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.640 much for giving that rundown because I think that it's 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:46.640 it's it's really exciting work that you are doing. Because 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:51.040 I don't oftentimes think that we have an opportunity to 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.680 really truly reimagine. Right, it's just kind of, you know, 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.520 it is. It is the status quo, so we'll just 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.760 kind of stick with what is and not imagine that 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.160 there could be something that is different. The part that 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:07.960 sticks out for me is the condition of confinement. And 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:11.240 the reason why that sticks out for me is because, 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:14.000 first of all, I mean, I don't need to go 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.320 into the history of how black and brown people are 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.280 looked at in this country in general. Right. It is 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:22.400 you know, the opportunity has always been lock them up, 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.400 throw away the key, force labor, you know, force birth, whatever, 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.040 whatever it is, it is, it has the fight has 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:34.160 always been about the humanization of black people, right. And 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.960 so when you think about who is actually incarcerated in 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:40.920 mass it is black and brown men, right, and on 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:46.400 the rise is women as well, And it's hard. The 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:49.000 question that I have for you is how is it 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:53.600 that you how do you work to humanize those that 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:57.640 are incarcerated when we are having such a goddamn problem 0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.720 with trying to humanize those of us that are outside 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:04.600 of bars, right. And so it's so to me, it's 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:11.800 like you can justify the animalistic treatment because you believe 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.760 those people to be animals from the jump, right, And 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:17.359 so it's like, how how do you how do you 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.560 do that work? How do you go about um doing 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:25.000 that work and having people understand that to your point, 0:17:25.119 --> 0:17:28.000 ninety eight percent of people who are incarcerated will in 0:17:28.080 --> 0:17:34.160 fact be released. What are they being released as? Right? Yeah? 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.120 Um uh. That questions pack with a lot of stuff. 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.240 So I'm gonna talk for a whole I'm gonna forgive me, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.040 I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you a chump go. 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.199 What I think is what I think is important to 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:45.520 be at the end of your statement, which was around like, right, 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.080 when you animalize people and you it's easier to it's 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:50.439 easier to do that, you know. It's it's not just 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:52.560 the fact that we've decided that black and brown and 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:54.720 poor people are animals. It's that we don't know them, 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.639 we don't care to know them, and then we literally 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.960 pick them make them invisible. Right, That's why erration does right. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.679 And it's been and it's been and it's done from 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:04.680 the beginning of time. I actually was listening to one 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.240 of your UM sessions that you did a couple of 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:10.679 days ago that actually you said in there um right, like, 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:12.679 let's get back to what they Let's get back to 0:18:12.680 --> 0:18:14.639 what the justice system was supposed to do, right, But 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.560 the truth there is no that. But it's doing what 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:18.840 it's supposed to do. It's the right ways meant right, right, 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:23.840 it was always meant to isolate individuals and prior to 0:18:24.000 --> 0:18:26.600 like I mean, you know, like incarceration in some ways 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.800 have been around for a really long time. Right before 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:32.479 the enslavement happened, they were like isolated white people, right, 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.000 That's what they were doing, right. It's just that when 0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:36.600 enslavement happened, a colonization happened, that you became poor people, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.440 which were black people, and filling the blank all that, 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:41.560 and so what I think is important to just differentiate 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.800 in there is that it's not just that we see 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.040 people that have committed crimes or poor people or black 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.960 people as animals or as not human, but that we 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:53.040 don't want that, but that society doesn't want to see 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.320 them unless you unless they're seen and the gaze of whiteness. 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.040 And they also put them but the reason is like 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.520 a system of of isolation exists. It's because they don't 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.840 even they throw them away. They're like you didn't meet 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:06.720 the society standard. I actually don't want to see or 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:08.720 you don't exist to me, and that makes it easy, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.000 right that when that makes it easy to think about 0:19:11.000 --> 0:19:12.440 people as bad because I don't have to see and 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:14.760 I don't know them, but I'm gonna go down. That 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:16.119 was the end, to go back to the beginning of 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.919 your kind of question. So I am super lucky, and 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.800 that in my title is innovation, right, which means I 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.760 get to think differently about how we impact our systems. 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:26.840 So what here's a couple of truths, is that the 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.160 justice system or the legal system is what we call 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:35.160 it is antiquated. Right. It is rooted in every system 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.280 of harm that could ever exist, from sexism to racism 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:44.280 to xenophobia. Right to you know that every system of 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.400 harm is what the system is rooted in. Right, Even 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.080 before we had words like xenophobia, right, it was rooted 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:52.360 in an anti immigration, even before we had the titles 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:55.359 of LGBTQI people, it was rooted in anti gain its right, 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:56.800 it was it rooted in all these things. And so 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:59.000 it just acts it out in different ways now. And 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.320 so when you really think about changing policies and laws, 0:20:01.359 --> 0:20:04.720 I stand strong and support all of those lawmakers and 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:06.960 lobbyists that are working to change a lot of policies 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:09.120 for that, because we need that at the same time, 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.400 but also some of the work that we do, right 0:20:11.680 --> 0:20:13.959 is that while that's happening and we support that and 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.399 do all this, we can also create programming that actually 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.760 can change the outcome for people. Why these things are 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.720 happening simultaneously, right, and so for as an example, like 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.200 right right now, there's a lot happening in the California 0:20:24.280 --> 0:20:27.720 legislatures around housing and housing formally incarcerated people. So why 0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.640 y'all figure that out and why you use our work 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.960 and we do all that to help the policy change. 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:35.119 We've created a program that houses formally incarcerated people in 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.399 community homes. Right, So these things can happen simultaneously, and 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.200 we do that in many of our innovative projects because 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.880 I think what's important is, you know, this law take 0:20:43.920 --> 0:20:46.720 a long time to change. Policy takes a long time 0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.840 to change, and as that happens, there is other things 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.440 that we can be doing, which is creating programs to 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:55.240 see the dignity of people, so conditions of confinement to 0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:57.959 get into your big question around that, right, Yeah, So right, 0:20:58.000 --> 0:21:01.320 there's there's a bit there's a status quote benefit by 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.080 throwing somebody in a cell and saying like you're done, 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:05.640 you committed a crime. But what I think is really 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:08.440 important to be clear about, right, is why this is easy. 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:10.639 It is because people want to ignore the systemic processes 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.720 of this. Right. Most people that committed crimes didn't just 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:15.480 like wake up one morning you'd be like, I'm gonna 0:21:15.560 --> 0:21:18.640 rob that bank. That's not what happened, right, It's because 0:21:19.200 --> 0:21:22.120 they are reared in communities that have violence in them. Right. 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.840 These communities are violent typically because they lack resources. Right, 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:28.560 and not just like resources today, I'm like going back 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:32.880 to enslavement resources, right, resources to education, resources to add 0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:35.840 to jobs, resource to mental healthcare, all of these things 0:21:35.880 --> 0:21:38.520 that without them lead to what we see today. And 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.000 so right, and so when we start talking about people 0:21:41.040 --> 0:21:43.399 that are incarcerated, you have to see the entire human 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:46.600 for you to really understand what happened. And that is 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:48.399 why the the status quo doesn't like to see the 0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:50.920 entire human. Right. They like to seem like, oh, there 0:21:50.920 --> 0:21:54.280 goes someone who committed a crime. And this is not 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.720 to admit it. This is not to say that the 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:58.719 crime they committed is any like you know, I was 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:02.280 throwing the blank, crime is not any less important or 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:05.000 impactful like it was hard, right, it was harm to somebody. 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:07.480 But in order to understand how you both write, do 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:09.920 what the justice system says, which is around rehabilitation. But 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.679 you have rehabilitate somebody. Is talk is dealing with the 0:22:12.720 --> 0:22:15.680 whole person. And if they're in a system where sexual 0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:18.840 violence is rampant, right, and that's where both people that 0:22:18.880 --> 0:22:22.720 identify as male and female and identify as other genders, right, rampant, 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:24.520 how the heck do you think that they're going to 0:22:24.560 --> 0:22:27.000 come out of healed rehability person if they were literally 0:22:27.000 --> 0:22:29.680 in fear for their lives and that is and that 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:32.440 is not I'm talking. I'm not just talking about the 0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.160 people that are incarcerated, right, They're in fear filmal lives 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:37.600 based upon the people that are in charge of prisons. Right. 0:22:37.640 --> 0:22:39.800 This isn't just like their fellow inmate that are talking 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.199 about this, like these are people. They harm is created, 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.080 is given, is put upon them from the people that 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:47.720 are running these institutions, right, And so if we're not 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:49.800 talking about that, then how are we going to get 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:52.840 to actually what their actual crime was Right, when we 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.400 think of what we feed people, Right, every single day 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.760 of your life, you get to choose the meal you eat. 0:22:57.920 --> 0:22:59.880 And you grew up in a society which they told 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:02.600 you all about the pyramid, told you all about what 0:23:02.640 --> 0:23:04.480 you should and should not eat and how it impacts 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:07.040 your body, your health, and your choices. Right, Why is 0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:10.400 that same conversation not part of the acarcetral system. When 0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:14.600 we feed people terrible food, we expect them to act 0:23:14.680 --> 0:23:17.800 differently and to be differently. Right. What's important to think about. Also, 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.040 most people that are incarcerated, right, they come from marginalized communities. Right, 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.000 So what they so they go in with a set 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:25.919 of circumstances. They go in with a lot of trauma. 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:29.040 Typically a sexual abuse, especially for women's sexual abuse is 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.560 rampant drug abuse, food apartheid, food deserts. Like, they go 0:23:33.600 --> 0:23:35.560 in with these. Then they go into prison and they 0:23:35.560 --> 0:23:38.040 experience these same things in there. I mean, we released 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:42.560 a report actually about a year ago today regarding food 0:23:42.600 --> 0:23:44.480 in prison. Right, The State of Food was the first 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:46.800 national report on the state of food in prison. It 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:49.679 wasn't rocket science, right, turns out it's really bad. But 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.120 what it did do is it really brought to surface 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.200 about like people in prison told us that they were 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:59.480 forced to eat food that said not fit for human consumption. 0:24:00.320 --> 0:24:02.919 So if you lock me in a cage, right, you 0:24:03.000 --> 0:24:05.080 have taken me my dignity, and then you see you 0:24:05.119 --> 0:24:07.520 serve me food that says not fit for human consumption? 0:24:07.680 --> 0:24:09.280 How do you one think I'm going to act while 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:11.280 I'm incarcerated? And then how do you think I'm gonna 0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:12.920 act when I get out? And not only did you 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:14.800 you fed me that though, So when you get out 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.560 and you have hypertension and you have all of these 0:24:17.560 --> 0:24:19.840 diseases that now become issues of the state and the 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.560 county and our community, right, you blame the individual. You're 0:24:23.600 --> 0:24:27.280 like you, you're unhealthy, right, and you're like, hold you. 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.560 I was reared in a community that didn't have healthy food. 0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:31.920 I was placed into ancarsal system that didn't have healthy food, 0:24:31.920 --> 0:24:33.480 and now you want me to get out X amount 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:34.879 of years later and all of a sudden be like 0:24:34.920 --> 0:24:38.800 the pivotal health. How does that happen? I guess that's 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:43.560 not logical sense it. You know, it's like the breakdown 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:49.640 that you provide is so like clear, right, Like it's 0:24:49.680 --> 0:24:54.440 like x times why equal Z, like this is how 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:58.119 this continued, this cycle. And it's like and what you said, 0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.960 I mean, you said so many things, but it's like, 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:05.320 I'm thinking about a system that is created on punishment 0:25:05.920 --> 0:25:10.240 versus rehabilitation. Right. We want to refer to prisons as 0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.440 like these rehabilitation centers, but they're not right. We're actually 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:18.560 not trying to heal or fix what's broken. This system 0:25:18.840 --> 0:25:22.440 is set up to have punishment, to make things so 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.679 bad that then what you decide, Oh, I'm never going 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:27.560 to commit a crime again because I don't want to 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.600 go back there. But we're not creating a system and 0:25:30.680 --> 0:25:35.400 an environment that is a building whole people and then 0:25:35.440 --> 0:25:39.560 putting them back into environments that they can actually thrive in. 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:43.600 Like the goal is not to have thriving human beings. 0:25:43.600 --> 0:25:46.000 I mean, and I could say the same thing about 0:25:46.040 --> 0:25:49.360 you know, our education system, which I have railed against 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:51.480 for so many years as well. You want to talk 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.160 about food, right, it was one of the reasons why 0:25:54.240 --> 0:25:57.040 Michelle Obama is like, let's get out, you know, let's 0:25:57.080 --> 0:26:00.359 go outside, let's do all these things. Let's change what 0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:04.120 we are feeding children, because we're allowing corporations to put 0:26:04.160 --> 0:26:07.119 pink slime into the meat and say that it's okay 0:26:07.119 --> 0:26:09.679 that only fifty percent of the meat is what is 0:26:09.720 --> 0:26:12.840 actual meat, and then we expect kids to learn. So 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:16.880 it's like you take people that have come from violent situations, 0:26:16.920 --> 0:26:21.200 you put them into a hellish more violent situation and 0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:25.600 then feed them bullshit and then turn around and expect 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:28.520 them not to go back and to commit more violence 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:32.040 acting out what it was that was committed to them. 0:26:33.880 --> 0:26:39.439 It's I feel crazy having just said that I should do, Like, 0:26:39.640 --> 0:26:44.320 in all honesty, how do you if we were which 0:26:44.400 --> 0:26:48.520 is your job to innovate and to create a legal 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:53.800 system that was human focused? What does that look like? 0:26:54.200 --> 0:26:56.640 And what is it like? What what does it look 0:26:56.680 --> 0:27:01.760 like to have a human carcerols system? We're regardless of 0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:08.040 if you've committed crimes, are not, we recognize your humanity. Yeah, 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:10.640 so I'm gonna. I'm gonna. One of the things you said, 0:27:10.640 --> 0:27:12.719 I think is really important is the way we talk 0:27:12.800 --> 0:27:15.600 about the job. The legal system is around this idea 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:20.000 of punishment and accountability, right, right, and and people confuse 0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:22.439 these things all the time. Right. People have confused the 0:27:22.480 --> 0:27:25.399 idea that prison means accountability, which which I which I 0:27:25.440 --> 0:27:27.880 often say is how does that work? Like you can 0:27:28.040 --> 0:27:30.840 commit murder, go to prison for fifty years and still 0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:32.800 be okay with that crime you just create committed. That 0:27:32.800 --> 0:27:35.040 doesn't mean you're accountable for it. It just means that 0:27:35.080 --> 0:27:36.680 you threw them in a system like that. That means 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:38.920 nothing like when you're you know, I have a little niece. 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:41.359 When my niece lies, you's a love it. When she 0:27:41.480 --> 0:27:43.800 lies and she's in trouble for that, she's probably gonna 0:27:43.800 --> 0:27:46.640 lie again because if I'm her aunt, So I don't 0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:48.840 do that much. I don't do my punishment. I do 0:27:48.920 --> 0:27:55.439 a lot of like that was not nice, right, And 0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.560 because of that, right oftentimes she was a similar thing 0:27:58.600 --> 0:28:00.800 because she wasn't accountable. I was like, you could do that. 0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:02.880 I took your toy, right, And so I think there's 0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:06.119 this this this confusion around punishment and accountability. There is 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:09.000 no data to support that if I punish people harm, 0:28:09.119 --> 0:28:11.840 then they won't do a crime. There's quite a bit 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:14.600 of dame, but that actually exists that actually incarceration is 0:28:14.600 --> 0:28:18.040 not a deterrent for from crime. Right, And I don't 0:28:18.040 --> 0:28:19.680 even the quote you data on it because you can 0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:23.200 see it. Right, if prison was a deterrent, if jail 0:28:23.320 --> 0:28:25.840 was a deterrent. We probably wouldn't see rising crime levels 0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:28.720 right now, but we did, right, and that is because 0:28:29.000 --> 0:28:31.840 our communities are not set up to support people that 0:28:31.880 --> 0:28:34.520 are too, that support people that are engaging in prime 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:37.160 right period. Like, well, there's a there's a conversation around 0:28:37.200 --> 0:28:39.520 survival crimes, right, and that's around people that are literally 0:28:39.560 --> 0:28:43.080 surviving and oftentimes they're committing crimes for that survival. Right. 0:28:43.120 --> 0:28:45.080 So I think there's like a bigger conversation that has 0:28:45.120 --> 0:28:47.440 to be had around like what is our goal? You 0:28:47.440 --> 0:28:49.600 know at id Impact, Jess that we talk a lot 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:53.760 about um around prosecut about prosecution, right, like who's and 0:28:53.840 --> 0:28:56.440 there's a there's a bigger conversation that's been happening in 0:28:56.200 --> 0:28:59.880 in the prosecution world around um there and just prosecution 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:04.320 and more and deeper conversations. And that's because right, there's 0:29:04.400 --> 0:29:08.120 a lot of subjectivity that happens between judges and prosecutors, right, 0:29:08.360 --> 0:29:11.760 and oftentimes because like the wind from prosecutors is like, oh, 0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:13.680 we got them locked up for years, you know, that 0:29:13.760 --> 0:29:17.120 was the win, right, But now there's deeper conversations around Okay, 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:19.840 so who's to say that five years is different than 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.160 three days? Different than six months, Like who provides that data? 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.480 Who's to say that? So how are we actually saying 0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:28.280 people are accountable for their behavior? Which just gets me 0:29:28.320 --> 0:29:30.320 to this conversation that we do a lot about work 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:33.960 as our restorative justice aversion team, and that is really 0:29:33.960 --> 0:29:35.560 the way in which we think about how do we 0:29:35.600 --> 0:29:38.720 actually have a different conversation on punishment and accountability? Right 0:29:38.880 --> 0:29:42.200 If my desire for you is you have committed harm 0:29:42.480 --> 0:29:45.440 against a person or a community, but my desire is 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:48.320 for you is to one understand the implications of your harm, 0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:51.200 to be accountable for your harm, and work on a 0:29:51.280 --> 0:29:53.320 method and a tract process that will keep you from 0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:55.520 doing that again, and that you can teach other people 0:29:55.520 --> 0:29:57.680 in your community why that is not okay. At the 0:29:57.720 --> 0:30:00.280 same time, another part of this is how do we 0:30:00.280 --> 0:30:02.680 provide the resources for you to ensure that why you 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:06.520 committed the crime or why what happened in your community 0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:09.160 that allowed for this to happen is also being mitigated 0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:12.000 on this side, right, And so that's aware. You know, 0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:13.959 people always say impact justice, we do a whole lot 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:16.080 of stuff, and we do, and part of that is 0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:19.160 because we see this as a continuum, Right, It's not 0:30:19.280 --> 0:30:22.560 just about conditions of confinement. It's not just about diversion, 0:30:22.800 --> 0:30:25.400 it's about all of it. It's about reentry, it's about policy, 0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:26.920 it's about all of these things that really go to 0:30:27.000 --> 0:30:29.160 change a system. And so you know, to get to 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:31.840 your ultimate question, which is around like what could the 0:30:31.920 --> 0:30:33.880 system be like do we just like throw it out? 0:30:33.880 --> 0:30:35.720 If we just throw it away and start again all 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:38.000 these things? Right? Like, clearly if I was like, let's 0:30:38.040 --> 0:30:40.120 throw it away, that would like, would love to do that. 0:30:40.320 --> 0:30:43.040 The only issue with that, right is I happen to 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:46.280 not be the status quo, and I happen to not 0:30:46.360 --> 0:30:48.400 be look like. I happen to not look like the 0:30:48.440 --> 0:30:50.440 people that decision to make because in many of my colleagues, 0:30:50.480 --> 0:30:52.760 not just that impact justice, but across this nation that 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:55.320 do this amazing work don't always look like often are 0:30:55.360 --> 0:30:57.240 not the people that are called the pot to change systems. 0:30:57.400 --> 0:30:59.120 And so if I say throw it away, right, there's 0:30:59.160 --> 0:31:01.480 a fear, right, there's that real fear around like, but 0:31:01.520 --> 0:31:03.520 who gets to make law? Like we look at Congress 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:05.840 right now, I don't want Mitch McConnell making not a 0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:09.480 single new law, come on me, right, So you know, 0:31:09.520 --> 0:31:11.400 and so you have to even I mean not even 0:31:11.440 --> 0:31:13.920 does that. We deal with moderates, we deal with liberals 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.360 who still don't even understand what we're talking about, right, 0:31:16.840 --> 0:31:19.520 And so I think what is true is that there 0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:22.840 has to be a concerted effort to both understand who 0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:26.840 we are talking about, what the actual systematic issues are 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.320 that led to where we are today, and then how 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:32.080 do we start to have actual processes that change that. 0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:34.160 The way you do that is one A huge piece 0:31:34.200 --> 0:31:36.360 of that is research, And honestly, some of the reasons 0:31:36.360 --> 0:31:38.920 why we actually get to have these conversations now are 0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:41.920 because researchers got in there and said, here are the 0:31:42.000 --> 0:31:45.360 numbers that you're hiding or lying about. Here are the people, right, 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:48.840 here's a face with that number, and it just so happens, 0:31:48.840 --> 0:31:51.520 and all those faces look real similar, right, All them 0:31:51.560 --> 0:31:55.000 faces turn out look real brown, All those faces turn 0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:57.120 out look really you know. And so when you start 0:31:57.120 --> 0:31:58.880 to pull data out, then once we have a data 0:31:58.920 --> 0:32:00.680 and we could say, like, this is what this looks like, 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:02.640 we could say here and you know, we can bring 0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:05.160 it out. This is why people are incarcerated, this is 0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:06.959 where they came from, this is who they are. Then 0:32:07.000 --> 0:32:08.760 we can go to chip away at them right. And 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:10.680 so some of the programs that we do right, like 0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:13.720 one of our programs called the California Justice Leader's Project, 0:32:13.760 --> 0:32:16.560 which is a project in which we it's an amercor 0:32:16.640 --> 0:32:19.320 project that we hire formally incarcerated young people and they 0:32:19.320 --> 0:32:22.160 operate as navigators to young people that are currently in 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:24.440 the system and we'll be leaving within the next six months. 0:32:24.600 --> 0:32:26.680 And so it's called the credible messenger model. So like 0:32:26.720 --> 0:32:29.360 the person that experienced it is the most credible person 0:32:29.560 --> 0:32:31.960 to actually walk somebody through that process. And the reason 0:32:32.000 --> 0:32:34.280 we have that model right is because again, like what 0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:36.720 I can say or somebody else can say that wasn't 0:32:36.760 --> 0:32:39.080 incarcerated as a young person is very different than a 0:32:39.080 --> 0:32:42.440 person that's incarcerated. And so, and because we've talked about 0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:44.680 how important re entry is, right, we have them walk 0:32:44.720 --> 0:32:46.160 them through the path. What are the things you need? 0:32:46.160 --> 0:32:47.320 How am I going to how are you going to 0:32:47.360 --> 0:32:49.680 be set up to change, to change your friend groups? 0:32:49.840 --> 0:32:51.560 What are youse that you need to go back to school? 0:32:51.600 --> 0:32:52.840 What are these things? They start to help them walk 0:32:52.840 --> 0:32:55.040 through that process. But one of those things that the 0:32:55.200 --> 0:32:57.760 reason I'm bringing that up is because that's something that 0:32:57.800 --> 0:33:01.360 will change the outcomes for young people, right, because not 0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:03.560 only for the you know, our actual we call our 0:33:03.600 --> 0:33:06.160 members are actual caliform justice leaders. They were incarsepod at 0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:08.200 some point in their life. Through our program, we have 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:11.320 now given them a job. We are now giving job skills. 0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:14.040 We are giving them mentors, we are giving them the 0:33:14.120 --> 0:33:17.240 ability to give back, we are giving them resume builders, 0:33:17.240 --> 0:33:19.240 and we are giving them connection to an entire network 0:33:19.240 --> 0:33:21.600 of people that they didn't have before. That is a 0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:24.360 key component of how we keep them out of the system, right, 0:33:24.400 --> 0:33:26.360 because now they have something to work with their Like, 0:33:26.440 --> 0:33:28.200 I have a resume, I know I can do this job. 0:33:28.280 --> 0:33:30.360 I actually know I can do something differently, Which is 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:33.080 a huge part of this conversation is knowing you can 0:33:33.120 --> 0:33:36.960 be different, knowing you can choose differently, and that once 0:33:37.000 --> 0:33:39.520 people know that, right, that goes back to like psychology 0:33:39.560 --> 0:33:42.640 one on one, right, Like, once you know and understand 0:33:42.640 --> 0:33:44.719 there can be a different path for you, it's up 0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:46.760 to us, right, us as in the people that do 0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.720 this work, but our policymakers, our advocates, our corporate America 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:53.400 that's giving money out all these people to actually provide 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:56.280 processes to do something different. So when I think about 0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:58.080 what a system could and should look like I think 0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:02.280 about a system that's really built on he and accountability. Yes, right, 0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:05.240 because we don't get to healing, we get to nothing. 0:34:05.840 --> 0:34:09.279 Right if we don't talk about what's happening internally with 0:34:09.320 --> 0:34:11.480 your body, with your mind, why you didn't we still 0:34:11.520 --> 0:34:13.560 have nothing at the end of the day. Like one 0:34:13.560 --> 0:34:15.520 of the projects we're doing, I'm jumping around, but one 0:34:15.520 --> 0:34:17.160 of the projects we're doing on our research team is 0:34:17.160 --> 0:34:20.839 called is Men and Trauma. And that is because right 0:34:20.880 --> 0:34:23.360 there is a conversation that have a little more broadly 0:34:23.360 --> 0:34:25.960 around trauma, articulated and sexual assault for women, but we 0:34:25.960 --> 0:34:27.920 don't often talk about people that are incarce men that 0:34:27.960 --> 0:34:30.759 are incarcerated and the trauma that they experience which led 0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:33.880 to both their actions and outcomes. And so this project 0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:36.160 is really around, right, if we could understand the trauma, 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:38.040 then we could actually adhere to the healing of it. 0:34:38.160 --> 0:34:39.640 We could adhere to the healing of it it. But we 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:41.640 can get to the accountability piece of it. We get 0:34:41.680 --> 0:34:43.800 to the accountability piece of it, we can create processes 0:34:43.800 --> 0:34:46.640 that keep people from committing these crimes in the first place. 0:34:46.680 --> 0:34:49.440 But also going forward, I've talked a lot. I'll stop, 0:34:50.080 --> 0:34:54.759 you know, you know, I love this so much and 0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:56.799 I love the work that you all are doing so 0:34:56.920 --> 0:35:03.600 much because the fact is that we are broken, and 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:09.600 we are morally bankrupt and broken society. And the fact 0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:13.000 is that we can clearly look at people from very 0:35:13.040 --> 0:35:16.359 young ages based on their zip codes and say you're 0:35:16.400 --> 0:35:19.480 worthy and you are not. And when you decide to 0:35:19.520 --> 0:35:24.200 center people's humanity and center their healing, right, then you 0:35:24.239 --> 0:35:28.759 can build programs and systems that are about creating a 0:35:28.800 --> 0:35:34.000 supportive ecosystem around them. Because what I mean when you 0:35:34.200 --> 0:35:39.000 mentioned you know a little bit back about survival crimes, right, 0:35:39.080 --> 0:35:41.720 and the way in which we view like, wait, why 0:35:41.880 --> 0:35:45.120 is somebody in a position where they are breaking the law. 0:35:46.200 --> 0:35:48.360 Of course people that want to break the law because 0:35:48.440 --> 0:35:50.560 they want to break the law, there are other people 0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:53.320 that are like we are faced with no other choice. 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:56.600 There is no other option. It's either I do this 0:35:56.840 --> 0:35:59.600 or my family doesn't eat. Either I do this or 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:03.160 I'm sleeping you know, under a bridge, right, Like, there 0:36:03.200 --> 0:36:07.960 are things, there are situations that are created, right that 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:10.960 for some people when especially when you just said knowing 0:36:11.000 --> 0:36:13.600 that you can be different, knowing that there are other 0:36:13.880 --> 0:36:17.640 choices that you can make. But when we are living 0:36:17.640 --> 0:36:21.759 in a society that doesn't create and imagine choices for 0:36:21.800 --> 0:36:26.560 people and doesn't want other certain communities to have choices. 0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:29.399 This is where we end up. And I think that 0:36:29.480 --> 0:36:32.920 you know, to the point that you made about earlier 0:36:33.400 --> 0:36:36.680 about we just we don't want to see things, right, 0:36:36.920 --> 0:36:39.120 We actually don't want to see things just like we 0:36:39.160 --> 0:36:41.600 don't want to see the crumbling of our current democracy. 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:44.399 We just we want things to just run like well 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:48.040 oiled machines so that I can put my attention elsewhere. 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:51.720 And the reality is is that we are paying more 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.840 money in the taxes that come out of all of 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:58.080 our hard earning right to support a prison industrial system 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:02.120 that then turns around and does us harm right? Like 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:05.399 does us who has never been in the system harm right? 0:37:05.719 --> 0:37:08.440 And so I just you know, to me, it's like 0:37:08.560 --> 0:37:11.640 every single problem that I talk about on this show 0:37:12.200 --> 0:37:18.320 comes back to humanizing people, comes back to just recognizing 0:37:18.640 --> 0:37:22.240 that people are worthy, right, and that no one person 0:37:22.280 --> 0:37:25.759 should have the opportunity or the power to be able 0:37:25.840 --> 0:37:29.279 to dictate somebody else's humanity and that, you know, and 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:32.840 to me, that that is what comes out about the center, 0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:36.719 like the foundation of the work that you all are 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:40.640 doing an impact justice. The last question that I have 0:37:40.800 --> 0:37:44.960 for you is do you feel this as a question 0:37:45.040 --> 0:37:47.800 that I ask a ton of people because I'm probably 0:37:47.840 --> 0:37:51.120 one of the biggest cynics in the world. M but 0:37:51.239 --> 0:37:58.040 do you feel I should do like hopefulness in the 0:37:58.080 --> 0:38:01.920 fact that more people's eyes are open to just how 0:38:02.160 --> 0:38:06.440 unjust the legal system is that because of these high 0:38:06.480 --> 0:38:11.080 profile cases that have been followed and people are clearly 0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:15.560 seeing now like, wow, there's a real stark difference between 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:19.879 how Kyle Rittenhouse was talked about versus Trayvon Martin, who 0:38:19.920 --> 0:38:23.480 was an actual victim, right, Like, do you do you 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:29.880 feel helpful? Yeah? So, I think one of the important 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:33.040 things that you said that I just want to address 0:38:33.160 --> 0:38:36.280 partially is you know, are there people in the world 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:38.960 that just commit crimes? Yes, that have mental health challenge 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:42.640 that commit crimes. Yes. Most people that commit crimes are 0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.319 doing so on a broad scale of survival crimes, right, 0:38:46.400 --> 0:38:49.640 Like even if like when you're thinking about like the community, 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:52.279 there are actual tangible commitst survival crimes, right, like I 0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:54.200 robbed the stores, I need to put the campers on 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:56.960 my baby. Happens all the time. Right. There's also I 0:38:57.000 --> 0:38:59.479 think a deeper conversation that has to be had around 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:04.479 the community that are raising, the communities in which people 0:39:04.480 --> 0:39:07.520 are forced to raise young people in that are that 0:39:07.760 --> 0:39:11.480 are such at a lack of resources, that crime is 0:39:11.520 --> 0:39:14.080 actually a way of life, that crime is actually an 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:19.160 economic mobility. Right. We've created these communities because of racism, 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:23.399 because of classism, and so it's not necessarily just they 0:39:23.440 --> 0:39:26.360 want to commit crimes. It's that they're raising communities that 0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:28.920 are victims of what the society has created, and they 0:39:28.960 --> 0:39:32.280 act out what society created, right, And so it's so 0:39:32.320 --> 0:39:34.560 I say that because that's much broader than just like 0:39:34.560 --> 0:39:36.560 they woke up one day and wanted to like, you know, 0:39:36.840 --> 0:39:39.200 bash a card. It's like bigger than that, right, It's 0:39:39.200 --> 0:39:42.040 like that's what they understand as a method for them 0:39:42.040 --> 0:39:44.600 to get stuff. That's what they understand as a method 0:39:44.640 --> 0:39:46.600 for them to have some type of economic change or 0:39:46.640 --> 0:39:48.600 to be a part of the community that is that 0:39:48.800 --> 0:39:51.160 has so much crime in it that that is what 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:53.719 they're taught and they understand. So I just want to 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:55.880 make like an in just like a distinction kind of 0:39:55.960 --> 0:39:59.080 kind of around that um and then all the things 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.000 that you said, yes, I you know, like I like, 0:40:01.200 --> 0:40:03.200 you know, Like, you know, you know what's interesting because 0:40:03.239 --> 0:40:05.319 what I think of these written House case people are 0:40:05.320 --> 0:40:07.919 like really upset. I wasn't that upset, right, And that's 0:40:07.960 --> 0:40:11.160 because like written House is like a white blob to me, Right, 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:12.880 it could have been written House, It could have been 0:40:12.920 --> 0:40:15.520 like any other white blob that existed on a chair, Right, 0:40:15.520 --> 0:40:19.000 it didn't really matter. And I think what's great is 0:40:19.040 --> 0:40:21.799 that because it was so public, people care differently. Right. 0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:24.240 But I see this every day, right, Like I see 0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:29.480 black and brown bodies that are that have experienced so 0:40:29.560 --> 0:40:32.799 much harm, right, and then are put on trial for 0:40:32.880 --> 0:40:35.920 a crime that they committed and are looked upon as 0:40:36.080 --> 0:40:39.400 animals and are not asked, are not even asked questions 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:42.480 in court about who they are as humans, right, you 0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:44.880 know Written House, Like the conversation on him going too 0:40:44.880 --> 0:40:47.560 asu came up, all these things that humanized him, right, 0:40:47.680 --> 0:40:49.960 Like that humanized who he was came up both in 0:40:50.000 --> 0:40:53.040 the media and assol the court. Right when you watched 0:40:53.200 --> 0:40:57.200 the gymnastics that had to be played for hint for 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:00.440 to jumping over, like when you watched gym Nasa that 0:41:00.520 --> 0:41:02.560 had you played on the amar Rbury case, right when 0:41:02.560 --> 0:41:04.920 you had to watch what happened for that case to 0:41:05.000 --> 0:41:07.000 have the verticot did you didn't see that same thing 0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:09.040 on the Rittenhouse case, right, because the person that was 0:41:09.080 --> 0:41:10.920 over trying to you know that that, like you had, 0:41:11.000 --> 0:41:14.279 like literally what was happening was a circus in a 0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:16.960 lot of ways, because that is what our criminal legal 0:41:17.000 --> 0:41:20.160 system has become in some ways, because that's built on subjectivity. Right. 0:41:20.200 --> 0:41:22.680 There are laws and technicalities and all these things, but 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.839 humans are the ones that are enacting these laws, right, 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:29.200 and so it's all built in subjectivity. And so Rattenhouse right, Right, 0:41:29.520 --> 0:41:31.919 he got off because of a law, right, a law 0:41:31.960 --> 0:41:34.360 that was created and whatever reason it was created, but 0:41:34.400 --> 0:41:36.719 it was got off because of subjectivity, right, because the 0:41:36.800 --> 0:41:39.640 people that were on the jury of that case, the judge, 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.680 the community, all these people saw a different human in 0:41:42.680 --> 0:41:46.000 that chair, saw a pudgy faced, white blob in that chair, 0:41:46.200 --> 0:41:48.480 and they cared differently about him. I mean, there was 0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:52.680 conversation about his future, right, But when there's a black 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:55.440 body in that chair, they don't care that they shouldn't 0:41:55.480 --> 0:41:58.360 commit their crime, right, they chose to get rid of 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:00.480 their future, right, And the conversations you have, and so 0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:01.920 I think when you like and so when I say 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:04.040 like white blab, I'm actually not like talking about like 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.759 the actual appearance. Yes, now I'm not talking about the 0:42:06.840 --> 0:42:09.600 idea of like it doesn't matter film the blank white, 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:12.279 or film the bake, or or even feel you know, 0:42:12.320 --> 0:42:14.520 and race a gender plays a part of that too, 0:42:14.520 --> 0:42:16.880 but film the blank doesn't matter if the outcomes are similar, 0:42:17.160 --> 0:42:20.520 because we're dealing with subjectivity and we're dealing with laws 0:42:20.520 --> 0:42:23.799 and polities, policies that on paper think people talk about 0:42:23.800 --> 0:42:26.680 our gender neutral and race neutral button and actuality because 0:42:26.719 --> 0:42:30.120 humans are enacting them. They become you know, they become 0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:32.480 enacted by the ideas of racism and you see a 0:42:32.480 --> 0:42:34.080 play out, you know. And so that's to your question, 0:42:34.160 --> 0:42:35.759 like on my athenic, no, I there is you know, 0:42:35.840 --> 0:42:39.879 I am a I'm not that cynical in a lot 0:42:39.920 --> 0:42:42.279 of ways, and you can't be some in some ways 0:42:42.280 --> 0:42:44.400 in the work that I do, right because if I 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:47.320 because I would, I would I would die right because 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:51.000 I would be so burdened down by what I see 0:42:51.160 --> 0:42:53.359 every day and the humans I speak to. And so 0:42:53.640 --> 0:42:56.440 whether it's reality or not reality, my response to you is, yes, 0:42:56.480 --> 0:42:58.200 there is hope. And I say that because I've been 0:42:58.239 --> 0:43:00.560 you know, I'm like older, but I'm not like super old, 0:43:00.680 --> 0:43:02.600 like you know, I'm the millennial to put that way. 0:43:02.880 --> 0:43:04.080 You know, but I've been doing this work for a 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:07.319 lot of My niece calls me a dusty, so there's 0:43:07.360 --> 0:43:12.800 that she actually she needs to go on punishment. Okay, 0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:16.920 you just about the two thousand girl for Halloween. I 0:43:16.960 --> 0:43:19.200 don't want I don't like her, you know, yeah, like 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:22.200 it was. It was the whole thing. Oh are you 0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:24.759 a dusty as well? There you got your dust I 0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:29.120 don't like I don't like her. She's eleven, So there 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:31.920 you go. But my point though is that, you know, 0:43:32.280 --> 0:43:34.400 is there's but I've seen so much change, even as 0:43:34.480 --> 0:43:37.239 much as I've been in this work, right, Like I see, 0:43:37.480 --> 0:43:39.960 like ban the Box didn't exist what I started doing 0:43:39.960 --> 0:43:41.520 this work, which was like the well just you know 0:43:41.560 --> 0:43:44.600 in California's Destination actually now, which allow people not to 0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:47.480 ask questions around around felonies, right, that didn't exist when 0:43:47.480 --> 0:43:49.880 I started this work. We've seen changed, Right when I 0:43:49.920 --> 0:43:52.840 look at talking about sexual violence in prisons, like impact 0:43:52.880 --> 0:43:55.920 Justice runs that when I started doing just work that 0:43:55.960 --> 0:43:58.560 didn't exist. People weren't talking in a way that could 0:43:58.640 --> 0:44:01.520 change sexual violence side of Carcelo facilities and that the 0:44:01.600 --> 0:44:03.680 federal government was going to pay for that, like that 0:44:03.719 --> 0:44:08.600 didn't exist before that, Like conversations on black women being 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:12.960 incarcerated and criminalized that didn't exist, right, talking about the 0:44:13.000 --> 0:44:15.640 school can find pathways for black young people and girls 0:44:15.719 --> 0:44:18.200 that didn't exist prior, you know, when I first started 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:21.319 doing this work. And so is there like mountains and 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:26.239 valleys and rivers and oceans to crime clots and swam across. Absolutely, 0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:30.000 But you can see change that's happening from both the federal, state, 0:44:30.000 --> 0:44:33.239 and local level. But that's only happening because people have 0:44:33.520 --> 0:44:37.880 continued to scream, continue to knock down doors, and continue 0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:40.719 to talk about what's right and what should happen right, 0:44:40.719 --> 0:44:43.000 And I think and I don't see that changing. And 0:44:43.040 --> 0:44:46.759 I think also because we've had to public display of 0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:51.120 a public display of racist acts, right that people in 0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:53.360 black and brown communities like we like when when the 0:44:53.440 --> 0:44:57.120 ammad armory happened, when George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, we 0:44:57.239 --> 0:45:00.319 like it wasn't like we was really terrifying for us, 0:45:00.640 --> 0:45:03.080 but it was common. Like you know, I think part 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:04.840 of what I can tell you, like my response, like 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.920 ever when Eric Gardner happened. I tapped out. I tapped 0:45:08.920 --> 0:45:10.560 out on that day. That was the day I tapped out, 0:45:11.040 --> 0:45:13.640 and I had an entire dislike ball. I was at 0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.120 my desk at work and I was just crying my 0:45:16.200 --> 0:45:18.279 face off, right because I tapped out at that moment, 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:19.759 And I have these moments that I tapped out. I 0:45:19.760 --> 0:45:22.320 happened during you know, and am mod r Very was 0:45:22.600 --> 0:45:25.399 was murdered. I went on my two point one poo 0:45:25.480 --> 0:45:27.239 point eleven. I believe my I'll run and I cry 0:45:27.239 --> 0:45:29.960 at the entire way, right, And I think that is 0:45:30.000 --> 0:45:32.560 because the folks that do this work have this this 0:45:32.920 --> 0:45:35.000 stuff on their shoulders every day that we carry, and 0:45:35.040 --> 0:45:37.920 we have straight bats and long spines, and then sometimes 0:45:37.920 --> 0:45:40.320 it just gets heavy, and we have to be honest. 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:42.000 We have to be honest about those moments. But we 0:45:42.040 --> 0:45:43.640 also to be honest about the fact that we see 0:45:43.640 --> 0:45:45.759 so much change it's happening. The fact that we get 0:45:45.800 --> 0:45:47.480 the fact that I got to have this conversation with 0:45:47.560 --> 0:45:49.680 you on a podcast that's going to be out to 0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:53.880 millions of people across race talking about the atrocities in 0:45:53.920 --> 0:45:57.239 our justice system is progress within itself, and I'm so 0:45:57.280 --> 0:45:59.600 appreciative to the folks that came before me, to the 0:45:59.600 --> 0:46:02.799 avid gets on the ground and the policymakers that are 0:46:02.800 --> 0:46:04.920 working to change things at every level, because without all 0:46:04.920 --> 0:46:06.600 of those things happening, we wouldn't be where we are, 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:08.520 and we will not get to where we're going without 0:46:08.560 --> 0:46:11.560 people continuing to open up their mouths and speak about 0:46:12.120 --> 0:46:15.160 the dehumanization of black and brown bodies in our justice system. 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:19.400 I should too, use if I really do hope that 0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:22.400 you will come back to wok af. I have enjoyed 0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:25.960 every single minute of this conversation. I think that the 0:46:26.000 --> 0:46:29.080 work that you're doing, that Impact Justice is doing is 0:46:29.120 --> 0:46:33.839 extraordinary and so needed. And you know, and I really 0:46:33.880 --> 0:46:36.320 do appreciate the fact that you said you know and 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:38.880 not on the fact that you know you're not a cynic, 0:46:38.920 --> 0:46:41.080 because you wouldn't be able to do this work if 0:46:41.120 --> 0:46:44.080 you were. And I think that that is important, because 0:46:44.400 --> 0:46:49.040 you know, even those that while they were enslaved in 0:46:49.239 --> 0:46:54.200 shackles still persisted and dreamt of something that was bigger 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:57.600 and different than the experience that they were currently having, 0:46:57.680 --> 0:47:00.319 and if they didn't, none of us would be here. 0:47:00.400 --> 0:47:03.160 And so, you know, to hold on to that hope, 0:47:03.440 --> 0:47:07.920 I think is extraordinarily necessary for us to keep forging ahead, 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:11.399 and so for that I appreciate you. Thank you so 0:47:11.520 --> 0:47:13.720 very much, and I hope that you will join us again, 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:17.000 oh anytime. Please let me know. I really appreciate the 0:47:17.040 --> 0:47:19.840 conversations you bring to the air. I really do, so 0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:27.200 thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you. That 0:47:27.360 --> 0:47:30.240 is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke app 0:47:30.320 --> 0:47:34.240 as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, 0:47:34.440 --> 0:47:36.600 get woke and stay woke as fuck.