1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wika FA Daily with 2 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody recording not So Live from 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: the Brooklyn Silarium. Folks. I'm really excited to bring you 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: this conversation today with the innovation director of an organization 5 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: called Impact Justice. Aisha to Yusuf is a person who 6 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: has been working for the last several years of her career, 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: but since the founding of Impact Justice in twenty fifteen, 8 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: on reimagining what our criminal justice system should and can 9 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: look like. In the conversation, we get into all of 10 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: the ways in which you know, society has honestly been 11 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: built to opt to dehumanize people. Right. There are systems 12 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: right that are at play that force people into make 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: unthinkable choices because they feel like they don't have any 14 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: other choices to make. And what does it mean in 15 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: a society that is supposed to be industrialized, that is 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: supposed to house the land of the free and when 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: we look at how we treat these folks that are incarcerated, right, 18 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: I don't think that because you commit a crime that 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: you should lose your humanity, but that's exactly what has 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: been happening in our criminal justice system ever since its inception. 21 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: You know, I've often said on woke af that the 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: criminal justice system isn't broken. It's working exactly the way 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: that it was intended to work. It is locking up 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: black and brown people. Right. If you watched Ava Durbnay's 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: thirteenth Amendment, you learned all about the ways in which 26 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: this system was created to create another mechanism for forced labor. Right, 27 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: Like we hear stories every summer that there are fires 28 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: in California raging across the state. We learn about the 29 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: fact that they are firefighters who are actually incarcerated, that 30 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: aren't even being paid a dollar a day to literally 31 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: fight deadly fires. But then when those same people get 32 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: out of prison, they wouldn't be able to go and 33 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: get a job as a firefighter, even though that is 34 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: exactly what they were doing while they were in prison. 35 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: So what does it mean that we set up these 36 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:32,040 Speaker 1: systems right that are not about rehabilitation, They are not 37 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: about accountability, but instead they are steeped in punishment. And 38 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,079 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this a lot since the conversation 39 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: I had with Ice too, because the reality is in America, 40 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: we believe deeply in punishment. It's actually one of our foundations. Right, 41 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,639 Speaker 1: If what do you think that the laws right now 42 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 1: that are crumbling all around us with regard to a 43 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,959 Speaker 1: woman's right to an abortion or a person with a 44 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: uterus's right to an abortion, what do you think that 45 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: that is about? That is about punishing women, right for 46 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: having the audacity to want to have autonomy over their bodies. 47 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: Right for being able to say that, you know what, 48 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,360 Speaker 1: we are over fifty percent of the population and we 49 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: get a say on when, where, and if we decide 50 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: to have children. But then you had lawmakers, particularly obviously 51 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: Republican lawmakers, who were putting into practice a couple of 52 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: years ago, transvaginal ultrasounds before women go and get an abortion. Well, 53 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: when you ask the medical doctors, are trans transvaginal ultrasounds necessary, right, 54 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: they told no, there's actually no medical use for that 55 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: before we were to administer an abortion. But the point 56 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: of it was humiliation, The point of it was harm. Right, 57 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: And so when we hear stories ever infrequently, particularly during 58 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: COVID in twenty twenty, I was wondering, when we're talking 59 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: about social distancing and wearing masks, we were looking to 60 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: the looking to the prison system to ramp up the 61 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: production of masks, to ramp up the production of hand 62 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: sanitizer and other metrics of cleanings. And guess what, those 63 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: same prisoners that we're working for no money to produce 64 00:04:30,360 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: and keep the country safe weren't allowed to use the 65 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: hand sanitizer or the masks. But we didn't hear about 66 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 1: massive COVID outbreaks in these facilities because we don't give 67 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: a fuck. Like that's the reality is that in America. 68 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: I recognize that we are a country that really is 69 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: a bunch of fucking ostriches that want to bury our 70 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: heads in the sand. You see. We want to say 71 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: that we lock up the bad people and throwaway the key, 72 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: except we get to pick and choose who is bad 73 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: and who is good, who is worth rehabilitating, and who 74 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: isn't who. When we were listening to the Kyle Rittenhouse 75 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: trial and everybody's talking about that motherfucker's future, I don't 76 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: ever remember hearing anybody talk about what about Trayvon Martin's future, 77 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 1: what about Tamere Rice's future? Right when it's black and 78 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: brown people that are the victims, we don't get to 79 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: have our humanity front and center. And so one of 80 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: the questions that I asked I should too, is how 81 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: is it that you humanize the incarcerated when free black 82 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: and brown people are not able to experience the fullness 83 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: of their humanity because we are being looked at through 84 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: the white gaze and filter. Right, we're out here marching 85 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: and screaming on the top of our lungs that black 86 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: lives matter, because they fucking don't. And so it's you know, 87 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: to be in a job that is about humanizing those 88 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 1: that we choose to see as animals. And what I 89 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:17,159 Speaker 1: find really just frustrating is that we spend more money 90 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: more money keeping people locked up, keeping people in violent 91 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: dysfunction then we do on our education system. Right. One 92 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: of the things that I should too will talk about 93 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: is the food in prisons, right, forcing people to eat 94 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: food that is literally labeled not for human consumption, but 95 00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: because we are telling these people and reinforcing every single day, 96 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: every hour of every day, that they are worthless, what 97 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: do we think is going to happen when they're released, 98 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 1: because then we put them into a situation where not 99 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: only have we finally gotten to a place to ban 100 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: the fucking box so that people can actually re enter society, 101 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 1: but what is it that we think that they are 102 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: re entering society with. It is not a better sense 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: of self. It is not a sense of accountability. It 104 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: is not a sense that I want to be a 105 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: part of this society. It's that I have had pain 106 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: and violence inflicted on me for however many months or years, 107 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: and now I have even more internalized trauma than I'm 108 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: going to act out like. It's not rocket science. Why 109 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: there is such high recidivism rates because we don't create 110 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: a system that views everyone equally, that says that people 111 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: are worthy just by virtue of being fucking human. We 112 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: spend so much energy trying to change systems that are 113 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: working exactly the way that they should. But one of 114 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:55,080 Speaker 1: the things that I should too, will say as well, 115 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: is that you know she is not cynical. Is that 116 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: she cannot afford cynicism in this job because she wouldn't 117 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: be able to do it. And it got me to thinking, right, 118 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: because I refer to myself as a cynic I say 119 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: that I'm probably one of the most hopeless people. And 120 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: somebody had said to me the other day too, They're like, Danielle, 121 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: you're not because if you were, you wouldn't do this 122 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: show if you were, you wouldn't get so enraged every 123 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: single day. You get enraged and frustrated, right, and you're 124 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: filled with this type of passion because you want to 125 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: see better. You want people to be better, and you 126 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: believe that they can if given enough information. And one 127 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: of the things that she says is the same that 128 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: we have to believe that we can be better. We 129 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: have to believe that we can do better, because if 130 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: we think that this is it right, that this is 131 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: as good as it gets, then we are fucking future generations. 132 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that I will end 133 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: on in our interview is this, Those that were formerly 134 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: enslaved right believed in a better day. They prayed for 135 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: a better day. They fought for a better day. They 136 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: fought for a freedom that many of them knew that 137 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: they would never see, that they would never experience, but 138 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: they did so anyway. And that is something that I 139 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: need to remind myself of on a daily basis. And 140 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: I want to remind all of you that, yes, the 141 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: times that we are totally living in right now, absolutely 142 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: and one hundred percent feel eternally fucked, and it may 143 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: be for quite some time, but just because we may 144 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: not experience. Right, the equity that we are fighting for 145 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: each and every day doesn't mean that it is not 146 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: worth fighting for. And that is the reminder that I 147 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: got in my interview coming up next with Isshatu Yusef 148 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: of Impact Justice Folks. I am very happy to well 149 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: come to wok F for the very first time, hopefully 150 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: not the last time. I should too. Yusef, who is 151 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: the director of Innovative Programs at Impact Justice and Impact 152 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: Justice Folks, is a national innovation and research center advancing 153 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: new ideas and solutions for justice reform, which, as we 154 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: talk about on wok F, is desperately needed. I should too. 155 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining and you know, this 156 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: must be a really precarious time to be in the 157 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,839 Speaker 1: work of justice reform and kind of reimagining what an 158 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: actual justice system would look like. Can you talk to us, 159 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,680 Speaker 1: just give us a better picture of Impact Justice and 160 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: the work that you all have been doing since the 161 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: inception in twenty fifteen. Yeah, so I'm super excited to 162 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: be here as well. I'm clearly a fan and I 163 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: didn't think I did a chance to do this. I'm 164 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,480 Speaker 1: super excited to speak with you. Yeah, so should tun 165 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: The director of Innovation Programs. And you know what's interesting, 166 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: I've we've gotten a lot of asks around what's it 167 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: like to be in the justice system now that everyone's 168 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,599 Speaker 1: talking about it, you know, and what I think is 169 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: really interesting and not that much has changed for us, 170 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: aside the fact that people want to actually listen to 171 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: us sometimes now right the you know, you know, I 172 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: think that you know what's real is that you know 173 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: I've been I've been in back to most of my career. 174 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: I've been in justice work. UM. And the folks that 175 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: are really in the trenches, both on the advocacy research side, 176 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: have been in doing this work for a long time, 177 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: a lot of it silently or a lot of it 178 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: like beating downdoors. And so I think what has changed 179 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: the last few years is that people actually well, people 180 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: that have like a moral compass, that want to actually 181 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: talk about it and are more are more interested in 182 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: hearing about what it is we've been screaming about for 183 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: a really long time. UM. And so Impact Justice has 184 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,079 Speaker 1: been around for six years. Although we have every most 185 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: people in that organization, I've been doing this work for 186 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: a really long time. UM. We are a research and 187 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: innovation organization right. Research is what we say a proxy 188 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: for knowledge and innovation is really about risk and imagination 189 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: and possibility, and because we work in such an antiquated system, 190 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 1: both of those things are highly necessary. What's unfortunate is 191 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: at our risk and possibility because the way the system 192 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: is set up is around people, right. But at the 193 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: same time, we have to able to think differently about 194 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:16,120 Speaker 1: how do we really impact the justice system and impact justice. 195 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: We think about that and kind of four distinct ways, 196 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: which is diversion, which means how do we keep people 197 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: out of the system. There's a huge conversation that's been 198 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: happening nationally around the reduction of mass incarceration. That is 199 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: actually a bipartisan conversation in a lot of ways. But 200 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: the way we really hit to mass incarceration is like 201 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: keeping people out from the very beginning. We do that 202 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,080 Speaker 1: by diversion a lot of our storave justice practices things 203 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: like that. The second piece we think about is what 204 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: the term is called conditions of confinement. I hate the term, 205 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 1: but that's the term folks use, and that's really thinking 206 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: about what's happening to people, why they are inside. What 207 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:49,719 Speaker 1: is unfortunate is now oftentimes in our system, we lock 208 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: the key and throw it away and throw them inside, 209 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: and they're like, they're in there. Ye, what's real is 210 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: that they are humans. They are people, and they will 211 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: get out. Right. Ninety eight percent of people that are 212 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: incarcerated get out. So if we don't providing both dignity, 213 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,560 Speaker 1: respect and care for them while they're in there, the 214 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: person that comes out is probably not the person you 215 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: want to wear neighborood because you tortured them and cause 216 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: intense trauma. So a lot of the work we do 217 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: is around conditions of confinement, have sexual as salt, the 218 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: food that they eat, things like that. The third piece 219 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: we do is abound re entry, which is right the 220 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: folks that ninety eight percent of folks that go in 221 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 1: will come out. So one of the work, kind of 222 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: the two pillars that we really focus on, is really 223 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: around how do you provide the necessary resources to provide 224 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 1: people with the things that they need upon reentry, housing, 225 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: a job, navigation, and that's both juvenile and adult because 226 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: both those folks in the folks coming out, we want 227 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: to adhere to that. And then all of that, as 228 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: we said, I said, was rooted in research, which is 229 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: a proxy for knowledge. Everything we do is not just 230 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 1: evidence based practice, but also we use participatory research, which 231 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: means we actually talk to the people that are that 232 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: we're talking about that word, pack those system to actually 233 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: help build our programs out to make mehia adhere to 234 00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: what it is their needs are so i AD impact justice. 235 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: We do all that. We've done that for the last 236 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: six years. Most of us have done that for mucho longer. 237 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: But you know, the truth is is given the kind 238 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: of rise and even from you know, George Floyd and 239 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 1: Brianna's hair and all of those things, you know what 240 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: ended up happening was the stuff that we did every 241 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: single day, people wanted to hear about more. And that 242 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: was in a lot of ways great, right, because people 243 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: were interested in hearing about the atrocities that are happening 244 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: to particularly black communities, particularly Native communities and brown communities, right, 245 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: and so it just gave rise to people actually wanted 246 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to listen to what we want to say. It doesn't 247 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: mean that the people actually heard it differently. Doesn't also 248 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: mean that. It also doesn't mean that, like you know, 249 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 1: more dollars came to support organizations like ours in some 250 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: cases but not always and it doesn't mean that we 251 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, that we have easier time changing policies and 252 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: laws because their policies and laws. But what it does 253 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: mean is that we get to have the voice of 254 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: the people that are impacted a little bit louder. And 255 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: it also did mean that more people were alerted to 256 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: the issues that impact around in black and poor communities, 257 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: which I think is the biggest difference. What I saw 258 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: almost instantly were people that work in completely different field, 259 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: who don't have to do, who don't well, they don't 260 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: know they do, but often don't know that they know 261 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 1: someone's been incarcerated. I don't live in poor communities, right, 262 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: being like, wait, what's going on? You know? Tell me 263 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: about that, you know? And so I think that process 264 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: and that outcome is a good outcome, a terrible reason 265 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: to have that outcome, that it was a good outcome 266 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: that we got to bring people into the conversation that 267 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 1: didn't care before and didn't know to care. You know, 268 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: I want to talk about you know, thank you so 269 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: much for giving that rundown because I think that it's 270 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: it's it's really exciting work that you are doing. Because 271 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: I don't oftentimes think that we have an opportunity to 272 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: really truly reimagine. Right, it's just kind of, you know, 273 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: it is. It is the status quo, so we'll just 274 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 1: kind of stick with what is and not imagine that 275 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: there could be something that is different. The part that 276 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: sticks out for me is the condition of confinement. And 277 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: the reason why that sticks out for me is because, 278 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: first of all, I mean, I don't need to go 279 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: into the history of how black and brown people are 280 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: looked at in this country in general. Right. It is 281 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, the opportunity has always been lock them up, 282 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: throw away the key, force labor, you know, force birth, whatever, 283 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: whatever it is, it is, it has the fight has 284 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: always been about the humanization of black people, right. And 285 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: so when you think about who is actually incarcerated in 286 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: mass it is black and brown men, right, and on 287 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:46,400 Speaker 1: the rise is women as well, And it's hard. The 288 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: question that I have for you is how is it 289 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: that you how do you work to humanize those that 290 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: are incarcerated when we are having such a goddamn problem 291 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: with trying to humanize those of us that are outside 292 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: of bars, right. And so it's so to me, it's 293 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: like you can justify the animalistic treatment because you believe 294 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 1: those people to be animals from the jump, right, And 295 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: so it's like, how how do you how do you 296 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,560 Speaker 1: do that work? How do you go about um doing 297 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: that work and having people understand that to your point, 298 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: ninety eight percent of people who are incarcerated will in 299 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 1: fact be released. What are they being released as? Right? Yeah? 300 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: Um uh. That questions pack with a lot of stuff. 301 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna talk for a whole I'm gonna forgive me, 302 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna give you a chump go. 303 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: What I think is what I think is important to 304 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: be at the end of your statement, which was around like, right, 305 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: when you animalize people and you it's easier to it's 306 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: easier to do that, you know. It's it's not just 307 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: the fact that we've decided that black and brown and 308 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: poor people are animals. It's that we don't know them, 309 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: we don't care to know them, and then we literally 310 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: pick them make them invisible. Right, That's why erration does right. 311 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: And it's been and it's been and it's done from 312 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: the beginning of time. I actually was listening to one 313 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: of your UM sessions that you did a couple of 314 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 1: days ago that actually you said in there um right, like, 315 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 1: let's get back to what they Let's get back to 316 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: what the justice system was supposed to do, right, But 317 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: the truth there is no that. But it's doing what 318 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: it's supposed to do. It's the right ways meant right, right, 319 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: it was always meant to isolate individuals and prior to 320 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: like I mean, you know, like incarceration in some ways 321 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: have been around for a really long time. Right before 322 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:32,479 Speaker 1: the enslavement happened, they were like isolated white people, right, 323 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: That's what they were doing, right. It's just that when 324 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: enslavement happened, a colonization happened, that you became poor people, 325 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: which were black people, and filling the blank all that, 326 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 1: and so what I think is important to just differentiate 327 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: in there is that it's not just that we see 328 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: people that have committed crimes or poor people or black 329 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: people as animals or as not human, but that we 330 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: don't want that, but that society doesn't want to see 331 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: them unless you unless they're seen and the gaze of whiteness. 332 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: And they also put them but the reason is like 333 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: a system of of isolation exists. It's because they don't 334 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: even they throw them away. They're like you didn't meet 335 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 1: the society standard. I actually don't want to see or 336 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: you don't exist to me, and that makes it easy, 337 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: right that when that makes it easy to think about 338 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 1: people as bad because I don't have to see and 339 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: I don't know them, but I'm gonna go down. That 340 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 1: was the end, to go back to the beginning of 341 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 1: your kind of question. So I am super lucky, and 342 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: that in my title is innovation, right, which means I 343 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: get to think differently about how we impact our systems. 344 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: So what here's a couple of truths, is that the 345 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 1: justice system or the legal system is what we call 346 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: it is antiquated. Right. It is rooted in every system 347 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: of harm that could ever exist, from sexism to racism 348 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: to xenophobia. Right to you know that every system of 349 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: harm is what the system is rooted in. Right, Even 350 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: before we had words like xenophobia, right, it was rooted 351 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 1: in an anti immigration, even before we had the titles 352 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: of LGBTQI people, it was rooted in anti gain its right, 353 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: it was it rooted in all these things. And so 354 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 1: it just acts it out in different ways now. And 355 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: so when you really think about changing policies and laws, 356 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: I stand strong and support all of those lawmakers and 357 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: lobbyists that are working to change a lot of policies 358 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: for that, because we need that at the same time, 359 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: but also some of the work that we do, right 360 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: is that while that's happening and we support that and 361 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: do all this, we can also create programming that actually 362 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: can change the outcome for people. Why these things are 363 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: happening simultaneously, right, and so for as an example, like 364 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: right right now, there's a lot happening in the California 365 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: legislatures around housing and housing formally incarcerated people. So why 366 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: y'all figure that out and why you use our work 367 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: and we do all that to help the policy change. 368 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 1: We've created a program that houses formally incarcerated people in 369 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: community homes. Right, So these things can happen simultaneously, and 370 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: we do that in many of our innovative projects because 371 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 1: I think what's important is, you know, this law take 372 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: a long time to change. Policy takes a long time 373 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 1: to change, and as that happens, there is other things 374 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 1: that we can be doing, which is creating programs to 375 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: see the dignity of people, so conditions of confinement to 376 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:57,959 Speaker 1: get into your big question around that, right, Yeah, So right, 377 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: there's there's a bit there's a status quote benefit by 378 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: throwing somebody in a cell and saying like you're done, 379 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: you committed a crime. But what I think is really 380 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: important to be clear about, right, is why this is easy. 381 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: It is because people want to ignore the systemic processes 382 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: of this. Right. Most people that committed crimes didn't just 383 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: like wake up one morning you'd be like, I'm gonna 384 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: rob that bank. That's not what happened, right, It's because 385 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: they are reared in communities that have violence in them. Right. 386 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: These communities are violent typically because they lack resources. Right, 387 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: and not just like resources today, I'm like going back 388 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: to enslavement resources, right, resources to education, resources to add 389 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: to jobs, resource to mental healthcare, all of these things 390 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: that without them lead to what we see today. And 391 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: so right, and so when we start talking about people 392 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 1: that are incarcerated, you have to see the entire human 393 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: for you to really understand what happened. And that is 394 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: why the the status quo doesn't like to see the 395 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: entire human. Right. They like to seem like, oh, there 396 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 1: goes someone who committed a crime. And this is not 397 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,720 Speaker 1: to admit it. This is not to say that the 398 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 1: crime they committed is any like you know, I was 399 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 1: throwing the blank, crime is not any less important or 400 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: impactful like it was hard, right, it was harm to somebody. 401 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: But in order to understand how you both write, do 402 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: what the justice system says, which is around rehabilitation. But 403 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: you have rehabilitate somebody. Is talk is dealing with the 404 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: whole person. And if they're in a system where sexual 405 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: violence is rampant, right, and that's where both people that 406 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: identify as male and female and identify as other genders, right, rampant, 407 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: how the heck do you think that they're going to 408 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 1: come out of healed rehability person if they were literally 409 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: in fear for their lives and that is and that 410 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: is not I'm talking. I'm not just talking about the 411 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 1: people that are incarcerated, right, They're in fear filmal lives 412 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: based upon the people that are in charge of prisons. Right. 413 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: This isn't just like their fellow inmate that are talking 414 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,199 Speaker 1: about this, like these are people. They harm is created, 415 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: is given, is put upon them from the people that 416 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: are running these institutions, right, And so if we're not 417 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: talking about that, then how are we going to get 418 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: to actually what their actual crime was Right, when we 419 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 1: think of what we feed people, Right, every single day 420 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: of your life, you get to choose the meal you eat. 421 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: And you grew up in a society which they told 422 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: you all about the pyramid, told you all about what 423 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: you should and should not eat and how it impacts 424 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: your body, your health, and your choices. Right, Why is 425 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,400 Speaker 1: that same conversation not part of the acarcetral system. When 426 00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: we feed people terrible food, we expect them to act 427 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: differently and to be differently. Right. What's important to think about. Also, 428 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: most people that are incarcerated, right, they come from marginalized communities. Right, 429 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: So what they so they go in with a set 430 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: of circumstances. They go in with a lot of trauma. 431 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: Typically a sexual abuse, especially for women's sexual abuse is 432 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: rampant drug abuse, food apartheid, food deserts. Like, they go 433 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: in with these. Then they go into prison and they 434 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: experience these same things in there. I mean, we released 435 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: a report actually about a year ago today regarding food 436 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 1: in prison. Right, The State of Food was the first 437 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: national report on the state of food in prison. It 438 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: wasn't rocket science, right, turns out it's really bad. But 439 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: what it did do is it really brought to surface 440 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: about like people in prison told us that they were 441 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: forced to eat food that said not fit for human consumption. 442 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: So if you lock me in a cage, right, you 443 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: have taken me my dignity, and then you see you 444 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: serve me food that says not fit for human consumption? 445 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: How do you one think I'm going to act while 446 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: I'm incarcerated? And then how do you think I'm gonna 447 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: act when I get out? And not only did you 448 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,800 Speaker 1: you fed me that though, So when you get out 449 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: and you have hypertension and you have all of these 450 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: diseases that now become issues of the state and the 451 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,560 Speaker 1: county and our community, right, you blame the individual. You're 452 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: like you, you're unhealthy, right, and you're like, hold you. 453 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: I was reared in a community that didn't have healthy food. 454 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: I was placed into ancarsal system that didn't have healthy food, 455 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: and now you want me to get out X amount 456 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 1: of years later and all of a sudden be like 457 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 1: the pivotal health. How does that happen? I guess that's 458 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: not logical sense it. You know, it's like the breakdown 459 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: that you provide is so like clear, right, Like it's 460 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 1: like x times why equal Z, like this is how 461 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,119 Speaker 1: this continued, this cycle. And it's like and what you said, 462 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: I mean, you said so many things, but it's like, 463 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm thinking about a system that is created on punishment 464 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 1: versus rehabilitation. Right. We want to refer to prisons as 465 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,440 Speaker 1: like these rehabilitation centers, but they're not right. We're actually 466 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: not trying to heal or fix what's broken. This system 467 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: is set up to have punishment, to make things so 468 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: bad that then what you decide, Oh, I'm never going 469 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 1: to commit a crime again because I don't want to 470 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: go back there. But we're not creating a system and 471 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: an environment that is a building whole people and then 472 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: putting them back into environments that they can actually thrive in. 473 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: Like the goal is not to have thriving human beings. 474 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: I mean, and I could say the same thing about 475 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, our education system, which I have railed against 476 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: for so many years as well. You want to talk 477 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: about food, right, it was one of the reasons why 478 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: Michelle Obama is like, let's get out, you know, let's 479 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: go outside, let's do all these things. Let's change what 480 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: we are feeding children, because we're allowing corporations to put 481 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 1: pink slime into the meat and say that it's okay 482 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: that only fifty percent of the meat is what is 483 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: actual meat, and then we expect kids to learn. So 484 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: it's like you take people that have come from violent situations, 485 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: you put them into a hellish more violent situation and 486 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: then feed them bullshit and then turn around and expect 487 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: them not to go back and to commit more violence 488 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: acting out what it was that was committed to them. 489 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: It's I feel crazy having just said that I should do, Like, 490 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 1: in all honesty, how do you if we were which 491 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: is your job to innovate and to create a legal 492 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: system that was human focused? What does that look like? 493 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: And what is it like? What what does it look 494 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: like to have a human carcerols system? We're regardless of 495 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: if you've committed crimes, are not, we recognize your humanity. Yeah, 496 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna. I'm gonna. One of the things you said, 497 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: I think is really important is the way we talk 498 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: about the job. The legal system is around this idea 499 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: of punishment and accountability, right, right, and and people confuse 500 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 1: these things all the time. Right. People have confused the 501 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: idea that prison means accountability, which which I which I 502 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,880 Speaker 1: often say is how does that work? Like you can 503 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: commit murder, go to prison for fifty years and still 504 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: be okay with that crime you just create committed. That 505 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you're accountable for it. It just means that 506 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: you threw them in a system like that. That means 507 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: nothing like when you're you know, I have a little niece. 508 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: When my niece lies, you's a love it. When she 509 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: lies and she's in trouble for that, she's probably gonna 510 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: lie again because if I'm her aunt, So I don't 511 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: do that much. I don't do my punishment. I do 512 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:55,439 Speaker 1: a lot of like that was not nice, right, And 513 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: because of that, right oftentimes she was a similar thing 514 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: because she wasn't accountable. I was like, you could do that. 515 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: I took your toy, right, And so I think there's 516 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: this this this confusion around punishment and accountability. There is 517 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,000 Speaker 1: no data to support that if I punish people harm, 518 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: then they won't do a crime. There's quite a bit 519 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: of dame, but that actually exists that actually incarceration is 520 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: not a deterrent for from crime. Right, And I don't 521 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: even the quote you data on it because you can 522 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,200 Speaker 1: see it. Right, if prison was a deterrent, if jail 523 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: was a deterrent. We probably wouldn't see rising crime levels 524 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 1: right now, but we did, right, and that is because 525 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: our communities are not set up to support people that 526 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: are too, that support people that are engaging in prime 527 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 1: right period. Like, well, there's a there's a conversation around 528 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: survival crimes, right, and that's around people that are literally 529 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: surviving and oftentimes they're committing crimes for that survival. Right. 530 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: So I think there's like a bigger conversation that has 531 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: to be had around like what is our goal? You 532 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: know at id Impact, Jess that we talk a lot 533 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: about um around prosecut about prosecution, right, like who's and 534 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: there's a there's a bigger conversation that's been happening in 535 00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: in the prosecution world around um there and just prosecution 536 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: and more and deeper conversations. And that's because right, there's 537 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: a lot of subjectivity that happens between judges and prosecutors, right, 538 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: and oftentimes because like the wind from prosecutors is like, oh, 539 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: we got them locked up for years, you know, that 540 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: was the win, right, But now there's deeper conversations around Okay, 541 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: so who's to say that five years is different than 542 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: three days? Different than six months, Like who provides that data? 543 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 1: Who's to say that? So how are we actually saying 544 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: people are accountable for their behavior? Which just gets me 545 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 1: to this conversation that we do a lot about work 546 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: as our restorative justice aversion team, and that is really 547 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: the way in which we think about how do we 548 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: actually have a different conversation on punishment and accountability? Right 549 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 1: If my desire for you is you have committed harm 550 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: against a person or a community, but my desire is 551 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 1: for you is to one understand the implications of your harm, 552 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: to be accountable for your harm, and work on a 553 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: method and a tract process that will keep you from 554 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: doing that again, and that you can teach other people 555 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,680 Speaker 1: in your community why that is not okay. At the 556 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: same time, another part of this is how do we 557 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: provide the resources for you to ensure that why you 558 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: committed the crime or why what happened in your community 559 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: that allowed for this to happen is also being mitigated 560 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: on this side, right, And so that's aware. You know, 561 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,959 Speaker 1: people always say impact justice, we do a whole lot 562 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: of stuff, and we do, and part of that is 563 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,160 Speaker 1: because we see this as a continuum, Right, It's not 564 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: just about conditions of confinement. It's not just about diversion, 565 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: it's about all of it. It's about reentry, it's about policy, 566 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: it's about all of these things that really go to 567 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: change a system. And so you know, to get to 568 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: your ultimate question, which is around like what could the 569 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: system be like do we just like throw it out? 570 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: If we just throw it away and start again all 571 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: these things? Right? Like, clearly if I was like, let's 572 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,120 Speaker 1: throw it away, that would like, would love to do that. 573 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: The only issue with that, right is I happen to 574 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: not be the status quo, and I happen to not 575 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: be look like. I happen to not look like the 576 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: people that decision to make because in many of my colleagues, 577 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 1: not just that impact justice, but across this nation that 578 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 1: do this amazing work don't always look like often are 579 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: not the people that are called the pot to change systems. 580 00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:59,120 Speaker 1: And so if I say throw it away, right, there's 581 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 1: a fear, right, there's that real fear around like, but 582 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: who gets to make law? Like we look at Congress 583 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: right now, I don't want Mitch McConnell making not a 584 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: single new law, come on me, right, So you know, 585 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: and so you have to even I mean not even 586 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: does that. We deal with moderates, we deal with liberals 587 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: who still don't even understand what we're talking about, right, 588 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: And so I think what is true is that there 589 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: has to be a concerted effort to both understand who 590 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: we are talking about, what the actual systematic issues are 591 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: that led to where we are today, and then how 592 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: do we start to have actual processes that change that. 593 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: The way you do that is one A huge piece 594 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: of that is research, And honestly, some of the reasons 595 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: why we actually get to have these conversations now are 596 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: because researchers got in there and said, here are the 597 00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: numbers that you're hiding or lying about. Here are the people, right, 598 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: here's a face with that number, and it just so happens, 599 00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: and all those faces look real similar, right, All them 600 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: faces turn out look real brown, All those faces turn 601 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: out look really you know. And so when you start 602 00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: to pull data out, then once we have a data 603 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: and we could say, like, this is what this looks like, 604 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: we could say here and you know, we can bring 605 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: it out. This is why people are incarcerated, this is 606 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 1: where they came from, this is who they are. Then 607 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: we can go to chip away at them right. And 608 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: so some of the programs that we do right, like 609 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: one of our programs called the California Justice Leader's Project, 610 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: which is a project in which we it's an amercor 611 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,320 Speaker 1: project that we hire formally incarcerated young people and they 612 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: operate as navigators to young people that are currently in 613 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: the system and we'll be leaving within the next six months. 614 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: And so it's called the credible messenger model. So like 615 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: the person that experienced it is the most credible person 616 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: to actually walk somebody through that process. And the reason 617 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: we have that model right is because again, like what 618 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: I can say or somebody else can say that wasn't 619 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: incarcerated as a young person is very different than a 620 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: person that's incarcerated. And so, and because we've talked about 621 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: how important re entry is, right, we have them walk 622 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: them through the path. What are the things you need? 623 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:47,320 Speaker 1: How am I going to how are you going to 624 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: be set up to change, to change your friend groups? 625 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: What are youse that you need to go back to school? 626 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 1: What are these things? They start to help them walk 627 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: through that process. But one of those things that the 628 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: reason I'm bringing that up is because that's something that 629 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: will change the outcomes for young people, right, because not 630 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: only for the you know, our actual we call our 631 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: members are actual caliform justice leaders. They were incarsepod at 632 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: some point in their life. Through our program, we have 633 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: now given them a job. We are now giving job skills. 634 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: We are giving them mentors, we are giving them the 635 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: ability to give back, we are giving them resume builders, 636 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: and we are giving them connection to an entire network 637 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: of people that they didn't have before. That is a 638 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: key component of how we keep them out of the system, right, 639 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: because now they have something to work with their Like, 640 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: I have a resume, I know I can do this job. 641 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: I actually know I can do something differently, Which is 642 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: a huge part of this conversation is knowing you can 643 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: be different, knowing you can choose differently, and that once 644 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: people know that, right, that goes back to like psychology 645 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 1: one on one, right, Like, once you know and understand 646 00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,719 Speaker 1: there can be a different path for you, it's up 647 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: to us, right, us as in the people that do 648 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: this work, but our policymakers, our advocates, our corporate America 649 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: that's giving money out all these people to actually provide 650 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: processes to do something different. So when I think about 651 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: what a system could and should look like I think 652 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: about a system that's really built on he and accountability. Yes, right, 653 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: because we don't get to healing, we get to nothing. 654 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,279 Speaker 1: Right if we don't talk about what's happening internally with 655 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: your body, with your mind, why you didn't we still 656 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: have nothing at the end of the day. Like one 657 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 1: of the projects we're doing, I'm jumping around, but one 658 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 1: of the projects we're doing on our research team is 659 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: called is Men and Trauma. And that is because right 660 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: there is a conversation that have a little more broadly 661 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:25,960 Speaker 1: around trauma, articulated and sexual assault for women, but we 662 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: don't often talk about people that are incarce men that 663 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,759 Speaker 1: are incarcerated and the trauma that they experience which led 664 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 1: to both their actions and outcomes. And so this project 665 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 1: is really around, right, if we could understand the trauma, 666 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 1: then we could actually adhere to the healing of it. 667 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: We could adhere to the healing of it it. But we 668 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: can get to the accountability piece of it. We get 669 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: to the accountability piece of it, we can create processes 670 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: that keep people from committing these crimes in the first place. 671 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: But also going forward, I've talked a lot. I'll stop, 672 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: you know, you know, I love this so much and 673 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: I love the work that you all are doing so 674 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: much because the fact is that we are broken, and 675 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,600 Speaker 1: we are morally bankrupt and broken society. And the fact 676 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: is that we can clearly look at people from very 677 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 1: young ages based on their zip codes and say you're 678 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: worthy and you are not. And when you decide to 679 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: center people's humanity and center their healing, right, then you 680 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: can build programs and systems that are about creating a 681 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:34,000 Speaker 1: supportive ecosystem around them. Because what I mean when you 682 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: mentioned you know a little bit back about survival crimes, right, 683 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,720 Speaker 1: and the way in which we view like, wait, why 684 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,120 Speaker 1: is somebody in a position where they are breaking the law. 685 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,360 Speaker 1: Of course people that want to break the law because 686 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: they want to break the law, there are other people 687 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: that are like we are faced with no other choice. 688 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: There is no other option. It's either I do this 689 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: or my family doesn't eat. Either I do this or 690 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm sleeping you know, under a bridge, right, Like, there 691 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: are things, there are situations that are created, right that 692 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: for some people when especially when you just said knowing 693 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: that you can be different, knowing that there are other 694 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: choices that you can make. But when we are living 695 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: in a society that doesn't create and imagine choices for 696 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 1: people and doesn't want other certain communities to have choices. 697 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,399 Speaker 1: This is where we end up. And I think that 698 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, to the point that you made about earlier 699 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: about we just we don't want to see things, right, 700 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: We actually don't want to see things just like we 701 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: don't want to see the crumbling of our current democracy. 702 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: We just we want things to just run like well 703 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: oiled machines so that I can put my attention elsewhere. 704 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 1: And the reality is is that we are paying more 705 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: money in the taxes that come out of all of 706 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: our hard earning right to support a prison industrial system 707 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: that then turns around and does us harm right? Like 708 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: does us who has never been in the system harm right? 709 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: And so I just you know, to me, it's like 710 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: every single problem that I talk about on this show 711 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:18,320 Speaker 1: comes back to humanizing people, comes back to just recognizing 712 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: that people are worthy, right, and that no one person 713 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: should have the opportunity or the power to be able 714 00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: to dictate somebody else's humanity and that, you know, and 715 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,840 Speaker 1: to me, that that is what comes out about the center, 716 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,719 Speaker 1: like the foundation of the work that you all are 717 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: doing an impact justice. The last question that I have 718 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: for you is do you feel this as a question 719 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: that I ask a ton of people because I'm probably 720 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: one of the biggest cynics in the world. M but 721 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: do you feel I should do like hopefulness in the 722 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: fact that more people's eyes are open to just how 723 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 1: unjust the legal system is that because of these high 724 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: profile cases that have been followed and people are clearly 725 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: seeing now like, wow, there's a real stark difference between 726 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,879 Speaker 1: how Kyle Rittenhouse was talked about versus Trayvon Martin, who 727 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:23,480 Speaker 1: was an actual victim, right, Like, do you do you 728 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: feel helpful? Yeah? So, I think one of the important 729 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: things that you said that I just want to address 730 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: partially is you know, are there people in the world 731 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: that just commit crimes? Yes, that have mental health challenge 732 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: that commit crimes. Yes. Most people that commit crimes are 733 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 1: doing so on a broad scale of survival crimes, right, 734 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: Like even if like when you're thinking about like the community, 735 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: there are actual tangible commitst survival crimes, right, like I 736 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: robbed the stores, I need to put the campers on 737 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,960 Speaker 1: my baby. Happens all the time. Right. There's also I 738 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,479 Speaker 1: think a deeper conversation that has to be had around 739 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:04,479 Speaker 1: the community that are raising, the communities in which people 740 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: are forced to raise young people in that are that 741 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 1: are such at a lack of resources, that crime is 742 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 1: actually a way of life, that crime is actually an 743 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: economic mobility. Right. We've created these communities because of racism, 744 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: because of classism, and so it's not necessarily just they 745 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: want to commit crimes. It's that they're raising communities that 746 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: are victims of what the society has created, and they 747 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: act out what society created, right, And so it's so 748 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 1: I say that because that's much broader than just like 749 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: they woke up one day and wanted to like, you know, 750 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: bash a card. It's like bigger than that, right, It's 751 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 1: like that's what they understand as a method for them 752 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: to get stuff. That's what they understand as a method 753 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: for them to have some type of economic change or 754 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: to be a part of the community that is that 755 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: has so much crime in it that that is what 756 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: they're taught and they understand. So I just want to 757 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,880 Speaker 1: make like an in just like a distinction kind of 758 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 1: kind of around that um and then all the things 759 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: that you said, yes, I you know, like I like, 760 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: you know, Like, you know, you know what's interesting because 761 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: what I think of these written House case people are 762 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,919 Speaker 1: like really upset. I wasn't that upset, right, And that's 763 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: because like written House is like a white blob to me, Right, 764 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: it could have been written House, It could have been 765 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: like any other white blob that existed on a chair, Right, 766 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: it didn't really matter. And I think what's great is 767 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: that because it was so public, people care differently. Right. 768 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,240 Speaker 1: But I see this every day, right, Like I see 769 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 1: black and brown bodies that are that have experienced so 770 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: much harm, right, and then are put on trial for 771 00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: a crime that they committed and are looked upon as 772 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 1: animals and are not asked, are not even asked questions 773 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 1: in court about who they are as humans, right, you 774 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: know Written House, Like the conversation on him going too 775 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: asu came up, all these things that humanized him, right, 776 00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: Like that humanized who he was came up both in 777 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,040 Speaker 1: the media and assol the court. Right when you watched 778 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: the gymnastics that had to be played for hint for 779 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: to jumping over, like when you watched gym Nasa that 780 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,560 Speaker 1: had you played on the amar Rbury case, right when 781 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 1: you had to watch what happened for that case to 782 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: have the verticot did you didn't see that same thing 783 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: on the Rittenhouse case, right, because the person that was 784 00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: over trying to you know that that, like you had, 785 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: like literally what was happening was a circus in a 786 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: lot of ways, because that is what our criminal legal 787 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: system has become in some ways, because that's built on subjectivity. Right. 788 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: There are laws and technicalities and all these things, but 789 00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: humans are the ones that are enacting these laws, right, 790 00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 1: and so it's all built in subjectivity. And so Rattenhouse right, Right, 791 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,919 Speaker 1: he got off because of a law, right, a law 792 00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: that was created and whatever reason it was created, but 793 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,719 Speaker 1: it was got off because of subjectivity, right, because the 794 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: people that were on the jury of that case, the judge, 795 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: the community, all these people saw a different human in 796 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: that chair, saw a pudgy faced, white blob in that chair, 797 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: and they cared differently about him. I mean, there was 798 00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 1: conversation about his future, right, But when there's a black 799 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,440 Speaker 1: body in that chair, they don't care that they shouldn't 800 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: commit their crime, right, they chose to get rid of 801 00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: their future, right, And the conversations you have, and so 802 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:01,920 Speaker 1: I think when you like and so when I say 803 00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,040 Speaker 1: like white blab, I'm actually not like talking about like 804 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 1: the actual appearance. Yes, now I'm not talking about the 805 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 1: idea of like it doesn't matter film the blank white, 806 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 1: or film the bake, or or even feel you know, 807 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,520 Speaker 1: and race a gender plays a part of that too, 808 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: but film the blank doesn't matter if the outcomes are similar, 809 00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 1: because we're dealing with subjectivity and we're dealing with laws 810 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: and polities, policies that on paper think people talk about 811 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: our gender neutral and race neutral button and actuality because 812 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,120 Speaker 1: humans are enacting them. They become you know, they become 813 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: enacted by the ideas of racism and you see a 814 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 1: play out, you know. And so that's to your question, 815 00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:35,759 Speaker 1: like on my athenic, no, I there is you know, 816 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:39,879 Speaker 1: I am a I'm not that cynical in a lot 817 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,279 Speaker 1: of ways, and you can't be some in some ways 818 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,400 Speaker 1: in the work that I do, right because if I 819 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 1: because I would, I would I would die right because 820 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: I would be so burdened down by what I see 821 00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,359 Speaker 1: every day and the humans I speak to. And so 822 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: whether it's reality or not reality, my response to you is, yes, 823 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: there is hope. And I say that because I've been 824 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm like older, but I'm not like super old, 825 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: like you know, I'm the millennial to put that way. 826 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: You know, but I've been doing this work for a 827 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,319 Speaker 1: lot of My niece calls me a dusty, so there's 828 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,800 Speaker 1: that she actually she needs to go on punishment. Okay, 829 00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: you just about the two thousand girl for Halloween. I 830 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: don't want I don't like her, you know, yeah, like 831 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: it was. It was the whole thing. Oh are you 832 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: a dusty as well? There you got your dust I 833 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: don't like I don't like her. She's eleven, So there 834 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:31,920 Speaker 1: you go. But my point though is that, you know, 835 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,400 Speaker 1: is there's but I've seen so much change, even as 836 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:37,239 Speaker 1: much as I've been in this work, right, Like I see, 837 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 1: like ban the Box didn't exist what I started doing 838 00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:41,520 Speaker 1: this work, which was like the well just you know 839 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: in California's Destination actually now, which allow people not to 840 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: ask questions around around felonies, right, that didn't exist when 841 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: I started this work. We've seen changed, Right when I 842 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,840 Speaker 1: look at talking about sexual violence in prisons, like impact 843 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: Justice runs that when I started doing just work that 844 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,560 Speaker 1: didn't exist. People weren't talking in a way that could 845 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,520 Speaker 1: change sexual violence side of Carcelo facilities and that the 846 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,680 Speaker 1: federal government was going to pay for that, like that 847 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: didn't exist before that, Like conversations on black women being 848 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: incarcerated and criminalized that didn't exist, right, talking about the 849 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,640 Speaker 1: school can find pathways for black young people and girls 850 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,200 Speaker 1: that didn't exist prior, you know, when I first started 851 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,319 Speaker 1: doing this work. And so is there like mountains and 852 00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,239 Speaker 1: valleys and rivers and oceans to crime clots and swam across. Absolutely, 853 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: But you can see change that's happening from both the federal, state, 854 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,239 Speaker 1: and local level. But that's only happening because people have 855 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,880 Speaker 1: continued to scream, continue to knock down doors, and continue 856 00:44:37,920 --> 00:44:40,719 Speaker 1: to talk about what's right and what should happen right, 857 00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:43,000 Speaker 1: And I think and I don't see that changing. And 858 00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:46,759 Speaker 1: I think also because we've had to public display of 859 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,120 Speaker 1: a public display of racist acts, right that people in 860 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,360 Speaker 1: black and brown communities like we like when when the 861 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,120 Speaker 1: ammad armory happened, when George Floyd and Brianna Taylor, we 862 00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,319 Speaker 1: like it wasn't like we was really terrifying for us, 863 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: but it was common. Like you know, I think part 864 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,840 Speaker 1: of what I can tell you, like my response, like 865 00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: ever when Eric Gardner happened. I tapped out. I tapped 866 00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 1: out on that day. That was the day I tapped out, 867 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,640 Speaker 1: and I had an entire dislike ball. I was at 868 00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: my desk at work and I was just crying my 869 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,279 Speaker 1: face off, right because I tapped out at that moment, 870 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: And I have these moments that I tapped out. I 871 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,320 Speaker 1: happened during you know, and am mod r Very was 872 00:45:22,600 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 1: was murdered. I went on my two point one poo 873 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:27,239 Speaker 1: point eleven. I believe my I'll run and I cry 874 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: at the entire way, right, And I think that is 875 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,560 Speaker 1: because the folks that do this work have this this 876 00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: stuff on their shoulders every day that we carry, and 877 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,920 Speaker 1: we have straight bats and long spines, and then sometimes 878 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,320 Speaker 1: it just gets heavy, and we have to be honest. 879 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,000 Speaker 1: We have to be honest about those moments. But we 880 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: also to be honest about the fact that we see 881 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,759 Speaker 1: so much change it's happening. The fact that we get 882 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: the fact that I got to have this conversation with 883 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: you on a podcast that's going to be out to 884 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,880 Speaker 1: millions of people across race talking about the atrocities in 885 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 1: our justice system is progress within itself, and I'm so 886 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,600 Speaker 1: appreciative to the folks that came before me, to the 887 00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,799 Speaker 1: avid gets on the ground and the policymakers that are 888 00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: working to change things at every level, because without all 889 00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: of those things happening, we wouldn't be where we are, 890 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:08,520 Speaker 1: and we will not get to where we're going without 891 00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,560 Speaker 1: people continuing to open up their mouths and speak about 892 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: the dehumanization of black and brown bodies in our justice system. 893 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,400 Speaker 1: I should too, use if I really do hope that 894 00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,400 Speaker 1: you will come back to wok af. I have enjoyed 895 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,960 Speaker 1: every single minute of this conversation. I think that the 896 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,080 Speaker 1: work that you're doing, that Impact Justice is doing is 897 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:33,839 Speaker 1: extraordinary and so needed. And you know, and I really 898 00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,320 Speaker 1: do appreciate the fact that you said you know and 899 00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,880 Speaker 1: not on the fact that you know you're not a cynic, 900 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,080 Speaker 1: because you wouldn't be able to do this work if 901 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: you were. And I think that that is important, because 902 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,040 Speaker 1: you know, even those that while they were enslaved in 903 00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: shackles still persisted and dreamt of something that was bigger 904 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: and different than the experience that they were currently having, 905 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: and if they didn't, none of us would be here. 906 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: And so, you know, to hold on to that hope, 907 00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,920 Speaker 1: I think is extraordinarily necessary for us to keep forging ahead, 908 00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,399 Speaker 1: and so for that I appreciate you. Thank you so 909 00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,720 Speaker 1: very much, and I hope that you will join us again, 910 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,000 Speaker 1: oh anytime. Please let me know. I really appreciate the 911 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:19,840 Speaker 1: conversations you bring to the air. I really do, so 912 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:27,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much. It's been great. Thank you. That 913 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,240 Speaker 1: is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke app 914 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,240 Speaker 1: as always, power to the people and to all the people. Power, 915 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,600 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.