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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And the month of

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Speaker 3: October continues. The monster Ooze flows on. Rob and I

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Speaker 3: were out last week, and in our absence, we featured

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Speaker 3: a couple of vault episodes from the previous October about

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Speaker 3: the Great he Goat, in which we discussed goats as animals,

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Speaker 3: as biological entities, and as symbols, and got into the

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Speaker 3: question of why goats have come to be associated with

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Speaker 3: strange forces and demonic powers, especially in a Western Christian

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Speaker 3: cultural context. Today, we wanted to begin an October themed

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Speaker 3: series in that same vein looking at a different liminal beast,

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Speaker 3: not the Christian imagery of the Grand Goat presiding over

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Speaker 3: the witches Sabbath, but Japanese stories about the ghostly eminence

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Speaker 3: of altered cats.

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Speaker 2: That's right, we're talking about the common house cat, the

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Speaker 2: domesticated if you want to use that word cat, that

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Speaker 2: plays a central role in many of our households. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: instead of and yeah, when it comes to Halloween, the

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Speaker 2: cat has become an icon of the season, especially the

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Speaker 2: black cat, and a lot of that is depending on

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Speaker 2: the Western traditions and Western superstitions, which we're probably not

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Speaker 2: going to get into in this series, but that's informing

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Speaker 2: a lot of that imagery that we're seeing in the West.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, cat as which is familiar.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, cats which is familiar, and then just sort of

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Speaker 2: generally cat hanging out looking a little bit creepy has

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Speaker 2: a nice silhouette to use in various Halloween backgrounds. Though,

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Speaker 2: of course, like the goat, the cat as an organism

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Speaker 2: doesn't really care about trick or treating. It doesn't really

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Speaker 2: care about seances and tannic rites or whatever you have

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Speaker 2: stirred up in your imagination. They have different needs, but

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Speaker 2: they live in close proximity to us. So yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: gonna be focusing on the various supernatural treatments of this

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Speaker 2: animal in Japanese traditions.

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Speaker 3: And rob I have to admit, before you picked this

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Speaker 3: topic and I started looking into it, I was not

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Speaker 3: familiar with how many Japanese monster cats there were, how

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Speaker 3: many cat yokai, and how many specifically cat oriented Japanese

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Speaker 3: horror movies from the mid century there were.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I mean when you stop to think

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Speaker 2: of them, they start jumping out at you. I guess

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Speaker 2: part of it is I think we all know that

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Speaker 2: cats are popular in Japan. If you're even a casual

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Speaker 2: consumer of Japanese pop culture, then you've probably seen various

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Speaker 2: cute cat videos from Japan. You've seen, I guess some

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Speaker 2: of the major stars include Hello Kitty, There's the talking

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Speaker 2: cat Gigi, and Miyazaki's nineteen eighty nine film Kiki's Delivery Service.

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Speaker 2: There's that blue robot cat. I'm not actually sure how

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Speaker 2: to say its name, Doreman. I believe I'm not super

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Speaker 2: familiar with him. But yeah, on top of that, you

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Speaker 2: have luck cats, you have just all sorts of cat imagery,

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Speaker 2: and yes, you also have various horror movies and horror

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Speaker 2: stories that entail the cat. But prior to researching this, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think I would have maybe identified two cat based

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Speaker 2: yokai or cat based Japanese traditional monsters. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: that there were enough to fill a couple of episodes with.

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Speaker 3: Oh wait, I also just remembered the cat bus.

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Speaker 2: Oh goodness, Yeah, it's the cat bus from my neighbor Totoro. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: another iconic cat. And you know, even Totoro has various

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Speaker 2: You could you could say that he has some cat

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Speaker 2: like features. I don't know, he's kind of a combination

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Speaker 2: of panda and bear and so many other things.

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Speaker 3: If a city had cat bus based transportation, would you

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Speaker 3: take it? Would you rely on that transportation?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, the kids in Toto seemed to seem to

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Speaker 2: dig it. It looks soft and warm in there. You know.

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Speaker 2: The whole lining is like a cat's belly, except you

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Speaker 2: won't be scratched if you touch it.

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Speaker 3: I guess I'd be concerned about whether it's going to

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Speaker 3: take me to my destination or its own I don't know,

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Speaker 3: whatever it cares to it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the cat buss does have that kind

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Speaker 2: of cheshire cat spirit to it, like what is it

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Speaker 2: going to do? And this gets to the heart of

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Speaker 2: like the spirit of the cat. I mean. We could

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Speaker 2: go on and on with just you know, personal anecdotes

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Speaker 2: and also all sorts of sort of folk wisdom about

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Speaker 2: the differences between the dog and the cat. What is

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Speaker 2: it like living with a dog versus living with a cat?

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Speaker 2: What is it like encountering an unknown dog versus encountering

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Speaker 2: an unknown cat? There there are so many differences but

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Speaker 2: definitely the cat has a unique spirit that can be challenging,

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Speaker 2: that can be inviting, that can be very comforting. There's

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Speaker 2: a there's really a broad spectrum of attitudes one ends

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Speaker 2: up having, even about the most beloved cat in your life.

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Speaker 3: So you're making the point that cats have a good

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Speaker 3: deal of cultural prominence in Japan, not just in their

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Speaker 3: monstrous forms.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, But by exploring some of the monstrous forms,

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Speaker 2: you also get some insight into how and why they

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Speaker 2: were so admired and are still admired to this day. Now,

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Speaker 2: in terms of sources here, I'm going to refer to

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Speaker 2: there's the older book I have, Yokai Attack The Japanese

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Speaker 2: Monster's Survival Guide by Hiroko Yoda and Matt Alt. That

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Speaker 2: one's really good. But also a couple of books I've

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Speaker 2: picked up for this include Joshua Friedman's The Japanese Myths,

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Speaker 2: A Guide to God's Heroes and Spirits and Zach Davison's

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Speaker 2: Kaibyo The Supernatural Cats of Japan.

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Speaker 3: So this is a book entirely on the altered cats.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, this is a really good one. You can

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Speaker 2: find this wherever you get your books, and it has

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Speaker 2: just so many wonderful illustrations in it and stories. We're

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Speaker 2: gonna touch on some of the main points, but if

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Speaker 2: you want to deeper dive into the world of Japanese

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Speaker 2: supernatural cats, that's a book to pick up. Now, getting

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Speaker 2: back briefly, just to the general idea of cats in Japan,

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Speaker 2: the domestic cat in Japan, I want to refer to

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Speaker 2: a recent New York Times article titled Why do Cats

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Speaker 2: hold Such mythic power in Japan? By Hanya Yanagahara. The

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Speaker 2: author here points out that house cats are thought to

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Speaker 2: have first arrived in Japan during the sixth century CE,

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Speaker 2: brought in via the Silk Road as a curiosity from India,

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Speaker 2: via China, or possibly from Korea. I think they're just

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Speaker 2: different possible routes that cats may have taken. And at

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Speaker 2: that point, Yanagahara points out that cats would have likely

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Speaker 2: enjoyed the split value that they enjoyed everywhere else they

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Speaker 2: traveled via human beings. They proved themselves an aid to

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Speaker 2: agricultural pursuits, feasting on rodents, and they were amusing. They're

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Speaker 2: amusing to look at, they're amusing to watch and to

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Speaker 2: try and figure out, and they can become quite affectionate,

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Speaker 2: especially if it serves their purposes.

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Speaker 3: Right. So cute and useful an unbeatable combination.

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Speaker 2: Right. And Azani Gahara points out Japan was both an

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Speaker 2: agricultural country and a court culture country as well, so

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Speaker 2: we can imagine the cat catching on at every level

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Speaker 2: of society.

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Speaker 3: I see that. So in the agricultural sense, the cat

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Speaker 3: is useful because you can have one around your grain

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Speaker 3: supplies to keep the rats out of it. But in

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Speaker 3: the wealthy court setting, it might be attractive to have

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Speaker 3: a cat in your lap or in your vicinity as

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Speaker 3: a beautiful regal object or companion.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Yeah, well what the cat is here to

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Speaker 2: fulfill those needs either way again, if it wants to. Now.

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Speaker 2: Zach Davison in his book emphasizes a kind of court

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Speaker 2: first trajectory for cats taking hold in Japan. And we

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Speaker 2: do have Hayan period descriptions of how wonderful cats were

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Speaker 2: and how much the emperors of the time period loved them.

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Speaker 2: But his populations grew, they were no longer confined to palaces,

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Speaker 2: and as they lost their regal and exotic air, more

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Speaker 2: attention was placed on their behaviors and alleged then sprang

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Speaker 2: up about them, both rural and urban in nature. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course, I'm not sure if this is necessarily a

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Speaker 2: case where, you know, we always have to acknowledge that

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Speaker 2: sometimes it's those accounts from the upper parts of society

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Speaker 2: that stand the test of time and it's not the

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Speaker 2: lives of people lower down the socioeconomic ladder. But this

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Speaker 2: sounds reasonable, right, I mean, as the cat coming in

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Speaker 2: as an exotic singularity, brought into the court, enjoyed in

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Speaker 2: the court. But over time, cats are going to reproduce,

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Speaker 2: the population is going to swell, and there's going to

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Speaker 2: be like a trickle down cat economy in a given country.

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Speaker 3: Yes, there's a cat sieve, and eventually the cats make

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Speaker 3: their way through to every corner of the country.

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Speaker 2: Now, another wrinkle in this that Davison points out is

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Speaker 2: that it can be a little difficult to pin down

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Speaker 2: exactly when written records are are are specifically talking about cats.

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Speaker 2: And this concerns something that's come up before on the

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Speaker 2: show concerning like novel animals in a given culture, and

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Speaker 2: that is that when it comes to the way that

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Speaker 2: animals were written about in ancient Japan, known animals had

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Speaker 2: unique kanji characters, new animals did not, and it sometimes

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Speaker 2: took centuries for them to get unique characters, so instead

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Speaker 2: you'd use other animal characters in their place. So Davison

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Speaker 2: points out that in ancient Japan, the same kanji character

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Speaker 2: designated both tanuki and cat, so it was sometimes sometimes

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Speaker 2: difficult to look back at these writings and determine exactly

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Speaker 2: what animal is being described.

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Speaker 3: So in kind of the same way, you might imagine like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, early medieval European writings about seafaring, and

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Speaker 3: like you can't tell if they're trying to describe a

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Speaker 3: mythical sea monster or a real whale or some type

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Speaker 3: of fish. It's just a word that means like some

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Speaker 3: kind of creature. It's clearly in the water, but other

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Speaker 3: than that, you're not sure what it's referring to.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or how everything is a type of apple. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So you can imagine where it would be confusing going

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Speaker 2: back and trying to figure out all this stuff. Now,

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Speaker 2: so at any rate we can, one way or another,

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Speaker 2: cats eventually really catch on. They're everywhere. One important date

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Speaker 2: in Japanese cat history, this would be the year sixteen

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Speaker 2: oh two. This is the year, according to Davidson, that

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Speaker 2: during which amidst a plague of rats destroying Japanese silkworm industry,

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Speaker 2: the Japanese government issues uneed it release all domestic cats

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Speaker 2: to battle the rats, which maybe sounds a bit extreme,

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Speaker 2: but they apparently did it. They made it illegal to

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Speaker 2: buy or sell cats. Just release them, let them do

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Speaker 2: their thing, let them fight the good fight against the rats. However,

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Speaker 2: apparently it might not have actually helped much. It seems

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Speaker 2: like there's some writings that kind of dispute the the

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Speaker 2: idea that this was really all about. Helpful Davidson SHARE's

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Speaker 2: a quote that I've seen featured in numerous sources talking

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Speaker 2: about cats in Japan. This is from a character has

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Speaker 2: come up on the show before. I believe, a German

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Speaker 2: doctor visiting Japan during the period, doctor Ingelbert Kompfer.

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Speaker 3: That name rings a bell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't remember the context what we were talking about,

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Speaker 2: but I'm pretty sure he's come up before. But he wrote,

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Speaker 2: there is only one breed of cat that is kept

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Speaker 2: in Japan. He's discussing here. It has large patches of yellow,

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Speaker 2: black and white fur. Its short tail looks as if

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Speaker 2: it has been bent and broken. It has no mind

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Speaker 2: to hunt for rats and mice, but just wants to

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Speaker 2: be carried and stroked by women, which I think this

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Speaker 2: could basically be applied to many cats in our lives.

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Speaker 2: This sounds a lot like my cat Mochi yellow, black

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Speaker 2: and white.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And Calico just wants to hang out generally with

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Speaker 2: my wife and will occasionally hang out with me if

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Speaker 2: it's enough in the house, and doesn't particularly want to

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Speaker 2: chase anything around except me. Sometimes sometimes you will attack my.

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Speaker 3: Feet, by the way, I just had to look it

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Speaker 3: up to see when Engelbert Kempfer came up before, and

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Speaker 3: this was another connection from the vegetable Lamb of Tartary episode.

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Speaker 3: He had a theory apparently. I don't remember whether it

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Speaker 3: was more on track or more off track. I think

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Speaker 3: it was one of the off track ones.

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Speaker 2: Okay. Now, another interesting historical cat tib that comes up

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Speaker 2: in this book from Japan. In eighteen forty two, Emperor

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Speaker 2: Tatakuni instituted the Tenpo Reforms, which sort of reined in

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Speaker 2: what could be presented in the arts, especially as a

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Speaker 2: concerned kabuki and geisha imagery. However, nowhere in the law

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Speaker 2: did it say you couldn't depict cats doing all of

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Speaker 2: these things. So artists of the day began to illustrate

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Speaker 2: drunken and cavorting cats like basically, you know, kabuki style

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Speaker 2: cat soap opera, which which I love because you know,

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Speaker 2: this kind of reminds me of the whole like nobody

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Speaker 2: says a donkey can't play football sort of a thing,

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Speaker 2: and also brings to mind dogs playing poker.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, airbud rules apply. I love that.

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Speaker 2: Now. Friedman, in his book writes the stories of cats

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Speaker 2: date back to at least as far as the Hayan

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Speaker 2: period seven ninety four through eleven eighty five see concerning

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Speaker 2: the cats kept by the Emperor By the fourteenth century.

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Speaker 2: Magical cats pop up in numerous works of art, in literature,

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Speaker 2: and of course they become central parts of Japanese folklore

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Speaker 2: in a legend as well. In this episode, yeah, we're

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Speaker 2: going to provide an overview of these strange cats, these kaibyo,

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Speaker 2: the strange cats, supernatural cats. They have a number of

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Speaker 2: things in common, but they all have distinctive flavors, and

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Speaker 2: some of them are more threatening than others. Now, as

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Speaker 2: Friedman points out, one of the main attributes you find

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Speaker 2: in various tales of strange magical cats in Japan. Is

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Speaker 2: that is the idea that, as with tales of magical foxes,

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Speaker 2: kaibyo are individual cats who have lived long enough to

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Speaker 2: acquire magical abilities and also, like fox spirits grow multiple tales.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's an interesting comparison to the way the altered

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Speaker 3: foxes are treated in stories. Those commonalities. I was trying

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Speaker 3: to think, what is the difference between like a monstrous

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Speaker 3: altered fox and a monstrous altered cat. And in my view,

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Speaker 3: you know, the fox seems like it has the potential

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Speaker 3: to be more of a chaotic alignment, and so in

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Speaker 3: its bad form, it's kind of chaotic evil, whereas the

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Speaker 3: cat in its monstrous form. I don't know, cats can

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Speaker 3: be chaotic, and I know in some of these stories

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Speaker 3: they are, but it seems like more of a cold,

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Speaker 3: calculating evil to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's that's accurate. But it's also interesting

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Speaker 2: to think of this as in a situation where you

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Speaker 2: have superstitions concerning an animal that is native to Japan,

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Speaker 2: the red fox, and then when you bring in these

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Speaker 2: animals from outside, these these domestic cats, something gets applied

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Speaker 2: to them that was previously applied to native organisms. We

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Speaker 2: do need to be clear that there is no such

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Speaker 2: thing as a domestic cat with more than one tail.

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Speaker 2: There are, however, two types of morphological mutations that affect

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Speaker 2: the tail. There's the Manx tailless gene, which can prove lethal,

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Speaker 2: and then there's the Japanese bobtail gene, in which the

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Speaker 2: tail is shortened and kinked, but otherwise doesn't seem to

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Speaker 2: really impact health, or at the very least, it doesn't

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Speaker 2: entail skeletal issues and or involve death with certain genotypes.

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Speaker 2: The Japanese bobtail gene is of course of note here because,

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Speaker 2: as the name implies, it is native to Japan. It

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Speaker 2: emerged there in Japan's feline population, though it has since

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Speaker 2: spread beyond the limits of Japan. Now Here is an area, though,

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Speaker 2: that I want to stress that I wasn't able to

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Speaker 2: get like one hundred percent clarity on for my own

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Speaker 2: research purposes, and that is the alleged practice of bobbing

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Speaker 2: or docking cat tales in Japan. I couldn't find many

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Speaker 2: solid contemporary references to this, though Friedman mentions it in passing,

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Speaker 2: and there's a lot of dismissal of the idea as

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Speaker 2: a myth in general. So, on one hand, the Japanese

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Speaker 2: bobtail variant was at one point considered lucky, and Friedman

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Speaker 2: indicates that this could have influenced a tail docking practice,

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Speaker 2: some practice by which the tales of domestic cats are removed,

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Speaker 2: though he also writes with uncertainty about exactly how superstition, mutilation,

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Speaker 2: and genetic mutation would have been intertwined here. You know,

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Speaker 2: because if this was taking place to any degree, you know,

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Speaker 2: you asked the you can easily ask the question, well,

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Speaker 2: is it because of superstition? Is it because of the

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Speaker 2: genetic mutation that was already there? And you know, to

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Speaker 2: and to what extent these things are interplaying with each other. Now.

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Speaker 2: Tail bobbing of different forms does seem to come up

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Speaker 2: in historic foreign writings on Japan, including a nineteen oh

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Speaker 2: six letter by Greek writer left Kadio Hearn, who mentions

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Speaker 2: kittens having their tails cut off so that they don't

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Speaker 2: grow up to become a monster cat of one sort

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Speaker 2: or the other. Of course, the obvious situation with this

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Speaker 2: is you're dealing with with outsiders who are then you know,

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Speaker 2: you're dealing with possible translation errors. You're dealing with them

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Speaker 2: having to you know, perhaps make sense of local lore

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Speaker 2: concerning a genetic mutation that's not completely understood and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Or just making assumptions about things they've observed without understanding

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Speaker 3: key elements. Like you could imagine a scenario where somebody

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Speaker 3: observes a place where there is a genetic mutation that

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Speaker 3: creates bobtailcats, and they assume people cut off the tails.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because as we've we're very mentioned apparently like the

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Speaker 2: bobtailed effect does kind of look like you can easily

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Speaker 2: look at it and think, oh, well, something bad happened

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Speaker 2: to that animal's tale, et cetera. Now, a legend that

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Speaker 2: I've seen mentioned in multiple texts is that the original

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Speaker 2: bobtail cat lost its tail when it caught fire, causing

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Speaker 2: it to run about and catch a whole town on fire,

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Speaker 2: resulting in an imperial decree cats should not have tails

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Speaker 2: because they are fire hazards. This is obviously not true,

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Speaker 2: but it does illustrate there's a lot of room for

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Speaker 2: just so stories here. You know, some sort of story

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Speaker 2: that is obviously fictional and legendary, but it is providing

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Speaker 2: some sort of an origin story for something in nature

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Speaker 2: that is not completely understood. So Yeah, there's plenty of

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Speaker 2: room for translationaire foreign misinterpretation and more. I mean, of course,

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Speaker 2: on the other hand, we have to acknowledge that cosmetic

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Speaker 2: mutilation of dogs and cats is nothing new and can

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Speaker 2: be found in various cultures. With cats, there's the example

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Speaker 2: of decline, which had been widespread in the US and

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Speaker 2: Canada in prior decades and generally entails more than the

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Speaker 2: removal of the clock self, but like the end of

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Speaker 2: the digit on each clow finger, and then tail docking

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Speaker 2: and ear cropping was widespread and has now banded many

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Speaker 2: countries With dogs. I mentioned all of this just for

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Speaker 2: added context and the consideration of potential historic tail docking.

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Speaker 2: But again, there seems plenty of evidence to consider a

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Speaker 2: mutation the primary cause here.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so question marks about the extent to which tail

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Speaker 3: docking was a real historical practice. But one thing we

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Speaker 3: know for sure is that there are lots of stories

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Speaker 3: of monster cats with weird tales.

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Speaker 2: That's right, yes, And so the first one we're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about here is the Nikomata. These are cats

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Speaker 2: that are said to have lived for a hundred years.

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Speaker 2: And what happens when you live to be one hundred

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Speaker 2: years and you're a cat according to these traditions and superstitions,

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Speaker 2: Well you get a second tale. The first tale splits

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Speaker 2: in half, and now there are two tails, and other

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Speaker 2: changes occur as well. Suddenly this cat has a craving

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Speaker 2: for human flesh. They grow to the to be the

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Speaker 2: size of like a large dog or wolf. They may

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Speaker 2: walk on two legs, and thus at this point they

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Speaker 2: are no longer a domestic cat, a cat of the

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Speaker 2: natural world. They have become a feline yo kai. According

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Speaker 2: to Davison, the fourteenth century work Essays and Idleness tells

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Speaker 2: the story of a man who thinks himself pursued through

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Speaker 2: the night by a nikomata, but it turns out to

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Speaker 2: be his own dog. The creature was written about during

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Speaker 2: the Edo period, This is the golden age of Yokai lore,

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Speaker 2: but Davison stresses that the roots of the nikomata go

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Speaker 2: back centuries earlier. So, according to Davison, some versions of

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Speaker 2: the nikomata may date back to Chinese traditions in the

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Speaker 2: short lived Sei dynasty five eighty one through six eighteen CE,

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Speaker 2: and then written about in Japan at least by the

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Speaker 2: Kamakura period. That's eleven eighty five through thirteen thirty three,

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Speaker 2: but the accounts were not really of a supernatural cat yet,

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Speaker 2: but rather of a large tiger or lion like predatory

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Speaker 2: animal that lived in the mountains. You know, the situation

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Speaker 2: where it was like, don't you know, be careful if

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Speaker 2: you go off into the wilderness because that is where

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Speaker 2: the nikomado lives. Attacks of this creature were apparently reported

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Speaker 2: as just fact that this was not something legendary, It

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Speaker 2: was just something that might happen to you if you

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Speaker 2: were unlucky in the wilderness. Oh.

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Speaker 3: It reminds me of the dad taking his kid to

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Speaker 3: see aliens saying, no, he needs to see this because

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Speaker 3: he needs to know things like this can happen in

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Now. Davidson writes that there are different speculations

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Speaker 2: about what this could all be about. There's at least

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Speaker 2: one idea that it could be evidence of a surviving,

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Speaker 2: perhaps prehistoric variety of yemen eco or leopard cat, so

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Speaker 2: you know, essentially like some sort of at the time

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Speaker 2: surviving a large predatory cat there. Also, he also brings

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Speaker 2: up the idea that well tigers were brought in as

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Speaker 2: curiosities during this time. Perhaps one escaped and was living

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Speaker 2: in the forest and had attacked people. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: easily one of those situations where if you just have

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Speaker 2: one tiger attack occur like this, it's enough to leave

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Speaker 2: an imprint in folklore. And then another idea that's perhaps

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Speaker 2: more compelling is that these could be sort of enhanced

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Speaker 2: accounts of rabid animal attacks. So rabies could essentially be

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Speaker 2: what is it the heart of these stories that would

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Speaker 2: make sense. Yeah, So anyway, we have these stories from

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Speaker 2: the wilderness of some sort of large nicomata cat, and

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Speaker 2: then during the Edo period we see this legend intensified.

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Speaker 2: So Davison writes that the cats get larger, they get

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Speaker 2: more fierce in the stories, but then they're transformed into

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Speaker 2: not a distinct species, but is a power upgrade to

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Speaker 2: just the common domestic cat. Again, it gets old enough,

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Speaker 2: the tail splits, and now you have a different creature

401
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Speaker 2: on your hands, and its appetites, its desires, it's cunning

402
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Speaker 2: or something entirely new.

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Speaker 3: At that point, this touches on something interesting because I'm

404
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Speaker 3: I got interested in the idea of the nekomada being

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Speaker 3: a thing that is created when a cat reaches a

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Speaker 3: sufficient age, and so here I want to turn to

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Speaker 3: notes from a book that I've referred to on the

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Speaker 3: podcast before called The Book of Yokai by an Indiana

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Speaker 3: University folklore scholar named Michael Dylan Foster. And there was

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Speaker 3: a section of the book that I thought was really

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Speaker 3: interesting because I was originally looking at it just because

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Speaker 3: it had a glancing mention of yokai stories about cats,

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Speaker 3: but actually it got to a broader theme about the

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Speaker 3: significance of the number one hundred in Japanese spooky storytelling.

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Speaker 3: So the book is talking about a historical tradition known

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Speaker 3: as the hayaku monogatari, which is a Japanese tradition of

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Speaker 3: gatherings where people would come together to trade stories of

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Speaker 3: the weird and uncanny in the hopes of actually inducing

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Speaker 3: a supernatural experience through the storytelling. Oh that's wise, I agree,

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Speaker 3: I think, yeah, that's a great plan. I would love

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Speaker 3: to go to one of these.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So it works like this. People would gather by night

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Speaker 3: in a room or maybe in like a he says,

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Speaker 3: in like a semi public place, a room, a gathering place,

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Speaker 3: a temple, maybe in a place lit by candles or lanterns,

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Speaker 3: and the people gathered would take turns recounting tales of

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Speaker 3: ghosts or yokai, and after each story was finished, I

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Speaker 3: think the stories would be fairly short. After each story

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Speaker 3: was over, one of the lanterns or candles would be

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Speaker 3: snuffed out until you keep getting fewer and fewer lights.

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Speaker 3: And then after the final tale ends and the final

433
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: flame is extinguished, that would leave the room completely dark,

434
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 3: at which point the people in attendance might get to

435
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 3: see a real yokai in the darkness.

436
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: Oh I like it. I mean, and again this is

437
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: wise because if you want to prime yourself for having

438
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,880
Speaker 2: a supernatural encounter, there's no better way than to lower

439
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: the lights and start recounting strange tales.

440
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: If you build it, they will come. Yeah. So the

441
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 3: book quotes a late seventeenth century Buddhist priest and author

442
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:24,959
Speaker 3: named Assai Rioi, who writes quote, it is said that

443
00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 3: when you collect and tell one hundred stories of scary

444
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 3: or strange things that have been passed down since long ago,

445
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 3: something scary or strange is certain to occur. So tell

446
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: one hundred stories about it. Make it happen for real.

447
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 3: Oh I like this, And Foster says this was probably

448
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 3: not always understood as a literal threshold of exactly one

449
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: hundred stories, even though that is literally what hayaku monogatari means,

450
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: but in practice it probably just means a lot of stories.

451
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 3: And you can tell this because some of the hayakum

452
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 3: gatari collections have fewer than one hundred stories in them,

453
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 3: so you know, this probably doesn't actually need to be

454
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 3: literally one hundred. On the other hand, he relates this

455
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 3: to other Japanese tales of the magical and uncanny in

456
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 3: which the number one hundred has special properties. For example,

457
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 3: a subject that we have done an episode about on

458
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 3: stuff to blow your mind before, the sukumogami, which are

459
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 3: these inanimate household objects, you know, hammers, dinnerwar brooms, objects

460
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 3: from the house that transform into magical, animate sentient beings

461
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: when they turn the age of one hundred.

462
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 2: I remember this, yees seeing up with a parade of

463
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:50,400
Speaker 2: bewitched old.

464
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: Things exactly, And I remember we talked about one famous

465
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: story where I think they all get converted to a

466
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: specific branch of Buddhism at the end. Yes, yes, But

467
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 3: as another example of the transformative power of the number

468
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 3: one hundred in some Japanese stories, Foster writes that it

469
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 3: was sometimes said that an ordinary animal that had reached

470
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 3: the age of one hundred would undergo a magical metamorphosis

471
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: and become a yokai. And these animals could include foxes,

472
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: could include tanuki, and yes, also cats. And so, coming

473
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 3: back to your comment earlier, Rob, that cats that reach

474
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 3: a sufficient age could transform into some type of altered

475
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: cat or supernatural cat yokai like a nekomata. You apparently

476
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: have to watch out for those ninety nine year old cats.

477
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 3: They are just biding their time until the birthday and

478
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: then they have the power.

479
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: That's right, that's right up until ninety nine decent, you know,

480
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: probably household cat, but one hundred years old, watch out.

481
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: Now they're a menace. Now.

482
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 3: I think there are also stories where cats reach a

483
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 3: certain age and become transformed or dangerous in some way,

484
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 3: and the number is not exactly one hundred, But I

485
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 3: do think it's interesting that there is a recurring theme

486
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 3: about the number one hundred across these different stories. You know,

487
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 3: for some reason, this is the number after which things

488
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 3: get weird. Now, I just want to mention what Foster

489
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 3: says directly about the nekomata as a yokai type. He

490
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 3: says that many written accounts of nekomata describe them as

491
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 3: monstrously large cats living in the wilderness in mountains and forests,

492
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,240
Speaker 3: but sometimes also found in human settlements. But the idea

493
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,360
Speaker 3: of locating them mountain the mountains and forests, that kind

494
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 3: of goes along with what you were saying about, the

495
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 3: idea that these could go back to stories of like

496
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 3: a wild animal that is occupying a place and is dangerous.

497
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 2: That's right. And I should also mention that Davidson of

498
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: Relief stresses that the sort of rural version of the

499
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: nikamata as this wild large mountain cat that isn't necessarily

500
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 2: connected to domestic cats that still remained a folk belief

501
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 2: out in the wilds or on the borders of the wild.

502
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: But then you get this new version of the nekomata

503
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: that is more urban and based more on the domestic housecat.

504
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: This might actually be going back to the same source

505
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 3: referenced in the book you were talking about, but at

506
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 3: least Foster talks about an early story of the nkomata

507
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 3: appearing in the literature from twelve thirty three, and it

508
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: is described in this source as a creature with the

509
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 3: eyes of a cat but the body of a huge dog.

510
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 3: And I think that's a striking combination that kind of

511
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: sets the mind racing, not only because it has this

512
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 3: classic recipe of monster creation, which is combining different attributes

513
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,719
Speaker 3: of different animals, you know, using sort of the mixing

514
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: and matching power of the human mind to kind of,

515
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 3: you know, potato head up different different predator features. But

516
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: I think it's interesting that you're taking the eyes of

517
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 3: a cat and the body of a dog. So the

518
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,040
Speaker 3: physical power of a big dog, and as scary as

519
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: cats can be, sometimes if you're talking about domestic animals,

520
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 3: it's you know, you can understand why you might be

521
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 3: more physically intimidated by a big dog than by a

522
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 3: house cat. But without the dog's sweet and subservient nature,

523
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 3: you instead bring in the eyes. And of course with

524
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,239
Speaker 3: the eyes we equate eyes to mind. And so if

525
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 3: you're putting the mind of a cat in the body

526
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 3: of a big, powerful dog, it's like the uncontrollable and

527
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 3: a moral will to power of a cat in the

528
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 3: body of a dog that could really harm you. Yes, yes,

529
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 3: And as you mentioned, Robin, these early stories, and in

530
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 3: this one, the Nekamata eats seven or eight people in

531
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 3: a single night.

532
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: That's too many. You know that that nkamata is just

533
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 2: going to barf up most of those people, and then

534
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 2: someone's gonna have to clean it up.

535
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: He's gonna barf up six of those people in your shoes.

536
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 2: Right, and then it's going to look at me like, hey,

537
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 2: I'm still hungry. I don't know why I'm hungry.

538
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 3: Help. And then finally, I just wanted to quote from

539
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 3: part of a paragraph Foster has here. He's writing about

540
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 3: a Japanese source that has illustrations of nekamata, So Foster writes,

541
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 3: quote Toriyama Sekion illustrates a nekamata in his first catalog.

542
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 3: It stands on two legs on the outer veranda of

543
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: a house with a small towel on its head. Another cat,

544
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: presumably not a yokai, sits on the ground below it,

545
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 3: while a third seems to be looking out from inside

546
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 3: the house. Although Sekian does not explain anything here, the

547
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: nkamata is portrayed as betwixt and between the human and

548
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 3: natural worlds. It is wild, but wears a towel on

549
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 3: its head, stands on two legs like a person, and

550
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: is perched literally on the outer edge of a human habitation,

551
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 3: with one cat outside, possibly feral, behind it, and another inside,

552
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 3: possibly domestic, in front of it.

553
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean it again, like

554
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: all these these examples are looking at you know, they're

555
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 2: touching on the superstition and the you know, the mythic

556
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: and folkloric world, but they're also commenting on like a

557
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 2: lot of time spent with cats trying to figure them out,

558
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: you know, how they're they're domesticated, but they're still wild,

559
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: like they're they are suspended between worlds.

560
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right. I don't know the mind

561
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 3: of the illustrator here, but this seems like it could

562
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 3: be providing some rather nuanced analysis. But with this kind

563
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 3: of drawing, like uh, commenting on the nature of the

564
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 3: cat as a as a pet or as a domestic

565
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: animal that it's own, it's only partly part of our world.

566
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 3: And also I like the implied threat of the nearness

567
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: of the known, normal, mundane cats to this monstrous cat

568
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 3: that you know what I mean, like kind of like

569
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 3: placing them beside one another is almost like, you know,

570
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 3: watch out, watch out for the the nature of the cat.

571
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 2: You think, you know, yeah, because the just normal housecat

572
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: knows that they're a nikamata out there and just doesn't care.

573
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, this is just how it is now,

574
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: I do. Really, I'm glad you brought up the towel

575
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 2: on the head because that is important when considering the

576
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 2: next example we're going to talk about here, and that

577
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 2: is the bachan echo, the shape shifting cat. So in

578
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 2: this case you get even more advanced age numerous tales,

579
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: and it grants them the ability to change their form

580
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: and interfere directly in human affairs. So not just scratches,

581
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 2: you know, not just messing up furniture, attacking feet and

582
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 2: so forth, not just merely eating people after you turn

583
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: into a giant cat, a giant monster cat, but actually

584
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: taking on a human form and directly interfering in the

585
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: human world, sometimes helping humans, sometimes hunting them for sport. Again,

586
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 2: they're just like the domestic cat in spirit. They're completely immoral.

587
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: They may be helpful, they may be sweet, it depends

588
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: on what they want. Now. Davison and discussing the becan Niko,

589
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,879
Speaker 2: writes that they were said to in their cat form,

590
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 2: dance on their hind legs and wear towels on their heads.

591
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 2: This account, he says, apparently spawned from a story about

592
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: a soy sauce merchant who kept finding his towels in

593
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: disarray and then hid one night to see what was happening.

594
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 2: What's happening to my towels at night? And what was

595
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: happening while cats were coming in wearing the towels on

596
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: their head and dancing around on their hind legs, you know.

597
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: And he was horrified and I don't remember, perhaps eaten

598
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 2: at the end. But apparently this is a magical trope

599
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: in Japanese folklore, an animal puts something on its head,

600
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 2: like with the tanuki. The tanuki will put leaves on

601
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 2: its head and this helps activate magical powers. He also

602
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: adds here that some traditions describe becan Nico's as humans

603
00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: who can turn into cats and tom Sometimes the story

604
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: is that if a cat drinks the blood of a

605
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: murder victim, they will transform into a back in eko,

606
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 2: taking the shape of the victim in order to seek vengeance.

607
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this appears to be a major plot point

608
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: in a movie I was looking at, because Foster mentions

609
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: it in his right up on the bakan Echo. But

610
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,480
Speaker 3: there is a movie from nineteen sixty nine directed by

611
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 3: Tanaka Tokuzo called The Haunted Castle, and it has exactly

612
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 3: this plot. I think there is an evil landlord and

613
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 3: woman who is wronged by this evil landlord and she

614
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: ends up I believe, killing herself or somehow and letting

615
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: a cat drink her blood, and this transforms the cat

616
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,880
Speaker 3: into a creature, a monster of vengeance that goes and

617
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 3: attacks the man who is oppressing her.

618
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: Nice. Nice I was looking. I noticed there's a nineteen

619
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 2: sixty eight film called beakan Eko a Vengeful Spirit, which

620
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 2: looks like it maybe has a similar plot and will come.

621
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,480
Speaker 2: You know, there's an interesting area where we're already touching

622
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: on here, this connection between living domestic cats and deceased

623
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: human beings. Essentially, we're getting into the realm of post

624
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 2: mortem predation, in which an animal, in this case a

625
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: cat pet animal will drink the blood or consume some

626
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: of the flesh of someone who has died. If someone

627
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: in the house has died, even a know an owner

628
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: who loved that animal in life, well, still your pet

629
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 2: is an animal, and they may have a little to eat.

630
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: It's just how it goes. It's a known fact, a

631
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: known reality of having pets, but it also ends up

632
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: leading to various supernatural interpretations, this connection between in this case,

633
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,080
Speaker 2: the cat and the dead. So again more on that later,

634
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 2: but in terms of just sort of like a general

635
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 2: possible origin story for this idea of cats taking on

636
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:54,560
Speaker 2: human form, Davidson shares shares this idea. Okay, you have

637
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: oil lamps at the time that are being used to

638
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: illuminate homes in the fish oil is used in these lamps.

639
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: Cats want some of that fish oil, and so they

640
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 2: will stand on their hind legs and try to access

641
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 2: the fish oil in the lamps, which in turn casts

642
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: strange shadows on the wall. And this you can combine

643
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: this can combine this with other sort of uncanny aspects

644
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,839
Speaker 2: of the cat. You know, their vocalizations that certainly can

645
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 2: sometimes sound almost human, almost like a baby or something,

646
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: or like they're trying to intone something, as well as

647
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: just all the other you know, very suspect things that

648
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 2: cats are doing on just a regular daily basis. I mean,

649
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: just generally speaking, I will say that you know when

650
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 2: you see, just anecdotally, when you see a cat standing

651
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: on its hind legs, which they can do. They can't

652
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: rear up if they want to, if they need to

653
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 2: see over something, et cetera. It is a little weird

654
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 2: because suddenly they're bipedal. Suddenly they are. It's like they're

655
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: taking on a different form. And cats can move their

656
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: bodies in so many different ways that, yeah, they like

657
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: we've discussed in the show before, they can almost seem fluid.

658
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: They can. It can feel like they are changing their

659
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: shape in a way that is not tethered to some

660
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 2: skeletal or muscular form, or at least not one like

661
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 2: we're used to considering with a human being or even

662
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 2: like a dog.

663
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 3: Now, regarding bipedal imagery of monster cats from Japan, I

664
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 3: hate to bring the Internet into this, but I found

665
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 3: what struck me as a substantial meme incursion onto my

666
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: processing of antique Japanese. All right, there's a picture that

667
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 3: is up on the wiki for this creature, for the

668
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 3: Bakan Echo, that comes from an eighteenth century imachi or

669
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 3: picture scroll by the Japanese painter and poet Yosa Busan.

670
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 3: This painting is called the Bakan Echo of the Sasakibara family,

671
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 3: and it depicts a monster cat in a bizarre bipedal

672
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: posture with four legs spread out kind of like shrugging

673
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 3: arms like what do you want from me? Of course,

674
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,720
Speaker 3: a towel on the cat's head, sort of a napkin

675
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: hanging off the back of the cat's head behind the ear,

676
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 3: and a facial expression that is equal parts menace and

677
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 3: goof sole. And as soon as I saw it, I thought,

678
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 3: oh my god, it's the cat from the woman yelling

679
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 3: at cat meme, just a chaotic, confused gobblin spirit in

680
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,040
Speaker 3: the most fundamentally feline way possible.

681
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: No, this is this is solid.

682
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 3: Yes.

683
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: And in fact, after you mentioned this, I was like,

684
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 2: I wonder, I wonder if anyone has transformed this, given

685
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: the popularity of all that meme. And sure enough I

686
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 2: found somebody on Etsy who has created like a like

687
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: a traditional looking Japanese two panel image all of the

688
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 2: encounter where you have it's where you have the there's

689
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 2: the there're the two women, one is yelling, and then

690
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: there is the cat seated at a table behind this

691
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,880
Speaker 2: plate with some vegetables on it. And you know, I

692
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: think it is almost impossible to consider many of these

693
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 2: classic Japanese cat illustrations without comparing them to cat memes,

694
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 2: in large part because the images are so good at

695
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: capturing the essence of the cat. Yeah, I mean, the

696
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: memes do. I mean. One of the reasons that meme

697
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 2: has resonated so strongly is that, yeah, I mean that

698
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,560
Speaker 2: the cat part of it feels very on brand. And

699
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: you see this in some of the older illustrations of

700
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 2: cats in Japan as well. There's a great nineteenth century

701
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: illustration of cats in various positions by Utagawa Kunayoshi, And

702
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: this one is worth looking up because it features I

703
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 2: found mostly naturalistic depictions of cats, and they're like, you know,

704
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: at least a few dozen of these, But then there

705
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,799
Speaker 2: are also some unnatural or even supernatural ones as well.

706
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:44,240
Speaker 2: Like if you look around closely at this Joe included

707
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 2: it for you, you'll see one cat with a towel on

708
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 2: its head with kind of like zombie arms up. There

709
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,440
Speaker 2: are some other cats that are doing things of that nature.

710
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: And then also cats just doing normal cat things.

711
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 3: Yep, just like snoozing in a basket, sleeping, chewing on

712
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,439
Speaker 3: a dead squid. Is that what I'm looking at?

713
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, dragging a big dead squid that one like the

714
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: squid is so big there, it makes me me wonder.

715
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, and then other you just see cats interacting

716
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:16,280
Speaker 2: with each other, and of course cats as a loaf

717
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: with their their legs tucked in underneath them, curled up

718
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:24,160
Speaker 2: in a circle, you know, all the various forms of

719
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 2: the cat that we're accustomed to. You know, we're novel then,

720
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:39,520
Speaker 2: just as their novel. Now, all right, I have one

721
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 2: more area concerning the back of the echo. I want

722
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 2: to touch on here though, just in the event that

723
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,879
Speaker 2: you're listening with small children, maybe maybe skip this part

724
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 2: and come back later, just just because it is maybe

725
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 2: a little more mature and themed compared to what we've

726
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: discussed so far. So fair warning. Okay, now that you've

727
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: had a chance to leave, I want to just add

728
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: a word about beakaniko prostitutes. So during the this is

729
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: covered in Davison. During the Edo period, kiboshi or yellow

730
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 2: books sprang up as a kind of he describes as

731
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,839
Speaker 2: kind of like a penny dreadful literary genre of the day.

732
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 2: You know, this is literature that is just appealing to

733
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 2: to very base interests. And they included these guide books

734
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 2: to the pleasure districts in these guide books included mentions

735
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:33,800
Speaker 2: of actual places, actual people, but also in human entities

736
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 2: one might encounter, namely back in Eko prostitutes. They would

737
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 2: otherwise just look like a normal human prostitute, but their

738
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,360
Speaker 2: shadow would eventually give them away as a shape shifting cat.

739
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 2: Coming back to perhaps to that idea of the strange

740
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,280
Speaker 2: cat reaching up towards the lamplight. Now, a major inspiration

741
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:58,760
Speaker 2: for this idea, he writes, was an Edo period tale

742
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 2: of such a being working in a particular district, and

743
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 2: it's soon caught on in written. In visual storytelling, eventually,

744
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: and eventually you have various embellishments that are made either

745
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 2: for telling a good story or for creating a compelling image.

746
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 2: One of these is that there may be discarded fish

747
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 2: around the bedroom, or even a discarded human arm, because

748
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: again it is not a human being, it is a

749
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 2: cat monster that is consuming human victims. Now, initially this

750
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:31,400
Speaker 2: is just a tale of horror, you know, kind of

751
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 2: a watch out for the monsters in disguise out there

752
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 2: in the shadowy world at night. But Davidson rise that

753
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:41,439
Speaker 2: it eventually becomes this kind of fun visual fad. There's

754
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: an eighteenth century illustration that he shares in the book

755
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 2: of a samurai walking hand in hand with one of

756
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 2: these beck in Niko, but it has a cat's head.

757
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 2: It just looks like it's like a full furry in

758
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 2: this illustration, and they're just kind of like, Okay, we're

759
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: out in the open with this. Now I I have

760
00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,960
Speaker 2: a relationship with a cat woman, and it's it's a okay.

761
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: He also writes that this idea was even eventually embraced

762
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 2: by by women working in the pleasure districts, so accentuating

763
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: their names or and or keeping a cat in order

764
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: to play up the idea that they might be something

765
00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 2: other than human.

766
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: Oh so like playing with these cat themes for fun,

767
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,399
Speaker 3: or that there was some kind of power in it.

768
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 2: Man, I'm guessing both, you know. It sounds like it

769
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,200
Speaker 2: could be both. On one hand, yeah, like superstition becoming

770
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 2: fetish after a while, But also, yeah, there is this

771
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: idea of the the bachan echo woman is this vengeful thing,

772
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 2: this thing that will, you know, to destroy these these men,

773
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 2: And so you could see it being embraced on that

774
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,799
Speaker 2: level as well. Now, Davison doesn't go into that so much,

775
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: but mentions that some commentators have tried to establish a

776
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 2: connection here between the folk tale and a general prohibition

777
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: at the time against courtisans eating in the print in

778
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,760
Speaker 2: the presence of men eating in the presence of their clients,

779
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,120
Speaker 2: in this case, forcing them to sneak snacks in a

780
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:13,720
Speaker 2: hunched over cat like posture. I'm I don't know, maybe

781
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: this is true. I don't know. I have a hard

782
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: time sort of buying into this in my own mind.

783
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 2: But but he mentioned it, so I think a number

784
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: of commentators have made this this connection and then a

785
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,000
Speaker 2: broader connection, he says, you can looking in the other direction,

786
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 2: moving forward towards modern times, there's like a general catgirl

787
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: trope in Japanese pop culture of today that is, you know,

788
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: not directly related to these examples, but like you just

789
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: see like this idea of the cat human hybrid, the

790
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 2: the the the female cat person as being this this

791
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 2: motif that is echoed throughout throughout the decades and throughout

792
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: different forms of media, and for that matter, one that

793
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 2: we find throughout the world as well. I mean, like,

794
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 2: as far as I know, Catwoman from the Batman franchise

795
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: is not directly connected to any motifs from say Japanese culture.

796
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: There is perhaps just some connection to be made between

797
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 2: I don't know, stereotypical images of the feminine form and

798
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 2: the cat. I don't know. I'm sure there's someone who's

799
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: written extensively on this from a larger global perspective.

800
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well in a Western context. I mean, I

801
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:29,840
Speaker 3: think the classic nineteen forty two American horror movie Cat People,

802
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 3: which it has a catwoman in it and is used

803
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: to great spooky effect.

804
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: I didn't see that one. I think. I think when

805
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,960
Speaker 2: the movie man came around, the movie man said, Hey,

806
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 2: would you like to see cat People or would you

807
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: like to see Sleepwalkers from nineteen ninety two from the

808
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: mind of Stephen King, And I said, oh, I like

809
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: Stephen King, Let's watch Sleepwalkers, which has cats in it.

810
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 2: I don't remember if the monster people are also cat people, that.

811
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 3: They're sort of cat people. It is a movie about

812
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 3: a I think, sort of incestuous mother son monster couple

813
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 3: who can sort of morph into cats and have cat

814
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 3: powers and can I think, turn invisible and have super strength,

815
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 3: and they go around, I don't know, like drinking young

816
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 3: women's souls or something, and the only way they can

817
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 3: be defeated is by house cats like cats, chase them

818
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 3: around and if they get if the cats get to them,

819
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: the cats can defeat them, but nothing else can.

820
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: Yep, that's about how I remember it. Yeah, I haven't

821
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: seen it in forever though it has a great cast,

822
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:40,919
Speaker 2: solid director too.

823
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 3: Somebody in it gets murdered with a corn cob. I

824
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 3: think maybe Ron Pearlman gets stabbed with a corn cob.

825
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 3: Oh man, I do not remember that part. Maybe it's

826
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 3: a different guy who gets corn cobbed. I don't know.

827
00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just did a search for Ron Pearlman corn

828
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: cob death scene and nothing came up. So maybe it

829
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: just hasn't been embraced online.

830
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 3: And I know somebody gets killed with the corn cob.

831
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: I'm not making that up. Listeners who have seen Sleepwalkers

832
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 3: recently right in improved me right.

833
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: All right, And as we close out this episode it's

834
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: in general right in. If you have insight and additions

835
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 2: on anything we've discussed here, we would love to hear

836
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 2: from you.

837
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,919
Speaker 3: But we will be back with more in part two.

838
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:27,040
Speaker 2: That's right now. Before we close out here, I do

839
00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: have a couple of extra matters to highlight. If you're

840
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,560
Speaker 2: on social media, you might have noticed that We have

841
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: new host photos for Stuff to Blow your Mind if

842
00:48:37,239 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 2: you haven't seen them, run by our recently revived social

843
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 2: media presences all linked off of Stuff to Blow Yourmind

844
00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 2: dot com. We are STBYM podcast on Instagram now and

845
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,560
Speaker 2: you can check out these new photos if you're wondering

846
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 2: where were these photos taken? Well, Joe and I visited

847
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 2: the Museum of Illusions Atlanta, a delightful and educational attraction

848
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: located in Atlantic Station here in Atlanta. They feature a

849
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: whole host of visual illusions, including illusion rooms you can

850
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: walk into and interact with, and that includes taking your

851
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 2: own selfies there. Joe, do you remember that room we

852
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 2: went into where depending on where you stood, we could

853
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: change how big you looked and how small I looked

854
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 2: on the on the screen.

855
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it's a great place to play. I'm the

856
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 3: big one now to just take turns going from corner

857
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: to corner. And yeah, this place is a lot of fun.

858
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,840
Speaker 3: They've got They've got a ton of great illusions to showcase.

859
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 3: I'm really excited about taking the baby.

860
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,879
Speaker 2: That's right. Fun for all ages and you can learn

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Speaker 2: more about Museum of Illusions Atlanta at m OI Atlanta

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00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 2: dot com. Also, hey, it's like we've been hitting here.

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Speaker 2: It's Halloween season. If you are looking to pick up

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Speaker 2: some Stuff to Blow your Mind merchandise, well, we have

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Speaker 2: a new shirt available for the Halloween season. It's our

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00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 2: occult Stuff to Blow Your Mind logo shirt. You can

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Speaker 2: find that over It's Stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com.

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Speaker 2: You can click on the store tab there. You'll also

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Speaker 2: find images of this shirt and links on our social media.

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Speaker 2: Just a reminder to everyone out there that Stuff to

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Speaker 2: Blow Your Mind is primarily a science podcast, with core

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00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 2: episodes publishing on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Mondays we do

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00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:16,359
Speaker 2: a listener mail episode. On Wednesdays we usually do a

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00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,040
Speaker 2: monster fact or artifact episode that's short form, and then

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00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 2: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

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Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway. If

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Speaker 3: you would like to get in touch with us with

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00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 3: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

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00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 3: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

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00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 3: can email us at contact at Stuff to Blow your

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Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.