1 00:00:15,304 --> 00:00:23,224 Speaker 1: Pushkin. My favorite holiday of the year is about to happen. 2 00:00:23,944 --> 00:00:27,984 Speaker 1: June sixteenth is Bloomsday, the day when James Joyce's novel 3 00:00:28,064 --> 00:00:31,784 Speaker 1: Ulysses takes place in nineteen oh four. The book's famously 4 00:00:31,904 --> 00:00:35,464 Speaker 1: long and confusing, and at the time it was considered 5 00:00:35,664 --> 00:00:40,584 Speaker 1: shockingly sexually explicit. It follows this guy named Leopold Bloom 6 00:00:40,744 --> 00:00:43,544 Speaker 1: throughout the course of one ordinary day in which he 7 00:00:43,624 --> 00:00:46,384 Speaker 1: tries to win back his wife. I love the book 8 00:00:46,424 --> 00:00:48,664 Speaker 1: so much that one year I flew to Dublin and 9 00:00:48,744 --> 00:00:51,704 Speaker 1: joined hundreds of people as we retraced the main character's 10 00:00:51,744 --> 00:00:54,984 Speaker 1: steps around the city. I went to davy Byrne's pub, 11 00:00:55,024 --> 00:00:59,144 Speaker 1: which is still there, and drank burgundy and ate Gorganzola sandwiches. 12 00:00:59,944 --> 00:01:03,184 Speaker 1: I drank guinness in well a lot of places. As 13 00:01:03,224 --> 00:01:06,824 Speaker 1: women dressed in early twentieth century costumes walked by, I 14 00:01:06,864 --> 00:01:11,104 Speaker 1: felt what other people must feel it, only I felt 15 00:01:11,304 --> 00:01:21,464 Speaker 1: much much smarter writing his heart. Who's got that kind 16 00:01:21,464 --> 00:01:22,944 Speaker 1: of time when you're. 17 00:01:22,744 --> 00:01:26,344 Speaker 2: Already busy trying to be joll stined, So it turns 18 00:01:26,384 --> 00:01:26,984 Speaker 2: on a mic. 19 00:01:27,304 --> 00:01:30,984 Speaker 1: Maybe the twidles enough because a journalist trand has got 20 00:01:30,984 --> 00:01:36,344 Speaker 1: in that you tidies single story just listen to smart 21 00:01:36,344 --> 00:01:42,864 Speaker 1: people speak, conversation, film and information is the story of 22 00:01:43,384 --> 00:01:57,064 Speaker 1: the week. Ten years after he achieved stratospheric and very 23 00:01:57,144 --> 00:02:02,624 Speaker 1: unlikely fame, the world's greatest Ulysses scholar disappeared. Jack hit 24 00:02:02,744 --> 00:02:05,904 Speaker 1: went on that quest to find out if he was dead, alive, 25 00:02:06,584 --> 00:02:10,024 Speaker 1: or insane. Thank you for doing. I'm a big fan. 26 00:02:10,264 --> 00:02:13,824 Speaker 1: When did you first read Ulysses in college? 27 00:02:14,104 --> 00:02:16,904 Speaker 2: You know, I took I was a comp lit major, 28 00:02:17,184 --> 00:02:19,704 Speaker 2: and it was at a time when if you were 29 00:02:19,704 --> 00:02:21,824 Speaker 2: a lit major or just kind of anyone interested in 30 00:02:21,864 --> 00:02:24,904 Speaker 2: writing or reading at the time, you know, you kind 31 00:02:24,904 --> 00:02:27,424 Speaker 2: of had to select your big book. In those days, 32 00:02:27,784 --> 00:02:32,104 Speaker 2: there was a kind of wonderful pomposity to carrying around 33 00:02:32,144 --> 00:02:33,544 Speaker 2: your big book in college. 34 00:02:33,624 --> 00:02:36,344 Speaker 1: Well, okay, I carried around my big book in college. 35 00:02:36,584 --> 00:02:37,704 Speaker 1: What was it? It was Ulysses? 36 00:02:38,384 --> 00:02:42,184 Speaker 2: Just very quickly. You know, when Joyce wrote this book, 37 00:02:42,584 --> 00:02:44,264 Speaker 2: he wrote it over a period of seven years. He 38 00:02:44,304 --> 00:02:47,144 Speaker 2: wrote it on scraps of paper. He published parts of it, 39 00:02:47,344 --> 00:02:49,624 Speaker 2: and then edited the parts that had been published and 40 00:02:49,664 --> 00:02:52,784 Speaker 2: then rewrote them again. So what happens is is that 41 00:02:52,904 --> 00:02:57,544 Speaker 2: over time, a lot of editors have argued, well, there 42 00:02:57,664 --> 00:03:01,584 Speaker 2: is this one perfect kind of Ulysses that hasn't been 43 00:03:01,624 --> 00:03:05,144 Speaker 2: published yet. There's all this controversies that what's the exact text, 44 00:03:05,184 --> 00:03:08,344 Speaker 2: because it clearly comes into existence as a kind of 45 00:03:08,384 --> 00:03:08,984 Speaker 2: hot mess. 46 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:13,584 Speaker 1: And this amazing story is about this Ulysses scholar named 47 00:03:13,704 --> 00:03:17,264 Speaker 1: John Kidd, who was on track to create the definitive 48 00:03:17,824 --> 00:03:20,944 Speaker 1: edition of the book but then disappeared. Okay, so before 49 00:03:20,944 --> 00:03:23,424 Speaker 1: we get to the mystery, actually, can you just read 50 00:03:23,464 --> 00:03:25,784 Speaker 1: the beginning of your piece because it sets it up 51 00:03:25,824 --> 00:03:27,184 Speaker 1: so well. 52 00:03:27,384 --> 00:03:30,184 Speaker 2: John Kidd's early life is like a Wes Anderson newsreel 53 00:03:30,184 --> 00:03:35,104 Speaker 2: of an American upbringing extraordinary and crackpot bending towards fabulousm 54 00:03:35,904 --> 00:03:38,104 Speaker 2: He grew up with a brother of the same name, 55 00:03:38,424 --> 00:03:43,024 Speaker 2: just without the h. John John and John Jo n 56 00:03:43,624 --> 00:03:47,584 Speaker 2: were the sons of Captain John William Kidd, a naval 57 00:03:47,624 --> 00:03:52,024 Speaker 2: officer known to the sailors on board as Starbuck. So 58 00:03:52,064 --> 00:03:55,744 Speaker 2: I mean you practically have an American mythic figure sort 59 00:03:55,744 --> 00:03:58,664 Speaker 2: of emerging to become the kind of great Joyce scholar 60 00:03:58,704 --> 00:03:59,264 Speaker 2: of this time. 61 00:03:59,784 --> 00:04:02,064 Speaker 1: And he didn't go to college right. 62 00:04:02,784 --> 00:04:05,544 Speaker 2: Right he started, you know, he read Ulysses I think 63 00:04:05,584 --> 00:04:09,024 Speaker 2: in high school and just became obsessed with it. 64 00:04:09,464 --> 00:04:12,144 Speaker 1: So then he without going to undergrad. He gets himself 65 00:04:12,144 --> 00:04:16,144 Speaker 1: in grad school, which is pretty crazy and impressive, right, 66 00:04:16,544 --> 00:04:19,384 Speaker 1: and he gets his PhD and then goes back to 67 00:04:19,544 --> 00:04:23,984 Speaker 1: just reading himself. Right, he doesn't go on to teach, right, Okay, 68 00:04:24,064 --> 00:04:26,984 Speaker 1: so how does he become this famous Ulysses scholar? 69 00:04:27,424 --> 00:04:32,024 Speaker 2: In the late eighties, it came out that this brilliant 70 00:04:32,184 --> 00:04:37,424 Speaker 2: German scholar, Hans Gobbler, had spent you know, most of 71 00:04:37,424 --> 00:04:41,624 Speaker 2: his professional career going through all of the versions of Ulysses, 72 00:04:41,744 --> 00:04:44,104 Speaker 2: all the notes and pieces of paper that Joyce had 73 00:04:44,104 --> 00:04:46,544 Speaker 2: written on it was going to annotate the whole thing, 74 00:04:46,704 --> 00:04:49,504 Speaker 2: which I have a copy of. It's three volumes, and 75 00:04:49,624 --> 00:04:55,264 Speaker 2: show you how he created the one definitive, error free Ulysses. 76 00:04:56,104 --> 00:04:58,664 Speaker 1: So I in nineteen ninety three when I read Ulysses, 77 00:04:58,784 --> 00:05:01,864 Speaker 1: I read the Gabbler edition, and as far as my 78 00:05:02,264 --> 00:05:05,144 Speaker 1: brain knows, that is the only one I can buy, 79 00:05:05,264 --> 00:05:08,784 Speaker 1: that is the official Ulysses. It's clear to me that like, 80 00:05:09,144 --> 00:05:10,024 Speaker 1: this is my only option. 81 00:05:10,384 --> 00:05:13,704 Speaker 2: Right, And as that was coming out, as it was 82 00:05:13,744 --> 00:05:20,744 Speaker 2: being published, suddenly the self taught autodidak Joyce critic John 83 00:05:20,904 --> 00:05:24,304 Speaker 2: Kidd appears in the New York Review of Books. 84 00:05:24,584 --> 00:05:28,184 Speaker 1: Yeah, somehow kid gets published in the New York Review 85 00:05:28,224 --> 00:05:31,784 Speaker 1: of Books, and he's critiquing Gobbler's edition of Ulysses, this 86 00:05:31,824 --> 00:05:35,024 Speaker 1: new edition. But it's more than just a critique, right. 87 00:05:35,584 --> 00:05:40,904 Speaker 2: It's just this scathing attack of Gobbler's methods and of 88 00:05:40,944 --> 00:05:44,184 Speaker 2: his edits and all of the things he was doing. 89 00:05:44,584 --> 00:05:46,224 Speaker 2: And this is where I come into the story. 90 00:05:46,344 --> 00:05:46,624 Speaker 1: Okay. 91 00:05:46,784 --> 00:05:50,624 Speaker 2: I remember I had just joined the staff of Harper's 92 00:05:50,664 --> 00:05:55,064 Speaker 2: magazine as an editor, and I remember sitting down to 93 00:05:55,104 --> 00:05:58,424 Speaker 2: read this piece and it was the most amazing piece 94 00:05:58,424 --> 00:06:01,984 Speaker 2: of writing for so many reasons. One is that had 95 00:06:02,024 --> 00:06:07,504 Speaker 2: this cocky, sort of kind of like Twitter tone to 96 00:06:07,664 --> 00:06:10,144 Speaker 2: his criticism, which is something you never saw in the 97 00:06:10,144 --> 00:06:13,784 Speaker 2: New York Review Books. He was being flip in all 98 00:06:13,864 --> 00:06:18,024 Speaker 2: kinds of ways. I remember he dismissed the entire Gobbler effort. 99 00:06:18,064 --> 00:06:21,344 Speaker 2: He said that the corrected text by Gobbler is quote 100 00:06:21,664 --> 00:06:26,344 Speaker 2: marbled with the fat of such pseudo restorations from shoulder 101 00:06:26,424 --> 00:06:29,984 Speaker 2: to shank. You know, he just didn't read sentences like that. 102 00:06:30,104 --> 00:06:32,784 Speaker 2: Or another time he's just being playful where he caught 103 00:06:32,824 --> 00:06:36,864 Speaker 2: Gobbler at some tiny mistake and he wrote, irony abounds, 104 00:06:37,144 --> 00:06:41,504 Speaker 2: What redounds to doctor Kidd rebounds on several grounds, it 105 00:06:41,624 --> 00:06:44,944 Speaker 2: sounds he's out of bounds. So he's just I mean, 106 00:06:44,944 --> 00:06:48,264 Speaker 2: he just sounds like this kind of drunk poet, you know. 107 00:06:48,384 --> 00:06:50,464 Speaker 2: Writing in the New York Review of Books, it was 108 00:06:50,464 --> 00:06:51,744 Speaker 2: impossible not to read. 109 00:06:52,184 --> 00:06:54,824 Speaker 1: What I love about it is it reads like an 110 00:06:54,824 --> 00:06:59,344 Speaker 1: onion piece because he is so pissed off about the tiniest, 111 00:06:59,384 --> 00:07:02,704 Speaker 1: most inconsequential things you can imagine correct or. 112 00:07:02,744 --> 00:07:05,584 Speaker 2: Another one that's famous is the big black dot. 113 00:07:06,144 --> 00:07:08,864 Speaker 1: You're talking about this big black dot that's in some 114 00:07:09,224 --> 00:07:10,104 Speaker 1: editions of Ulysses. 115 00:07:10,384 --> 00:07:12,504 Speaker 2: Right, So let me just back up and tell you 116 00:07:12,544 --> 00:07:14,424 Speaker 2: what this is. So at the at the end of 117 00:07:14,464 --> 00:07:16,624 Speaker 2: a long chapter that's done in sort of Q and A, 118 00:07:16,664 --> 00:07:19,224 Speaker 2: it's almost like a legal deposition. It's a parody of 119 00:07:19,344 --> 00:07:22,104 Speaker 2: kind of like an inquisitor. It's pretty funny, right, And 120 00:07:22,144 --> 00:07:24,544 Speaker 2: it's pretty funny. I mean, it's very specific and it's 121 00:07:24,584 --> 00:07:26,984 Speaker 2: cracking jokes the whole time. It's supposed to it may 122 00:07:27,064 --> 00:07:29,424 Speaker 2: or may not be God himself, you know, sort of 123 00:07:29,624 --> 00:07:33,264 Speaker 2: quizzing the events of June sixteenth. 124 00:07:32,824 --> 00:07:36,224 Speaker 1: Of a drunk bloom, Yeah, right, Bloom being leopol Bloom, 125 00:07:36,264 --> 00:07:37,624 Speaker 1: the main character of right. 126 00:07:37,784 --> 00:07:41,784 Speaker 2: Yes, So at the very end, I mean, the inquisitor 127 00:07:41,904 --> 00:07:47,504 Speaker 2: is getting so annoyed with the answers, you know, ostensibly blooms, 128 00:07:48,024 --> 00:07:51,544 Speaker 2: you know, annoying little answers that at the end there's 129 00:07:51,584 --> 00:07:53,664 Speaker 2: a question, and then there's just this big black dot. 130 00:07:53,784 --> 00:07:55,664 Speaker 2: In the addition I had it was probably the size 131 00:07:55,664 --> 00:07:59,544 Speaker 2: of the head of a nail, so you know, considerable 132 00:07:59,624 --> 00:08:02,624 Speaker 2: when you talk about ink on a page. And then 133 00:08:02,664 --> 00:08:05,184 Speaker 2: in all these other editions it was not there at all, 134 00:08:05,344 --> 00:08:07,504 Speaker 2: or it was just a regular period or a slightly 135 00:08:07,504 --> 00:08:10,784 Speaker 2: bigger period, and God publishes it simply as a period. 136 00:08:11,624 --> 00:08:16,744 Speaker 2: Kid loses his mind in this essay because to many 137 00:08:17,224 --> 00:08:21,264 Speaker 2: readers right and scholars over time, that big black dot 138 00:08:21,384 --> 00:08:25,784 Speaker 2: might be the earth as seen from God's perspective, or 139 00:08:25,824 --> 00:08:30,424 Speaker 2: it might be Bloom's open mouth now that he's kind 140 00:08:30,424 --> 00:08:32,944 Speaker 2: of fallen asleep. That's what most people assume. That's what 141 00:08:33,064 --> 00:08:35,584 Speaker 2: ends the chapter, is that Bloom is just finally knotted 142 00:08:35,624 --> 00:08:36,624 Speaker 2: off and is snoring. 143 00:08:36,824 --> 00:08:37,104 Speaker 1: Right. 144 00:08:37,264 --> 00:08:39,224 Speaker 2: Some people thought it was an egg or a portal 145 00:08:39,264 --> 00:08:41,744 Speaker 2: to another dimension, or Molly Bloom's anus. 146 00:08:41,584 --> 00:08:43,784 Speaker 1: Ye, Molly Bloom being Leopold's wife. 147 00:08:43,624 --> 00:08:47,184 Speaker 2: Right, And so there are many interpretations of what that 148 00:08:47,224 --> 00:08:49,264 Speaker 2: dot is, but the most important thing is is that 149 00:08:49,344 --> 00:08:52,624 Speaker 2: it's a it's an outsized dot. That's what Kid is 150 00:08:52,664 --> 00:08:57,024 Speaker 2: pointing out. And so that controversy erupted. And so you know, 151 00:08:57,064 --> 00:09:00,264 Speaker 2: when you're reading this thing, if you if you've read Joyce, 152 00:09:00,664 --> 00:09:02,624 Speaker 2: you realize that, of course, on the one hand, none 153 00:09:02,664 --> 00:09:04,584 Speaker 2: of this matters, but on the other hand, it is 154 00:09:04,624 --> 00:09:08,144 Speaker 2: a book about how everything tiny does matter. 155 00:09:08,344 --> 00:09:11,824 Speaker 1: But this New York Review of Books article leads to 156 00:09:11,864 --> 00:09:14,344 Speaker 1: a rebuttal from Gabler. Yes, and then of course Kid 157 00:09:14,344 --> 00:09:17,144 Speaker 1: has to write back. But then the amount of people 158 00:09:17,664 --> 00:09:20,744 Speaker 1: who get involved in what seems like a picky, un 159 00:09:21,544 --> 00:09:25,784 Speaker 1: you know, academic fight is crazy, like Updike, John Updike 160 00:09:25,824 --> 00:09:29,304 Speaker 1: gets involved. David Remnick, who's the longtime editor now with 161 00:09:29,304 --> 00:09:32,104 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, writes an article about it, right, like, 162 00:09:32,584 --> 00:09:34,064 Speaker 1: people get sucked into this fight. 163 00:09:34,664 --> 00:09:38,624 Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely, because it was impossible not to. I closed 164 00:09:38,624 --> 00:09:40,304 Speaker 2: the door and lit a cigarette I used to smoke 165 00:09:40,344 --> 00:09:42,424 Speaker 2: in those days, and step back and just went wild 166 00:09:42,464 --> 00:09:43,024 Speaker 2: reading this thing. 167 00:09:43,064 --> 00:09:43,864 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe it. 168 00:09:44,184 --> 00:09:46,264 Speaker 2: And so the next issue, yes, there's a letter from 169 00:09:46,344 --> 00:09:50,584 Speaker 2: John Updike, who has gotten hold of Gabbler's addition and 170 00:09:50,704 --> 00:09:56,264 Speaker 2: sees that like he has these completely unconventional paragraph indentations, 171 00:09:56,304 --> 00:09:58,784 Speaker 2: which as far as he's concerned, is like putting a 172 00:09:58,864 --> 00:10:01,864 Speaker 2: mustache on the Mona Lisa, and he is just fuming 173 00:10:01,944 --> 00:10:05,944 Speaker 2: with rage in this letter. You know, it's just impossible 174 00:10:06,224 --> 00:10:09,064 Speaker 2: not to get into the mood of the thing. Everybody 175 00:10:09,144 --> 00:10:14,104 Speaker 2: suddenly became these kind of kid like experts on minutia 176 00:10:14,504 --> 00:10:15,704 Speaker 2: of Joyce's ulysses. 177 00:10:15,984 --> 00:10:19,784 Speaker 1: And the framing of this fight is there's a dour 178 00:10:20,144 --> 00:10:27,184 Speaker 1: academic German versus an upstart American named John Kidd. 179 00:10:27,344 --> 00:10:30,504 Speaker 2: Like it's a very clear fight. Almost everybody came to 180 00:10:30,584 --> 00:10:34,824 Speaker 2: Kid's side. What happens is, essentially John Kidd establishes himself 181 00:10:35,184 --> 00:10:41,704 Speaker 2: as the most revolutionary, badass, rebel Joycean critic on the planet. 182 00:10:42,224 --> 00:10:45,144 Speaker 1: And then because of this controversy, he gets scooped up 183 00:10:45,224 --> 00:10:50,104 Speaker 1: by Boston University and they give him like a bunch 184 00:10:50,104 --> 00:10:53,304 Speaker 1: of resources to work on his definitive version of ulysses. Right. 185 00:10:53,864 --> 00:10:56,744 Speaker 2: Oh, money pours in from all kinds of locations, and 186 00:10:56,904 --> 00:11:00,104 Speaker 2: basically what happens is this guy who didn't go to 187 00:11:00,144 --> 00:11:05,544 Speaker 2: college gets plucked out of this controversy to Boston University 188 00:11:05,584 --> 00:11:08,544 Speaker 2: and he's he has this thing called the James Joyce 189 00:11:08,624 --> 00:11:13,064 Speaker 2: Research Center, which is entire suite of offices completely funded 190 00:11:13,264 --> 00:11:16,744 Speaker 2: for him, right, So all these other professors of English 191 00:11:16,744 --> 00:11:21,584 Speaker 2: there are certainly jealous beyond all description. This guy's in 192 00:11:21,624 --> 00:11:24,064 Speaker 2: his twenties. You know, he hasn't worked his way up 193 00:11:24,064 --> 00:11:27,784 Speaker 2: from assistant to associate professor to tenured full No. No, 194 00:11:27,904 --> 00:11:31,784 Speaker 2: he's just leapfrogged everything and become the world's greatest choice 195 00:11:31,784 --> 00:11:34,864 Speaker 2: scholar with his own research center and a bevy of 196 00:11:34,944 --> 00:11:40,184 Speaker 2: research assistants out to publish the competition to Gobbler's edition, 197 00:11:40,424 --> 00:11:45,304 Speaker 2: the real solid, absolutely pure Joyce's Ulysses. 198 00:11:45,544 --> 00:11:48,304 Speaker 1: And so in addition to all the money coming into 199 00:11:48,664 --> 00:11:51,144 Speaker 1: Boston University for him to work on this, he's also 200 00:11:51,184 --> 00:11:52,984 Speaker 1: got a publishing deal. He's supposed to come out with 201 00:11:53,464 --> 00:11:58,024 Speaker 1: his version of Ulysses to compete with the Gabbler one exactly. 202 00:11:58,104 --> 00:12:00,984 Speaker 2: So he got like a three hundred and fifty thousand 203 00:12:01,064 --> 00:12:04,104 Speaker 2: dollars advance. I mean, that's what best selling authors got, 204 00:12:04,344 --> 00:12:06,584 Speaker 2: you know, if they were lucky at the time. And 205 00:12:06,664 --> 00:12:09,224 Speaker 2: I remember I called him at the time. I was 206 00:12:09,264 --> 00:12:12,144 Speaker 2: an editor at Harper's. He and I had several conversations, 207 00:12:12,584 --> 00:12:15,504 Speaker 2: and the hope was that at that point the Internet 208 00:12:15,584 --> 00:12:18,304 Speaker 2: was very, very young, but there was this creaky sort 209 00:12:18,304 --> 00:12:21,144 Speaker 2: of technology known as c d ram And so the 210 00:12:21,224 --> 00:12:23,184 Speaker 2: idea was that all those books you just held up 211 00:12:23,224 --> 00:12:25,864 Speaker 2: the annotated ulysses and all that the idea was is 212 00:12:25,864 --> 00:12:28,664 Speaker 2: that he would Kid was going to create this electronic 213 00:12:28,784 --> 00:12:31,424 Speaker 2: version of Ulysses where you could just touch each word 214 00:12:31,624 --> 00:12:33,344 Speaker 2: and it would give you the whole history of that. 215 00:12:33,344 --> 00:12:34,864 Speaker 1: That must exist now, right. 216 00:12:35,144 --> 00:12:37,504 Speaker 2: Yes, that does exist now, yeah you can. You can 217 00:12:37,544 --> 00:12:39,944 Speaker 2: definitely go online now and find versions of this. But 218 00:12:39,984 --> 00:12:43,184 Speaker 2: you know, in nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine, ninety, when 219 00:12:43,184 --> 00:12:45,344 Speaker 2: this whole thing was a great idea, Yeah, it was 220 00:12:45,424 --> 00:12:48,224 Speaker 2: just an incredible idea, and it was like the perfect 221 00:12:48,344 --> 00:12:51,024 Speaker 2: use of what was then emerging as the Internet. Oh 222 00:12:51,064 --> 00:12:54,344 Speaker 2: you are so excited. I'm sure, I'm thrilled. And then, 223 00:12:54,384 --> 00:12:56,304 Speaker 2: you know, one thing leads to another. I have a life. 224 00:12:56,424 --> 00:12:59,024 Speaker 2: You know, eventually, by ninety two, I step away from 225 00:12:59,064 --> 00:13:01,824 Speaker 2: Harper's to write a book, and you know, I forget 226 00:13:01,824 --> 00:13:03,024 Speaker 2: all about John Kid. 227 00:13:03,144 --> 00:13:04,744 Speaker 1: And meanwhile, his book has never come. 228 00:13:04,584 --> 00:13:07,424 Speaker 2: Out, never come out, and you never I never hear 229 00:13:07,464 --> 00:13:08,624 Speaker 2: anything more about. 230 00:13:08,384 --> 00:13:10,424 Speaker 1: It, which is we because he had a publishing deal 231 00:13:10,544 --> 00:13:13,424 Speaker 1: and a group that be you working on this and 232 00:13:13,664 --> 00:13:16,104 Speaker 1: the book never comes out. Okay, So then what happens. 233 00:13:16,264 --> 00:13:18,904 Speaker 2: Ten or fifteen years go by, and I'm up visiting 234 00:13:18,944 --> 00:13:21,224 Speaker 2: somebody in Boston, and I just happened to pick up 235 00:13:21,264 --> 00:13:24,664 Speaker 2: the paper and there's like an item in the paper 236 00:13:26,344 --> 00:13:30,224 Speaker 2: about John Kitt and how he's kind of gone insane. 237 00:13:31,504 --> 00:13:34,424 Speaker 2: He doesn't really teach anymore. He kind of hangs out 238 00:13:34,424 --> 00:13:39,664 Speaker 2: at the statue near the Boston University campus. He's feeding 239 00:13:39,704 --> 00:13:43,144 Speaker 2: the pigeons, He's given them names. He kind of talks 240 00:13:43,144 --> 00:13:45,464 Speaker 2: to them all day long. And this is this picture 241 00:13:46,064 --> 00:13:48,904 Speaker 2: with this kind of haunted figure in a long overcoat. 242 00:13:50,344 --> 00:13:52,864 Speaker 2: And that's all it says is that, you know, the 243 00:13:52,904 --> 00:13:55,584 Speaker 2: greatest Choice scholar has kind of gone mad. 244 00:13:57,144 --> 00:13:59,904 Speaker 1: When we get back, Jack Hit decides to find out 245 00:13:59,904 --> 00:14:03,424 Speaker 1: what happened. It's the world's greatest joy Scholar. But first, 246 00:14:03,544 --> 00:14:05,784 Speaker 1: our advertisers are going to sell you a bar of 247 00:14:05,944 --> 00:14:08,624 Speaker 1: lemon scented soap that jumps from one of your pockets 248 00:14:08,624 --> 00:14:11,984 Speaker 1: to another. That's a really solid joke if you've regulous sees. 249 00:14:17,664 --> 00:14:21,144 Speaker 1: Reporter Jack Hitt couldn't stop thinking about the world famous 250 00:14:21,224 --> 00:14:23,904 Speaker 1: Joyce scholar who had never gotten back to him about 251 00:14:23,904 --> 00:14:25,224 Speaker 1: that cd ROM project. 252 00:14:25,904 --> 00:14:27,744 Speaker 2: So I read that he had become a kind of 253 00:14:27,784 --> 00:14:31,944 Speaker 2: homeless person. And then After that, I never read another 254 00:14:31,984 --> 00:14:35,104 Speaker 2: thing about him, and so I thought, well, what happened 255 00:14:35,104 --> 00:14:38,864 Speaker 2: to him? I had read about another Joyce scholar who 256 00:14:38,944 --> 00:14:42,544 Speaker 2: had lost his mind trying to deal with all the 257 00:14:42,624 --> 00:14:45,624 Speaker 2: joycey ona. And you know, Joyce has this famous line 258 00:14:45,624 --> 00:14:48,664 Speaker 2: where he says, you know, he expects his work to 259 00:14:48,784 --> 00:14:51,264 Speaker 2: keep you know, scholars busy for the next three hundred 260 00:14:51,304 --> 00:14:56,024 Speaker 2: years or something, right, and it's so joysy. But you know, 261 00:14:56,304 --> 00:14:58,264 Speaker 2: part of how I read that was is that, you know, 262 00:14:59,104 --> 00:15:01,184 Speaker 2: the scholars would all just go crazy trying to figure 263 00:15:01,224 --> 00:15:04,024 Speaker 2: out what this book actually meant and how it all works. 264 00:15:05,144 --> 00:15:06,824 Speaker 2: And so he was sort of like this proof of 265 00:15:06,864 --> 00:15:09,784 Speaker 2: this that a number of scholars seemed to gone off 266 00:15:10,304 --> 00:15:15,104 Speaker 2: the deep end. And so I called all the professors 267 00:15:15,104 --> 00:15:18,784 Speaker 2: in the English department, every one of them at BU, 268 00:15:19,184 --> 00:15:23,504 Speaker 2: and said, where's John Kidd? Because I couldn't find an 269 00:15:23,544 --> 00:15:27,224 Speaker 2: obituary and I couldn't find any leads on the Internet 270 00:15:27,264 --> 00:15:30,824 Speaker 2: as to where he was. And half the faculty said, oh, 271 00:15:30,904 --> 00:15:33,864 Speaker 2: I've heard he's dead. And then I found some scholars 272 00:15:33,904 --> 00:15:36,664 Speaker 2: in Europe who would say, you know, affirmatively that he 273 00:15:36,784 --> 00:15:37,184 Speaker 2: was dead. 274 00:15:37,304 --> 00:15:39,144 Speaker 1: But there should have been an obit somebody would have 275 00:15:39,144 --> 00:15:39,664 Speaker 1: written obit. 276 00:15:39,704 --> 00:15:42,024 Speaker 2: If he died, you figured exactly. I mean, how could 277 00:15:42,064 --> 00:15:44,184 Speaker 2: he how could he die even in home? I even 278 00:15:44,264 --> 00:15:47,544 Speaker 2: called homeless shelters all around Boston, trying to see if 279 00:15:47,544 --> 00:15:49,664 Speaker 2: he was just living in one. You know, at this. 280 00:15:49,704 --> 00:15:52,024 Speaker 1: Point, how'd you figure out he was alive? Well? 281 00:15:52,144 --> 00:15:55,704 Speaker 2: I talked to this one Finnegan's Wake scholar in Romania. 282 00:15:55,784 --> 00:15:58,024 Speaker 1: I think it's Wake being the even more complicated book 283 00:15:58,144 --> 00:15:59,824 Speaker 1: the Choice writes after Ulysses. 284 00:15:59,464 --> 00:16:02,224 Speaker 2: The book where Joyce actually does go mad and writes 285 00:16:02,224 --> 00:16:03,584 Speaker 2: a book that almost no one can. 286 00:16:03,504 --> 00:16:07,464 Speaker 1: Read, and forces Samuel Beckett, because he's blind at this point, 287 00:16:07,544 --> 00:16:09,944 Speaker 1: to like transcribe it, dictate letter by letter of these 288 00:16:09,944 --> 00:16:11,824 Speaker 1: made up words. He that's right, Okay, So how do 289 00:16:11,904 --> 00:16:14,504 Speaker 1: you find out? This? John kid guys a lot. 290 00:16:14,704 --> 00:16:18,024 Speaker 2: This happens over months and months and years. So at 291 00:16:18,024 --> 00:16:20,864 Speaker 2: one point someone had mentioned that he was in Central America, 292 00:16:21,664 --> 00:16:26,944 Speaker 2: and then I was reading these defunct blogs. I don't 293 00:16:26,944 --> 00:16:29,664 Speaker 2: even know how I got to him. I guess just 294 00:16:30,304 --> 00:16:34,344 Speaker 2: googling his name and going into the dead zone of 295 00:16:34,384 --> 00:16:37,944 Speaker 2: the Internet, like blogs that had been inactive for fifteen. 296 00:16:37,544 --> 00:16:38,624 Speaker 1: Years or ten years. 297 00:16:39,024 --> 00:16:43,184 Speaker 2: And there was this nudist in Brazil who said that 298 00:16:43,224 --> 00:16:45,904 Speaker 2: he had gone to some festival and he had run 299 00:16:45,944 --> 00:16:50,304 Speaker 2: across the world's greatest joy scholar there. Now, you just 300 00:16:50,344 --> 00:16:53,784 Speaker 2: don't describe anybody like that except for maybe John Kid. 301 00:16:54,544 --> 00:16:57,384 Speaker 2: And I thought, okay, maybe he's in Brazil it. 302 00:16:57,344 --> 00:16:59,744 Speaker 1: Was a nudist festival, or he's just a newdist too. No. 303 00:16:59,744 --> 00:17:02,024 Speaker 2: No, he was a nudist and all of his blogs 304 00:17:02,024 --> 00:17:04,704 Speaker 2: are about nudism. The mention of the joy scholar was 305 00:17:04,744 --> 00:17:08,384 Speaker 2: actually a fully clothed festival, a music festival. 306 00:17:09,064 --> 00:17:10,944 Speaker 1: It must be really good music if nudists are willing 307 00:17:10,944 --> 00:17:15,264 Speaker 1: to put on clothes for it, exactly. Yeah. 308 00:17:15,304 --> 00:17:18,264 Speaker 2: And so then I wrote back to the Finnegans Wag 309 00:17:18,304 --> 00:17:22,464 Speaker 2: scholar in Romania, who said, well, you know, I was 310 00:17:22,504 --> 00:17:25,744 Speaker 2: trying to get Kid to write the intro to my 311 00:17:25,984 --> 00:17:29,624 Speaker 2: addition of Finnegan's Wake, and he said he would, and 312 00:17:29,664 --> 00:17:32,224 Speaker 2: then you know, he just then you just stopped answering. 313 00:17:32,264 --> 00:17:35,304 Speaker 2: I just figured he disappeared or maybe died. And then 314 00:17:35,344 --> 00:17:38,624 Speaker 2: she gave me the email address that she had last used. 315 00:17:39,944 --> 00:17:43,544 Speaker 2: And so one Sunday morning, I just wrote a note 316 00:17:43,584 --> 00:17:45,784 Speaker 2: and said I'm Jack Hitch, but he you and I 317 00:17:45,824 --> 00:17:50,344 Speaker 2: corresponded once a long time ago about the CD ROM 318 00:17:50,424 --> 00:17:52,624 Speaker 2: version of Ulysses, and I was wondering if we could 319 00:17:52,944 --> 00:17:57,384 Speaker 2: catch up. You know, it'd been thirty years since that correspondence. 320 00:17:58,064 --> 00:18:00,824 Speaker 2: And first thing Monday morning, I opened up my email 321 00:18:00,864 --> 00:18:03,384 Speaker 2: and there's a reply from John Kidd saying, oh, yes, 322 00:18:03,424 --> 00:18:05,984 Speaker 2: I remember you, and he not only remembered all of 323 00:18:06,024 --> 00:18:07,104 Speaker 2: our conversations. 324 00:18:07,704 --> 00:18:08,144 Speaker 1: First, by the. 325 00:18:08,104 --> 00:18:10,344 Speaker 2: Way, I didn't even know if it was him, but 326 00:18:10,464 --> 00:18:13,304 Speaker 2: he put enough detail of what he remembered of our 327 00:18:13,344 --> 00:18:16,504 Speaker 2: conversation that I knew it was him. And then at 328 00:18:16,504 --> 00:18:18,664 Speaker 2: one point I said, you know, you haven't responded to 329 00:18:18,664 --> 00:18:21,264 Speaker 2: all of these people. People think your email is dead 330 00:18:21,264 --> 00:18:26,664 Speaker 2: and that you're dead, and I'm just wondering. It was like, 331 00:18:26,944 --> 00:18:31,624 Speaker 2: did you respond to my email? Because our names seem 332 00:18:31,664 --> 00:18:36,624 Speaker 2: to have a kind of Joysian connection. And he wrote back, 333 00:18:36,664 --> 00:18:38,904 Speaker 2: and he was so thrilled that I had made that 334 00:18:39,024 --> 00:18:44,144 Speaker 2: observation that Jack Hit and John Kidd are sort of 335 00:18:44,304 --> 00:18:50,144 Speaker 2: orthographically related, two names with four letters. Our last names 336 00:18:50,224 --> 00:18:54,344 Speaker 2: have double letter endings, iambic names that come at you 337 00:18:54,504 --> 00:18:58,504 Speaker 2: like two shotgun blasts, and it might be like an 338 00:18:58,504 --> 00:19:00,344 Speaker 2: obscenity in some other language, you know. 339 00:19:01,904 --> 00:19:03,984 Speaker 1: But he loved it that and. 340 00:19:03,944 --> 00:19:06,304 Speaker 2: Wrote me this long note about how our names are 341 00:19:06,304 --> 00:19:10,424 Speaker 2: so familiar and related. And yes, that was one of 342 00:19:10,424 --> 00:19:13,544 Speaker 2: the reasons why he responded to my email. 343 00:19:13,264 --> 00:19:15,544 Speaker 1: Which, how do you feel after all this time that 344 00:19:15,584 --> 00:19:18,624 Speaker 1: you finally found him? I was so thrilled, Like, are 345 00:19:18,624 --> 00:19:22,264 Speaker 1: you telling your family what's going on? Well? 346 00:19:22,344 --> 00:19:27,024 Speaker 2: I immediately wrote my editor at the New York Times magazine, 347 00:19:27,144 --> 00:19:29,824 Speaker 2: and of course, you know, no editor knew the story 348 00:19:29,864 --> 00:19:32,984 Speaker 2: because this story reaches out over thirty years. So I 349 00:19:33,024 --> 00:19:35,184 Speaker 2: had to go back and like basically re educate them 350 00:19:35,184 --> 00:19:37,944 Speaker 2: about the whole New York Review book things and then 351 00:19:38,024 --> 00:19:39,144 Speaker 2: the homeless thing. 352 00:19:39,144 --> 00:19:42,104 Speaker 1: And so they send you to find kid in Brazil. 353 00:19:42,304 --> 00:19:44,664 Speaker 2: Well, I asked John if I could come down and 354 00:19:44,664 --> 00:19:47,024 Speaker 2: talk to him about Ulysses, and he said, sure, if 355 00:19:47,064 --> 00:19:50,664 Speaker 2: you're in Rio, give me a ring. So I called. 356 00:19:50,744 --> 00:19:53,144 Speaker 2: So when I wrote this bitch, I said he's in 357 00:19:53,224 --> 00:19:56,304 Speaker 2: Rio waiting for me, and they were like, Okay, get 358 00:19:56,304 --> 00:19:57,144 Speaker 2: a ticket and let's go. 359 00:19:57,584 --> 00:20:02,224 Speaker 1: When you finally meet him, does he seem sane? Does 360 00:20:02,264 --> 00:20:04,504 Speaker 1: he look normal? Does he like? What's your vibe on 361 00:20:04,544 --> 00:20:04,864 Speaker 1: this guy? 362 00:20:06,424 --> 00:20:09,824 Speaker 2: Well, I'm six one and I'd say that John Kidd 363 00:20:09,864 --> 00:20:13,784 Speaker 2: is easily my height or taller. At this point, he 364 00:20:14,344 --> 00:20:19,344 Speaker 2: still had this sort of blondish white hair, but it 365 00:20:19,544 --> 00:20:22,944 Speaker 2: was halfway down his back. His hair was well and 366 00:20:23,024 --> 00:20:25,304 Speaker 2: again Dolphie and territory. 367 00:20:26,184 --> 00:20:28,544 Speaker 1: Does he have the beard too or just the hair? No, 368 00:20:28,744 --> 00:20:30,024 Speaker 1: just the hair. Yeah. 369 00:20:30,064 --> 00:20:34,784 Speaker 2: It was clear that every detail of this fight, going 370 00:20:34,824 --> 00:20:40,304 Speaker 2: all the way back to nineteen nineteen eighties, every textual critique, 371 00:20:40,424 --> 00:20:43,184 Speaker 2: every jot and tittle, the big dot, all of that 372 00:20:43,304 --> 00:20:47,144 Speaker 2: stuff was as fresh in his mind as anything. It 373 00:20:47,224 --> 00:20:49,744 Speaker 2: was nothing crazy about him. He was just he was 374 00:20:49,824 --> 00:20:53,424 Speaker 2: still the textual master of Joyce's ulysses. I'd be sitting 375 00:20:53,464 --> 00:20:56,064 Speaker 2: there with my random house or my gabbler and he 376 00:20:56,064 --> 00:20:57,664 Speaker 2: would just grab it from me and flip it open 377 00:20:57,664 --> 00:20:59,064 Speaker 2: and point to where he. 378 00:20:59,064 --> 00:21:00,624 Speaker 1: Was talking about. Oh he would know the page. 379 00:21:00,824 --> 00:21:03,224 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yes, And. 380 00:21:03,624 --> 00:21:05,944 Speaker 1: Does that feel like, oh, this guy's just spent a 381 00:21:05,944 --> 00:21:07,384 Speaker 1: lot of time on this or this guy is a 382 00:21:07,384 --> 00:21:08,424 Speaker 1: different kind of brain. 383 00:21:09,504 --> 00:21:11,304 Speaker 2: Totally a different kind of brain. When we went to 384 00:21:11,344 --> 00:21:14,104 Speaker 2: his house, and his house was just, I mean almost 385 00:21:14,984 --> 00:21:20,424 Speaker 2: comical in that every piece of open space was had 386 00:21:20,464 --> 00:21:21,064 Speaker 2: books on it. 387 00:21:21,144 --> 00:21:23,744 Speaker 1: And you also said, I love this that he is 388 00:21:23,784 --> 00:21:26,384 Speaker 1: still pissed off about that Boston Globe article about the 389 00:21:26,424 --> 00:21:28,064 Speaker 1: pigeons exactly. 390 00:21:28,264 --> 00:21:31,584 Speaker 2: He was furious that they described him as homeless and like, 391 00:21:31,664 --> 00:21:33,984 Speaker 2: you know, pennyless and living on the streets. And he 392 00:21:34,144 --> 00:21:38,384 Speaker 2: pulls out a bank statement from the year of that 393 00:21:38,504 --> 00:21:42,224 Speaker 2: Boston Globe article to show me that he had a 394 00:21:42,624 --> 00:21:46,064 Speaker 2: running balance of over fifteen thousand dollars in his checking account. 395 00:21:46,944 --> 00:21:48,784 Speaker 2: I mean, he just had that at the ready, like 396 00:21:48,824 --> 00:21:50,544 Speaker 2: when we sat down. He just pulled that out of 397 00:21:50,584 --> 00:21:51,304 Speaker 2: his coat pocket. 398 00:21:51,584 --> 00:21:53,664 Speaker 1: And why do you say this book never came out? 399 00:21:53,944 --> 00:21:55,544 Speaker 1: His addition of ulysses. 400 00:21:55,984 --> 00:21:59,304 Speaker 2: So the editor you know whom I spoke to, you know, 401 00:21:59,384 --> 00:22:02,064 Speaker 2: eventually just gave up because so many years had passed 402 00:22:02,064 --> 00:22:04,584 Speaker 2: and they had not you know, gotten anything, but they 403 00:22:04,624 --> 00:22:07,624 Speaker 2: had gotten like an introduction and some piece of it. 404 00:22:07,744 --> 00:22:10,784 Speaker 2: And kid told me that, you know, parts of it 405 00:22:10,824 --> 00:22:13,024 Speaker 2: are whatever we're sent to the editor and got. 406 00:22:12,904 --> 00:22:15,504 Speaker 1: Lost got lost. That seems unlikely. 407 00:22:15,864 --> 00:22:18,264 Speaker 2: Yes, back in the days when everything happened by mail, 408 00:22:18,744 --> 00:22:22,424 Speaker 2: there is some version of this attempt at this book 409 00:22:23,144 --> 00:22:25,984 Speaker 2: that did get published. And I went to look for 410 00:22:26,024 --> 00:22:28,784 Speaker 2: this thing and had paintings in it by Robert Motherwell. 411 00:22:29,064 --> 00:22:31,584 Speaker 2: And only one hundred and seventy five of these books 412 00:22:31,584 --> 00:22:34,544 Speaker 2: were ever published. So this just adds more, you know, 413 00:22:34,624 --> 00:22:37,064 Speaker 2: lore to the publishing history of this book by the way. 414 00:22:37,184 --> 00:22:39,744 Speaker 2: I went on Amazon and found one for sale. It 415 00:22:39,784 --> 00:22:42,824 Speaker 2: costs twenty five, six hundred and seventy eight dollars. It's 416 00:22:42,824 --> 00:22:46,144 Speaker 2: an impossible thing to find, but yeah, they're out there. 417 00:22:46,424 --> 00:22:50,104 Speaker 1: And what did kids say he's done since leaving Bu? 418 00:22:50,704 --> 00:22:54,544 Speaker 2: Well, he went through this period of the Dream of 419 00:22:54,584 --> 00:22:57,744 Speaker 2: the Red Chamber, right, which is this you know, legendary 420 00:22:57,824 --> 00:22:58,544 Speaker 2: Asian novel. 421 00:22:58,984 --> 00:23:02,384 Speaker 1: It's like the classic Chinese novel bits. It's very long, right, 422 00:23:03,224 --> 00:23:04,944 Speaker 1: super long. Have you ever tried to read that? 423 00:23:05,344 --> 00:23:07,384 Speaker 2: I had not. I had friends in college. That was 424 00:23:07,424 --> 00:23:08,904 Speaker 2: the book they carried around, and so that was the 425 00:23:09,144 --> 00:23:12,744 Speaker 2: other book that was their big book. And so apparently 426 00:23:12,824 --> 00:23:15,624 Speaker 2: he lived in China for a long time and became 427 00:23:15,864 --> 00:23:18,224 Speaker 2: you know, a red ologist, that's what they're actually called, 428 00:23:19,104 --> 00:23:22,464 Speaker 2: who become obsessed with that book. And then eventually one 429 00:23:22,464 --> 00:23:23,744 Speaker 2: thing led or another, and he wound. 430 00:23:23,544 --> 00:23:26,944 Speaker 1: Up in Rio where he's working on some like Portuguese 431 00:23:26,984 --> 00:23:27,624 Speaker 1: big book. Right. 432 00:23:28,664 --> 00:23:31,304 Speaker 2: Right, So there was this book, you know, a century 433 00:23:31,424 --> 00:23:35,784 Speaker 2: or so ago that was very influential in terms of 434 00:23:35,944 --> 00:23:40,064 Speaker 2: ending slavery in Brazil, which ended shortly after our Civil war. 435 00:23:41,224 --> 00:23:43,384 Speaker 2: But it was sort of like Uncle Tom's Cabin to them, 436 00:23:43,424 --> 00:23:47,264 Speaker 2: and involved this person named Esora, and so he's he's 437 00:23:47,344 --> 00:23:51,544 Speaker 2: translating what he calls Esora Unbound. 438 00:23:51,584 --> 00:23:54,904 Speaker 1: And he's still working on Ulysses or interested in ulyseser No. 439 00:23:55,104 --> 00:23:58,064 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like I said, all every aspect 440 00:23:58,104 --> 00:24:01,944 Speaker 2: of the Joycean fight is very much alive in his mind, 441 00:24:02,184 --> 00:24:06,944 Speaker 2: but he's mostly consumed with this translation or adaptation of 442 00:24:07,424 --> 00:24:08,264 Speaker 2: Esora Unbound. 443 00:24:08,464 --> 00:24:14,024 Speaker 1: Okay, you write the amazing story. It comes out, and uh, 444 00:24:14,624 --> 00:24:16,064 Speaker 1: what's the reaction in general? 445 00:24:16,224 --> 00:24:18,584 Speaker 2: Well, I was amazed at how many people wanted to 446 00:24:18,744 --> 00:24:23,984 Speaker 2: rehabilitate him entirely and bring him back into the you know, 447 00:24:24,064 --> 00:24:27,744 Speaker 2: into the fold of academ and bring out his version 448 00:24:27,744 --> 00:24:28,464 Speaker 2: of Ulysses. 449 00:24:28,664 --> 00:24:30,584 Speaker 1: But that's not going to happen, right, That's that was 450 00:24:31,264 --> 00:24:31,984 Speaker 1: or did that happen? 451 00:24:32,264 --> 00:24:34,984 Speaker 2: I don't know how that left off. Okay, you know 452 00:24:35,144 --> 00:24:38,264 Speaker 2: I wrote him and said, these people want to contact you. 453 00:24:38,304 --> 00:24:40,304 Speaker 2: Can I forward them your email? 454 00:24:40,384 --> 00:24:43,664 Speaker 1: He was like, absolutely, Okay, Well I found that. I'm sure, Yes, 455 00:24:43,744 --> 00:24:46,744 Speaker 1: you have the blog post or some such that he 456 00:24:46,824 --> 00:24:47,904 Speaker 1: wrote about your piece. 457 00:24:48,304 --> 00:24:50,064 Speaker 2: I haven't. I haven't read it. But tell me what 458 00:24:50,184 --> 00:24:51,624 Speaker 2: have you not read it? No? 459 00:24:51,744 --> 00:24:56,184 Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on the New York Times review of books. 460 00:24:56,224 --> 00:25:01,784 Speaker 1: You I'm so excited now, I should double check this 461 00:25:02,024 --> 00:25:03,384 Speaker 1: now that I know you haven't read it, to make 462 00:25:03,384 --> 00:25:07,264 Speaker 1: sure it really is him. But I'm pretty sure I 463 00:25:07,304 --> 00:25:10,104 Speaker 1: can tell you if you start reading. Okay, I have 464 00:25:10,184 --> 00:25:12,824 Speaker 1: never claimed I was on the quest to perfect Ulysses, 465 00:25:13,424 --> 00:25:16,784 Speaker 1: or to edit a definitive Ulysses, or to concoct any 466 00:25:16,984 --> 00:25:20,784 Speaker 1: perfect edition. New York Times Magazine author Jack Hit simply 467 00:25:20,864 --> 00:25:22,944 Speaker 1: made that up, as he seems to have done with 468 00:25:23,024 --> 00:25:26,464 Speaker 1: several other things attributed to me by him. Or maybe 469 00:25:26,464 --> 00:25:29,464 Speaker 1: he has an uncredited source that inspired him to romanticize 470 00:25:29,464 --> 00:25:34,104 Speaker 1: my mundane drudgery as a tropical textologist and translator. Does 471 00:25:34,104 --> 00:25:35,624 Speaker 1: it sound like him so far? Oh? 472 00:25:35,664 --> 00:25:39,584 Speaker 2: That's him, Yeah, totally. I even told my editor, I said, 473 00:25:39,664 --> 00:25:43,184 Speaker 2: of course, you know, the greatest attack on this piece 474 00:25:43,224 --> 00:25:45,464 Speaker 2: will be from John Kitt. Oh. You know, maybe you 475 00:25:45,504 --> 00:25:47,904 Speaker 2: can convince some of your friends to buy each of 476 00:25:47,984 --> 00:25:51,704 Speaker 2: us a copy of the Motherwell Edition of Ulysses to 477 00:25:51,784 --> 00:25:52,984 Speaker 2: round out our collections. 478 00:25:54,104 --> 00:25:57,144 Speaker 1: You know, I bet we can start a dow, one 479 00:25:57,184 --> 00:26:00,264 Speaker 1: of those the web three dows and get them. We'll 480 00:26:00,304 --> 00:26:02,304 Speaker 1: buy one. We'll have one in no time. He has 481 00:26:02,304 --> 00:26:06,784 Speaker 1: a gofund me page exactly. That's easier. The Lesson of 482 00:26:06,944 --> 00:26:09,704 Speaker 1: Ulysses of course, is to be nice to your wife. 483 00:26:09,944 --> 00:26:12,344 Speaker 1: But the other lesson is that we need to stop 484 00:26:12,384 --> 00:26:16,704 Speaker 1: banning books. The fact that Ulysses was a band for 485 00:26:16,824 --> 00:26:19,984 Speaker 1: ten years in the US for being too sexually explicit 486 00:26:20,224 --> 00:26:23,384 Speaker 1: is insane. Like, listen to this part that they got 487 00:26:23,384 --> 00:26:26,864 Speaker 1: to set about, it's nothing. He must have come three 488 00:26:26,944 --> 00:26:29,984 Speaker 1: or four times with that tremendous, big red brute of 489 00:26:29,984 --> 00:26:32,664 Speaker 1: a thing he has. I thought the vein or whatever 490 00:26:32,704 --> 00:26:35,024 Speaker 1: the dickens they call it was going to burst through 491 00:26:35,064 --> 00:26:38,984 Speaker 1: his nose. Oh, come on, guys, it's a classic. It's 492 00:26:38,984 --> 00:26:40,024 Speaker 1: about to get hot. 493 00:26:41,824 --> 00:26:43,224 Speaker 2: At the end of the show. 494 00:26:43,424 --> 00:26:46,464 Speaker 1: What's next for joel Stein? Maybe he'll take a nap 495 00:26:46,664 --> 00:26:51,144 Speaker 1: er poker round online. Our show is produced by Joey 496 00:26:51,184 --> 00:26:56,024 Speaker 1: fish Ground, Mola Bard and Nishavenka. It was edited by 497 00:26:56,184 --> 00:26:59,304 Speaker 1: Lydia jedden Kopp. Our engineer is Amantha kay Wang and 498 00:26:59,344 --> 00:27:03,104 Speaker 1: our executive producer is Cathroinald Cheradah. Our theme song was 499 00:27:03,144 --> 00:27:06,304 Speaker 1: produced by Jonathan Colton. A special thanks to my voice 500 00:27:06,344 --> 00:27:10,664 Speaker 1: coach Bicky Merrick and my consulting producer Laurence Alasna. To 501 00:27:10,704 --> 00:27:14,864 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app Apple 502 00:27:14,904 --> 00:27:19,024 Speaker 1: Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel 503 00:27:19,064 --> 00:27:21,864 Speaker 1: Stein and this is Story of the Week. 504 00:27:23,784 --> 00:27:27,464 Speaker 2: This is a completely illegal copy of Ulysses. This was 505 00:27:27,464 --> 00:27:31,264 Speaker 2: published by a pornographer in the sixties. But when you 506 00:27:31,304 --> 00:27:33,544 Speaker 2: get to the very last few pages, let me see 507 00:27:33,544 --> 00:27:37,104 Speaker 2: if I can show you this. Here's a page with 508 00:27:37,224 --> 00:27:40,104 Speaker 2: a penis a peter meter. 509 00:27:40,624 --> 00:27:42,664 Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait, you threw out the word peter meter, 510 00:27:42,744 --> 00:27:45,344 Speaker 1: as if that's something that people know. Is that Is 511 00:27:45,384 --> 00:27:45,944 Speaker 1: that a ruler? 512 00:27:46,584 --> 00:27:49,104 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a ruler to measure your penis. 513 00:27:49,224 --> 00:27:51,864 Speaker 1: Wait, that was a peter meter was a popular phrase 514 00:27:51,944 --> 00:27:52,824 Speaker 1: and thing at some point. 515 00:27:53,344 --> 00:27:54,104 Speaker 2: Absolutely