Speaker 1: I think we have the best legal system.
Speaker 2: It's just the people that implement they get lost along
Speaker 2: the way and forget.
Speaker 1: What their job really is.
Speaker 3: He just kept on trying to remind me that who
Speaker 3: was in authority, who was in control, and how easy
Speaker 3: it was for my body to be found in any
Speaker 3: alley of New York City.
Speaker 4: It's a tough prison when you have the guards going
Speaker 4: against you because they are the biggest gang in the prison.
Speaker 1: They do that.
Speaker 2: They'll give a guy a life sentence and go home
Speaker 2: in eat spaghetti like it was nothing.
Speaker 3: And anybody that said, well, why would you confess to
Speaker 3: something that you didn't do? My question to them will
Speaker 3: be why wouldn't you confess when somebody's threatening to kill
Speaker 3: your life?
Speaker 2: The judge, he said, how you feel? I said, I'm okay.
Speaker 2: He said, well, the days you're lucky day you're going home.
Speaker 4: This is wrongful Conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with
Speaker 4: Jason Flamm.
Speaker 5: Today we have two guests and I feel really excited
Speaker 5: about today's episode.
Speaker 4: We have Antoine Day.
Speaker 5: Antoine Day sixty years for murder, twenty five years for
Speaker 5: attempted murder.
Speaker 1: In nineteen ninety two, Antoine Day was found guilty of
Speaker 1: the murder of one man and attempted murder of another
Speaker 1: outside a liquor store on Chicago's West Side.
Speaker 4: Convicted in nineteen ninety two, exonerated in two thousand and two.
Speaker 4: Antoine Welcome to the show.
Speaker 5: Well, thanks for having me, And with Antoine, he brought
Speaker 5: a luminary in the criminal justice reform movement. Laura Caldwell
Speaker 5: and Laura is an accomplished author of many many books novels,
Speaker 5: also professor at Loyola in Chicago and the found of
Speaker 5: the Life After Innocence.
Speaker 6: Yeah, Lai at Loyola University Chicago School of Law.
Speaker 4: Got it.
Speaker 5: But let's go back to the beginning. You came from Illinois, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, West side of Chicago.
Speaker 5: And you were a musician, and you had some stuff
Speaker 5: going on at the time that everything went haywire.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 5: It was a murder that happened at a craps game,
Speaker 5: right right. Two people shot Thomas Peters and James Coleman,
Speaker 5: and Peters died and Coleman was wounded, and they're out
Speaker 5: looking for the suspects.
Speaker 4: How'd you get mixed up?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: I got mixed up because you know, I didn't come
Speaker 2: from that real cush community. You know, I come from
Speaker 2: a very hard heart community, you know, the West side
Speaker 2: of Chicago. Even right now, it's the top murder has
Speaker 2: the top murder rate in.
Speaker 4: The state and one of the top of the country.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in the country. Yeah it is.
Speaker 2: So I lived, as I live now in its same community,
Speaker 2: and I also I work in the second largest murder
Speaker 2: rate in the country in Lindale. So how it happened
Speaker 2: was I was known in the community because I was
Speaker 2: in the street. You know, I did some things in
Speaker 2: the street. Today I wouldn't be so proud of. But
Speaker 2: you know, young kid, you know, you did some things,
Speaker 2: and so you meet.
Speaker 4: People, but not necessarily violent thing.
Speaker 2: No, nothing violent, had nothing to do with violence. I
Speaker 2: sold drugs, you know, I sold marijuana. I did what
Speaker 2: most young guys my age do.
Speaker 4: So okay, So you were I was known.
Speaker 1: And then I was a musician.
Speaker 2: We played all the community of fast concerts. We did
Speaker 2: a lot of things. And I lived in the community,
Speaker 2: but in this particular community I lived in. The guys
Speaker 2: that actually got killed stayed only a block away from
Speaker 2: my home from where I lived. He stayed the next
Speaker 2: block over, and I didn't know them. They didn't know me,
Speaker 2: so when the incident occurred, they said that it was
Speaker 2: a black vehicle, so right away they tagged all the
Speaker 2: black vehicles in the area. I had two black vehicles.
Speaker 2: I had a station Wagon. I'm a car man, you know,
Speaker 2: I love cars. So I had a station Wagon that
Speaker 2: was fixed up, and I had a Chevy Blazer that
Speaker 2: was also fixed up. So these two cars stay parked
Speaker 2: in front of my home. So when the police ran
Speaker 2: an icing plate, they had my name. We had played
Speaker 2: in New Orleans. It was raining really hard, so when
Speaker 2: we came back that morning, it was a car to
Speaker 2: my door. So I took the car to investigator's car,
Speaker 2: Detective Connley, I think it was.
Speaker 1: I called him. I said, you left a car to
Speaker 1: my door for what.
Speaker 2: He said, well, I want you to come in and
Speaker 2: talk to me about some things that took place over
Speaker 2: the weekend. I said, well, I wasn't here for the weekend.
Speaker 2: So he had the conversay. He said, well, just come in.
Speaker 2: He asked me what did I look like? I said,
Speaker 2: what you mean, when do I look like? He said, so,
Speaker 2: what are your features? Are you a big guy? Your
Speaker 2: little guy? I'm like, why would you ask me that?
Speaker 2: Shouldn't you be telling me you're looking for me. I'm
Speaker 2: not looking for you. Then he said, well, the story
Speaker 2: was that you were, you know, about six' to two like.
Speaker 2: Complex THEN i, said, no that's not. Me he, said
Speaker 2: so you shouldn't have no.
Speaker 4: Problem how tall are?
Speaker 1: YOU i gotta be about five, ten probably used to be.
Speaker 5: Taller you were number six, too and like, complected you
Speaker 5: KNOW i like complected and, yeah so you didn't fit the.
Speaker 2: DESCRIPTION i, didn't SO i thought maybe they just got my,
Speaker 2: name so let me go. In so WHEN i went,
Speaker 2: in he started asking me about my, car, said WHY
Speaker 2: i have two? Vehicles is? Black so he went over
Speaker 2: the thing with the. Car he asked, me had anybody
Speaker 2: been driving the? Car?
Speaker 1: Stant, no my cars haven't, moved been sitting all.
Speaker 2: Week so you begin to ask me about DID i
Speaker 2: know these particular.
Speaker 1: People i'm saying, NO i don't. Know don't. FORGET i
Speaker 1: took a lawyer in with.
Speaker 4: ME i, mean let's adaly. This you were a thousand
Speaker 4: miles away right when the thing.
Speaker 5: Happened, right you didn't fit the description, Right but, still
Speaker 5: growing up in that type of, environment you know that
Speaker 5: the police are capable of pulling some thirty tricks, right And, chicago,
Speaker 5: unfortunately is as infamous as, anywhere with all the scandals
Speaker 5: that have happened, there very well.
Speaker 4: Known so you.
Speaker 5: Hired to learn, though because you're, thinking you, KNOW i
Speaker 5: better BE i better just take every say. Exactly so
Speaker 5: you hired this lawyer and then tell us the.
Speaker 2: Story i've never been one to trust the police, anyway
Speaker 2: because they've done a lot of things in the. Past
Speaker 2: SO i KNEW i should maybe take this lawyer in with.
Speaker 1: Me SO i called.
Speaker 2: Him he, said, SURE i, come and you, KNOW i, said,
Speaker 2: MAN i just to make sure this go. Right you,
Speaker 2: KNOW i KNOW i haven't done, anything SO i want
Speaker 2: to make sure this goes. Right he, said, okay he comes.
Speaker 2: In he came to my mom's, house met me at
Speaker 2: my mother's, house and we went to the police.
Speaker 4: Stay how far is that maybe two.
Speaker 2: Miles So i'm sitting in the interview, room, well not
Speaker 2: an interview. Room it's just a, room, big, big open,
Speaker 2: space maybe sixty seventy chairs in this.
Speaker 1: Room i'm sitting in a.
Speaker 2: Chair it's another guy sitting in a, chair you, know
Speaker 2: maybe ten feet away from. Me you, know we're just.
Speaker 2: Talking we've been sitting there so. Long so now we
Speaker 2: begin to. Talk i'm, like, MAN i don't know why
Speaker 2: they got me. Here he said me.
Speaker 1: Either. Man they brought me in here and just made,
Speaker 1: me you, know sit.
Speaker 2: Here i've been sitting there for the longest because he
Speaker 2: was actually here BEFORE i, here and we were just
Speaker 2: sitting there. Talking then the detective came. In he, said,
Speaker 2: look are you willing to stand the? LINEUP i sent a?
Speaker 2: Lineup so Now i'm looking for my. Lawyer, logical where's my?
Speaker 2: Lawyer where was it for this?
Speaker 1: Lineup? Right he was.
Speaker 2: Gone he had left a message that he was going
Speaker 2: to his daughter's birthday.
Speaker 1: Party so he left me in the police.
Speaker 4: Station and you paid him five thousand.
Speaker 1: Dollars he got five grand out of me.
Speaker 5: To drive you two. Miles that's like twenty five hundred.
Speaker 5: Miles that's not not it's not bad, man that's, incredible you.
Speaker 5: Know SO i Just i'm, SORRY i. Can't that's. CRAZY
Speaker 5: i got to take him.
Speaker 2: Pause how he got five thousand in the. Beginning let
Speaker 2: me just MAKE i gave him twenty five. Hundred that
Speaker 2: was going to the police, station, right and if anything
Speaker 2: else had, occurred THEN i would have gave him the
Speaker 2: rest of, it so and it. DID i guess that
Speaker 2: was the part of the. Setup so now he gets
Speaker 2: all his money if he leave and THEN i get.
Speaker 2: Arrested SO i felt like it was from the beginning
Speaker 2: it was a.
Speaker 5: Setup so he had an incentive to get you, ARRESTED i. Believe,
Speaker 5: so oh my, God, well, OKAY i mean that's because what.
Speaker 1: Else could it.
Speaker 2: Be he, Left he didn't even start his job to finish.
Speaker 2: It so the start was to be there for questioning if,
Speaker 2: anything the whole, conversation he wasn't, There.
Speaker 4: So you're on your, own, right and then what.
Speaker 5: HAPPENS i want to Bring laura into this conversation because
Speaker 5: she's so familiar with all this kind of nons she
Speaker 5: know better than. THAT i Think antoine's case is a
Speaker 5: roadmap how not to do.
Speaker 6: Things it's also a roadmap in a sense of what
Speaker 6: happens when you're. Innocent when you're, innocent you're always happy
Speaker 6: to talk to someone because, frankly you know you didn't do.
Speaker 6: It but how smart to get a lawyer at least
Speaker 6: before you do talk to someone on something you don't.
Speaker 6: Know so that was such a smart. Move we usually
Speaker 6: hear people go into the station all the. Time not
Speaker 6: everybody's smart enough to bring a. Lawyer unfortunately for, him
Speaker 6: the lawyer was very negligent and left and didn't come.
Speaker 1: Back they then put.
Speaker 6: Him in a lineup and the two gentlemen he was
Speaker 6: sitting with the cops actually we now, know said go
Speaker 6: ahead and pick that gentleman. Out later one of them quickly,
Speaker 6: recanted so its not that, guy but it was too.
Speaker 6: Late they've been identified and Off antoine.
Speaker 2: Was so you got to remember these two. Guys both
Speaker 2: of these guys was heroin, addicts you. Know and the
Speaker 2: one GUY i think Was coleman who said he, said,
Speaker 2: man they KNEW i was a dope thing when they arrested.
Speaker 1: Me he, SAID i would.
Speaker 2: Say my mother Killed kennedy if they had made me do.
Speaker 2: It you, know he said. That because this guy came
Speaker 2: to court and he. Apologized coleman is the only one who. Apologized,
Speaker 2: well both of them came to court and admitted why
Speaker 2: they lied because the police had arrested, them these same
Speaker 2: two guys.
Speaker 1: Before, see they had a history with these same.
Speaker 2: Detectives so it kind of weigh, out you, know once
Speaker 2: you start your investigation and you really get to see
Speaker 2: how they're.
Speaker 5: Connected there's a really important thing that, happens or actually
Speaker 5: doesn't happen during the, trial, right which is that now
Speaker 5: that you've already been screwed over by the first, lawyer
Speaker 5: now you get a second.
Speaker 4: Lawyer the second one really, yea fucked you.
Speaker 1: Over i'm also paid FOR i like what you said
Speaker 1: that he really.
Speaker 5: Did your attorney neglected to do things that a third
Speaker 5: grader would have, done, right which, is he neglected to
Speaker 5: call the witnesses who would have placed you elsewhere at
Speaker 5: the time of the. Crime and he neglected to call the.
Speaker 5: Victim there were two. Victims one of them was a.
Speaker 5: Lie he couldn't call the dead, guy, right but the
Speaker 5: living Guy.
Speaker 4: Coleman.
Speaker 5: Right he wanted to, testify, Right and sometimes guys don't
Speaker 5: want to. Testify he wanted to. Testify so all this
Speaker 5: idiot that was representing, you AND i say that in
Speaker 5: the nicest possible.
Speaker 1: Way don't be.
Speaker 5: Nice all this guy would have had to do is
Speaker 5: say your, honor like IN. Tv i'd like to bring
Speaker 5: to the Stands James, coleman and Then, coleman who got
Speaker 5: shot would have said that you weren't the, guy and
Speaker 5: then you would have gone home and.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about that for a.
Speaker 5: Second so were you not able to say to your,
Speaker 5: attorney hey, man call THE i.
Speaker 2: DID i said, it AND i had people getting and
Speaker 2: gathering the witnesses. People that was actually that he goes
Speaker 2: to a crime scene so long after the incident and
Speaker 2: couldn't find. Anybody he went into the liquor store asking
Speaker 2: questions about inside of a liquor. Store now keep in
Speaker 2: mind that they said that this was actually going to
Speaker 2: be a stick up. Murder they said THAT i was
Speaker 2: robbing a dice game AND i saw these two guys
Speaker 2: WHO i had some issues, with and begin to.
Speaker 1: Shoot this is what they.
Speaker 2: Said my intention was to rob a dice, game a
Speaker 2: two dollars dice, game which was a, JOKE a.
Speaker 4: Two dollar dice. Game, yeah and you had two.
Speaker 2: CARS i had two, cars, buildings and a lot of other.
Speaker 1: Stuff so these people say.
Speaker 2: They really didn't need four, hours, RIGHT i really didn't
Speaker 2: a two dollars dice. Game so he said that this
Speaker 2: was the reason for the. Shooting so when they came
Speaker 2: back to me with the explanation of WHY i supposed
Speaker 2: to shot these two, Guys James coleman had always, said
Speaker 2: you wasn't the, guy he, said AND i told him.
Speaker 1: That he, said but, MAN i was. Sick you.
Speaker 2: KNOW i had a conversation with, him and he said
Speaker 2: THAT i was. SICK i talked to this man on the,
Speaker 2: phone you, know a whole lot of. Times and he
Speaker 2: even went to my, mother's to my parents' house and
Speaker 2: told my mom THAT i lied on. Him for that,
Speaker 2: reason he, said AND i need to straighten it. Out
Speaker 2: he just couldn't get hisself, together and he said it
Speaker 2: also in, court say his life had really fell apart
Speaker 2: because he knew he lied on. Me but then the other,
Speaker 2: guy the real, girly his intention was. Money his family
Speaker 2: wanted me to pay. Them if you give us THIS x.
Speaker 1: Amount of, dollars we'll walk. Away we won't even show up.
Speaker 5: In court because was originally a witness against, you, Right
Speaker 5: and then he was ready to testify at the, trial
Speaker 5: and he had, lied.
Speaker 4: RIGHT i just want to make that clear to the.
Speaker 5: Audience so ultimately you had an, option WHICH i find
Speaker 5: is an interesting. Thing, Right so your co defendant chose
Speaker 5: to be tried by a jury and you chose to
Speaker 5: be tried by a.
Speaker 2: Judge let's talk about, that because when we went into the.
Speaker 1: COURTROOM i kind.
Speaker 2: Of felt that this judge wasn't the JUDGE i. WANTED
Speaker 2: i didn't want a bench. TRIAL i never wanted a bench.
Speaker 2: Trial the attorney wanted a bench. TRIAL i wanted to pick,
Speaker 2: twelve but he denied me a jury. Trial he told
Speaker 2: me THAT i waited too late to.
Speaker 1: Pick a jury. Trial the judge tell you the judge.
Speaker 2: Did he, said we waited too late to pick a jury,
Speaker 2: trial AND i wanted.
Speaker 1: TWELVE i never trusted the.
Speaker 4: Judge or is that a?
Speaker 6: Thing you are supposed to demand trial by jury when
Speaker 6: you file your answer when you. APPEAR i don't know
Speaker 6: if he failed to do. That if he did that
Speaker 6: alone is. Malpractice but what you do is you routinely
Speaker 6: ask for a jury and then if later you want
Speaker 6: to switch to a bench you can. So either he
Speaker 6: didn't ask for it early on we never.
Speaker 1: Could seess that.
Speaker 6: Out or he thought the judge would be good for
Speaker 6: them and then counseled him. Incorrectly but in any, event
Speaker 6: he counseled him against his wishes and against what would
Speaker 6: have been hopefully a much better outcome with twelve people
Speaker 6: and minds.
Speaker 2: YOU i walked into the police. Station they had to
Speaker 2: run this guy. Down the guy is inconcrated right now
Speaker 2: for the. Murder they had to run him. Down they found.
Speaker 2: Him which guy you talking? About my co, defendant, Right?
Speaker 2: Okay who they made my co. DEFENDED i don't like
Speaker 2: claiming him BECAUSE i didn't even know this.
Speaker 1: Guy but they found him.
Speaker 2: Later he found him later on and arrested him and
Speaker 2: brought him. In so Now i'm demanding a separate. Trial
Speaker 2: but they tried us just the same. Time SO i
Speaker 2: felt my rights was BECAUSE i almost took. OVER i
Speaker 2: Know i'm not an, attorney BUT i got good common.
Speaker 2: SENSE i don't want to sit at the table with this,
Speaker 2: guy and he is the. Shooter so Now i'm sitting
Speaker 2: at the. Table so what he Did he simultaneously tried
Speaker 2: us in the same, day the same court with the same.
Speaker 4: People, yeah that seems.
Speaker 5: Crazy so you end up getting convicted and being sent
Speaker 5: to a really scary.
Speaker 2: Place oh, Yeah pontiac prison guards to tell you welcome To.
Speaker 2: Pontiac in fifteen, minutes you had your own personal.
Speaker 4: Shak your own personal, Shak, yeah.
Speaker 1: And you had.
Speaker 2: It place was full of blood already when you walked
Speaker 2: through those big doors slide, open AND i ain't never
Speaker 2: been in prison.
Speaker 1: Before, man it was it was.
Speaker 5: SHOCKING i read that there were three hundred and sixty
Speaker 5: incarcerated men in the prison at that time in five.
Speaker 1: Guards, yeah in one, building.
Speaker 4: In one, building yeah.
Speaker 5: YEAH i mean that doesn't sound like a recipe for success.
Speaker 5: EITHER i mean one building and the guards had automatic,
Speaker 5: weapons and there were bullet, holes and there was a
Speaker 5: sign that said gud rapped to the ground if bullets are.
Speaker 5: Fired whee that sign where you, like AM i in a?
Speaker 4: War?
Speaker 2: Yeah that's What that's what it. Was you can be
Speaker 2: on the yard in five seconds and watch somebody get.
Speaker 2: Stabbed that's the reason they tell you if you go,
Speaker 2: down drop to the, ground.
Speaker 5: Because then they're gonna start to. Shoot being vastly outnumbered
Speaker 5: as the guards, were that's their last, recourse. RIGHT i
Speaker 5: mean that's a tough job. TOO i, MEAN i, mean just.
Speaker 2: For the sake of knowing what exactly, happens you, know
Speaker 2: BECAUSE i know they. Exaggerated so those guards are not
Speaker 2: moving three hundred guys at one. Time in the, salehouse
Speaker 2: you move only a section at a, Time so you
Speaker 2: might see thirty, guys two, guards one in the, front
Speaker 2: one in the, back and then the guy own with
Speaker 2: the rifle that's gonna knock your brains, out And pontiac is.
Speaker 5: Held, well you were in lockdown sometimes twenty four hours a.
Speaker 5: Day yeah, RIGHT i mean there was a. Month there
Speaker 5: was a month where you were never let out of your.
Speaker 5: CELL i, mean it's incredible that you have any mental,
Speaker 5: faculties you, know preserved after.
Speaker 2: That it was more than a. Month they used to
Speaker 2: lock us, down The pontiac for a. Year lock you, down.
Speaker 4: So no, shower no.
Speaker 5: Nothing you get a shower once a, week and other
Speaker 5: than that you're locked down twenty a.
Speaker 4: Week, yeah twenty four seven in yourself with someone, else.
Speaker 2: With someone else and the, toilet and EVERY i mean
Speaker 2: every day they would lock you. Down if an incident,
Speaker 2: occurred somebody got, stabbed they lock you.
Speaker 1: Down you'd be locked up six.
Speaker 2: Months they let you off two, days somebody else get,
Speaker 2: hit they lock you up another six.
Speaker 1: Months And i'm talking about complete.
Speaker 2: Lockup pontiac was held because it was like it was
Speaker 2: almost like a, supermax but it was one of the
Speaker 2: roughest max joints In. Illinois and every day you see
Speaker 2: either someone getting, raped somebody getting, stabbed somebody getting beat
Speaker 2: half to death or somebody getting shot by the. Guards that's,
Speaker 2: Insane and then you talk about the. TRAUMA i watched
Speaker 2: the man in front of my. CELL i had just
Speaker 2: finished working. OUT i came in to get in the
Speaker 2: shower and the guard was telling him to put his hands,
Speaker 2: down and he was talking with his, hands and he
Speaker 2: shot him so. Fast you just see the blood, jump
Speaker 2: like from the first floor to the third.
Speaker 1: Floor he hit him so fast and.
Speaker 4: Killed the man instantly because he was talking on his.
Speaker 2: Hands, yeah you, know because potential. Violence you, know guys
Speaker 2: do that when they're getting ready to do. Something so
Speaker 2: these are the. SIGNS i guess he blew his brains.
Speaker 2: Out but this place is what you saw every. Day
Speaker 2: either you, came you got up to go to work
Speaker 2: in the. MORNING i used to leave out five in the.
Speaker 2: MORNING i had an institutional, job SO i work all
Speaker 2: over the, penitentiary death, row protect the.
Speaker 1: CUSTODY i work all over the.
Speaker 2: Joint SO i get ready to leave out in the
Speaker 2: morning AND i walk past the guy's sell he's hanging, there.
Speaker 1: Just hanging. There you.
Speaker 2: KNOW i used to see so much of it you
Speaker 2: become numb to. It and that's a shame.
Speaker 5: And the scene you're describing Makes Shaw Shank redemptions sound
Speaker 5: like A disney.
Speaker 4: MOVIE i, mean it's just it. Was, yeah it's as
Speaker 4: bad as it.
Speaker 5: Gets, yeah it's so bizarre that we have it absolutely,
Speaker 5: wrong absolutely. Backwards and In Western european countries and In
Speaker 5: scandinavian countries and.
Speaker 4: All over the world they take the opposite.
Speaker 5: Approach their thing is when you get, out you're going
Speaker 5: to have to live next door to, somebody maybe. Me,
Speaker 5: Right so at one point a couple of good things. Happen,
Speaker 5: Right you found sort of hope and sanity and music, again,
Speaker 5: Right AND i thought that was a brave thing that you,
Speaker 5: did because there were at the time no musical instruments
Speaker 5: in this prison hell whatever you want to call, it,
Speaker 5: right and you were able to convince the, warden.
Speaker 1: Superintendent kelly it was my, buddy.
Speaker 5: Right so he at your behas he ordered some, instruments
Speaker 5: and you got to put together a little band and
Speaker 5: get a little some kind of, JOY i, guess.
Speaker 2: Yeah because we had been on lockdown so much and
Speaker 2: they had had some instruments they had it was.
Speaker 1: Garbage So kelly.
Speaker 2: Had decided that if that would keep us peaceful around
Speaker 2: a joint well ordered some more.
Speaker 1: Instruments so he ordered some more.
Speaker 2: Drums and guitars and, amps and it was called The
Speaker 2: Power Soul, Band Our Soul Power Soul, Band and so
Speaker 2: we played and most of the guys was in the
Speaker 2: band had natural. Life so those guys are still locked.
Speaker 2: Up so we had A we had a nice band,
Speaker 2: man and the unit was good and it kept things kind.
Speaker 2: OF i, mean we didn't go on lock down for
Speaker 2: like maybe a year and a.
Speaker 1: Half you, know it.
Speaker 2: Was because guys wanted to get out when we. Performed
Speaker 2: they wanted to be, there they wanted to see. It you,
Speaker 2: know it's like you going to a, party.
Speaker 5: Right so they had a reason and right to not
Speaker 5: want to be violent because if they, did they would
Speaker 5: be depriving this little bit of, hope joy, music you,
Speaker 5: know life distraction everyone to call. It it is important
Speaker 5: for people to recognize we need to improve the, conditions
Speaker 5: but also bring arts and bring education into the, prison
Speaker 5: recognizing that ninety five plus percent of people in prison
Speaker 5: are going to get out at some point and have
Speaker 5: to rejoin the.
Speaker 2: Community WHEN i was, LIKE i heard a politician, saying
Speaker 2: why SHOULD i spend twenty thousand dollars on a convict
Speaker 2: to get an education WHEN i have to pay for
Speaker 2: my sons and daughters to go to. School and they took,
Speaker 2: school they took the college because you suhould get a
Speaker 2: bachelor's associated all kind of degrees in, prison and guys
Speaker 2: come out and make a difference in their. Lives they'd
Speaker 2: come out and do better than what they did when
Speaker 2: they went in because they was able to get a,
Speaker 2: job come employed. Today it's not you come, out you just.
Speaker 5: Out that's an extremely ignorant thing for the guy to,
Speaker 5: say because if he had done any studying at, all
Speaker 5: he would know that in places where those kind of programs,
Speaker 5: exist the people coming out have a tremendous rate of,
Speaker 5: success staying crime, free paying, taxes contributing to the, community
Speaker 5: reconnecting with, family.
Speaker 4: All those positive aspects of.
Speaker 5: Society so even if you're not looking at it from
Speaker 5: a human point of, view just looking at it from
Speaker 5: a protecting and improving society point of, view the benefits
Speaker 5: are immense and only the most maya pick and closed
Speaker 5: minded individuals can see it any other. Way so music
Speaker 5: came in to give a little something back to your, soul,
Speaker 5: right give you a little bit of. Hope and then
Speaker 5: you had sort of the guy you would call your, angel,
Speaker 5: right sort of appear In, miraculous who was actually a
Speaker 5: real estate.
Speaker 1: Lawyer, right and he was an angel for.
Speaker 4: Real so let's talk about. Him his name what was
Speaker 4: his name of This Joseph howard Or Howard, Joseph Howard, Joseph,
Speaker 4: right tell me about this, Guy Howard.
Speaker 2: Joseph first of, all let me tell YOU i never
Speaker 2: admitted to ever being in love with a, man BUT
Speaker 2: i love this, man. Right this is my Little jewish.
Speaker 2: Love this is my. Man Howard joseph was an, angel you.
Speaker 2: Know he came in and WHAT i liked about him
Speaker 2: was he was, Bossy Like, lord he's, bossy, Right and
Speaker 2: he came in and one DAY i was working out
Speaker 2: on the yard and he, said, man you got a,
Speaker 2: visit so you gotta. VISIT i said a? Visit he, said,
Speaker 2: yeah your. ATTORNEY i ain't got no, attorney so, yeah
Speaker 2: you got an. Attorney SO i. GO i go to
Speaker 2: the front to the visiting, room and there he. Is
Speaker 2: he's standing. There The jewish guy had on lorraine, coat
Speaker 2: little flip, flops looking Like, colombo Remember.
Speaker 1: Colombo and they come in and that's who he remind me.
Speaker 2: Of So i'm looking at him and so he, said
Speaker 2: say that. Wine he, said, okay he's sitting. Down SO
Speaker 2: i sat. Down i'm, like what's.
Speaker 1: This old man telling me to? Say? Boston me?
Speaker 2: Around and he said sit, Down SO i sat. Down
Speaker 2: he Said i'm your. ATTORNEY i, said you my. Attorney
Speaker 2: SO i was, like, yeah so this is a, joke,
Speaker 2: Right i'm thinking it's a. Joke he, said, No i'm your.
Speaker 2: Attorney he, said your sister and my son had been
Speaker 2: talking AND i read your, case he, said AND i
Speaker 2: just need you to be. Patient we're going to get
Speaker 2: you out of, here you. Know AND i just looked
Speaker 2: at him like, this this has got to be a.
Speaker 2: Joke so he drove three hours one way to come see,
Speaker 2: me and he was about seventy two, then and he
Speaker 2: drove back, home and he drove. Again he came again
Speaker 2: AND i, said are you driving away down by? Yourself
Speaker 2: he said, yeah give me a chance to. Think so
Speaker 2: he would. Come people would laugh at. Him he, said
Speaker 2: get you out of. Here SO i PUT i put
Speaker 2: faith in that he'd ask for. Nothing he'dn't ask for,
Speaker 2: anything you. KNOW i tried to pay for his gas
Speaker 2: and buying food and he's.
Speaker 4: Well he had a he had a phrase that he
Speaker 4: would repeat to, you, right which.
Speaker 1: Was that's when we made it to the county.
Speaker 2: Jail oh, yeah he would every day he would, say
Speaker 2: so you're ready to go.
Speaker 1: HOME i, said of, Course i'm ready to go. Home he,
Speaker 1: said are you ready to go? Home you got some?
Speaker 1: Clothes your mama bring you some. CLOTHES i said. No
Speaker 1: so it went on for like two, years almost to that.
Speaker 4: Day you guys had like a routine on.
Speaker 1: Him, yeah we had a, routine.
Speaker 2: MAN i MEAN i loved his heart because he was.
Speaker 2: Consistent you, know he was a, man had no greed.
Speaker 2: Involved he didn't ask for. Anything he always told, me he,
Speaker 2: said nobody know your case better than you.
Speaker 1: Do attention to.
Speaker 4: It he was a real estate, lawyer, right actually he was.
Speaker 2: A criminal attorney higher then he just did real. Estate got,
Speaker 2: it just did real estate for, years and so when
Speaker 2: he saw my, case he wanted to get back in the.
Speaker 2: Game he, said you would be my last, case AND i.
Speaker 2: WAS i was actually his last.
Speaker 5: Case it's kind of a, miracle, yeah actually, Right, yeah
Speaker 5: he would just pop up out of nowhere AND i
Speaker 5: could see why you thought you were being, punked so to, speak, right.
Speaker 1: He did punk, me he. Did he made me sit.
Speaker 5: Down so ultimately your Little Jewish stardian angel appears on
Speaker 5: the scene and.
Speaker 4: He did what he said he was going to.
Speaker 5: Do he did because otherwise you wouldn't be sitting here
Speaker 5: because you had your sentence was you had two sentences,
Speaker 5: right for two different, crimes because.
Speaker 2: Murder temp, murder and they charged me with this arm
Speaker 2: and the farm within the city limits by, felon they
Speaker 2: gave me a temp.
Speaker 5: Murder this was nineteen ninety, Two, antoine and you were
Speaker 5: send sixty years for murder and twenty five years for attempted.
Speaker 5: Murder so he came along just in the nicked time
Speaker 5: because you weren't going to spend the rest of your
Speaker 5: life in. Prison, yeah there was no doubt about. It
Speaker 5: so ultimately he. Won and what did judge say when
Speaker 5: when he vacated your?
Speaker 4: Conviction?
Speaker 2: Oh, man the judge was, like, uh he asked me
Speaker 2: IF i had any last, words you, know DID i
Speaker 2: want to say?
Speaker 1: Anything?
Speaker 2: MAN i kind of went off in the courtroom BECAUSE
Speaker 2: i told the, JUDGE i said the state's attorney knew
Speaker 2: all the time that they were lying on. Me he
Speaker 2: knew all the time because he kept telling, me you
Speaker 2: give us what we, want you can go. Home he
Speaker 2: knew all the. Time So judge, said miss. Day he,
Speaker 2: said he, said how you. FEEL i, Said i'm. Okay he,
Speaker 2: said well the days you're. Lucky day you're going. Home and,
Speaker 2: MAN i, MEAN.
Speaker 1: I wasn't even, shocked you, know it was just LIKE
Speaker 1: i was just standing.
Speaker 5: There and what was what was YOUR i, Mean i'm
Speaker 5: just trying to have this beautiful picture in my mind
Speaker 5: of you And.
Speaker 2: Howard Mister, howard he just reachtove and hugged. Me you, know,
Speaker 2: well let me tell you this part before we get
Speaker 2: to that good. Part let me tell you how the
Speaker 2: state's attorneys treated. Him they used to laugh at. Him
Speaker 2: state's attorney used to look at me while we're sitting
Speaker 2: in the courtroom in his fancy. Suit mister how would
Speaker 2: have on flip flops and they would laugh.
Speaker 1: At him like he was a.
Speaker 2: Joke they would laugh at him like, so the state's
Speaker 2: attorney would sit back in his chair do this to.
Speaker 4: Me he's pulling his finger across his throat like you, know.
Speaker 2: Like he's slashing my throat Like i'm, Dead ali, said
Speaker 2: don't worry about.
Speaker 1: HIM i got. Him he, Said i'm good with bullies
Speaker 1: because they're.
Speaker 2: Bullies at that, day you should have seen the expressions
Speaker 2: on these guys. Faces they just couldn't believe that this
Speaker 2: little man just beat them, up this.
Speaker 1: Bad the.
Speaker 2: Wrong little, jew you, know and he cursed like a.
Speaker 2: Seller so he was cursing all the while we were in.
Speaker 2: Court he was mfing and all kinds of. Stuff he
Speaker 2: just didn't play no. Games and this judge told, me you,
Speaker 2: know he was, saying you've been blessed because this man
Speaker 2: did his due.
Speaker 1: Diligence he got me out of.
Speaker 5: There i'm getting a chill right. Now so he's become
Speaker 5: sort of a mythical. Figure he has a program named after,
Speaker 5: Him oh, yeah In illinois and.
Speaker 4: Stuff he's not around, anymore.
Speaker 1: Yes because his work is my.
Speaker 5: Work his spirit lives on in you and also in
Speaker 5: the program that's named after. Him, So, antoine the way
Speaker 5: that you found out about your conviction being vacated is
Speaker 5: a very. Unusual in, Fact i've never heard anything quite like.
Speaker 4: It can you share that? Story me and a.
Speaker 1: Guy Kenny.
Speaker 2: Williams we were on the yard at In stateville actually
Speaker 2: when he transferred me To stateville who was working out
Speaker 2: on the. Yard he was reading the newspaper that we're
Speaker 2: not supposed to.
Speaker 1: Have in the.
Speaker 2: Newspaper it had my case had been. Overturned so this
Speaker 2: guy Had he had called my name. OUT i thought
Speaker 2: he was just. Joking he called my name out. Again
Speaker 2: he was, like, man so you got to come see.
Speaker 2: This SO i walked over and looked in the. Newspaper
Speaker 2: it was like.
Speaker 1: Wow SO i called my.
Speaker 2: Attorney my attorney THOUGHT i was joking and he didn't
Speaker 2: believe it because he didn't know anything about.
Speaker 4: It was It April fools or.
Speaker 1: Something it felt like.
Speaker 2: It, Yeah so WHEN i told, him he went, crazy you,
Speaker 2: know he was like cursing me, out Thinking i'm.
Speaker 1: Joking so he went and got the.
Speaker 2: Paper he ran out of his, office walked and got the,
Speaker 2: paper came, back AND i called him.
Speaker 1: Back he was, like it is they overturned the.
Speaker 2: Case so he was trying to figure out how could
Speaker 2: they possibly do this because time run at that moment
Speaker 2: and you only have a certain amount of time to
Speaker 2: meet it before you probably miss it and miss all
Speaker 2: the pill. Processes so he went and got right on
Speaker 2: top of it and then maybe like a year, later
Speaker 2: they moved me back to the county.
Speaker 5: Jail now that's another, thing, Right so anyone listening would, Say,
Speaker 5: okay well it's in the. Newspaper your conviction has been.
Speaker 5: Overturned so wouldn't they want to send you home at that? Point,
Speaker 5: no not exactly, right not In, chicago not at.
Speaker 2: That, time not the processes of. Politics back to the county.
Speaker 2: Jail so now you go, back and you go back
Speaker 2: in front of the. Judge he listened to the new,
Speaker 2: evidence he listened to all this stuff that went. On
Speaker 2: SO i was in the county jail for maybe a
Speaker 2: little over two. YEARS i was a. BARBER i was
Speaker 2: cutting the hand in the county and working in a.
Speaker 2: BARBERSHOP i was In division, eleven pretty, good, clean pretty white.
Speaker 1: Building it was real neat and clean over.
Speaker 2: There and they moved me one, night maybe like four
Speaker 2: in the morning or am moved me To division. ONE
Speaker 2: i didn't know. WHY i hadn't done, anything hadn't been
Speaker 2: in no, trouble straight and narrow so far put me
Speaker 2: in the cell with a. GUY i didn't know who
Speaker 2: he was at the, time but my son was. Killed
Speaker 2: he got killed in two. THOUSAND i came home two
Speaker 2: thousand and. Two he was seventeen when they moved me
Speaker 2: From division. Eleven they moved me To division, one and
Speaker 2: they put me in the cell with the guy that
Speaker 2: actually killed.
Speaker 4: Him they put you in the, cell, yeah putting the
Speaker 4: guy who killed your.
Speaker 5: Son and it wasn't a long. Time but this is re,
Speaker 5: right press, right AND i mean my head is, exploding,
Speaker 5: Right and they did this.
Speaker 4: On, purpose, right because it was not a.
Speaker 5: Coincidence and it's also strange that they did it at
Speaker 5: four in the, morning, right it's not the typical time
Speaker 5: that they move. You and they've been moved for no
Speaker 5: reason except there was a reason because from WHAT i
Speaker 5: can figure, out they didn't like the fact that you
Speaker 5: were going to get out and that you had proven them.
Speaker 5: Wrong you and with the help of this magical seventy
Speaker 5: something year old attorney who didn't dress right and was
Speaker 5: being made by the.
Speaker 4: Prosecutor so they didn't like.
Speaker 5: That so that it sounds to me AND i hate
Speaker 5: to think in terms that are so. Sinister but you
Speaker 5: were a big guy back, then, Right you were bench
Speaker 5: pressing five hundred.
Speaker 1: POUNDS i was in the fire. Club we just called
Speaker 1: the five hundred.
Speaker 5: Club so they moved you to this, cell thinking this
Speaker 5: guy meaning, you you're going to kill this other, guy BECAUSE.
Speaker 4: I mean it SEEMED i, mean of, course like.
Speaker 2: WHAT i did recognize WAS i went back in my
Speaker 2: head for a little while BECAUSE i remember WHEN i
Speaker 2: was In, pontiac how the state's attorney had came and investigated,
Speaker 2: me was asking all these questions around, me AND i
Speaker 2: was never supposed to know that they were even, there
Speaker 2: BUT i found, out and it was kind of this
Speaker 2: made a little bit more familiar to what the process
Speaker 2: was of them keeping me. Incocerated IF i catch another,
Speaker 2: case then my appeal is non and. Void it's just
Speaker 2: not gonna. Happen so they put me in this predicament
Speaker 2: with this. Guy either he was going to kill me
Speaker 2: OR i was gonna kill. Him it would have been
Speaker 2: a lose lose situation for me to do something or
Speaker 2: have something done to. Me, SO i, mean it's a chess.
Speaker 2: Game they made their, moves SO i had to make.
Speaker 2: Mine my move was to call the guard and tell
Speaker 2: THEM i refuse housing SO i can be taken out
Speaker 2: of this. Situation you, know because at this, POINT i,
Speaker 2: MEAN i got great common.
Speaker 1: Sense i'm this close to. Home i'm not going to blow.
Speaker 5: It even for the literally the most extreme situation you
Speaker 5: can possibly find.
Speaker 2: Yourself it wouldn't have did. Anything it wouldn't have brought them. Back,
Speaker 2: no IF i had to beat them to a, pope
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have brought him. Back so man of the,
Speaker 2: matter you, know it's just at a point you just
Speaker 2: have to think about the future.
Speaker 5: Now that that's an incredible it's a mind blowing. Story
Speaker 5: AND i never shared this.
Speaker 2: Story so if people don't even know about, this you
Speaker 2: seem to get all getting it all out of me.
Speaker 1: Today know what going on around?
Speaker 4: Here none of us could possibly. Understand nobody that hasn't
Speaker 4: been doing that.
Speaker 5: Understand but it's a miracle that you were able to
Speaker 5: resist an impulse that must have been as powerful as
Speaker 5: any that anybody could.
Speaker 4: Imagine but it, IS.
Speaker 1: I, mean it's it's a. Thing you, Know.
Speaker 2: I've always heard the term of feeling your blood. Boil you,
Speaker 2: know how you just feel your body go to a
Speaker 2: whole nother temperature that would be. It your ethers get
Speaker 2: the rise and you get the. Sweating and that's WHY
Speaker 2: i was going through BECAUSE i have told myself.
Speaker 1: Over and over and over and over and over. Again
Speaker 1: IF i ever see, them What i'm going to do to?
Speaker 4: Them?
Speaker 2: Right you, know IF i ever because you always, talk
Speaker 2: you avenge your family and stand up for your, family
Speaker 2: and when you put in these situations in this, circumstance you,
Speaker 2: KNOW i always said that to, myself SO i had
Speaker 2: to escalate.
Speaker 1: Immediately you.
Speaker 4: Know it's almost like who could blame? You you're in
Speaker 4: year eight or nine of your wrongful.
Speaker 5: Incarceration you've been through everything that they can throw at,
Speaker 5: you and now you just lived through the worst thing
Speaker 5: that a parent can go through is to lose a
Speaker 5: child and then to be put in a tiny cell
Speaker 5: with a. Guy but you're, right it wouldn't accomplish. Anything
Speaker 5: but it's easy to say from here you didn't. Here
Speaker 5: it's easy to. Say so this is SOMETHING i really
Speaker 5: want to highlight because in twenty five years of doing,
Speaker 5: this the first thing that people ask me almost every
Speaker 5: TIME i tell a story like yours is do they get?
Speaker 4: Compensated this? Man did this? Woman tell? Me they get?
Speaker 5: Yeah and you should see like the eyes are bugging,
Speaker 5: out like you, know because if you if you're not
Speaker 5: familiar with, this and a lot of people, aren't when
Speaker 5: you first hear one of these, stories you get so. Shook,
Speaker 5: right tell me they get, Paid tell me they get
Speaker 5: something when they get. Out and you, KNOW i think
Speaker 5: it's shocking to a lot of people to learn that
Speaker 5: a lot of exgneries get, nothing, period full, stop end of. Story,
Speaker 5: right they just have to go figure it out with
Speaker 5: this twenty year gap or whatever it might. Be but
Speaker 5: even if you do get, paid because people see the
Speaker 5: stories in the, paper sometimes somebody successfully sues for civil
Speaker 5: rights violation or whatever it is and gets millions of,
Speaker 5: dollars which they, deserve and still DOESN'T i don't know
Speaker 5: too many people that would, say, OH.
Speaker 4: I GOT i got a deal for.
Speaker 5: You you're gonna do ten twenty years in the most dangerous,
Speaker 5: place one of the most dangerous places on, Earth like
Speaker 5: you literally be better off trying to find diamonds in
Speaker 5: a river In africa with with crocodiles and, hippos then
Speaker 5: you would be In pontiac. PRISON i don't know too
Speaker 5: many people that would, say, Ye i'll take that. Deal,
Speaker 5: Yeah i'm gonna go do that ten years and give
Speaker 5: me the money at the.
Speaker 4: End so that's out the.
Speaker 5: Window but the fact is that even the people who
Speaker 5: do get compensated have to wait an incredibly long, time
Speaker 5: years and years to get their, money and in the
Speaker 5: meantime they're stuck in sort of a twilight. Zone, Right
Speaker 5: and there's no better example than. YOURS i want to
Speaker 5: talk about. THAT i want to hear it in your own.
Speaker 5: Words the judge has just, said today's your lucky. Day
Speaker 5: do you want to go? Home you And howard are, hugging,
Speaker 5: right Mister. Howard and you didn't just walk out the. Door, No,
Speaker 5: no there was a.
Speaker 1: Process, oh the process is.
Speaker 2: Terrible so after The sokar, release it took me almost
Speaker 2: eight hours to get out of, that if not more,
Speaker 2: so they run you right back through the. Process SO
Speaker 2: i had to go back down in this dungeon in
Speaker 2: the bottom of the county. Jail in the, bottom it's
Speaker 2: the last basement in the county. Jail so it's really
Speaker 2: pipes and plumbing and rats and everything just in this, place,
Speaker 2: Right and it's a room a little bigger than this,
Speaker 2: room and it's a pile of. Clothes so in these
Speaker 2: pile of clothes used to close. Guys it's took off
Speaker 2: coming in who slept in them maybe a week inside
Speaker 2: one of these jails on the street and they make
Speaker 2: you pick out some clothes out of this powder in order.
Speaker 4: To walk out of, here and they haven't been.
Speaker 1: Washed haven't been.
Speaker 2: Washed oh, MAN i picked the biggest PIECE i could
Speaker 2: so it wouldn't really be attached to. Me SO i
Speaker 2: picked out a jigging, suit a black jigging suit with
Speaker 2: a hood because the guard says raining outside real. Bad
Speaker 2: SO i picked out it had a hood on. It
Speaker 2: the suit LIKE i would extra. Large this suit had
Speaker 2: to be a three x of four.
Speaker 1: X it was so. Big the sleeves was hanging and
Speaker 1: it stinks so.
Speaker 2: BAD i mean reek of just, urine and you, know
Speaker 2: BUT i had no choice IF i wanted to stay
Speaker 2: another day in the county, jail another two days in
Speaker 2: the county, jail because you get lost in that system so.
Speaker 2: Easily SO i, said, No i'm gonna grab. Something SO
Speaker 2: i grabbed that in the jigging pants.
Speaker 4: And it held your nose, basically.
Speaker 1: Yes and just got used to. It you, KNOW i
Speaker 1: just lived in.
Speaker 5: Filth and the issue was that because it took hours
Speaker 5: and hours for this process to, happen Mister, howard COULDN'T
Speaker 5: i like calling it Mister howard a legendary, too So
Speaker 5: i'm picking up after. You so he wasn't able to, stay,
Speaker 5: right he had another obligation of something he had to.
Speaker 2: Go i'm, right so he went home to take care
Speaker 2: of his. Wife but then we never know how long
Speaker 2: you'll be. There he's not coming out in thirty, minutes twenty,
Speaker 2: minutes you, know it's a. Process so, NO i didn't
Speaker 2: want to make him, stay so he. Went he went,
Speaker 2: home and at this, point nobody knew that this was
Speaker 2: going to happen this, day so my family wasn't even,
Speaker 2: there SO i just ended up just coming.
Speaker 1: Out they FINALLY i put the clothes, on they put me.
Speaker 2: Out they kept my forty three dollars and some eye.
Speaker 5: Change, well your forty three dollars wasn't even. There it
Speaker 5: was in a different, right so you had no ability
Speaker 5: to access, that and they send you. Out what the
Speaker 5: date of the release Was? May, right it Was may,
Speaker 5: ninth But may is not. Exactly it's not warm at
Speaker 5: night In may In, chicago so it's cold and, rainy.
Speaker 1: Rainy, yeah and it's, Dark, yeah it's.
Speaker 2: Dark AND i stood in the rain man for about three,
Speaker 2: hours just, wondering trying to figure it. OUT i had
Speaker 2: no money to get. HOME i had, nothing absolutely. Nothing
Speaker 2: SO i was just standing, there soaking with freaking of
Speaker 2: Old i've never experienced in my life until somebody pulled
Speaker 2: up on me and, SAID i got one of my.
Speaker 2: Buddies you, know he didn't even. Know he, Says so
Speaker 2: what you're doing out? HERE i just broke? Out he,
Speaker 2: Said so you need a, Ride so you, know guys
Speaker 2: quick to help you if you committed a, CROWN i.
Speaker 6: Guess and this isn't just any street. Corner it's twenty
Speaker 6: six in Cow so that is the hub of The
Speaker 6: chicago criminal court. System it's the busiest court system in the.
Speaker 6: World it's not in a great. Neighborhood during the, day everyone's,
Speaker 6: saying be, careful be, careful be careful when you go out.
Speaker 6: There he has not been in society for over a,
Speaker 6: decade and he has walked out onto this dangerous street
Speaker 6: corner without a bus, cart without AN, id without a,
Speaker 6: phone without frankly much of an, identity and just there you.
Speaker 2: Go will people get killed right in front of the.
Speaker 2: Building he just had an incident a couple of weeks,
Speaker 2: ago a guy got. Killed right with all this police
Speaker 2: activity he gets murdered right on the.
Speaker 5: Street it's so interesting and it's uplifting because at the
Speaker 5: end of the, day randomly in the city the size Of,
Speaker 5: chicago your friend happened to be driving, by, like, yo
Speaker 5: what are you doing? Here and, LIKE i, mean that's
Speaker 5: another little, miracle, Right but.
Speaker 1: Well i'm, BLESSED i know.
Speaker 5: That, Yeah, well that's an amazing thing for somebody to
Speaker 5: say that's been through ten years inside the most horrific prison,
Speaker 5: system nightmare for something he didn't.
Speaker 4: Do but it's a great way to look at.
Speaker 5: It and the fact, is it's almost like the energy
Speaker 5: feel that Mister howard, created and then this guy was
Speaker 5: sort of an extension of, that like your other guardian.
Speaker 5: Angels but there's no planet on which we should allow
Speaker 5: somebody to emerge from this what sort of an extra
Speaker 5: fuck you right, here get out of, here smelling like
Speaker 5: you just rolled around in the you, know in the,
Speaker 5: gutter and then good luck not.
Speaker 4: Even like not even good.
Speaker 5: Luck, NO i, Mean i'll get the hell out right
Speaker 5: and if you get, killed you because we don't care
Speaker 5: about you before and we don't care about you. Now
Speaker 5: i'm not saying they necessarily have to have a chariot
Speaker 5: waiting for you with white horses or a golden thing or.
Speaker 4: Whatever but a.
Speaker 1: Bus ticket would have been. FINE a bus, TICKET a.
Speaker 4: Phone, call, yeah that would have been.
Speaker 1: Fun about a phone, call can somebody come give? Me
Speaker 1: they don't give you any of, it they're not. RESPONSIBLE
Speaker 1: a phone call would have been. Good phone, call, Great.
Speaker 5: LAURA i want to turn to you because you have
Speaker 5: a new book out WHICH i read AND i.
Speaker 4: Love it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 1: You.
Speaker 5: Yeah and in the, book you paired, exoneries Including, antoine
Speaker 5: with legendary authors in order to tell their story in
Speaker 5: a way that is particularly poignant and also really sort of.
Speaker 5: Succinct so can you talk about that process BECAUSE i
Speaker 5: love the book AND i hope everybody will check it.
Speaker 4: Out anatomy Of, Innocence thank.
Speaker 3: You.
Speaker 6: Yeah it's Called anatomy Of, Innocence and we basically are trying,
Speaker 6: to in, fact do what you're. Doing we're trying to
Speaker 6: get inside the, mind inside the, soul behind the eyes
Speaker 6: of someone who went through a wrongful. Conviction so we've
Speaker 6: broken it down into. Stages the knock on the, door you,
Speaker 6: know the first time you When antoine heard his, name
Speaker 6: was getting batted. Around what do you do when you hear?
Speaker 6: Guilty because every xonary thinks they'll here not guilty because
Speaker 6: they can tell that the criminal justice system is not
Speaker 6: working well because they're in it and they're. Innocent but
Speaker 6: they all think they're hill not, guilty all of, them
Speaker 6: and they hear. Guilty there's hearing all sorts of testimony
Speaker 6: about yourself at, trial which isn't. True there's the walking
Speaker 6: into prison for the first, time dealing with the crazies
Speaker 6: that are in, there finding someone to get you, out
Speaker 6: and then the fact that freedom is just the. Beginning
Speaker 6: we wanted to show that sometimes they happen like, This
Speaker 6: sometimes they happen like you see ON tv where you
Speaker 6: see people outside holding up the, arms and other, Times
Speaker 6: And antoine's is not the only Case i've heard of
Speaker 6: about being released onto the street with. NOTHING i, mean
Speaker 6: it's more frequent than.
Speaker 4: Not it's just another bizarre aspect of the whole. Thing
Speaker 4: so it is a bizarre.
Speaker 6: Aspect and, frankly so many of these things are so.
Speaker 6: Fortuitous and he said he feels. Lucky antoine, SAID i feel,
Speaker 6: lucky AND i, think you, Know i've heard people say
Speaker 6: that exoneries are the luckiest unlucky.
Speaker 1: People AND i mean it was.
Speaker 6: Strangey even WHEN i Met, ANTOINE i had taken another ex.
Speaker 6: Hoonery antoine has been working in re entry since he got,
Speaker 6: out AND i took another exonery to get services he
Speaker 6: ran Into. Antoine antoine did not know he was an ex.
Speaker 6: Hoonery Howard joseph had, died and he also didn't know
Speaker 6: That illinois was one of the states that had, compensation
Speaker 6: and he had about twenty eight days from the TIME
Speaker 6: i met him to file or. Forever it's gone.
Speaker 4: Forever hold your.
Speaker 5: Piece so WHAT i took from the book also each
Speaker 5: of those. Stories it's so. Fascinating, Again i'm getting the.
Speaker 5: Chills you can't make these stories. Up and when you read,
Speaker 5: them and when you read them written so beautifully by
Speaker 5: such important literary figures as you have put together In
Speaker 5: anatomy Of, NICs it's really it's a great experience reading the.
Speaker 5: Book so tell us About life After, innocence because that's
Speaker 5: a program you run At, loyola Right.
Speaker 6: Life After innocence is a clinic At Loyola Chicago school Of,
Speaker 6: law and we in fact have The Howard Joseph award
Speaker 6: that we give every year in Mister howard's honor for
Speaker 6: people who help the innocent without basically seeking compensation or.
Speaker 6: Recognition so my law students AND i since two thousand
Speaker 6: and nine have been representing x houneries to help them start. Over,
Speaker 6: previously we did a lot. More when we started in
Speaker 6: two thousand and, nine one or two people got out
Speaker 6: a year in THE. Us now it's three a. Week
Speaker 6: so now we're focusing primarily on criminal records, relief getting
Speaker 6: their records, cleared because what most people don't know is
Speaker 6: that When antoine walked, out even though his case had been,
Speaker 6: overturned when he got pulled over by the, cops it's
Speaker 6: still a convicted. Murderer so till someone goes in and
Speaker 6: gets your record cleaned, up it's still on your. Record
Speaker 6: doesn't matter even IF dna showed who it really, was
Speaker 6: still on your. Record so we get that cleaned up
Speaker 6: and then we push for, legislation which we've been successful
Speaker 6: on so slowly we're adding to the services that ex
Speaker 6: houneries get In.
Speaker 4: Illinois that's incredible.
Speaker 5: Work AND i also want to just touch on Briefly Joseph,
Speaker 5: howard who now has the award made. Death you can't
Speaker 5: see it on the, radio AS i always, say But
Speaker 5: i've been Watching antoine's body, language and every time this
Speaker 5: man's name comes, up he sort of sits up straight
Speaker 5: and starts smiling. Uncontrollably and for those of you.
Speaker 2: Trying to start from, Crying i'm telling you, something, man
Speaker 2: is this Is it always seemed to, Happen but this
Speaker 2: guy has really touched my soul in the way that
Speaker 2: he operated and what he did for, me BECAUSE i
Speaker 2: only pay it forward and because of. Him because of, him,
Speaker 2: MAN i, mean it means a. Lot so, YEAH i
Speaker 2: carry him very, high you.
Speaker 5: Know AND i want to give a shout out to
Speaker 5: all THE i know there's a lot of attorneys that
Speaker 5: listen to the show who do incredible amounts of pro
Speaker 5: bono work on behalf of people like, yourself and to
Speaker 5: all of, THEM i just want to say that you
Speaker 5: have all of our respect.
Speaker 4: And appreciation because we couldn't do it without.
Speaker 5: You and if anybody is considering getting into the, WORK
Speaker 5: i encourage you to to meet somebody Like antoine and
Speaker 5: see what it's meant in a very personal and magical.
Speaker 5: Way so we will continue to Honor Joseph howard by
Speaker 5: continuing to support the work. Now as is a tradition
Speaker 5: on wrong for, conviction we always like to give you
Speaker 5: the exgnery the last, word so we'll turn it over to.
Speaker 1: You, Okay, well thank you so.
Speaker 2: MUCH i do appreciate being, here getting an opportunity to
Speaker 2: share and to enlighten people of what really goes on
Speaker 2: outside of just the, media and to thank people Like
Speaker 2: laura and yourself for having this. Platform but most of,
Speaker 2: ALL i like to say WHERE i am today is
Speaker 2: because of somebody's.
Speaker 1: Help the things THAT i do.
Speaker 2: Today i'm a court advocate for juvenile youth In chicago
Speaker 2: when they go to court.
Speaker 1: To make sure they're not wronged LIKE i.
Speaker 2: Was so when they get, ARRESTED i get a phone
Speaker 2: call and we appear in. COURT i support them also
Speaker 2: with the Family, AGAIN i work in one of the
Speaker 2: most harshest communities in the city Of chicago and throughout
Speaker 2: the state AT Bbf Family, services Where i'm able to
Speaker 2: give back to the community with Mister joe gave to
Speaker 2: me Through loyola and working With laura and the things
Speaker 2: she did for me helped me. Create, also me And
Speaker 2: Jared adams helped me create life after.
Speaker 1: Justice even after.
Speaker 2: Her, work we continue to do, it so we are
Speaker 2: springboard off of what she. Did so what she has
Speaker 2: done for me is also paying it for it again
Speaker 2: and making things happen when you can help somebody, Else
Speaker 2: and that's what we don't do enough of in this,
Speaker 2: country in this. World were more worried about other activities
Speaker 2: around the world when.
Speaker 1: We really flat on our back right.
Speaker 2: Here SO i just really appreciate the opportunity to say
Speaker 2: thank you.
Speaker 1: And keep it going and keep calling me BECAUSE i
Speaker 1: don't mind.
Speaker 2: COMING i believe in the, work and this is WHAT i,
Speaker 2: love you, KNOW i love giving it. Back like you,
Speaker 2: said you, Know i'm. Inspired you KNOW i had a great.
Speaker 2: Mom i'm inspired by my, sister who you, KNOW i
Speaker 2: always say she talked too, much but then that particular
Speaker 2: time she talked at the right time in order to
Speaker 2: meet Mister joe's, son WHO i think not enough but
Speaker 2: as much AS i possibly.
Speaker 1: Can i'm very, grateful and LIKE i, Said i'm. Blessed
Speaker 1: i'm blessed to be in this in this particular position
Speaker 1: Where i'm able to help other. People that's HOW i help.
Speaker 2: MYSELF i need to be an Angel i'm trying to learn,
Speaker 2: it you, know, so Mister, Joe i'm trying to learn
Speaker 2: how to be that example he would be proud of
Speaker 2: me to.
Speaker 5: Be, WELL i THINK i can say that he would,
Speaker 5: be And i'm sure he. Is and you are a
Speaker 5: great example of everything that's good and right about this.
Speaker 5: Cause and people like you are the strongest forces we
Speaker 5: have because the stories are just so incredible and so,
Speaker 5: powerful and SO i appreciate you being here and sharing.
Speaker 5: THAT i KNEW i was going to learn something. That
Speaker 5: don't forget to give us a fantastic Review wherever you
Speaker 5: get your, podcasts it really. Helps And i'm a proud
Speaker 5: donor to The Innocence, project AND i really hope you'll
Speaker 5: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 5: to prevent future wrongful. Convictions go To innocenceproject dot org
Speaker 5: to learn how to donate and get. Involved i'd like
Speaker 5: to thank our production, Team Connor hall And Kevin. Wortis
Speaker 5: the music in the show is by three TIME oscar
Speaker 5: nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On
Speaker 5: instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook At Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 5: Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of
Speaker 5: lava For good podcasts and association with Signal Company number
Speaker 5: one