WEBVTT - Too Little Too Late | Kitty Genovese 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.680 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:31.680 Aloha everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:32.960 and iHeartRadio. 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.920 We are your hosts. I'm Roscha Piccuerero and I'm Evet 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.800 Genteel and always we are here with our amazing producer, 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:41.800 mister Trevor Young. 0:00:42.200 --> 0:00:43.519 Hey, thanks for having me. 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.440 So today we're talking about a case that involves an 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:53.080 openly gay woman and she was out in the nineteen sixties, 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:57.000 which was not the norm back then. This is pre Stonewall, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:05.640 and she, you know, unfortunately was murdered. And it just 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.360 makes me feel being an out and proud lesbian in 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:12.080 twenty twenty two, how fortunate. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.559 How blessed, how privileged I am. 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:17.679 I mean, this past weekend, I was on top of 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:23.360 the Alaska Airlines Pride float, you know, dancing, and I 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.160 was on television and celebrating being an out and proud lesbian, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.840 and Kitty didn't get to do that, and it just 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.759 it breaks my heart that she didn't live long enough 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.120 even to see stone Wall, and I think it could 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.480 have been prevented. It was just, it was really, it 0:01:41.520 --> 0:01:45.920 was really humbling for me to be celebrating in Honoluluho 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:50.040 VII and knowing there's so many people like Kitty who 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.920 weren't able to right. 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:54.880 So many people who didn't get to live out loud, 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:56.960 you know, in the way that they would have liked. 0:01:57.680 --> 0:01:59.920 And with that being said, Trevor, will you please to 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:01.440 us through titday's case. 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.000 Kitty Genevieves was almost home when she heard a man's 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.280 footsteps behind her. She ran, but the man caught up 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:13.800 to her and stabbed her twice in the back. She screamed, 0:02:13.919 --> 0:02:15.359 oh God, I've been stabbed. 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:20.440 Have mark surrounded near the chalk lined the outline and 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:21.919 the yellow tape around the area. 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:27.560 The idea that New Yorkers watched and did nothing, didn't 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:30.560 lift a finger to help this poor dying girl stuck 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:31.440 in the public mind. 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:34.919 But it was a lot more complicated than that. Kitty 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:37.639 Genovese was a twenty eight year old woman who was 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.400 killed on the streets of Queens, New York in nineteen 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:44.640 sixty four. Late the night of March thirteenth, Kitty was 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.919 walking back to her apartment when a man stabbed her repeatedly. 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:52.000 He initially fled when a witness called out, but returned 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.399 ten minutes later to finish the job. A New York 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.799 Times story made Kitty Jenevez's story infamous with the headline 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:03.720 quote thirty eight who saw murder, didn't call the police 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.919 end quote. This story that neighbors witnessed the murder of 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.760 a young woman but did nothing to help was so 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:14.280 enduring that people began calling callous in action in the 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:18.560 face of a stranger's peril quote Geneve syndrome or the 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.880 bystander effect. But as it turns out, the real story 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:25.240 of the life and death of Kitty Genove's is a 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:30.359 lot more complicated. And so who was Kitty Jeneved's, how 0:03:30.400 --> 0:03:33.320 did her murder actually go down? And what does the 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.800 story tell us about the so called bystander effect. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:43.720 So I'd say probably about a year ago or so, 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:48.480 I was with my dear friend, mister David Hand in 0:03:48.520 --> 0:03:52.720 New York City, and I was talking to him about 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.440 what Yvette and I were doing, and that was before 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:57.200 we knew you were going to be with us, Trevor, 0:03:57.760 --> 0:04:01.080 and I asked if David could help, if he could 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:05.800 tell me any stories in the LGBTQ plus community that 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:10.320 he thought needed to be told, and Kitty Genovas was 0:04:10.760 --> 0:04:13.920 the one he told me I had to look into. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:19.800 And the more that Yvet and I have dove into it, 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:24.200 the more my heart breaks when any life is taken, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.880 you know, But the way that she was treated, and 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.440 even her partner was treated and all the things, it's 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.240 just it's so much, right. 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:38.080 Yeah, and I had not heard about this story until 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:42.760 you know, you mentioned it, and again I took a 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.680 deep dive, and you know, I love my documentaries, so 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.039 I watched The Witness and we'll get into that later on. 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:54.159 But yeah, this is another yet sad story. 0:04:54.680 --> 0:04:57.560 Have you ever heard about Kitty, Trevor, Yeah. 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.080 It's interesting. The way that I learned about Kitty is 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.520 actually the way that I think probably a lot of 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:07.840 people inadvertently learned about Kitty, which was in a psychology 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:12.080 class maybe in high school or college. So anybody who 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.680 takes psych one oh one may actually read about her 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:18.800 murder because of this so called bystander effect. Again, this 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:21.520 is the idea of a group of people doing nothing 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:25.920 to really help a stranger when there's a distressful situation 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.520 because they assume that everybody else is going to help 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:30.880 out right, like, oh, I'm not going to do anything 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.039 because so and so will jump in. But then nobody 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:35.440 jumps in because again they assume somebody else will do it, 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:39.599 and as a result, the situation doesn't get solved. So 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:44.120 this is actually an interesting case for human psychology that 0:05:44.160 --> 0:05:46.800 people have looked at over the years. So I actually 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:50.000 did read about this case in college and when we 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:52.680 started looking into it and researching, and I was like, oh, yeah, 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:57.680 I remember that. So it's an interesting idea. However, there's 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.680 this kind of widespread no as a result of it 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.640 being included in psychology classes that when Kitty was murdered, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.960 she was killed out on the street and nobody did 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.120 anything to help that nobody chimed into stop. And that's 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.440 actually not entirely true, which is something we'll get into. 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:21.159 So let's get down to who Kitty Genovese really was 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.440 and what really happened to her. 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.719 Okay, so Kitty genoves like we said at the top, 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:32.080 of the episode was an out lesbian. And I say 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.680 that with a grain of salt, right, because it's not 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:38.360 like you could be completely out in the nineteen sixties, 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:43.760 I imagine, you know, just because doing so would have absolutely, 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:49.000 you know, jeopardized maybe her job, her living situation. I 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.200 mean you could be fired. I mean, you could be 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.400 fired for being gay not that long ago. I mean, 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:58.120 let's be real, so you know, most likely you were 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:01.440 going to be ostracized just for being yourself. It was 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:04.000 a very very different time back then, right. 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.320 It's very true. You know, there are those people who 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.280 were living out loud, but you still were hiding it 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:11.080 most of the time. 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:14.800 Right, you talk about your roommate quote unquote or sign 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.480 of the times, I guess, yeah. 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.800 And just a quick disclaimer before we get any further 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.000 into the episode. You know, we have been mentioning the 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:27.920 fact that Kitty was a gay woman, closeted or otherwise. However, 0:07:28.000 --> 0:07:32.320 there's no necessarily clear connection between her murder and her 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.520 sexual orientation, So I just want to be careful that 0:07:35.520 --> 0:07:37.960 we're not drying a line between the fact that she 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.080 was murdered because she is gay. I think that happens 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:46.160 to be more a matter of circumstance that has, you know, 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.040 maybe no connection, right. Yeah, So just just kind of 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.440 pointing out who she was as a person is the 0:07:51.520 --> 0:07:56.480 value in talking about her being gay. Right, So let's 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.960 talk a little bit more about Kitty. She was born 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.840 in Brooklyn, New York, the eldest of five kids in 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:06.080 a Catholic family in the Park Slope neighborhood. She attended 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:08.480 an all girls school, where she was described as quote 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.640 mature with a good disposition, whatever that means. And in 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.560 nineteen fifty four, her mother moved the family to Connecticut, 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:20.559 everyone except for Kitty, actually, and the reason that Kitty 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.200 did not move is because she had actually witnessed a 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:26.440 murder in the streets of New York and was incredibly 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:28.160 concerned for her family safety. 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.760 I mean, that's such an irony, right, It's just so crazy, 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.520 because you know, her mother moved because of what she saw. 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:40.080 And now the story that we're about to tell, and 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:41.840 as we know, Kitty stayed behind. 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.360 Yeah, right, Like the idea there was to make the 0:08:44.400 --> 0:08:46.719 family more safe, but she ended up staying behind in 0:08:46.760 --> 0:08:48.680 a situation that was less safe. 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:48.960 Yeah. 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:51.920 Well, and the other thing is too, she was nineteen 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.520 at the time that her family moved back to Connecticut. 0:08:54.600 --> 0:08:57.120 So she didn't really want to leave. I wouldn't want 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.920 to leave either. It's you know, New York was her home. 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:02.240 She didn't want to go anywhere. 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:03.120 She's an adult. 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:06.880 Yeah, you're nineteen, right, You have so many friends, you 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.440 have so many relationships that you've established. It's hard to 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:12.320 just pack up and leave. 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:17.079 Yeah. So Kitty's living in Queens, New York. She's working 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.640 double shifts at a bar called EV's Eleventh Hour. She's 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:23.400 actually managing it at the point of her murder, no 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.600 longer just a bartender, and she's saving up money because 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:29.320 she wants to eventually open up her own Italian restaurant. 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:33.240 Reportedly, So, I mean, as you can tell, like, she's 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.400 a go getter. And she's also living with a girlfriend 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:40.760 at this point. Yes, I say had a girlfriend, but 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.800 you know that was a risk at the time. But obviously, 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.600 you know, people just assumed that they were roommates, right. 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.520 Right, quote unquote roommates. Yeah, yeah, that was the thing 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:56.800 you said back then. Yeah, but her roommate aka girlfriend, 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.680 her name was Mary Ann Zelonko, and the two of 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.680 them shared an apartment in the neighborhood of Q Gardens 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:09.120 in Queens, New York. And again it's the early nineteen sixties, 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.320 so they do end up renting the apartment under the 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:16.120 guise of being just platonic roommates. 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.400 Yeah, so I wanted to read something really quick from 0:10:20.559 --> 0:10:24.160 apiece the Chicago Tribune did in twenty seventeen where they 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:27.640 interviewed Marianne Zelanko, and I think it gives us a 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:30.920 small interesting peak into the kind of relationship they had. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:35.520 Quote now looking back at two young lovers through senior 0:10:35.559 --> 0:10:40.600 citizen eyes, Zelanko measures her adoration for Genevese in numerous ways. 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.040 Love was their regular Monday night sojourns to Greets, a 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.319 club where they would drink beer and listen to folk music. 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.920 It was Wednesday evening meals at Hofbrow, the German restaurant 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.400 down the block. It was the late night chats and 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.200 the intimate kisses and the idea that here is a 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:57.560 person you can spend your life with. End quote. 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:02.120 It makes my gayheart so happy, like yeah, you know, 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.400 just like all the way in twenty seventeen, you know, 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.120 after she was murdered in the nineteen sixties, like there's 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.280 still you know that love there it's just it's beautiful. 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:15.960 Just to hear little simple moments like that is just 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.360 really really sweet. And I love that Kitty had that 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:21.400 with mary Anne. 0:11:22.040 --> 0:11:24.679 Right, it was a genuine love story. 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:29.520 Yeah, So moving on with the story here. On March 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:34.600 thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, Kitty is bartending and her 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.320 shift ends. She got into her red Fiat to drive 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.200 home to the apartment where her girlfriend was sleeping. And 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.560 that is the last time that anyone ever saw Kitty 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:47.720 Genoves alive. And we'll discuss what happened right after we 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:49.000 take a quick ad break. 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.720 At around two thirty am on March thirteenth of nineteen 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.000 sixty four, Kitty Genoves her bartending shift and headed home 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.120 to the apartment that she shared with her girlfriend, Mary Anne. 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:08.439 At a stoplight on Hoover Avenue, she was spotted by 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.520 a man named Winston Moseley. He was sitting in his 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:18.120 parked Chevy corvat. Moseley then began following Kitty home. So 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:21.120 Kitty parked her car in the Kew Gardens Long Island 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.959 Railroad station parking lot. And this wasn't very far from 0:12:24.960 --> 0:12:26.440 her apartment, right, Trevor. 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.199 Yeah, it's super close. So only about one hundred feet 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:32.400 from the entrance to her apartment building and just next 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:35.080 door to another building across the street that will come 0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:37.680 into play here in a minute. So you can actually 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.760 find good maps of all this online. People have mapped 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:42.960 it out so you can get a better understanding of 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.680 how this went down. But really this was her block, right, 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:48.000 she parks here all the time. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:48.680 Yeah. 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.080 In fact, I was texting with my friend David, who 0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.480 is the one that told us about this case, this morning, 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:58.160 and he sent me a picture of the map where 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.480 Kitty lived and where she was killed and where he 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.760 currently lives, and it's literally a block apart, like he 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.000 drew it for me, and I'm like, oh my god, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.199 I'm you know, her history is still very rich there, 0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:13.120 so needless to say with all of that, you know, 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:14.600 she didn't have very far to go, Like she was 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:16.679 literally one hundred feet to safety. 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:17.640 She was on her block. 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.360 She was on her block, She was at home. But 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:25.280 when she got out of her car, she presumably noticed 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.560 Moseley for the first time, so he had gotten out 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.760 of his car at this point and was following her 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.960 close behind, carrying a hunting knife. 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:38.880 I can't even imagine that like the fear that she had, 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:42.360 or that anybody would have. That's anybody's worst nightmare, that 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.400 somebody is following you and they have a knife coming 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.119 after you. That's terrifying. 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.480 Yeah, so terrifying. And so she immediately starts running, but 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.959 Moseley quickly catches up, and it's at this time that 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.160 he stabs her twice in the back. She of course 0:13:59.200 --> 0:14:03.760 screams and reports very on what she said exactly, but 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:08.280 it's often been reported she was streaming something like quote, 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.120 oh my god, he stabbed me. Help me end quote. 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:15.679 So she was heard by bystanders. 0:14:16.200 --> 0:14:18.880 Yeah, and that's where a lot of I think misconceptions 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.600 come from in this case. So the first person we 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.520 know about who actually heard her was a neighbor named 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.600 Robert Moser. So Mosher apparently sense that something was going on, 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:31.920 some sort of kerfuffle or fight outside. He looked out 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:34.600 of his window from the seventh floor, but according to him, 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:36.520 he couldn't see anything that was happening. It was a 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:40.880 very dark night by all reports, and he did, according 0:14:40.880 --> 0:14:43.640 to him, yell out of his window the words quote, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.480 leave that girl alone. So I guess he could deduce 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:49.200 that there was a girl involved. In some sort of 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:53.080 attack outside, and I guess maybe yelling was going to 0:14:53.120 --> 0:14:54.280 scare this gentleman. 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.800 Away, right right, That is exactly what happened. But there 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.480 were also other neighbors that heard this same commotion as well. 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:05.760 But you know, again, they're right next to a bar 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:08.720 and they're used to, you know, when the bar shuts 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:11.080 down that kind of people are drunk and there's some 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.120 kind of commotion going on. Some of these people just 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:15.000 assumed it was that. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:20.280 Yeah, And later when Sint Moseley testified that Robert Moser's 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:24.600 yelling actually did scare him away, at least temporarily, Moseley 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:28.360 ran back to his car and drove off. So, of course, 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.920 Kitty was seriously injured by her two stab wounds, and 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.840 she was able to crawl towards the back of the 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.600 apartment building. And you know this this is significant because 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:43.440 it was a place where you know, she couldn't be 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.440 seen by any witnesses. So where she crawled the back 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:48.680 of the building, yeah, yeah, nobody could see her. 0:15:48.960 --> 0:15:50.640 It was essentially an alleyway. 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:52.240 Right right. They call it like a what is it 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:55.760 called like a vestibule or something, Yeah, like a back alley. 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:58.000 But you know, The thing about it is like when 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.320 we were just talking earlier, and that scream when she 0:16:01.480 --> 0:16:07.800 got stabbed, like that is a blood curdling, curdling scream, 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:11.800 you know. So for you know, the neighbors that said 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:15.360 it was, you know, just some type of commotion. I 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:16.920 think that scream. 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.360 Alone should have set off all the bells and whistles. 0:16:20.000 --> 0:16:23.400 Should have like made everybody rush, you know, and called 0:16:23.400 --> 0:16:23.920 the police. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.560 So Mosley ends up coming back, and by this time 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:30.600 she's gotten into an entrance around the back of the building, 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.200 but of course she's severely injured from the stab wounds, 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:36.800 and she did get to a door, but it was locked, 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.600 so she could not get inside to safety. And it 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:45.800 was at this point that Mosley stabbed her several more times. 0:16:46.560 --> 0:16:49.920 He raped her, and then he took all of the 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:51.440 money in her wallet. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.360 What's a I guess peculiar to me about this is 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.560 that he seemed to be on the prowl for Kitty 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.840 in particular. I don't know if that's true, but the 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.600 way that the story has been told is that he 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.240 was sitting in his car and then the second that 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:09.760 she got out and started walking to her apartment, you know, 0:17:09.840 --> 0:17:13.119 just a block away he got out and started you know, 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:16.080 following her and tracking her down. So I'm curious if 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.600 he knew kitty. Yeah, what was his intended goal? Initially 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:22.639 it was this something like a robbery got wrong. Was 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:25.239 he looking for any woman that night? Yeah, it's all 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:26.240 very mysterious to me. 0:17:26.560 --> 0:17:29.159 It's so true, Trevor. I put my hat on, you know, 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.080 like my crime hat on, trying to figure that out 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:35.440 as well, because you think about when the first act 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:38.560 happened and the guy yelled at him, right, you would 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.760 think that if it was just some random person like 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.160 they would just they would run off and they wouldn't 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.080 come back, but to wait ten more minutes and then 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:52.919 come back right and viciously do this to her. Like again, 0:17:53.000 --> 0:17:55.760 those questions go through your head. Did he know her? 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:56.280 Like? 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:58.800 Was it a hit or something? You know, like your 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:02.520 mind just starts to wonder of what was the motive 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:03.240 behind it? 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:06.720 Are Yeah, Yeah, the coming back to finish the job 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:10.760 angle is very unusual. It's not often that you hear 0:18:10.920 --> 0:18:14.919 see people do that, right, So he was dedicated enough 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.000 that you know, he was willing to risk being you know, 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.760 attacked or intervened or having the cops called on him 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.160 to come finish this job. Yeah, so you know, after 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:31.280 he does this, he leaves, and this is the point 0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.800 at which her neighbors finally come to her. Aid. So, 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.680 there was a woman named Sophie Ferrar who lived across 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.680 the hall from Kitty and Mary Anne, and apparently at 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.280 three am she got a frantic phone call from a 0:18:44.320 --> 0:18:47.040 neighbor in another building who knew that Kitty was in 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:49.080 some kind of distress. I don't know how they knew this, 0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:54.560 but they did so. Anyways, Sophie Farrar leaps up, races downstairs, 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.040 and she goes through this alleyway to reach the back entrance, 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.680 just as mosely as lee the scene. 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:04.440 This is definitely a different story than the popular myth 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:09.080 right that no one helped Kitty. That this article right 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.120 that came out right this moment right here completely changes 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:18.760 everything because she wasn't alone and someone did come to 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:19.240 help her. 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:22.040 Yeah, I guess the sad reality is that it wasn't 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.920 soon enough, right, that somebody probably should have come and 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.159 helped sooner, as you guys were saying, as that first 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.959 blood curdling scream came out, that should have been you know, 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:36.440 right when somebody jumped on this had somebody gotten there 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.040 sooner before you know, Mosley made the decision that it 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.199 was safe enough to come back ten minutes later and 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.320 finish the job. Yeah, you know, maybe this wouldn't have happened. 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.800 Maybe after those first two stab wounds, she would have 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:51.919 been fine after some initial medical attention, right. So yeah, 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.320 that's I think probably the real tragedy here. But according 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:58.880 to Fararar here, they were awoken earlier by kitty screams. 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.840 But according to them, it was three in the morning. 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:06.280 Many had been asleep, of course, and they were super disoriented. 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.119 It was very dark, like I said earlier, so the 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.560 Ferrara said they looked out the window, but they didn't 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.040 see anything, so they went back to sleep, and it 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.080 wasn't until they got this phone call from a neighbor 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.240 a few minutes later that they finally decided to take action. 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.040 So I think you can't look at this case in 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:26.359 a vacuum and just say that people knew this was 0:20:26.400 --> 0:20:28.520 happening and didn't do anything. You have to take into 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.879 account the fact that it was three in the morning 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.800 and most people were sleeping through this, the fact that 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.320 it was like a bar area in New York City 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.199 in the nineteen sixties. I'm sure you heard stuff like 0:20:40.200 --> 0:20:43.080 this often. There are other factors to consider as to 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:45.399 why people didn't respond to this. You know, I'm not 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:47.679 saying it's okay, and I do say, of course, that 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.679 had people actually responded sooner, again, this might not have happened. 0:20:51.720 --> 0:20:54.399 But you know, the reality is that who knows, we 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:56.159 might have done the same thing if this was happening 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:58.120 at three am outside our house, right. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.280 Yeah, no, it is definitely something to consider. So Sophie 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.879 Ferrar ended up getting to the scene having run through 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:09.160 those back alleyways, but was This is the part that's 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:12.119 super super sad to me. She was further delayed in 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:18.200 actually getting to Kitty because Kitty's body was blocking the door. 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.080 She was slumped up against the door on the inside, 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.600 so she couldn't open it because her body was lying there. 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:26.240 You know. 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:31.080 When she finally got the door open, she saw Kitty, 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.920 you know, sitting there and in all of the blood, 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.840 and she immediately yelled, you know, for another neighbor to 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.800 call the police. And that's when she just cradled her 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:45.720 and she, I mean as best as she could. She 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:50.520 tried to comfort her, you know, in the last minutes 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:51.840 of her life. 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:53.639 Yeah, it's so sad. 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.520 You know, an ambulance ended up arriving, but you know, 0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.840 she ended up dying on the way to the hospital, 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.560 you know. And that's where the story of Kitty Genove's 0:22:05.880 --> 0:22:12.800 life ends, and sadly, that's when the myth is born, right. 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.480 Yeah, So there's some aftermath here to talk about, and 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.640 we will do that after we take another quick break. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.159 Around four a m. The morning of March sixteenth, nineteen 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.919 sixty four, mary Anne Zelonko is awoken from her sleep 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:33.159