1 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 6 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 7 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 2: Aloha everyone, Welcome back to Facing Evil from Tenderfoot TV 8 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: and iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 3: We are your hosts. I'm Roscha Piccuerero and I'm Evet 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 3: Genteel and always we are here with our amazing producer, 11 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 3: mister Trevor Young. 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: Hey, thanks for having me. 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 2: So today we're talking about a case that involves an 14 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: openly gay woman and she was out in the nineteen sixties, 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: which was not the norm back then. This is pre Stonewall, 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: and she, you know, unfortunately was murdered. And it just 17 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: makes me feel being an out and proud lesbian in 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two, how fortunate. 19 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 4: How blessed, how privileged I am. 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 2: I mean, this past weekend, I was on top of 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 2: the Alaska Airlines Pride float, you know, dancing, and I 22 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 2: was on television and celebrating being an out and proud lesbian, 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 2: and Kitty didn't get to do that, and it just 24 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:35,759 Speaker 2: it breaks my heart that she didn't live long enough 25 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 2: even to see stone Wall, and I think it could 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: have been prevented. It was just, it was really, it 27 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 2: was really humbling for me to be celebrating in Honoluluho 28 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: VII and knowing there's so many people like Kitty who 29 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: weren't able to right. 30 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 3: So many people who didn't get to live out loud, 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 3: you know, in the way that they would have liked. 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 3: And with that being said, Trevor, will you please to 33 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 3: us through titday's case. 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 5: Kitty Genevieves was almost home when she heard a man's 35 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 5: footsteps behind her. She ran, but the man caught up 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,800 Speaker 5: to her and stabbed her twice in the back. She screamed, 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 5: oh God, I've been stabbed. 38 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 3: Have mark surrounded near the chalk lined the outline and 39 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 3: the yellow tape around the area. 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 5: The idea that New Yorkers watched and did nothing, didn't 41 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 5: lift a finger to help this poor dying girl stuck 42 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 5: in the public mind. 43 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: But it was a lot more complicated than that. Kitty 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: Genovese was a twenty eight year old woman who was 45 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: killed on the streets of Queens, New York in nineteen 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: sixty four. Late the night of March thirteenth, Kitty was 47 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: walking back to her apartment when a man stabbed her repeatedly. 48 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: He initially fled when a witness called out, but returned 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,399 Speaker 1: ten minutes later to finish the job. A New York 50 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 1: Times story made Kitty Jenevez's story infamous with the headline 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: quote thirty eight who saw murder, didn't call the police 52 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: end quote. This story that neighbors witnessed the murder of 53 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: a young woman but did nothing to help was so 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: enduring that people began calling callous in action in the 55 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: face of a stranger's peril quote Geneve syndrome or the 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: bystander effect. But as it turns out, the real story 57 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: of the life and death of Kitty Genove's is a 58 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:30,359 Speaker 1: lot more complicated. And so who was Kitty Jeneved's, how 59 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: did her murder actually go down? And what does the 60 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: story tell us about the so called bystander effect. 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: So I'd say probably about a year ago or so, 62 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: I was with my dear friend, mister David Hand in 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 2: New York City, and I was talking to him about 64 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 2: what Yvette and I were doing, and that was before 65 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 2: we knew you were going to be with us, Trevor, 66 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 2: and I asked if David could help, if he could 67 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: tell me any stories in the LGBTQ plus community that 68 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: he thought needed to be told, and Kitty Genovas was 69 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: the one he told me I had to look into. 70 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: And the more that Yvet and I have dove into it, 71 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: the more my heart breaks when any life is taken, 72 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 2: you know, But the way that she was treated, and 73 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: even her partner was treated and all the things, it's 74 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 2: just it's so much, right. 75 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I had not heard about this story until 76 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 3: you know, you mentioned it, and again I took a 77 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: deep dive, and you know, I love my documentaries, so 78 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,039 Speaker 3: I watched The Witness and we'll get into that later on. 79 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,159 Speaker 3: But yeah, this is another yet sad story. 80 00:04:54,680 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 2: Have you ever heard about Kitty, Trevor, Yeah. 81 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: It's interesting. The way that I learned about Kitty is 82 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: actually the way that I think probably a lot of 83 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: people inadvertently learned about Kitty, which was in a psychology 84 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:12,080 Speaker 1: class maybe in high school or college. So anybody who 85 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: takes psych one oh one may actually read about her 86 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: murder because of this so called bystander effect. Again, this 87 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: is the idea of a group of people doing nothing 88 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: to really help a stranger when there's a distressful situation 89 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: because they assume that everybody else is going to help 90 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: out right, like, oh, I'm not going to do anything 91 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: because so and so will jump in. But then nobody 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: jumps in because again they assume somebody else will do it, 93 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: and as a result, the situation doesn't get solved. So 94 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 1: this is actually an interesting case for human psychology that 95 00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: people have looked at over the years. So I actually 96 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: did read about this case in college and when we 97 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: started looking into it and researching, and I was like, oh, yeah, 98 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: I remember that. So it's an interesting idea. However, there's 99 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: this kind of widespread no as a result of it 100 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,640 Speaker 1: being included in psychology classes that when Kitty was murdered, 101 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: she was killed out on the street and nobody did 102 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: anything to help that nobody chimed into stop. And that's 103 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: actually not entirely true, which is something we'll get into. 104 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,159 Speaker 3: So let's get down to who Kitty Genovese really was 105 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 3: and what really happened to her. 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: Okay, so Kitty genoves like we said at the top, 107 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: of the episode was an out lesbian. And I say 108 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 2: that with a grain of salt, right, because it's not 109 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 2: like you could be completely out in the nineteen sixties, 110 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: I imagine, you know, just because doing so would have absolutely, 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 2: you know, jeopardized maybe her job, her living situation. I 112 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 2: mean you could be fired. I mean, you could be 113 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 2: fired for being gay not that long ago. I mean, 114 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 2: let's be real, so you know, most likely you were 115 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 2: going to be ostracized just for being yourself. It was 116 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: a very very different time back then, right. 117 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: It's very true. You know, there are those people who 118 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 3: were living out loud, but you still were hiding it 119 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 3: most of the time. 120 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: Right, you talk about your roommate quote unquote or sign 121 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: of the times, I guess, yeah. 122 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: And just a quick disclaimer before we get any further 123 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: into the episode. You know, we have been mentioning the 124 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: fact that Kitty was a gay woman, closeted or otherwise. However, 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: there's no necessarily clear connection between her murder and her 126 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: sexual orientation, So I just want to be careful that 127 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: we're not drying a line between the fact that she 128 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: was murdered because she is gay. I think that happens 129 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 1: to be more a matter of circumstance that has, you know, 130 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: maybe no connection, right. Yeah, So just just kind of 131 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 1: pointing out who she was as a person is the 132 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: value in talking about her being gay. Right, So let's 133 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more about Kitty. She was born 134 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, New York, the eldest of five kids in 135 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: a Catholic family in the Park Slope neighborhood. She attended 136 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: an all girls school, where she was described as quote 137 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: mature with a good disposition, whatever that means. And in 138 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, her mother moved the family to Connecticut, 139 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,559 Speaker 1: everyone except for Kitty, actually, and the reason that Kitty 140 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: did not move is because she had actually witnessed a 141 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: murder in the streets of New York and was incredibly 142 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: concerned for her family safety. 143 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 3: I mean, that's such an irony, right, It's just so crazy, 144 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 3: because you know, her mother moved because of what she saw. 145 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 3: And now the story that we're about to tell, and 146 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: as we know, Kitty stayed behind. 147 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Like the idea there was to make the 148 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: family more safe, but she ended up staying behind in 149 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:48,680 Speaker 1: a situation that was less safe. 150 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 151 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing is too, she was nineteen 152 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 2: at the time that her family moved back to Connecticut. 153 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 2: So she didn't really want to leave. I wouldn't want 154 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 2: to leave either. It's you know, New York was her home. 155 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 2: She didn't want to go anywhere. 156 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: She's an adult. 157 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, you're nineteen, right, You have so many friends, you 158 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 3: have so many relationships that you've established. It's hard to 159 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 3: just pack up and leave. 160 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. So Kitty's living in Queens, New York. She's working 161 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: double shifts at a bar called EV's Eleventh Hour. She's 162 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: actually managing it at the point of her murder, no 163 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: longer just a bartender, and she's saving up money because 164 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: she wants to eventually open up her own Italian restaurant. 165 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 3: Reportedly, So, I mean, as you can tell, like, she's 166 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: a go getter. And she's also living with a girlfriend 167 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: at this point. Yes, I say had a girlfriend, but 168 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 3: you know that was a risk at the time. But obviously, 169 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:48,600 Speaker 3: you know, people just assumed that they were roommates, right. 170 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: Right, quote unquote roommates. Yeah, yeah, that was the thing 171 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 2: you said back then. Yeah, but her roommate aka girlfriend, 172 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 2: her name was Mary Ann Zelonko, and the two of 173 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: them shared an apartment in the neighborhood of Q Gardens 174 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 2: in Queens, New York. And again it's the early nineteen sixties, 175 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: so they do end up renting the apartment under the 176 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 2: guise of being just platonic roommates. 177 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I wanted to read something really quick from 178 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: apiece the Chicago Tribune did in twenty seventeen where they 179 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: interviewed Marianne Zelanko, and I think it gives us a 180 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: small interesting peak into the kind of relationship they had. 181 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: Quote now looking back at two young lovers through senior 182 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: citizen eyes, Zelanko measures her adoration for Genevese in numerous ways. 183 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 1: Love was their regular Monday night sojourns to Greets, a 184 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 1: club where they would drink beer and listen to folk music. 185 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: It was Wednesday evening meals at Hofbrow, the German restaurant 186 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: down the block. It was the late night chats and 187 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: the intimate kisses and the idea that here is a 188 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 1: person you can spend your life with. End quote. 189 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: It makes my gayheart so happy, like yeah, you know, 190 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: just like all the way in twenty seventeen, you know, 191 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 2: after she was murdered in the nineteen sixties, like there's 192 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 2: still you know that love there it's just it's beautiful. 193 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 2: Just to hear little simple moments like that is just 194 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 2: really really sweet. And I love that Kitty had that 195 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 2: with mary Anne. 196 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 3: Right, it was a genuine love story. 197 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, So moving on with the story here. On March 198 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: thirteenth of nineteen sixty four, Kitty is bartending and her 199 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: shift ends. She got into her red Fiat to drive 200 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: home to the apartment where her girlfriend was sleeping. And 201 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: that is the last time that anyone ever saw Kitty 202 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: Genoves alive. And we'll discuss what happened right after we 203 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: take a quick ad break. 204 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: At around two thirty am on March thirteenth of nineteen 205 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 2: sixty four, Kitty Genoves her bartending shift and headed home 206 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 2: to the apartment that she shared with her girlfriend, Mary Anne. 207 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: At a stoplight on Hoover Avenue, she was spotted by 208 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 2: a man named Winston Moseley. He was sitting in his 209 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: parked Chevy corvat. Moseley then began following Kitty home. So 210 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 2: Kitty parked her car in the Kew Gardens Long Island 211 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: Railroad station parking lot. And this wasn't very far from 212 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: her apartment, right, Trevor. 213 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's super close. So only about one hundred feet 214 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 1: from the entrance to her apartment building and just next 215 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: door to another building across the street that will come 216 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: into play here in a minute. So you can actually 217 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: find good maps of all this online. People have mapped 218 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: it out so you can get a better understanding of 219 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: how this went down. But really this was her block, right, 220 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: she parks here all the time. 221 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 4: Yeah. 222 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: In fact, I was texting with my friend David, who 223 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 2: is the one that told us about this case, this morning, 224 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,160 Speaker 2: and he sent me a picture of the map where 225 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 2: Kitty lived and where she was killed and where he 226 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 2: currently lives, and it's literally a block apart, like he 227 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: drew it for me, and I'm like, oh my god, 228 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 2: I'm you know, her history is still very rich there, 229 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 2: so needless to say with all of that, you know, 230 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 2: she didn't have very far to go, Like she was 231 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:16,679 Speaker 2: literally one hundred feet to safety. 232 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 3: She was on her block. 233 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: She was on her block, She was at home. But 234 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 2: when she got out of her car, she presumably noticed 235 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,560 Speaker 2: Moseley for the first time, so he had gotten out 236 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: of his car at this point and was following her 237 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: close behind, carrying a hunting knife. 238 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 3: I can't even imagine that like the fear that she had, 239 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 3: or that anybody would have. That's anybody's worst nightmare, that 240 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: somebody is following you and they have a knife coming 241 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:47,119 Speaker 3: after you. That's terrifying. 242 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, so terrifying. And so she immediately starts running, but 243 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 2: Moseley quickly catches up, and it's at this time that 244 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: he stabs her twice in the back. She of course 245 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 2: screams and reports very on what she said exactly, but 246 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 2: it's often been reported she was streaming something like quote, 247 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: oh my god, he stabbed me. Help me end quote. 248 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 2: So she was heard by bystanders. 249 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's where a lot of I think misconceptions 250 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: come from in this case. So the first person we 251 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: know about who actually heard her was a neighbor named 252 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: Robert Moser. So Mosher apparently sense that something was going on, 253 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: some sort of kerfuffle or fight outside. He looked out 254 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: of his window from the seventh floor, but according to him, 255 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: he couldn't see anything that was happening. It was a 256 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: very dark night by all reports, and he did, according 257 00:14:40,880 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: to him, yell out of his window the words quote, 258 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: leave that girl alone. So I guess he could deduce 259 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: that there was a girl involved. In some sort of 260 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: attack outside, and I guess maybe yelling was going to 261 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: scare this gentleman. 262 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: Away, right right, That is exactly what happened. But there 263 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: were also other neighbors that heard this same commotion as well. 264 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: But you know, again, they're right next to a bar 265 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 3: and they're used to, you know, when the bar shuts 266 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 3: down that kind of people are drunk and there's some 267 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 3: kind of commotion going on. Some of these people just 268 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,000 Speaker 3: assumed it was that. 269 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, And later when Sint Moseley testified that Robert Moser's 270 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 2: yelling actually did scare him away, at least temporarily, Moseley 271 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: ran back to his car and drove off. So, of course, 272 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 2: Kitty was seriously injured by her two stab wounds, and 273 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 2: she was able to crawl towards the back of the 274 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 2: apartment building. And you know this this is significant because 275 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 2: it was a place where you know, she couldn't be 276 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: seen by any witnesses. So where she crawled the back 277 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 2: of the building, yeah, yeah, nobody could see her. 278 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: It was essentially an alleyway. 279 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 3: Right right. They call it like a what is it 280 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 3: called like a vestibule or something, Yeah, like a back alley. 281 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 3: But you know, The thing about it is like when 282 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 3: we were just talking earlier, and that scream when she 283 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: got stabbed, like that is a blood curdling, curdling scream, 284 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 3: you know. So for you know, the neighbors that said 285 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 3: it was, you know, just some type of commotion. I 286 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 3: think that scream. 287 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 4: Alone should have set off all the bells and whistles. 288 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 3: Should have like made everybody rush, you know, and called 289 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 3: the police. 290 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: So Mosley ends up coming back, and by this time 291 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 2: she's gotten into an entrance around the back of the building, 292 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: but of course she's severely injured from the stab wounds, 293 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: and she did get to a door, but it was locked, 294 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 2: so she could not get inside to safety. And it 295 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 2: was at this point that Mosley stabbed her several more times. 296 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 2: He raped her, and then he took all of the 297 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 2: money in her wallet. 298 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: What's a I guess peculiar to me about this is 299 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: that he seemed to be on the prowl for Kitty 300 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: in particular. I don't know if that's true, but the 301 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: way that the story has been told is that he 302 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 1: was sitting in his car and then the second that 303 00:17:07,320 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: she got out and started walking to her apartment, you know, 304 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 1: just a block away he got out and started you know, 305 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: following her and tracking her down. So I'm curious if 306 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: he knew kitty. Yeah, what was his intended goal? Initially 307 00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: it was this something like a robbery got wrong. Was 308 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 1: he looking for any woman that night? Yeah, it's all 309 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: very mysterious to me. 310 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 3: It's so true, Trevor. I put my hat on, you know, 311 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: like my crime hat on, trying to figure that out 312 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:35,440 Speaker 3: as well, because you think about when the first act 313 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 3: happened and the guy yelled at him, right, you would 314 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 3: think that if it was just some random person like 315 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 3: they would just they would run off and they wouldn't 316 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 3: come back, but to wait ten more minutes and then 317 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 3: come back right and viciously do this to her. Like again, 318 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: those questions go through your head. Did he know her? 319 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: Like? 320 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 3: Was it a hit or something? You know, like your 321 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 3: mind just starts to wonder of what was the motive 322 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 3: behind it? 323 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: Are Yeah, Yeah, the coming back to finish the job 324 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: angle is very unusual. It's not often that you hear 325 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,919 Speaker 1: see people do that, right, So he was dedicated enough 326 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: that you know, he was willing to risk being you know, 327 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 1: attacked or intervened or having the cops called on him 328 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,160 Speaker 1: to come finish this job. Yeah, so you know, after 329 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: he does this, he leaves, and this is the point 330 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: at which her neighbors finally come to her. Aid. So, 331 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:38,680 Speaker 1: there was a woman named Sophie Ferrar who lived across 332 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: the hall from Kitty and Mary Anne, and apparently at 333 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: three am she got a frantic phone call from a 334 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: neighbor in another building who knew that Kitty was in 335 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: some kind of distress. I don't know how they knew this, 336 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: but they did so. Anyways, Sophie Farrar leaps up, races downstairs, 337 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 1: and she goes through this alleyway to reach the back entrance, 338 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: just as mosely as lee the scene. 339 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:04,440 Speaker 3: This is definitely a different story than the popular myth 340 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 3: right that no one helped Kitty. That this article right 341 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,120 Speaker 3: that came out right this moment right here completely changes 342 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: everything because she wasn't alone and someone did come to 343 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: help her. 344 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess the sad reality is that it wasn't 345 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: soon enough, right, that somebody probably should have come and 346 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: helped sooner, as you guys were saying, as that first 347 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,959 Speaker 1: blood curdling scream came out, that should have been you know, 348 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: right when somebody jumped on this had somebody gotten there 349 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: sooner before you know, Mosley made the decision that it 350 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: was safe enough to come back ten minutes later and 351 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: finish the job. Yeah, you know, maybe this wouldn't have happened. 352 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: Maybe after those first two stab wounds, she would have 353 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 1: been fine after some initial medical attention, right. So yeah, 354 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: that's I think probably the real tragedy here. But according 355 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 1: to Fararar here, they were awoken earlier by kitty screams. 356 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: But according to them, it was three in the morning. 357 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: Many had been asleep, of course, and they were super disoriented. 358 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: It was very dark, like I said earlier, so the 359 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: Ferrara said they looked out the window, but they didn't 360 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: see anything, so they went back to sleep, and it 361 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: wasn't until they got this phone call from a neighbor 362 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: a few minutes later that they finally decided to take action. 363 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: So I think you can't look at this case in 364 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: a vacuum and just say that people knew this was 365 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: happening and didn't do anything. You have to take into 366 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: account the fact that it was three in the morning 367 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: and most people were sleeping through this, the fact that 368 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: it was like a bar area in New York City 369 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,199 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. I'm sure you heard stuff like 370 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: this often. There are other factors to consider as to 371 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 1: why people didn't respond to this. You know, I'm not 372 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,679 Speaker 1: saying it's okay, and I do say, of course, that 373 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: had people actually responded sooner, again, this might not have happened. 374 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:54,399 Speaker 1: But you know, the reality is that who knows, we 375 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 1: might have done the same thing if this was happening 376 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: at three am outside our house, right. 377 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it is definitely something to consider. So Sophie 378 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 2: Ferrar ended up getting to the scene having run through 379 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: those back alleyways, but was This is the part that's 380 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 2: super super sad to me. She was further delayed in 381 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: actually getting to Kitty because Kitty's body was blocking the door. 382 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: She was slumped up against the door on the inside, 383 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: so she couldn't open it because her body was lying there. 384 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: You know. 385 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 3: When she finally got the door open, she saw Kitty, 386 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 3: you know, sitting there and in all of the blood, 387 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: and she immediately yelled, you know, for another neighbor to 388 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 3: call the police. And that's when she just cradled her 389 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 3: and she, I mean as best as she could. She 390 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:50,520 Speaker 3: tried to comfort her, you know, in the last minutes 391 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 3: of her life. 392 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so sad. 393 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 2: You know, an ambulance ended up arriving, but you know, 394 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: she ended up dying on the way to the hospital, 395 00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: you know. And that's where the story of Kitty Genove's 396 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: life ends, and sadly, that's when the myth is born, right. 397 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's some aftermath here to talk about, and 398 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: we will do that after we take another quick break. 399 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 3: Around four a m. The morning of March sixteenth, nineteen 400 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,919 Speaker 3: sixty four, mary Anne Zelonko is awoken from her sleep 401 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,159 Speaker 3: by two police officers knocking on her door. She you know, 402 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 3: actually had heard none of the commotion outside the apartment building, 403 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 3: but years later she told reporters she was in complete 404 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 3: and utter shock when that not came and she had 405 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 3: to go and identify her girlfriend's body. 406 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: So this part of the story is what breaks my 407 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 2: heart even more, right, And mary Anne was offered little 408 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 2: to no comfort by the officers and they ended up 409 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: taking her to the police station and Marianne was questioned 410 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 2: for six hours. According to one report quote, she was 411 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 2: grilled by at least three different detectives during that time, 412 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: and the questioning took an inappropriate turn, focusing on their 413 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: sex life. 414 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I wish this was more surprising, but 415 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 1: I think this kind of approach to a case like 416 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: this was probably pretty common at the time unfortunately. And 417 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 1: I know the questioning of the neighbors and the days 418 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: that followed also were centered on the fact that this 419 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: was a lesbian couple and that that was somehow relevant 420 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: to the fact that she was murdered, which I think, again, 421 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: as we said at the beginning of the episode, has 422 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: no relevance. Yeah, so it's the nineteen sixties, that right, 423 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: So it's probably the first thing they're thinking about, yep, Like. 424 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: Are they questioning her because they think she had something 425 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 2: to do with it, or that Kitty was murdered for 426 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: being a lesbian? 427 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 3: Like I think it's a little bit of both if 428 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: you think about it, you know, because they always suspect 429 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 3: you know, whoever's close right to the victim at first, 430 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 3: so I'm sure that was in the back of their minds. 431 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,960 Speaker 3: And then on top of them probably not approving, you know, 432 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 3: of her lifestyle. 433 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,120 Speaker 1: M Yeah, I mean, if nothing else, it reveals that 434 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: the police were, you know, more concerned with her fringe 435 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:32,800 Speaker 1: lifestyle than they were with solving her murder perhaps, so 436 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: that's maybe where her sexuality plays a contextual purpose in 437 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,800 Speaker 1: this case, right. So Unfortunately it didn't really end there. 438 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: Mary Anne went to Kitty's funeral only to have her family, 439 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: that is, Kitty's family, just refused to acknowledge her Mary Anne. 440 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: And then a few days later, Winston Moseley was arrested 441 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: as he tried to steal a television set from a 442 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:01,959 Speaker 1: nearby neighborhood. After this arrest, he apparently confessed to Kitty's murder, 443 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: which is surprising. Yeah, so a little bit about Winston Mosley. 444 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: He was a twenty nine year old man who lived 445 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: in Ozone Park, which is basically the same neighborhood where 446 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: he was arrested. He was married with three children, and 447 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: he worked as a tab operator, which means that he 448 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: would punch tabs in cards which are used in computers 449 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: at the time, and he actually didn't have a criminal 450 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: record before this point. Still, he told police that he 451 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: had committed thirty to forty robberies along with the murders 452 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,959 Speaker 1: he had confessed to already, so in addition to Kitty's murder, 453 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 1: he had also killed a woman named Annie May Johnson 454 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: a few weeks before by shooting her and setting her 455 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,240 Speaker 1: on fire, like. 456 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,520 Speaker 3: This is just you know, beyond I mean, we go 457 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 3: back to psychopath, right, and I just point out that 458 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 3: Annie May Johnson was black. You know, so Kitty was 459 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: Italian American. Annie May Johnson was African American. He also 460 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 3: had an IQ of one thirty five, and he was 461 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 3: a very like small frame. 462 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 5: Man. 463 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: I go back to thinking about George Odell and just 464 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:11,880 Speaker 3: doctor Jekyll, mister Hyde. 465 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: It's interesting that he supposedly has gotten away with thirty 466 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: to forty crimes and or murders without ever being discovered 467 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: up until this point, right, Like, to me, that suggests 468 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: somebody who is very probably cunning, knows what they're doing, 469 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: knows how to calculate tricks, very calculated exactly. So it 470 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: could be this was like a low key serial killer 471 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: that was hiding in the shadows this whole time. And 472 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: for sure of that, you know, as you were alluding to, 473 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: it could be he had some sort of target on 474 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,199 Speaker 1: marginalized people. I don't know that for sure. I'm just speculating, 475 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: but you know, based on the track record that you 476 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 1: were laying out, it's very possible and that very much 477 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: falls in line with them of a lot of serial 478 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: killers at the time, right, So I don't know, maybe 479 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,439 Speaker 1: there's something more to look at there in the future. 480 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: Moving forward with his track record, he also confessed to 481 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: the murder of a fifteen year old named Barbara Kralik, 482 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: whose murder he was not charged with, incidentally, because apparently 483 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: somebody else had already confessed to that crime. Right. 484 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 3: And this is just this is so odd to me 485 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 3: because he's just confessing to all of these crimes. But 486 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: like you just said, right, he's never been convicted. It's 487 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 3: so bizarre on so many levels. 488 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 4: He wants the credit. 489 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: Maybe again, that's another serial killer trait, right. I don't 490 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: know if you guys have ever read the writings of 491 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: John Douglas, the famous FBI profialer, but he finds that 492 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: that is something that is very common in serial killers 493 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: of the sixties and seventies. So anyhow, on June eighth, 494 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: Mosley's trial begins and he played it not guilty by 495 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: a reason of insanity. Not the first time we've seen this, right, 496 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 1: And then after seven hours of deliberation, the jury returned, 497 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,080 Speaker 1: of course, with a pretty straightforward guilty verdict. 498 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 2: Needless to say, it is good that he is convicted, 499 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: and a few days later, Mosely is sentenced to death. 500 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 2: Mosley doesn't even react to this, but the audience in 501 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,959 Speaker 2: the courtroom collapse in cheers. The judge ends up ordering 502 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,719 Speaker 2: them to remain calm, but he also says, and this 503 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 2: is a quote from the judge, although I do not 504 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,760 Speaker 2: believe in capital punishment. When I see a monster like this, 505 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 2: I wouldn't hesitate to pull the switch myself. 506 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: End quote. 507 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 1: So he's sentenced and sent to prism. But then three 508 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: years later, in nineteen sixty seven, a court ruled that 509 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: Moseley should have had the chance to argue that he 510 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: was medically insane, and his sentence was then reduced to 511 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: life in prison. So then things take another bad turn. 512 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: As he was being escorted back to prison from a 513 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: hospital in Buffalo where he was being treated for a 514 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: self inflicted injury, he actually escaped, so he beat a 515 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 1: corrections officer, stole their weapon, and was able to flee. 516 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,120 Speaker 4: And do so much more damage. 517 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: So he ends up going into a vacant house owned 518 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 1: by an older woman. Three days later, her son Matthew 519 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: and his wife visit the house and Mosley takes them hostage. 520 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: He binds them, and he gags them, and he rapes 521 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: Matthew's wife. He stayed for another hour before fleeing again 522 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: to another home, where he held a mother and daughter 523 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: hostage for a couple hours before he was finally arrested again. Sheez. 524 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 3: I mean, we can obviously say he is not a 525 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 3: sympathetic person. It just seems like nothing phases this guy, 526 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, He's just like cold. I 527 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 3: read something recently and something that Winston Moseley said in 528 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 3: one of the parorole hearings, and this was years later. 529 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 3: This is a quote he says, for a victim outside 530 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 3: a one time or a one hour or a one 531 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 3: minute affair, but for the person who's caught, it's forever. 532 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:15,160 Speaker 3: Like it's forever for the victims and their families. 533 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just a type of delusional, psychopathic thinking, right. 534 00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 3: Yeah. 535 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: I think he probably has some chemical and I don't 536 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: know much about his upbringing, but you know, some sort 537 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: of chemical imbalance that leads his thinking to again lean 538 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: towards psychopathy. I think I think it's more of that coldness, 539 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 1: you know. I think this person has you know, very 540 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: violent leanings and clearly lacks any empathy whatsoever towards other humans. 541 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, like you escape prison and you'd think you'd like 542 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: flee to Mexico and like ghost like live on a 543 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: beach the rest of your life or something. But he 544 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 2: breaks out and he hurts multiple people. 545 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,960 Speaker 3: He was denied parole and and he died in prison 546 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 3: at you know, the age of eighty one. 547 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: So meanwhile, what does live on is this myth about 548 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 2: the murder of Kitty Genovese. What was genuinely, you know, 549 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: so sad at the time is that people came, but 550 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 2: they came too late, but they did come. 551 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 4: Her neighbors did. 552 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 2: Try to help her, as we've gone over during this episode. 553 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 2: So why did we all learn this myth that thirty 554 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: eight people looked on but didn't help Kitty. 555 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,840 Speaker 1: Well, I think, like most things, it's all about the 556 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: way the message is portrayed by the media right to 557 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: people in the republic. So most of this came from 558 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: a New York Times story published two weeks after the murder, 559 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: and the literal headline was quote thirty eight who saw murder, 560 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: didn't call police end quote. And of course this article 561 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: was riddled with inaccuracies. For example, the piece claimed quote 562 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: for more than half an hour, thirty eight respectable law 563 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: abiding citizens and queens watched a killer stock and stab 564 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: a woman in three separate attacks in Q gardens. Not 565 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: one person telephoned the police during the assault. One witness 566 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: called after the woman was dead. So, as we've said 567 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: this whole episode, very few of those things are true. 568 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 3: Right, Yes, the thing that really sticks with me about 569 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 3: this case is when that article was written in the 570 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 3: New York Times about the thirty eight bystanders that consciously 571 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 3: affected the masses of people. 572 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 4: Right. 573 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: Yes, there are people who don't want to get involved, 574 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 3: but most importantly people do want to get involved. People 575 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 3: do want to help their neighbors, and that that is 576 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: the disservice that that particular article led for the masses. 577 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say as a trained journalist, obviously getting 578 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 1: things accurate is in credit important to me, and you know, 579 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: like any journalist, it would bug me when I discover 580 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: in accuracies in well known publications. You know. That said, 581 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: there is a bit of a maybe unintended silver lining 582 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: that was pretty common with media in the mid century 583 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: American publications, which is that they would over dramatize certain 584 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,719 Speaker 1: issues for the sake of scaring people into being better. 585 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: So although this was inaccurate, it did have the effect 586 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: of exposing this kind of issue to people. Even if 587 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 1: the issue is not this black and white, it can 588 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: certainly be an issue, right that a group of bystanders 589 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 1: don't do anything because they assume everybody else is going 590 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,080 Speaker 1: to do something. Like again, that's in psychology books. That 591 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: is a thing, right, So now everybody knows about that 592 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 1: as a thing, and now more people are cautious about that. 593 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:56,520 Speaker 1: You know, even if their understanding of the issue is flawed, right, 594 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: at least they're to some degree conscious of it. And 595 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: you know, maybe next time that that happens in their neighborhood, 596 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: now that they've read this New York Times article, they 597 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: would know to do something and they wouldn't want to 598 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:09,720 Speaker 1: be like the people they read about in that news article. 599 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: So I don't know, like it's kind of a double 600 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: edged sword, right, it serves some purpose and then you know, 601 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: kind of flounders on the other side of the coin. 602 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: So just something to consider, right, yep. 603 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 2: One huge positive thing that came out of this crime. 604 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 2: And this is exactly why when I was speaking to David, 605 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 2: my beautiful friend, I knew we had to do this 606 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: story because Kitty Genovese was murdered. 607 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 4: That actually led to the creation. 608 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 2: Of what we all now know today as nine to 609 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 2: one one that didn't exist back then, you know, like 610 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: the New York Times article stated how the thirty eight 611 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 2: people you know didn't come to her aid, but two 612 00:34:57,400 --> 00:34:58,280 Speaker 2: people did call. 613 00:34:58,160 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 4: The police, you know. 614 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 2: And maybe if we would have had nine one one 615 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 2: back then, maybe Kitty would have made it. 616 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,280 Speaker 4: Maybe she would have lived. 617 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: Strange to imagine a world without nine one one. 618 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: But yeah, one person who remembered Kitty Genovas before she 619 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 2: was a victim was really the love of her life 620 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,799 Speaker 2: at the time, her girlfriend, mary Anne Zelanko. In two 621 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,080 Speaker 2: thousand and four, Mary Anne spoke to the like I 622 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,839 Speaker 2: said the Chicago Tribune, and I'm going to quote that 623 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,919 Speaker 2: piece here in trying to do it without tears. 624 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 4: To Zelonko, Jeno Vase is alive. She is still. 625 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 2: Standing there in the Manhattan bar where her two first 626 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,359 Speaker 2: met on an early spring day in nineteen sixty three, 627 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:50,480 Speaker 2: running a hand through her short brown hair while taking 628 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 2: a drag from the end of a camel cigarette. Jenovas 629 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 2: was a talkative woman with big brown eyes and infectious 630 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,719 Speaker 2: giggle and a tiny gap but the tip of her 631 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 2: two front teeth, and the twenty five year old Celanco 632 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: was smitten. 633 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 3: And this brings us to our Emua always our message 634 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 3: of hope and healing. And I really think about my 635 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 3: mom right now, because my mom, I should say. Our 636 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:32,560 Speaker 3: mom would always say to look for the helpers. So 637 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 3: our Emua goes out to the good neighbors among us. 638 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 4: We see you, yes we do. 639 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: And Sophie Ferrar was Kitty Jenno Vese's neighbor. Sophie risked 640 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: her own life by rushing in to save Kitty's life, 641 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 2: and she cradled the dying woman's head in her lap, 642 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 2: trying to comfort her in what would be her final 643 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,920 Speaker 2: moments on this earth. 644 00:36:56,560 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 3: We can make the largest difference in someone's life alone, 645 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:05,359 Speaker 3: life saving difference simply by noticing a neighbor helping them 646 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 3: taking action. That action may be simple, It might just 647 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 3: be a conversation, just asking someone how are you, how 648 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 3: is your day? But such kindness, whether it be large 649 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 3: or small, it makes a big difference. 650 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 2: And if you are someone who has showed up for 651 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 2: a neighbor or been kind of a stranger, we see you. 652 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 3: And we thank you onward and upward emua Ema. Well, 653 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 3: that is our show for today. We'd love to hear 654 00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 3: what you thought about today's discussion and if there is 655 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 3: a case that you would like us to cover, find 656 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 3: us on social media or Facing Evil Pod or email 657 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 3: us at Facing Evil Pod at Tenderfoot dot tv. 658 00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: And one request, if you haven't already, please find us 659 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 2: on iTunes and give us a review and good rating. 660 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 2: If you like what we do, your support is always cherished. 661 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,799 Speaker 4: Until next time, Aloha. 662 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV. 663 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:33,040 Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacuerero in a Vetchentile. 664 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,520 Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams our executive producers on behalf 665 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio, with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk, Donald 666 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: Albright and Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of 667 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:51,520 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico. 668 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on 669 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: social media or email us at Facing Evil Pod at 670 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: Tenderfoot for more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. Visit 671 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to 672 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:10,480 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.