WEBVTT - Selects: What's the deal with subpoenas? 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:01.960 How to everybody. 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:04.160 I'm just staring at this subpoena on my desk that 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:06.880 I'm going to ignore because I don't care about the 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:07.640 rule of law. 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:09.000 This, Chuck. 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:13.240 It's Saturday, and from October twenty nineteen, we are replaying 0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:17.840 this episode about subpoenas. It's called What's the Deal with Subpoenas? Or, 0:00:17.880 --> 0:00:21.720 as Jerry Seinfeld might say, h what's the deal with subpoenas? 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:24.880 That's my best Jerry Seinfeld. I hope you enjoyed it. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:37.360 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:40.720 Hey, welcome to the podcast. 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:43.680 I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:48.760 there's Jerry Jerome Rowland over there, the Legal Eagles of podcasting. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:51.199 Ooh, can I be Daryl Hannah? 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.520 Yes, I call Barbara Hershey. 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:55.240 I don't think so. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:59.800 Who was it, oh, Legal Eagles? I know Deborah Winger? Yes, 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:01.600 was Daryl Hannah even in that now. 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:03.720 Yeah, she was the client of Deborah Winger. 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:05.319 Okay, and you're not Redford? 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.000 No, they always have to be Redford. Everybody's always like that. 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.680 Guy's a regular Robert Redford. He'll play him in this scenario. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.120 Right, that's that's the street chatter. 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:16.800 Yeah. 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:19.080 Can I still be Barbara Hershey even though she wasn't 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.200 in the movie. Sure, I think I'm thinking of beaches. 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:25.759 Oh well, that means I get to be Bette Midler, right. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.160 I wonder how many podsave America listeners we just lost 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:31.440 to it just casually decided to give us a chance. 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:35.240 I want to learn about subpoenas, all right. Before we 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:36.240 get going, though, can we. 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.640 Quickly thank the cities of Orlando and Greater Orlando and 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.319 Florida and New Orleans and Greater Louisiana. Yes, for two 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:46.360 fun live shows. 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.200 Yeah, those were a lot of fun. Let's see. 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.600 We did Orlando on October ninth, I think, and then 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:57.120 the tenth for New Orleans. Regardless, it was night back 0:01:57.160 --> 0:01:59.520 to back, two fun filled nights, and they were just 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:00.559 both the main shows. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:01.200 Yeah. 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:03.680 And when this comes out, I think New York will 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:05.000 have been over. So thank you New York. 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.600 Oh yeah, yeah, we we presume it's going to have 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:10.840 been a great time that three night run at the Bellhouse. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:11.760 They're always great there. 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:14.160 And that's it too. 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.640 That's it for us for the for the year, Chuck, 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:19.240 So I mean thank you to everybody who came out 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:20.480 to see our shows this year. 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.000 Yeah, can we go ahead and tease our our January 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:26.520 schedule for should we not? 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:27.880 I think we can sure? 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:29.040 All right, well, well. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.799 We're hoping to be back at sketch Fest again. And 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:33.040 then what did we settle on? 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:36.920 We I don't know settling is the right way to 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:40.679 put it up. We decided between the Seattle. We're doing Seattle, 0:02:40.760 --> 0:02:44.240 oh we are, yeah, and normally for a January swing 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.919 we do Portland Seattle sketch Fest. Right, Well, we've got 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.160 the iHeart Radio Awards in there in Los Angeles and 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:56.600 we just you know, kind of have to go to that. No, sorry, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.960 the iHeart Podcast Awards. They don't care about us at 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:00.280 all at the radio now. 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:01.960 We can't even get in that building. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:02.320 Right exactly. 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.880 So we said, okay, well we gotta we gotta pull 0:03:04.919 --> 0:03:07.520 out one of our shows because we're old men and 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.520 we just can't spend that much time on the road. 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.680 So instead we're going to take Portland and put it 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:15.040 with another town in the spring. 0:03:15.160 --> 0:03:17.399 So don't worry Portland, we will be out there. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:18.360 Maybe maybe the Cove. 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.800 That's what that's the talk, that's the chatter around town. 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:24.680 But we have no dates confirmed yet. But this just 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.200 look for us again in the Pacific Northwest at the 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:27.919 beginning of the year. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:29.680 That's a much better way to put it. 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:32.680 Yeah, So, do you want to talk about subpoenas You 0:03:32.680 --> 0:03:34.160 got any other housekeeping to do? 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:37.880 I don't think so. Subpoenas weird spelling. 0:03:39.000 --> 0:03:42.080 Well, yeah, so I looked up the word subpoena is 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.560 actually two words. It means under penalty, and it's typically 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.560 the first two words that were read in this rid 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:53.240 of subpoena, basically saying under penalty. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.520 Of blah blah blah. 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:56.839 Yeah. 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:58.600 I was thinking all I could think about is really 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:00.000 dirty but dark stuff. 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:01.840 Oh yeah, yeah, so I just. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.600 Let you fill in the blah blah blah. But anyway, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.920 under penalty of whatever, you need to do one of 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.720 two things. And there are two types of subpoenas that 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:14.920 everybody you know, everybody hears subpoena and you think, like 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:18.400 Law and Order, Maybe visions of Central Park run through 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:21.200 your head because that's your only exposure to Central Park 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:22.120 is from Law and Order. 0:04:22.240 --> 0:04:25.880 Yeah, or you think of the US government because a 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:27.920 lot of this is going to be about congressional subpoenas 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:29.680 because that's really the juiciest subpoena. 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.760 Yeah, that's It's not like it's new that Congress has 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.560 just recently started issuing subpoenas. It's new in the conscious 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:39.920 of America in this age, this generation. 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:41.440 I mean, it's been going on for a while. 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:46.080 But normally when people think subpoenas, until like basically twenty seventeen, 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:52.080 sixteen eighteen, not necessarily in that order, most people thought 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.880 of courtroom subpoenas, and that is, you know, typically the 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.520 subpoena most people are ever going to come up against 0:04:57.560 --> 0:04:58.359 in their lifetime. 0:04:58.920 --> 0:04:59.320 That's right. 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:02.760 But you mentioned the two types. Do you want to 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:04.960 break out your Latin or shall. 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.520 I you take the first, I'll take the second. 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:09.960 Oh okay, the first one's easy. 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.440 The first one is subpoena add testify candem. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.960 Wow did you see that? You just made a mouse 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.680 appear and run out of the room. The next one 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.480 so so sorry. The first one, the one you just said. 0:05:24.800 --> 0:05:25.960 That means you got to come to court. 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.039 You just nailed it. 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.280 Yeah, it says that you have to come and testify, 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.560 and you might not be a party to the lawsuit 0:05:33.640 --> 0:05:35.680 like this is. It can be a civil case or 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:37.720 a criminal case, that's a big thing to point out, 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.640 but basically it's saying, you have some information. You witnessed 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:49.040 an act, you overheard a conversation, the defendant confessed something 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:50.840 to you. We need you to come to court and 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:54.320 tell your story. And that's what that first subpoena is 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:54.920 saying to do. 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.359 Yeah, and not necessarily court court, but it can be 0:05:57.400 --> 0:05:58.640 any kind of legal authority. 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.839 Yeah, it could be a deposition, it could be an arbitration, 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.680 but typically it's the authority of a court of law 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.280 to basically say we're going to levy a fine against you, 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:12.040 or we're going to arrest you and put you in 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:16.320 jail if you don't listen. That's that's used to kind 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:20.280 of enforce subpoenas. So the second one is the subpoena 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:26.080 douces teakum, Hey nice, thank you, and that is basically saying, hey, 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.800 you have a document, you have a hair sample, you 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:32.400 have some sort of bodily fluids we want to get 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:33.080 our hands on. 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:34.960 You have a computer. 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:41.680 Or a computer hard drive, you know, something like that 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:44.360 that we want you to produce because we want to 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.440 use it as evidence. And there's a really important point 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.080 to put here, Like a court is saying, a court 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.240 or an official of the court or of the government 0:06:54.320 --> 0:06:57.200 is saying, we want you to do this because we 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.679 have this lawsuit going on and you have something we need. 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:02.400 But it's not necessarily the judge saying, and the judge 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:05.280 is signing off on it. It's really a lawyer or 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:07.760 for one side or the other saying, Hey, I heard 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.680 that this person has this secret tape and I need 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:12.560 to get my hands on it. Judge, can you order 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.840 this person to bring it to me so that I 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:16.120 can enter it into evidence. 0:07:16.400 --> 0:07:19.040 And then the judge says, speak to my clerk, and 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:21.480 then the clerk of the usually the clerk of the 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:22.160 judge who's. 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:25.680 Handling that case, they say, talk to the hand. 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:30.000 Yeah, and they'll generally issue it on on like official 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.040 court letterhead and official documentation. It's not like the judge 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.000 is washing their hands of it necessarily. 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.000 No, No, I'm sure like if they do something egregiously wrong, 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.320 the judge is going to hear about it and punish them. 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:47.120 That's right. And then it served usually in person kind 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:48.840 of you know, handed to you like on the TV 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:49.880 shows and in the movies. 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.360 Yeah, either by a sheriff's deputy or a process server. 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:55.480 Yeah, but not always. 0:07:55.560 --> 0:08:00.640 It depends on if it's congressional or if it's you know, 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:03.280 civil regular Joshmo stuff. 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:05.720 Yeah. Well, yeah for sure. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.480 But I think even if it is regular civil joshmost stuff, 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:12.880 you can still go higher the sheriff's department to serve papers. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:14.640 To serve a subpoena, oh for sure. 0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.800 I think the congressional ones are not served by a shriff. 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.240 Oh, I see, who do they use? 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:21.320 I think it depends it could. 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.600 I mean the way congressional subpoena's work is all sort 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.720 of dependent on the individual committee that's seeking that subpoena. 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:32.640 So they all have their own individual rules about like 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.040 whether you need a majority vote to even get a subpoena, 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.480 or whether the chair of that committee is, you know, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.680 has the power to grant or request a subpoena. 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:44.880 Right, I've read some of them know that it's a 0:08:44.920 --> 0:08:48.319 real downer to get a subpoena. Say, some congressional committees 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.160 use that mascot from the nineteen eighty four Olympics, the Eagle, 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.480 to come issue your. 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:55.400 Papers to you. 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:57.000 I don't remember that one. 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:58.200 You don't remember that eagle. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.160 Now it's like a cartoon eagle from nineteen eighty four. 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:03.480 Yeah, I mean all I can. 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:06.719 I can't get past the Atlanta Olympics mascot. That's why 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.160 I can't get back to nineteen eighty four? 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:09.760 Was it? What's it? Or who's it? 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:10.839 Oh? I don't even know. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.720 It was one of those too. What was that thing? 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:14.679 I don't know. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:17.200 It was a last last minute thing. 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:18.720 What was the name it was? 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:20.160 What's it? Or who's it? Was it? 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:20.680 Yes? 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.240 Yes, man, it was bad. I was out of town. 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:24.960 I fled. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:26.319 You didn't miss anything. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:31.679 But I do remember watching the opening whatever they're called, 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:36.720 the opening ceremonies, Opening ceremonies, right, and seeing the stainless 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.880 steel pickup trucks driving around and just thinking, oh boy. 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:41.040 Yeah. 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:42.840 And for those of you who are like, they've talked 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:45.040 about this before, we have. Yeah, we have, and we're 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:46.200 still that upset about it. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.120 We'll talk about it again in five more years. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:49.320 We haven't forgotten. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.760 Yeah, stainless steel pickup trucks. They haunt me. I have 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:53.120 dreams about those trucks. 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:57.520 Yeah, they're just circling you, playing striper at the loudest 0:09:57.559 --> 0:10:03.040 possible volume. Oh man, Okay, So we've got different kinds 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.520 of subpoenas, but both of them apply to either courts 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:10.320 of law or Congress. So there's one big question that 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.760 most people who get a subpoena ask themselves the moment 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.400 they're served the paper, and that is, can I ignore 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:17.800 this thing? 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:19.640 Do I have to do this right? 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:22.600 What happens to me if I just pretend like I 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:24.320 never got this? And that's really tough to do. I 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:29.800 was reading about process servers and the people who are 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.400 issuing the subpoena or the lawyer who's asking for the 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:34.560 subpoena to say, they want some sort of proof that 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.600 says you got that paper, so they have to. There's 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.520 like certain rules and regulations to serving somebody with a subpoena, 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:46.520 so it's really difficult to pretend like you're not, like 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:49.000 you didn't get it, and a lot of people actually 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:51.480 go to a tremendous amount of trouble to avoid being 0:10:51.520 --> 0:10:54.600 served a subpoena. They will like move around, they will 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.600 pretend they're not home, they won't let anyone else answer 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.600 the door because in some states you can leave it 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:02.200 with a competent thirteen year old or eighteen year old. 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:03.920 They'll stick their hands in their ears and go. 0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:05.080 La la la la la la. 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:07.679 Right, exactly, they'll do a lot of stuff to keep 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:10.640 from being served, but that's actually it will. 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:12.040 Just delay being served. 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:15.880 In the long run, you will still there's other remedies 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.440 they can use. They can mail it to your house 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.800 certified mail. And if the male person says this was 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:24.800 dropped off, it made it to their house, that's enough. 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.199 Or if you can say I took the numbers off 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.040 my mailbox, what are you going to do now, chump. 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.640 They can actually post an ad in the local legal 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:38.280 organ the newspaper, and then that will be considered serving you. 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:42.120 So either way, you're going to end up being considered 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.920 to have received the subpoena eventually, and if you do, 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:46.880 you probably shouldn't ignore it. 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.400 Yeah, I mean it says here in this article, which 0:11:51.280 --> 0:11:53.000 most of this is from the House Stuff Works article 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.719 about saboenas, but it says, you know, it's a lot 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.000 easier if you just go right or produce the documents. 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.199 But we'll cover here in a lot of this congressional 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.280 oversight stuff that is not the route that people take 0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:07.120 generally in government. 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:09.440 Yeah, and I thought it was kind of an oversight 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:11.880 to not say like, but also if somebody serves you 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.959 with a subpoena, like go, you don't necessarily have to 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.280 hire a lawyer, but at least consult with one, like 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:19.960 get some legal advice, say this is what I got. 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.920 You know, what should I do with this? 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:22.760 Is this? 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.720 You know, you know, there's a lot of questions that 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.000 you should have answered before you just act on a subpoena. 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:32.720 Yeah, and you know, when it comes to ignoring subpoenas, 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:33.960 and that's what a lot. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:34.640 Of this will be about. 0:12:34.760 --> 0:12:38.679 Is what's going on with our government right now and 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.840 previously and what happens if you defy Congress And is 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.600 there any accountability for that or can you just sit 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.199 on your hands say nope. 0:12:47.640 --> 0:12:49.000 But there have been some very. 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:54.120 Famous cases in the past, you know, fifteen years or 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.240 so where subpoenas have been ignored, starting well, not starting 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:01.640 with but we can start with Eric Holder, Attorney General 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:02.600 for Barack Obama. 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:04.520 Yeah, that was a big one. 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.080 That was part of the Operation the Fast and Furious 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:10.480 scandal scandal. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:15.320 Yeah, it was definitely a scandal. From what I remember, 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.200 it involved like secret gun sales or else. Some guns 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.839 were led out into the community to be traced to 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:23.760 see who they went. To and one of them ended 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.319 up being used to murder an ice officer, I believe well. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.720 Attorney General Eric Holder refused, under direction of Obama, to 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.520 answer that subpoena, and he became the first sitting cabinet 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.440 member to be voted in contempt of Congress. 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:40.400 Oh was that right? 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:41.480 Yeah? 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.400 And you know you're like, oh, what happens in well, 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.480 three and a half years later a judge ruled that 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.720 he did not have the right to defy Congress, and 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:54.480 by that time there was a new Congress, and it 0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:55.199 was a mood point. 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:58.960 That's a really big big thing to remember. Is like 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.640 an eempt of Congress vote where you are supposedly in 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.040 trouble for ignoring a subpoena, only lasts as long as 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.680 that session of Congress. 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:11.160 Unless the next session of Congress wants to pick it up. 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:13.440 Yes, but then they have to hold another vote. And 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:17.240 the chances that that the that there has been a 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.640 change in leadership potentially in that Congress is you know, 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:23.720 high enough that if you if you make it through 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:28.240 that Congress, you know going into recess, you you're probably 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.640 going to get away with it. And I mean that's 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:32.560 par for the course. It wasn't just Eric Holder who 0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.440 got away with it. Harriet Myers, who was a White 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:36.880 House counsel to George W. 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:37.520 Bush. 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.040 There was like a mass political firing of US attorneys. 0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:44.920 Yeah, and two thousand and eight yep. 0:14:44.840 --> 0:14:47.280 And she and I think chief of staff at the time, 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:51.720 Joshua Bolton, were both held in contempt of Congress. And man, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.680 if you look up, like you know, follow up reporting 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.280 on this stuff, it's like, you know, while it's going on, 0:14:57.320 --> 0:15:01.120 they're like they could face fines, jail time. Finally I 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.160 found some follow up as like nothing nothing happened, Absolutely 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.840 nothing happened. There was no legal ramifications, there were no 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:13.040 personal ramifications. There was nothing happened whatsoever to Harriet Myers 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:17.080 or Joshua Bolton or Eric Holder for just saying Congress, 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.000 the United States Congress, go sit on it, yeah, which 0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:25.200 is essentially what you're saying when you ignore a subpoenas yeah. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:30.240 And because of this, you remember Representative darryl Isa probably 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.760 by name. He was involved in trying to get Eric Holder, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:38.000 you know, in the room, and he was so mad 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.960 he sponsored or intro to bill to strengthen subpoena enforcement power, 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:47.360 and it died in the Senate, and before we I 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:48.360 think we're about to take a break. 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:49.760 Before we do that, though, we should. 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:54.400 Mention that currently White House Counsel Don McGann has refused 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:59.600 to testify or refused to answer his subpoena under direct 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:04.480 order of Trump, and right now he's being sued by 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.520 the House right of August. 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:12.040 And he in particular provides an unusual situation because at 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.560 least with Harriet Myers, or with Joshua Bolton, or with 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.760 Eric Holder, when they were directed by the President at 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:22.440 the time not to submit to that subpoena from Congress, 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.040 they were part of the president's staff. Don McGann was 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:30.560 instructed not to not to cooperate with the subpoena after 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.480 he had already left civil service. He was no longer 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.200 part of the executive branch. So that definitely makes it unusual. 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:38.480 But if you're sitting there and your head is popping 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.400 and you're saying, how wait, how this is Congress. How 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:44.680 can a president just say just ignore that subpoena and 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.840 people get away with it. There's actually a lot of 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:51.640 case law that's been built over the centuries that kind 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:54.320 of establishes that. And I say, Chuck, we take a break, 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.200 and then we'll dive into that after this case. 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:30.840 Law Josh. 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.439 So Chuck, there's something about subpoenas, whether they're issued by 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.280 Congress or by a court of law, when you get 0:17:26.280 --> 0:17:31.640 them that a lot of people don't realize they're negotiable. Yeah, 0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.520 that's one really big reason to hire a lawyer is 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.960 because they it may be overly broad, it may be 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.760 kind of a phishing expedition. It may put you at 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:44.479 risk to come forward and give this testimony or to 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:47.320 hand over these documents. And if you hire a lawyer 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.480 and say, hey, these are the things I'm worried about, 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:52.120 they can go and argue to the judge like, hey, 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:55.040 how about we just limit this subpoena to these documents 0:17:55.119 --> 0:17:58.600 rather than everything on my client's hard drive. Or it's 0:17:58.800 --> 0:18:01.360 really a big hardship for my client to make it here, 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.680 and the fifteen dollars a day that the court's paying 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.080 him for coming to testify isn't actually going to cover it, So, 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.520 you know, can we negotiate a higher fee or something 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.680 like that. There's a lot of stuff that can be done, 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:19.160 but this is a tactic that's also used with congressional subpoenas. Too, 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.280 where say, like the executive branch will go, I think 0:18:23.280 --> 0:18:25.320 that this is a little overly broad, but maybe we 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:26.520 could give you this document. 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:27.560 Will that satisfy you? 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:28.920 And then I go nope. 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:32.240 Sometimes I say yes, though, and part of that negotiation 0:18:32.400 --> 0:18:35.840 comes out of this subpoena process. It's a response to it. 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:39.920 But none of it would have any effect whatsoever if 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:46.120 Congress didn't have any redress for enforcing its subpoenas. If 0:18:46.160 --> 0:18:47.199 somebody ignores it. 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.359 Yeah, I mean, technically there are fines in jail time 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.600 sort of looming. But the more I read about this stuff, 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.240 especially when it comes to Congressional oversight, the more it 0:18:57.280 --> 0:19:00.840 became clear that none of that stuff really happens. It's 0:19:00.880 --> 0:19:05.120 all just dangled out there as a means to negotiate 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.639 something with each other over a pretty long period of 0:19:09.640 --> 0:19:11.120 time usually for sure. 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.480 Yeah, that Eric Holder thing was it was like four 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.040 years before he finally handed over the file, and I 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.560 think Congress had already gone out a session, you said, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:22.000 And it was basically just the whole thing had died down, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:26.000 which I think is basically the stalling tactic that people 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.120 ignore subpoenas for like that's why they're doing it. 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:29.719 Yeah. 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.919 So technically, if you defy Congress, the committee that issued 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:37.000 that subpoena is going to vote to issue a citation, 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:39.560