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Speaker 1: How to everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm just staring at this subpoena on my desk that

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Speaker 2: I'm going to ignore because I don't care about the

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Speaker 2: rule of law.

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Speaker 1: This, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: It's Saturday, and from October twenty nineteen, we are replaying

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Speaker 2: this episode about subpoenas. It's called What's the Deal with Subpoenas? Or,

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Speaker 2: as Jerry Seinfeld might say, h what's the deal with subpoenas?

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Speaker 2: That's my best Jerry Seinfeld. I hope you enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 4: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and

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Speaker 4: there's Jerry Jerome Rowland over there, the Legal Eagles of podcasting.

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Speaker 1: Ooh, can I be Daryl Hannah?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I call Barbara Hershey.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: Who was it, oh, Legal Eagles? I know Deborah Winger? Yes,

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Speaker 2: was Daryl Hannah even in that now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she was the client of Deborah Winger.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you're not Redford?

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Speaker 4: No, they always have to be Redford. Everybody's always like that.

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Speaker 4: Guy's a regular Robert Redford. He'll play him in this scenario.

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Speaker 1: Right, that's that's the street chatter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Can I still be Barbara Hershey even though she wasn't

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Speaker 4: in the movie. Sure, I think I'm thinking of beaches.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, that means I get to be Bette Midler, right.

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Speaker 4: I wonder how many podsave America listeners we just lost

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Speaker 4: to it just casually decided to give us a chance.

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Speaker 1: I want to learn about subpoenas, all right. Before we

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Speaker 1: get going, though, can we.

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Speaker 2: Quickly thank the cities of Orlando and Greater Orlando and

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Speaker 2: Florida and New Orleans and Greater Louisiana. Yes, for two

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Speaker 2: fun live shows.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, those were a lot of fun. Let's see.

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Speaker 4: We did Orlando on October ninth, I think, and then

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Speaker 4: the tenth for New Orleans. Regardless, it was night back

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Speaker 4: to back, two fun filled nights, and they were just

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Speaker 4: both the main shows.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And when this comes out, I think New York will

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Speaker 2: have been over. So thank you New York.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, yeah, we we presume it's going to have

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Speaker 4: been a great time that three night run at the Bellhouse.

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Speaker 1: They're always great there.

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Speaker 3: And that's it too.

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Speaker 4: That's it for us for the for the year, Chuck,

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Speaker 4: So I mean thank you to everybody who came out

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Speaker 4: to see our shows this year.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, can we go ahead and tease our our January

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Speaker 2: schedule for should we not?

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Speaker 3: I think we can sure?

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Speaker 1: All right, well, well.

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Speaker 2: We're hoping to be back at sketch Fest again. And

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Speaker 2: then what did we settle on?

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Speaker 4: We I don't know settling is the right way to

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Speaker 4: put it up. We decided between the Seattle. We're doing Seattle,

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Speaker 4: oh we are, yeah, and normally for a January swing

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Speaker 4: we do Portland Seattle sketch Fest. Right, Well, we've got

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Speaker 4: the iHeart Radio Awards in there in Los Angeles and

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Speaker 4: we just you know, kind of have to go to that. No, sorry,

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Speaker 4: the iHeart Podcast Awards. They don't care about us at

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Speaker 4: all at the radio now.

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Speaker 1: We can't even get in that building.

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Speaker 3: Right exactly.

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Speaker 4: So we said, okay, well we gotta we gotta pull

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Speaker 4: out one of our shows because we're old men and

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Speaker 4: we just can't spend that much time on the road.

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Speaker 4: So instead we're going to take Portland and put it

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Speaker 4: with another town in the spring.

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Speaker 3: So don't worry Portland, we will be out there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe the Cove.

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Speaker 3: That's what that's the talk, that's the chatter around town.

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Speaker 2: But we have no dates confirmed yet. But this just

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Speaker 2: look for us again in the Pacific Northwest at the

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Speaker 2: beginning of the year.

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Speaker 3: That's a much better way to put it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, do you want to talk about subpoenas You

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Speaker 4: got any other housekeeping to do?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. Subpoenas weird spelling.

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Speaker 4: Well, yeah, so I looked up the word subpoena is

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Speaker 4: actually two words. It means under penalty, and it's typically

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Speaker 4: the first two words that were read in this rid

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Speaker 4: of subpoena, basically saying under penalty.

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Speaker 1: Of blah blah blah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I was thinking all I could think about is really

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Speaker 4: dirty but dark stuff.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, so I just.

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Speaker 4: Let you fill in the blah blah blah. But anyway,

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Speaker 4: under penalty of whatever, you need to do one of

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Speaker 4: two things. And there are two types of subpoenas that

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Speaker 4: everybody you know, everybody hears subpoena and you think, like

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Speaker 4: Law and Order, Maybe visions of Central Park run through

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Speaker 4: your head because that's your only exposure to Central Park

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Speaker 4: is from Law and Order.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, or you think of the US government because a

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Speaker 2: lot of this is going to be about congressional subpoenas

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Speaker 2: because that's really the juiciest subpoena.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's It's not like it's new that Congress has

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Speaker 4: just recently started issuing subpoenas. It's new in the conscious

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Speaker 4: of America in this age, this generation.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's been going on for a while.

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Speaker 4: But normally when people think subpoenas, until like basically twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 4: sixteen eighteen, not necessarily in that order, most people thought

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Speaker 4: of courtroom subpoenas, and that is, you know, typically the

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Speaker 4: subpoena most people are ever going to come up against

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Speaker 4: in their lifetime.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: But you mentioned the two types. Do you want to

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Speaker 2: break out your Latin or shall.

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Speaker 3: I you take the first, I'll take the second.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, the first one's easy.

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Speaker 2: The first one is subpoena add testify candem.

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Speaker 4: Wow did you see that? You just made a mouse

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Speaker 4: appear and run out of the room. The next one

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Speaker 4: so so sorry. The first one, the one you just said.

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Speaker 1: That means you got to come to court.

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Speaker 3: You just nailed it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it says that you have to come and testify,

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Speaker 4: and you might not be a party to the lawsuit

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Speaker 4: like this is. It can be a civil case or

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Speaker 4: a criminal case, that's a big thing to point out,

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Speaker 4: but basically it's saying, you have some information. You witnessed

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Speaker 4: an act, you overheard a conversation, the defendant confessed something

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Speaker 4: to you. We need you to come to court and

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Speaker 4: tell your story. And that's what that first subpoena is

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Speaker 4: saying to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and not necessarily court court, but it can be

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Speaker 2: any kind of legal authority.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it could be a deposition, it could be an arbitration,

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Speaker 4: but typically it's the authority of a court of law

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Speaker 4: to basically say we're going to levy a fine against you,

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Speaker 4: or we're going to arrest you and put you in

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Speaker 4: jail if you don't listen. That's that's used to kind

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Speaker 4: of enforce subpoenas. So the second one is the subpoena

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Speaker 4: douces teakum, Hey nice, thank you, and that is basically saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: you have a document, you have a hair sample, you

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Speaker 4: have some sort of bodily fluids we want to get

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Speaker 4: our hands on.

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Speaker 3: You have a computer.

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Speaker 4: Or a computer hard drive, you know, something like that

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Speaker 4: that we want you to produce because we want to

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Speaker 4: use it as evidence. And there's a really important point

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Speaker 4: to put here, Like a court is saying, a court

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Speaker 4: or an official of the court or of the government

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Speaker 4: is saying, we want you to do this because we

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Speaker 4: have this lawsuit going on and you have something we need.

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Speaker 4: But it's not necessarily the judge saying, and the judge

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Speaker 4: is signing off on it. It's really a lawyer or

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Speaker 4: for one side or the other saying, Hey, I heard

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Speaker 4: that this person has this secret tape and I need

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Speaker 4: to get my hands on it. Judge, can you order

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Speaker 4: this person to bring it to me so that I

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Speaker 4: can enter it into evidence.

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Speaker 2: And then the judge says, speak to my clerk, and

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Speaker 2: then the clerk of the usually the clerk of the

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Speaker 2: judge who's.

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Speaker 3: Handling that case, they say, talk to the hand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they'll generally issue it on on like official

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Speaker 2: court letterhead and official documentation. It's not like the judge

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Speaker 2: is washing their hands of it necessarily.

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Speaker 4: No, No, I'm sure like if they do something egregiously wrong,

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Speaker 4: the judge is going to hear about it and punish them.

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Speaker 1: That's right. And then it served usually in person kind

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Speaker 1: of you know, handed to you like on the TV

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Speaker 1: shows and in the movies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, either by a sheriff's deputy or a process server.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but not always.

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Speaker 2: It depends on if it's congressional or if it's you know,

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Speaker 2: civil regular Joshmo stuff.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, yeah for sure.

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Speaker 4: But I think even if it is regular civil joshmost stuff,

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Speaker 4: you can still go higher the sheriff's department to serve papers.

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Speaker 3: To serve a subpoena, oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: I think the congressional ones are not served by a shriff.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see, who do they use?

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Speaker 1: I think it depends it could.

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Speaker 2: I mean the way congressional subpoena's work is all sort

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Speaker 2: of dependent on the individual committee that's seeking that subpoena.

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Speaker 2: So they all have their own individual rules about like

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Speaker 2: whether you need a majority vote to even get a subpoena,

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Speaker 2: or whether the chair of that committee is, you know,

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Speaker 2: has the power to grant or request a subpoena.

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Speaker 4: Right, I've read some of them know that it's a

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Speaker 4: real downer to get a subpoena. Say, some congressional committees

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Speaker 4: use that mascot from the nineteen eighty four Olympics, the Eagle,

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Speaker 4: to come issue your.

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Speaker 3: Papers to you.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember that one.

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Speaker 3: You don't remember that eagle.

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Speaker 4: Now it's like a cartoon eagle from nineteen eighty four.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean all I can.

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Speaker 2: I can't get past the Atlanta Olympics mascot. That's why

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Speaker 2: I can't get back to nineteen eighty four?

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Speaker 3: Was it? What's it? Or who's it?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I don't even know.

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Speaker 3: It was one of those too. What was that thing?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It was a last last minute thing.

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Speaker 1: What was the name it was?

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Speaker 3: What's it? Or who's it? Was it?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 2: Yes, man, it was bad. I was out of town.

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Speaker 2: I fled.

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Speaker 3: You didn't miss anything.

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Speaker 2: But I do remember watching the opening whatever they're called,

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Speaker 2: the opening ceremonies, Opening ceremonies, right, and seeing the stainless

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Speaker 2: steel pickup trucks driving around and just thinking, oh boy.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: And for those of you who are like, they've talked

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Speaker 4: about this before, we have. Yeah, we have, and we're

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Speaker 4: still that upset about it.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about it again in five more years.

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Speaker 3: We haven't forgotten.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, stainless steel pickup trucks. They haunt me. I have

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Speaker 1: dreams about those trucks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they're just circling you, playing striper at the loudest

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Speaker 4: possible volume. Oh man, Okay, So we've got different kinds

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Speaker 4: of subpoenas, but both of them apply to either courts

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Speaker 4: of law or Congress. So there's one big question that

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Speaker 4: most people who get a subpoena ask themselves the moment

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Speaker 4: they're served the paper, and that is, can I ignore

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Speaker 4: this thing?

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Speaker 3: Do I have to do this right?

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Speaker 4: What happens to me if I just pretend like I

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Speaker 4: never got this? And that's really tough to do. I

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Speaker 4: was reading about process servers and the people who are

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Speaker 4: issuing the subpoena or the lawyer who's asking for the

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Speaker 4: subpoena to say, they want some sort of proof that

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Speaker 4: says you got that paper, so they have to. There's

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Speaker 4: like certain rules and regulations to serving somebody with a subpoena,

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Speaker 4: so it's really difficult to pretend like you're not, like

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Speaker 4: you didn't get it, and a lot of people actually

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Speaker 4: go to a tremendous amount of trouble to avoid being

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Speaker 4: served a subpoena. They will like move around, they will

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Speaker 4: pretend they're not home, they won't let anyone else answer

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Speaker 4: the door because in some states you can leave it

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Speaker 4: with a competent thirteen year old or eighteen year old.

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Speaker 1: They'll stick their hands in their ears and go.

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Speaker 3: La la la la la la.

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Speaker 4: Right, exactly, they'll do a lot of stuff to keep

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Speaker 4: from being served, but that's actually it will.

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Speaker 3: Just delay being served.

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Speaker 4: In the long run, you will still there's other remedies

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Speaker 4: they can use. They can mail it to your house

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Speaker 4: certified mail. And if the male person says this was

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Speaker 4: dropped off, it made it to their house, that's enough.

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Speaker 4: Or if you can say I took the numbers off

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Speaker 4: my mailbox, what are you going to do now, chump.

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Speaker 4: They can actually post an ad in the local legal

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Speaker 4: organ the newspaper, and then that will be considered serving you.

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Speaker 4: So either way, you're going to end up being considered

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Speaker 4: to have received the subpoena eventually, and if you do,

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Speaker 4: you probably shouldn't ignore it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it says here in this article, which

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Speaker 2: most of this is from the House Stuff Works article

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Speaker 2: about saboenas, but it says, you know, it's a lot

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Speaker 2: easier if you just go right or produce the documents.

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Speaker 2: But we'll cover here in a lot of this congressional

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Speaker 2: oversight stuff that is not the route that people take

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Speaker 2: generally in government.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and I thought it was kind of an oversight

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Speaker 4: to not say like, but also if somebody serves you

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Speaker 4: with a subpoena, like go, you don't necessarily have to

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Speaker 4: hire a lawyer, but at least consult with one, like

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Speaker 4: get some legal advice, say this is what I got.

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Speaker 4: You know, what should I do with this?

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Speaker 3: Is this?

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Speaker 4: You know, you know, there's a lot of questions that

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Speaker 4: you should have answered before you just act on a subpoena.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, when it comes to ignoring subpoenas,

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Speaker 2: and that's what a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of this will be about.

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Speaker 2: Is what's going on with our government right now and

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Speaker 2: previously and what happens if you defy Congress And is

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Speaker 2: there any accountability for that or can you just sit

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Speaker 2: on your hands say nope.

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Speaker 1: But there have been some very.

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Speaker 2: Famous cases in the past, you know, fifteen years or

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Speaker 2: so where subpoenas have been ignored, starting well, not starting

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Speaker 2: with but we can start with Eric Holder, Attorney General

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Speaker 2: for Barack Obama.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that was a big one.

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Speaker 2: That was part of the Operation the Fast and Furious

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Speaker 2: scandal scandal.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was definitely a scandal. From what I remember,

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Speaker 4: it involved like secret gun sales or else. Some guns

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Speaker 4: were led out into the community to be traced to

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Speaker 4: see who they went. To and one of them ended

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Speaker 4: up being used to murder an ice officer, I believe well.

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Speaker 2: Attorney General Eric Holder refused, under direction of Obama, to

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Speaker 2: answer that subpoena, and he became the first sitting cabinet

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Speaker 2: member to be voted in contempt of Congress.

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Speaker 3: Oh was that right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And you know you're like, oh, what happens in well,

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Speaker 2: three and a half years later a judge ruled that

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Speaker 2: he did not have the right to defy Congress, and

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Speaker 2: by that time there was a new Congress, and it

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Speaker 2: was a mood point.

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Speaker 4: That's a really big big thing to remember. Is like

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Speaker 4: an eempt of Congress vote where you are supposedly in

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Speaker 4: trouble for ignoring a subpoena, only lasts as long as

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Speaker 4: that session of Congress.

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Speaker 1: Unless the next session of Congress wants to pick it up.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but then they have to hold another vote. And

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Speaker 4: the chances that that the that there has been a

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Speaker 4: change in leadership potentially in that Congress is you know,

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Speaker 4: high enough that if you if you make it through

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Speaker 4: that Congress, you know going into recess, you you're probably

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Speaker 4: going to get away with it. And I mean that's

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Speaker 4: par for the course. It wasn't just Eric Holder who

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Speaker 4: got away with it. Harriet Myers, who was a White

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Speaker 4: House counsel to George W.

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Speaker 3: Bush.

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Speaker 4: There was like a mass political firing of US attorneys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and two thousand and eight yep.

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Speaker 4: And she and I think chief of staff at the time,

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Speaker 4: Joshua Bolton, were both held in contempt of Congress. And man,

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Speaker 4: if you look up, like you know, follow up reporting

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Speaker 4: on this stuff, it's like, you know, while it's going on,

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Speaker 4: they're like they could face fines, jail time. Finally I

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Speaker 4: found some follow up as like nothing nothing happened, Absolutely

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Speaker 4: nothing happened. There was no legal ramifications, there were no

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Speaker 4: personal ramifications. There was nothing happened whatsoever to Harriet Myers

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Speaker 4: or Joshua Bolton or Eric Holder for just saying Congress,

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Speaker 4: the United States Congress, go sit on it, yeah, which

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Speaker 4: is essentially what you're saying when you ignore a subpoenas yeah.

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Speaker 2: And because of this, you remember Representative darryl Isa probably

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Speaker 2: by name. He was involved in trying to get Eric Holder,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the room, and he was so mad

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Speaker 2: he sponsored or intro to bill to strengthen subpoena enforcement power,

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Speaker 2: and it died in the Senate, and before we I

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Speaker 2: think we're about to take a break.

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Speaker 1: Before we do that, though, we should.

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Speaker 2: Mention that currently White House Counsel Don McGann has refused

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Speaker 2: to testify or refused to answer his subpoena under direct

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Speaker 2: order of Trump, and right now he's being sued by

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Speaker 2: the House right of August.

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Speaker 4: And he in particular provides an unusual situation because at

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Speaker 4: least with Harriet Myers, or with Joshua Bolton, or with

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Speaker 4: Eric Holder, when they were directed by the President at

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Speaker 4: the time not to submit to that subpoena from Congress,

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Speaker 4: they were part of the president's staff. Don McGann was

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Speaker 4: instructed not to not to cooperate with the subpoena after

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Speaker 4: he had already left civil service. He was no longer

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Speaker 4: part of the executive branch. So that definitely makes it unusual.

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Speaker 4: But if you're sitting there and your head is popping

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Speaker 4: and you're saying, how wait, how this is Congress. How

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Speaker 4: can a president just say just ignore that subpoena and

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Speaker 4: people get away with it. There's actually a lot of

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Speaker 4: case law that's been built over the centuries that kind

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Speaker 4: of establishes that. And I say, Chuck, we take a break,

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Speaker 4: and then we'll dive into that after this case.

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Speaker 5: Law Josh.

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Speaker 4: So Chuck, there's something about subpoenas, whether they're issued by

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Speaker 4: Congress or by a court of law, when you get

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Speaker 4: them that a lot of people don't realize they're negotiable. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that's one really big reason to hire a lawyer is

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Speaker 4: because they it may be overly broad, it may be

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Speaker 4: kind of a phishing expedition. It may put you at

363
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Speaker 4: risk to come forward and give this testimony or to

364
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Speaker 4: hand over these documents. And if you hire a lawyer

365
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Speaker 4: and say, hey, these are the things I'm worried about,

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Speaker 4: they can go and argue to the judge like, hey,

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Speaker 4: how about we just limit this subpoena to these documents

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Speaker 4: rather than everything on my client's hard drive. Or it's

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Speaker 4: really a big hardship for my client to make it here,

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Speaker 4: and the fifteen dollars a day that the court's paying

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Speaker 4: him for coming to testify isn't actually going to cover it, So,

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Speaker 4: you know, can we negotiate a higher fee or something

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Speaker 4: like that. There's a lot of stuff that can be done,

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Speaker 4: but this is a tactic that's also used with congressional subpoenas. Too,

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Speaker 4: where say, like the executive branch will go, I think

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Speaker 4: that this is a little overly broad, but maybe we

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Speaker 4: could give you this document.

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Speaker 3: Will that satisfy you?

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Speaker 1: And then I go nope.

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Speaker 4: Sometimes I say yes, though, and part of that negotiation

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Speaker 4: comes out of this subpoena process. It's a response to it.

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Speaker 4: But none of it would have any effect whatsoever if

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Speaker 4: Congress didn't have any redress for enforcing its subpoenas. If

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Speaker 4: somebody ignores it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, technically there are fines in jail time

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Speaker 2: sort of looming. But the more I read about this stuff,

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Speaker 2: especially when it comes to Congressional oversight, the more it

388
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Speaker 2: became clear that none of that stuff really happens. It's

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Speaker 2: all just dangled out there as a means to negotiate

390
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Speaker 2: something with each other over a pretty long period of

391
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Speaker 2: time usually for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that Eric Holder thing was it was like four

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Speaker 4: years before he finally handed over the file, and I

394
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Speaker 4: think Congress had already gone out a session, you said,

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Speaker 4: And it was basically just the whole thing had died down,

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Speaker 4: which I think is basically the stalling tactic that people

397
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Speaker 4: ignore subpoenas for like that's why they're doing it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

399
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Speaker 2: So technically, if you defy Congress, the committee that issued

400
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,000
Speaker 2: that subpoena is going to vote to issue a citation,

401
00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 2: a contempt citation, and then it's got to go to

402
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 2: the full chamber to vote on it. And if that

403
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Speaker 2: goes through and it passes, which it has before, then

404
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:48,600
Speaker 2: there are three basic ways that you can prosecute that.

405
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Speaker 4: Charge, right, and each one is worthless. Yeah, pretty much

406
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,959
Speaker 4: like this is. We would never give official legal advice.

407
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Speaker 4: First of all, we're not lawyers or even trained as lawyers.

408
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Speaker 4: But from what I can tell, there's just nothing happens

409
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Speaker 4: to you if you ignore a congressional subpoena. But most

410
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,879
Speaker 4: people respond to it because I feel like the further

411
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Speaker 4: down the food chain you are, the more likely Congress

412
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Speaker 4: is to do something in retaliation to you.

413
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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's go through the three at least fine,

414
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Speaker 2: if for no other reason than pure folly. So if

415
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Speaker 2: they vote and that contempt citation goes through, it is

416
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Speaker 2: then under the control of the executive branch. And you think,

417
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Speaker 2: oh great the president or oh great the president, it's

418
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Speaker 2: really neither. It is the Justice Department, which is part

419
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Speaker 2: of the executive branch. It's up to them. To decide

420
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Speaker 2: whether or not they're going to prosecute criminally, and they're

421
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Speaker 2: going to say no. They're going to say and we'll

422
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Speaker 2: talk a lot about executive privilege coming up, but they'll

423
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Speaker 2: usually cite that and decline to prosecute, basically kind of saying,

424
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Speaker 2: you know what, we don't get involved in this stuff.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: So that is specifically when it comes to subpoenaing something

427
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Speaker 4: from the White House correct or the executive bridge. Now,

428
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Speaker 4: if Congress is being ignored by, say like the owner

429
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Speaker 4: of the Houston Astros, they can go to the DOJ

430
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Speaker 4: and say, hey, the Houston Astros baseball team owner is

431
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Speaker 4: ignoring a subpoena. We want you to go after the guy,

432
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Speaker 4: and they'll go after the guy. It's when it's executive

433
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Speaker 4: privilege that's being cited that the DOJ says, you know how,

434
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Speaker 4: it's our jurisdiction to decide whether to prosecute this stuff.

435
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Speaker 4: We're going to decline to do that because it's our

436
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Speaker 4: own people, and we're just going to consider this an

437
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Speaker 4: internal executive branch.

438
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Speaker 2: Matter Number two is the civil judgment, right, and that's

439
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 2: when you need the courts to basically enforce this. Go

440
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 2: into court and saying we need your help to enforce

441
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Speaker 2: this civil suit against somebody who's stiffed us.

442
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Speaker 4: Right, Like, you know how you can go arrest somebody

443
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Speaker 4: and put him in jail? Can you do that on

444
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Speaker 4: our behalf? Basically?

445
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Speaker 1: But this is super slow, like turtle like slow.

446
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

447
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 4: But I think the idea is that the thought that

448
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 4: maybe somewhere a couple of years down the line, there's

449
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 4: going to be a judgment against you where you're going

450
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,280
Speaker 4: to have to pay one hundred thousand dollars to Congress

451
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,800
Speaker 4: or something like that, or spend like twelve months in

452
00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 4: jail will get you to the table to negotiate you know,

453
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,840
Speaker 4: what documents they actually want or what testimony they want.

454
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just leverage, right. So the third one is

455
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,160
Speaker 2: something that isn't used anymore.

456
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 1: Really.

457
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 2: It's called inherent contempt power. It was last yused in

458
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five. And this is you know, this is

459
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: sort of the jail thing. And while there is no

460
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: capital jail, they do have a holding cell.

461
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like the sergeant at arms of the Senate

462
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,399
Speaker 4: or the House, depending on who's issuing the subpoena and

463
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 4: who voted to told you in contempt an armed officer

464
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 4: of the Congress will show up and say you're under arrest.

465
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 4: Congress says you're under arrest, you have to come with me, or,

466
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 4: as has been kind of boo bounced around lately by

467
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 4: Democrats in the House, replacing the idea of jailing somebody,

468
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 4: of arresting and jailing them with a much much stiffer

469
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 4: fine than people have traditionally faced, something more on the

470
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 4: order of I think between twenty five and two hundred

471
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 4: and fifty thousand dollars I think a day actually for

472
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 4: ignoring this kind of stuff, which we guess that would

473
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,800
Speaker 4: get people moving if they actually go through.

474
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 2: With that, yeah, I would think. So hit them in

475
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 2: the pocketbook, yeah, I.

476
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 4: Mean that hard's and it pluses the government too. So

477
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: it's like, hey, you know these tax credits you're getting,

478
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 4: were taking those away and this tax return that you

479
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 4: were expecting, we're going to hang on to that Like

480
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 4: that's this is where they could actually do something.

481
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think so.

482
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,960
Speaker 2: If it's not a congressional subpoena, if it's just like

483
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: we're talking about a regular court subpoena, it all depends

484
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,440
Speaker 2: and what jurisdiction you're in, and the presiding Chudge that's

485
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: on that case.

486
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 4: Yes, but again, because you can be arrested as a

487
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 4: matter of routine course of a court, you really should

488
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 4: respond at least to a subpoena or else. You know,

489
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,160
Speaker 4: the chances of something happening to you from a court

490
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 4: of law are much higher than Congress apparently.

491
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: Sure, so can we talk about case law?

492
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 4: Yes, finally we got all that boring stuff out of

493
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: the way.

494
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, this first one is kind of interesting. And the

495
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: way the judiciary works in this country is just super

496
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: fascinating to me. The older I get, the more I

497
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 2: read about it. I'm not becoming a legal wonk by.

498
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 3: Any means illegal legal, but I get.

499
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 1: It, Like, you know, I get it that people are

500
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: super into this kind of thing.

501
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 3: I hadn't realized you've gotten into the judiciary.

502
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's pretty fascinating.

503
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 4: What got you into it? Just like news following the

504
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 4: news or something or uh.

505
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's just sort of reading about a case

506
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 2: like in this case from eighteen hundred, and then you

507
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: know precedent and what that means, right, and when it

508
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: shouldn't matter and should matter.

509
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 3: Like the one from eighteen hundred you're talking about is

510
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: US v. Cooper.

511
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Thomas Cooper, who was a scientist and an attorney

512
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,720
Speaker 2: and a thorn in the side of President John Adams

513
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 2: right in a big way.

514
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

515
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 4: So, in I think seventeen ninety eight, Yeah, the US

516
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 4: passed the Sedition Act, which said that it's illegal to

517
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 4: criticize the US government.

518
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

519
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 4: Unfortunately, when Thomas Jefferson came into office, he said, we're

520
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 4: gonna kind of do away with that and keep it

521
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 4: away forever as much as we can. But there was

522
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 4: a guy named Thomas Cooper, who, like you said, was

523
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 4: a thorn in the side of John Adams, and he

524
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,400
Speaker 4: was arrested and prosecuted during a time when the Sedition

525
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 4: Act was still in effect, and he lost his case.

526
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 4: But the way that it relates to subpoenas an ignoring

527
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 4: subpoena is specifically the executive branch ignoring subpoenas. Is that

528
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 4: all the way back in eighteen hundred, when the United

529
00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 4: States was just a couple of decades old, this guy,

530
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 4: Thomas Cooper, tried to subpoena John Adams to come testify

531
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,920
Speaker 4: as part of this case, and the court said, we

532
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 4: don't really subpoena presidents we've decided. Yeah, and that's not

533
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 4: a precedent for the rest of history. It basically said

534
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 4: presidents are accepted from the goings on in normal court stuff,

535
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 4: even when they're directly related to the case.

536
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 3: They don't have to.

537
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: Come right, But that same case is said, but you

538
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 2: can subpoena it's someone from Congress.

539
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: That's a big one too.

540
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,880
Speaker 2: That was a big one Cooper. It didn't work out

541
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: for Cooper, like you said, he was convicted. So none

542
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: of that mattered except for establishing this president president president.

543
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 3: You got it in this case. You could say it

544
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 3: either way.

545
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 1: I guess. So. So that moves us on to seven

546
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,879
Speaker 1: years later US v. Burr.

547
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: This is John Marshall. Chief Justice John Marshall headed this

548
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 2: one up and basically this had to deal with President

549
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: Thomas Jefferson saying, hey, they want you to come to

550
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,200
Speaker 2: provide these documents.

551
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: It was a Doozy's teacom, right, du says, c's doc's

552
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:22,919
Speaker 1: Ducy's teacum.

553
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: And Jefferson was like, hey, here are some of those

554
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: documents that you want, and they're like, but where the

555
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: rest of them? He was like, you know, I'm not

556
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: going to give you those and I'm also not going

557
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: to show up because you know what, I got to

558
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 2: be presidenting.

559
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm the executive branch is too powerful and too

560
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 4: or no, too important. It's the only branch that's supposed

561
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 4: to be open twenty four seven, three sixty five. Yeah,

562
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 4: and I just can't get away, like I'm my work

563
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 4: is too important to come be part of this, and

564
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 4: that gets think.

565
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: Gets less and less able to prove these days, I think, yeah,

566
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: for sure.

567
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: Like you could take off, I have a day, right,

568
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 4: you got a BlackBerry, you can definitely email, keep tabs

569
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 4: on work while you're gone.

570
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 3: But yeah, so I thought the same thing too.

571
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 4: That does not hold water, but it does set a

572
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 4: president for the president, like you were saying too in

573
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: those two cases basically say together again, the president doesn't

574
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: have to come be part of this, and executive privilege

575
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 4: is I guess where this came from from this particular

576
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,359
Speaker 4: case where it's saying like, no, the president doesn't have

577
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 4: to have anything to do with this, and the president's

578
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,640
Speaker 4: documents or the president's business and can't be subpoenaed because

579
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: we're going to call this executive privilege.

580
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: Right, And there are five basically five types generally of

581
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 2: executive privilege that have been used thus far. One is

582
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: presidential communications. Number two is the deliberative process. Number three

583
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 2: is attorney client communications, Big one. Fourth one is law

584
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: enforcement investigations. And the fifth one is anything that's sensitive

585
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 2: in terms of military or national security or diplomatic relations,

586
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 2: that kind of thing.

587
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 4: And that's the one in particular that has been upheld

588
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 4: over the years.

589
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 3: It's the idea that.

590
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 4: Like, there are secrets that the White House has that

591
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 4: it just need to be kept or else people are

592
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 4: going to lose their lives or else diplomatic ties are

593
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 4: going to be upset, that kind of stuff, and so

594
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 4: those should be protected under executive privilege. But the rest

595
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 4: of the stuff has been subject to scrutiny over the years,

596
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 4: for sure.

597
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, because obviously an executive a president is going to

598
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: try and draw that privilege as broadly as possible.

599
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure.

600
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 4: And that's especially been the case ever since Nixon onward,

601
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 4: at least, where there's this idea called the unitary executive theory,

602
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 4: which is basically, like, you know, these are separate branches

603
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 4: of government, and the executive branch is in charge of

604
00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: everything to do with the executive branch has, it's none

605
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 4: of Congress's business. And the executive is basically this extraordinarily

606
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 4: powerful single person, and that's been attempted to be invoked

607
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 4: and prove time and time again in throwing off Congressional oversight.

608
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 4: And that seems to be kind of what we're in

609
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: the midst of right now is a really big test

610
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 4: of this unitary executive theory in saying, like, no, not

611
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: only just the president, but the entire president staff and

612
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 4: in fact, the entire executive branch can ignore subpoenas from

613
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 4: Congress because Congress doesn't have any authority over the executive branch.

614
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: And that's kind of what we're witnessing right now. And

615
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 4: on the one hand, well, really there's really just one hand.

616
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 4: The great value of having an executive like almost a

617
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 4: well a unitary executive is that if you're a vested

618
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 4: interest or a very powerful group, you've only got one

619
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 4: person to change over to your side, rather than five hundred.

620
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 3: Of them, you know what I mean. Yeah, So it's

621
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: very dangerous.

622
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 4: It also very much flies in the face of the

623
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 4: three branches of government and the checks and balances that

624
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 4: each one's supposed to have over the other. Yes, because

625
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 4: part of Congress's role is what's called congressional oversight.

626
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: Yep.

627
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 4: That says we're responsible for making sure you're not getting

628
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 4: out of control the president. The executive branch has veto

629
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,880
Speaker 4: power saying Congress, you guys are nuts, this is no

630
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 4: law that should be passed.

631
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,959
Speaker 3: I'm going to say no to this law. And then

632
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,400
Speaker 3: the judiciary has judicial review.

633
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: They get to say this law is unjust or this

634
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 4: executive agency's action is illegal. And by doing this, these

635
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 4: three branches keep one another from getting too strong. And

636
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 4: the unitary executive theory flies in the face of that

637
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 4: and says, no, the executive branch is more powerful than.

638
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: All of them. The other two don't have checks over them,

639
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 3: and let's just see what happens from here.

640
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: That's right. Should we talk about Watergate?

641
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: Yeah?

642
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 2: So everyone, we should do a full episode on Watergate.

643
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 2: I think I've said that before. I agree, but everyone

644
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: knows what happened there. President Nixon was involved in some

645
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: hinky activities and congressional committees. There was one special prosecutor

646
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: in particular named Archibald Cox, who said, wait a minute,

647
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: you've got these secret tapes. You've been taping people in

648
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: the Oval office turn them over. Here's a subpoena. We

649
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 2: demand that you turn that over along with some other stuff.

650
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: And Nan said, you demand, and we want you to

651
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: come here and testify as well. And of course Nixon

652
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 2: was like, I don't think that stuff's going to happen.

653
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 2: Here you go, here are some of these tapes. Just

654
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 2: ignore all the parts where it seems like it was

655
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 2: heavily edited and sounds real funny because someone who was

656
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: just in the room is no longer in the room,

657
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: and there are non sequiturs all over the place.

658
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 4: It's like the videotape of the guy who got the

659
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 4: high score in Donkey Kong.

660
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, you know what I mean.

661
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 2: But executive privilege was what he claimed he was protected by.

662
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 2: So this went to the Supreme Court in nineteen seventy

663
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: four with United States v. Nixon, and Chief Justice Burger's

664
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: opinion cited everything from Justice Marshall's Marbury v. Madison to

665
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: the one we just talked about, United States v. BurrH

666
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: And basically, they're walking a fine line there with the

667
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: judiciary because they're saying, listen, the president needs to be

668
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 2: confidential and protected when executing these duties, these constitutional duties

669
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,040
Speaker 2: on the one hand, but on the other hand, due

670
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: process of law is an important thing and that's what

671
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: we're in charge of. So they kind of ended up

672
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: wanting to protect each of the branch's needs.

673
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 4: It seems like, yeah, and I think they did a

674
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: very good job. And the fact that it was unanimous.

675
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 4: I think Rehnquist was involved with some of the people involved,

676
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 4: so he recused himself from voting, but it was unanimous

677
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 4: eight to zero vote saying no, you got to hand

678
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: the tapes over because we don't think that you're just

679
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 4: trying to protect like intelligent secrets or military secrets or

680
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 4: diplomatic secrets. We think you're just basically using the cover

681
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 4: of executive privilege to cover your own behind exactly, and

682
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 4: that does not supersede due process in a court of law,

683
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: which is going on over here with the trials of

684
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 4: these guys who broke into the Watergate. So you got

685
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 4: to hand over the tapes, and in doing so, like

686
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 4: you said, he cited another case Marbury v. Madison, And

687
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,399
Speaker 4: that's a really really important case in here too, which

688
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 4: I think we should talk about starting now.

689
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to mention another quick thing before you

690
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 2: dive into Marbury another case usv.

691
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: At and T.

692
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: This just basically laid out that the courts are only

693
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 2: going to get involved if everyone really tried in good

694
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: faith to work it out beforehand.

695
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Basically said, we're the last stop here.

696
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 2: Don't just go run into the Supreme Court or the

697
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 2: courts in general to figure this stuff out for you.

698
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 4: Right, Although I think the Constitution says that the Supreme

699
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 4: Court are the ones who are supposed to be running

700
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 4: the show when it comes to like a high enough official.

701
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 4: A case regarding a high enough official, Oh.

702
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, all At and T.

703
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 2: The case said was you have to really try to

704
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 2: work it out amongst yourself before it even gets to us.

705
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: Oh gotcha. Okay, yeah, I gotcha. I see, I see

706
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 3: what you're saying. Yeah yeah.

707
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 1: So good faith, of course, is broadly defined too.

708
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:38,879
Speaker 4: So in Marborie versus Madison, that one basically said, hey,

709
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: there's this one component here.

710
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 3: Yes, the.

711
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 4: We've established that the legislative branch Congress can issue subpoenas

712
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 4: and that the executive branch can exert executive privilege and

713
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: say no toe some subpoenas under some cases. But we're

714
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 4: also going to say In US v. Nixon in nineteen

715
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 4: seventy four, that the court can say, no, your right

716
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,360
Speaker 4: to secrecy is overshadowed by a right to do process

717
00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 4: in most cases.

718
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 3: But the one that really says at the center of.

719
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 4: This is the judiciary, and that the judiciary has a

720
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 4: right to decide cases where the legislative and executive branches

721
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 4: are in dispute. Is this Marbury versus Madison case from

722
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 4: I think eighteen oh four, and it was, from what

723
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 4: I understand, a masterstroke of legal eagleness by Justice John Marshall.

724
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

725
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 2: So is the long and short of that one that

726
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: Secretary of Saint James Madison he was trying to withhold

727
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 2: the commission of William Marbury.

728
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: Was that the case?

729
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, because the outgoing Adams had packed the courts with

730
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 4: friendly judges, the commissions had not all been mailed out,

731
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 4: and Madison was withholding some.

732
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 2: And they basically said, listen, man, you can't do this

733
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: like it is your job. You shall commission all the

734
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 2: officers of the United States. It's like right there in

735
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: black and white, and you lose, right.

736
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 3: So that was one part of it.

737
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 4: But what Marshall figured out and what made this a

738
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 4: master stroke of legal legalness, is that the there was

739
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 4: a something called a writ of mandamus, which basically says

740
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 4: you have to do this, which had been granted to

741
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court in the like an Act in seventeen

742
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 4: eighty nine. Marshall said, so, yes, Madison has to give

743
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:34,720
Speaker 4: this over like, this is just part of his duties,

744
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 4: and he's following a law that Congress made, so he's

745
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 4: subject to that law as a minister of the government.

746
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 4: But at the same time, the rit of mandamus power

747
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 4: that's a Supreme Court has been given is unconstitutional. We're

748
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 4: not in a position to issue a rid of mandamus

749
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 4: because under the Constitution we're not given that right. And

750
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 4: so in doing that, he established the Supreme Court as

751
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 4: the interpreter of what law is constitutional and what isn't right.

752
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 4: And he did that by saying, this law that gives

753
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 4: us this amazing power is unconstitutional. So he did it

754
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: by taking power away from the Supreme Court. But in

755
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 4: doing so, he gave the Supreme Court a tremendous a

756
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 4: tremendous advantage over the centuries in interpreting what law is

757
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 4: constitutional and what isn't and placing itself as the arbiter

758
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 4: of disputes between the legislative branch and the executive branch.

759
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is I mean, that's a lot of what

760
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 2: the Supreme Court decides is constitutionality.

761
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 3: And it all comes from that eighteen and oh four case.

762
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: Landmark Legal Legal. Should we take another break?

763
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: Sure?

764
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,840
Speaker 2: Man, all right, we'll take another break and talk a

765
00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 2: little bit about a little bit more about Nixon and

766
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 2: what some other presidents have done when slapped with a

767
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 2: sabena right after that.

768
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 4: Jaw.

769
00:38:53,280 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 2: So we all know what happened to Nixon, what the

770
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 2: Justice did rule that, Hey, dude, you got to comply

771
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: with this Deucey's tectim here and you got to turn

772
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: over these tapes.

773
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 1: So Nixon, uh turned over tapes.

774
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:25,520
Speaker 4: He did, and it all worked out in the end.

775
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 4: Everybody's like, this is what you were protecting. This is fine, man,

776
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 4: stay president for a couple more terms. And he did,

777
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 4: and the world was a better place.

778
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: For it, that's right. Flash forward to uh to Bill Clinton.

779
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: That was okay.

780
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 1: So he said, hey, listen, man.

781
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 3: What goes on and that's much better.

782
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: What happens in the Oval office stays in the oval office.

783
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 2: Executive privilege. They're like even that stuff. And he said, well,

784
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's his executive privilege. Harika Panke falls

785
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 2: under executive privileg So he said, I have executive unity,

786
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 2: I have that privilege, and neither me nor my aides

787
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: have to respond to these subpoenas. And then he fell

788
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:12,240
Speaker 2: into line eventually.

789
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 3: Due Gingrich got him into line.

790
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and largely because of US v. Nixon.

791
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 2: They said, you know what, you can't stand by this

792
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 2: broad executive privilege, stand behind this wall that you've built.

793
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: You're going to have to comply. And he did eventually right.

794
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 4: Which is traditionally what happens, like the Congress issues subpoenas,

795
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,840
Speaker 4: is an executive branch ignores it. The Congress holds the

796
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 4: executive branch and contempt, and the judiciary comes in and

797
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 4: almost always says, no, you're over exerting your executive privilege

798
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:50,560
Speaker 4: to what they're saying.

799
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, which you know that gives me hope because in

800
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: the past president has been set that due process wins

801
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: out over executive privilege kind of across the board, it

802
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: seems like, but that that.

803
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 4: Only holds as long as two things are upheld. One

804
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 4: that the Supreme Court is an independent body, regardless of

805
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 4: who appointed the judges, and then two if the as

806
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 4: long as the executive branch recognizes the authority of the

807
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 4: Supreme Court.

808
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 3: This is where we are starting.

809
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,320
Speaker 4: Like some people can see far enough along this horizon

810
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 4: that hey, this path we're heading down right now, there's

811
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 4: a point where we could reach where they could be.

812
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 4: There could be a Supreme Court decision that says, yes,

813
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 4: executive branch, you have to hand over these aids for testimony.

814
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,800
Speaker 4: They have to come testify about you know, Russian interference

815
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 4: in the twenty sixteen election or this call between the

816
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 4: president and the Ukrainian president, and the executive branch still

817
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 4: says no. And that is the point that everyone says,

818
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 4: we have no idea what happens?

819
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 3: Then we have no idea.

820
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 4: Do you go arrest these you know, the secretary of

821
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 4: the Treasury, Do you go arrest these cabinet members? This

822
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 4: has never been done before, Like what remedy do you

823
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,800
Speaker 4: really have? And that's where that's where we are with

824
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 4: testing out this unitary executive theory. How far can you

825
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 4: kick the the kind of unwritten rules of the constitution. Well,

826
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 4: there's lots of written rules with constitution, but also like

827
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 4: the the unwritten rules and procedures that kind of have

828
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 4: have guided all of this for so long. What happens

829
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 4: when those things just stop being recognized as valid?

830
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 3: What do you do?

831
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: Well?

832
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 2: I don't know because in the in the past, through

833
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 2: our history, and this is on both sides of the

834
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: of the Isle, Democrats and Republicans have always not successfully,

835
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 2: but they've always tried to argue that court should not

836
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: get in the subpoena battles and should not get involved

837
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:07,479
Speaker 2: with this executive privileged claim right.

838
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 4: And in particular, Trump's latest Trump's Legal Council's latest position,

839
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 4: which I think came out in September of this year,

840
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 4: is it's a doozy.

841
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:22,080
Speaker 3: It basically takes And here's here's.

842
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 4: Something we need to remember here, Like this is not

843
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 4: brand new with Donald Trump, right, Like if you if

844
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 4: you can't stand Donald Trump, this is this is his

845
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: White House. His administration is building on stuff that previous

846
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,400
Speaker 4: presidents have built on both Democrats and Republicans alike. There

847
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 4: has been a real push, basically since Nixon, to to

848
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 4: instill as much power into the presidency and the executive

849
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 4: branch as possible, and this is an extreme version of that,

850
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 4: but it's still kind of following the same path. But

851
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: what they're what they're doing is more aggressive than what

852
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 4: previous administrations have done. And they're basically saying saying this,

853
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 4: if you subpoena us the executive branch, if you the

854
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 4: Congress subpoena one of our people, any of our people,

855
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 4: for any reason whatsoever, the President can say, no, do

856
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 4: not respond to that subpoena, do not go before Congress,

857
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 4: do not hand over those documents. I'm the president, I'm

858
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 4: ordering you to. Congress can issue a rid of contempt

859
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 4: or find the person in contempt, but that's it.

860
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 3: That's where it ends. Because the president can say, well,

861
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 3: this is an inter branch dispute between the legislative branch

862
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,360
Speaker 3: and the executive branch. And because the.

863
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 4: Judiciary can't be drafted or shouldn't be drafted in to

864
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 4: solve these disputes, that's all it will remain is an

865
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 4: inner branch dispute, and the Supreme Court really has no

866
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 4: purview in deciding these cases. And when you have that,

867
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 4: then that means that the executive branch has been removed

868
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 4: from the oversight of law law. It becomes above the law,

869
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 4: The law no longer applies to it, and so whatever

870
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,840
Speaker 4: the president wants to do. Whatever the President directs his

871
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 4: or her agencies to do is de facto legal, just

872
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,840
Speaker 4: because the president and the executive branch are not subject

873
00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 4: to the laws of the land, including rulings by the

874
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 4: highest court in the United States. That's what the latest

875
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 4: argument is sting us up for.

876
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, this is what the Justice Department.

877
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 2: There was a great article in the Washington Post by

878
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,760
Speaker 2: Harry Littman called the Justice Department's outlandish and arrogant position

879
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: on congressional subpoenas, And this is from the article. It said,

880
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: according to the Justice Department, there is no constitutional or

881
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 2: statutory basis for a congressional committee to try to enforce

882
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 2: his subpoenas in the federal courts where the executive branch

883
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 2: has decided not to do so.

884
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: Right, So basically, yeah, they said no, and so they

885
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: said no.

886
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:57,240
Speaker 4: And all of this arose from an opinion regarding Trump's

887
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 4: tax returns, I believe.

888
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's sort of where the whole thing got started.

889
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, where the Treasury Secretary, Stephen Mnushin said no, we're

890
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 4: not doing that, and Congress said, well, we're holding you

891
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 4: in contempt. And then the Legal Office of Legal counsel

892
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 4: from the White House issued this opinion, and I mean

893
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 4: it's a doozy, but it's also saying like, what are

894
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 4: you guys going to do?

895
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 3: What can you do? And that's that's the that's the

896
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 3: big question now.

897
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: Well, and it makes you wonder what would have happened

898
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: if darryl Isa's bill had gone through? That makes subpoenas

899
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: super enforceable, right, because you know, we've seen it on

900
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 2: again on both sides of the aisle where one one

901
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 2: political party will get mad and and vote something in

902
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: that will come back to sting them later on.

903
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: Right on the hind end, it is.

904
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,879
Speaker 4: But also you also can't help but wonder, like will

905
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 4: like is a republicans loyalty to Congress greater than the

906
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 4: Republican's loyalty to the executive branch. It's like, you know,

907
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 4: in any restaurant, there's tension between the white staff and

908
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 4: the kitchen staff, but they're all working at the same restaurant.

909
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 4: They're all trying to do the same thing, which is

910
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 4: get high quality, nourishing meals out to the patrons who

911
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 4: are citizens like you and me, Right, but there's still tension.

912
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 4: You're not doing it fast enough. Or you you burn

913
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 4: these fries or something like that. But we benefit from

914
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 4: that tension, We the patrons of this restaurant that we

915
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 4: call America.

916
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: That's right, Well, what happened the end of the day,

917
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 2: Everyone just goes behind the restaurant and smokes a joint

918
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: by the dumpster.

919
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 4: You know, maybe that would make our Congress or our

920
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 4: government work more efficiently if the executive branch and the

921
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,239
Speaker 4: legislative branch and the judicial branch all got together and

922
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:44,400
Speaker 4: burned a dooby together by the grease s trap, right exactly.

923
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 4: I don't even remember what my analogy was meant to insert.

924
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:53,120
Speaker 4: But we it's fine, but we like we are witnessing

925
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 4: some historical stuff right now that that is not normal

926
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 4: at all. I mean, like from water stuff and that

927
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 4: I'm not even relating to impeachment proceedings. I'm just saying, like,

928
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 4: this level of ignoring congressional subpoenas may be unprecedented, and

929
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: if not, then the closest historical president we have is

930
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 4: the Watergate scandal. Yeah, but I think Congress is one

931
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 4: recourse to say, that's fine, that's fine, minution, you just

932
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 4: ignore us. We're going over here as Congress, and we

933
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 4: are altering this our ability to jail people to say no, actually,

934
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,239
Speaker 4: we can find you two hundred and fifty thousand dollars

935
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:35,800
Speaker 4: a day and we will do it. That could be

936
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 4: the leverage that gets people to actually comply with these subpoenas.

937
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 4: But we'll find out, because if Congress has to actually

938
00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: pass a law to do that, the president has veto

939
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 4: power over that well.

940
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 2: And there are also all sorts of other things have

941
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 2: nothing to do with this, that Congress uses as leverage

942
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 2: or negotiation tactics, like, hey, do you want us to

943
00:48:56,000 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: push through some of these appointees or should we just

944
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: keep stalling forever? All kinds of that stuff is on

945
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: the table. But when you have a president that comes

946
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: out in January and says, you know what, I don't

947
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,640
Speaker 2: mind stall all you want. I like the term acting

948
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: because that gives me more leeway. Then all of a sudden,

949
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 2: that's not leverage anymore.

950
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:18,879
Speaker 3: You got anything else?

951
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:20,800
Speaker 1: No, I'm very curious to see what happens with this

952
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: McGan case. Probably nothing, I am too.

953
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 3: Will it be the crumbling of our democracy? Who knows?

954
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: We'll find out in a few years.

955
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 4: If you want to know more about subpoenas, we'll just

956
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 4: go look it up and if you get a subpoena yourself.

957
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 3: Get a lawyer. Don't be stupid. And since I said

958
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,839
Speaker 3: don't be stupid, friends, it's time for a listener. Mayw.

959
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:47,360
Speaker 2: I'm gonna this is about Obama's healthcare. I got a

960
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: bunch of stuff about this. I didn't realize I made

961
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 2: a prediction. Oh okay, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that one's

962
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:55,320
Speaker 2: kind of been sitting in the in the coffers. Okay, guys,

963
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: about fifteen months ago I start of my journey through

964
00:49:58,160 --> 00:49:58,439
Speaker 2: the stuff.

965
00:49:58,440 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 1: You should know.

966
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: Archives have been on the steady campaign about twelve to

967
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 2: sixteen episodes a week.

968
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 3: That's healthy.

969
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: Wow, why I'm writing though?

970
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 2: Ten years ago Chuck made a bold prediction and the rumors,

971
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,440
Speaker 2: the myths and truths behind Obama's healthcare plan episodes.

972
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: Didn't we do like four of those?

973
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 3: We did? Yeah? I think we did four.

974
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 2: You're right, But this one was specifically about that episode, Chuck,

975
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 2: I said, call me in ten years if there are

976
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: no more private insurance companies, because that was one of

977
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,279
Speaker 2: the big knocks on it. It's like, this is going

978
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 2: to do away with private insurance, and I'll buy you

979
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:39,320
Speaker 2: a beer Chuck legitimately said I'm on record, and he

980
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 2: extended the bet to anyone out there. Now, that statement

981
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: was more of a gentleman's bet than a legal promise, however,

982
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,879
Speaker 2: that is more binding in my opinion. Nonetheless, I would

983
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: like to congratulate you, Chuck. I was getting worried there

984
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 2: for a second on the expiration of that term and

985
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 2: that promisory statement. That could have been a pretty pricey liability.

986
00:50:57,719 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: That things turned out little differently a.

987
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 3: Million Chuck, every single one of our listeners would have

988
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 3: written in and asked for it. I know.

989
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: That is from Jack Simmons.

990
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 4: Nice going, Jack, and welcome to the club. We're glad

991
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 4: you've found us, and even more so that you like us,

992
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 4: so we'll do our best.

993
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 2: To keep it up for you and everybody else that

994
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,320
Speaker 2: emails a couple of months, although he's probably forgotten about it.

995
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 3: Sorry, that's right, he's moved on to podsave America. That's right.

996
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 4: Well, if you want to get in touch with us,

997
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 4: like Jack did, you can go on to stuff youshould

998
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 4: know dot com check out our social links there. You

999
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 4: can also send us an email, wrap it up, spank

1000
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 4: it on the bottom and send it off to stuff

1001
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 4: podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

1002
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

1003
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:48,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1004
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.